Supreme Deliciousness (talk | contribs) →Omar Sharifs lebanese background: new section |
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--[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 20:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC) |
--[[User:Supreme Deliciousness|Supreme Deliciousness]] ([[User talk:Supreme Deliciousness|talk]]) 20:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC) |
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:Put hose refs in the article, then no one should be able to just remove them without consequences. [[User:FunkMonk|FunkMonk]] ([[User talk:FunkMonk|talk]]) 12:49, 2 February 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 12:49, 2 February 2010
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Surname spelling
The article spells his birth surname as "Shalhoub" but the nearby photo caption styles it "Chalhoub". The difference likely in Anglicizing, but it seems as if Wikipedia ought to be consistent.Irv (talk) 03:56, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
His origin
Omar Sherif
Cairo Times -- 05 March 1998
Omar Sherif was born Michel Dimitri Shalhoub in 1931 to a wealthy Alexandrian family of Christian Lebanese origin. He was discovered in Egypt by director Yousef Chahine in 1953, then nine years later discovered again by David Lean. His introduction to the Western audiences that were to adore him was a scene in Lawrence of Arabia when he appears out of the shimmering desert horizon galloping on a camel. How do you follow that? He did, once, with Dr Zhivago. After that his reputationas a drinker, gambler and womanizer loomed larger than his acting career. His presence in public consciousness well outlasted his shelf-life on screen. He gradually drifted back to Egypt, starting in the late seventies. After heart surgery in 1993, he decided to quit Paris. But still his life has the air of someone of no fixed abode.
<ref>http://omarsharif.netfirms.com/articles.htm</ref>
Lebanese bebe (talk) 20:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
- This is NOT a reliable source. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:06, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
yes it is and also Sharif was a melkite and Zahle is the homeland of Melkites. Shalhoub is Lebanese surname —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.198.189 (talk) 23:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Wikiproject
Someone removed the wikiproject Lebanon tag and you do not have that right. Omar Sharif was of Lebanese origin. Lebanese bebe (talk) 20:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
Arab cowboy he does have something to do with Lebanon, his origin is Lebanese. His name is Shalhoub by origin. Tony Shalhoub is also another famous Lebanese actor. Stop omitting facts please. Lebanese bebe (talk) 20:22, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
- Please see this interview with Omar Sharif: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYD0LTKaFc4&feature=related. At Time 11:30, he says, "I've never changed my passport. My passport was always Egyptian." Period! --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
conversion to Islam
Any idiot can realize Sharif converted to islam for marriage not spirtual reasons so ppl can dream all they like but the fact in Egypt its illegal for a non muslim man to marry a muslim woman defintely played a part and reverting to even your previous religion is illegal. Sharif converted to Islam to marry his wife this shud be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.2.198.189 (talk) 23:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
- If any "idiot" can realize it, why bother state it? You cannot state people's intentions for them; only published and sourced information is allowed on Wikipedia. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 15:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
The thing is "Arab Cowboy" regardless what he may state in public the reality is his conversion to islam WAS motivated on him marrying his wife and the FACT in Egypt the law states a non muslim man marrying a muslim woman is Illegal this is not just Sharia court of Court but the EGYPTIAN law that states this. There is no way that (as far Egyptian law is concerned) of him keeping his religion and being married to a muslim would of been possible. There is no argument about this. If me providing source that Egypt bans inter-faith marriage of muslim woman is needed than I will but if that gets deleted than i know editing of this article is not based on sourced information but other people's opinion trying to distort the reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.134.210 (talk) 01:52, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
- this is all very well, but the order in which things are presented in the article is way out of whack, and confusing. in the first sentence he is described as born to christian parents. then the first mention of islam is regarding islam vs. atheism.a mention of his conversion is definitely in order between these, doncha think?Toyokuni3 (talk) 16:41, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Video links
I have not removed the video link of Omar Sharif's interview with Riz Khan, since it's in English and is verifiable. However, i have removed the Arabic youtube link once again, due to the reason that it cannot be used to verify the statement purporting Omar Sharif's devout religiosity. While Arabic youtube links are allowed, it must be verifiable by the novice reader. As per WP:VERIFY, the purpose of having a link is to verify a statement or claim which could be disputed. This goes for Arabic and non Arabic speakers alike, with no exceptions. At least if it had English subtitles, i could have verified the statement for myself. Since this is not possible, i have removed it and in it's place, i have re-inserted the El Mundo article link with his quote admitting his atheism both in Spanish and in English. Please note that i have not used the netfirms blog link, but the original El Mundo link. If anyone doubts the veracity of the Spanish quote, they can always have it translated and checked through Google translate. However, if you want to re-insert the statement, then you will have to provide a credible source through which his supposed Muslim faith can be verified. It doesn't matter whether it's in Arabic or any other language, but it should not be an Arabic video link without English subtitles. Moreover, since he professed his atheism in 2002, you must find a source in which he admits to being Muslim after that. Joyson Noel (talk) 18:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
- Joyson, similar to the Spanish source to which you have provided your own translation to English, I have also provided an Arabic source, the video link, to which I have provided my own translation. As you requested those video links are more recent (both in 2007) than that El-Mundo interview of 2002. In the 2007 video link at Time 13:30, Omar states that his grand son Oman is not Jewish at all, but in fact is Mulim like his father. So, the claim that Omar's only son Tariq is atheist is clearly false. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:30, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Not acceptable. The source must be verifiable by any novice reader. Please find an alternate English link. If Omar Sharif is still a Muslim, then that should not be hard to find. Joyson Noel Holla at me 05:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Arabic sources are acceptable so long as the original is quoted and a translation provided. See WP:NONENG. If an English source is not available then an Arabic source may be used. This source may not be used for other reasons, but it being in Arabic is not one of them. nableezy - 05:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, but i assume that this is for textual inks, not video links. It's simply not verifiable. OK. So, here's the deal. Let's get an Arab administrator to verify the link. If he confirms that the source states that Sharif is a Muslim, then i'll respect that. Joyson Noel Holla at me 05:53, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Joyson, which part of the English interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYD0LTKaFc4&feature=related video link at Time 13:30 do you not understand? Also the Arabic interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRHXX6Aa8cI&feature=related at Time 9:15 is acceptable. In it he states that Islam is the religion that he has accepted and continues to love and that he has performed Umrah. Likewise, I do not understand the original Spanish interview that you provided and I have to rely on your translation. You do not need an admin to verify the translation. In the end, the videolinks of 2007 outdate your Spanish source of 2002. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 05:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- here is a source with Sharif saying that he has "a Jewish grandchild and a Muslim grandchild." But why on earth we are we even saying what religion his son is, or is not as the case may be? nableezy - 05:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Nableezy: this printed source is the kind of information that Omar Sharif himself refuted in his interview with Al-Jazeera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYD0LTKaFc4&feature=related video link at Time 13:30. It's more reliable to hear it from Sharif himself than from a journalist, don't you agree? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have sent a request to an Arab User:Tiamut to verify the link for me here in the talk page. If she confirms what you say, then you are free to re-insert your statement and i will not dispute this. It's just a matter of time. Until then, let the "Atheism" statement remain. Joyson Noel Holla at me 06:10, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why do you trust your own translation of Spanish and not my translation of Arabic? Why are you ignoring the English interview? I will give your solution a chance to take its course for another 24 hours only. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:14, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I request a bit more time. Give her three days. She might not be a regular user. This article is not going anywhere. The English interview does not give any clue as his religious beliefs or Tarek's. His grandson's religious beliefs are another matter. My uncle is an Atheist as well, yet he has given his children a traditional Catholic upbringing. It's common for Atheists to do that. Just because his grandchildren are Muslims does not mean that he is one. Joyson Noel Holla at me 06:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- We can give her more time while the atheism statement is out. It will be out anyway cause my translation is correct. You are wrong, the English interview does state that Omar (the grandson) is Muslim as his father (Tariq). Listen carefully. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, it does not. I viewed it last month. The Atheism statement was there before you replaced it with the disputed one. It's the original one. Your translation might be correct, but i can't verify that. So, let's wait. Joyson Noel Holla at me 06:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- How can you say that it does in not when the statement is there, in plain English? There will be no tolerance for this kind of logic. As for the translation of the other video link, Omar stated: "I have faith in God and in the religion to which I converted and that I have loved since 1954 when I became a Muslim, and I performed Umrah 3 or 4 years ago". Then the interviewer comments, "So, you are firm in your belief...." Period. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please tell me in which part of the English interview clip is that statement. Joyson Noel Holla at me 06:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Joyson, as I stated numerous times, the statement in the English interview is at Time 13:30 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYD0LTKaFc4&feature=related. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:48, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Not acceptable. The source must be verifiable by any novice reader. Please find an alternate English link. If Omar Sharif is still a Muslim, then that should not be hard to find. Joyson Noel Holla at me 05:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
There are a ton of sources that say his son married was married to both a Jew and a Muslim and that Sharif has both a Jewish and Muslim grandchild [such as this and this (he also calls himself a Muslim in this article), and here is one that says his son married a Catholic, a Muslim and a Jew. But that does not matter, we dont need to include his sons religion or his grandchildrens religions in the article. The Spanish source does indeed say what is translated here, but there are more recent sources that describe him as a "non-practicing Muslim" and a convert to Islam without any mention of becoming an atheist, such as this and this. I am not decided on how I feel this should be treated but the first part of it is removing the religion of his son. It does not make one bit of difference to this article. I would like to see some more sources on him being an atheist as opposed to a non-practicing Muslim. nableezy - 06:43, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's right! In the source you provided, he does refer to himself as a Muslim. In that case, the best solution would be to mention both claims of his. But before we decide to take any action, let's wait for her response. If the source is true, then feel free to remove that statement. Joyson Noel Holla at me 06:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Okay guys, unfortnately the speakers on my computer are on the fritz and I cannot see the video Joyson Noel wants verification of. If Nableezy could check it out, that would be good His Arabic is very good and he has provided a lot of translations before too. I would suggest checking book sources as well. I'm going to look around and see what I can find. I would tend to agree with Nableezy though, that information about the religious beliefs of his children are not relevant here. Remember this is a WP:BLP, and we should be sticking to Wiki policies of WP:NPOV, WP:V very strictly here. I'll be beack when I have more to add to the discussion. Tiamuttalk 16:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tiamut, thanks for trying. The religion of his children and grandchildren is not in question here, it is his own religion that Joyson needs verification of. I have provided a translation of the wording of the statement in the video link. At Time 9:15 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRHXX6Aa8cI&feature=related, Omar stated: "I have faith in God and in the religion to which I converted and that I have loved since 1954 when I became a Muslim, and I performed Umrah 3 or 4 years ago". Then the interviewer comments, "So, you are firm in your belief...." This is all we need verification of, not any more sources. If Nableezy can provide that, it will be fine too. Thanks in advance, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 22:07, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Okay guys, unfortnately the speakers on my computer are on the fritz and I cannot see the video Joyson Noel wants verification of. If Nableezy could check it out, that would be good His Arabic is very good and he has provided a lot of translations before too. I would suggest checking book sources as well. I'm going to look around and see what I can find. I would tend to agree with Nableezy though, that information about the religious beliefs of his children are not relevant here. Remember this is a WP:BLP, and we should be sticking to Wiki policies of WP:NPOV, WP:V very strictly here. I'll be beack when I have more to add to the discussion. Tiamuttalk 16:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's right! In the source you provided, he does refer to himself as a Muslim. In that case, the best solution would be to mention both claims of his. But before we decide to take any action, let's wait for her response. If the source is true, then feel free to remove that statement. Joyson Noel Holla at me 06:52, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
Omar Sharifs lebanese background
Since there are some people who have a habit of removing Omar sharifs lebanese background, I am here posting some sources showing that he has a lebanese background:
New York Times: "Born into a wealthy Lebanese-Egyptian family" [1]
Turner Classic Movies: "his mixed Lebanese and Syrian bloodlines." [2]
Published book: Now They Call Me Infidel: Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel, and the War on Terror: "Born in Egypt to a prominent Lebanese/Syrian family." [3]
Published book: Naming names: stories of pseudonyms and name changes with a who's who: "The Egyptian-born film star, of Syrian-Lebanese descent" [4]
Published book: The Movie stars story: "Though born in Egypt, Omar Sharif is actually of Lebanese origin" [5]
Published book: Encyclopedia of the modern Middle East: "The son of a wealthy merchant of Lebanese descent, Sharif was born Michel Chalhoub" [6]
Published book: Current biography yearbook, Volume 31: "Of Syrian-Lebanese descent, Omar Sharif was bom Michael Shalhoub" [7]
Published book: New Book of People (1986. Photographs, Capsule Biographies and Vital Statistics of Over 500 Celebrities): "Omar Sharif Michael Shalhoub Syrian-Lebanese by descent" [8]
Published book: Aramco world magazine: "He's really Michel Shalhoub, an Alexandria-born, Lebanese-Syrian" [9]
Published book: The Illustrated who's who of the cinema: "Of Lebanese and Syrian descent. Sharif studied mathematics and physics" [10]
Published book: The great movie stars: the international years "He was born in Alexandria in 1932 of Lebanese and Syrian stock" [11]
Published book: Streisand: Her Life: "someone suggested Omar Sharif, an Egyptian of Lebanese descent" [12]
Published book: Alexanders: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases: "Omar El-Sharif, is an Egyptian-born actor (of Lebanese origins" [13]
Published book: Lawrence of Arabia: "real name Michael Shaloub - had been born into a wealthy Lebanese Christian family" [14]
Published book: Marco Polo and the Encounter of East and West: "and an Egyptian of Lebanese/Syrian descent, Omar Sharif" [15]
Published book: Dream makers on the Nile: a portrait of Egyptian cinema: "Omar al-Sharif was born Michel Dimitri Shalhoub, to an Alexandrian family of Lebanese descent." [16]
Published book: Journal of Mediterranean studies: "Omar Sharif, born Michael Shalboub, son of a wealthy Alexandrine merchant of Lebanese descent" [17]
--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:43, 1 February 2010 (UTC)