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::::::[[WP:UNDUE]] demands representation in proportion to presence in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Three are currently known and generally accepted for the use of Saint Pancake. Things originating in inherently non-notable areas (YouTube, etc.) become inclusion-worthy when they ''are'' mentioned in reliable sources, and their origin is only relevant if that is the only place where they appear. |
::::::[[WP:UNDUE]] demands representation in proportion to presence in [[WP:RS|reliable sources]]. Three are currently known and generally accepted for the use of Saint Pancake. Things originating in inherently non-notable areas (YouTube, etc.) become inclusion-worthy when they ''are'' mentioned in reliable sources, and their origin is only relevant if that is the only place where they appear. |
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::::::Personally, I'm not ''too'' offended that you used "the N word" when we already knew what we were talking about, but if the expectations applied to me by opponents of the inclusion of describing Corrie's being called "Saint Pancake" were applied to you, you would be accused of being a racist. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 00:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC) |
::::::Personally, I'm not ''too'' offended that you used "the N word" when we already knew what we were talking about, but if the expectations applied to me by opponents of the inclusion of describing Corrie's being called "Saint Pancake" were applied to you, you would be accused of being a racist. [[User:Jclemens|Jclemens]] ([[User talk:Jclemens|talk]]) 00:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC) |
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:::::::Jclemens, since you want to discuss this in terms of "the N word", (but act shocked when Untwirl uses the word) lets stick with your reasoning and consider a real analogy. There were many, MANY racists who referred to Martin Luther King by "the N word". And this wasn't in publications like student publications of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Here's a Time magazine article quoting his killer as using it in 1976: [http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913929,00.html Time Magazine]. And yet strangely enough we don't seem to see him named this way in the WP [[Martin Luther King]] article, do we? Even though it was a VERY COMMON epithet used for him and was used in RS publications such as Time. So I'll make you a deal - when you introduce "the N word" (as used by Untwirl) into the [[Martin Luther King]] article, and when you spend as much time defending its use there as you have spent here, then I will believe that you are sincere in your desire to get "balance" into this article and I will support your including "St. Pancake" here. Fair enough? But until then, '''Opposed'''. [[User:Jgui|Jgui]] ([[User talk:Jgui|talk]]) 02:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC) |
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== Pictures of Corrie on Commons == |
== Pictures of Corrie on Commons == |
Revision as of 02:34, 30 May 2009
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Policies
(Please do not archive. New editors are asked to read this section carefully before editing.)
Because this is a contentious article, all edits should conform strictly not only to WP:NPOV, but also to the policies and guidelines regarding sources: WP:NOR, WP:V, and WP:RS. Jointly these say:
- Articles may not contain any unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, analyses, or ideas.
- The above may be published in Wikipedia only if already published by a reliable source.
- A "source" refers to the publication Wikipedia obtained the material from (e.g. The New York Times). It does not refer to the original source of the material (i.e. wherever The New York Times obtained the information from).
- A "reliable source" in the context of Rachel Corrie means:
- articles in mainstream newspapers, books that are not self-published, scholarly papers, official reports, trial transcripts, congressional reports or transcripts, and similar;
- no personal websites, blogs, or other self-published material unless the website or blog was Corrie's own, in which case it may be used with caution, so long as the material is notable, is not unduly self-aggrandizing, and is not contradicted by reliable third-party sources;
- no highly biased political websites unless there is clearly some editorial oversight or fact-checking process.
Blindingly Obvious Facts
I'm not sure if we have adequate sources for the Blindingly Obvious Facts references. There are three sources: (1) The playright's own blog for a description of the event (not independent clearly); (2) a simple listing that it was performed (no information other than mere existence); and (3) a review by AussieTheatre.com. The review is short and seems perfectly adequate but is that the "multiple" sources we need? WAMC has a small piece here (listen to about 10:15-10:33) which is probably better than the playwright's blog as a description (plus a bit more of how far the piece went). Views on whether the radio piece is a significant enough mention? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:26, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- If it has enough to meet WP:V, and AussieTheatre.com would seem to be fine on that score, then the inclusion is really up to the consensus of the editors per WP:NNC--each item in an article doesn't have to have multiple, independent RS to establish its own notability. Jclemens (talk) 23:17, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- "The notability guidelines determine whether a topic is notable enough to be a separate article in Wikipedia. They do not give guidance on the content of articles, except for lists of people.[7] Instead, various content policies govern article content, with the amount of coverage given to topics within articles decided by its appropriate weight." Really another interesting guideline that is also against non-notability claimers of each part of an article. Kasaalan (talk) 02:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- http://www.student.services.wiu.edu/wc/dailypostings/postings.asp?month=January&year=2009 radio show "Australian playwright Ben Ellis wrote “Blindingly Obvious Facts”, a ten minute fugue composed of what he called 'ugly' verbatim excerpt from right wing blogs discussing Rachel Corrie's death. It was performed in Australia in 2007 and 2008."
- http://www.aussietheatre.com/revshortsweet08wk4a.htm Seymour Centre Downstairs Theatre, Sydney; Short & Sweet production "I am sure that the majority of this program was selected because they are edgy, experimental and do not fit the ‘Short and Sweet mould.’ Blindingly Obvious Facts is no exception. Well-known Victorian playwright Ben Ellis has constructed this verbatim theatre piece around the controversy and online response to the death of peace-activist Rachel Corrie. Soundbytes, projections, uv lighting and grating soundtrack combine for a powerful and unsettling 10 minutes. Another daring inclusion in the program, which defies traditional linear structure, narrative, characters – and leaves those type of plays for dead."
- http://www.theartscentre.com.au/media/151010/2007%20season%20outline.pdf http://assets.theartscentre.net.au/shortandsweet/rscs/2007%20Files/All;%20SS%20Announcement%20-%20Works%20for%20Performance%20_2_%20_2_.pdf http://assets.theartscentre.net.au/shortandsweet/rscs/2007%20files/070828;%20s&s%20season%20outline%2021107.pdf 2007 production "Writer: Ben Ellis (VIC) Director: Matt Scholten A Re-Arrangement of things said for five voices about the death of Rachel Corrie, an activist who died in Israel. An online attempt at one woman's life, played out somewhere between truth and fiction by a troupe of total strangers."
- http://www.shortandsweet.org/shortsweet/sydney/program-2008/seymour-week-2 Short+Sweet Theatre 2008 production
- http://parachuteofaplaywright.blogspot.com/2006/04/ideas-and-text-body-and-rachel-corrie.html writer's blog
- http://www.humansacrificetheatre.com/glengarry/directors.htm Matt Scholten Director's notes biography mention http://mattjscholten.blogspot.com/2008/03/showscastscrews.html http://iftheatre.blogspot.com/ mention "IF THEATRE is an independent theatre ensemble based in Melbourne. This site contains information about past and current projects. Matt Scholten is the Artistic Director of the collective."
As far as I know in 2007 and 2008 it is produced in Australia. The writer's blog useful because it contains the text. Kasaalan (talk) 02:34, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- The NPR radio report says that more succinctly and I think would be a more independent source than the blog. I'll work on incorporating the sources. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 04:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
Australian playwright Ben Ellis wrote Blindingly Obvious Facts, a 10-minute fugue composed of "ugly" verbatim excerpts from right-wing blogs discussing Corrie's death.[1] It was performed as part of the 2007 Melbourne season of the Short and Sweet short play competition.[2] Sydney composer Lawrence Williams mixed a recorded version of Ellis' play for the play's Sydney Short and Sweet production in early 2008.[3]
Any proposed suggestions on this part. Kasaalan (talk) 11:58, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
- You can replace the whole think with a reference to "Episode # 1020". 51% the Women's Perspective. 2009-01-29. 10:15 minutes in. WAMC.
{{cite episode}}
: Unknown parameter|city=
ignored (|location=
suggested) (help), a more neutral source. And the source does indicate that it was performed in Australia in 2007 and 2008, so it would be like:
Australian playwright Ben Ellis wrote Blindingly Obvious Facts, a 10-minute fugue composed of "ugly" verbatim excerpts from right-wing blogs discussing Corrie's death.[4]. It was performed in Australia in 2007 and 2008,[4], including as part of the 2007 Melbourne season of the Short and Sweet short play competition.[5] Sydney composer Lawrence Williams mixed a recorded version of Ellis' play for the play's Sydney Short and Sweet production in early 2008.[6]
Better? The other sources are blogs, and generally don't fit policy. The Women's Center link is the same info from my link, but I think the direct link is better, since it includes the actual audio. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 02:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
- What you mean can you state more clearly. The artist's own blog is good for containing the text, so nothing wrong to include it along with other references, according to the guidelines. Instead 1, using 2 reference are better. Kasaalan (talk) 20:52, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Request for Comments on the inclusion of Saint Pancake
A request for comment on the Rachel Corrie article. —harej 03:52, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Issue to be resolved
"Is it appropriate to include a brief reference within the Rachel Corrie article that she has been posthumously referred to as Saint Pancake by some of her detractors?"
Participants presenting viewpoints
Opposed
- User:BlackKite
- User:Steve Dufour
- User:AniMate
- User: Bali ultimate
- User:untwirl
User:Ngchen- User:Nathan
- Hipocrite (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- User:Exxolon
- User:BusterD
Supporting
- User:Jclemens
- User:Ngchen (changed)
- User:RayAYang
Other interested parties
Statements by User:Jclemens
For reference this is the edit that prompted this discussion.
The polticization of Rachel Corrie's death was inevitable. Some praised her for her actions, and others responded by mocking the first group's affections for Corrie, who they posthumously termed "Saint Pancake". In order for Wikipedia to report on the aftermath of Corrie's death in an encyclopedic manner, that fact should be reported in a neutral manner. However, a number of editors have branded the epithet too insensitive, merely an insult, and repeatedly questioned my motivations for trying to provide balance to the article. As far as pillars and policies go...
- WP:V has been met.
- Reliable sourcing includes The Washington Independent (a Center for Independent Media outlet), Salon, and FNewsmagazine (a student publication of School of the Art Institute of Chicago). Assertions that these are trivial mentions misapply WP:N, which doesn't apply to article content.
- WP:NPOV (specifically, WP:UNDUE and WP:YESPOV) demands inclusion of minority viewpoints. Proportionate representation cannot be met by zero representation. In an article with a detailed reaction section, excluding such criticism lacks justification.
Response to Others
- Saint Pancake is political discourse, admittedly unpleasant, in that it conflates a rather gruesome image of Corrie's death ("pancake") with a critique of the media reaction to her demise ("saint" hood). Offensive though it may be, it's more akin to Feminazi or RINO than other epithets directly attacking Corrie like "terrorist-loving swine" (Which appeared in the same Salon article).
- Per WP:NOTCENSORED there is no justification for treating offensive political speech specially on Wikipedia. Various editors have expressed concerns that the epithet is in poor taste, or it might cause emotional distress to Corrie's family and friends. Be that as it may, it is our job to report on these controversies, not suppress them or bow to those who would encourage us to do so, a la Virgin Killer.
- WP:GHITS arguments miss the point: It's clearly a minority viewpoint which can be attributed to a specific group of proponents. Calling it a "tiny fringe" ignores the standard for inclusion: multiple reliable sources, and is itself WP:OR: no RS discussing "Saint Pancake" calls it minority or fringe. WP:UNDUE doesn't envision a reliably sourced viewpoint that's too small to mention.
- The DRV on the deletion of the Saint Pancake redirect is not relevant, because:
- The term has received additional reliable sourcing since then.
- Article content is different than a redirect. In this case, the term can be placed in context and attributed to reliable sources through inline citations.
- While the scope of this RfC has been narrowed considerably from the discourse above on this page, a perusal of past discussions, DRVs, and the like will show the major (yet mostly unstated) reason this inclusion is opposed: WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I absolutely respect that this content is offensive to many editors, yet I oppose efforts to use such motivations to wikilawyer the exclusion of encyclopedic content.
Statement by User:IronDuke
I've given it a lot of thought and, right now, I don't see a particular need to include this phrase. Or, to put it another way, if it was added, I would not remove it, if it was removed, I would not add it back in. If there were more notable sources that used the term, I might be persuaded to change my mind. But as it stands, not quite there. IronDuke 04:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Statements by BlackKite
I was going to post some Google stats, but I see AniMate has done so below. Even so, they actually overestimate the prevalence of the meme. To give an example, on a Google search for "Saint Pancake" only 15 of the first 20 results are about Corrie, and by the time we've filtered out multiple hits from identical sources and irrelevant hits such as posts on forums from people with that username, few hits are left, and the vast majority of those are passing mentions in blogs (usually either people using the meme to laugh at Corrie's death, or people being equally outraged that someone would do that). The search for "St.Pancake" is even more flawed, given that the phrase is a nickname for St Pancras railway station in London, and the "St." gets a lot of irrelevant hits for "Street".
The Google News stats are even more damning. Over 4,000 for "Rachel Corrie" in the archives, with practically nothing relevant for either of the epithets. We have two or three reliable sources and even those only mention the nickname in passing. This is the very definition of WP:UNDUE - "In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all." Something that has a few GNews hits as opposed to over 4,000 (or a few thousand Google hits, most of which aren't actually about Corrie, as opposed to over 500,000 for Corrie herself) fits perfectly the definition of "tiny minority", and thus shouldn't be included.
But even that's not the issue. Why would we want to include this epithet? It's not notable (we've proved that), and the original redirect Saint Pancake was deleted as a G10 attack page, and that decision was endorsed by the community at DRV. Therefore, to even include in the article looks to me like an attempt to end-run round that consensus. Wikipedia isn't a tabloid or a political blog, and such an epithet would have to be very notable - discussed in multiple very reliable sources as opposed to mentioned in passing - for us even to consider it. That hasn't happened. It isn't even close.
Responses to Jclemens
- WP:BURDEN is part of WP:V, which also states "Tiny-minority views and fringe theories need not be included, except in articles devoted to them.". This is clearly a tiny minority view.
- WP:UNDUE does not demand the inclusion of tiny-minority views - "In general, articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all."
- "Saint Pancake" is not political discourse, but an attack, as agreed by the community at the DRV mentioned above. If it was political discourse, it would be easy to find discussions of it in reliable political sources. There are none.
- Much of the claims for inclusion above hinge on the issue that the epithet is referenced in "multiple reliable sources". Leaving aside whether a student newspaper is a reliable source, the problem is the level of the coverage. Corrie is discussed in thousands of news stories - this epithet is given a passing mention in a maximum of three sources - one of which is a student newspaper and another a movie review.
- There's nothing - absolutely nothing - here that would justify a mention of the epithet here. Doing so would be on par with including absolutely every pejorative nickname for every notable person that have ever been given a passing mention in any newspaper, even once. As I said above, we don't do that - this is an encyclopedia, not a political soapbox.
Statement by Steve Dufour
- I don't think it has been established that this one expression has been used enough so that it is an important fact in this person's story. Steve Dufour (talk) 03:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
Statements by Bali ultimate
- I see no evidence that this disparaging meme from the blogosphere should be mentioned in any fashion here. To do so would be to give a fringe coinage undue weight since the only time it has appeared in a reliable source (and the only so-called reliable source we have at the moment is a film review in salon) was to use it to attack those who coined it as highly-motivated partisans without any respect or decency. Our basic standards for sourcing and weight should apply in all cases -- but special care should be taken with disparaging nicknames, whether for the living or the dead, that they are rock-solid notable and widely known so that wikipedia is not turned into a publicity-machine for such disparaging memes, rather than what it should be: A reflector of the most notable, neutral and reliable facts about people and things.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Statement by Animate
Analysis of Google hits
|
---|
St. Pancake
Saint Pancake
Rachel Corrie
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Looking at the raw numbers, this isn't a commonly used epithet. There are roughly 530,000 results for Rachel Corrie, and about 3,100 results for variations on Saint Pancake. Using my math, which is likely wrong, it looks like of all the pages discussing Corrie only .6% use this term. It is a disparaging, uncommon internet meme and has no place in this article. AniMatetalk 16:54, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'd also like to state that a consensus seems to have been reached amongst the editors on this page. One user disagrees. Is an RfC really necessary to tell one editor that a fringe epithet isn't appropriate? AniMatedraw 12:03, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Protonk (talk)
I have no involvement with this dispute (I may have voted at the DRV or commented at the AN/I post), very little IPA editing, very little editing on articles relating to US or Israeli politics. I found this RFC because I have Black Kite's talk page watchlisted. I think that we should distance this debate from the debate over the redirect. I hope that we can all understand the difference between deleting a redirect as a blatant slur against a person and removing a mention of the slur from an article. A redirect is binary, in a sense. There is no way for us to have a redirect to this subject and comment that the redirect itself represents the view of a small fraction of commentary. A redirect is also free from context--this is why we delete unpleasant or defamatory redirects to people regularly. I haven't yet decided whether or not the "nickname" (I am struggling to fit it into the loosest definition of the word) should play a small part in the article, but the decision should involve more than extending the rationale from the DRV unmodified. Protonk (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
Statement by User:untwirl
contrary to the tireless attempts by one highly motivated editor, we are not required to include an insult just because it appeared in a movie review. i think what jclemens doesn't understand about WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV is that there must be a significant minority to justify its inclusion. the people using that name are fringe, according to their proportion in reliable sources. once again, jclemens thinks it is deserving of special attention, but that is OR, not something stated or implied by the sources.
jclemens comparison to the virgin killer cover is disingenuous. we show the cover because that album is what the article is about. cover art is intrinsically a part of an album. it would be less informative to leave it out, and the controversy was covered by multiple reliable sources. grotesque blog smack-talk is not intrinsic to the story of rachel corrie. more importantly, the source he has brought gives this epithet no special status but mentions it only briefly along with other examples of "shocking verbal abuse." the fact that this tiny, vile minority exists is already in the article, WP:UNDUE explicitly prohibits listing specific examples of profane fringe ramblings. untwirl(talk) 22:26, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved User:Ngchen
Support. Pejorative terms of people are typically not placed in the lead. Otherwise we would have terms like "Billo the Clown," "Dumbya," "Fox Noise," "Robert (sheets) Byrd," etc. as parts of the leads of their articles. I don't see why this case would be any different. If reliable sources point to her being referred to in such a pejorative manner, a one to two sentence mention in the body of the article would suffice. Ngchen (talk) 18:48, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I now support including this fact as a short blurb in the body of the text, based on the fact that Wikipedia is not censored. For good or ill, the fact that she is referred to in such terms might actually have the effect of making her detractors look bad. Anyway, it's not for us to decide what to include or exclude. Ngchen (talk) 22:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Statements by User:Kasaalan
We may include the naming, or we may not, cannot really decide which is better right now, but discussing this is surely helpful in terms of wiki policies and journalism.
First of all wiki policies on this matter is not very clear, wiki lacks some clear guidelines but has so many general ones, which is why people get some many conflicts.
The naming mentioned by a couple of reliable sources, which is originated by a hundred - a couple of hundred blogs and forums. The reliable source coverage, neither none nor extensive. Same applies for originating sources, mainly personal blogs and forums of politically POV people.
It might be good mentioning the nick in freedom of information for people's right to know, and if we do we can place it under fugue part where it is relevant somehow. So if policies allows or advise, we should all consider including it seriously, whatever the outcome is.
On the other hand try not to forget, the name is a kind of hateful speech expressed by racists, also cannot be considered as a point of view or criticism. Also since this is no criticism or any point of view, including it or not including it not changes the balance of the article or neutrality. It is a technical matter and even if it is not included this time, it may be included later.
By the way, Rachel supporters sell pancakes for fund raising purposes for Palestine, while the other POV parties call her defamatory because how she died even though she stand up for how she thinks, which shows the clears difference between some racists groups and democratic ones. Kasaalan (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Animate your google search is based on somehow wrong approach
- Searching for "St. Pancake" Rachel in google = 975 and when you leave omitted results 183
- Searching for "Saint Pancake" Rachel in google
Most of these are discussing Corrieno only 320 page discusses it and when you leave omitted results it is 108
Somehow your searching approach is wrong, you should not include all search, but narrow your research by Rachel's name. There may be a couple more, yet not as much as your search results. Kasaalan (talk) 19:34, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Statement by User:Exxolon
I'm opposing. If you look at the two reliable sources there are two main problems. One, they are really trivial mentions in passing. Two - one of the sources is only talking about blog commentators, not even the blog itself and the other doesn't identify the blog in question where the epithet was used. Is it possible to argue this fact should be included based on those sources? Sure, but then we come up against the "do no harm" aspects of our policies. Multiply the triviality of the mentions times the offensiveness of the epithet the result is clearly not to include in my view. Unless/until multiple reliable sources document this in a major way I don't see how we can justify it's inclusion. Exxolon (talk) 12:40, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
If you'd like to add content to the RfC as an interested party, please do not add it here: create a section for yourself above this section. This section will be emptied when the RfC is opened for community (vs. page contributor) inputs. Jclemens (talk) 03:10, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
- Cannot understand clearly what you meant by that. Kasaalan (talk) 17:00, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
- We're constructing the RfC here, among editors who have been involved in the recent discussion. Once we're all agreed that the points have been finalized to everyone's satisfaction, then it's time to ask for broader community involvement. This is a place for others to discuss our viewpoints, so there's no need to use it yet. If you want to respond to someone else, start a section of your own, above, and place your comments there, not here. Jclemens (talk) 20:21, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
I went ahead and collapsed my analysis of google hits for the sake of readability. Mostly out of concern that users may shy away from this as "tl;dr". We want participation, and we don't want to overwhelm anybody. Anyone who disagrees has my express permission to take away the box. AniMatedraw 21:23, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Ready?
- Ok, I think I'm done. Jclemens (talk) 00:00, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
- Ditto. Black Kite 18:19, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm good, though if Kasaalan isn't going to comment, their section should probably be removed. AniMatedraw 22:30, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
I propose that I post this in 24 hours. If anyone objects between now and then, I won't. This gives everyone besides the two principal disputors a chance to hone and finalize their arguments, without unduly delaying process. If no objections are posted between now and tomorrow, I'll proceed with this. Jclemens (talk) 18:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Obsrevation by Short Brigade Harvester Boris
The best candidate so far this year for WP:LAME. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:25, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Heh. The problem with this discussion being included in WP:LAME is that's an edit-war centric page, and none of us have been edit warring over it. :-) Jclemens (talk) 02:47, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- No edit war? Really? C'mon, get it together folks. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Comment from Goodmorningworld
Jclemens asked me to comment here. In a recent AN/I discussion I opposed the inclusion of the St. Pancake appellation; then the discussion turned on a redirect. The present discussion, however, is different; it is about inclusion in the article. In my opinion, BLP articles on Wikipedia are generally too long on the wrong kind of information, namely fourth-grade information that the reader does not want to know about. This being a prime example, I would oppose inclusion. However, I am not sufficiently interested to stay around for discussion, during which I might change my mind, and so I am not putting my name down in the Oppose column.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 16:06, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Statement by BusterD
Why are we here? For the record my usual beat is 19th century US biography; I have few (if any) edits in the IPA set of subjects. I came to this discussion by accident. I was looking at User talk:Will Beback for possible comments on a suspected spammer this morning when I saw a notice on his talk referring to the term under discussion, reading more this afternoon. Much like User:DGG below, I went through some phases of thought before I chose to post. The diff User:Jclemens puts forth doesn't look that bad at first. While I am impressed with the effort User:Jclemens has made to make a case, I am less impressed with the quality of the arguments presented to make the case.
I fail to appreciate the benefit to this discussion of initially tarring many inclusion opponents as motivated by Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT. Given the enormous amount of thought clearly given this subject by User:Jclemens, such sand tossing might tend to have the effect of inhibiting the very free discussion the user requested. User:Jclemens puts forth a case that three separate independent mentions of the abuse culture-based slang contained inside comments from a partisan online organ somehow bestows notability on the slang. I disagree with this; the comments on a political website are not themselves notable; User:AniMate has made a fair statistical argument this is fringe slang, and three mentions doesn't pass my personal bar. User:Jclemens further asserts: "Proportionate representation cannot be met by zero representation." Like User:DGG says below, "...people will reasonably encounter the phrase and look here for information about how it came to be used, and we can supply it." I couldn't agree with both statements more.
I ask again: Why are we here? I assert: to create a first-rate encyclopedia. As an experienced Wikipedia reader, I would expect to find such trivial mentions, but on the talk pages (and archives) of such pagespaces, the editors rejecting the epithets as unencyclopedic. If like most pages I work with daily, the subject died a hundred years ago, I suspect the derogatory "Saint Pancake" might get a redirect, but such fringe and poorly sourced epithets would linger only in talk page archives and RfCs like this one. Not zero representation, but zero in pagespace. Discussions like DRV and this RfC suffice, IMHO. BusterD (talk) 04:33, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Discussion
Please add discussion under this heading, rather than replying to any of the participants' statements in their own areas
- Presumably this question is resolved? If not, I'm happy to add my name to "Opposing" and describe my rationale. Nathan T (formerly Avruch) 13:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, I've added myself as opposing. Given the structure of this RfC, I'm not sure if I'm expected to make a full statement? My reasoning is pretty similar to BlackKite's, although I'm not sure the DRV applies ('tho it is instructive that it was deleted as an attack page...). It's a crass nickname with a tiny constituency, not sufficient in my mind that it needs to be included in a biography. I followed this issue here from BLP/N, where a number of similar opinions were expressed. I've had a similar discussion in the past with Jclemens, I think; my view is that not all available details that can be found about a person belong in his or her biography, we are expected to use our editorial judgment to determine what is and what is not appropriate for inclusion. This isn't censorship, necessarily. It's simply being responsible about how all of our articles are written - we shouldn't give undue prominence to extremely minor (and in some respects objectionable) content. Nathan T 14:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- As a sidenote, the lopsided nature of the RfC so far will probably limit the number of editors willing to get involved. Nathan T 14:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- The consensus here is fairly strongly against. Not sure what the point of this RFC was -- you have 5 or so editors opposed, one editor vociferously pushing in favor, and that's about it. I actually ended up "involved" because the pushing on the disgusting pancake non-meme made it to some noticeboard or other.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Please read WP:CONSENSUS; consensus is not about counting noses. If we were going to try and count noses, the actual policy-based consensus is 1 to 0: no opposed editor has yet cited a reason why a reliably-sourced critique should be excluded aside from WP:IDONTLIKEIT, unless you count the WP:OR done by a number of editors which suggests it's not notable enough despite RS'ing. I'm still waiting for anyone to present evidence of similar past outcomes, ArbCom findings, or the like that support the idea that a reliably sourced viewpoint can be entirely excluded by WP:UNDUE. The RfC is me demonstrating my willingness to improve the encyclopedia in the long term, and neither to edit war nor be shouted down by editors who do not value WP:NOTCENSORED sufficiently. If you'll look at what Ngchen actually said, he in fact supported the edit as I made it, since I have never tried to put unsourced information into the article at all, nor have I tried to put the epithet anywhere other than in the reactions section. The editors who've joined this RfC after posting are split 50/50 between the viewpoints, but the one supporting the exclusion of content has made no new arguments. Jclemens (talk) 17:35, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- The consensus here is fairly strongly against. Not sure what the point of this RFC was -- you have 5 or so editors opposed, one editor vociferously pushing in favor, and that's about it. I actually ended up "involved" because the pushing on the disgusting pancake non-meme made it to some noticeboard or other.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- As a sidenote, the lopsided nature of the RfC so far will probably limit the number of editors willing to get involved. Nathan T 14:51, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- well, there are several problems with your argument. first, the sources that mention vile things that have been said about her make no special distinction of this one than any of the others. second, st. pancake is not a viewpoint. it is a slur. The viewpoint of right-wing bloggers is already mentioned in the article. and finally, many policy based arguments have been cited. your mission to insert this particular epithet could rightly be seen as WP:ILIKEIT. yes, she has been called many names by them; we say that in the article. you liking this particlar one does not justify its inclusion. untwirl(talk) 18:05, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, counting BLP/N there have been so far ten editors opposing including "Saint Pancake" and only one (Jclemens) arguing that it should be included. Are you suggesting that these other opinions are irrelevant because they conflict with your reading of policy? Nathan T 18:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you look at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive535#Rachel_Corrie, there are two more who've explicitly supported an inclusion or redirect; In BLP/N, the question of inclusion wasn't raise--just whether BLP supported the exclusion which was roundly rejected: All the "Keep it out!" comments in that thread were off-topic, as can be seen by the comments of IronDuke, Will Beback, and others. Would anyone object if every editor, regardless of their position on the topic, who's commented on a recent (last 30 days) Rachel Corrie thread on AN/I, BLP/N, or RS/N be invited to participate in this RfC? I read WP:CANVASS as specifically allowing this sort of invitation, but won't do it if anyone objects. Jclemens (talk) 20:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Since no one has objected over the last several days, I will be doing this over the weekend. Jclemens (talk) 16:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- I object. We have an RFC, we have input from a number of editors. Anyone whose page watching will have seen this. Anyone interested in RFcs will have seen this, and we've had pretty wide participation with over 10 editors opining in one way or another. There seems a fairly clear consnesus to reject your proposal at the moment.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Do you have an alternate proposal to move discussion forward? RfCs are open for 30 days, how do you propose to include other interested editors during that time period? Jclemens (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- i object to your attempt to canvass for this rfc and refusal to accept the consensus of editors who comment here. and as i said below (coming...) black kite has made his position and arguments clear. untwirl(talk) 18:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- WP:CANVASS supports transparently notifying interested editors in a neutral manner; thanks for pointing that out. Jclemens (talk) 19:52, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Jclemens has violated neither the letter nor the spirit of WP:CANVASS, unless he has done something I am not aware of. IronDuke 20:32, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- i object to your attempt to canvass for this rfc and refusal to accept the consensus of editors who comment here. and as i said below (coming...) black kite has made his position and arguments clear. untwirl(talk) 18:44, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Do you have an alternate proposal to move discussion forward? RfCs are open for 30 days, how do you propose to include other interested editors during that time period? Jclemens (talk) 16:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- I object. We have an RFC, we have input from a number of editors. Anyone whose page watching will have seen this. Anyone interested in RFcs will have seen this, and we've had pretty wide participation with over 10 editors opining in one way or another. There seems a fairly clear consnesus to reject your proposal at the moment.Bali ultimate (talk) 16:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Since no one has objected over the last several days, I will be doing this over the weekend. Jclemens (talk) 16:40, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- to jclemens -- I have made a number of what i feel are policy-based arguments on this page, both in the "rfc" section and one at greater length up above a bit. I understand that you feel such arguments are about ignoring policy and "censorship." However, the vast majority of other editors here all seem to believe that there are strong policy-based reasons not to do this (again, i understand you reject the opinion of the overwhelming majority). But at a certain point, when most good-faithed editors say policy argues against it, that looks like an emerging consensus to me. (And the opinions of those who posted after the rfc request was made don't intrinsically have greater weight than those whose opinions were expressed before however we count them up. I applaud you for not edit warring, seeking outside views, etc... But behaving appropriately and generally collegially, as you are now, does not mean you therefore should carry the day in a content disagreement.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- To Bali ultimate -- I agree that you and others have expressed opinions that cite policy, although many of those arguing against inclusion fail to address the key points, like whether WP:UNDUE can exclude minority viewpoints. I don't place special emphasis on numbers, because I hold out hope (perhaps irrationally) that there will be sufficient support for a single mention in the criticism section. The RfC is a great place to get all the opinions and interpretations on the table in a good form that doesn't cluttler the arguments with back-and-forth. Since I see it as a censorship issue, I'm not inclined to drop it--ever--no matter how many people oppose. Much like the DRV, a setback provides a roadmap for what is required for inclusion, should this come to that. Jclemens (talk) 20:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- How is undue being used to "exclude minority viewpoints?" What's being excluded is a disparaging, non-notable nickname that is as immature as it is vile and has no currency outside the rather discursive world of right wing blogs. The viewpoint that lies beneath the childish and vile nickname -- that some see her as a "misguided, ill-informed naïf" that some criticized a "cultural establishment that lionizes 'martyrs' for illiberal causes while ignoring the victims those causes create" and that others defined "stupidity... as sitting in front of a bulldozer to protect a gang of terrorists" -- is well represented in the article (those are all quotes from the "criticism" section.)Bali ultimate (talk) 17:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- You've defined "viewpoint" such that it excludes "Saint Pancake", and I disagree. Reganomics is a great example of an insult that became a cultural phenomenon and has its own Wikipedia article. Arguing that "Saint Pancake" can't ever achieve the relative cultural status of Reganomics is one thing; arguing that an insulting epithet can't be or express a viewpoint is something entirely different. The former is an interesting argument worth discussing, while the second is mere definitional artistry that I find uncompelling. Jclemens (talk) 20:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- "I'm not inclined to drop it--ever--no matter how many people oppose." wow. that sounds like you intend to disrupt against consensus. please tell me i've interpreted this incorrectly. untwirl(talk) 20:25, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Way to assume bad faith. I intend to disrupt precisely as much as I did between when the DRV was closed and I came across the Salon reference. That is, not at all. If "consensus" goes against inclusion, it can change in the future, and no topic is ever forbidden to those of us who engage politely and present policy-based arguments cogently through the proper channels. Jclemens (talk) 20:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- How is undue being used to "exclude minority viewpoints?" What's being excluded is a disparaging, non-notable nickname that is as immature as it is vile and has no currency outside the rather discursive world of right wing blogs. The viewpoint that lies beneath the childish and vile nickname -- that some see her as a "misguided, ill-informed naïf" that some criticized a "cultural establishment that lionizes 'martyrs' for illiberal causes while ignoring the victims those causes create" and that others defined "stupidity... as sitting in front of a bulldozer to protect a gang of terrorists" -- is well represented in the article (those are all quotes from the "criticism" section.)Bali ultimate (talk) 17:53, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
- I've never been involved in this page before, and came here because I noticed the RfC. I've looked through the edit history, and seen an earlier version of the page, in which the epithet was included in the criticisms of actions section. Comparing that version with the present version of that section, I do not think that the epithet added anything of value to understanding the subject. The present wording conveys very clearly the nature and tone of such criticisms. Some of the talk above seems to mention putting the epithet in the lead. I think that would be very WP:UNDUE and very inappropriate. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- To Bali ultimate -- I agree that you and others have expressed opinions that cite policy, although many of those arguing against inclusion fail to address the key points, like whether WP:UNDUE can exclude minority viewpoints. I don't place special emphasis on numbers, because I hold out hope (perhaps irrationally) that there will be sufficient support for a single mention in the criticism section. The RfC is a great place to get all the opinions and interpretations on the table in a good form that doesn't cluttler the arguments with back-and-forth. Since I see it as a censorship issue, I'm not inclined to drop it--ever--no matter how many people oppose. Much like the DRV, a setback provides a roadmap for what is required for inclusion, should this come to that. Jclemens (talk) 20:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- If you look at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive535#Rachel_Corrie, there are two more who've explicitly supported an inclusion or redirect; In BLP/N, the question of inclusion wasn't raise--just whether BLP supported the exclusion which was roundly rejected: All the "Keep it out!" comments in that thread were off-topic, as can be seen by the comments of IronDuke, Will Beback, and others. Would anyone object if every editor, regardless of their position on the topic, who's commented on a recent (last 30 days) Rachel Corrie thread on AN/I, BLP/N, or RS/N be invited to participate in this RfC? I read WP:CANVASS as specifically allowing this sort of invitation, but won't do it if anyone objects. Jclemens (talk) 20:02, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- Well, counting BLP/N there have been so far ten editors opposing including "Saint Pancake" and only one (Jclemens) arguing that it should be included. Are you suggesting that these other opinions are irrelevant because they conflict with your reading of policy? Nathan T 18:09, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- You may be the only one who is right or you may be the only one who is wrong. It is not matter if you are the only person claiming something, numbers doesn't change the case. Also I already stated we may include it under some conditions, just like we may not include it, so not only 1 person claims this may be included in the article. We may include the nick in fugue that is composed of "ugly excerpts" of right wing blogs, where it is most related. Yet mentioning in the lead is out of question. Because a mocking nick, which is a kind of hatespeech in this case, cannot be considered as a viewpoint, or criticism even it is a pun. Kasaalan (talk) 21:27, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) For clarity's sake neither I nor anyone else I've seen comment in this discussion has proposed including "Saint Pancake" in the lead of the article. All I have proposed, all I have edited, is a single reference into the criticism section. I have never tried to put it in the lead. I have never advocated that it be put in the lead. I would not support putting it in the lead. The entire issue of "Saint Pancakce" going into the lead of the article is a red herring as far as this discussion and this Rfc is concerned. Sorry if that is too forceful or redundant, but the issue keeps being mentioned and is entirely without merit. Jclemens (talk) 21:35, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- If noone argues it should be mentioned in the lead, then no discussion necessary for the lead. I don't support much, it should be under criticism section because the nick is not a criticism itself, in the first place. Also it is a derogatory pun over her death, which is highly disrespectful. Still we may include it, under the fugue part where it is most related, might be better if it will be included. Kasaalan (talk) 21:49, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
It appears that User:Black Kite has declared that he has left the project. As all of you aware, such departures may be temporary or permanent. Until such time as he sees fit to return, it might help if other opponents of including "Saint Pancake" were more vocal/active in this RfC. Jclemens (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Don't see the relevance here. He made his views known, as have a bunch of others. In my case, i've made my case, and see nothing more to be added from my side. Black Kite made his -- and is de facto not making additions at the moment. Other editors who have made their views known, may also feel that they've sufficiently said their bit. It's not clear to me how black kite's departure, for however long or short, is relevant at the moment.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- If one were counting noses, his would be absent. More relevant, if everyone else opposed is expecting him to take the lead (since his is the first and longest of the opposed positions), it would be unfair for me to notice and not bring that to your attention--consensus is not to be arrived at by apathy, but by good faith engagement. Jclemens (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- his "nose" isnt absent. he humored you for far too long imo. he was actively engaged in discussion prior to this rfc and made a statement in it. no one needs to take the lead in a circular discussion with you for this rfc to proceed properly. a "request for comment" does not require the editor to check back here and argue with you during an active rfc. really, just accept the consensus that is here now, or the when the rfc closes if you prefer, but don't try to discount black kite's arguments retroactively because he isn't here to argue with you ad infinitum. i also feel i have stated my case succintly and dont see the point of continuing to engage with one user on a mission. untwirl(talk) 18:50, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- If one were counting noses, his would be absent. More relevant, if everyone else opposed is expecting him to take the lead (since his is the first and longest of the opposed positions), it would be unfair for me to notice and not bring that to your attention--consensus is not to be arrived at by apathy, but by good faith engagement. Jclemens (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
- Don't see the relevance here. He made his views known, as have a bunch of others. In my case, i've made my case, and see nothing more to be added from my side. Black Kite made his -- and is de facto not making additions at the moment. Other editors who have made their views known, may also feel that they've sufficiently said their bit. It's not clear to me how black kite's departure, for however long or short, is relevant at the moment.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
(out) I have strong opinions about biographies of people (one of them is that "living" should not be the line that is drawn), and tend to dislike placing information in which is specifically defamtory. That said, if her supporters use pancakes for fundraising, it would appear that this particular reference is less defamatory than I originally thought. I suggest that any reference to "Saint Pancake" also include a contiguous reference that the term is accepted by supporters, and is not considered specifically defamatory. This is, indeed, a change from my original position. Collect (talk) 23:40, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure I agree with the argument that if supporters use it, it must not be defamatory - but can you point me to where her supporters use the nickname for fundraising? Nathan T 23:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Nathan--I'm not sure that anyone really used it in that manner. I think you may be referring to Onion-esque satire that someone took too seriously, but I'm willing to be convinced I'm wrong. Jclemens (talk) 23:54, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to an earlier comment which appreared to make such a claim. Hence my "if." My tendency overall is not to include defamatory material without cause in any biography. WP has a substantial and real problem with articles which include such stuff because an editor insists that if a "source" can be found, that it is "censorship" not to include it. I record one such historical example at User:Collect/BLP where I continue my statement about where I feel the lines ought to be drawn. Collect (talk) 02:34, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
Just tasteless. Adds nothing of value to an encyclopedia article. A basically unused phrase. Hipocrite (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- Three different reliable sources currently document its use. What threshold of reliable sourcing would you propose as sufficient grounds for inclusion? Jclemens (talk) 00:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Jclemens asked me to comment, but he cannot have been sure what I would say. I was not sure myself until I read through all the discussion above: I've gone through 4 phases on this. The first, naturally, was utter and total disgust. Jclemens argues above that this is less abusive than the direct attacks, but I disagree--nastiness of this sort can be much more damaging. The prominence of using the epithet as a redirect was wrong, but I said at the Deletion Review that it should nonetheless have been discussed at Rfd, not done via speedy. In essence, though, it was discussed enough at the Del Rev to show clear consensus for rejecting it. The second was support of the general argument of noncensored--I have sometimes advised discretion in how something is used, but otherwise upheld the principle that anything legal can be used if necessary except for true privacy violations of private indfividuals. And I've certainly said that BLP is irrelevant to the dead, in conformity with US though possibly not UK law. But then I looked at the stats above for the web search, and I agreed with them, that the use was so scarce that the main use might be in fact Wikipedia & derivatives. But finally, I looked at the Salon article--it should not have been written as " Salon noted..."; Salon does not itself say anything. it should have been worded as "O'Hehir said in Salon ...". (O'Hehir, a notable film critic, was discussing the film made about her and used it incidentally to set the background.). Similarly, the use in the Independent is as background for a profile by a good correspondent of a notable conservative blogger--who he characterizes by saying, among other things, that he did not use that phrase; the Independent is a reasonably responsible publication. I consider both uses by good writers as indicating that the phrase will be widely recognizable. This leads me the the conclusion that we must include it: people will reasonably encounter the phrase and look here for information about how it came to be used, and we can supply it. And I can even justify this to my own ethical views outside of WP by saying that to any reasonable person the use of this term will say a great deal about the person who uses it. I therefore support inclusion, though not in the lede. DGG (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Strongly support inclusion For reasons outlined earlier. People interested can take a look at Talk:Rachel Corrie/Archive 11. RayTalk 20:24, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
- and the rebuttal to your argument was policy: WP:NOTCENSORED: Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. the "equally suitable alternative" is the description of the criticism that is already in the article. untwirl(talk) 02:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- So... Wikipedia should cover racism by talking about "the N word"? Blood libel by talking about "certain anti-semitic allegations"? Fact is, naming an offensive word or phrase once in the most pertinent place is an encyclopedic function that cannot be substituted by euphemisms designed to protect the sensibilities. Using either of the examples I've just given or "Saint Pancake" indiscriminately would be as wrong as not using them at all. Jclemens (talk) 05:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- you are inflating that "nickname" to the same level of coverage as nigger or blood libel? huh? not even comparable. maybe where you're from it is a popular meme, but most of the rest of the world has never heard "st pancake". if we wanted to dig up every foul name that public figures were called on right-wing blogs and try to include them in their article, well, that wouldn't be very encyclopedic or appropriate. WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE still stands. untwirl(talk) 14:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- WP:UNDUE demands representation in proportion to presence in reliable sources. Three are currently known and generally accepted for the use of Saint Pancake. Things originating in inherently non-notable areas (YouTube, etc.) become inclusion-worthy when they are mentioned in reliable sources, and their origin is only relevant if that is the only place where they appear.
- Personally, I'm not too offended that you used "the N word" when we already knew what we were talking about, but if the expectations applied to me by opponents of the inclusion of describing Corrie's being called "Saint Pancake" were applied to you, you would be accused of being a racist. Jclemens (talk) 00:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- Jclemens, since you want to discuss this in terms of "the N word", (but act shocked when Untwirl uses the word) lets stick with your reasoning and consider a real analogy. There were many, MANY racists who referred to Martin Luther King by "the N word". And this wasn't in publications like student publications of the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. Here's a Time magazine article quoting his killer as using it in 1976: Time Magazine. And yet strangely enough we don't seem to see him named this way in the WP Martin Luther King article, do we? Even though it was a VERY COMMON epithet used for him and was used in RS publications such as Time. So I'll make you a deal - when you introduce "the N word" (as used by Untwirl) into the Martin Luther King article, and when you spend as much time defending its use there as you have spent here, then I will believe that you are sincere in your desire to get "balance" into this article and I will support your including "St. Pancake" here. Fair enough? But until then, Opposed. Jgui (talk) 02:34, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
- you are inflating that "nickname" to the same level of coverage as nigger or blood libel? huh? not even comparable. maybe where you're from it is a popular meme, but most of the rest of the world has never heard "st pancake". if we wanted to dig up every foul name that public figures were called on right-wing blogs and try to include them in their article, well, that wouldn't be very encyclopedic or appropriate. WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE still stands. untwirl(talk) 14:48, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- So... Wikipedia should cover racism by talking about "the N word"? Blood libel by talking about "certain anti-semitic allegations"? Fact is, naming an offensive word or phrase once in the most pertinent place is an encyclopedic function that cannot be substituted by euphemisms designed to protect the sensibilities. Using either of the examples I've just given or "Saint Pancake" indiscriminately would be as wrong as not using them at all. Jclemens (talk) 05:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
- and the rebuttal to your argument was policy: WP:NOTCENSORED: Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available. the "equally suitable alternative" is the description of the criticism that is already in the article. untwirl(talk) 02:13, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
Pictures of Corrie on Commons
After he removed the post-crush picture from the article User:MSJapan has nominated it for deletion at Commons. Following up on this after I noticed it, I also see that four of the six images that appear inCommons Category:Rachel_Corrie don't seem to have adequate author/permission info. I've posted to the original uploader, but does someone else who's been associated with the topic longer have any idea who BBS News is? They don't have an article, nor is there a deleted article I can see in the history. Complicating things, the original uploader seems to be rather inactive and hasn't edited since January, IIRC.
The three other photos that have this issue are The infobox picture, and two from the reaction section. Their loss would seriously impair the article--please help find accurate sourcing and permissions info. Jclemens (talk) 19:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
this is the site where those photos were from. it looks like they gave permission. untwirl(talk) 19:57, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- They gave permission for Wikipedia--Commons licensing is quite a bit stricter, and I didn't see any documentation that they were released "for any purpose"--the Evergreen one seems to almost say the opposite. Jclemens (talk) 20:14, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, and I'm facepalming for not finding that--thank you. I was too fixated on the redlink and assuming that they'd had an article and it was now gone. Jclemens (talk) 20:21, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
- Actually this copyright issues are widely used for non-inclusion of photographs you don't like. Maybe we should ask permission from the copyright holders directly. One of the original copyright holder posts Rafah Today Photo News Report for Rachel Corrie and Tom Hundall the page contains heavy blood by the way. Kasaalan (talk) 12:46, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
A Note to All Deleters Who Did not Bothered to Post the Removed Content in Discussion Page
The same article goes on to report what happened the next day at the very spot where Corrie was run over:
"As the memorial service got under way, the Israeli army sent its own representative. A tank pulled up beside the mourners and sprayed them with tear gas. A bizarre game of cat-and-mouse began as the peace activists chased the tank around to throw flowers on it, and the Israeli soldiers inside threatened, in return, to run them down. The game ended when the Israeli bulldozers came out, accompanied by more APCs, firing guns and percussion bombs. The insult was as clear as the danger of the situation and the people went home, the service halted."
This notice especially goes for you animate. If you have an issue with wording change them, you are the one that having the issue after all, removing all the paragraph, then expecting the other editors do all the work, including creating relevant discussion title and posting removed content, furthermore claiming other people have sticked the paragraph to the context hoping it fits is not a good approach. Especially when you are not bothered to read the paragraph, or even if you read but cannot understand why it contains valuable info. There are so many edits going on, when you remove info and not posting what you removed at discussion page, is not helpful. Yes it is not my job to create all the titles, if you like to remove a complete paragraph, at least try posting the info you removed, in discussion page under a proper title, so other editors can work on them in the meanwhile. When you remove info it may be very well left unnoticed, between so long edit traffic. Kasaalan (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Kasaalan, I do not think this text goes into this article at all. It seems to be a WP:COATRACK that attempts to make the IDF look even worse. If included, it should be phrased in a neutral way that doesn't include commentary. (e.g., the last sentence). Overall, if this article were The death of Rachel Corrie rather than a pseudo-bio, its inclusion might be more warranted, if balanced appropriately. Jclemens (talk) 15:17, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the removal of this material (removed it myself a day or two ago when inserted by an IP). That direct quote at that length, does not belong.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:09, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Propose an edit if you want better wording or do not remove relevant content by a reliable source, which is not exceptionally wrong anyway. It explains what happened, with a comment on how she feel, it just needs paraphrasing, but you remove info because you don't like it, then expect others to do all the work. If you feel it needs better wording why don't you do it yourself. Or at least create a discussion title here yourself.
- So do The Guardian or The Observer is to blame, what the full quote related to the IP except he added it, it is fully quoted from The Observer article Making of a martyr, reading your comments I first assumed IP did the writing himself, yet no, it is a fully published document by a reliable source. A full quote of the impression of a journalist, where a tank appeared in a funeral with tear gas. I don't care if it looks IDF bad, actually you shouldn't care either, I care what happened and how. Kasaalan (talk) 19:45, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Anyway forget it I will do the job, discussing not helps, I will edit myself. Kasaalan (talk) 19:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- So far it appears three other editors disagree with you (me, jclemens and one other, I think animate). So don't ignore this consensus and "edit myself" since "discussing not helps." Long quotes of one journalists analysis of the aftermath of an event like this one would seem well past undue in this kind of article.Bali ultimate (talk) 20:07, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Anyway forget it I will do the job, discussing not helps, I will edit myself. Kasaalan (talk) 19:52, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- Quantity not matters, the quality of the argument matters. I will not blockquote it I will edit it myself as I clearly stated above. So no counter consensus is available on my edit, since I haven't edited yet. Biased is your own argument so try not to represent it as a fact. You are simply wrong on number of journalists being only one. Actually if you read the related articles, you can easily learn 2 different journalists and 1 artist, from 2 different sources, including The Observer which is a highly reliable reference, were describing the exact same process involving tanks and tear gas usage in a memorial ceremony where she died, and the day after she has been crushed. What do you expect, when IDF uses tear gas in a funeral memorial and even sent the exact same bulldozer that crushed Rachel Corrie 1 day ago, a more neutral tone that "doesn't show IDF as bad", sure. Kasaalan (talk) 21:27, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The edit as it stood has been clearly rejected, with simple and clear explanations from those that disagree with you. I can't offer an opinion about edits as yet unmade (and i don't see anyone else has either). But i'd remind you that this is meant to be a bio for Corrie, not a WP:coatrack for ongoing bad behavior by the IDF in gaza or anywhere else (i tend to believe the idf has behaved terribly in many circusmtances, and some mention of teargas at her funeral might be worth a one senctence mention, but that exstensive discussion of events beyond her life do not belong in a bio).Bali ultimate (talk) 23:34, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
- (outside comment, I came here from a discussion at ANI about a Rachel Corrie fork) That quote is inadequate because of the personal commentary from a source whose opinion is not notable in this context. Make a summary of what happened at the funeral. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
- The edit as it stood has been clearly rejected, with simple, clear and wrong explanations, personal commentary you all refer is only involved in last sentence. Coatrack has nothing to do with the article. Also the "summary" will be same length as the paragraph if you mention all of the actions anyway. But I will do the edit, The Observer is highly reliable source, also it is supported by 1 other magazine reference. So unless anyone came up with an article that claims no tear gas usage or any other actions that referred in the article involved, we will mention all the necessary details. I have other jobs, I read the 2 articles but I will edit when I have free time. Kasaalan (talk) 13:40, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Songs and Poems Dedicated to Rachel Corrie
Songs and Poems Dedicated to Rachel Corrie Click blue button at right to see Table and Notes. There is another deletion review at Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2009_May_19#Public_reactions_to_death_of_Rachel_Corrie Deletion Review by Public reactions to death of Rachel Corrie
Also you should somehow state opinions on how the song or poem implementations will be made into main article. We may somehow implement, political reactions to the main article. Yet, there are more than 30 songs devoted to Rachel Corrie from 30 different professional artists (while half of them highly notable and famous, some others not much famous) all around the world, and we have a good table representing the songs. Yet without creating a separate title, it is not much possible to implement the table, and artist comments into the main article, since we have length and reference number limitations according to the guidelines. Only the song table is based on near 30 references itself. So my question is, is it advisable to create a List of Songs Dedicated to Rachel Corrie or List of Songs (and maybe Poems) Written for Rachel Corrie for dedicated song tables, and artist comments on why they wrote a song on Rachel Corrie. Kasaalan (talk) 13:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- They're already in the article, probably at too much length. Please don't add any more to the 25 odd songs already mentioned in the article as being about corrie. I would be strongly opposed to more detail, mention on that. Just nuke the table now. It's not ever going to be added to a BLP, and why should it? While it's useful to mention that people were touched by and wrote songs about her death, a matrix of dozens of entirely non-notable songs is distracting trivia, at best. Bali ultimate (talk) 14:38, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't agree with you. First, only the names of the artists-groups mentioned in the article currently. No song name mentioned, no date or album info is included. More importantly no reference for artists' comments on why they wrote a song about Rachel Corrie. Also I am not asking for a full implementation into the main article, it would become too long for main article. So I am asking others' opinions for a separate List of Songs (and maybe Poems) Written for Rachel Corrie article. Also you claim non notability, but half of the artists already have world wide notability. You can easily tell that if you are interested in music. Kasaalan (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Also she is not a living person, and numerous of historical figures has Artistic Depictions Titles under their article. Especially read Cultural depictions of George Washington and Cultural depictions of Elvis Presley. Urbain_Grandier#Artistic_depictions Tommy_Douglas#Artistic_depiction Kisaeng#Literary_and_artistic_depictions. Actually I don't even know a wiki guideline that objects Artistic Tributes to Rachel Corrie and the opposing parties haven't proved any yet. Kasaalan (talk) 20:48, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hasn't this already been decided with the Artistic tributes to Rachel Corrie Afd. In fact, weren't there two AfDs and a DRV for articles that were essentially about this exact same topic. AniMatedraw 23:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't nominate for drv this time, but last afd was closed in 3 days, so there was a lack of time to discuss the issues anyway. Yet near none of the main page editors joined the discussion or stated any opinions on the matter yet. There were a majority of consensus on separate public reactions page in first afd so admin verdict deletion of the page yet suggested a public reactions page possible, I tried to create one by moving the page and broadening the topic, removed afd tag, it immediately renominated this time majority of votes were in favor of deletion of the article since it perceived as a work-around action for last afd, so merging the relevant content into main article is in progress, so other main page editors' efforts matter on this issue. We have artistic tributes' content consisting of a detailed table for more than 30 songs written about Rachel Corrie, artists' comments and poems written for Rachel Corrie, along with some politicians comments, that is not available in the main article. So you should somehow state your opinions on which content may be merged or a separate Artistic Depictions of Rachel Corrie page possible according to the guidelines. Kasaalan (talk) 10:46, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
- Hasn't this already been decided with the Artistic tributes to Rachel Corrie Afd. In fact, weren't there two AfDs and a DRV for articles that were essentially about this exact same topic. AniMatedraw 23:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
(Click blue button at right to see Table and Notes on Songs and Poems Written for Rachel Corrie) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Songs dedicated to Rachel Corrie
NotesAround the world more than 30 songs written and dedicated to Rachel Corrie between 2003-2008, by musicians including Patti Smith, Alice Shields, Mike Stout, Billy Bragg, composer Philip Munger, David Rovics, Christy Moore, Dawud Wharnsby Ali, it:Alessio Lega, Pol MacAdaim, Lorcan "Larry" Otway, Holly Gwinn Graham, Agnese Ginocchio, es:Ángel Petisme, Stephanie Lee, Brad Postlethwaite, Hilary Sloan, Elizabeth Hummel with Carl Dexter, Valerie Webb & Paul LaBrecque and musical groups including Klimt 1918, Ten Foot Pole, The Can Kickers, Project Qua Project, it:Casa Del Vento, My So-Called Band, I Can Lick Any Sonofabitch in the House, Lyra and Friends, The Blue Ribbon Tea Company, The Gram Partisans and The Zachary Jones Band. [38]
William Bechtel from The Zachary Jones Band later said ""The Ballad of Rachel Corrie", written after ZJB bassist "Red" had emailed me an article re: Ms Corries' unfortunate demise with the heading, "This is an outrage! Something should be done!" Thus challenged, I wrote the song, recorded the tracks (acoustic guitar, dobro, and vocals) and mixed the project at Audiolab, then had the song duped onto cd-rs and ready to mail out to indie radio stations all over North America within two weeks time. The harmonies on the last choruses on the track were each written by one.of the session's participants; I wrote one, Wendy Mae invented another, and engineer Josh came up with the third. (Can't remember which order they're in, tho'..)"[23] Italian rock band Klimt 1918 noted their song named Rachel is dedicated to Rachel Corrie, "Rachel Corrie was an International Solidarity Movement militant from U.S.A., who was crushed to death by an Israeli bulldozer while she was trying to oppose the demolition of Palestinian settlements in the Gaza Strip. She gave her life for the rights of an occupied land as it's Palestine; her story moves us so much to write a song that could describe it. The song begins with a dance riff and very straight vocals. Gradually, the fell changes and emotional depth grows. The ending is melancholic and disenchanted, just like the fate of this American girl." in an interview following to a question how the idea of dedicating their song to Rachel Corrie came to life.[20] Mexican singer/songwriter Stephanie Lee from New Mexico, was awarded the New Mexico Music Industry Award for Best Vocal Performance in 2006 for this song about Rachel Corrie from her album One Little Seed, released in 2005. [42]
Poems
References
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