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:Swalker, your argument is self-defeating. Numerous articles on Nazism quote from Mein Kampf. Wikipedia is not censored, so whether it might offend someone is beside the point. The quotation is the same whether it is footnoted to a primary or a secondary source. Secondary sources are preferred where there is a danger of OR but there is no rule against quoting primary sources, expecially since there is no dispute about content here. Haeckel was not extreme at all in his day, he was highly distinguished. You are misrepresenting the policy about the 'majority viewpoint'. This refers to the opinion of the majority of specialists about matters of fact. It does not mean that you can't quote from the opinions of someone if that opinion is contrary to what the majority of people think. That's the road to absurdity. That way quotations from atheists would be banned even in an article about atheism because they might offend someone and because they contradict the majority view on the existence of God. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 14:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC) |
:Swalker, your argument is self-defeating. Numerous articles on Nazism quote from Mein Kampf. Wikipedia is not censored, so whether it might offend someone is beside the point. The quotation is the same whether it is footnoted to a primary or a secondary source. Secondary sources are preferred where there is a danger of OR but there is no rule against quoting primary sources, expecially since there is no dispute about content here. Haeckel was not extreme at all in his day, he was highly distinguished. You are misrepresenting the policy about the 'majority viewpoint'. This refers to the opinion of the majority of specialists about matters of fact. It does not mean that you can't quote from the opinions of someone if that opinion is contrary to what the majority of people think. That's the road to absurdity. That way quotations from atheists would be banned even in an article about atheism because they might offend someone and because they contradict the majority view on the existence of God. [[User:Paul Barlow|Paul B]] 14:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC) |
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::Schwalker, [[WP:NOTCENSORED|Wikipedia is not censored]]. If you feel offended because we are citing Hitler, then seriously, that's your personal issue. We don't take sides here on Wikipedia because we have to be [[WP:NPOV]]. If you think Hitler was evil, that's fine, but we are as Wikipedians, obliged to write encyclopaedic articles about the Nazi ideology without bias. That means, we have to use primary sources in many cases. And for the record, what they did in Sparta with their infanticide policy, was simply eugenics and nothing else. That is why Hitler lauded Sparta, because he favoured their eugenics practise. As for the Nazi eugenics victims, you can mourn them all you like in real life. But don't take it out on Wikipedia. As someone said last time you complained on [[WP:ANI]] about this: you're trying to make a federal case out of nothing. Move on. — <small><small>[[User:EliasAlucard|EliasAlucard]]|[[User talk:EliasAlucard|Talk]] 18:07 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)</small></small> |
Revision as of 16:12, 1 October 2007
Page name
This page should probably be called Eugenics in Nazi Germany, no? --Fastfission 02:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Nazism and religion Nazi mysticism Nazi architecture Category:Nazi physicians Nazi human experimentation Nazism and race Nazi songs Nazi mysticism etc... Nazi Search Mengela 02:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, okay. The one which is most related in its grammatical syntax is probably Nazi architecture or Nazi human experimentation (both of which could easily mean "Architecture in Nazi Germany" or "Human experimentation in Nazi Germany"). Anyway, it was just a thought. "Nazi eugenics" looks wrong to my eye, but it doesn't matter much and consistency is probably more important anyway. --Fastfission 03:00, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Israel, too
Israel sterilized Ethiopian Jews (women, I believe) who had immigrated to the newly formed state. This went on until the 1970's. Please check these facts and add to the list of countries that had sterilization policies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.60.17.112 (talk) 12:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC).
- Evidence? Paul B 12:42, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
- This is a page about Nazi eugenics, not about compulsory sterilization. Tazmaniacs 15:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Biological engineering
The article said genetic engineering but in reality it was Biological, because genetic had not been invented yet no one knew anything about genetics, genetics were invented in the 50s with the discovery of DNA in 1958 the correct historical term is biological engineering, since A genetics were not invented, B no one was targeting the genetics but where you were born and what you looked like which has nothing to do with genetics but biology, people actually have LESS genetic similarity with their neighbors then do with people from other countries, and again GENETICS HAD NOT BEEN INVENTED in the 30s or 40s Shearsteps 03:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- The concept of Genes dates back to the 1900s. In any case, the word genetic just means "of origins" (hence Genesis, miscegenation etc (Latin miscere “to mix” + genus (“kind”) ). It was widely used in the early 20th century. Paul B 09:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- The german term seems to be "Erbgesundheitsgerichten" - Hereditary Health Courts. Paul B 10:26, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Mention that eugenics was practiced and promoted in many more places than Germany then and now. Euthanasia I am less familiar with ( we take the 5th I guess) but there must have been cases of governments using this - ie I doubt Germany thought this up in a vacuum.159.105.80.141 14:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Homosexuals "Lebensunwertes Leben"? since when?
I'm seriously asking. --HanzoHattori 20:07, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
This article must not rely on primary nazi sources
Readers, who could be affected by nazi eugenic measures, or who have acquaintances or relatives who are victim of nazi eugenics could feel threated or offended, if wikipedia would use nazi criminals as a direct source. Also, if nazi sources would be used, the victims of nazi eugenics would not, and never could, have an equal chance to present their point of view about nazi eugenics. So if the nazis can speak up and present their ideology, while the victims have to remain silent in the article, wikipedia would factually accept the results of the crimes (euthanasia, sterilization,...). The only method I see for wikipedia in order to give a critical account of Nazi ideology is to rely on good secondary sources which explain nazi ideology. Relevant rules are
- WP:RS#Scholarship: "Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic."
- WP:RS#Extremist_sources:(...) should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution."
- WP:WEIGHT:Wikipedia "must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint".
I've therefore removed the primary sources Haeckel (who may not be a nazi but holds an extremist view, too) and Hitler, in which they approve of or demand infanticide. Instead, I've inserted a version using secondary sources. I also consider to ask wikipedia-admins (again) to stop the insertion of primary nazi sources into this (and other) articles.
--Schwalker 13:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Swalker, your argument is self-defeating. Numerous articles on Nazism quote from Mein Kampf. Wikipedia is not censored, so whether it might offend someone is beside the point. The quotation is the same whether it is footnoted to a primary or a secondary source. Secondary sources are preferred where there is a danger of OR but there is no rule against quoting primary sources, expecially since there is no dispute about content here. Haeckel was not extreme at all in his day, he was highly distinguished. You are misrepresenting the policy about the 'majority viewpoint'. This refers to the opinion of the majority of specialists about matters of fact. It does not mean that you can't quote from the opinions of someone if that opinion is contrary to what the majority of people think. That's the road to absurdity. That way quotations from atheists would be banned even in an article about atheism because they might offend someone and because they contradict the majority view on the existence of God. Paul B 14:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
- Schwalker, Wikipedia is not censored. If you feel offended because we are citing Hitler, then seriously, that's your personal issue. We don't take sides here on Wikipedia because we have to be WP:NPOV. If you think Hitler was evil, that's fine, but we are as Wikipedians, obliged to write encyclopaedic articles about the Nazi ideology without bias. That means, we have to use primary sources in many cases. And for the record, what they did in Sparta with their infanticide policy, was simply eugenics and nothing else. That is why Hitler lauded Sparta, because he favoured their eugenics practise. As for the Nazi eugenics victims, you can mourn them all you like in real life. But don't take it out on Wikipedia. As someone said last time you complained on WP:ANI about this: you're trying to make a federal case out of nothing. Move on. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:07 01 Oct, 2007 (UTC)