NikoSilver (talk | contribs) →Comments: enough! |
|||
Line 154: | Line 154: | ||
:::Read the whole of it Garnet. I bolded parts above. Avoid [[WP:ATTACK]]s. Take this as a warning. I've had enough of this! [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 15:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC) |
:::Read the whole of it Garnet. I bolded parts above. Avoid [[WP:ATTACK]]s. Take this as a warning. I've had enough of this! [[User:NikoSilver|Niko]][[User talk:N!|Silver]] 15:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC) |
||
::::You should probably report him, Niko. [[User:Kékrōps|·ΚέκρωΨ·]] 15:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:20, 21 December 2006
![]() | Greece B‑class Top‑importance | |||||||||
|
Request for Comment: Article name
This dispute is mainly regarding the use of the term genocide in the article's title, versus proposed variations with terms such as massacres, deportations, and ethnic cleansing. There was a recent mediation, a dispute resolution, and a straw poll, all coupled by a huge debate. The article is presently protected due to edit-warring regarding the {{POV-title}} tag. 01:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Statements by editors previously involved in dispute:
Statement by NikoSilver
- The poll ended with consensus in one of the numerous options, namely Pontic Greek genocide. The other options were either opposed, or marked with no consensus.
- The initial debate was that the "acts" defined in genocide were not sourced. At present the article has practically every sentence cited by independent, verifiable, reliable sources.
- The debate later evolved as to if it is original research to assume that the facts to their extent provide adequate reason to name the article as such. A response was provided here. Academic sources explicitly or inexplicitly stating it was a genocide were also provided. Namely:
Note: Only third party sources are included here. For all sources, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Academic views on the issue. For eyewitness quotes, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Eyewitness accounts and quotes. For recognition, check Pontic Greek Genocide#Recognition.
- Turkey, still struggling to achieve its ninety-five-year-old dream of becoming the beacon of democracy in the Near East, does everything possible to deny its genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontian Greeks.[1]
- democide against the Greeks...genocide...347,000 dead[2]
- systematic extermination...annihilation...in a persistent campaign of massacre
Note: Term "genocide" had not been coined yet.[3] - compared experience to the Holocaust[4]
- series of massacres, pertinent to the Armenian Genocide[5]
- ethnic cleansing[6]
- ^ Cohn Jatz, Colin Tatz (2003). With Intent to Destroy: Reflections on Genocide. Essex: Verso. ISBN 1859845509.
- ^ "Statistics of Democide". Chapter 5, Statistics Of Turkey's Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources.
{{cite web}}
: Unknown parameter|accessmonthday=
ignored (help); Unknown parameter|accessyear=
ignored (|access-date=
suggested) (help) - ^ Horton, George (1926). The Blight of Asia. Indianapolis: The Bobbs-Merrill Company.
- ^ Steven L. Jacobs, Samuel Totten (2002). Pioneers of Genocide Studies (Clt). New Brunswick, New Jersey. p. 213. ISBN 0765801515.
{{cite book}}
: Text "publisher: Transaction Publishers" ignored (help)CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) - ^ Creating a Modern "Zone of Genocide": The Impact of Nation- and State-Formation on Eastern Anatolia, 1878–1923, by Mark Levene, University of Warwick, © 1998 by United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
- ^ Norman M. Naimark, Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth-Century Europe, Cambridge and London: Harvard University Press, 2001.
- For a comparative analysis of the academic sources, kindly refer to this section.
- Various NGOs recognize the events as a genocide.
- Apart from the (obvious) recognition by Greece and Cyprus, the events have been recognized by the states of South Carolina, New Jersey, Florida, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and Illinois. New York State issued a proclamation designating May 19, 2002 as Pontian Greek Genocide Remembrance Day.
- Apart from Turkey, no other country has explicitly expressed they dispute the genocide thesis.
- Google searches:
- Pontian genocide -wikipedia: 17,700 hits
- Pontian massacres -wikipedia: 11,600 hits
- Pontian ethnic cleansing -wikipedia: 1,190 hits
- Pontian deportations -wikipedia: 720 hits
- Note: These google results are included only to illustrate the relative preminence of the used terms (i.e. which is more popular). There are, of course, other searches that produce millions of results, such as:
- Greek genocide -wikipedia: 1,120,000 hits
- Hellenic genocide -wikipedia: 135,000 hits
- For a previous analytical reasoning regarding the tag removal, kindly refer to Archive 2#Why the tags should not stay.
Please read the article and decide for yourselves. For the reasons stated above, this summary supports that the title should include the term genocide.
NikoSilver 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Statement by A.Garnet
My position has been since the beginning that this article does not reflect academic opinion. It is recognised by Greece, written by Greek editors and supported by Greek editors. None of the sources are credible, none of the scholars notable, not one monograph can be found to its name, not one journal article, not one encylopedic article - in short it is the culmination of a few scraps of sentences in which a non-notable author has used the term Pontian greek "genocide" and original research whereby a number of quotes are being used to prove the genocide thesis.
You only have to look at the "Background" section, the section supposedly dealing with this genocide, to realise how poor the academic material in support of this article is. It is so poor that they rely on sources from a different location (Asia minor as opposed to Pontus) and from different people (Aegean Greeks and Turkish Jews as opposed to Pontian Greeks). So nowhere in this article do we have one ounce of explanation as to how these Pontian Greeks were supposodly exposed to genocide by Turks, simply becauase our Greek editors cannot find any research material on this beyond a few sentences which use the term Pontian Greek genocide.
Lets look at some of the arguments used to justify the title. Firstly, there was no consensus on the title whatsoever. Do not try and justify the collective votes of a number of Greek editors to mean a consensus, it is anything but. Consensus is achieved in reaching an agreement with disputing parties, not reaching an agreement with people who already agree! The fact is not only do all of the Turkish editors disagree, but a number of admins and third party editors have also raised questions and opposed the current title.
Another arugment used: "Apart from Turkey, no other country has explicitly expressed they dispute the genocide thesis." This is really quite a childish argument. It assumes non-recognition outside of Greece and Cyprus (i really do want to see a proper source that Cyprus recognises it) to somehow mean silent worldwide recognition. Well surely if recongition was so forthcoming you would be able to present me with one monograph from one notable historian. They ask for sources opposing a genocide of Pontians before they provide any credible or substantial sources which support it! This whole attitude is sheer nonsense and one employed to defend and indefensible position.
Also, as for the supposed recognition of American states, as another Greek editor proved, these resolutions are of little academic or political weight. Anybody can file a resolution, in fact one of "genocide" resolutions is mentioned next to happy birthday wishes for an old granny! They are, as Mackracis put, an embarassment to this article. Furthermore, on the topic of NGO's, the most notable of all NGO's dealing with genocide, the Association of Genocide Scholars, does not recognise this event as genocide, nor do any of the scholars associated with.
Let us also put those Google searches into perspective:
- Holocaust -wikipedia 29,700,000
- Rwandan genocide -wikipedia 1,340,000
- Bosnian genocide -wikipedia 1,300,000
- Armenian genocide -wikipedia 1,190,000
- Pontian genocide -wikipedia 17,700!
Now have a look at those 17,000 results, all it shows is that there a lot of Greeks on the internet like the editors here who are using the term Pontian greek "genocide". None of these superficial arguments count for anything Nikos, nothin detracts from the minority nature of this thesis and the complete lack of notable scholarly research, no matter how many straw polls you initiate or how many Greek editor revert the article.
Put simply, this article is a minority view. If the editors insist on defending it, then they will have to accept that the pov-title tag is here to stay until it is renamed and rewritten. Just to add i wont be here from Friday onwards, but i think i've made my argument pretty clear here.
Some sources:
- Mazower (these deportations were on a relatively small scale and do not appear to have been designed to end in their victims' deaths.)
- Midlarsky (Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option) Book review:
- Valentino ("the Turks did not seek to exterminate the Greeks, as the previous regime had done to the Armenians") [p. 296 -- Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide in the Twentieth Century]
- Levene "Unlike the Armenian case, in each of these other instances the scope, scale and intensity of the killings was limited, though this does not rule out comparison." — "... I have concentrated here on the [genocidal sequence affecting Armenians and Kurds only], though my approach would be pertinent to the Pontic Greek and Assyrian cases." — "Historians ... tend to avoid the term genocide to describe them." --A.Garnet 02:54, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Straw Poll
Users who support or oppose the inclusion of the word "genocide" in the title, should sign below with a brief comment in the respective section. Comments longer than one line belong to the #Comments section below. Only registered users with more than 50 edits prior to Dec 10, 2006 00:00 UTC are eligible to vote. Comments are welcome by anyone in the #Comments section. Template:MultiCol
Support
- NikoSilver 10:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Mitsos 12:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- The attempt to trivialise or downplay the Pontians' suffering can only be described as sickening. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
| class="col-break " |
Oppose
- Per A. Garnet. I will also include a statement later on.. Baristarim 12:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- With all due respect to both sides of the dispute, I don’t think that it is a prevailing scholarly view to regard these events as genocide. Grandmaster 12:41, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Comments
Pending another post of a longer view I would like to propose that this article to be renamed to Pontic Greek exodus that will cover the fate of Pontic Greeks since the article has included, over the editwars, many references to the Pontic Greeks who went to Kazakhstan etc. Genocide thesis should be talked about in the article. The genocide thesis is recognized by only Cyprus and Greece, and this should raise a few red flags. The case here is similar to Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide, with the latter redirecting to the former that includes a section on the genocide controversy. Also remember that this article was deleted two months ago from German Wiki for being a hate page. I am not proposing deletion, since I respect content as a general rule. Therefore I propose that this article be renamed, and the genocide thesis mentioned in a seperate section with a mention of Cyprus and Greece recognizing a "Pontic Greek Genocide". Baristarim 12:39, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
And its recognition by six US states doesn't mean much either. Mississipi had a law until the 70s that said that it was OK to kill a Mormon. So, I don't understand why they are even mentioned. Baristarim 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
"Also remember that this article was deleted from German Wiki for being a hate page" These Germans and their hate laws... "Mississipi had a law until the 70s that said that it was OK to kill a Mormon." So what??? Mitsos 12:44, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- What is the point of another straw poll? I mean who are you trying to kid, we are here to build consensus, not demonstrate the voting power of Greek editors (demonstrated nicely by the afd on Kurdish genocide). --A.Garnet 13:47, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Look Garnet, by persistently adding {{POV-title}}, you have repeatedly violated consensus as it was already demonstrated three times already:
- In Mediation
- In dispute resolution, and
- In last straw poll
- I refuse to accept your tag in this legitimate article that has been scrutinized by dozens of editors for the tinyest detail. You have a point though: Indeed, just "another straw poll" is probably not enough to combat your persistence...NikoSilver 14:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Look Garnet, by persistently adding {{POV-title}}, you have repeatedly violated consensus as it was already demonstrated three times already:
- I dont understand you Nikos, why do you lie and distort like this? You know damn well there was not an ounce of consensus for this title outside of the Greek editors who backed it. I do not recall one Turkish editor supporting this title, in fact i do not recall one third party editor bar Awiseman who explicity supported it. Where is this consensus you keep going on about? The only consensus i saw was your idea to place the pov-title tag until we agreed on the current name or a rename, none of which has happened. --A.Garnet 14:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- So you accept the historical reality of the Armenian Genocide, then? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:17, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I accept its academic notablity and scholarly support gives it a legitimate place on Wikipedia. Unlike this. --A.Garnet 14:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Another false distinction. Genocide was committed against the Christian population of the region as a whole; the Armenians bore the brunt. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe then you could tell me why an eminent historian such as Mazower or Midlarsky deny any genocide of Greeks but support the Armenians? Are they Pontian genocide deniers? --A.Garnet 14:32, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Another false distinction. Genocide was committed against the Christian population of the region as a whole; the Armenians bore the brunt. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:27, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I accept its academic notablity and scholarly support gives it a legitimate place on Wikipedia. Unlike this. --A.Garnet 14:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I dont understand you Nikos, why do you lie and distort like this? You know damn well there was not an ounce of consensus for this title outside of the Greek editors who backed it. I do not recall one Turkish editor supporting this title, in fact i do not recall one third party editor bar Awiseman who explicity supported it. Where is this consensus you keep going on about? The only consensus i saw was your idea to place the pov-title tag until we agreed on the current name or a rename, none of which has happened. --A.Garnet 14:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Kekrops, avoid the straw man. Asking such questions are irrelevant. Mitsos, who has voted for support is a white supremacist, as admitted in his user page. Why don't you ask him if he thinks that blacks are inferior to whites for example? People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So don't even try to attack others positions by making them look like some genocide-denying Nazi. You should be asking to Mitsos what he thinks of Jews, since you seems to adore asking other peoples' opinions on things that don't concern this article. Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- What question? There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that the events constituted genocide. I think you're the one who needs to avoid the strawman; you've just associated the opposing side of the debate with white supremacism. By the way, your description of Chinese territory as "still Turkish" on your user page reads like an homage to pan-Turkism/Turanism, an equally dangerous ideology as far as I'm concerned. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:03, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for that; do you have the Mazower reference (book, article)? Politis 14:45, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Have an article: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n03/mazo01_.html --A.Garnet 14:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Did someone suggest 'Exodus'??? Is this a Bob Marley song :-?. But seriously, we can just about apply the term 'exodus' to the population exchanges between Bulgaria, Greece, Turkey, etc. But in Pontus there was used to be an ancient and thriving Greek community; after 1915 and the 1920s it came to an end with many tens of thousands killed. Buildings, churches, archives, art works were burnt. For Greeks, this was nothing less than a genocide (not a tragic population exchange or the direct outcome of war). The perpetrators were mostly Ottoman troops and Kurdish irregulars. So at the very least we have a series of Massacres and pogroms. Politis 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Really? See the Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide.. Hmm.. That's interesting, they redirect to the same article under the first article. I can find sources that say that there was a genocide of Native Americans by the truckload. However, the article is still not named "genocide", since there is no academic and scholarly concensus. The case at hand is even worse: Not only that there aren't enough sources (a few books, couple of interpretations of second-hand eye witness accounts, and recognition by Greece and Cyprus (gees, GR and CYR, how can that happen? :))), but there is not at all an academic concensus. Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, here is a secret how block editing can be generated: every User name has a 'User contributions' link; by clicking onto it, you can follow what a User with similar interests is editing; if you see something relevant, you add your own comment... Politis 14:30, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- I know. I generately can find things of interest by myself however.. That might be true for someone who is new to Wikipedia, but it is nothing but desperation for an experienced editor.Baristarim 14:40, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
The Population history of American indigenous peoples and Native American genocide. They redirect to the same article under the first article, since there is no academic concensus. Plus, this article was deleted in the German Wiki for being a hate page. Nikos, concensus in a small straw poll dominated, unfortunately by Greek editors is not sufficient. It might interest you to know that many non-Greek and non-Turk editors, admins included, also oppose the title, however they are afraid to come in because of the block-lobby of some people (guess who? any AfDs anyone?) Nobody is saying this content to be deleted, however you also have to understand that you cannot impose a minority POV to the rest of Wikipedia. Baristarim 14:49, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- For Midlarsky, I prefer this review [1] (thanks Garnet). Nice quotes by his reviewer (Robert M. Spector-Worcester State College):
- "deals with mass murders in the twentieth century that could have but did not evolve into the author's definition of genocide".
- "In part three, having narrowed the meaning of genocide and identified the perpetrator's conditions for genocide, Midlarsky applies his analysis to Turkey..."
- "It is regrettable that Midlarsky does not deal more with prevention of genocide, which is the ultimate purpose of studying the subject."
- Again why lie and distort? The full quote: "Part five of the book deals with mass murders in the twentieth century that could have but did not evolve into the author's definition of genocide: Jews in Bulgaria and Finland during World War II, Greeks in Turkey, and the Irish in the British Empire." I dont see what is here that you would prefer, how explicit do you want it. --A.Garnet 15:13, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Read the whole of it Garnet. I bolded parts above. Avoid WP:ATTACKs. Take this as a warning. I've had enough of this! NikoSilver 15:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- You should probably report him, Niko. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:20, 21 December 2006 (UTC)