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Dear Lvivske, your last comment reflects a lack of neutrality in your approach to editing the article. Please, follow the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|BLP Wiki rules]]: [[Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]], [[Verifiability|Verifiability]]. |
Dear Lvivske, your last comment reflects a lack of neutrality in your approach to editing the article. Please, follow the [[Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons|BLP Wiki rules]]: [[Neutral point of view|Neutral point of view]], [[Verifiability|Verifiability]]. |
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You are trying to turn this article into arena for political debate. Do not forget, that а person who harms another's reputation may be referred to as a [[Defamation|defamer]]. --'''[[User:Komul|Komul]]''' <small>([[User talk:Komul|talk]])</small> 11:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC) |
You are trying to turn this article into arena for political debate. Do not forget, that а person who harms another's reputation may be referred to as a [[Defamation|defamer]]. --'''[[User:Komul|Komul]]''' <small>([[User talk:Komul|talk]])</small> 11:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC) |
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:Thank you [[User:Komul|Komul]] for bringing this YouTube Channel to the article [http://www.youtube.com/user/OlexandraOrekhova]. It seems like someone is working very closely to the subject in question. [[User:Narking|Närking]] ([[User talk:Narking|talk]]) 10:05, 20 August 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 10:05, 20 August 2011
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Ukraine Stub‑class | ||||||||||
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Why are you so intent on pushing the point of view that this man is a criminal when he has never been charged with a crime?
- Hi. First of all, let me thank you for contributing to Wikipedia on such an underdeveloped topic as Ukraine. Your input has been reasonable, although breaking some encyclopedia rules. I think I did my best to keep your info and present your POV restyled. Recently, I added links to the sources explaining the wide-spread image of Mr.Akhmetov as a gangster. Judging by the fact that you've deleted your own above-posted statement, we finally coming to an agreement :)
- However, please don't blank any pages again unless it is YOUR . Talking about your pages, I invite to become a full-scale Wikipedian with a username, signed posts and other info that would help interacting with you. Best wishes, Ukrained 23:17, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
Rada Member
Reminder note to me for when article protection from editing stops on October 26, 2010: Akhmetov is member of Rada since 2006. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 02:36, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Disputed information?
There seems to be an averse reaction by at least one editor in regards to Akhmetov's connections to organized crime. What, if any, are the drawbacks from these reports that constitute "libel"? From what I see they are mentioned in government reports and academic journals, so it's very much a documented part of his biography, like it or not. Comments?--Львівське (talk) 03:42, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
- He is widely reported to have ties to organized crime - this sentence has been deleted as still seems to be poorly sourced; being claimed the point of view of majority, still though needs to substantiate it by more convincing sources. Only two references were provided, one is for Kyivpost paragraph redirecting to a dead link[1] , the other link seems to belong to a category of lnks to be avoided due to the fact it requires payment[2] . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orekhova (talk • contribs) 07:39, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Page protection
When one of the alleged "unverified libels" is the addition of a scholarly journal as a source, it's pretty clear which version of the page in the dispute to protect. To the editor(s) attempting to remove the content, please explain, on this talk page, how the cited sources are flawed. If discussion yields consensus to remove them, then they can be removed. —C.Fred (talk) 05:04, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
And just for the record, here is the quote from the page cited from Post-Soviet Affairs:
- Renat Akhmetov, the richest Ukrainian oligarch and one of the informal leaders of the Party of Regions, had to leave Ukraine for some time after the “Orange Revolution” to avoid an investigation into his alleged role in organized crime in the Donetsk region. In 2005, Borys Kolesnikov, a rich businessman and a friend of Renat Akhmetov since the their alleged involvement in organized crime in the late 1980s and early 1990s and his close associate in the Party of Regions, was arrested by the Orange government on charges of extortion and conspiracy to assassinate a rival Donetsk businessman. In 2005, Yushchenko had initiated the successful reversal of Renat Akhmetov and Viktor Pinchuk’s Kuchma-backed non-competitive privatization of Kryvorizhstal, the largest Ukrainian steel mill (which later sold for $4.7 billion). However, Renat Akhmetov’s political influence rose significantly after the investigations against him and Borys Kolesnikov were dropped, and the Party of Regions formed the government in August 2006.
Just to make clear that nothing is being misconstrued or a POV is being pushed on this matter. --Львівське (talk) 05:14, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
Interesting article for future editing:
here. — Mariah-Yulia • Talk to me! 03:03, 17 December 2010 (UTC) and regarding Master3241's accusations of libel, here--Львівське (talk) 09:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
A reliable source?
if you cite an allegedly official report of Ministry of Internal Affairs, why would not you provide a link to this report stored at the official website of the Ministry, instead of having referred to the website of The Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP), which is an investigative journalism program and by no means is the official source of Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orekhova (talk • contribs) 06:21, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
mind your POV, please
neither is any reliable English-language source provided, nor the Wiki's NPOV policy is observed. The word "thug" is offensive and endorses a particular point of view by an individual journalist and can be considered as a biased statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orekhova (talk • contribs) 11:20, 3 June 2011 (UTC)
- The machine-translated quote is "Akhmetov's past is also somewhat obscure. According to its officials, he 'made a lot of money playing poker' in the years preceding the collapse of the Soviet Union. Already the journalist Serhiy Kuzin, author of Donetsk Mafia, says the billionaire would have worked like the mafia thug, which will execute the orders of several people."[3] Is there a Portuguese speaker in the house? I'm wondering if "strongman" might be the better English approximation of the term, but I'd like that confirmed by someone who's good with the language to make sure that's what the writer of the article means (the article being cited was not written by Kuzin). —C.Fred (talk) 00:16, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
- It was not the incorrect translation that was referred to, but the appropriateness of labeling such controversial names to a public figure, without even backing it by reliable third-party sources, which is contrary to Wiki policies as for Biographies of living persons and Neutral point of view.Orekhova (talk) 09:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
- Everything in the article has been backed up fairly reliably. All of the previous accusations of "libel" were dismissed once everything was properly cited and presented in an agreed upon, neutral, manner. I don't think there's anything inappropriate with the labelling as it stands, but if one of the above synonyms works I wouldn't mind, as long as the original source's point is not skewed.--Львівське (talk) 03:42, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
- It was not the incorrect translation that was referred to, but the appropriateness of labeling such controversial names to a public figure, without even backing it by reliable third-party sources, which is contrary to Wiki policies as for Biographies of living persons and Neutral point of view.Orekhova (talk) 09:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
Mr Rinat Akhmetov was officially elected the member of Ukrainian parliament and such insinuatory statements should be backed by any official reliable secondary sources. Any official proofs of participation of Mr Rinat Akhmetov in any activities of a criminal character were neither identified, officially court-fixed nor introduced here so that Mr Akhmetov’s name is associated with any of a crime. The whole section concerning alleged links to organized crime falls within Wiki policy about attack pages due to biased statements and weak information sources. An allegedly official report of Ministry of Internal Affairs is cited yet no reference to the official Ministry website is provided; quote from Serhiy Kuzin’s Donetsk Mafia is abusing the Wiki policies re verifiability, NPOV and Biographies of living persons, as non-neutral language and statements based on rumors and personal opinion are used. In 2008, the Donetsk Region Court of Appeal declared the book by Serhiy Kuzin and Borys Penchuk Donetsk Mafia the plagiarism and ordered to pay indemnities for copyright violation to the regional weekly “Kriminal-express” A.Kuchinskiy; Borys Penchuk, the co-author of the book and Head of Anticorruption Fund, was under official accusation of Donetsk Region Prosecution Office for deliberately misleading reporting of committing offense and extortion and was sentenced to 6 years of imprisonment. [4][5] Orekhova (talk) 09:11, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
- This just reeks of corruption leading the law. I don't think we can really take what happens in Ukraine all too seriously, at least from a historical standpoint. If matters happened after the fact disputing his past that can be included, but it doesn't retroactively rewrite what has already been alleged or proven.--Львівське (talk) 03:39, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
Protected, pending constant edit warring
Guys, I have protected this page due to the constant edit warring on this page. BLP policy states that we must remove any factually incorrect, dubious, and uncited information on pages of living persons due to legal and libel concerns of the such. Information from reliable and serious sources can be mentioned; again, we should be careful not to misuse this ability and not use any unverifiable sources or speculation.
Don't edit war and rather constructively edit the page, providing reliable sources for anything that we state in this article otherwise it must be removed as per BLP policy. If anything let's create a sandboxed version that is compliant with Wikipedia policy, addresses all of our concerns, and is properly attributed on this page here.
Scouring the internet online for a little while, I have found two such sources, both of which qualify as RS;
- the OCCRP (here) "Rinat Akhmetov, the country’s richest man and member of parliament, won the judgment despite being mentioned in a report by the Chief department on organized crime titled, “Overview of the Most Dangerous Organized Crime Structures in Ukraine.” It listed him and hundreds of others. The report lists..."
- The Nation (here) "Shortly after the Orange Revolution, a murder investigation was launched against the country's richest oligarch, Rinat Akhmetov, Yanukovich's main backer. Akhmetov fled the country. In exile in Monaco, he turned to..."
Both are known and reliable publications. These can be used and referenced in the article, however we must be careful not to imply anything that is not true, just to state what is known based upon reliable sources that we may come across and properly cite and reference them as such, again following proper BLP policy.
Other internet sources that I have come across have only provided *allegations that Akhmetov participated in organized crime without persecution (which is true, he was never officially indicted on any charges). Again, these allegations must be cited and referenced with reliable sources (newspaper articles, *official reports, etc). Would be beneficial if we can find a proper newspaper articles from RS such as Korrespondent or Zerkalo Nedeli, although I am sure they are just as cautious of publishing potentially untrue information like we are with our BLP policy. --ddima/talk 21:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just in case, to avoid violation of BLP policy, I have edited out the disputed information <!-- --> like so until the issue is resolved here. There is a citation which is a deadlink, unless it can be found elsewhere, we cannot use it and it must be removed. --ddima/talk 21:16, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
- Dear DDima, thank you for your concern and suggestions. My thinking is that to this point it is better to leave article as it is; though not disputing the existence of rumors and allegations as for Rinat Akhmetov criminal ties, I think it is better to omit them here unless they are verified by truly reliable sources.Orekhova (talk) 07:08, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- Dima, I don't think a resolution can be made here. The content itself is legitimate, and CFred was fine with it and even helped in creating it after the last few attacks by Akhemotov-censor accounts. These 2 now pop up with the same arguments, even with the proper sourcing. Of course they will be fine with the content removed, they wanted it removed, but without any good reason. I feel that this should be a matter left to veteran users or maybe consult with an expert on the subject, not current makeup (vets vs. new accounts created solely to editwar on this page). I wouldn't be surprised if Orekhova/Komul were socks, either of eachother or of the previously banned users who did the same content removal attacks. --Львівське (talk) 07:51, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have seen the history of the page and have also thought about every possibility. Then if anything, let's take this matter over to WP:BLP/N and see what they do about the matter over there and what they would suggest is accurate/verifiable that should be kept in the article. --ddima/talk 15:34, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
External link with a line break
{{editprotected}} Hello, could someone fix the broken reflink with a line break please?:
Petro Pysarchuk (Lviv) among top 10 philanthropists of Ukraine], Z I K (December 15, 2009)]
--Ben Ben (talk) 16:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hello, this article is protected so far. Orekhova (talk) 07:12, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Another revision rejected as violating BLP policy
Another revision done by Львівське is rejected as the latest version was restructured in more logical way and contained only verified facts supported by reliable sources. Revision by Львівське is violating the Wiki BLP policy , as containing obsolete, controversial information backed up by non-reliable sources. Orekhova (talk) 07:21, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
- Comment from Ukraine: In my opinion, version by Orekhova is correct.
- Revision by Львівське contain rather unofficial info. Any user can verify it in articles in ru: and in uk: Wikis with any on-line translator.
- -- George Chernilevsky talk 20:34, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- George, no offense, but what do online translations of the ru or ua wikis have to do with this? Orekhova and Komul are blanking properly cited scholarly sources, most of which are in English.--Львівське (talk) 05:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- Revision by Львівське is rolled back in order to keep chronological order and facts, properly supported by reliable sources. For instance, such points as education, etc. contain plain erratic information, according to Львівське version; other statements are not supported enough to correspond WIKIs BLP and verifiability policies. --Orekhova (talk) 06:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- You need to be specific in what you are referring to as "libel" or improper sources. You cannot delete en mass and claim that every single scholarly source is just wrong. The links of Akhmetov to crime are too far, too vast, to censor. Anyone with Google can find these links, its public knowledge from reliable sources. I'm going to revamp the section, with more links, and more sources, and you can have fun trying to delete it all then - as it will just prove you are engaging in disruptive editing.--Львівське (talk) 14:40, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- Revision by Львівське is rolled back in order to keep chronological order and facts, properly supported by reliable sources. For instance, such points as education, etc. contain plain erratic information, according to Львівське version; other statements are not supported enough to correspond WIKIs BLP and verifiability policies. --Orekhova (talk) 06:19, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- George, no offense, but what do online translations of the ru or ua wikis have to do with this? Orekhova and Komul are blanking properly cited scholarly sources, most of which are in English.--Львівське (talk) 05:38, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
Edition out
The full section either should be removed as violating the WIKI BLP, verifiability and NPOV policy or fully rewritten, avoiding presentation of allegations as facts. Now come the details.
Statement "Akhmetov is widely alleged to have ties to organized crime" is supported by a broken link. www.golocalprov.com (“GoLocalProv”) is an Internet website based in Providence, Rhode Island , published in 2010 allegations much like those retracted by the Kyiv Post etc. Subsequently, the Providence Journal engaged in a detailed review of the allegations on GoLocalProv’s site and published an investigative piece that fully discredited those allegations and the sources on which they were based. The Providence Journal concluded that “key elements of the [GoLocalProv] story are false or unproven” and that the story presented “suspicions, suggestions, innuendo, and conspiracy theories” as fact - here is the supporting link http://www.politifact.com/rhode-island/article/2010/oct/23/website-ignores-key-facts-link-chafee-organized-cr/ so it is either more reasonable to delete this reference or expand to reflect the whole story, which seems to me less attributive to do.
Link leading to Ivan Katchanovski work doi:10.2747/1060-586X.24.4.351 seems to be the original research, as containing no direct juridical proofs of Rinat Akhmetov criminal ties, except author’s theories and allegations.
- WP:OR is when you or I make assertions or conclusions based on things we find the source material. The source material here, buy a guy as renowned as Ivan Katchanovski, cannot be OR in its own right.--Львівське (talk) 17:11, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Phrase "Serhiy Kuzin, author of Donetsk Mafia: Anthology, claims Akhmetov held the role of a mafia thug in his early years" contains link http://veja.abril.com.br/130509/p_076.shtml again, why would be a quote of non-reliable Portugese-language source is provided (here and further below), while citing the Ukrainian journalist? Nor the Wiki's NPOV policy is observed, while containing biased point of view. The book Donetsk mafia, published in 2006, where the authors claimed Rinat Akhmetov had had criminal background, appeared to be a copy-paste compilation of Intenet publications and was declared the plagiarism in 2008 by Donetsk Region Court of Appeal, the authors (Serhiy Kuzin and Boris Penchuk) were ordered to pay indemnities for copyright violation. Proof links: http://news.liga.net/news/N0865530.html http://24.ua/news/show/id/75131.htm http://www.segodnya.ua/news/13042007.html http://news2000.com.ua/news/sobytija/v-ukraine/58150
- I'm not sure the mixup with the links here, perhaps it's because I didn't have a copy of 'Donetsk Mafia' laying around, but I found it to be another example of the media reporting on these ties. The Donetsk court findings, IMO, are very dubious when you consider that the courts are run by the same mobsters that Kuzin is trying to expose. An addendum may be in order here to clarify or expand on what happened with 'Donetsk Mafia', rather than delete it in its own right. Kuzin remains a very reliable source, and that the courts found this only adds to the controversy (especially when you consider Akhmetov's 'libel wars' and censorship in the media, which should be added to the article).--Львівське (talk) 17:11, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Boris Penchuk, the co-author of the book and Head of Anticorruption Fund, was under official accusation of Donetsk Region Prosecution Office for deliberately misleading reporting of committing offense and extortion and was sentenced to 6 years of imprisonment: http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1275437762
Further referred quotes as to Rinat and his brother Igor were allegedly involved in criminal activities supported by links to work of Hans van Zon, are based on allegations and can be considered the original research, containing no direct juridically based evidences of Rinat Akhmetov guilt, such as court judgment documents etc. Neither the below referred sources such as The Nation and Journal of Democracy deliver any proofs of any criminal activities, using instead such non-neutral words as "flee" etc.
Sentence about Ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs report contains the only reference to overseas investigative journalism program which by no means is the official source of Ministry of Internal Affairs of Ukraine.
Sentence mentioning Serhiy Kornich, ex-head of the Interior Ministry's economic crimes department, contains link to interview with Yuri Lutsenko, who is imprisoned now and his statements seem to be biased. No legal evidences to support these statement were mentioned either. --Orekhova (talk) 10:29, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Dear Lvivske, your last comment reflects a lack of neutrality in your approach to editing the article. Please, follow the BLP Wiki rules: Neutral point of view, Verifiability. You are trying to turn this article into arena for political debate. Do not forget, that а person who harms another's reputation may be referred to as a defamer. --Komul (talk) 11:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)