ahem |
Arianewiki1 (talk | contribs) No edit summary |
||
Line 349: | Line 349: | ||
:::::::::: I have not "promoted" anything here (and saying so defies [[WP:GF|good faith]]), and it is not trivial on nomenclature. As for saying "...if it is included then so must every other obscure identifier" is laughable. In this instance, there are no other possibilities than Rigel B, β Ori B or STF 688B!!!! [[User:Arianewiki1|Arianewiki1]] ([[User talk:Arianewiki1|talk]]) 01:03, 10 March 2019 (UTC) |
:::::::::: I have not "promoted" anything here (and saying so defies [[WP:GF|good faith]]), and it is not trivial on nomenclature. As for saying "...if it is included then so must every other obscure identifier" is laughable. In this instance, there are no other possibilities than Rigel B, β Ori B or STF 688B!!!! [[User:Arianewiki1|Arianewiki1]] ([[User talk:Arianewiki1|talk]]) 01:03, 10 March 2019 (UTC) |
||
::::::::::: That paper doesn't contain Rigel in it, and just lists a whole bunch of alternate names. So what? AND what they use in the text is (surprise surprise) Bayer Designations or Henry Draper catalogue unless there is a specific reason not to. Also, after the way you often snipe at people, calling out someone on [[WP:GF|good faith]] looks grossly hypocritical to say the least. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 02:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC) |
::::::::::: That paper doesn't contain Rigel in it, and just lists a whole bunch of alternate names. So what? AND what they use in the text is (surprise surprise) Bayer Designations or Henry Draper catalogue unless there is a specific reason not to. Also, after the way you often snipe at people, calling out someone on [[WP:GF|good faith]] looks grossly hypocritical to say the least. [[User:Casliber|Cas Liber]] ([[User talk:Casliber|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Casliber|contribs]]) 02:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC) |
||
:::::::::::: A pretty weak response. [[User:Praemonitus|Praemonitus]] is talking about convention of nomenclature not Rigel per se. They said "This is demonstrably not the case, since there are almost no readily available sources that do so. " I've provided and demonstrated an example the convention. (you think that over +120,000 systems, the usage might be "often" enough) As for the pointed out table is divided by designation e.g. 'Cluster, Other Designation' & 'V*, **, Other Designation' The second column is relevant double/multiple stars the second column has Bayer Designation or Henry Draper catalogue for individual stars. You could of had a point, but as you've said 'surprise, surprise', this B Star has neither! (Due to the saturation of the Plate towards Rigel, which blotted out this companion.) Again. <b>The whole Section is about the double star/multiple star components. </b> One would think it would be sensible to adopt the convections used for double stars or multiple stars, even when showing evidence via SIMBAD, the IAU Convention that underlies it, the WDS, authors of a paper who maintain the WDS and are on Commission 26 of the IAU, and me who has used the convention. Plainly, the SIMBAD webpage for STF688B is a good enough cite and a reliable source.[http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-id?Ident=**STF+668B&submit=submit+id] |
|||
:::::::::::: If such overwhelming evidence… well, at least there are other processes to use. Thanks for your imput and contributions. [[User:Arianewiki1|Arianewiki1]] ([[User talk:Arianewiki1|talk]]) 22:55, 10 March 2019 (UTC) |
|||
== Constellation abbreviations == |
== Constellation abbreviations == |
Revision as of 22:56, 10 March 2019
![]() | Astronomy: Astronomical objects B‑class | |||||||||
|
Season location
At what time of the year is Rigel most visible? I'm trying to locate it around the earth at the spring, summer, winter or fall position
- In which hemisphere? :) I imagine it makes a difference? I only know that, in the northwestern United States, we see Rigel most clearly from October to April. Don't know if that's specific enough for you. It also depends on whether you want when Rigel is at its peak at midnight, or whether you want it earlier in the evening. Jwrosenzweig 19:49, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Hemisphere in this case (N/S) doesn't matter. Rigel is in the night sky during the winter, as you say. It's in the southern celestial hemisphere, but very near the celestial equator, meaning that it is visible from the entire southern hemisphere of the Earth and all but the highest latitude Arctic regions of the northern hemisphere. -- Decumanus 19:53, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Hemisphere does matter when the question is asking in terms of the seasons. Winter in the northern hemisphere translates to summer in the southern. --seav 19:14, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- How high does it get from Glasgow (Scotland)? I don't think Orion rises very high in the sky.81.107.126.114 14:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- I was gonna say :P It's summer right now and Rigel is bright and high... SpitValve 08:23, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Giant - Dwarf
The article says Rigel is a super giant;
- I suspect the dwarf category was added because the companions of Rigel are main sequence. I have deleted that category though, just to keep things clear as Rigel is usually understood to be the main star.--Kalsermar 19:32, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
what the hell -- unsigned
- In this case, should we split off Rigel B as a separate aticle? -- CaptainMike 17:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Celestia
Excuse me, but what a junk Celestia imagery. :-p It's not even an "artists" rendition as it claims, unless a software is now an artist. :-p
Anyway, my point is, wouldn't it be better to have real images than just Celestia things? Keep in mind that Celestia use about 5 textures for all documented stars it supports in our galaxy. Sure, a real picture can't be quite as up close, but still... It'd at least depict Rigel. -- Northgrove 16:52, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
- Right, the current image is pretty useless as it is not informative. In addition, it is wrong because B supergiant stars like Rigel don't have sunspots. A size comparison might be handy.— JyriL talk 17:14, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
Radius and diameter
I don't get it. On Rigel's page it says its 70 solar radii. Yet the list of largest stars has the units in diameter. This list has Rigel on it listed as 70 sun diameters. So is it a simple mistake?
- No mistake, but what is exactly the problem? 70 radii means the radius is 70 times the radius of our sun. 70 diameters means 70 times the diameter of our sun. Both things are equivalent.--CWitte 14:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is the back-and-forth. Rigel's radius and diameter are 70 times that of the Sun, yes, but we should adopt a consistent rule across articles to avoid this minor confusion. Radius or diameter? You choose. 68Kustom (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- why does NASA say that "Rigel is much larger at 78 solar radii" here http://www.nasa.gov/worldbook/star_worldbook.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.115.186.143 (talk) 17:11, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- The problem is the back-and-forth. Rigel's radius and diameter are 70 times that of the Sun, yes, but we should adopt a consistent rule across articles to avoid this minor confusion. Radius or diameter? You choose. 68Kustom (talk) 02:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Well first of all, you can calculate the radius of a star based on b-v (color index) and the absolute magnitude as shown in http://cas.sdss.org/dr6/en/proj/advanced/hr/radius1.asp The steps are: 1) based on the b-v (color index) you can find out the temperature of the star 2) using the temperature of the star and the absolute magnitude of the star you can calculate the star radius as shown in the link
The downside is that I calculated Rigel's temperature using those formulas and it isn't 11.000 K, i got 9076.59347 K and that led to its radius of 85.9568577517187 solar radii. Raydekk (talk) 16:48, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- Eh, we should prefer using sourced radii measured or computed outside. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 16:27, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
image
What can be seen on the "artist's impression" image? Why is it "viewed from 1AU" and how should it look like e.g. from 2AU or from 7 ly? I just see a white circle, some spots and nothing else. Maybe one should put a small sun inside the picture to have a comparision at least, --CWitte 08:21, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see the point of this image either. Rigel is white, blurry, seems to have sunspots or something, and it's so big it doesn't fit into the frame of the picture. / edg ☺ ☭ 01:09, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
i wonder who named it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.193.212.203 (talk) 03:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
- I just ran across this image two years later again. Still I wonder... Isn't File:Rigel_sun_comparision.png better?--CWitte (talk) 08:49, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
Deneb?
The article says "the nearest more powerful star is Deneb" but I could swear that Zeta Puppis is both closer than Deneb and more powerful than Rigel. Wayne Hardman (talk) 12:57, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- It seems the latest analysis might agree with you on the closeness, but I cannot figure out the accepted, most recent, bolometric luminosity of Deneb to be sure that Deneb is more powerful than Rigel. Can an expert check these? Meanwhile I have added this to the Zeta Puppis article:
- 2008 reductions of Hipparcos raw data claim a more accurate distance of 335 parsecs (1092 light years) +/- 4%, and for Deneb, 475 pc +/- 20%.[1]
- -84user (talk) 14:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
- I went ahead and corrected the sentence after checking a few sources to make sure Zeta Pup was both more luminous than Rigel and closer than Deneb - To the best of our knowledge, it is although uncertainties in Deneb's distance are quite large. Wayne Hardman (talk) 00:04, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
- I notice that this change has caused some disagreement between this article and the article on Zeta Puppis. I agree that Zeta Puppis is closer than Deneb according to the latest data, but what about the luminosity? The infobox in the Zeta Puppis article lists its absolute magnitude as -5.96, less than that of Rigel's which is listed as -6.7. Hence, Zeta Puppis is not "more powerful than Rigel". Is this inconsistency because Zeta Puppis' absolute magnitude has not yet been corrected for the new distance measurement? One other thing, why say "Zeta Puppis out in Vela"? Surely Zeta Puppis is located in Puppis (though it may have origins in Vela)? Sisterdetestai (talk) 13:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
- I believe Zeta Pup. abs mag should be greater, the magnitude in the star box hasn't been corrected for its new distance. If I get chance, I'll look it up. Thanks for the heads up! Wayne Hardman (talk) 17:12, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've restored Deneb in the sentence. Zeta Pup. has been edited also to reflect its new, closer, distance and lower luminosity. Zeta Pup. *is* still more powerful than Rigel going on the figures in this article (66,000L vs 360,000L) but I'm not confident the bolometric for Rigel is accurate. I may be reverting this edit if it is. Wayne Hardman (talk) 23:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
- I'm sufficiently convinced that the sentence was inaccurate and that Naos is both more powerful than Rigel and closer than Deneb. This issue should be closed now. Wayne Hardman (talk) 22:22, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
Something I don't get: what about Betelgeuse? More powerful and even closer than Rigel? Talking about "powerful" you should consider bolometric luminosity, shouldn't you? Comparing absolute magnitude MV is kind of odd (anthropocentric...).--CWitte (talk) 15:42, 27 June 2009 (UTC)
References
- ^ J. Maíz Apellániz, E. J. Alfaro, A. Sota. Accurate distances to nearby massive stars with the new reduction of the Hipparcos raw data. Retrieved 2009-01-09
Fact request
I found the text "jumk.de does not cite its sources, so please replace with better source when one found", in the article, as regards to the radius 62 — I just agree, and think it deserves a talk note too. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 16:32, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
- It got a new source. NASA should be a little more reliable, I think. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 16:48, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
Size and Mass
This page says, and I quote:
Rigel is a blue supergiant, at 17 solar masses, shining with approximately 40,000 times the luminosity of the Sun.[5]
The "Blue Supergiant" Page says:
"The best known example is Rigel, the brightest star in the constellation of Orion. Its mass is about 20 times that of the Sun, and its luminosity is more than 60,000 times greater."
These pages appear to be in contradiction.--131.215.7.219 (talk) 05:34, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
There appear to be contradictions on this page also. The physical properties section states that Rigel is about 24 solar masses, while the radius is 71 solar radii. That would appear to indicate a volume and thus mass relative to the sun at least 1.5 million times greater (4/3*pi*r^3), unless the density of Rigel B is extremely (vanishingly) low.Plantsurfer (talk) 01:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
- Rigel is in the supergiant stage, which means the outer atmosphere has expanded significantly compared to when it was a main sequence star. Yes the density of Rigel's outer envelope is very low; most of the mass is likely concentrated near the core. Consider the surface gravity (log g) of Rigel: 1.75; this is equal to a gravitational force of 56 cm/s2, or 0.057 g's.
- As for the value discrepancy, the values on this page are reliably sourced; the values on the Blue Supergiant page are not. That isn't to say that the estimates on the latter page are wrong. Most likely the two estimates are based on estimates made at different points in time, from observations made with differing instruments, different models or methods and different estimates of the star's distance. Radii based on direct interferometric measurements (as on this article) may be more accurate than those derived from stellar models, assuming you have a good distance estimate. &c. Also it's usually best to go with a recent source rather than a dated reference, when there is a choice in the matter. Regards, RJH (talk) 02:51, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
In popular culture?
Just sitting here watching an old Star Trek episode (Wolf in the Fold), and the Rigel system features prominently in the episode, as well as other episodes in other Star Trek series. Does it warrant a mention? I assume "Rigel IV" would be the fourth planet in the fictitious Rigel system? Note: I'm not a "Trekkie", just thought maybe it belonged? Ebrockway (talk) 04:56, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, I found this page "Rigel in fiction" and maybe that could be somehow linked? Yeah, I know I'm conversing with myself! Ebrockway (talk) 05:07, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is listed in the See Also section at the bottom of the page. Personally I'd make a summary of that article and put it in this one but have not had the time. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- Ah, personally I'd prefer that you didn't. "Object in fiction" articles are notorious trivia attractors that are often difficult to summarize concisely, in the form recommended by WP:SS. They end up just drawing useless trivia to astronomy articles. Thanks. Regards, RJH (talk) 14:38, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
- It is listed in the See Also section at the bottom of the page. Personally I'd make a summary of that article and put it in this one but have not had the time. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:09, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Spectral type
Simbad lists B8Iab:. The reference it gives for this also quotes B8Iab:, but that is simply copied from another paper: http://www.aavso.org/files/webpublications/ejaavso/v31n1/11.pdf That "original" reference gives the spectral type as B8Iae. I;m not sure if someone made a typo or whether they are simply taking liberties. Incidentally, the current value in the starbox cites the paper that Simbad cites, but gives a spectral type that omits the colon, so that should probably be changed anyway. The reverted edit actually gave the correct value from the paper (via Simbad).
As to the value we should show, there is no doubt that it is B8 because it is defined to be B8. There is little doubt about the I. The spectrum does have some emission, but it is largely emission wings on absorption lines and not very strong. Plenty of authors simply quote Ia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lithopsian (talk • contribs) 17:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- Moravveji et al (2012) is a pretty up-to-date summary/study of the star. They list B8 Ia, so why don't we use that? Regards, RJH (talk) 18:47, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Is it Ree-Gel or Regal ?
Can someone add the pronunciation? -- AstroU (talk) 20:42, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
Distance estimates table
Why does the table of distance estimates include Perryman et al. (1997) (Tycho) 308.6+∞ −298.3 [36] ? The distance cited is over 30 times greater than any of the other three listings, which does not seem reasonable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dc3~enwiki (talk • contribs) 13:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- It does seem pretty pointless. I need to digest and do some reading. Actually table might be better in prose form, which allows for some explanation, weighting, background and history...cheers, Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:10, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- It is what it is. The margin of error is larger than the parallax itself so it doesn't tell you a lot about the distance, but that's what Tycho measured. Lithopsian (talk) 15:00, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
Rigel is the second brightest star in Orion
GVSC gives alpha Ori as +0.00 magnitude.[1] Rigel is +0.13, which is fainter.[2] Evidence is clear and obvious. Arianewiki1 (talk) 16:01, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- The most accurate way of writing it would be to reflect the overall comparison - hence "Rigel is generally the brightest star in Orion, though there are times when the variable star Betelgeuse outshines it" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 16:10, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
- Or substitute "generally" with "more often than not" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 16:11, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Rigel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
- Added archive https://archive.is/20130102233719/http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/orion.htm to http://www2.gol.com/users/stever/orion.htm
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
- If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
- If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.
Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 03:17, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
Luminosity
@Cron11 and Lithopsian: I wonder whether we should just delete the sentence - its luminosity has been measured at 120,000 or 279,000 times that of the sun...clearly does overlap with Betelgeuse (though I do suspect brighter), hence we can't really rank the stars anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- I feel that this sort of ranking, other than in the most blatant and reliable (and cited) cases, is unhelpful and impossible to maintain. Lithopsian (talk) 16:13, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
Buffing to GA-hood
Hey @Lithopsian: what you reckon about buffing this one to GA-hood, which will act in sorts like a Stable Version? I was abit baffled by these results, which make it considerably less luminous than some others. Would be good to put all results and how they were derived. I do like it when we embrace uncertainty but showing how different results are derived and the certainty of 'knowing' them. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:36, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
PS: There were a few new papers in 2017-18 that looked like they study some interesting stuff like mass loss and membership of larger group. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:37, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'll certainly try to improve things. I started off seeing the new papers, but then found a lot of what was there already needed tidying up. The low luminosity is a surprise: it comes mainly from a lower temperature, the radius is very much in line with previous results. It is hard to criticise the temperature, it is newly derived using model atmospheres and SED fitting. This is way out of line with more previous results, but also a different method to the previous results which tend to use spectra rather than SED fitting. A trivial calculation from brightness and distance (260±20 pc from Hipparcos), even assuming no extinction which is thought to be the case for Rigel anyway, and taking any remotely sensible bolometric correction for a B class supergiant, gives a luminosity a little over 100,000 L☉. It isn't a coincidence that this is the number derived by earlier studies, but assuming the distance is correct it sets an absolute lower bound for the luminosity, suggesting that the new result is flawed. Roll on Gaia. I'm thinking to discuss the new results in the text but not put them in the starbox, much as I hate to "ignore the data". Lithopsian (talk) 20:30, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yes - I think it is important to include it and hopefully there is a subsequent paper that clarifies why it is wrong. Luckily kisa are only preoccupied with superlative or exaggerated results...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:40, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- " Roll on Gaia." Eh? Gaia accuracy for stars above 4th magnitude cannot be measured. Rigel has no Gaia data. Just saying. Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:45, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- "The 230 brightest stars in the sky (G < 3 mag, loosely referred to as very bright stars) receive a special treatment to ensure complete sky coverage at the bright end" and "it is expected that a single-measurement precision of 100 μas will ultimately be achievable, which corresponds to end-of-life astrometry with standard errors of a few dozen μas".[1] So Rigel isn't in DR2, but will be in the final catalogue, with a precision that should comfortably exceed Hipparcos and at the very least confirm or contradict previous parallaxes. Lithopsian (talk) 17:33, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Wow, can hardly wait....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Again. Clutching straws here, eh? Distance requires a parallax. DR3 will still have nothing but an estimate of Rigel's position. That's the whole point. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:34, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- How do you figure that? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Clearly. "So Rigel isn't in DR2, but will be in the final catalogue, with a precision that should comfortably exceed Hipparcos and at the very least confirm or contradict previous parallaxes" is another false statement. The brightness of the star (and those above 3rd magnitude) greatly exceeds the threshold of the detector. Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- Suit yourself if you aren't going to listen or learn, but for the information of others here's an update paper on Gaia and very bright stars[2] and a presentation with nice pictures. 151.230.113.97 (talk) 16:56, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- Clearly. "So Rigel isn't in DR2, but will be in the final catalogue, with a precision that should comfortably exceed Hipparcos and at the very least confirm or contradict previous parallaxes" is another false statement. The brightness of the star (and those above 3rd magnitude) greatly exceeds the threshold of the detector. Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- How do you figure that? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- "The 230 brightest stars in the sky (G < 3 mag, loosely referred to as very bright stars) receive a special treatment to ensure complete sky coverage at the bright end" and "it is expected that a single-measurement precision of 100 μas will ultimately be achievable, which corresponds to end-of-life astrometry with standard errors of a few dozen μas".[1] So Rigel isn't in DR2, but will be in the final catalogue, with a precision that should comfortably exceed Hipparcos and at the very least confirm or contradict previous parallaxes. Lithopsian (talk) 17:33, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
References
- ^ T. Prusti; et al. (GAIA Collaboration) (2016), "The Gaia mission", Astronomy and Astrophysics (forthcoming article), 595: 21, arXiv:1609.04153, Bibcode:2016A&A...595A...1G, doi:10.1051/0004-6361/201629272
- ^ Sahlmann, J.; Martín-Fleitas, J.; Mora, A.; Abreu, A.; Crowley, C. M.; Joliet, E. (2016). "Enabling science with Gaia observations of naked-eye stars". Space Telescopes and Instrumentation 2016: Optical. Space Telescopes and Instrumentation 2016: Optical, Infrared, and Millimeter Wave. 9904: 99042E. arXiv:1605.08347. Bibcode:2016SPIE.9904E..2ES. doi:10.1117/12.2231240.
- Clearly facts trumps speculations. Sadly the inherent errors by Gaia become larger for bright stars, becoming likely on par with HIP. I.e. 1 mas. Your linked reference clearly concludes: "Virtual object synchronisation may mitigate some of those problems for the 50 stars brighter than G=1.75. " The problems in reduction and calibration of GAIA data in the case of bright stars (above 3rd magnitude) are not simple, and these given references point this out. If you read pg.9-10, Gaia could not detect the star's core to get any astrometry, and this was for stars with G magnitudes between 1.1-5.0. Rigel is bright than 1.1G magnitude (they define it as an ultra-bright stars BTW. ). They even summise "The final astrometric error of these observations will be the sum of the formal precision and the residual calibration error, which will therefore be larger than the numbers derived as the ultimate limit from the Cramer Rao lower bound. Here, we do not quantify how well these data can be calibrated." (My bold.) If you read the conclusion (pg.11), they say: "We presented a technical solution that would allow the collection of Gaia astrometric and spectrophotometric data for extremely bright stars (G < 2).'" this does not include Rigel. Worst it is unclear with their method will be adopted with GAIA mission. e.g. "It is however not yet clear whether this mode will be adopted for the remainder of the Gaia mission." (pg.11).
- Your claims of me not understanding the sources are unjustified. Simply, the misleading statements criticised by me are quite justified.
- Another gross error is your edit saying "Remove Simbad-specific codename."[3] Actually it is the name of the variable in GVSC, and was added to counter this incorrect statement that Rigel has no variable star designation. [4] It does. (I have now restored this.)
- NOTE: Good to see another anon IP present an argument and attempt to deride an argument based solely a series of edits on Rigel alone.[5] Suspicion infers this is likely socking to avoid legitimate scrutiny, made worse by the evidentiary discussion and criticism here. Are you a sock of Lithopsian? Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:54, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
Enough now?
Do you think there is enough coverage now? Time to polish? Lithopsian (talk) 21:07, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- This article still has more than a few dozen gross errors, which need to be corrected. (I've just correct the variable star designation that appears in the GCVS5.) It remains below GA standards based on poorly sourced or over used references for cites e.g. Kaler and Schaff. John Herschel first discovered in 1839 that Betelgeuse was sometimes brighter than Rigel. Webb (and several others) have said in the 19th Century "…has speculated that maybe it was during a rare period where it was outshone by Betelgeuse resulted in the latter star being Alpha and Rigel Beta Orionis." Kaler just repeated it. It is also fits uncontroversial knowledge as stated in WP:SCG.
- I have removed the tag - Herschel (1840) doesn't speculate on the Bayer designations. I don't know the Webb citation. Just because Kaler mentions it does not mean he came up with the idea. Hence the statement and source are true. If you find an older source speculating on the same issue you are welcome to add it. If you can't then it stands as the best available reference. In any case it doesn't warrant a [dubious – discuss] tag, which is missing the point. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
- As for the 2nd paragraph of 'Nomenclature' it verbosely/garrulously says:
- "In 2016, the International Astronomical Union organized a Working Group on Star Names (WGSN)[22] to catalog and standardize proper names for stars. The WGSN's first bulletin of July 2016[23] included a table of the first two batches of names approved by the WGSN, which included Rigel for the star β Orionis A. It is now so entered in the IAU Catalog of Star Names.[24]"
- Simply write:
- "In 2016, Rigel or β Orionis A. was entered in the IAU Catalog of Star Names.[24]"
- Here GA requires "They are well written, contain factually accurate and verifiable information." This article presently fails on all three counts!! Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:12, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- I note the stated magnitudes are mostly wrong, especially as the Guinan et al. (Ref 4) is quoting the range of 0.05 to 0.18 from another unnamed source. (They didn't measure it BTW) . Even Moravveji, et al. (2012) Vmag of ~0.12 was only derived over 27.7 days. Its range appears as 0.17p-0.22p in GCVS (2009), from 0.17-0.22 Hpmag (1991) in a period of 2.07 days[7], and 0.03:V-0.30:V NVS (1981). A better mean visual mag is +0.08 from uvbyβ results (no extinction problems) from Hauck (1997) [8] (as uvby98 100034085) than +0.13 from Ducati (2002) "Catalogue of Stellar Photometry in Johnson's 11-color system.", which has questionable extinction especially with a nearby reflection nebula. Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- Guinan got their results from their own study in 1985 of observation over 18 nights. I have expanded how they got that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Its tricky. Very few reliable sources publish a range of variability in the V filter. Guinan does, although is a bit lax about explaining where it came from. He's done the photometry, but it isn't clear which photometry was used or whether it was just a general guess from literature values. The NSV (sic) catalogue is a possible alternative. The results are just a crude min/max of extreme values from the literature, not necessarily consistent with eachother, but could be considered comprehensive. Difficult to cite though, because they've been removed from the latest versions of the online tables. As for the "mean" magnitude, Simbad lists Ducati and that's good enough for most people. +0.12 was in Simbad for a long time, is in many catalogues such as the Bright Star Catalogue, and is still widely quoted. Quite how much of a mean it really is is open for discussion. Hauck is definitely a mean, of one value from the 1970s, so we should ignore that. The GCPD is a comprehensive catalogue of photometry and they publish a weighted mean in the UBV system of +0.138 (in GCPD2), as well as showing all the underlying published values. Hipparcos doesn't publish V magnitudes, but their Hp results suggest a considerably fainter range. The Tycho Vt magnitude is close to V and can be converted to within a few hundredths, suggesting a V magnitude of +0.28. Older photovisual magnitudes that should be close to the V system give results around +0.30, for example the HD catalogue at +0.34. I can't find any reliable sources discussing these possible discrepancies, for example as a secular change in brightness, larger range in the past, inaccuracies in some older data, or simply very erratic variations with rare bright and faint periods. Some (most, to be honest) of these magnitudes are for the combined ABC system, but the difference from A alone is tiny. I'm not sure we need to change anything in the starbox, except possible using the NSV numbers for the variable range. Discussion in the text would be difficult because there are no sources to cite, other than throwing out a whole slew of numbers which we shouldn't read too much into ourselves. Lithopsian (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Guinan got their results from their own study in 1985 of observation over 18 nights. I have expanded how they got that. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:54, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Evolution?
Is it worth mentioning this paper where Saio et al debate whether or not Rigel (and Deneb for that matter) have already passed through a RSG stage? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:41, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
- Added. I was deliberately avoiding this since it hasn't really been picked up on or confirmed, but I added some text that isn't too absolute. Lithopsian (talk) 21:27, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah...to me it seems a little counterintuitive for some reason. They're basing it on some incongruous results and argue in their own paper it could be either anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- There is a later paper, "solving" the CNO puzzle, but it still isn't widely-accepted that these are post-RSG stars. Most papers, implicitly or explicitly, treat them as coming straight from the main sequence to the BSG state. Lithopsian (talk) 22:24, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah...to me it seems a little counterintuitive for some reason. They're basing it on some incongruous results and argue in their own paper it could be either anyway. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Mass loss?
Chesneau's 2010 study is quoted by Moravejj. There is also a further study to look at. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:13, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'll have a read and see about expanding that section. Might take a while, I haven't read that paper before. Lithopsian (talk) 21:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- I put something in that I think will be informative and hopefully not too abstruse. Lithopsian (talk) 18:11, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Lithopsian: that reads well. Would 'loop' be a link to Coronal loop? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Close enough. I linked it. Lithopsian (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Lithopsian: that reads well. Would 'loop' be a link to Coronal loop? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
More pictures?
A | |||||||||||
Separation=9.5″; Period=24,000 y | |||||||||||
Ba | |||||||||||
Separation=0.58 mas; Period=9.860 d | |||||||||||
Bb | |||||||||||
Separation=0.1″; Period=63 y | |||||||||||
C | |||||||||||
Hierarchy of orbits[1]
There are some pictures, but I think maybe one or two more might be good with all the extra text now. There's a whole category for Rigel at Commons, but nothing jumps out as being essential for the article. Lithopsian (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Agree..it's slim pickings there. I hate the blue sphere depictions as there is no guarantee it is round like the Sun. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Moravveji et al. (2012) says, "Chesneau et al. (2010) ... speculate that Rigel is observed with its rotation axis along the North-South direction at significantly high inclination angle" and "Assuming a high inclination angle, the rotation velocity is well below 20% of the estimated critical breakup rotation rate of ~185 km/s, so spherical symmetry can be safely assumed for its geometry." I think that might allow us to use a simple blue sphere illustration. The article probably also needs a sentence or two on its rotation. Praemonitus (talk) 20:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
- I am lukewarm to mildly negative on the idea but if @Praemonitus and Lithopsian: are keen for a pale blue ball image then ok.... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:53, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Moravveji et al. (2012) says, "Chesneau et al. (2010) ... speculate that Rigel is observed with its rotation axis along the North-South direction at significantly high inclination angle" and "Assuming a high inclination angle, the rotation velocity is well below 20% of the estimated critical breakup rotation rate of ~185 km/s, so spherical symmetry can be safely assumed for its geometry." I think that might allow us to use a simple blue sphere illustration. The article probably also needs a sentence or two on its rotation. Praemonitus (talk) 20:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
- Agree..it's slim pickings there. I hate the blue sphere depictions as there is no guarantee it is round like the Sun. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:15, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Would it make sense to have an orbital heirarchy chart like the one on Castor (star)? I'm not clear that the heirarchy is fully understood though. Praemonitus (talk) 15:32, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Would be good. Although the hierarchy isn't 100% clear, there is a reasonable current consensus along the lines of this. We can, and do, describe the uncertainties in the text. Lithopsian (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Draft version posted above. Please correct if needed. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 22:40, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- Would be good. Although the hierarchy isn't 100% clear, there is a reasonable current consensus along the lines of this. We can, and do, describe the uncertainties in the text. Lithopsian (talk) 15:48, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
A | |||||||||||||||
Separation=9.5″ Period=24,000 y | |||||||||||||||
Ba | |||||||||||||||
Separation=0.58 mas Period=9.860 d | |||||||||||||||
Bb | |||||||||||||||
Separation=0.1″ Period=63 y | |||||||||||||||
C | |||||||||||||||
Hierarchy of orbits[1]
- How about more like this? More hierarchical, although wider. 81.107.144.11 (talk) 18:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- This new version is clearer. I like it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yes it looks clearer now. Thanks. Praemonitus (talk) 16:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- This new version is clearer. I like it Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:43, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- How about more like this? More hierarchical, although wider. 81.107.144.11 (talk) 18:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
References
Remaining things...
When I get some time, I'm planning on checking a few bits in the last two sections, which are still a bit messy. The stuff is obscure and not especially germane to the rest of the article. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:04, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
Refimprove tag
I have removed the refimprove tag as about 98% of the article has inline citations. If this tag were relevant, probably 95% of wikipedia articles could be tagged in the same way.
@Arianewiki1: I know you placed the tag originally related to Kaler and the hypothesis about the Bayer Designation. If you have an idea of a specific earlier source then tell me. I can't find Webb nor know who he is. Similarly with other questions of magnitude etc. I am happy to write something just not sure what. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:32, 8 February 2019 (UTC)\
- This article is a mess, with many cites being misused or biassed to meet unfounded interpretation. Thomas Webb 'Celestial Objects' is a common source. Either get consensus or leave the template. Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:45, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Arianewiki1: Webb does not mention anything about Bayer in his book. He does note that Betelgeuse was brighter than Rigel in some observations by Herschel but that's it. So that leaves us with Kaler as the person who linked the brightness with the Bayer desginations and neither of the sources you. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:34, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
- These reasons are no excuse to remove tags, especially as there is no consensus. Having cites here are not the problem, it is the selected cites require additional verification because they are not necessarily reflect facts nor basic knowledge about Rigel. e.g. Looks like biassed selection. If this article is going to get GA status this must be fixed. To fix it requires other independent editors to check. As for Webb, I claimed no such thing. Bayer is irrelevant. Herschel discovered Betelgeuse was variable , commenting that it was sometimes brighter than Rigel. Kaler's comment is certainly not his 'discovery'. I did not add the tag because of Kaler, it is because of the issues with whole article not just a singular issue.
- Again. Do not remove this tag again until these conditions are satisfied. Please read tagging, detag and the Verifiability policy adopted here. As said: "Similarly, editors occasionally remove tags without solving real problems because they are abashed by the tag, do not want additional attention from other editors, or do not like tags." This applies directly here IMO. Note: I have also restored the removed dubious article tag. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:40, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Arianewiki1: "consensus" doesn't mean whatever you think. Now you're changing your story about Herschel, Webb and Kaler. Okay, that is settled. List specific faults instead of just some global statement. I asked you to explain the magnitudes above and you didn't, which suggests you are just tagging because you have an axe to grind rather than wanting to improve the article. If you explain issues then we can act on them, otherwise I can't assume you're acting in good faith. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:29, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
- Using tactics like this is unacceptable behaviour. I have little choice but to use the policies of DR. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
- Who cares. There is a problem with the stated magnitudes, and it is clear it needs to be fixed if the article is ever to achieve GA. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:47, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
- Per Template:More_citations_needed/doc, "This template should be used only for articles where there are some, but insufficient, inline citations to support the material currently in the article". This article clearly does not satisfy the criteria. Use common sense and apply inline citations to the specific issues. Repeatedly posting the same template is WP:POINTy. Praemonitus (talk) 14:11, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Distance and radial velocity question
Given that the star has a (positive) radial velocity away from the Sun and is stated to be considerably closer than the Orion Nebula by the article, how then does "projecting Rigel's [prior] path through space for its expected age brings it close to the nebula"? Praemonitus (talk) 22:00, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
- I checked the source and it does not in fact agree with the statement in the article. I've tagged it with 'dubious'. Praemonitus (talk) 15:50, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- The Orion nebula is of course moving (or the sun is, depend on your point of view), but not in a radically different way to Rigel. I agree that the source doesn't support what the article says about Rigel, although it does leave the door open on Betelgeuse. I'll change it. Lithopsian (talk) 17:09, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Rigel A?
There's a reason none of the references given for this article use the term Rigel A (some journal papers do use the term Rigel A when explicitly referring to the separate components, but this is very much a minority usage). Several reasons, even. Consistency is good, but using the term Rigel A consistently throughout the article simply makes it more wordy, and in most cases more confusing for the lay reader who doesn't much care about anything other than the blue supergiant. Oh, and Rigel A is also wrong, if we want to be strict about it. Even Rigel B is dodgy. Rigel is the blue supergiant, and nothing else. The IAU has even formalised that. Component designations are used with those designators that encompass the various components: Rigel does not; β Orionis arguably does; WDS J05145-0812 definitely does, although interestingly it isn't in the starbox. Using the term Rigel A (or B) might be justified in isolated cases where we need to be explicit about distinguishing components, but where we also want to use the Wikipedia article title, but we shouldn't use it "consistently" because we'd be imposing our own interpretation of "right" on the world. Lithopsian (talk) 19:51, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'd agree with that -it's how all stars that are part of binary systems are called. The IAU has muffed that slightly but maybe it actually clarified it a bit. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:02, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
- Then the article needs to make clear what is being discussed, because right now it's downright ambiguous. Praemonitus (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Again. Notorious Lithopsian looks like they are just making things up when they actually don't understand. Anyone who challenge them has the attitude of just ignoring. [9] Saying : "Component designations are used with those designators that encompass the various components: Rigel does not; "The IAU has even formalised that. " Eh? It is plaining referring to the double star component. Any intelligent person would realise that the distinction is due to the star being a spectroscopic binary, SB9 307. Determination of spectral type and stellar parameters depends on separation of the spectral lines, hence the Rigel A and Rigel B for components.
- The only thing that is right is this statement: "…because we'd be imposing our own interpretation of "right" on the world." Pot . Kettle. Black. Either understand conventions or leave editing to others. Praemonitus seems the only one here with objectivity seeing this.[10] I'm sick to death of educating those who pretend to be "experts". Really, Lithopsian!![ Arianewiki1 (talk) 04:48, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- No, for me it's just a matter of internal consistency within the article. I'm fine with what appears to be the preferred approach of applying the name Rigel to the primary. As long as it is consistent for the readers. Praemonitus (talk) 15:31, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
@Praemonitus:Look. If you are referring to double star components, the convention is simply the discoverer abbreviation, catalogue number, then the component relationships. e.g. For Rigel it is STF 668A,BC, or BU 555AD, BU 555BC. Astrometric or unresolved components are Aa or Bb, etc. Double stars are measured between components, and this becomes complicated in multiple systems. Measures of distance or position angle for AB, AC, BC are explicit. Referring to components is STF 668A or BU 555D, but for the bright stars with Greek letters, β Ori A or β Ori D is used. There are other variants. You can look at WDS Notes section [11] under : 05145-0812 STF 668 (note the uncertainties with some of these Rigel components.)
References of use also depend on the convention of how the object is observed. e.g. Spectroscopic observations use something like β Ori A or Rigel A. Radio or X-ray observation would use Rigel A. As astronomers have much interest is supermassive bright stars like Rigel, it makes sense to implicitly refer to Rigel A, and not the multiple system per se. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Stellar system section
Does the section Rigel#Stellar system need to be moved so that it comes before discussion of the properties of individual components of the system? The multiplicity is mentioned in the lead, but the body discusses the components before it defines what they are. Lithopsian (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- I prefer presenting the astrometric information first, then move inward to the local characteristics. Hence, if it were up to me, I would have it ordered as follows: Observation, Distance (plus kinematics), 'Stellar system', 'Physical characteristics' (including Spectroscopy, Variability, and Mass Loss), then 'Etymology and cultural significance' and 'In modern culture'. Praemonitus (talk) 15:46, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Fixed. Clear understand double star nomenclature is needed, which seems poorly misunderstood by editors here. IAU Commission 26 is the guide here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 07:42, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's fine and thanks for clearing it up, just make sure you right in grammatical English. Also, need a ref for Burnham. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- I did that, but Praemonitus reverted my edit while I was still fixing the inconsistencies. I actual lost the following edit that was to come. Burnham needs no edit, as BU is the abbreviation for him, with the WDS giving the date of the first measure. Arianewiki1 (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not a mind-reader. The {{in use}} template is available for when you're making numerous edits and don't want to be disrupted. Praemonitus (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- No accusation here. I was only pointing out the confusion with correcting the grammar (and trying to restore lost cites and text). I don't know about this template, so thanks for that. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:52, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not a mind-reader. The {{in use}} template is available for when you're making numerous edits and don't want to be disrupted. Praemonitus (talk) 22:32, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- I did that, but Praemonitus reverted my edit while I was still fixing the inconsistencies. I actual lost the following edit that was to come. Burnham needs no edit, as BU is the abbreviation for him, with the WDS giving the date of the first measure. Arianewiki1 (talk) 21:19, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's fine and thanks for clearing it up, just make sure you right in grammatical English. Also, need a ref for Burnham. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:04, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
I've just made a second reedit of this section, fixing and reverting some of the continuing misunderstanding of conventions wrongly adopted by Lithopsian. The link to the WDS is to the Notes & Catalog, listed here.[12] (Notable too the ADS designation is mostly irrelevant.) I have expertise in this area (published author), and suggest you discuss this on the talk page if you are uncertain or have questions. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- Then don't write rubbish sentences like, " Rigel is observed as a multiple star comprising possibly up to five or six components." . Does the WDS catalog explicitly mention Burnham? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:17, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
- The statement is plainly fact. Read the WDS catalogue. The WDS Notes also cast doubt on the existence of some of these components. The link to Burnham can be found in the "Introduction" and "References and discoverer codes"[13] Bu (or β ) Burnham. A multiple star is simply three or more stars in a system. (See WMC on the same linked page.[14]) The catalogue gives:
05145-0812STF 668A,BC 1781 2017 122 202 204 6.5 9.4 0.3 6.8 B8Iae: 05145-0812BU 555AD 1878 2017 7 2 1 44.5 44.5 0.3 15.4 B8Iae: 05145-0812BU 555BC 1878 2005 25 55 30 0.3 0.1 7.5 7.6 B9
- donating it is a multiple stars, the WDS Notes explain the possible additional components. BU=Burnham, 1878 is 'first date'
- It is clear that the mind set is wrong here. Double stars are related by two stars, but the obsession is titled too much to each single component. It is the relationship in multiple stars between the double AB or A,BC or BC, etc are specific to avoid confusion e.g. distance or position angle or even determining gravitational attachment. If you are discussion the stellar characteristics of the star use the specific name. I.e. STF 668A.Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- If you want to claim this is all "rubbish" please know it is important to really get the facts straight first. Read Star systems#Designations and nomenclature again if you must. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:20, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Just write more clearly then. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:05, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is about knowledge, and those editing should have at least a gist of the subject matter. Lithopsian has presented an made several dozen wrong statements and edits, where the more that is said the further away the article is from achieving GA status. I have presented many times where some of the problems that exist only to have this individual cause as much grief and disruption as possible. They continue to present an 'alternative' interpretative views of many astronomical subjects, and frankly, show a complete lack of wisdom. When confronted with the facts and is shown to be wrong, this individual chooses to act like a victim and now thinks it OK to ignore me[15] when they are caught out . Yet again, why should I have to educate individual's edits, get them persistently reverted. e.g. Lithopsian reverted the discovery of STF668 by Herschel without any justification. Other state by them "Component designations are used with those designators that encompass the various components: Rigel does not; "The IAU has even formalised that." I obviously shown this to be utterly false. Even after explaining it in detail (as above), the revision comments shown in these edits[16] Is this evidence of either incompetence or deliberate disruptive editing? Frankly cleaning up the mess and also writing more clearly is a task for the brave. If you don't know about something, then just get out of the way from others that do. Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:07, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- If you actually stuck to facts instead of padding your actual information with verbose patronising fluff then people might actually listen more. According to the WDS, it's not STF 668AB either but 668A,BC - so STF 668 for the system is more accurate than STF AB. Furthermore, wikipedia tries to avoid words like "current" and Rigel B seems to be being dropped due to the IAU (though clearly has been used up till the IAU proper name push). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:44, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Actually, STF 668AB is correct, which is how the visual double is generally viewed, with the other components being visually unresolved. A multiple star is actually a number of double stars, and it is normal to express measures (Position angle and separation) as the primary star /component relationship. It is implicit. Hence, doubles making the multiple system of Rigel (five components) are STF 668AB, BU 555AC, BU 555AD, BU 555Ba, BU 55Bb. (Yet even pair BU 555 BC can be considered as correct.) STF 668A,BC is presented because the historical measures (used to find any motion over time) might be mixed between STF 668AB and BU 555AC, hence the comma.
- If you actually stuck to facts instead of padding your actual information with verbose patronising fluff then people might actually listen more. According to the WDS, it's not STF 668AB either but 668A,BC - so STF 668 for the system is more accurate than STF AB. Furthermore, wikipedia tries to avoid words like "current" and Rigel B seems to be being dropped due to the IAU (though clearly has been used up till the IAU proper name push). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:44, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- As for "Rigel B seems to be being dropped due to the IAU…." On what evidence!! Please cite it. It is likely a fiction likely created by Lithopsian as a mere wrong opinion. (They don't know, and that was my whole point above.) Rigel B has been used in some of the literature, so even if it were dropped, it has been known as that. As I've previously said, the named is from the spectroscopic observations, whose components are revealed by multiple spectral line for each components. It has nothing to do with the IAU proper name push, it is just a adopted naming convention
- BTW, there are possibly six components for Rigel, being the possible spectroscopic companion close to the primary (Aa). The article states: "spectroscopic companion to Rigel has been reported on the basis of radial velocity variations, and even an orbit calculated, but it is thought that the star may not exist and the pulsations are intrinsic to Rigel itself." This appear in the text, yet editors repeatably remove "five or six components." Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:52, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- There are almost zero instances of books, web pages, or scholarly articles calling the secondary 'STF 688B' or 'STF688B'. Hence it doesn't deserve much attention herein. Wikipedia isn't for promoting alternative names. Praemonitus (talk) 22:26, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- Eh? The Starbox under "Details" give stars as 'A', 'Ba' 'Bb' 'C'. Referring to double stars STF 688AB are stars STF 688A and STF 688B. It is implicit, and indicates each visual component seen in the telescope even though is an unresolved triple with other sub-components. e.g. STF 688AB=STF 688A and STF 688B, STF 688B= BU 555B and BU 555C. BU 555B=BU 555Ba and BU 555Bb. This is how the WDS Notes are divided, as STF 688 in the first column, then the notes body referring to individual stars A or B, etc. In fully this is STF 688A.
- This is far from promoting alternative star names. The problem of naming components of multiple stars have been an issue for several decades and has been discussed in detail to standardise conventions, and has as yet not been fully resolved. (I.e. exoplanets is a further complication.)
- Plainly, STF 688AB refers to the double star system, while STF 688A or STF 688B refers to individual stars. 23:42, 8 March 2019 (UTC)
- I have reverted Praemonitus last aggressive edit on this issue as I feel there is a misunderstanding between defining double stars and individual stars, which is made more complex with multiple stars like Rigel. There is no ultimate standard convention used in double star astronomy in this instance, and having published material on this subject, I feel I have the necessary expertise to show the convention is explicit. In the telescope, the only component visible is the 'B' star. Using other observational methods, this is further divided into additional components, but how do you differentiate these components? Obviously, components can be viewed as a multiple star system (WMC scheme), a series of double stars (WDS scheme) or individual stars. Depending on the observational method and the astronomical discipline have differences in nomenclature. Differentiating in the case of Rigel is more complex compared to most stellar systems. As far as I'm concerned, the more implicit STF 688B, for instance, cannot be mistaken talking about the visible companion of Rigel. Using STF 688AB (or just STF 688) cannot be confused when referring to the visual double star.
- In the end, disagree, fine, but it is probably better to get consensus. Really. The distinction of usage if overly picky as it cannot be misconstrued in its meaning. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:34, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- we can't deviate from the source. So either STF 668 or STF 668A,BC for the system. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:29, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've explained the reasoning, which you refused to listen too or just want too ignore. Reading Question 17 in the WDS Page[17] it implicitly says:
- "When a component designation is given the relative position is of the secondary relative to the primary. For example, for an AB pair at 180 degrees and 3", in a polar coordinate system the A component is at the origin and the B component is at a position angle of 180 degrees (due south) at a separation of 3". Pairs such as AC or BC are measured in a similar manner. ...By default a simple binary is listed without components; the primary is understood to be A and the secondary to be B." However, due to the stars being in a multiple system this needs to be implicit. As said in WMC[18]: "the need for a simple, unambiguous, flexible, and computer friendly designation scheme for components of binary and multiple star systems,"
- STF 688AB is an acceptable designation and does not defy any double star or WDS convention. STF 688AB cannot be confused when referring to the visual double star. Arianewiki1 (talk) 05:46, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- I've explained the reasoning, which you refused to listen too or just want too ignore. Reading Question 17 in the WDS Page[17] it implicitly says:
- we can't deviate from the source. So either STF 668 or STF 668A,BC for the system. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:29, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- You appear to have misunderstood, so let me explain it more clearly then. The original statement was, "The secondary star is often referred to as Rigel B, β Ori B or STF 688B". From this the reader is led to deduce that the star is often referred to as "STF 688B". This is demonstrably not the case, since there are almost no readily available sources that do so. Ergo, I removed "STF 688B" from the sentence since it is plainly wrong. In fact, 'STF 688B' is a very obscure identifier that adds nothing for the reader, as is 'BU 555B'. These should be removed. Praemonitus (talk) 19:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Praemonitus: Way to easy. Go to SIMBAD[19] Use the identifier "**STF 668B" What do you get? Even the WDS says: "...By default a simple binary is listed without components; the primary is understood to be A and the secondary to be B." [20] Methinks this isn't a a very obscure identifier and is NOT "plainly wrong." BU 668B is implicit for a double/multiple component. Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Arianewiki1: SIMBAD is a database of accumulated information about the star, including identifiers. The presence of an identifier on SIMBAD says nothing of importance about the identifier, other than it exists. Nor does the identifier appearing in WDS make it particularly notable, other than to identify the discoverer. Instead you need to look at a range of sources and see how often it occurs. There is very little evidence of its notability in search engines, and we aren't here to promote obscure trivia on nomenclature. Plainly it doesn't belong except on a catalogue list, and if it is included then so must every other obscure identifier. There's a reason why WP:COMMONNAME exists. Praemonitus (talk) 23:44, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Praemonitus: OK. See paper "The High Angular Resolution Multiplicity of Massive Stars" Table 3 pg. 38 [21] If experts like Mason and Hartkopf, who maintain the WDS and are on the IAU Commission 26, don't know then who does? If we talk about double or multiple stars, then the importance of the designation is paramount. STF 688B specifically identifies the visual component of Rigel seen in the telescope, but we know that the B star is composed of three stars not just one, which cannot be resolved. Your weakening argument above is mostly just clutching at straws, and trying to marginalise evidentiary facts for the sake of not being proven wrong. I have published material using this nomenclature and can claim am an expert on the subject, yet sheer novices, who know no better, think they can randomly tell others what identifiers are acceptable or not!
- I have not "promoted" anything here (and saying so defies good faith), and it is not trivial on nomenclature. As for saying "...if it is included then so must every other obscure identifier" is laughable. In this instance, there are no other possibilities than Rigel B, β Ori B or STF 688B!!!! Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:03, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- That paper doesn't contain Rigel in it, and just lists a whole bunch of alternate names. So what? AND what they use in the text is (surprise surprise) Bayer Designations or Henry Draper catalogue unless there is a specific reason not to. Also, after the way you often snipe at people, calling out someone on good faith looks grossly hypocritical to say the least. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- A pretty weak response. Praemonitus is talking about convention of nomenclature not Rigel per se. They said "This is demonstrably not the case, since there are almost no readily available sources that do so. " I've provided and demonstrated an example the convention. (you think that over +120,000 systems, the usage might be "often" enough) As for the pointed out table is divided by designation e.g. 'Cluster, Other Designation' & 'V*, **, Other Designation' The second column is relevant double/multiple stars the second column has Bayer Designation or Henry Draper catalogue for individual stars. You could of had a point, but as you've said 'surprise, surprise', this B Star has neither! (Due to the saturation of the Plate towards Rigel, which blotted out this companion.) Again. The whole Section is about the double star/multiple star components. One would think it would be sensible to adopt the convections used for double stars or multiple stars, even when showing evidence via SIMBAD, the IAU Convention that underlies it, the WDS, authors of a paper who maintain the WDS and are on Commission 26 of the IAU, and me who has used the convention. Plainly, the SIMBAD webpage for STF688B is a good enough cite and a reliable source.[22]
- If such overwhelming evidence… well, at least there are other processes to use. Thanks for your imput and contributions. Arianewiki1 (talk) 22:55, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- That paper doesn't contain Rigel in it, and just lists a whole bunch of alternate names. So what? AND what they use in the text is (surprise surprise) Bayer Designations or Henry Draper catalogue unless there is a specific reason not to. Also, after the way you often snipe at people, calling out someone on good faith looks grossly hypocritical to say the least. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:14, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Constellation abbreviations
The article is somewhat inconsistent in its usage of β Orionis vs β Ori (partly because I just added a bunch of β Orionis!). I would tend to use β Ori if it was just down to me, but usage in other star articles tends to stick to the full constellation names more often than not. Do we want to use the abbreviation consistently throughout, after appropriate introduction of the full name obviously? Lithopsian (talk) 15:06, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- Even more nonsense. Use β Orionis first and once, then use β Ori thereafter. The obvious reason to do so is to make better readability.
As for playing victim politics, it just makes you look weakArianewiki1 (talk) 21:33, 6 March 2019 (UTC)- Please try to keep this discussion civil. Thank you. Praemonitus (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not particular really. It's more of a style issue. As long as the reader can follow the naming conventions and it's consistent across the article. Praemonitus (talk) 22:19, 6 March 2019 (UTC)