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This is about the most political claim I've ever seen in Wikipedia. The Six Counties is no more a "country" than is eastern England, or any other part of England. This is just a pathetic attempt to give historical legitimacy to the gerrymandered entity which is 'Northern Ireland'. Any honest person can see that. If anything, it's currently a region of the United Kingdom. 'Currently' being the operative word. It never was a country, or a province. It's a remnant of British colonial rule over the entire country. No more. [[Special:Contributions/109.76.237.38|109.76.237.38]] ([[User talk:109.76.237.38|talk]]) 21:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC) |
This is about the most political claim I've ever seen in Wikipedia. The Six Counties is no more a "country" than is eastern England, or any other part of England. This is just a pathetic attempt to give historical legitimacy to the gerrymandered entity which is 'Northern Ireland'. Any honest person can see that. If anything, it's currently a region of the United Kingdom. 'Currently' being the operative word. It never was a country, or a province. It's a remnant of British colonial rule over the entire country. No more. [[Special:Contributions/109.76.237.38|109.76.237.38]] ([[User talk:109.76.237.38|talk]]) 21:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:I think we should preserve this comment as an example of [[WP:POV]]. [[User:Mabuska|Mabuska]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mabuska|(talk)]]</sup> 23:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC) |
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=== Rewrite of intro === |
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Maybe a kitchen sink approach but here's a stab at rewriting the intro. A new feautre would be a new paragraph dealing with ... wait for it ... non-political matters <tt>;-D</tt> This is something that there have been sporadic comments about: that reading the article, one would think there is nothing in Northern Ireland except for history and politics. |
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I haven't written this section, I'm not sure what to include. Some obvious things are music, sport (golf, soccer, and include all-Ireland aspect), and economics. |
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<blockquote>'''Northern Ireland''' ({{lang-ga|Tuaisceart Éireann}} {{IPA-ga|ˈt̪ˠuəʃcəɾˠt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ|pron|Tuaisceart_Eireann.ogg}}, [[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster Scots]]: ''Norlin Airlann'' or ''Norlin Airlan'') is [[Administrative geography of the United Kingdom|a part of the United Kingdom]] in the north-east of the [[island of Ireland]]. It shares [[Republic of Ireland-United Kingdom border|a border]] with the [[Republic of Ireland]] to the south and west. At the time of the [[United Kingdom Census 2001|2001 UK Census]], its population was 1,685,000, constituting about 30% of the island's total population and about 3% of the [[population of the United Kingdom]]. Northern Ireland is largely self-governing and co-operates with the [[Government of Ireland|the rest of Ireland]], from which it was [[Partition of Ireland|partitioned in 1921]], on some policy areas. Other areas are [[Reserved matters|reserved]] for the [[Government of the United Kingdom]], upon which the Republic of Ireland may "may put forward views and proposals".</blockquote> |
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<blockquote>...<p>[INSERT NEW PARAGRAPH DEALINGING WITH NON POLITICAL THINGS HERE — E.G. SPORT, MUSIC, ECONOMY, GEOGRAPHY]<p>...</blockquote> |
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<blockquote>Northern Ireland was for many years the site of a violent and bitter inter-communal conflict — [[the Troubles]] — which was caused by divisions between [[Nationalists (Ireland)|nationalists]], who are predominantly Roman Catholic, and [[Unionism in Ireland|unionists]], who are predominantly Protestant. Unionists want Northern Ireland to remain as a part of the United Kingdom, while nationalists wish for it to be [[United Ireland|politically reunited]] with the rest of Ireland. Since the signing of the "[[Good Friday Agreement]]" in 1998, most of the paramilitary groups involved in the Troubles have ceased their armed campaigns.</blockquote> |
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<blockquote>Owing to its unique history, the issue of the symbolism, [[#Variations in geographic nomenclature|name and description]] of Northern Ireland is complex, as is the issue of [[#Citizenship and identity|citizenship and identity]]. In general, unionists see themselves as British and nationalists see themselves as Irish, though these identities are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Additionally, people from both sides of the community may describe themselves as ''Northern Irish''.</blockquote> |
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--[[User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid|<span style="color:black;">RA</span>]] ([[User talk:Rannpháirtí anaithnid|talk]]) 23:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:I don't see the point unless England/Scotland/Wales also have their intros changed to state "a part of the United Kingdom". If they were also changed to match i'd support this proposal. [[User:Mabuska|Mabuska]] <sup>[[User_talk:Mabuska|(talk)]]</sup> 23:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::I don't see why Northern Ireland should be treated as if it were identical to England, Scotland or Wales. That may be an ideal some may have but it isn't a fair reflection of a [[WP:NPOV|neutral point of view]] on the subject. Anyway, the introduction here is already different from England, Scotland and Wales for that reason. |
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::In any case, there's more to the rewrite above than just the first sentence. --[[User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid|<span style="color:black;">RA</span>]] ([[User talk:Rannpháirtí anaithnid|talk]]) 23:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:::It's the closest thing to NPOV I've seen in a long time, although (question) could it be said that you should also mention "country" and "province" in the intro? I wouldn't even attempt to craft a sentence but I'm thinking "Northern Ireland is sometimes referred to as a Province (ref) or a Country (ref)". And dag-darn it but I really hate to see "Republic of Ireland" all in caps like that but that's a different discussion. --[[User:HighKing|HighKing]] ([[User talk:HighKing|talk]]) 13:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC) |
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*Looks bett6er to me, after a small correction. Since the status of Northern Ireland is treated very differently by reliable sources to those of England, Scotland and Wales I don't see that argument holding water. <font face="Celtic">[[User:One Night In Hackney|<span style="color:#006600">2 lines of K</span>]]<sub>''[[User talk:One Night In Hackney|<span style="color:#006600">303</span>]]''</sub></font> 13:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Looks better to me - I've never adhered to the "one description fits all" idea. Clearly ''some'' sources support that line, but this appears more neutral to me. [[User:Ghmyrtle|Ghmyrtle]] ([[User talk:Ghmyrtle|talk]]) 15:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Also looks good to me. Since when has NI ever been treated the same as the rest of the UK in any respect. One size doesn't fit all in this case. [[User:Bjmullan|Bjmullan]] ([[User talk:Bjmullan|talk]]) 00:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::The UK is not symmetrical, so NI should be considered on its own merits. Having identical wordings in England/Scotland/Wales implies a symmetry which does not exist in reality and Wikipedia should not give the impression that it exists. Perhaps a wording could be used that NI is part/component of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so indicating clearly that it is a significant part. [[User:Ardmacha|Ardmacha]] ([[User talk:Ardmacha|talk]]) 22:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::I agree that this is an improvement. I also agree that if one particular phrase has been agreed for use in the opening sentences of the articles on Scotland, England and Wales, that is not in itself a particularly strong argument for its use in the opening sentence here - all the more so since, as pointed out above, it is controversial and there's a very strong case that presenting it as an uncontested "definition" of Northern Ireland does not reflect the usage of the Northern Ireland authorities themselves. [[User:ComhairleContaeThirnanOg|ComhairleContaeThirnanOg]] ([[User talk:ComhairleContaeThirnanOg|talk]]) 01:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC) |
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===New intro paragraphs on economy and culture=== |
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This is quite alien territory, so I don't expect to get it right first time, but here's a stab at "non-political" content to go with the suggestion above. I suggest that rather than working out details here and binding ourselves to some "agreement", that once a generally acceptable idea for the text is found that the details be worked out, over time, in the usual fashion, in the article itself: |
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<blockquote>'''Northern Ireland''' ({{lang-ga|Tuaisceart Éireann}} {{IPA-ga|ˈt̪ˠuəʃcəɾˠt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ|pron|Tuaisceart_Eireann.ogg}}, [[Ulster Scots dialects|Ulster Scots]]: ''Norlin Airlann'' or ''Norlin Airlan'') is ...</blockquote> |
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<blockquote>Northern Ireland has the smallest economy of the twelve [[NUTS:UK|statistical regions]] of the United Kingdom. Traditionally the most industrialized region of Ireland, [[Economy of Northern Ireland|the economy of Northern Ireland]] declined as a result of [[The Troubles|political and social turmoil]] in the second half of the 20th century. The economy grew significantly since the 1990s, in part due to a "peace dividend" and in part due to links with the [[Celtic Tiger]] economy of the Republic of Ireland, with which trade grew substantially.</blockquote> |
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<blockquote>Northern Ireland has [[Culture of Northern Ireland|a vibrant cultural scene]] that has produced world-renowned artists and sports persons such as [[Seamus Heaney]], [[Van Morrison]], [[Rory McIlroy]] and [[George Best]]. Cultural links between Northern Ireland, the rest of Ireland and the rest of the UK are complex, with Northern Ireland sharing both the [[culture of Ireland]] and the [[culture of the United Kingdom]]. In many sports, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland field a single team, a notable exception being [[Northern Ireland national football team|soccer]]. Northern Ireland [[Northern Ireland at the Commonwealth Games|competes separately]] at the [[Commonwealth Games]] and people from Northern Ireland may compete for either [[Great Britain at the Olympics|Great Britain]] or [[Ireland at the Olympics|Ireland]] at the [[Olympic Games]].</blockquote> |
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<blockquote>Northern Ireland was for many years...</blockquote> |
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--[[User:Rannpháirtí anaithnid|<span style="color:black;">RA</span>]] ([[User talk:Rannpháirtí anaithnid|talk]]) 22:15, 28 February 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:15, 28 February 2012
Template:Outline of knowledge coverage
Northern Ireland was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Open Ireland page move discussion
After a two-year ban imposed by Arbcom, a page move discussion for the Republic of Ireland can be entertained.
- (Discuss)–Republic of Ireland →Ireland (republic) Kauffner(talk) 08:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Article Map.
Why is it shown where Northern Ireland is in Europe? It gives the erroneous impression that Northern Ireland is independant. GoodDay (talk) 15:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Are you denying that Northern Ireland is located in the continent of Europe?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nope. I saying that showing Northern Ireland location in the United Kingdom, is sufficent. Only sovereign states should have their locations shown in their respective continents. GoodDay (talk) 18:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Why?--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Nope. I saying that showing Northern Ireland location in the United Kingdom, is sufficent. Only sovereign states should have their locations shown in their respective continents. GoodDay (talk) 18:36, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)It's been a while SD. Hope you're well. I tend to agree about the World map insert. The map package is a bit like a Russian doll.Leaky Caldron 19:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Possibly on the World Map, but that is not how GoodDay started - see above and on Wales where he wants the map to be UK only then switches his stance to just removing the world map. Contradicting himself within a single screen. Trouble making (which is what I want you to stop GoodDay) --Snowded TALK 19:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I meant the World map all along. Holy smokers, I was a main proponent for the Europe map. I'm not perfect, Snowded. PS: You shouldn't be attacking my motives on these articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- A sudden change of position after a provocative opening. Typical. Suggest the discussion takes place in one place rather than four articles (or ideally just stops). I have responded to GoodDay's sudden change of position after a provocative opening in the talk page of Wales --Snowded TALK 19:46, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- I meant the World map all along. Holy smokers, I was a main proponent for the Europe map. I'm not perfect, Snowded. PS: You shouldn't be attacking my motives on these articles. GoodDay (talk) 19:33, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- Possibly on the World Map, but that is not how GoodDay started - see above and on Wales where he wants the map to be UK only then switches his stance to just removing the world map. Contradicting himself within a single screen. Trouble making (which is what I want you to stop GoodDay) --Snowded TALK 19:32, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)It's been a while SD. Hope you're well. I tend to agree about the World map insert. The map package is a bit like a Russian doll.Leaky Caldron 19:26, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
It's been 8 days & there's no consensus for deletion of the inserted World Map. Proposal is withdrawn. GoodDay (talk) 02:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
How many Irish(ethnic) in Northern Ireland?
--Kaiyr (talk) 16:02, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
- The article has a demographics section.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 17:01, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Irish pronunciation
I'm not too familiar with language tags, if anyone could fix the Irish pronunciation recording link for me and tell me where I'm going wrong. Hoping to roll this out across the counties and Gaelic place-names. Míle buíochas / Many thanks! Filastin (talk) 02:00, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- Good man/woman/dog, Filastin! You may be interested in the Irish-language task force, which has a number of templates used for place names in Ireland (which give translations and meanings). You may also be interested in the manual of style entry for Irish place names. Best regards, --RA (talk) 08:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
ISO definition and first sentence
In discussion with another on Talk:Wales, I was pointed to ISO definitions for the constituent parts of the United Kingdom (ISO 3166-2:GB). These are presumably based in some way on definitions of the United Kingdom Permanent Committee on Geographical Names.
In 2010, the ISO defined the UK as follows:
- England: country
- Scotland: country
- Wales: principality
- Northern Ireland: province
(Changes in the list of subdivision names and code elements (2010))
In 2011, this was changed as follows:
- England: country
- Scotland: country
- Wales:
principalitycountry - Northern Ireland: province
(Changes in the list of subdivision names and code elements (2011))
What I suggest is that this ISO gives us a standard (also reflected in common speech) upon which to refer to the different parts of the United Kingdom and to have consistency across articles. For this article, I suggest a change to the first sentence so that it is closer to the other articles and reflects the ISO (and common practice):
- England /ˈɪŋɡlənd/ is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.
- Scotland (Scottish Gaelic: Alba ([ˈalˠ̪apə] )) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.
- Wales (/ˈweɪlz/ , Welsh: Cymru; pronounced [ˈkəm.rɨ] ) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom.
- Northern Ireland (Irish: Tuaisceart Éireann pronounced [ˈt̪ˠuəʃcəɾˠt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ] , Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann or Norlin Airlan) is a province that is part of the United Kingdom.
--RA (talk) 02:52, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- In perspective: the reason you were “pointed to ISO definitions for the constituent parts of the United Kingdom (ISO 3166-2:GB)”, was because you cited outdated ISO definitions to assert your POV that Wales is a principality. No-one else thinks the ISO are the ultimate authority on the subject. I see no reason to change this article based on a single source that self-evidently makes mistakes. Daicaregos (talk) 11:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Dai, it's not my POV that Wales is a "principality". It never has been.
- With regard to "mistakes" in the ISO standard, obviously any standard that deals with language use changes from time-to-time. In the case of ISO 3166-2: "The changes are based on information obtained from either national sources of the countries concerned or on information gathered by the Panel of Experts for the Maintenance of ISO 3166-2."
- In the case of the United Kingdom, this is the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use, an interdepartmental service which advises and represents the British Government on such matters. Furthermore, BS ISO 3166-2, from the BSI, which the PCGN liaises with, is said to be "identical" to ISO 3166-2.
- Thus, the ISO reflects:
- Official British Government use
- International (ISO) standards
- British (BSI) standards
- It is good IMO that the standard has been updated to describe Wales as a country. I hope the BSI standard is updated shortly to reflect this. But why should Northern Ireland still not be called by its standard designation? Province is how the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive describe it. That has long been the ISO standard (and presumably the BSI standard also, since the BS is described as being identical to the ISO one). It is how other sources describe it too. What's the problem? --RA (talk) 20:15, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
- Despite the fact i agree that Northern Ireland is a province of the United Kingdom, i see no reason to change from what we currently have in the articles. The issue has as far as i can tell been stable for a long time now so i see no need to re-drag up an issue that can become heated and drag on for ages. Mabuska (talk) 15:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- To be honest, if the article is stable, IMO, it is through POV pushing by a small number of editors across several articles. Rather than a genuine consensus, I feel it is more a case of a forced consensus arising from a dispute in which the content of this article was an afterthought.
- Why I raised it again is because the source above has been changed to refer to Wales as a "country" rather than a "principality". I hope that that will allay fears that calling Northern Ireland anything other than a "country" will have a consequence for the Wales (or any other) article. So, I am hoping, the issue does not need to become heated or long and drawn out this time around as Northern Ireland can be described as a "province" and Wales (and other places) can still be called a "country". --RA (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- Despite the fact i agree that Northern Ireland is a province of the United Kingdom, i see no reason to change from what we currently have in the articles. The issue has as far as i can tell been stable for a long time now so i see no need to re-drag up an issue that can become heated and drag on for ages. Mabuska (talk) 15:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- POV pushing by a small number of editors? Would you like to name names RA? If you can't you should have the common decency to delete that piece of nonsense. We've already changed this article once after you didn't like it and you were content at the time. For God's sake there are enough disputes on wikipedia and the whole country/BI debates have been quiet for some time. Why are you stirring them up? ----Snowded TALK 18:16, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- "We've already changed this article once after you didn't like it ..." I think this says everything. WP:OWN much? --RA (talk) 21:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- It says that we have discussed and responded to your concerns before and reached agreement, and agreement which you now seem to want to challenge. I can't see any way that pointing that out reflects an ownership issue. ----Snowded TALK 21:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- "We"? Who is "we"? It's clear you don't see me as being a part of "we", whoever they are. So, who should I go to if I want to edit the first line of this article? Who owns it? That is the ownership issue that I am referring to. --RA (talk) 21:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- "We" clearly did include you when the current wording was agreed. If you want to edit the first line of the article then I suggest you make a concrete proposal here. You know that its a controversial issue so I hope, given your experience and position as an admin, that you would have the common sense and decency to propose changes here first for discussion. Oh and you still haven't named those "POV pushing" editors or withdrawn the comment ----Snowded TALK 21:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- "We"? Who is "we"? It's clear you don't see me as being a part of "we", whoever they are. So, who should I go to if I want to edit the first line of this article? Who owns it? That is the ownership issue that I am referring to. --RA (talk) 21:43, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- It says that we have discussed and responded to your concerns before and reached agreement, and agreement which you now seem to want to challenge. I can't see any way that pointing that out reflects an ownership issue. ----Snowded TALK 21:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- "We've already changed this article once after you didn't like it ..." I think this says everything. WP:OWN much? --RA (talk) 21:13, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- "It says that we have discussed and responded to your concerns..." In that sentence "we" does not include "me". See examples of ownership behavior. You are demonstrating them.
- "...I suggest you make a concrete proposal here." Facepalm Look above (hint: it's the first post in the thread). You don't even read these threads before responding to them, do you? --RA (talk) 22:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- And you are denying that you raised issues and were part of a consensus to make a change to the lede? You are however right that in this case you did make a concrete proposal, my apologies for that, my frustration at your interminable lectures and insults without a proposal elsewhere got to me so for that I apologise ----Snowded TALK 05:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I am glad this issue has been raised here. I too participated in the discussion on Talk Wales where this point arose first and I wanted to raise it here myself. I fully agree that it is not appropriate to describe it as a "country" in the way it is when the UK Government indicates to the ISO that it should be describd as a "province". I think the ISO is a pretty important source - it is international, reflecting a world view. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 21:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- You can't argue the source as critical on one article, but deny it on another (Wales) ----Snowded TALK 05:47, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I do have to say that i find it wrong and slightly POV (no offense) to suggest that because the description of Wales has changed that that means Northern Ireland's article must be changed under the pretense there will be no argueing from Welsh-orientated editors. Despite RA's concerns, as far as i am aware there was a general consensus that was backed up by the majority of sources - what was that sub-article page that contained the mass list of descriptions and attached sources? Mabuska (talk) 22:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
- The article is Countries of the United Kingdom, the refs are here. A word of warning: that article, and the table of sources, were created to support the argument that England, Scotland, Wales and Northern were "countries" and to reinforce use of that term for those places. Indeed, originally the table of refs use to appear actually on the article page itself!
- On the reliability of the table, I don't have much faith in it. The collection of sources to "prove" one thing or another through number of sources alone is bound to be intrinsically biased. No one can really suggest that the collation of these sources was approached as a rigorous scientific exercise. More than anything else, all the table demonstrates is the greater determination of one group of editors to search the web for sources that "prove" their point of view over others.
- About the link to Wales, the desire for "consistency" across the four articles was a major component of drawn out discussions (and a failed mediation) that led to "country" appearing on all four articles. Previous to that, they were all treated independently. The introduction to this article has since been changed. However, the motivation to ensure "consistency" in terminology across the four articles in use of the word "country" was still important. One reason for doing so was to because if a word other than "country" appeared on one article, it was believed it would lead to "instability" on the other three. Wales, in particular, was open to being described as "principality" rather than a "country".
- Now, I appreciate that raising that might seem as being an expression of bad faith in the editors who took part in those discussion. It's not. Those editors acted in good faith for what they thought was best for the encyclopedia. That doesn't mean that they were right, however, or that what followed represents a NPOV.
- On whether use of the word "country" is consensus: Since the introduction of this article was changed to say "country" in 2008, the issue has been raised on the talk page 13 times. (I opened two of those threads.) Before then, it was only been raised 4 times.
- What I want to see (and have wanted to see for a long time) is a reasoned discussion on 'what Northern Ireland is' as a case by itself — and not wrapped up with what people want to see England, Scotland or Wales described as. I don't believe that if we approached this topic on its own would we come up with the current wording. --RA (talk) 00:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Is having consituent ahead of country in the intro, an option for this article? GoodDay (talk) 03:58, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- As I remember it, the argument for consistency was in part due to consistent treatment by the UK Government. Changes were made to this article when you last raised it and you agreed with those changes. I think your description of the past by the way is a failure to WP:AGF. You talk about a failed mediation as it it somehow or other challenges the validity of the researched compromise, a process led by an experienced admin. A formal mediation was rejected by a couple of editors and so it became a task force. Editors from both sides of the argument were involved in drawing up the table and simply saying that because the result did not support a position you now wish to adopt that it was a result of a more determined effort by one group over another is dubious to say the least. It might be worth your effort to look at the number of now banned editors or sock puppets involved in some of those disputes before you use a somewhat spurious count of 'number of times raised' as evidence of a lack of consensus. Now as it happens I think that the position on Northern Ireland is different in one significant way from the others in that its status as an independent political unit is more recent, and its independence was in dispute until the Good Friday Agreement. It does however have an assembly, and is one of the three legal systems in operation in the UK. Overall nothing has changed since the last time this was discussed. The ISO document said province back then as well. ----Snowded TALK 06:00, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- The consensus reached on the Talk: Wales page was that the ISO source was critical. The suggestion that Wales not be referred to as a country did not receive consensus support. It seems to me the corrollary if we want to be consistent here is that NI should be described as a province. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 10:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Wrong. The ISO source when it said "Principality" was taken into account when the decision was made for country. The fact that it was changed by ISO when questioned confirmed that earlier decision. It was not critical and attempts to reopen discussion were not supported by editors on that article. ----Snowded TALK 11:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Snowded says "attempts to reopen discussion were not supported by editors on that article" - a more accurate statement would be that they were not supported by some editors. Some others thought it an interesting discussion worth having, despite being told it was causing huge grief, etc. (Other than the potential grief of having to talk about it, it was hard to see what the grief was.) If Snowded means that there was no consensus to change from Country in that discussion, that's correct, but the usage of Principality in parts of the article text is still under discussion. I would be interested to see the old archived discussion Snowded alludes to where he states that ISO was fully considered and rejected as a guide - rejected by people of a particular view presumably, since it does appear from the case-building that RA has helpfully provided that the ISO definitions do in fact reflect official government views. As for Northern Ireland, the best we can say about it overall is that the status of the (province/country) is in fact under dispute and has been left vague by the governments concerned, presumably deliberately. It isn't a country and the current "one of the 4 countries of the UK" thing is a little misleading. If ISO are to be trusted as an official source, we could say something like "whilst contested, the view of the UK government is that NI is a Province (and the ISO source)" but of course it will be fiercely battled here in WP, which alas is not always accurate when the battleground is thick with POVs. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- A majority of editors did not want to reopen a discussion resolved ages ago James. Please try and avoid hyperbole (grief, battleground, thick with POVs). I haven't seen any proposals for change in respect of mentioning the use of "Principality" beyond the references already made there. When they are I am sure editor will be happy to examine them. As to Northern Ireland I think the question is if people want to re-open a discussion that was previously resolved with RAs agreement or not. ----Snowded TALK 12:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying it can never be re-opened then? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Read my last sentence above ----Snowded TALK 12:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think that given a well-constructed and thought-out proposal from RA, we shouldn't be using arguments about process to attempt to block discussion. Those who are opposed should be talking about the facts of the case and not raising arguments about former procedures. The simple fact is that the UK government appears to still regard it officially as a Province and that's worth putting in the article. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Read my last sentence above ----Snowded TALK 12:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Are you saying it can never be re-opened then? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:18, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- A majority of editors did not want to reopen a discussion resolved ages ago James. Please try and avoid hyperbole (grief, battleground, thick with POVs). I haven't seen any proposals for change in respect of mentioning the use of "Principality" beyond the references already made there. When they are I am sure editor will be happy to examine them. As to Northern Ireland I think the question is if people want to re-open a discussion that was previously resolved with RAs agreement or not. ----Snowded TALK 12:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Snowded says "attempts to reopen discussion were not supported by editors on that article" - a more accurate statement would be that they were not supported by some editors. Some others thought it an interesting discussion worth having, despite being told it was causing huge grief, etc. (Other than the potential grief of having to talk about it, it was hard to see what the grief was.) If Snowded means that there was no consensus to change from Country in that discussion, that's correct, but the usage of Principality in parts of the article text is still under discussion. I would be interested to see the old archived discussion Snowded alludes to where he states that ISO was fully considered and rejected as a guide - rejected by people of a particular view presumably, since it does appear from the case-building that RA has helpfully provided that the ISO definitions do in fact reflect official government views. As for Northern Ireland, the best we can say about it overall is that the status of the (province/country) is in fact under dispute and has been left vague by the governments concerned, presumably deliberately. It isn't a country and the current "one of the 4 countries of the UK" thing is a little misleading. If ISO are to be trusted as an official source, we could say something like "whilst contested, the view of the UK government is that NI is a Province (and the ISO source)" but of course it will be fiercely battled here in WP, which alas is not always accurate when the battleground is thick with POVs. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Wrong. The ISO source when it said "Principality" was taken into account when the decision was made for country. The fact that it was changed by ISO when questioned confirmed that earlier decision. It was not critical and attempts to reopen discussion were not supported by editors on that article. ----Snowded TALK 11:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- The consensus reached on the Talk: Wales page was that the ISO source was critical. The suggestion that Wales not be referred to as a country did not receive consensus support. It seems to me the corrollary if we want to be consistent here is that NI should be described as a province. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 10:55, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something here, but if the ISO definition is the last word, why wasn't Wales referred to as a prinicipality on here before its status was changed by ISO to a country? JonCTalk 12:34, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think the ISO itself is the last word. It is a very significant source when to defining 'what' the different parts of the UK are. However, it should be seen alongside other sources. If we did so, I believe, "country" is the last word we would choose in the first line of this article.
- Hitherto-fore, the desire to have have (and maintain) consistency of the use of the word "country" across the four articles determined what appeared here, regardless of whether it was the best choice of word here or not. With respect to Wales, there are NPOV issues there. A thread is open on it on Talk:Wales. What I hope the ISO re-definition will allay concerns that just because Northern Ireland isn't referred to as being a "country" that it will open the door to changes in other places.
- The insistence on a false "consistency", a cornerstone of the change in 2008, is why there have been 13 threads opened on this issue on this page. Before then there had only been four threads on this issue. Far from the issue being resolved, it has been made worse by arguments brought here from other pages. Furthermore, the efforts to cut short discussion on this issue, and present reasonable attempts to open discussion on it as disruptive, is why the issue remains unresolved. --RA (talk) 13:25, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's obviously right about the disruption part. On the facts themselves, I would slightly query one of your assertions at the start of this tread RA - you mentioned that the ISO rulings "reflect Official British Government use" as you put it. I'm not certain this is correct - they certainly must contribute but has HMG issued a definitive ruling? The Permanent Committee says on its website that its principal function is to advise the British Government on policies and procedures for the proper writing of geographical names - this is not quite the same as governmental ruling. [1] I know you mentioned on Talk:Wales that it is regarded as the authoritative source, but it still appears to be a bit debatable what the actual import of an ISO ruling on names is. I doubt for example that if they declared the Falklands to be the Malvinas it would be accepted as such at the UN by Britain. Most government published sources like for example the website of the Northern Ireland Office are very deliberately completely silent on the subject of status. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Quickie observation and question then. It's been mentioned that the ISO isn't the last word. I disagree and would observe that ISO is the most official source there is from an NPOV international context. In my opinion, when data on Wikipedia differs from ISO, what we're usually dealing with nationalistic POV. As editors, we should be big enough to see and admit that, and decide on content from that standpoint. --HighKing (talk) 14:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Do the rulings of the UK ISO branch (and by reflection the Permanent Committee) get projected up internationally then and treated as global rulings? If so, you are right if its the most "official" global ruling on names, then it must also be the most internationally NPOV one presumably, unless there is some other listing used at the UN or something. Is there a definitive list of regional elements of nation-states in use at the UN, and do they use the ISO names? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 15:12, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Quickie observation and question then. It's been mentioned that the ISO isn't the last word. I disagree and would observe that ISO is the most official source there is from an NPOV international context. In my opinion, when data on Wikipedia differs from ISO, what we're usually dealing with nationalistic POV. As editors, we should be big enough to see and admit that, and decide on content from that standpoint. --HighKing (talk) 14:45, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's obviously right about the disruption part. On the facts themselves, I would slightly query one of your assertions at the start of this tread RA - you mentioned that the ISO rulings "reflect Official British Government use" as you put it. I'm not certain this is correct - they certainly must contribute but has HMG issued a definitive ruling? The Permanent Committee says on its website that its principal function is to advise the British Government on policies and procedures for the proper writing of geographical names - this is not quite the same as governmental ruling. [1] I know you mentioned on Talk:Wales that it is regarded as the authoritative source, but it still appears to be a bit debatable what the actual import of an ISO ruling on names is. I doubt for example that if they declared the Falklands to be the Malvinas it would be accepted as such at the UN by Britain. Most government published sources like for example the website of the Northern Ireland Office are very deliberately completely silent on the subject of status. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 14:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- You're right, James (that "this is not quite the same as governmental ruling"), but I tend to lean towards HighKing in that it is the most authorative source we have. The ISO source gives the Permanent Committee as the source of the change, but even leaving its UK origins aside, it is an international standard i.e. the international standard term for Northern Ireland is "province".
- The best equivalent for the UN that I can find is here. It also draws on the Permanent Committee and describes Northern Ireland as a "province". (Wales is given as a "principality", I presume because it pre-dates the change in the ISO.) That report is among a series of "Reports by Governments...". The report itself is entitled the "Report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The author is given as "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". (It is prepared by the Permanent Committee and the Ordnance Survey, however.) So, quite authoritative :-) --RA (talk) 17:02, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe we should just call Northern Ireland (and England, Scotland, Wales) simply a "....part of the United Kingdom" & thus avoid country, constituent country, province etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Part is vague, insufficient and does not impart any information to the reader regarding Northern Ireland's status.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe we should just call Northern Ireland (and England, Scotland, Wales) simply a "....part of the United Kingdom" & thus avoid country, constituent country, province etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- @Jeanne, "part" is a bit vague, but what is Northern Ireland's "status" ("largely autonomous region"?)? We could fill it out by describing what sort of "part" of the UK Northern Ireland is e.g. "...a part of the United Kingdom in the north-east of the island of Ireland that is mostly self-governing since the partition of Ireland in 1922."
- In the wider picture, I think there is a perspective on the word "country" that has caused problems. It is (for reasons that I can appreciate) a cherished status symbol of sorts for people in England, Scotland and Wales. That might be the case in those places, and in some aspects of NI life (e.g. "Our wee Country" in soccer), but in general "country" in NI is Ireland or the UK.
- @Bjmullan, that is my believe too. Now that Wales has been fixed up in the ISO, it is a reasonable standard which we can follow for these terms. --RA (talk) 19:24, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't find it curious at all that any editor who you could label as possibly being of Irish nationalist viewpoint backs the change ;-) (thats a joke in case anyone misinterprets it) However Snowded's point is still extremely valid - what makes this ISO have anymore authority than the one that called Wales a principality? We still called Wales a country regardless of it. Just because the ISO now calls Wales a country why does that mean that everything has to change despite all the other sources on that collection page? I find a change based on that notion very troubling regardless of the fact i accept that Northern Ireland is a province of the UK regardless of the ISO.
In fact i have a concern in regards to this comment of yours RA - "Now that Wales has been fixed up in the ISO, it is a reasonable standard which we can follow for these terms." - that reads to me as if your saying that because the ISO now reads as to how you like it too (and also for Welsh nationalists) that we should now follow it? Mabuska (talk) 21:16, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- "…what makes this ISO have anymore authority than the one that called Wales a principality?" — They are both the same ISO. The ISO was changed in 2011 following the intervention of a Welsh politician after prompting by a Wikipedian.
- "... because the ISO now reads as to how you like it too (and also for Welsh nationalists) that we should now follow it?" — In fact, quite very opposite. The ISO source came to my attention recently on Talk:Wales when I argued that the article lacked NPOV because it failed to fairly represent the view that Wales is a "principality". In that thread I argued against attempts to cut short discussions where contributors sought to change consensus with respect to how Wales is described in the first line (i.e. as a "country").
- The United Nations document, which is identical to the former version of the ISO and was prepared by the same Permanent Committee as the ISO, was brought to my attention in 2010. I immediately argued that it was an authoritative and reliable source and added it to this article a day or two later. The source however met with great resistance on Talk:Wales. I argued for use of the source (and wanted to see it used in the article) but it's inclusion was was reverted. Indeed, if you look through Talk:Wales/Archive 11, you will see the same consistency in my argument for fair balance sources that described Wales as a "principality" and those that describe it as a "country" now as then. --RA (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's only fair and appropriate to point out that the use of the term "Province" for Northern Ireland could be seen by some as an extra-territorial claim on the whole of Ulster. But a fair and balanced article should still highlight the official terminology in the lede where it is conspicuously absent. The article should also reflect the balance of reliable independent sources, which at the moment it doesn't. --HighKing (talk) 14:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
- I am not so happy with the proposal "Northern Ireland is a province that is part of the United Kingdom". "Province" usually only means something as a territorial division of a country, but the United Kingdom does not have any other provinces. Ireland does have provinces, but Northern Ireland isn't one of them. "Part" seems better to me, but to be both more informative and neutrally descriptive, how about something like "Northern Ireland is an autonomous [or: partly autonomous] territory made up of that part of the United Kingdom located on the island of Ireland" (or, to put it the other wat round, "that part of the island of Ireland which remains part of the United Kingdom")? "Territory" is a neutral term which doesn't make any assumptions or privilege any particular view as to the status of Northern Ireland or the preferred term to use for it. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 10:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's just a different way of describing the underlying purpose of this thread - should we use "Province" because that is the accepted definition the UK Government use? I think what you're talking about there are the views of others in Ireland and segments of opinion that don't like the term - fine - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't say "this is what the UK government call it, etc..." - we could also allude to "what people of different views think about that" with sources. There have been efforts before in these articles to obtain the official view for example of the Irish Government, but they also seem to studiously avoid defining Northern Ireland by a particular phrase. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the current wording, although not perfect, is best. Whether or not Northern Ireland is normally described as a country in its own right (although it certainly is for sporting purposes; "provinces" don't have national sports teams), it is undoubtedly true that the four parts of the UK are called constituent countries, not "three constituent countries and one constituent province". What to call Northern Ireland has been a point of contention for many years, and the majority of sources – including those of the Northern Irish Assembly and Executive – appear to deliberately leave the question unanswered. Leave it as it is. — JonCॐ 11:43, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't put too much store in that table of references, or what it purports the "majority of sources" say. The case is more that the question is deliberately left unanswered because there is no satisfactory answer. In which case, we shouldn't be forcing an answer. That would be truer to a neutrality position.
- On the point that this question has been "a point of contention for many years", yes it has. "Country" was introduce in 2008. Since then there have been 13 thread on the issue. Before "country" was used, there were four threads. That would suggest that rather than addressing a point of contention, the change made it worse. --RA (talk) 11:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- In my opinion, the current wording, although not perfect, is best. Whether or not Northern Ireland is normally described as a country in its own right (although it certainly is for sporting purposes; "provinces" don't have national sports teams), it is undoubtedly true that the four parts of the UK are called constituent countries, not "three constituent countries and one constituent province". What to call Northern Ireland has been a point of contention for many years, and the majority of sources – including those of the Northern Irish Assembly and Executive – appear to deliberately leave the question unanswered. Leave it as it is. — JonCॐ 11:43, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's just a different way of describing the underlying purpose of this thread - should we use "Province" because that is the accepted definition the UK Government use? I think what you're talking about there are the views of others in Ireland and segments of opinion that don't like the term - fine - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't say "this is what the UK government call it, etc..." - we could also allude to "what people of different views think about that" with sources. There have been efforts before in these articles to obtain the official view for example of the Irish Government, but they also seem to studiously avoid defining Northern Ireland by a particular phrase. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:10, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- I am not so happy with the proposal "Northern Ireland is a province that is part of the United Kingdom". "Province" usually only means something as a territorial division of a country, but the United Kingdom does not have any other provinces. Ireland does have provinces, but Northern Ireland isn't one of them. "Part" seems better to me, but to be both more informative and neutrally descriptive, how about something like "Northern Ireland is an autonomous [or: partly autonomous] territory made up of that part of the United Kingdom located on the island of Ireland" (or, to put it the other wat round, "that part of the island of Ireland which remains part of the United Kingdom")? "Territory" is a neutral term which doesn't make any assumptions or privilege any particular view as to the status of Northern Ireland or the preferred term to use for it. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 10:13, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's only fair and appropriate to point out that the use of the term "Province" for Northern Ireland could be seen by some as an extra-territorial claim on the whole of Ulster. But a fair and balanced article should still highlight the official terminology in the lede where it is conspicuously absent. The article should also reflect the balance of reliable independent sources, which at the moment it doesn't. --HighKing (talk) 14:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)The view among reliable sources that discuss the question of 'what is Northern Ireland' is that there is no answer to that question and that all answers are unsatisfactory to one degree or another. I think if we were to be neutral with respect to reliable sources we wouldn't use any of these terms in the first sentence (and use some non-definitive term instead, like as "part" or "territory", instead).
- The section dealing with this question could be moved up (and revised) into an etymology section. We could still respect "province" elsewhere in the article, and across Wikipedia, as a sort of MOS decision (e.g. refer to it as a "province" when avoiding repetition of the word "Northern Ireland") - and use "countries of the United Kingdom" where talking en masse - but avoid suggesting a definitive answer to 'what Northern Ireland is' in the first line. --RA (talk) 11:47, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
@ HighKing - "It's only fair and appropriate to point out that the use of the term "Province" for Northern Ireland could be seen by some as an extra-territorial claim on the whole of Ulster." - Only by a few who don't know the difference that Northern Ireland is a province of the UK and Ulster is a province of Ireland.
@ComhairleContaeThirnanOg - "Province" usually only means something as a territorial division of a country, but the United Kingdom does not have any other provinces. - there is no law that states that a country must be divided up into provinces for it to have a province. Provence in France gets its name from the fact it was created as a province of the Romans, who used the term to refer to administrative and territorial units of the Roman Empire outside of Italy. Just as you could argue that Northern Ireland (until the abolition of the NI parliament) was an administrative/territorial province of the United Kingdom outside of Great Britain. Mabuska (talk) 11:26, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with High King where he said "In my opinion, when data on Wikipedia differs from ISO, what we're usually dealing with nationalistic POV"; I also agree with GoodDay that we should go with "province". Wikipedia should reflect the position; not try to shape it. NI's status per the ISO is "province"; we should accept that and incorporate it into the article. It's also consistent, rather than hotch potch politics. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 00:10, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- "Only a few who don't know the difference" - I'd say it's more logical that it's the vast majority of readers who don't know the difference, especially as provinces are unknown in the rest of the UK, and given the history of that part of the world. Where did you come up with the statement that it was only by a few? Any refs? --HighKing (talk) 15:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have you refs to the contrary that state the vast majority don't know? It's more a lack of logic if you can't tell the difference between a province of the United Kingdom and a province of Ireland. Also read my comments in full as your "provinces are unknown in the rest of the UK" is already answered in my previous statement. Mabuska (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
- No, I don't have refs. But then I didn't phrase it as fact, as in Only by a few who don't know the difference that Northern Ireland is a province of the UK and Ulster is a province of Ireland... --HighKing (talk) 01:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
- Honestly, I don't know what you two were arguing about. From where I am sitting, I think that the fact that "Northern Ireland" is the only province only makes that unique entity even more unique....it could well be mentioned in the article. 86.42.178.193 (talk) 19:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
- No, I don't have refs. But then I didn't phrase it as fact, as in Only by a few who don't know the difference that Northern Ireland is a province of the UK and Ulster is a province of Ireland... --HighKing (talk) 01:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
- Have you refs to the contrary that state the vast majority don't know? It's more a lack of logic if you can't tell the difference between a province of the United Kingdom and a province of Ireland. Also read my comments in full as your "provinces are unknown in the rest of the UK" is already answered in my previous statement. Mabuska (talk) 21:32, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
Not a 'country' (obviously)
This is about the most political claim I've ever seen in Wikipedia. The Six Counties is no more a "country" than is eastern England, or any other part of England. This is just a pathetic attempt to give historical legitimacy to the gerrymandered entity which is 'Northern Ireland'. Any honest person can see that. If anything, it's currently a region of the United Kingdom. 'Currently' being the operative word. It never was a country, or a province. It's a remnant of British colonial rule over the entire country. No more. 109.76.237.38 (talk) 21:26, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- I think we should preserve this comment as an example of WP:POV. Mabuska (talk) 23:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
Rewrite of intro
Maybe a kitchen sink approach but here's a stab at rewriting the intro. A new feautre would be a new paragraph dealing with ... wait for it ... non-political matters ;-D This is something that there have been sporadic comments about: that reading the article, one would think there is nothing in Northern Ireland except for history and politics.
I haven't written this section, I'm not sure what to include. Some obvious things are music, sport (golf, soccer, and include all-Ireland aspect), and economics.
Northern Ireland (Irish: Tuaisceart Éireann pronounced [ˈt̪ˠuəʃcəɾˠt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ] , Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann or Norlin Airlan) is a part of the United Kingdom in the north-east of the island of Ireland. It shares a border with the Republic of Ireland to the south and west. At the time of the 2001 UK Census, its population was 1,685,000, constituting about 30% of the island's total population and about 3% of the population of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is largely self-governing and co-operates with the the rest of Ireland, from which it was partitioned in 1921, on some policy areas. Other areas are reserved for the Government of the United Kingdom, upon which the Republic of Ireland may "may put forward views and proposals".
...
[INSERT NEW PARAGRAPH DEALINGING WITH NON POLITICAL THINGS HERE — E.G. SPORT, MUSIC, ECONOMY, GEOGRAPHY]
...
Northern Ireland was for many years the site of a violent and bitter inter-communal conflict — the Troubles — which was caused by divisions between nationalists, who are predominantly Roman Catholic, and unionists, who are predominantly Protestant. Unionists want Northern Ireland to remain as a part of the United Kingdom, while nationalists wish for it to be politically reunited with the rest of Ireland. Since the signing of the "Good Friday Agreement" in 1998, most of the paramilitary groups involved in the Troubles have ceased their armed campaigns.
Owing to its unique history, the issue of the symbolism, name and description of Northern Ireland is complex, as is the issue of citizenship and identity. In general, unionists see themselves as British and nationalists see themselves as Irish, though these identities are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Additionally, people from both sides of the community may describe themselves as Northern Irish.
--RA (talk) 23:05, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see the point unless England/Scotland/Wales also have their intros changed to state "a part of the United Kingdom". If they were also changed to match i'd support this proposal. Mabuska (talk) 23:17, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see why Northern Ireland should be treated as if it were identical to England, Scotland or Wales. That may be an ideal some may have but it isn't a fair reflection of a neutral point of view on the subject. Anyway, the introduction here is already different from England, Scotland and Wales for that reason.
- In any case, there's more to the rewrite above than just the first sentence. --RA (talk) 23:21, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
- It's the closest thing to NPOV I've seen in a long time, although (question) could it be said that you should also mention "country" and "province" in the intro? I wouldn't even attempt to craft a sentence but I'm thinking "Northern Ireland is sometimes referred to as a Province (ref) or a Country (ref)". And dag-darn it but I really hate to see "Republic of Ireland" all in caps like that but that's a different discussion. --HighKing (talk) 13:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
- Looks bett6er to me, after a small correction. Since the status of Northern Ireland is treated very differently by reliable sources to those of England, Scotland and Wales I don't see that argument holding water. 2 lines of K303 13:58, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
- Looks better to me - I've never adhered to the "one description fits all" idea. Clearly some sources support that line, but this appears more neutral to me. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
- Also looks good to me. Since when has NI ever been treated the same as the rest of the UK in any respect. One size doesn't fit all in this case. Bjmullan (talk) 00:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- The UK is not symmetrical, so NI should be considered on its own merits. Having identical wordings in England/Scotland/Wales implies a symmetry which does not exist in reality and Wikipedia should not give the impression that it exists. Perhaps a wording could be used that NI is part/component of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so indicating clearly that it is a significant part. Ardmacha (talk) 22:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that this is an improvement. I also agree that if one particular phrase has been agreed for use in the opening sentences of the articles on Scotland, England and Wales, that is not in itself a particularly strong argument for its use in the opening sentence here - all the more so since, as pointed out above, it is controversial and there's a very strong case that presenting it as an uncontested "definition" of Northern Ireland does not reflect the usage of the Northern Ireland authorities themselves. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
- The UK is not symmetrical, so NI should be considered on its own merits. Having identical wordings in England/Scotland/Wales implies a symmetry which does not exist in reality and Wikipedia should not give the impression that it exists. Perhaps a wording could be used that NI is part/component of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so indicating clearly that it is a significant part. Ardmacha (talk) 22:20, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Also looks good to me. Since when has NI ever been treated the same as the rest of the UK in any respect. One size doesn't fit all in this case. Bjmullan (talk) 00:19, 24 February 2012 (UTC)
- Looks better to me - I've never adhered to the "one description fits all" idea. Clearly some sources support that line, but this appears more neutral to me. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:24, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
New intro paragraphs on economy and culture
This is quite alien territory, so I don't expect to get it right first time, but here's a stab at "non-political" content to go with the suggestion above. I suggest that rather than working out details here and binding ourselves to some "agreement", that once a generally acceptable idea for the text is found that the details be worked out, over time, in the usual fashion, in the article itself:
Northern Ireland (Irish: Tuaisceart Éireann pronounced [ˈt̪ˠuəʃcəɾˠt̪ˠ ˈeːɾʲən̪ˠ] , Ulster Scots: Norlin Airlann or Norlin Airlan) is ...
Northern Ireland has the smallest economy of the twelve statistical regions of the United Kingdom. Traditionally the most industrialized region of Ireland, the economy of Northern Ireland declined as a result of political and social turmoil in the second half of the 20th century. The economy grew significantly since the 1990s, in part due to a "peace dividend" and in part due to links with the Celtic Tiger economy of the Republic of Ireland, with which trade grew substantially.
Northern Ireland has a vibrant cultural scene that has produced world-renowned artists and sports persons such as Seamus Heaney, Van Morrison, Rory McIlroy and George Best. Cultural links between Northern Ireland, the rest of Ireland and the rest of the UK are complex, with Northern Ireland sharing both the culture of Ireland and the culture of the United Kingdom. In many sports, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland field a single team, a notable exception being soccer. Northern Ireland competes separately at the Commonwealth Games and people from Northern Ireland may compete for either Great Britain or Ireland at the Olympic Games.
Northern Ireland was for many years...