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:::::::::::::::::::::: @Tgeorgescu . Your answer is really .... strange, to be polite, considering I was inviting others to proceed on investigating the claims of those discoveries. I was not merely showing a picture and stating: "See, it's displayed here, so it must have happened". |
:::::::::::::::::::::: @Tgeorgescu . Your answer is really .... strange, to be polite, considering I was inviting others to proceed on investigating the claims of those discoveries. I was not merely showing a picture and stating: "See, it's displayed here, so it must have happened". |
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:::::::::::::::::::::: @Borsoka : good for you for not debating anymore. "Please remember: the development of the name of the Criş from ancient Crisius would be in line with the phonetical evolution of Romanian". Your claims are based on a few "fellow" scholars, as I can base a lot of claims on my "fellow" scholars, and indeed the debate would go on forever. Finding (more) archaeological proof, by contrast, can destroy any scholar claim and present the real truth. That is one of my initial points of this talk. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/78.97.130.24|78.97.130.24]] ([[User talk:78.97.130.24#top|talk]]) 07:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
:::::::::::::::::::::: @Borsoka : good for you for not debating anymore. "Please remember: the development of the name of the Criş from ancient Crisius would be in line with the phonetical evolution of Romanian". Your claims are based on a few "fellow" scholars, as I can base a lot of claims on my "fellow" scholars, and indeed the debate would go on forever. Finding (more) archaeological proof, by contrast, can destroy any scholar claim and present the real truth. That is one of my initial points of this talk. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/78.97.130.24|78.97.130.24]] ([[User talk:78.97.130.24#top|talk]]) 07:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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== Simon of Kéza == |
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Simon of Kéza's text is the following, according to its authoritative English translation: "These Székely are in fact remnants of the Huns, and when they found out that the Hungarians were returning to Pannonia, they came to meet them on the borders of Ruthenia, and then joined with them in the conquest of Pannonia and acquired part of the country. However, this was not in the plains of Pannonia but in the mountains, which they shared with the Vlachs, mingiling with them, it is said, and adopting their alphabet." Gyula Kristó's translation of part of the same text is the following: "According to [Simon of Kéza], the Székely, "together with the Vlachs, received their part among the mountains of the frontier region." Nothing proves that Kéza thought that the Vlachs had lived in the mountains before the arrival of the Székelys. [[User:Borsoka|Borsoka]] ([[User talk:Borsoka|talk]]) 14:42, 22 December 2017 (UTC) |
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Definitely is too extreme
@123Steller: A subjective statement is exactly that Romanian has definitely Latin origins. In fact it used to be a blend of Slavic and other languages until the 19th century when the united country invented and imposed a Romance identity in contrast to its neighbors. Notice that Vlachs in Ukraine and Poland are nowadays Slavs. Propositum (talk) 03:40, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
@Propositum: It's unbelievable for me that a "researcher from one of the leading universities" questions the fact that Romanian is a Romance language. 123Steller (talk) 11:04, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
@123Steller: We should simply avoid so strong statements, because the ethnogenesis is complex. Propositum (talk) 22:48, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
- Propositum, language and ethnicity aren't always linked. Do you have any reliable sources that dispute the fact that Romanian has Latin origins and is in fact a Romance language?TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit (talk) 23:58, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- To clear the matter: most words from Romanian are of Slavic origin (neologisms excepted), but the basic vocabulary is of Latin origin. There were indeed Romanian intellectuals who sought to super-Latinize the language, but these efforts have imho failed. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:18, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
- The sentence which we are discussing is explicitly about the language. The origin of Romanian has been always doubtful and you can read about this for example here: Lucian Boia, Romania, London 2001, p. 53-58.
- @TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit: When will you answer (excuse me for forgiving to sign my last comment)? Propositum (talk) 17:06, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Too many extremists from Hungary commit here attacks against Romanians. Suckpuppits like TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit|TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit] were several times under discussion in the Board of Wikipedia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.118.94.221 (talk) 10:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- Eurocentral, you should not make comments here, because you are banned from WP. Please also try to understand that there is still a rift between your imagination and real world. You are obviously unable to understand that the comment above by TrixAreForKidsSillyRabbit does not suggest that he/she is an extremist from Hungary. Borsoka (talk) 10:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
New campaign of irredentists
A new campaign of irredentists started in these pages. They use false data and original research to restore the domination of minority over majority. False data are used in order to support irredentist theories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.118.94.221 (talk) 10:12, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- Eurocentral, you should not make comments here, because you are banned from WP. Please also try to understand that there is still a rift between your imagination and real world. Borsoka (talk) 10:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
New archaeological discoveries supporting the Dacic continuation
Hello All, I have read a relatively recent article about a site in Nyiregyhaza where a 3rd century Dacic settlement was found, proving that the Dacians had been in the Pannonia plain before the arrival of the Huns. The article is here: https://positivenewsromania.com/2016/01/14/archaeologists-discover-new-evidence-concerning-the-dacian-tribes/ . If anyone is willing to help investigate more the archaeological site or bring some more sources to this, we should start a very serious discussion about reconsidering the weight of the Origin theories. Have a nice day to all !
- What is the connection between a non-Romanized tribe and the origin of the Romanians (who speak a language with quite obvious links to the Latin language)? Or do you want to discuss how the Hungarians of the Pannonia plain were partially descended from non-Romanized Dacians? Borsoka (talk) 15:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
- Although I don't enjoy your needless sarcasm regarding the origin of the Hungarians, I will answer as best as I can to your question: One of the theories states that the Huns didn't find anyone in the Trans-Carpathian region when they came. Clearly the region, even extending to Pannonia, was not empty even in the third century, that was my point, supporting the continuation theory. Who tells you they were non-Romanized by the way, can you determine what language that "tribe" (actually ex-Dacian empire, to be more historically correct) spoke ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.97.130.24 (talk) 23:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- Which theory says that the Huns did not find anyone in the Carpathian Basin or Transylvania? The territory was obiously inhabited by Getae, (non-Romanized) Dacians, Vandals, Goths, ... What one of the theories says that there is no evidence that any Latin/Romance-speaking population survived in the territory until the 10th century. The new discovery does not challenge this theory. Borsoka (talk) 02:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- So what happened to the Getae etc found by the Huns ? Were they "Hungarized" ? How come we (in the Carpathian basin) are not all speaking Hungarian if the Latins migrated as late as the 10th century ?
- (1) They were Germanised, Slavicized, Avarised. (2) Because the immigration of the Vlachs began in the 12th century and it continued untill the 21st century. Please remember neither were the Transylvanian Saxons Magyarized, although they settled in the province in the 12th and 13th centuries, and their immigration did not last for nine centuries. Borsoka (talk) 01:27, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- I think you are missing my point. If they were Germanised etc. as you claim, when Dacia was overtaken by the Roman Empire, well, then the Dacians were Latinised, using your line of thought (and historical evidence). The Romanian people are speaking a Romance (Latin) language and, "coincidentally", are situated exactly on the place where the biggest battles between Rome and Dacia took place.... so they must have been here quite some time before the 10th Century. The Transylvanian Saxons were not Magyarized indeed, mostly probably because of the ethnic composition of the land (Romanians, Magyars, Saxons) - even under the Habsburgic rule over Transylvania, the interdiction to have schools in the native language, the trials to impose Catholic religion, the other groups were not Magyarized. This alone says something about the numbers and culture strengths of the other groups . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.90.110.122 (talk) 10:44, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- (1) They were Germanised, Slavicized, Avarised. (2) Because the immigration of the Vlachs began in the 12th century and it continued untill the 21st century. Please remember neither were the Transylvanian Saxons Magyarized, although they settled in the province in the 12th and 13th centuries, and their immigration did not last for nine centuries. Borsoka (talk) 01:27, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- So what happened to the Getae etc found by the Huns ? Were they "Hungarized" ? How come we (in the Carpathian basin) are not all speaking Hungarian if the Latins migrated as late as the 10th century ?
- Which theory says that the Huns did not find anyone in the Carpathian Basin or Transylvania? The territory was obiously inhabited by Getae, (non-Romanized) Dacians, Vandals, Goths, ... What one of the theories says that there is no evidence that any Latin/Romance-speaking population survived in the territory until the 10th century. The new discovery does not challenge this theory. Borsoka (talk) 02:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- Although I don't enjoy your needless sarcasm regarding the origin of the Hungarians, I will answer as best as I can to your question: One of the theories states that the Huns didn't find anyone in the Trans-Carpathian region when they came. Clearly the region, even extending to Pannonia, was not empty even in the third century, that was my point, supporting the continuation theory. Who tells you they were non-Romanized by the way, can you determine what language that "tribe" (actually ex-Dacian empire, to be more historically correct) spoke ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.97.130.24 (talk) 23:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
- What is the connection between a non-Romanized tribe and the origin of the Romanians (who speak a language with quite obvious links to the Latin language)? Or do you want to discuss how the Hungarians of the Pannonia plain were partially descended from non-Romanized Dacians? Borsoka (talk) 15:18, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
My photo could be used as evidence, for example, to determine if 1) the water was higher than last week or 2) the winter ice was gone 3) the boat race was on some other lake or 4) if aliens were waterskiing that day. But, until you advance some relevant theoretical claim a photo is just a photo—it is not “evidence.”
— Karl W. Giberson, My Debate With an ‘Intelligent Design’ Theorist
- Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- According to one of the theories of the Romanians' ethnogenesis, their ancestors lived under Roman rule for more than 700 years in the lands to the south of the Danube. The lands to the north of the Danube were under Roman rule for less than 170 years, while German peoples dominated the same territory for almost 300 years. Please remember that the Romanians adopted the names of the major rivers in Transylvania from the Hungarians, Slavs and Saxons, which is quite strange if we assume the Romanians' continuous presence in the territory. Please remember that the oldest Romanian chronicles wrote of the Vlachs' immigration to Hungary. Please remember that 17th-18th-century Transylvanian laws emphasized that the Vlachs had been "admitted into the country for the public good". Please remember that the first Romanian translations of the Bible were published in Transylvania in the 17th century. Please remember that Catholic Romanian priests initiated the Re-Latinization of the Romanian language in the 18th century, etc. Yes, between 1867 and 1918, there was an official policy of Magyarization: do you really think that those four decades could annihilate the consequences of a continuous immigration which had begun in the late 12th century? However, Tgeorgescu is right: we should not debate the concurring theories here. I only wanted to emphasize that the fact that Dacian/Carpian.. groups lived in the Carpathian Basin in the late 4th century, does not contradict to any of the theories about the Romanians' ethnogenesis. Sorry, I will not continue the debate. Borsoka (talk) 14:01, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- What I mean by "theoretical claim": one has to cite a reliable source preferable used by other scholars, not just a random website without serious editorial control. But since so many pieces of this puzzle are missing, it is unlikely to be solved any time soon. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- @Tgeorgescu . Your answer is really .... strange, to be polite, considering I was inviting others to proceed on investigating the claims of those discoveries. I was not merely showing a picture and stating: "See, it's displayed here, so it must have happened".
- @Borsoka : good for you for not debating anymore. "Please remember: the development of the name of the Criş from ancient Crisius would be in line with the phonetical evolution of Romanian". Your claims are based on a few "fellow" scholars, as I can base a lot of claims on my "fellow" scholars, and indeed the debate would go on forever. Finding (more) archaeological proof, by contrast, can destroy any scholar claim and present the real truth. That is one of my initial points of this talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.97.130.24 (talk) 07:04, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
- What I mean by "theoretical claim": one has to cite a reliable source preferable used by other scholars, not just a random website without serious editorial control. But since so many pieces of this puzzle are missing, it is unlikely to be solved any time soon. Tgeorgescu (talk) 14:49, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- According to one of the theories of the Romanians' ethnogenesis, their ancestors lived under Roman rule for more than 700 years in the lands to the south of the Danube. The lands to the north of the Danube were under Roman rule for less than 170 years, while German peoples dominated the same territory for almost 300 years. Please remember that the Romanians adopted the names of the major rivers in Transylvania from the Hungarians, Slavs and Saxons, which is quite strange if we assume the Romanians' continuous presence in the territory. Please remember that the oldest Romanian chronicles wrote of the Vlachs' immigration to Hungary. Please remember that 17th-18th-century Transylvanian laws emphasized that the Vlachs had been "admitted into the country for the public good". Please remember that the first Romanian translations of the Bible were published in Transylvania in the 17th century. Please remember that Catholic Romanian priests initiated the Re-Latinization of the Romanian language in the 18th century, etc. Yes, between 1867 and 1918, there was an official policy of Magyarization: do you really think that those four decades could annihilate the consequences of a continuous immigration which had begun in the late 12th century? However, Tgeorgescu is right: we should not debate the concurring theories here. I only wanted to emphasize that the fact that Dacian/Carpian.. groups lived in the Carpathian Basin in the late 4th century, does not contradict to any of the theories about the Romanians' ethnogenesis. Sorry, I will not continue the debate. Borsoka (talk) 14:01, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
- Quoted by Tgeorgescu (talk) 12:50, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
Simon of Kéza
Simon of Kéza's text is the following, according to its authoritative English translation: "These Székely are in fact remnants of the Huns, and when they found out that the Hungarians were returning to Pannonia, they came to meet them on the borders of Ruthenia, and then joined with them in the conquest of Pannonia and acquired part of the country. However, this was not in the plains of Pannonia but in the mountains, which they shared with the Vlachs, mingiling with them, it is said, and adopting their alphabet." Gyula Kristó's translation of part of the same text is the following: "According to [Simon of Kéza], the Székely, "together with the Vlachs, received their part among the mountains of the frontier region." Nothing proves that Kéza thought that the Vlachs had lived in the mountains before the arrival of the Székelys. Borsoka (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2017 (UTC)