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::: It is truly sad to see how one person, with little capacity of decent english writing and obviously even less knowledge of Iranian history, is using this page to promote hatred and bias against Reza Shah. The mere language used by this person shows that he/she cannot be an academic person, let alone an unbiased one. I demand that this article, which after all had been rated as "good", be returned to its original and stable state, and "any additions", which will probably be controversial given the changes that we have already seen, be proposed first on the talk page, discussed thoroughly, and then incorporated into the article. [[User:Shervink|Shervink]] 14:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)shervink |
Revision as of 14:40, 6 February 2007
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Exile in South Africa
Please had more to this section. There is some mention in the internet Reza Shah helped establish the apartheid system there.
Relations with Germany
The guy was an unspeakable fascist and a clear Nazi sympathizer. To say he dispised the Nazis is just naive. I've added NPOV tag to the corresponding section. --Sennaista 20:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Illiterate?
I have heard it said that Reza Pahlavi was illiterate. Is this true? It is not mentioned in the article.
No, this is not true. His handwriting is still available. He certainly did not have a very advanced education, however. Few Iranians had in those times anyway.
De-tribalizing of Iran
I was told that Reza Pahlavi did much to remove tribal politics from the Iranian scene. According to the account that I heard, his methods were brutal. He took all the sons away from tribal chiefs. This eldest, he had killed. The others, he sent for schooling in the West. True? If so, it deserves mention in this article.
- Yes, all of that's true. That's how the Bakhtiari elite (Teymur Bakhtiar, Khalil Esfandiary Bakhtiari et al.) became so well-educated, a tradition that has continued to this day with family members such as Rudi Bakhtiar. There are plenty of sources available about all this. Users SouthernComfort and Zereshk are very knowledgeable about Iranian history in general, and would probably be happy to give you some pointers. --Jpbrenna 19:22, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)
He was not illiterate
His Imperial Majesty
SC, after reading the Wikipedia guidelines you cited, it seems to me that you've misunderstood. It would be OK to say, Reza, Shah of Iran, or Mohammed Reza, Shah of Iran. Name, then title. But "His Imperial Majesty" is an honorific, not a descriptor. Suppose one doesn't want to honor Reza Shah? Suppose one loathes and despises the Pahlavis? It's much as if someone were to write an article about a Pope and consistently refer to him as "His Holiness". Someone who isn't a Roman Catholic might well object to this usage. I don't say "His Holiness" when I talk about the Pope, and I don't think Wikipedia should. Ditto pompous honorifics for rulers.
Are you a monarchist, that this is important to you? Zora 05:29, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- PS. I just looked through the history of the article. The article didn't have any honorific until July 8 of this year, when an anon introduced it. Zora 05:34, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Zora - "His Imperial Majesty" is a style, and technically, we do use these at the beginning of biographical articles on people who held them - at least, we tend to. There is some considerable dispute over whether we should do this or not, but note, say Pope Benedict XVI and George V of the United Kingdom, for examples of articles on both living and dead monarchs which list their style at the beginning. I completely agree with you that we should not "consistently refer to" monarchs, and so forth, by their styles. Sentences like "His Imperial Majesty then did this," ought to be cut out, if there are any. But that does not seem to be the case here. As to objecting to this usage, this argument is frequently made, but I remain unconvinced. To say that an Emperor is an Imperial Majesty is simply to note that "His Imperial Majesty" is a style which is attached to the office of Emperor. "His Holiness" is similarly attached to the office of Pope - it says nothing normative about the Holiness of the Pope, it is simply a traditional address attached to a title. Whether or not these should be included (I tend to think they should be, not so much for people like Popes and Kings, but for princes and princesses, whose style is often rather more difficult to predict if you don't know the intricacies of the rules - for instance, some Princes of Denmark are royal highnesses, and some are just highnesses.) remains an open question, but I'm not sure about the POV claim - it is no more POV to state that Reza Shah Pahlavi held the style of Imperial Majesty than it is to say that he was Shah of Persia/Iran. Whether you like him or not (I don't particularly care for either of the Pahlavis), he was the Shah, and as the Shah, he held the style of Imperial Majesty. The issue becomes more complicated for royalty of countries which are no longer royalties, but this issue does not arise with actual reigning monarchs. john k 05:50, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
Persian vs. Iranian
Could you, if you will, please have a look into the following dispute on the Zoroastrian talk page.
Talk:Zoroastrianism#Persian_vs._Iranian
Thanks in advance. Str1977 10:00, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Title
This article shoud move to Reza Shah. Usually, Reza Pahlavi refers to Mohammad-Reza shah's son (Reza Shah's grandson). Bidabadi 19:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- That's true. I agree. Shervink 20:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)shervink
Marjoribanks
A rather brief article for such an important figure. I might add some material from Cyrus Ghani's excellent Iran and the rise of Reza Shah, not to mention some of Robert Byron's wickedly funny observations on his regime from The Road to Oxiana.
خدا حافظ
Sikandarji 23:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Needs more images and content.
I was wondering if anyone could help locate more images for this article. For example, this image on Fa.WP; it's a great photo, but I don't know anything about the copyright. In North America and Europe, the copyright is life plus 70 years; what are the copyright laws for Iran? Other than that, I'd like to find other photos that we could possibly use (on the Reza Shah Farsi WP article, there is also a stamp image). Once this article starts getting longer (which I hope we can all do), it'll need more images. ♠ SG →Talk 01:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I just did a major cleanup of the article. Still more work to be done, but at least it's a start. Comments? Let's get this article going! ♠ SG →Talk 22:17, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Good Article nomination
I've nominated Reza Shah for good article status. I think the article has gone through extensive changes in the past while, enough to warrant the nomination. Comments? ♠ SG →Talk 11:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Reviewer Comments
I've droped by to review the article. It looks like a solid candidate. Before I promote it, however, I'd like to see more inline references as it is difficult to tell where all the information in this entry is from. --CTSWyneken(talk) 16:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- I've just added some more references. I believe that should take care of the lot of it, but are any other there any statements that you feel need referencing? ♠ SG →Talk 19:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the quick work! I'd like to see some references in the Rise to power section and the Family section. Also, something to back up the tomb destruction.--CTSWyneken(talk) 19:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- I added three more references, one of which is used twice, so only two unique refs. I might have to move the third ref to the end of Overthrow of the Qajar dynasty, because it gives info for the second and third paragraphs of that section, not just the second. What do you think? ♠ SG →Talk 20:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Looks good. I've got to go out of town this weekend, but will look in again Monday. It's close enough to promote now, I think, but one or two more wouldn't hurt, esp. for anything that people might think, "Oh, really?" Very nice work here by all concerned, by the way. This is just small, picky stuff. --CTSWyneken(talk) 21:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Done! Congrats! The article has been promoted. --CTSWyneken(talk) 15:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
- I added three more references, one of which is used twice, so only two unique refs. I might have to move the third ref to the end of Overthrow of the Qajar dynasty, because it gives info for the second and third paragraphs of that section, not just the second. What do you think? ♠ SG →Talk 20:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the quick work! I'd like to see some references in the Rise to power section and the Family section. Also, something to back up the tomb destruction.--CTSWyneken(talk) 19:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Surnames
The article is unclear when he adopted Pahlavi as his surname? Or when any of his surnames were adopted, dropped, and adopted? Could someone in the know make this more clear in the article?Mowens35 14:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
RE surname, then check out the genealogical link at the bottom of the article ... His father's last was Khan, as were his siblings. He didn't adopt Pahlavi until later in life. How do we handle this? It has to be handled properly and not ignored.Mowens35 14:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Also have to explain what Mirpanj means and also later title ... can't just plunk them into the text without explaining what they are and what they mean.Mowens35 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well I didn't write the whole article, and I do not know the answers to all your questions. You can look them up if you like and add them. Shervink 16:15, 30 November 2006 (UTC)shervink
changes by 24.81.87.152
The recent changes by 24.81.87.152 did appear to have some merit, and new sources, however it also removed sources, so its hard to justify the edit as a move towards NPOV; it feels more like a switch of POV, especially removing "the Great". To the contributor 24.81.87.152, feel free to re-introduce these changes slowly so others can review them (i.e. only edit one section at a time). If in doubt whether others will agree that the changes are for the better, talk about the changes here first to gather concensus. John Vandenberg 08:05, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Comments by A Historian
I have changed the previous version after seeing a student has used it as a source for his essay on the "Roots of Discontent in the Iranian Revolution". The student completely absolved the dictatorship of Reza Shah of any wrong doing and responsibility for creating a condition that resulted in the post war unrest in Iran that continued under the tyrannical rule of his son and ultimately caused the pendulum of history swing to a different direction. After reading the article I came to the conclusion that it is urgent to revise the article before other students also get a biased impression in favour of that tyrant.
Now I have at my disposal a library of more that 2000 books, and more than 150000, documents. It would be unrealistic to list them all. That’s why I offered few sources that I thought would satisfy a scholarly mind, but I welcome any inquiry about any of the thesis in the new version.
As for the title of “Great”, it would have been legitimate if the history had conferred that title to him as a sovereign. To call a despot ‘the Great’, because a Muppet parliament had voted by the dictate of his son, is beyond any reasonable credit.
I plan to read other pages related to recent history and edit them if needed. However, this may take a long time, as I am a busy man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 19:52, 3 February 2007 (UTC).
- Firstly of all, Im glad you created an account and come here to explain your contributions.
- Im sure you will agree that the student is solely responsible for any conclusion in an essay; Wikipedia records facts and opinions of notable people; it does not present its own synthesised opinion, and should not be used as a source, nor should it need to be used as a source. A well written Wikipedia article will have copious sources so that the reader doesnt need to cite wikipedia. It is great that you want to get involved in improving this article, but in your haste you neglected to take my advice in #changes by 24.81.87.152. I specifically asked you to introduce your changes one section at a time, and only in the rarest case should you be removing sources in the article. As you will see, you have replaced the old problems with new problems, and usually everyone feels more comfortable with the old problems, so your work ends up being reverted. Anyway, its Sunday here and you have created an account, so here is a critical review of your contributions. After writing this, I will start slowly melding the old and your new contributions in the hope the final result is better. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
the Great
Where the article used the title of 'the Great' , it does not imply he was great; just that he was referred to as that. Unless you have a source that says nobody ever referred to him as 'the Great', it is an accurate title. In relation to that change, you replaced by vote of parliament to as a dictator he demanded the Parliament, which its members were hand-picked by himself to call him, however you did not provide a source for any of the facts you added:
- he was dictator
- he hand-picked the parliament
- he demanded that they call him that
The way you have written it here is clearly to ensure that people dont get the wrong impression, however the result is that you are jamming statements of fact into this sentence without any hope of being able to adequately address them. In the very least, the use of the word "dictator" needs to go as over-simplistic. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- "over-simplistic” ! I am surprised. An overwhelming majority of the Persian sources of various political persuasions consider this as a fact – as I do. You only need to read the speeches of the members of the majles after the dictator was sent to exile. However, let’s look at some of the English sources:
- Barry Rubin, Paved with Good Intentions: The American Experience and Iran, Oxford University Press Inc. 1980, ISBN o 14 00 5964 4 AACR2 “Reza Shah operated more like a traditional monarch. He would not delegate authority. The bureaucracy trembled before him since anyone might be whisked away with the Shah's DICTATE. He preferred prestigious construction projects to more necessary irrigation work. He feared rather than promoted any mobilization of the people. Etc." Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
- Michael Ledeen & William Lewis, Debacle: American Failure in Iran, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1981. ISBN 0-394-51657 AACRI “Mohammad Reza systematically discarded from power all men who might have developed a popular base of support. While his methods were not as ruthless as those of Reza Shah, he made it clear that he did not wish to have strong-minded men in the position of prime minister.” Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
- Roy Mottahedeh, The Mantle of the Prophet, Religion and Politics in Iran, Pantheon Books, New York, 1985.ISBN 0-394-74865-4 “The (Reza) shah and the new intellectuals now lived in an uneasy symbiosis. Some of the new intellectuals refused to betray the ideals of (the Constitutional Revolution) of 1906 and refused to take their place in the national forced march even if it was going in a direction they wanted. These men went to prison, into exile, or committed suicide as did (Davar) the author of Reza Shah’s new law codeSounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
- Richard W Cottam, Nationalism in Iran, University of Pittsburgh Press 1979. ISBN o-8229-3596-7 “This inability to win clear public acceptance on nationalist grounds in turn compelled both father (Reza Shah) and son to resort to strongly repressive policies to control the Iranian people” Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
- Nikki R. Keddie and Yann Richard, Roots of Revolution, 1981, Yale University, ISBN 0-300-02606-4 AACR2
- "Political life under Reza Shah was extremely limited, owing to the Shahs DESPOTIC CONTROLS and SUPPRESSION of OPPOSITION The prominent poet Eshqi was early assassinated for his opposition to the new ruler...Mohammad Mosaddeq, ..., continued briefly to attack Reza Shah's programs in the majles. He was soon put out of office and retired to his estate, re-emerging to prominence in WWII. Other high=level oppositionists either kept quite or were, at least for a time, co-opted by the regime, as was the former democratic leader of the constitutional revolution, Sayyed Hassan Taqizadeh, who became minister of finance and minister to England.
More striking was the fate of some of Reza Shah’s top advisers and aides. Abdol Hossein Taimurtash,.., died in prison after the oil negotiation of 1933, in which the shah suspected him of double-dealing. Sardar As’ad Bakhtiyari,…, become a leading supporter of Reza Shah, but was arrested and murdered in prison. Lesser men suspected of disloyalty were similarly treated…The majles became A RUBBER STAMP and the constitution was paid lip service only. Communist and socialist groups and propaganda were outlawed.” Sounds dictatorial, doesn’t it?
- There are such references in virtually every pertinent historical book in English (and I can provide you with more), The Persian Books are even more explicit).
- On the subject of “Great” I have not seen a single book in English that refers to him as “Reza Shah the Great”. Have you seen one?
- When I was a young man in Iran people called him “Reza Khan the Thug (Qoldor)”. Young girls used to play a game that accompanied a song about him that can be translated as follows: They tricked you, they put a false crown over your head, do not think that you are a king. You are their black slave” (Sar beh saret gozashtan, kolah beh saret gozashtan. Khial nakon to shahie,to qolame siahie). This does not sound like the song of a people for their great king. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 08:53, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
- (btw, I havent looked through this recent set of sources but thank you in advance for finding them -- any evidence of his dictatorship will find a place in the article in time)
- wrt to "the great", I've not added it back to the title and lead sentence because I took heed of the points you have made earlier. I am not knowledgable enough on the topic to "push" for "the great" to be mentioned outside of the "Name" section.
- wrt to using "dictator" in this section, you seem to have missed my point. I do not doubt he was a dictator; I dont care that he was a dictator or not; I just dont like the word "dictator" being added to the section "Name" because that section should be succinct and dedicated to his various names. Using the word "dictator" in that section of the article resulted in an awkward sentence. Quite simply, there is no room in that sentence to squeeze in any reasonable justification for using the word "dictator". I have reworded the sentence; what do you think of it? John Vandenberg 10:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Overthrow of the Qajar dynasty
In this section you moved "the role of the British" to the first paragraph and reworded it from a "sources say" to "popular view". Now I dont know offhand whether it is an accepted fact, and im willing to accept the number of sources support that, however I cant understand why you think it is more important to mention the "view" of the British role before the "real-true-undeniable-facts" of what happened. By doing so you have pushed the facts of the matter down. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- "the role of the British" is the "real-true-undeniable-facts" of what happened. Is it not strange? First you question if Reza khan was a dictator. Now you question the "role of British". May I ask why you are acting as an editor for this subject? Do you understand that the object is to provide an unbised source of information? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 09:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC).
- As I said in my comment to the last section, I do not doubt he was a dictator -- you assumed that. And again here, I did NOT question the role of the British. I even said "im willing to accept the number of sources support that". Please stop leaping to conclusions and try to have faith in your fellow Wikipedians intention.
- What I was pointing out was that you have rearranged this section and put more weight on the role of the British. The article says that the British's involvement is a "popular view" (those are your words) -- even using that phraseology, the British involvement should not carry as much weight as the stated facts of the matter -- i.e. the number of troops, their training, where they first started marching from. Those facts are the undeniable ones. On the other hand, the role of the British is poorly explained, and consequently doesnt currently deserve to be mentioned at the beginning of this section. The most obvious question is how did the British help? The article doesnt give any indication. Without those specifics, the role of the British is only worthy of mention as an auxiliary piece of information.
- Please note that I am commenting on the way the section is arranged/phrased based on the facts and sources that have been provided --- I am not disagreeing with your sources or the facts presented. If you believe that the role of the British deserves to be in the first sentence of this section, you need to provide details of how the British helped put him on the throne. John Vandenberg 11:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Election to the Persian throne
In this section, you have removed two key dates:
- December 15, 1925: he took his imperial oath
- April 25, 1926: he receive his coronation and his son Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was proclaimed the Crown Prince
You also replaced two web sources with a book, which prevents many people from quickly looking at further information:
- named ref "pahlera": The Pahlavi Era of Iran para. 2, 3
- Timeline: Iran; A chronology of key events at bbc.co.uk
Now I can see you have moved the "pahlera" ref further up in the article, but it was also appropriate in this section. The BBC ref has been disappeared completely.
And in addition you have added lots of bold statements to this section, with a single source called "An Interpretive History of Modern Iran" (that book title doesnt conjure reliability)
- he pushed for a "republic", fiercely opposed by the powerful clergymen
- he forced the parliament to depose the young King
- he assured the landlords and the conservative clergy that he will defend Islamic law
I would be useful if you could provide an additional source for these additions; and please include ISBNs when citing books so it is easier for others to verify the book and its contents. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- I wanted to check the two sources carefully, before including them. The sources for the second segment are now cited in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 09:13, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- No worries. In future, when you see a statement that you arnt confident is accurate, please add {{cn}} after it. You should only remove text from Wikipedia if you can prove it is incorrect, or if you have good grounds to doubt it, and after having asked for a reference, nobody has come forward. In both cases, it is advisable to explain your actions on the talk page. The key here is that you should never take it upon yourself to remove stated facts; always try to give other Wikipedians a chance to back up the fact with sources. John Vandenberg 11:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Reign and modernization
You removed an image. Why on earth would you do that?? All of the facts that were in this section have been replaced with a negative view of his reign. Could you please explain why you so heavily trimmed this section. John Vandenberg 23:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
- The removal of the image was done inadvertently. However, what you call a negative view of his reign are not my opinion, they are well documented facts. As you can see in the previous replies there are many other negative facts such as the stories of Davar and Sardar As'ad Bakhtiyary, and many others that are needed to be told. There is a book in Persian by Senator Ibrahim khajehnoori, The Players of the Golden Era, that is needed to be translated among many other books. There are many other documents that show how the Pahlavi era paved the path for what we see today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artaxerex (talk • contribs) 09:27, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- wrt to the image, no worries.
- Please note that again I didnt doubt the negative facts here. I have no problems with the negative view being included in the article, provided it is carefully worked into the current article.
- My question was why have you "heavily trimmed this section". I have added the removed image and text back into the article. If you dont believe any of the facts in this section, definately add {{cn}} so we can all see what you consider dubious. John Vandenberg 12:08, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with all your points. Umfortunately, I will be in Boston next month with a heavy work load. I will provide more sources when I reurn. On the British involvement Hossein Makki's 12 vol. of History of Iran in Twenty Years is an excellent source. Queen Soraya, the second wife of Mohammad Reza Shah In her memoirs (Palace of Solitude, Quartet Books, 1992, ISBN 0 7043 7020 4 implies that Reza Khan was promoted in the Cossack Brigade because of his father-in law: "Taj-al-Mullouk, my mother -in-law...Her father had commanded the cossack regiment in which her husband, Reza Khan, who was later to become Reza Shah, had done his training before becoming colonel. Was it not she, in a sense, who had promoted him in the rank of 'Shah of shahs'"
Michael Ledeen & William Lewis, Debacle: American Failure in Iran, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1981. ISBN 0-394-51657-7 AACRI write: "Reza Khan had a brilliant militay career, and a remarkable stroke of luck opend the door to power at the end of the Great War, when Great Britain occupied Iran in an effort to contain the spread of the Bolshevic Revelution. As part of their anti-Communist program, the British removed all Russian officers from the Iranian Cossack Brigade and replaced them with Iranian Nationals. Reza Khan soon came to the attention of the area commander of the British trooops, Major General Sir Edmund Ironside." Nikki R. Keddie and Yann Richard, Roots of Revolution, 1981, Yale University, ISBN 0-300-02606-4 AACR2 write: " While there is no written evidence of British civilian involvment in the coup (of Reza Khan) it is now known that the commander of British militay forces in Iran, General Ironside backed Reza Khan's rise to power in the Cossak Brigade and encouraged him to undertake a coup." Richard W Cottam, Nationalism in Iran, University of Pittsburgh Press 1979. ISBN 0-8229-3596-7 writes:" By the Treaty of Freindship of 1921 with Iran, ..., (Bolshevic) Russia renounced the hated capitulations, turned over all Russian assets except the fishery industry to Iran, and promised to withdreaw Russian troop from Gilan as soon as British evacuated south Iran... Ironically , however, the Iranian government that accepted the Treaty of 1921 was that ofSayyed Zia al-Din Tabatabai, a government that Iranians considered British-sponsored. In all likelihood, The Russians shared this Iranian assessment. Even after Sayyed Zia had fled and Reza Khan had become the real power in Iran, they may well have agreed with the Iranians that British influence was being exerted in Iran through Reza Khan."
Makki thesis is that to prevent the threat of Bolshevism and to put an end to the tribal unrest and their clamours for more radical reforms British planned and executed the coup of Reza Khan through their embassy’s involvement in Tehran with the support of General Ironside (Sayyed Zia’s cabinet was humorously dubbed Iron cabinet by Iranians). Makki suggests that many of the Reza’s industrial reforms in Iran was directly advantageous for British interest. For example, in spite of the fact that economically an east-west railway system was justifiable (due to the demographic factors), Reza Khan constructed an uneconomical north-south system, which was of greater benefit for the British who had a military presence in the south of Iran. The British strategic defence plan for the transfer of their troops to Russia in the north required a north-south railway. Should the Bolsheviks have threatened the British colonial interests in the Indian subcontinent, this strategic defence system would have compensated for Britain’s geographical distance.
Artaxerex 20:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
- It is truly sad to see how one person, with little capacity of decent english writing and obviously even less knowledge of Iranian history, is using this page to promote hatred and bias against Reza Shah. The mere language used by this person shows that he/she cannot be an academic person, let alone an unbiased one. I demand that this article, which after all had been rated as "good", be returned to its original and stable state, and "any additions", which will probably be controversial given the changes that we have already seen, be proposed first on the talk page, discussed thoroughly, and then incorporated into the article. Shervink 14:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)shervink