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:Leads don't need to have references. See [[WP:LEAD]]. They summarise the article. The article is referenced, so there is no problem. Have you tried looking for sources yourself, to satisfy your concern? You could start at Google Scholar:[http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=%22New%20antisemitism%22&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws]. [[User:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:red;">Fences</span>]]<span style="background-color:white; color:#808080;">&</span>[[User talk:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:black;">Windows</span>]] 21:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC) |
:Leads don't need to have references. See [[WP:LEAD]]. They summarise the article. The article is referenced, so there is no problem. Have you tried looking for sources yourself, to satisfy your concern? You could start at Google Scholar:[http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=%22New%20antisemitism%22&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=ws]. [[User:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:red;">Fences</span>]]<span style="background-color:white; color:#808080;">&</span>[[User talk:Fences and windows|<span style="background-color:white; color:black;">Windows</span>]] 21:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC) |
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==Arguments against the image== |
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Background: I've removed an image from this article that features the words "Judios go home" along with a hammer and sickle. The picture was apparently taken in Caracas in 2009. |
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My reasons for reasons for removing the image are as follows: |
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*It's not advisable to load this page up with images that "demonstrate the concept," when the concept itself is disputed. |
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*While the image is unquestionably anti-Semitic, it is also anonymous and fringe. It's not difficult to find obscure whackjobs carrying anti-Semitic signs at public demonstrations pertaining to the Middle East. Demonstrating that these signs represent anything more than the idiocy of their creators is another matter. Btw, we already have one such image in the same section; having two would seem to belabour the point. |
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*This article is not a catalogue of recent or contemporary anti-Semitic graffiti (in fact, it's not even about recent or contemporary anti-Semitism, per se). |
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*The picture is not notable, and the fact that it was apparently taken in Caracas does not make it so. "Engage," the online journal that published it, is not a notable source. |
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*The entire thing seems like a violation of [[WP:POINT]]. The person who claims to have taken the picture writes, ''In this case, I took a photo to an antisemitic graffiti, signed by a Venezuelan Communist organization, with the expression "judíos (Jews) go home". There are many antisemitic graffiti in Caracas, most of them painted by pro-Chavist supporters. We have no authority nor evidence to decide if they are "an attempt to discredit the government and its supporters", specially knowing that antisemitism is very common among those ideological groups (whom knows Spanish, I recommend him to visit the Chavist "Aporrea" website), although the government of Hugo Chávez, in public, officially condemn it, saying they are "only anti-zionists"'' Leaving aside a possible conflict-of-interest, this statement comes very close to acknowledging a more general political intent for publicizing the image. One of the other editors who favoured retention of the article made reference to the "sell-hating [sic] anti-Semitic Jew Karl Marx" in support of his/her arguments. There is a legitimate debate to be had concerning the relationship between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in modern Venezuela (and perhaps more could be said about this subject in the article space), but reducing the matter to caricature is inappropriate. |
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*I do not believe there was ever a significant consensus to keep the article. The discussion that took place a few months ago on this front involved only a small number of editors. A third contributor to the debate, john k, never signed off on the image, while the fourth made reference to it as "an illustration of contemporary antisemitic graffiti" (which, as I've said, is not quite relevant to the focus of the article). In any event, the article traffic in June/July seems to have been rather low. |
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With this in mind, I'm going to remove the image again. I await responses. [[User:CJCurrie|CJCurrie]] ([[User talk:CJCurrie|talk]]) 05:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:09, 3 September 2010
New antisemitism was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Previous consensus discussions |
This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Academic studies
A 2009 study entitled "Modern Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israeli Attitudes", published in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology in 2009, tested new theoretical model of anti-Semitism with 3 experiments. The research team's theoretical model proposed that mortality salience (reminding people that they will someday die) increases anti-Semitism and that anti-Semitism is often expressed as anti-Israel attitudes. The first experiment showed that mortality salience led to higher levels of anti-Semitism and lower levels of support for Israel. The study’s methodology was designed to tease out anti-Semitic attitudes that are concealed by polite people . The second experiment showed that mortality salience caused people to perceive Israel as very important, but did not cause them to perceive any other country this way. The third experiment showed that mortality salience led to a desire to punish Israel for human rights violations but not to a desire to punish Russia or India for identical human rights violations. According to the researchers, their results “suggest that Jews constitute a unique cultural threat to many people’s worldviews, that anti-Semitism causes hostility to Israel, and that hostility to Israel may feed back to increase anti-Semitism.” Furthermore, "those claiming that there is no connection between antisemitism and hostility toward Israel are wrong."[1]
A 2006 study in the Journal of Conflict Resolution argued that although almost no respondents in countries of the European Union regarded themselves as antisemitic, antisemitic attitudes correlated with anti-Israel opinions.[2] Looking at populations in 10 European countries, Small and Kaplan surveyed 5,000 respondents, asking them about Israeli actions and classical anti-Semitic stereotypes. "There were questions about whether the IDF purposely targets children, whether Israel poisons the Palestinians' water supply - these sorts of extreme mythologies," Small says. "The people who believed the anti-Israel mythologies also tended to believe that Jews are not honest in business, have dual loyalties, control government and the economy, and the like," Small says. According to this study, anti-Israel respondents were 56% more likely to be anti-Semitic than the average European. "This is extraordinary. It's off the charts." says Small. The study also found that popular levels of both antisemitism and anti-Israel opinion were lower than expected, and did not equate antisemitism with anti-Zionism.[3]
==References}
- ^ Modern Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israeli Attitudes, Florette Cohen, Department of Psychology, The College of Staten Island, City University New York; Lee Jussim, Department of Psychology, Rutgers University, New Brunswick; Kent D. Harber, Department of Psychology, Rutgers University, Newark; Gautam Bhasin, Department of Counseling, Columbia Teacher’s College, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2009, Vol. 97, No. 2, 290–306 [1]
- ^ Kaplan, E. H., & Small, C. A. (2006). Anti-Israel sentiment predicts anti-Semitism in Europe. Journal of Conflict Resolution, 50, 548–561.
- ^ Yale expert: Not enough known about anti-Semitism, Aug. 8, 2007, Haviv Rettig Gur , THE JERUSALEM POST [2]
Abba Eban’s 1973 identification of ‘the new anti-Semitism’
The cite seemed most relevant, considering the context provided. A more accurate date would be nice; it was an important year. Generally an older ref’d usage of the neologism would seem important, before others started writing about it. Used italics instead of a blockquote. Any problems with it? Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 08:35, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Is Briain Klug really comparable with Bernard Lewis and Yehuda Bauer?
The article implies parity, each has a photo and appears to have a seciton devoted to their opinions but Klug is just a research fellow while the other two are noted historians, professors and department heads. Finkelstein is well known and this is his territory but Klug doesn't even research this particular field. (BTW Finkelstein is mentioned twice, both in the Klug section and then has his own section). To prove Klug's credentials the fact that he testified to the paliamentary inquiry into antisemitism is mentioned, but the conclusions of that inquiry are given only passing reference and much lower down in the local issues section, depsite the fact that those conclusions have bearing on this issue. Telaviv1 (talk) 13:18, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
- He may not be as well established as some others, but then, a much greater proportion of his work seems to focus on this topic. I believe that is how he is presented here, as a specialist, rather than as an eminent figure in a broader sense. He is a research fellow in philosophy, but most of his work seems to focus on Judaism and antisemitism. He holds a number of other relevant positions. See his faculty page, which notes current research interests as, "Currently working on questions of Jewish identity, race, prejudice and antisemitism,"[3] and also the profile here. Generally speaking I think it's appropriate to have a balance of different types of commentators on a given subject. Mackan79 (talk) 09:29, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
Lost talk archives
Talk:New anti-Semitism/archive toc and the archives it links to seem to have been lost (at least the toc is an orphan). They should be linked to here...--Oneiros (talk) 18:17, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
Judios go home
The graffiti is dubious given that it is in English and not Spanish. This suggests it may have been done in order to get attention in the US and therefore may be an attempt to discredit the government and its supporters.68.171.231.16 (talk) 06:29, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- In Latin America, the expression "gringos go home" is quite common among radical third-world, marxist and fascist movements. In this case, I took a photo to an antisemitic graffiti, signed by a Venezuelan Communist organization, with the expression "judíos (Jews) go home". There are many antisemitic graffiti in Caracas, most of them painted by pro-Chavist supporters. We have no authority nor evidence to decide if they are "an attempt to discredit the government and its supporters", specially knowing that antisemitism is very common among those ideological groups (whom knows Spanish, I recommend him to visit the Chavist "Aporrea" website), although the government of Hugo Chávez, in public, officially condemn it, saying they are "only anti-zionists".--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 20:39, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Do we have authority to say that some random graffiti in Venezuela is significant to include in this article? It strikes me as pretty clearly OR. john k (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- It isn't a "random graffiti". It is a symbol of the new antisemitism, characterized by the left-wing involvement.--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 00:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- In this article is explained that new antisemitism is characterized by radical left-wing, ultra right-wing and islamist movements. This picture is an antisemitic graffiti, signed by an alleged Venezuelan Communist organization. What's the problem? Why are you trying to hide it?--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to hide it, I'm just kind of dubious. The rules for original research are a bit lighter for images, but that's so that we can do things like go out and take pictures of landmarks and then include them without people saying that such a picture is original research. Pictures are not excluded from OR entirely, though, and this particular picture seems like a clear case of OR. If I took a picture of, say, the Philadelphia City Hall and put it in the Philadelphia City Hall article as illustrating the topic, that is one thing. Taking a picture of a graffiti you see and say that this exemplifies an abstract topic like "new anti-semitism" seems like it's pretty clearly on a higher level of abstraction, and strikes me as a novel synthesis forbidden under our prohibition of original research. How can we even confirm that this is a real graffiti in Caracas? john k (talk) 04:44, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- We cannot confirm many pictures that are displayed in Wikipedia articles, but does it mean they should not be used? For example I took this image File:Play fight IMG 3018.JPG in a ZOO, but if I did not say it was a ZOO image, one would have never guessed it was. Many communist organizations and communist leaders were known for their antisemitism, for example sell-hating anti-Semitic Jew Karl Marx and one of the biggest anti-Semites of the entire time Stalin. So there's nothing strange in the discussed image. Please let it stay in the article --Mbz1 (talk) 05:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- For this specific article, it doesn't matter if the picture is in Caracas or Indonesia. Are you agree with me that this is an antisemitic graffiti of an alleged Communist organization?--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 05:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- How about taking this to the WP:ORN and getting some more views about whether it can be used in this article and if so what the caption can say without it being original research ? For what it's worth, I don't see a problem with using it in this article. It's clearly antisemitic, I'm not sure there's anything very "new" about it but I'm not sure that matters very much. It's an illustration of contemporary antisemitic graffiti. It's the caption that seems more problematic, "alleged Communist organization". Who is alleging that ? Apparently us even though anyone could have done it. If the caption just said something simple like the picture just below it, something like "Graffiti in Caracas, 2009" I don't really see a reason to exclude it. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fine with me any way. If you'd like to change the caption please do--Mbz1 (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Here, for interest, is a wider shot of the graffiti which I assume is taken from a presentation by Sammy Eppel (B'nai B'rith). The presentation itself, which might be useful, seems to be a bit difficult to track down but I assume it's out there somewhere. Sean.hoyland - talk 10:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fine with me any way. If you'd like to change the caption please do--Mbz1 (talk) 17:08, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- How about taking this to the WP:ORN and getting some more views about whether it can be used in this article and if so what the caption can say without it being original research ? For what it's worth, I don't see a problem with using it in this article. It's clearly antisemitic, I'm not sure there's anything very "new" about it but I'm not sure that matters very much. It's an illustration of contemporary antisemitic graffiti. It's the caption that seems more problematic, "alleged Communist organization". Who is alleging that ? Apparently us even though anyone could have done it. If the caption just said something simple like the picture just below it, something like "Graffiti in Caracas, 2009" I don't really see a reason to exclude it. Sean.hoyland - talk 16:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- For this specific article, it doesn't matter if the picture is in Caracas or Indonesia. Are you agree with me that this is an antisemitic graffiti of an alleged Communist organization?--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 05:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- We cannot confirm many pictures that are displayed in Wikipedia articles, but does it mean they should not be used? For example I took this image File:Play fight IMG 3018.JPG in a ZOO, but if I did not say it was a ZOO image, one would have never guessed it was. Many communist organizations and communist leaders were known for their antisemitism, for example sell-hating anti-Semitic Jew Karl Marx and one of the biggest anti-Semites of the entire time Stalin. So there's nothing strange in the discussed image. Please let it stay in the article --Mbz1 (talk) 05:52, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to hide it, I'm just kind of dubious. The rules for original research are a bit lighter for images, but that's so that we can do things like go out and take pictures of landmarks and then include them without people saying that such a picture is original research. Pictures are not excluded from OR entirely, though, and this particular picture seems like a clear case of OR. If I took a picture of, say, the Philadelphia City Hall and put it in the Philadelphia City Hall article as illustrating the topic, that is one thing. Taking a picture of a graffiti you see and say that this exemplifies an abstract topic like "new anti-semitism" seems like it's pretty clearly on a higher level of abstraction, and strikes me as a novel synthesis forbidden under our prohibition of original research. How can we even confirm that this is a real graffiti in Caracas? john k (talk) 04:44, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- In this article is explained that new antisemitism is characterized by radical left-wing, ultra right-wing and islamist movements. This picture is an antisemitic graffiti, signed by an alleged Venezuelan Communist organization. What's the problem? Why are you trying to hide it?--AndresHerutJaim (talk) 02:22, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
accepted term?
"new antisemitism"? Sounds like a made up term, I think the introduction (the first sentences of this article) should add some sources, otherwhise this aricle feel very biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MUCHERS22 (talk • contribs) 12:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- The term is fairly well established -- the controversy is whether it validly describes a real phenomenon... AnonMoos (talk) 16:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- At a minimum among people who think that many "far-left" types have gone over the edge into anti-Jewish bigotry, and among those who reject the allegation that many "far-left" types have gone over the edge into anti-Jewish bigotry. The controversy gained a fair amount of prominence with the passage of UNGA Resolution 3379 of 1975 (which for some reason seems to be barely mentioned in the article). AnonMoos (talk) 17:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Well who are those peoples, why arent there a single source? Right now it seems like a made up term to put on 'dissidents. Also the 3379 isnt necessary antisemtic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MUCHERS22 (talk • contribs) 18:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- There is no source because no source is necessary. Writers on all sides of the debate use the phrase "new antisemitism" (sometimes in quotation marks), but there is no issue regarding the phrase. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 20:26, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
"There is no source because no source is necessary." Is that enough on Wikipedia? I doubt that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MUCHERS22 (talk • contribs) 07:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- I think he means that no formal academic scholarly studies are needed to establish the notability of a concept which is often referred to in political discussions and arguments which have been covered in numerous media outlets... AnonMoos (talk) 10:53, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I dont want to come out like a wiseguy or something but is there any sources that could be added? Just want to know how established this "term" is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MUCHERS22 (talk • contribs) 13:15, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Dude, the article currently has 60 footnotes, plus numerous "references", plus numerous "further readings". Maybe you could indicate specifically and in detail what is not already covered by the current sourcing apparatus? AnonMoos (talk) 17:16, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Leads don't need to have references. See WP:LEAD. They summarise the article. The article is referenced, so there is no problem. Have you tried looking for sources yourself, to satisfy your concern? You could start at Google Scholar:[4]. Fences&Windows 21:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
Arguments against the image
Background: I've removed an image from this article that features the words "Judios go home" along with a hammer and sickle. The picture was apparently taken in Caracas in 2009.
My reasons for reasons for removing the image are as follows:
- It's not advisable to load this page up with images that "demonstrate the concept," when the concept itself is disputed.
- While the image is unquestionably anti-Semitic, it is also anonymous and fringe. It's not difficult to find obscure whackjobs carrying anti-Semitic signs at public demonstrations pertaining to the Middle East. Demonstrating that these signs represent anything more than the idiocy of their creators is another matter. Btw, we already have one such image in the same section; having two would seem to belabour the point.
- This article is not a catalogue of recent or contemporary anti-Semitic graffiti (in fact, it's not even about recent or contemporary anti-Semitism, per se).
- The picture is not notable, and the fact that it was apparently taken in Caracas does not make it so. "Engage," the online journal that published it, is not a notable source.
- The entire thing seems like a violation of WP:POINT. The person who claims to have taken the picture writes, In this case, I took a photo to an antisemitic graffiti, signed by a Venezuelan Communist organization, with the expression "judíos (Jews) go home". There are many antisemitic graffiti in Caracas, most of them painted by pro-Chavist supporters. We have no authority nor evidence to decide if they are "an attempt to discredit the government and its supporters", specially knowing that antisemitism is very common among those ideological groups (whom knows Spanish, I recommend him to visit the Chavist "Aporrea" website), although the government of Hugo Chávez, in public, officially condemn it, saying they are "only anti-zionists" Leaving aside a possible conflict-of-interest, this statement comes very close to acknowledging a more general political intent for publicizing the image. One of the other editors who favoured retention of the article made reference to the "sell-hating [sic] anti-Semitic Jew Karl Marx" in support of his/her arguments. There is a legitimate debate to be had concerning the relationship between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism in modern Venezuela (and perhaps more could be said about this subject in the article space), but reducing the matter to caricature is inappropriate.
- I do not believe there was ever a significant consensus to keep the article. The discussion that took place a few months ago on this front involved only a small number of editors. A third contributor to the debate, john k, never signed off on the image, while the fourth made reference to it as "an illustration of contemporary antisemitic graffiti" (which, as I've said, is not quite relevant to the focus of the article). In any event, the article traffic in June/July seems to have been rather low.
With this in mind, I'm going to remove the image again. I await responses. CJCurrie (talk) 05:59, 3 September 2010 (UTC)