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Who decides what is a cult or sect and what not? It is of course a problem of semantics, just like the Catholic and Protestant interpretation of the same Bible with different semantics. A Spanish dictionary gives Islam as example of a sect, but whatever dictionaries say, what most people understand by “cult” and “sect” is a 1) more or less small religious group with 2) a specific life-style, 3) usually living separately in a community, 4) following a set of rules, as the Merriam-Webster mentions, usually "extreme" and 5) where freedom is often more limited than for believers of traditional, large, standard religious churches. |
Who decides what is a cult or sect and what not? It is of course a problem of semantics, just like the Catholic and Protestant interpretation of the same Bible with different semantics. A Spanish dictionary gives Islam as example of a sect, but whatever dictionaries say, what most people understand by “cult” and “sect” is a 1) more or less small religious group with 2) a specific life-style, 3) usually living separately in a community, 4) following a set of rules, as the Merriam-Webster mentions, usually "extreme" and 5) where freedom is often more limited than for believers of traditional, large, standard religious churches. |
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Prem Rawat has clearly and repeatedly declared that his Knowledge is not a religion nor a philosophy, |
Prem Rawat has clearly and repeatedly declared that his (inner) Knowledge is not a religion nor a philosophy, does not ask anyone to stop or start believing anything, no dogmas, no rules, no rituals and no liturgy. Many feel respect and veneration for him, but also for Nelson Mandela, etc. |
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Prem Rawat does not |
Prem Rawat does not ask to change lifestyle nor beliefs, lives from his own money, and “his” organization accepts donations just like Greenpeace, otherwise there is no organization, no events, no speeches, no people feeling better, and no humanitarian projects in disaster areas by an organization independently audited and declared to be of a high standard of transparency and accountability, as detailed in the corresponding website. |
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All Prem Rawat asks, not requests |
All Prem Rawat asks, (not requests) is to practice at least one hour every day, alone, at home, in silence. I see this closer to a club than to a sect Osho Baghwan style. Both were born in India but there is almost nothing else in common. How easily we generalize. Many do not have the willpower to follow the advice (expecting, with wishful thinking, it will work in a magical way in a few hours, weeks or months, despite having promised to practice all their life, then they feel restless, because only meditation can calm the mind and bring peace, and then blame him. They should read Swami Sivananda, who said you need an "adamantine" willpower for meditation, or Paramahansa Yogananda, who adviced to practice AT LEAST two hours per day, and 5 hours on Sundays. Prem Rawat has not invented anything, this was "invented" a long time ago, he just explains in a simple way, for all kinds of people, what Yogananda and others explained as "spiritual technology" for intellectuals --[[User:Pedrero|Pedrero]] ([[User talk:Pedrero|talk]]) 17:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC) |
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== Honor: Prem Rawat Day == |
== Honor: Prem Rawat Day == |
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Anyone wanting a scan of the newspaper article, pls email me. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 23:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC) |
Anyone wanting a scan of the newspaper article, pls email me. [[User:Jossi|≈ jossi ≈]] <small>[[User_talk:Jossi|(talk)]]</small> 23:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC) |
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Prem Rawat has been in hundreds of places, but one, Corleone, is considered by some the most important place he has been. Why? Because the maffia is there. Speeches in famous universities, or his early times wit the hippies have little significance for some, but having been in Corleone is |
Prem Rawat has been in hundreds of places, but one, Corleone, is considered by some the most important place he has been. Why? Because the maffia is there. Speeches in famous universities, or his early times wit the hippies have little significance for some, but having been in Corleone, even once for a speech of one hour, is the key event of his life. You see what you want to see and do not see what you do not want to see. And did he go there after all? I have heard and read all kinds o fthings in the 34 years I know Prem Rawat, lots of them nonsense. The newspaper says only they had invited him, and can we trust the newspapers of the land of the maffia? And if he did go, is not peace what the land of the maffia needs? --[[User:Pedrero|Pedrero]] ([[User talk:Pedrero|talk]]) 17:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC) |
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::yes the land of the mafffia is very important, Rawat belongs to Corleone [[Special:Contributions/89.247.40.215|89.247.40.215]] ([[User talk:89.247.40.215|talk]]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 18:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
::yes the land of the mafffia is very important, Rawat belongs to Corleone [[Special:Contributions/89.247.40.215|89.247.40.215]] ([[User talk:89.247.40.215|talk]]) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|undated]] comment was added at 18:25, 15 September 2008 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
Revision as of 01:40, 21 September 2008
Prem Rawat was a Philosophy and religion good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Former good article nominee |
This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||
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- This talk page contains numerous non-archive subpages involving past disagreements, including: /Bio, /Bio proposal, /Bio proposal/talk, /Bio proposal nr2, /Bio proposal nr2/talk, /Comments, /GA Review March 07, /GA review 1, /Teachings, /Teachings (draft), /criticism, /lead, /temp1, /TPRF
- Sources: /scholars, /journalists, /WIGMJ, /First person accounts, /Lifestyle, /Bibliography
- Related talk of a merged page: Talk:Criticism of Prem Rawat (and archives of that talk page: Archive 14 • Archive 13 • Archive 12 •Archive 11 • Archive 10 •Archive 9 • Archive 8 • Archive 7 • Archive 6 • Archive 5 • Archive 4 • Archive 3 • Archive 2 • Archive 1)
New subsection for "Reception" section (proposal)
To be inserted after the "Charisma and leadership" subsection
===Cult leader?===
Rawat has been termed a cult leader in popular press reports,[1][2] and anti-cult writings.[3] Associating Rawat with the term "cult leader" is disputed on several grounds:
Further, that possibly unclear aspects in this sense (for example referred to as "Hindu/Indian trappings")[6][7] were removed by the early 1980s at the latest.[8] The discussion of whether or not the movement has cult-like characteristics is at least partially a semantic discussion. For instance, Maeve Price and Roy Wallis distinguish between sects and cults, where the first is characterized by epistemological authoritarianism and the second by epistemological individualism, from which Price concludes that the term sect is more indicated in the case of the Divine Light Mission.[9] General reference sources may however use the word cult in connection to Rawat's movement without such distinctions.[10] At least formally, Rawat was not the leader of most organizations around him: when he became Satguru for the adherents of DLM in India in 1966, the practical leadership of that organization remained in the hands of his family members for several years to come, and would become consolidated as such in 1974.[11] The DLM organization founded in the United Kingdom in 1970 was controlled by his mother for the first years of its existence.[12] The U.S. DLM was not founded by Rawat either (he was still a minor at the time), and even after it had been reformed to Elan Vital in the early 1980s Rawat was not formally its leader.[5] In general terms, however, Rawat's leadership with regard to the movement around him is asserted in most sources.[13][14] |
The refs are maybe still a bit sketchy, but hopefully clear enough. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- "Associating Rawat with the term "cult leader" is disputed on several grounds:" is ridiculously NPOV. No one is "associating" they are saying he was/is a cult leader!
- "Disputed on several grounds?" Serious POV push. Why not just report the facts, like: "And other disagree, saying: <nice ref>, <nice ref>." Hohohahaha (talk) 23:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
According to Merriam-Webster, CULT is “a system of religious beliefs and ritual; a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious” and SECT is “a dissenting or schismatic religious body, especially one regarded as extreme or heretical; b: a religious denomination”.
If a cult or sect is a “system of religious beliefs and rituals” or a “dissenting schismatic religious” body, a club of para-psychologists, UFO fans, spiritists, organizations of pscychological or spiritual studies, etc. are not sects. Who decides what is a cult or sect and what not? It is of course a problem of semantics, just like the Catholic and Protestant interpretation of the same Bible with different semantics. A Spanish dictionary gives Islam as example of a sect, but whatever dictionaries say, what most people understand by “cult” and “sect” is a 1) more or less small religious group with 2) a specific life-style, 3) usually living separately in a community, 4) following a set of rules, as the Merriam-Webster mentions, usually "extreme" and 5) where freedom is often more limited than for believers of traditional, large, standard religious churches.
Prem Rawat has clearly and repeatedly declared that his (inner) Knowledge is not a religion nor a philosophy, does not ask anyone to stop or start believing anything, no dogmas, no rules, no rituals and no liturgy. Many feel respect and veneration for him, but also for Nelson Mandela, etc.
Prem Rawat does not ask to change lifestyle nor beliefs, lives from his own money, and “his” organization accepts donations just like Greenpeace, otherwise there is no organization, no events, no speeches, no people feeling better, and no humanitarian projects in disaster areas by an organization independently audited and declared to be of a high standard of transparency and accountability, as detailed in the corresponding website.
All Prem Rawat asks, (not requests) is to practice at least one hour every day, alone, at home, in silence. I see this closer to a club than to a sect Osho Baghwan style. Both were born in India but there is almost nothing else in common. How easily we generalize. Many do not have the willpower to follow the advice (expecting, with wishful thinking, it will work in a magical way in a few hours, weeks or months, despite having promised to practice all their life, then they feel restless, because only meditation can calm the mind and bring peace, and then blame him. They should read Swami Sivananda, who said you need an "adamantine" willpower for meditation, or Paramahansa Yogananda, who adviced to practice AT LEAST two hours per day, and 5 hours on Sundays. Prem Rawat has not invented anything, this was "invented" a long time ago, he just explains in a simple way, for all kinds of people, what Yogananda and others explained as "spiritual technology" for intellectuals --Pedrero (talk) 17:30, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Honor: Prem Rawat Day
This statement was removed due to lack of supporting documents. Also raising the concern that person reading out the official statement and handling the award is not known. I searched around on internet and found following news:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1156446.cms
Also regarding the person who hosted the opening and closing session of the event (and presented the award to Mr. Rawat) is:
Bill McCarthy, Administrator
UN 60th-CUltural and Educational events
President, Unity Foundation.
You may find the evidence in linked video at 02min 12 sec. Here the person himself speaks his introduction on the stage, to the people sitting in the UN hall. This is wiki of a living person, and such achievement should definitely be included in the content.
--Taxed123 (talk) 18:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, it was deleted due to a lack of notability. Virtually every day in San Francisco is designated to honor somebody or something. Aside from a nice plaque it doesn't mean much. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:15, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- i am not sure if this award is given 'every day'. But for a wiki of person, this is one of the most notable recognition in his life and should be put on the wiki. When we have such events mentioned as "Rawat went to the Detroit city hall to receive a testimonial resolution praising his work, but was pied by a reporter... " which happened over 30 years ago, more so highlights the importance of recognition mentioned above by me.
--Taxed123 (talk) 18:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- Jossi recently brought to our attention an article in La Sicilia reporting that Rawat spoke in Palermo and was awarded an honorary citizenship there. That event appears to have been well sponsored, and perhaps better meets our notability criteria. If there have been other, similar events reported in reliable sources, let's hear about them. I agree with Will that the SF event was not notable – it does not appear to have been reported by a single SF paper. (The Times of India simply picked up a TPRF press release and ran with it.) Jayen466 19:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- FYI, the previous discussion of this was at Talk:Prem Rawat/Archive 37#Gavin Newsom. As for the La Sicilia article, it's not clear that it isn't a press release too. The best way of handling this sort of thing may be to just list them in a sentence. As for the Detroit honor, that wouldn't have been notable either if it weren't for the pie throwing. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- Las Sicilia is not a press release in looking at the thumbnail I have of the newspaper. As I said, I will provide a PDF of it once I get hold of it. If you want me to email you the thumbnail, pls ping me in my talk page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:11, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Addition of Minor Speaking Engagements
I have removed Jayen466's addition of two of Rawat's minor speaking engagements in Sicily, as it would set a precedent for adding new ones every time he speaks. I think the article already makes clear he continues to deliver regular addresses on peace. --John Brauns (talk) 15:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- I thought it was noteworthy because the article (Jossi sent me a pdf of it) mentions sponsorship by the Italian president. I note that Rawat seems to have good political connections in Italy – a former Italian premier (and former president of the European Parliament) wrote the intro to Cagan's Rawat biography. Jayen466 17:11, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- It is normal for notable current events to be added to BLP, sometimes eventually replaced by more recent or notable events in future. However, this engagement in Sicily does appear to be quite minor and as such of questionable notability. In researching this, I note that in 2007 Rawat directly addressed the Italian parliament; a much more notable event that has not been captured in his biography. The 2007 address of Italian parliament was noted by mainstream English language press and TV news broadcasts are on youtube. Savlonn (talk) 03:19, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, if you can provide the English language press reports, and they are reliable sources. --John Brauns (talk) 08:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
- Care needs to be taken when dealing with self promoting entities to ensure that what is claimed, is actually true. In the case Savlonn raises "addressed the Italian Parliament" acutally is only 'spoke in a hired room in the Italian Parliament building'; one of the sponsors appears to be admitted cocaine user Emilio Colombo - perhas that does add notability. The event can be viewed here [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8ETzrAktzM
- I oppose the addition to this article of any 'recent notable events' not contextulised within a reliable English language source, until the disputed neutrality tag can be legitimately removed. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:01, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- The reason I've taken a couple of days to follow up this is when I attempted to do the 'reliable sources' due diligence on this with this, I came up empty handed. I can't vouch for Nik's claim that the presentation was in a 'hired room', but at the same time I certainly can't vouch that this was an 'official' presentation to the Italian Parliament sponsored by the Italian Government, as implied within the videeo. I am also surprised that my follow up research failed to find cororborating reliable sources expected for a 'notable event'. As such I must retract my initial claim that Rawat "Directly Addressed the Italian Parliament", along with my support to include this event in the Biography. Savlonn (talk) 17:19, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
- Discussion moved in from Talk:Bibliography_of_Prem_Rawat_and_related_organizations#La_Sicilia
Source: DIGNITY AND PROSPERITY FOR PEACE, La Sicilia, July 2nd, 2008. Translated from Italian original: ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
<snip (for copyright reasons, see below) Francis Schonken (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC) > ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Full text <snip (for copyright reasons, see below) Francis Schonken (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)> ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Full text <snip (for copyright reasons, see below) Francis Schonken (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)> ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC) Snipped per policy (Wikipedia:Copyrights): don't link to works that constitute a possible copyright infringement. The translator is unknown, so the translation can neither be fair use, nor GFDL. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:41, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Shortened per Wikipedia:Non-free content#Text. Please explain which point needs to be illustrated, which context established, or which point of view or idea attributed by this quotation.
Also, if giving a translation, please either indicate where the translation was published, or provide the text in the original language too, per WP:V#Non-English sources. --Francis Schonken (talk) 17:43, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- The original Italian text is in the newspaper,I can provide a PDF if needed, Submitted as another source for this list, and as possible source for the main article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, Wikipedia:Non-free content#Text applies to articles, the full text was provided here so that editors may assess the material as we have done with many other media articles. See for example Talk:Prem Rawat/scholars ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:25, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Please explain which point needs to be illustrated, which context established, or which point of view or idea attributed by this quotation.
- Wikipedia:Non-free content#Text applies. --Francis Schonken (talk) 18:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Who did the translation? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- In other words: the copyright holder of the translation is unspecified: this makes it impossible to publish this translation under either fair use or GFDL at Wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Copyrights. See below for a Wikipedian's translation of a message with similar content. --Francis Schonken (talk) 06:01, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
A related source: http://www.siciliainternazionale.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=334&Itemid=106 ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:57, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Here is a translation, for reference:
World lecture on peace by Prem Rawat on July 2nd in Corleone
Saturday, 28 June 2008
PALERMO - From a place sadly famous for its acts of crime, to the world capital of peace in just one day. Prem Pal Singh Rawat (photo), known by the honorific Maharaji, will be in the Palermo Province town to deliver a lecture entitled "Peace – a message without borders". The event will have illustrious sponsors, taking place under the auspices of the Presidency of the Republic, the Ministry of Equal Opportunities, the Department of Justice, the Ministry of the Environment and the Region of Sicily.
As part of the event, Prem Rawat will receive an honorary citizenship of the City of Corleone, acknowledging the importance to the Corleone population of a major event that extols peace as the supreme value for the hopes of humanity. "It is with immense pride that we welcome Maharaji Rawat to Corleone to speak about peace", declared Mayor Dr. Antonio Iannazzo. "In an age in which the values of humanity and brotherhood among nations are held to be of vital and fundamental significance, I think it's extremely important that a master of life capable of speaking directly to the soul should be able to share his thoughts with the people of Corleone. Hence Corleone, the capital of peace, rather than the notorious capital of crime. It's an important milestone on the way to the rebirth and redemption of my city." Giuseppe Cardella, councillor and local organiser of the event in Corleone, agrees. "I have had the fortune to attend one of Prem Rawat's lectures and can say with absolute confidence that he knows how to speak to a person's heart. I feel incredibly lucky to have been given the opportunity to organise an event of such significance to Corleone. I would like to thank Dr. Pietro Scutari for his invaluable assistance, as well as all the Italian organisational staff of the Prem Rawat Foundation."
- Italian is not my strongest suit, but I think I got the gist of it. Jayen466 10:33, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- This talk page of the Bibliography article regards the discussion of what and how we list in the Bibliography:
- La Sicilia article: we'd need the newpaper article's title in the original language, and if possible a page number for the article. Can these be provided?
- Re. article on the SiciliaInternazionale website: it is unclear to me what credentials this webite has (seems like a chamber of commerce type of website, but couldn't really determine it from the website alone)
- Neither of these articles appears to have a clear lead section, so I don't suppose we'd be quoting from these articles in the Bibliography. Thoughts?
- The other discussion: what part of the content of these articles may be eligible to base content for Rawat-related articles upon: I'd move that part of the discussion (and quotes) to Talk:Prem Rawat/journalists. --Francis Schonken (talk) 08:55, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- As I said, I will provide the full text in the original Italian. Note that it is August and it is almost impossible to find anyone in Italy that has not gone for "un settimana al mare". So it may take a few days before I get a response. As for the use of this source in the articles, I don't know. We are nor discussing many of the other sources in this page, so I do not understand why we need to discuss this. I am sure it could be used, leave that to you guys. I understand that the La Sicilia article had a lede, I will confirm this when I get a scan of the page. I know that it had some photos as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Please make up your mind:
- "Submitted [...] as possible source for the main article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)"
- "[...] I do not understand why we need to discuss this. [...] ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:26, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Nobody is helped by ambiguous messages. The talk page of the Bibliography article is not the appropriate place to discuss inclusion of the content in other articles. [...] --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Anyone wanting a scan of the newspaper article, pls email me. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:09, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
Prem Rawat has been in hundreds of places, but one, Corleone, is considered by some the most important place he has been. Why? Because the maffia is there. Speeches in famous universities, or his early times wit the hippies have little significance for some, but having been in Corleone, even once for a speech of one hour, is the key event of his life. You see what you want to see and do not see what you do not want to see. And did he go there after all? I have heard and read all kinds o fthings in the 34 years I know Prem Rawat, lots of them nonsense. The newspaper says only they had invited him, and can we trust the newspapers of the land of the maffia? And if he did go, is not peace what the land of the maffia needs? --Pedrero (talk) 17:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
NPOV tag
For some reason there is an editor who is making edits without logging in, and is repeatedly removing the NPOV tag. Due to the history of the article, of the ArbCom case, and of the recent MedCab case, it's clear that some editors feel this article has problems with neutrality. Rather than edit-warring anonymously, I urge this editor to sign in and post his or her concerns here. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:13, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
AFD for The Prem Rawat Foundation
Editors of this article may be interested in giving their opinions at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Prem Rawat Foundation. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:35, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
And another AfD
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bibliography of Prem Rawat and related organizations --Francis Schonken (talk) 03:01, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Deleting 'aviation interests'
Unlike a lot other contents of this article, these had at least something to do with the biography’s subject, so I don’see any additional value in deleting, especially without discussion. Reverted.--Rainer P. (talk) 05:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
References (please keep this section at the bottom of the page)
- ^ Callinan, Rory. "Cult Leader Jets In to Recruit New Believers: Millionaire cult leader Maharaj Ji is holding a secret session west of Brisbane this weekend" in Brisbane Courier-Mail. September 20, 1997
- ^ Mendick, Robert. "Cult leader gives cash to Lord Mayor appeal" in Evening Standard. London, 2007-05-31, p. 4. At HighBeam Research
- ^ Rhodes, Ron The Challenge of the Cults and New Religions: The Essential Guide to Their History, Their Doctrine, and Our Response, Ch. 1: Defining Cults. Zondervan, 2001, ISBN 0310232171, p. 32.
- ^ Price 1979
- ^ a b "Correction" in The Daily Californian. May 1, 2003.
- ^ Stoner and Parke 1977, p. 77
- ^ Barret 2003, p.65
- ^ Downton 1979: "...Changes in terminology were made in an attempt to divorce the Mission from its Indian trappings..."
- ^ Price 1979
- ^ "Maharaj Ji" in The Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Biography. U.S., 2003, ISBN 061825210X, p. 994
- ^ Melton 1986
- ^ Price 1979
- ^ Army Pamphlet 165-13 1978
- ^ Melton et al 1993