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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]]. No further edits should be made to this section.''</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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===Is it time for another move discussion?== |
===Is it time for another move discussion?=== |
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*'''Support move to Oleh''' {{u|Roman Spinner}}'s arguments above were not answered. Those are good reasons for a move. Here is my own way of describing the situation. |
*'''Support move to Oleh''' {{u|Roman Spinner}}'s arguments above were not answered. Those are good reasons for a move. Here is my own way of describing the situation. |
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*#The Russian spelling is "Oleg" and the Ukrainian spelling is "Oleh". Choosing one spelling over another is also a political choice. |
*#The Russian spelling is "Oleg" and the Ukrainian spelling is "Oleh". Choosing one spelling over another is also a political choice. |
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*#There is a political or wartime aspect to this that goes beyond just counting the number of sources - the Russian sources which say he is a criminal call him "Oleg" and other sources which oppose the [[Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation]] call him "Oleh". |
*#There is a political or wartime aspect to this that goes beyond just counting the number of sources - the Russian sources which say he is a criminal call him "Oleg" and other sources which oppose the [[Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation]] call him "Oleh". |
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*#I acknowledge that there are Ukrainian sources which use the spelling "Oleg". However, this is because of a different transliteration scheme which uses the more familiar Russian system to make it easier for English speakers to read. Ukrainian community centers in the United States have adopted a practice of using the letter "h" for what Russians transcribe as "g". This practice differentiates Ukrainian language from Russian language and supports an individual Ukrainian cultural identity that is separate from the Russians. Especially in an activist article like this one, the usual activist way of writing the content should be followed. |
*#I acknowledge that there are Ukrainian sources which use the spelling "Oleg". However, this is because of a different transliteration scheme which uses the more familiar Russian system to make it easier for English speakers to read. Ukrainian community centers in the United States have adopted a practice of using the letter "h" for what Russians transcribe as "g". This practice differentiates Ukrainian language from Russian language and supports an individual Ukrainian cultural identity that is separate from the Russians. Especially in an activist article like this one, the usual activist way of writing the content should be followed. |
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{{ping|Ymblanter|My very best wishes|Andrewa}} You participated but did not support in the past. Could any of you say more about what additional sort of evidence you would need to see to support a move? Ymblanter especially - why did you say that this person does not speak Ukrainian, when he seems to have made a Ukrainian language movie? [[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">''' Blue Rasberry '''</span>]][[User talk:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]] 13:19, 1 March 2017 (UTC) |
:{{ping|Ymblanter|My very best wishes|Andrewa}} You participated but did not support in the past. Could any of you say more about what additional sort of evidence you would need to see to support a move? Ymblanter especially - why did you say that this person does not speak Ukrainian, when he seems to have made a Ukrainian language movie? [[User:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">''' Blue Rasberry '''</span>]][[User talk:Bluerasberry|<span style="background:#cedff2;color:#11e">(talk)</span>]] 13:19, 1 March 2017 (UTC) |
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==Links to discussions associated with the above "Requested move 21 October 2016"== |
==Links to discussions associated with the above "Requested move 21 October 2016"== |
Revision as of 13:20, 1 March 2017
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Requested move 21 October 2016
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: Moved. There is consensus below to use "Oleh" as the subject's given name in the article and title. (page mover non-admin) Paine u/c 02:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)
Oleg Sentsov → Oleh Sentsov – According to ukrainian rules Palu (talk) 11:44, 21 October 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Andrewa (talk) 19:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oppose. First, he is predominantly known in English as Oleg Sentsov. Second, he does not even speak Ukrainian. Third, Crimea is a disputed territory, and whereas Sentsov himself claims that he is a Ukrainian citizen, Russia treats him as a Russian citizen, and it is not obvious that Ukrainian transliteration rules should apply.--Ymblanter (talk) 12:57, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Support @Palu: WP:UKRAINIANNAMES In ictu oculi (talk) 16:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Why should WP:UKRAINIANNAMES apply here? And even if it does, why should it override WP:MOSTCOMMON?--Ymblanter (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Because we have WP:CONSISTENCY throughout the encyclopedia on how we present articles. We have our own MOS. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- I do not think it is a strong argument. First, it still does not explain why WP:UKRAINIANNAMES applies. Russia claims Sentsov is a Russian citizen and refused to extradite him for this reason. Second, consistency would require for example that we have articles with the titles Kyiv and Odesa, but we do not, exactly because of WP:MOSTCOMMON--Ymblanter (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Because we have WP:CONSISTENCY throughout the encyclopedia on how we present articles. We have our own MOS. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Comment Both spellings are used in English language sources, but "Oleg" is more frequent. One can reasonably argue this should be "Oleg" because Ukrainian official sources use this spelling [1]. My very best wishes (talk) 20:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Support per nomination and In ictu oculi. Subject's entry in Ukrainian Wikipedia describes him as a winner of the Shevchenko National Prize and a Ukrainian speaker, not a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. He was born in Ukraine, not Russia, and Ukraine has officially confirmed his Ukrainian citizenship, therefore the use of WP:UKRAINIANNAMES does, indeed, apply here, most emphatically. As for Wikipedia's use of main title headers Kiev and Odessa, rather than Kyiv and Odesa, it is, of course, on the basis of WP:MOSTCOMMON, in the same manner as Wikipedia's use of Moscow and Saint Petersburg, rather than Moskva and Sankt Peterburg. Use of Russian forms for Ukrainian names does not, however, fall under WP:MOSTCOMMON unless, of course, the subjects in question are Russian-speaking Ukrainians. That is the reason such details are specified in WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 09:04, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
- Relisting comment: There seem to be reasons above for both the Russian and the Ukranian naming conventiuons to apply. At least two of the above claims should be tested further IMO. Nom stated he does not even speak Ukranian, it would be good to see some evidence of this, particularly in view of the evidence above to the contrary. Second and perhaps more important, it's claimed that Oleg is more common in reliable English sources. This is very a tricky one, and WP:BLP applies of course. Andrewa (talk) 19:46, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
- Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Subdivisions and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ukraine/Crimea Task Force —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Discussion
1) For those who may not be aware of it, the Russian language has no letter "H/h" and the Ukrainian language has no letter "G/g". The same letter, "Г/г" is pronounced as "G/g" in Russian and as "H/h" in Ukrainian.
2) During the Soviet era, only Ukrainian diaspora publications used the Ukrainian transliteration of Ukrainian names, while virtually all reliable sources in English used the "official" Russian transliteration of Ukrainian names — a practice which continues to this day and extends to all the major English-language newspapers as well as proclamations from key sources, such as the European Union, European Film Academy or Amnesty International.
3) Even the announcement from Ukraine's own foreign ministry uses the Soviet-era "Oleg", rather than "Oleh". It should be noted, however, that the Ukrainian foreign ministry's Russian transliteration (of Ukrainian names into English) extends to all Ukrainian names, not simply "Oleh", thus making WP:UKRAINIANNAMES completely irrelevant if all these previously-mentioned sources were to be submitted as prime examples of Ukrainian name transliteration.
4) However, notable examples of a turnaround in this grandfathered form of Russian transliteration are starting to appear. In its English-language reporting, the Interfax-Ukraine News Agency, a Kiev-based subsidiary of the Russian news group Interfax Information Services, has referenced the filmmaker as Oleh Sentsov. Even more significantly, a press statement from the U.S. Department of State uses the Ukrainian transliteration for both Oleh Sentsov and co-defendant Oleksandr (not the Russian form "Aleksandr") Kolchenko.
5) It is also important to note that, in addition to the article in English Wikipedia, an entry for Oleh Sentsov appears in 14 other Wikipedias, all of which, including the Russian Wikipedia describe him, in their respective lead sentences, as Ukrainian, not Russian, therefore confirming the applicability of WP:UKRAINIANNAMES. Among the 15 Wikipedias, 10 use the Latin alphabet. Four of those (English, Dutch, Occitan and Swedish) use "Oleg Sentsov", three (Spanish, French, Finnish) use "Oleh Sentsov" and three (German, Polish, Czech) use "Oleh" in transliterating both the given name and the surname — "Oleh Senzow", "Ołeh Sencow", "Oleh Sencov".
6) It should also be noted that, in the matter of all Ukrainian names, but especially in this particular instance, simply having "Oleh Setsov" redirect to the main title header "Oleg Sentsov" is, at best, insufficient and, at worst, insupportable and unacceptable. It is not simply a matter of the guidelines at WP:UKRAINIANNAMES or national linguistic pride, as in case of the lengthy discussions whether to use Akerman or Åkerman for a show business celebrity at Talk:Malin Åkerman#Åkerman or whether to use Monica or Mónica for a sports celebrity at Talk:Monica Puig#Requested move September 12, 2016.
7) The key consideration here is a political prisoner's national identity on which rests his life in the balance. As "Oleg", he is a Russian Ukrainian or alternatively, a Ukrainian Russian, in both instances, putatively subject to the laws of Russia. As "Oleh", however, he is a Ukrainian, winner of three national awards (Shevchenko National Prize as well as Order For Courage [August 23, 2014 and September 24, 2015]) honoring those who have contributed to Ukrainian culture, Ukrainian nation and Ukrainian people. The stakes under consideration are high and WP:RELIABLE SOURCES should be considered from every standpoint and historical consideration of transliteration. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 03:34, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Is it time for another move discussion?
- Support move to Oleh Roman Spinner's arguments above were not answered. Those are good reasons for a move. Here is my own way of describing the situation.
- The Russian spelling is "Oleg" and the Ukrainian spelling is "Oleh". Choosing one spelling over another is also a political choice.
- The person is Ukrainian, speaks Ukrainian, and makes Ukrainian language movies. Per MOS:Identity Wikipedia calls people by the name they have for themselves, not the names that others have for them, even if another name is the WP:COMMONNAME. This person uses the Ukrainian name "Oleh".
- Oleh claims that his being called "Oleg" is part of his punishment by the Russian government. Oleh says that he is being deprived of his Ukrainian citizenship with his current imprisonment.
- There is a political or wartime aspect to this that goes beyond just counting the number of sources - the Russian sources which say he is a criminal call him "Oleg" and other sources which oppose the Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation call him "Oleh".
- I acknowledge that there are Ukrainian sources which use the spelling "Oleg". However, this is because of a different transliteration scheme which uses the more familiar Russian system to make it easier for English speakers to read. Ukrainian community centers in the United States have adopted a practice of using the letter "h" for what Russians transcribe as "g". This practice differentiates Ukrainian language from Russian language and supports an individual Ukrainian cultural identity that is separate from the Russians. Especially in an activist article like this one, the usual activist way of writing the content should be followed.
- @Ymblanter, My very best wishes, and Andrewa: You participated but did not support in the past. Could any of you say more about what additional sort of evidence you would need to see to support a move? Ymblanter especially - why did you say that this person does not speak Ukrainian, when he seems to have made a Ukrainian language movie? Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:19, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
Links to discussions associated with the above "Requested move 21 October 2016"
As indicated in the above-templated banner, directly below section header "Requested move 21 October 2016", a subsequent move review discussion resulted in returning the main title header from Oleh Sentsov to its initial form, Oleg Sentsov. For the record, when this matter comes up again for argumentation in 2017, here is the link for that move review discussion and, also, here is the link to the discussion contesting the deletion of the redirect "Oleg Sentsov" which was preventing the move of "Oleh Sentsov" back to "Oleg Sentsov". —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 21:11, 27 December 2016 (UTC)