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Dear Sirs, |
Dear Sirs, |
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I greatly appreciate uploading original photos but they are of very poor quality. please consider editing them or replacing them with better pictures. [[User:Bassenius|Bassenius]] 16:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC) I would also like to clarify the notion of being "officially" part of Azerbaijan. I think this is a confusing formulation. Some countries recognize NK as part of Az. but some refuse to take position or retain a stance which is not revealing of their stance. [[User:Bassenius|Bassenius]] 15:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
I greatly appreciate uploading original photos but they are of very poor quality. please consider editing them or replacing them with better pictures. [[User:Bassenius|Bassenius]] 16:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC) I would also like to clarify the notion of being "officially" part of Azerbaijan. I think this is a confusing formulation. Some countries recognize NK as part of Az. but some refuse to take position or retain a stance which is not revealing of their stance. [[User:Bassenius|Bassenius]] 15:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
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== Recent attempts to change the intro == |
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The following has been proposed to be the first graf of the intro: |
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:'''Nagorno-Karabakh''' is a ''[[de facto]]'' [[independence|independent]] [[republic]] located in the [[South Caucasus]]. The international status of '''Nagorno-Karabakh''' is a source of dispute. Some countries and international organizations, especially in their interactions with Baku, consider it to be part of the Republic of [[Azerbaijan]]. However, most foreign entities officially admit that the final status of the region should be formulated in the process of ongoing negotiations. |
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Utterly unsourced, and tries to make a roundabout statement that, while it's generally considered part of Azerbaijan, it's wink-wink-nudge-nudge considered independent. I don't think this is going to fly, as it's unsourced in the article. Yes, while saying "officially" part of Azerbaijan may be kludgy, it's the best method that was agreed on, and matches the position of the United Nations. At best, we could change it to "a de facto independent republic within the borders of Azerbaijan", which was a proposal I made sometime last year I think, and would make it match the articles on the similar regions of [[South Ossetia]], [[Abkhazia]], and [[Transnistria]]; however, if I recall, that was considered a little unwieldly; but since it's been adopted on the other articles, it may work now. However, as with all changes to the intro, these need to be discussed extensively on the talk page before being made. This intro is the result of many months of mediation between the two sides, and it will not be changed on a whim. --[[User:Golbez|Golbez]] 23:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Proposed change Apr 4
Here's the proposed change:
From:
The predominantly Armenian region became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918. After the Soviet Union expanded into the South Caucasus, it established the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) within the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.
To:
The historically Armenian region became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918. After the Soviet Union expanded into the South Caucasus, it established the the predominantly Armenian region as the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO) within the Azerbaijan SSR in 1923.
My thoughts: Calling it a historically Armenian region definitely requires a cite, but it also goes against our philosophy that we know nothing about Nagorno-Karabakh prior to 1923. (Or is it 1918? Either way, no one knows what was going on there prior to the 20th century). Secondly, Grandmaster's old point have become clearer and clearer to me over time, you can't really 'establish a region' in this fashion. Maybe if you rearranged it; "Established the NKAO in the predominantly Armenian region"? The problem here is generally this, I think: - we have to mention that the region was predominantly Armenian when the NKAO was established, but I can see the point of view of people who say we also need to mention that it is still predominantly Armenian.
Discuss please. There will be no mentions of the arbitration or attempts to create or quash POV here. This is on the merits of the entry; you can say that it introduces a POV, but please do not accuse editors of that. This will be civil, damn it. --Golbez 16:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- I strongly object to inclusion of such POV claims as "historically Armenian", etc. It was explained in much detail here: [1] Karabakh was part of Caucasian Albania in antiquity, and Karabakh khanate at later times. Inclusion of such claims and ignoring real history of the region is against the NPOV rules. Grandmaster 16:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think the current verion is alright, it says that the region is predominantly Armenian, and it is clear that it was predominantly Armenian in 1923. We don't have to fit everything into one sentence, there's a whole article about history and demographics of the region at variuos times. Grandmaster 16:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498698/0000498698_0009.gif de-classified CIA file calling NK "historically Armenian". This could be used as a citation. - Fedayee 16:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- I can cite many other sources, including the US government, stating otherwise. Grandmaster 17:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498698/0000498698_0009.gif de-classified CIA file calling NK "historically Armenian". This could be used as a citation. - Fedayee 16:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Neither NK (a 20th century creation), nor Karabakh can be a historically Armenian region when Armenian's didn't make up a majority there, nor did it ever belong to Armenia (see the section below, (Karabakh has been part of Caucasian Albania and later Azerbaijani (Muslim) dynasties and empires). --adil 18:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, your argument about rearranging it to "Established the NKAO in the predominantly Armenian region" make sense, but it brings up a question of precedent: the reader might assume that Azerbaijan has ALWAYS controlled or even laid claim to NK, and that's why it's important to state that the region was "historically Armenian" in the beginning of the intro... I would personally accept the rearrangement as long as the "historically Armenian" portion was added to the first line, which would set a clear basis for introducing Azerbaijan's influence in that second sentence and wouldn't leave room for misinterpretations.
- Adil, your argumentation is totally biased and completely fictious. I won't even bother refuting it since Azerbaijan can't even pretend to have as much historical claim on NK or even Karabakh as Armenia.
- As for the real debate about whether the region was historically Armenian, I think that all editors who are neutrally informed about NK know very well that Armenians have been the only omnipresent nation in the region regardless of other occupiers (needless to say that there have been other strong influences in the region), and that is what we need to convey to first-time readers in order to correctly set the current geopolitical context of NK. Now if we stick to Golbez's rule that we know nothing prior to the 20th century, the least we can do is set that context with "historically Armenian" in the first sentence... You can call it what you wish, but apples are apples, and most first-time readers will be confused if we don't give them a basic context right off the bat in that first sentence...
- As for citations, I'd suggest the following neutral (non-Armenian or non-Azeri) scholarly sources:
- http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2000/issue4/jv4n4a6.html NOVIKOVA Gayane, "Armenia and the Middle East", Middle East Review of International Affairs Journal, Vol. 4 No. 4, December 2000 - "Azerbaijani diplomacy tries to convince Arab states that this conflict is a territorial dispute between Christian Armenia and Muslim Azerbaijan, exploiting the religious factor in an attempt to gain support of the Muslim world. However, some Arab states admit that the territory of Nagorno Karabakh is historically Armenian, and most prefer that the dispute be settled peacefully.".
- http://www.umd.umich.edu/dept/armenian/facts/karabagh.html "Fact Sheet: Nagorno-Karabakh", Armenian Research Center, The University of Michigan-Dearborn, April 3 1996 - The first line of the "Historical Background" section states "Historically Armenian, Nagorno-Karabagh was connected to Armenia in ancient times [...]".
- As for CIA sources, an analysis of recently declassified CIA documents reveals a pattern over the past twenty-five years of official - although confidential — acknowledgment of the fact that Nagorno Karabakh is a historic part of Armenia:
- http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000498698/0000498698_0009.gif A chronology of Nagorno Karabakh prepared in August of 1990 - It included the following entry: "1921-23: New Soviet Government makes Nagorno Karabakh - historically an Armenian area — an autonomous region within the Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan."
- http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0004.gif
http://www.foia.cia.gov/docs/DOC_0000499607/0000499607_0009.gif A 1988 study on the Caucasus - the study confirms the historical record of Nagorno Karabakh's status as "Armenia's cultural and religious center.". The study specifically noted that, "Karabakh through the centuries remained semiautonomous under the rule of Armenian princes even when the rest of Armenia was under Persian and Turkish tutelage.".HyeProfile 19:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
HyeProfile, "your argumentation is totally biased and completely fictious", as the first two sources you bring Armenian POV, written by Armenians. Meanwhile, the latter two documents are outdated -- the newer documents from US Government, such as the 2001 NK History Background memo, say clearly that NK was a historic Azerbaijani region. As if we didn't know it ourselves -- show me at least one Armenian empire or independent state anywhere near Caucasus since the Tigranes the Great who was himself of Iranian origin? --adil 19:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- No, the CIA documents aren't outdated as historical affiliation doesn't change from one year to the next, and my sources are NOT Armenian POV, they are from reliable scholarly authorities on the matter... HyeProfile 01:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Karabakh has been part of Caucasian Albania and later Azerbaijani (Muslim) dynasties and empires
Some editors here now started to raise issues and claim that Karabakh could have been a "historic" Armenian region. I wonder how would that be possible when even the Father of Armenian history, a 5th century Movses Khorenatsi clearly showed (Book I, Ch. 4) borders of Caucasian Albania and Armenia? Not to mention native historian, Moisey Kalankatuyski (Movses Daxuranci), who did the same (see Book I, Ch 4; Book II, Ch 21), and it is clear how much of history of Caucasian Albania was interlinked with Karabakh (Utik + Artsakh). Here are two encylopedia's speaking, both extremely favorable to Armenians and Armenia, and in fact, in the case of the first, edited by an Armenian:
"In the first century A.D. the region now occupied by Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations developed in the third through fifth centuries, and Christianity began to spread. In the early eighth century the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. (Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population.) Artsakh was part of the Albanian kindgdom in the ninth and tenth centuries. In the mid-11th century it was invaded by the Seljuk Turks…. In the 1230's, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh."
(Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd edition, 1973, "NKAO, Historial Survey")
"[Karabakh was a] part of Caucasian Albania called Artsakh."
(The Columbia Encyclopedia, Fifth Edition. Copyright (c) 1993, Columbia University Press.)
The famous Russian historian of 19th century and beginning of 20th, V.L.Velichko, wrote: "Especially interesting is also the question of Caucasian Albania, or, in Armenian, Aghvank. This country, which incorporated contemporary Elizavetpol' Guberniia, as well as part of Tiflis [Guberniia] and Daghestan, was populated by nations of non-Armenian ancestry.... Until the beginning of XIX century a separate Aghvan or Gandzasar Catolicosat existed, which competed with the Echmiadzin [Armenian Catholicosat].... Currently, the Christians who were before of Aghvan Catholicosat, are considered Armenians, and after mixing with them [assimilating], adopted their character." (p. 66). Velichko later continues: "An exception were the inhabitants of Karabakh (Albania or Aghvania), incorrectly (in relation to history) called Armenians, who professed the Armenian-Gregorian faith, but were descendants of [Caucasian] Mountaneer and Turkic tribes, and who had gone through the process of Armenianization only three to four centuries earlier." (p.154)
V.L. Velichko, "Caucasus: Russian affairs and interethnic questions." St.Petersburg, 1904, pp. 66, 154. IN RUSSIAN: Vasilii L'vovich Velichko "Kavkaz. Russkoe delo i mezhduplemennie voprosi."
One of the most authoritative Armenian scholars, Ronald Grigor Suny described in his book "Looking Toward Ararat" (London, 1986, p.82) the borders of Arshakuni (Arsacid) Armenian kingdom (52 A.D.-428 A.D.), which was a Roman and Persian vassal, as reaching their most Northern point to the west of Gokchai (Sevan) lake whilst occupying only two thirds of present day Zangezur to the east.
Another Armenian author M. Belakian writes that mountaneous Karabakh was part of the Albania rather than Arshakuni Armenian kingdom until at least IV century A.D. (he also writes about Armenians constituting minority in Erevan until 19th century, and the inflow of Armenians during that time in the Caucasus).
Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia: A Legal Appraisal - Page 1, by Tim Potier - 2001 "Nagorno- Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania."
Even a very POV book by A. J. (Agop Jack) Hacikyan, Nourhan Ouzounian, Gabriel Basmajian, Edward S. Franchuk, writes: [2]: "Vache was the prince of Artsakh and Utik and is often referred to as the "King of Albanians" by Armenian chroniclers." (p. 363) I think this is more than enough to prove that POV contentions of some editors are meritless. Karabakh, or rather, Artsakh (and Utik) were historic provinces of Caucasian Albania, whilst Karabakh (the name since 1230s) is a historic region of Azerbaijan. --adil 06:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Also, on the "Armenian" meliks and in general, about the "historic" Armenian "gavar" of Karabakh (Utik and Artsakh), you all seem to forget one of the most famous Armenian patriotic writers, a very nationalistic, pro-Armenian author, who relied only on Armenian chroniclers for his research, Raffi and his "Melikdoms of Khamsa" [3]:
Меликства Хамсы — это пять небольших гаваров, которые, соседствуя друг с другом, образуют целую область, ныне называемую Карабах, а в нашей истории известную под именем Арцах, или Малый Сюник. В более отдаленные времена она являлась частью страны Агванк. (Translation: "In more remote times [Artsakh] was part of the country of Aghvank [Caucasian Albania]."
...
Эти края, которые, как я упомянул выше, когда-то являлись частью Агванского царства, впоследствии стали пристанищем армянских меликов.
...
II
1. Происхождение Мелик-Бегларянов, владетелей Голистана*.
Мелик-Бегларяны — коренные утийцы, из села Ниж. Какие обстоятельства принудили их оставить родину, перебраться в Карабах и поселиться в гаваре Гюлистан, — об этом история умалчивает. Известно только, что первый переселенец, которого тюрки называли «Кара-юзбаши» («Черный сотник»), а армяне — «Черный Абов», был человеком не простым:** на своей родине он имел состояние и правил народом.
...
3. Происхождение Хасан-Джалалянов, владетелей Хачена.
Из пяти господствовавших в Карабахе меликских домов лишь правители Хачена были местными жителями, а остальные, как мы видели и увидим далее, были переселенцами из других мест(4). Происхождение меликов Хачена следует считать очень древним, они потомки князей Хасан-Джалалянов. --adil 18:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Adil, your point that other nationalities have either occupied or ruled over NK or Karabakh at some point or another in history are pointless. Even all the sources you mention clearly show that Armenians have been the only omnipresent nation in the region throughout history. Please play your pipes elsewhere, your disruptions are not welcome...
- Furthermore, here are some other non-authoritive sources (non-Armenians & non-Azeris) who share the same views:
- http://web.pdx.edu/~kinsella/ps343/azerbaijan.pdf COLBY Trask & BARRICKLOW Alyssa, "The Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict" - Under the "Ethnic Ties" section, the authors clearly state that "Nagorno Karabakh is historically Armenian [...]". HyeProfile 19:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
That's laughable, I quote you Encyclopedia's and even Armenian scholars, whilst you bring me two no-names who are no experts and are just undergraduate students (juniors)[4], who wrote not a paper or article but a PowerPoint presentation (in PDF format)? If they are, as you acknowledge, non-authoritative, then what for do you bring them here? Don't lower the quality of the discussion, it's bad enough that various socks and meats have appeared here. --adil 19:50, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Pass the Kool-Aid this way Adil...--MarshallBagramyan 20:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- yet another example of a very smart comment from an undoubtedly highly-educated and intelligent person. Bravo. [loud applause] adil 20:35, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thats nice. Artaxiad 18:07, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Adil is absolutely right. Here's overview of the region's history from another third party source:
In the first century AD, the region that is today the territory of Nagorno-Karabakh was part of the province of Artsakh, which belonged to Caucasian Albania. Feudal relations and Christianity developed from the third through to the fifth centuries. In the early eighth century, the Arabs conquered Artsakh, as well as all of Albania, and Islam penetrated the area. Until that time Gregorianism had flourished among the Christian population. Artsakh was part of the Albanian kingdom during the ninth and tenth centuries, only to be invaded by the Seljuk Turks in the middle of the 11 th century. In the 1230s, Artsakh was conquered by the Mongols, and from that time most of its territory was called Karabakh. During the 17th century and the first half of the 18th century, Karabakh was the arena for continuous wars between Iran and Turkey. Panakh Ali-khan founded the Karabakh Khanate in the mid-18th century. To defend it, in the 1750s, he built the Panakhabad fortress (subsequently named Shusha, after a nearby village), which became the capital of the khanate. It was not until 1805 that the Russian Empire gained control over the Karabakh Khanate, from Persia. However, its new status was not to be confirmed until 1813 under the terms of the Treaty of Gulistan, when Persia formally ceded Karabakh to the Tsar, itself the culmination of the Russian-Iranian War of 1804-1813. In 1822, the Karabakh Khanate was abolished, after a few years of Russian tolerance towards its Muslim rulers, and a province, with a military administration, was formed.
Tim Potier. Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, Abkhazia, and South Ossetia : A Legal Appraisal. ISBN 9041114777
So I propose the following wording:
- The region that historically was part of Caucasian Albania and Karabakh khanate, became a source of dispute between the republics of Armenia and Azerbaijan when both countries gained independence from the Russian Empire in 1918.
I think it is more factually accurate and is better than the current version of intro. Grandmaster 04:06, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Golbez, the point that "you can't establish a region like NK" was mine, not GM's. GM's point was "it wasn't incorporated, so let's say it was established." I hope you are not going to start blaming me now for all those things GM did, mixing up me and him :)
And no, GM's version is unacceptable. Let's keep the principle "we don't know what the hell was going on there before 1918." --TigranTheGreat 04:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Hi Tigran. Do you have problems with the current version of the intro? Looks like we are going to spend another few months debating proposed changes. Grandmaster 04:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Intl. Status
So, is anyone else willing to support moving the International Status section to its own page? very similar to Constitutional status of Kosovo? Golbez seemed amenable to the idea when I proposed it so are there any objections to such a move?--MarshallBagramyan 05:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think that there is a need for that right now. Grandmaster 09:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Please elaborate. --Golbez 16:10, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't understand the advantages of that. Why there's a need to split it? Grandmaster 16:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Because the article becomes too long because of it....We're always going to be adding new information so long as negotiations continue between the two sides. The length it has warrants its own page. That's why the Kosovo page has one.--MarshallBagramyan 17:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I agreed, we should move it, this article is way too lengthy already... HyeProfile 15:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Why the table was removed again? It actually freed a lot of space, so space is not an issue, but I don't think that the info should be removed from the article, it should be improved instead. Even if you don't like the info, edit warring is not a solution. Grandmaster 09:53, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Because the text from the book didn't correspond with that of the table (Muslims, not Azeris; all of Karabakh not just NK, etc.). I'm not permanently removing that info, it can possibly come back. The table seems not to not fit too well in the article and that's why should just be converted into sentences that give a little background info. On the topic of the Intl. Status section, there's 3 block quotes this article has and all together, the section accounts for nearly 20% of the entire article. We should be focusing on things like the economy, geography or culture in the article rather than continuously update what happened two weeks ago in a peace conference in Paris, for example.
At most, we should just be discussing what are some of the significant propositions the sides have made and record any progress (or lack thereof) since 1994; otherwise, the article's name can just be changed to International Status of Nagorno-Karabakh since that is what it is focusing the most on (undue weight on a particular topic).--MarshallBagramyan 18:12, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
- Bagramyan, NK is not a country to have "International Status". Using the word "international" in regards to a disputed territory of one country (as its internationally recognized so) is simply unencyclopedic and unrealistic. There is no one, including Armenia itself, who recognizes NK as "international entity". So the title of your proposal would sound the same as discussing the "international status" of say, Texas or California. I think the discussion should rather concentrate on population table within this article and coming up with consensus. I think the consensus is possible with realization of some POV pushers that 30% of NK's population prior to ethnic cleansing in mid 1990s was Azerbaijani (not simply Muslim). Atabek 06:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- If Texas or California had a substantial separatist movement, with a declared capital, body of laws, foreign policy, ambassadors/missions, and de facto control of their territory, your comparison would be apt; as it is, it's a straw man. --Golbez 08:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Bagramyan, NK is not a country to have "International Status". Using the word "international" in regards to a disputed territory of one country (as its internationally recognized so) is simply unencyclopedic and unrealistic. There is no one, including Armenia itself, who recognizes NK as "international entity". So the title of your proposal would sound the same as discussing the "international status" of say, Texas or California. I think the discussion should rather concentrate on population table within this article and coming up with consensus. I think the consensus is possible with realization of some POV pushers that 30% of NK's population prior to ethnic cleansing in mid 1990s was Azerbaijani (not simply Muslim). Atabek 06:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Kosovo's not a country either yet its considered (nominally at least) a part of Serbia. They may not be similar in circumstance but your reasoning remains vague for why we should not move such a long section to its own page. Nagorno-Karabakh's Azeri population was roughly 23-24% Azeri (as opposed to its 73-76% Armenian population) with a handful of Kurds before the war but even still, "ethnic cleansing" (whatever its euphemistic meaning implies) occurred on both sides. Shahumyan used to have an Armenian majority, Sumgait used to have a population of 18,000 Armenians, Baku had a lot of Armenians, etc. I wouldn't put it past some users here who have nothing better to do but turn this into another conflict on nationalist lines.
Count me out if it does but I have became weary of hearing the word consensus on this page.--MarshallBagramyan 06:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- "some users here who have nothing better to do but turn this into another conflict on nationalist lines"? How about assuming good faith? Grandmaster 09:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is academic article and here issues should not be politicized. Unlike Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh does not have any international status. Kosovo is UN administered territory which accepted as such by the international community as a whole. NK is occupied territory by UN definition, or at least uncontrolled territory - the term used by some media and academic sources. It has no recognizition by any government, including Armenia. It has no international status whatsoever. And here we should not engage in OR or political debate. Attempt to draw parallel line with Kosovo is absolutely groundless and unsubstantiated for above-mentioned reasons.--Dacy69 22:36, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Peer review?
Marshall remarked how annoying it is to see 'consensus' bandied about here, and he has a point - consensus here will either be very difficult to obtain, or at its worse, used as a weapon to keep valid edits and points of view at bay.
[removed a bunch of brainstorming]
I had a few ideas as to how to reorganize the article but then realized, maybe we need outside help. I'm going to throw this article at Peer Review and see what sticks. Maybe having a fresh perspective on issues might help us clean it up. I really think this thing could be featured someday, the prose is good, the information is good, and it has an awesome division map, we just need to get past these sticking points. --Golbez 09:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I think the idea is good, but we probably need to inform the reviewers what is actually being disputed right now. I for one am not happy with the way Marshall deleted the demographics table instead of trying to improve. I know peer reviewers may come with ideas about improvement of the parts that are not disputed, but they may also help resolve the ongoing disputes. Also, I think Marshall needs to assume good faith with regard to other editors. Grandmaster 09:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I dunno, I kind of like the idea of throwing it at them sight unseen and see what they have to say about it, without any prior knowledge. The demographics table is a minor part of the article as far as peer review is concerned (it has no prose, it has no bearing on the article at large, yet it is important for the subject; but Peer Review doesn't need to know that) --Golbez 09:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I don't mind, let's see what they say. However I think the dispute with regard to that table that is constantly being deleted by a certain party should be resolved too. Grandmaster 09:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I dunno, I kind of like the idea of throwing it at them sight unseen and see what they have to say about it, without any prior knowledge. The demographics table is a minor part of the article as far as peer review is concerned (it has no prose, it has no bearing on the article at large, yet it is important for the subject; but Peer Review doesn't need to know that) --Golbez 09:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Golbez, although your argument that consensus can be "used as a weapon to keep valid edits and points of view at bay" is somewhat well-founded, I must point out that we cannot just put months of discussions aside and take a radically different approach at everything... If those months of discussions were fruitless, I'd agree with you, but since they did come to a conclusion (one which you may not like, but a conclusion nonetheless), we need to give value to past achievements and try to work towards improving the article... Your "exclamation" was clearly targeted at me but I won't take it in a negative way (we're past that, right Golbez). I've always assumed good faith and I'd be damned if anyone can prove that my input has been anything but constructive... Happy Easter/Passover BTW, talk about a well-timed break for all of us... HyeProfile 18:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- Er, I dunno what you mean about targeted, I simply saw Marshall's comment and brainstormed on that. It's not all about you. --Golbez 19:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
Golbez, is there a way to detach you from the maps :) --MarshallBagramyan 19:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- What, you want to get rid of me? :P --Golbez 19:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
- I reverted an edit by anon account, which added unverified atatement. Grandmaster 05:01, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Armenian side
As a non-Armenian (third party), I'd like to mention a few points that Armenia has. First, regarding the claim that the "Caucasian Albanian" area included Nagorno-Karabakh, it doesn't look like it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania
Second, Azerbaijan benefitted tremendously from The USSR's attempts to crush Armenian independence in 1923 by using the 'divide and conquer' strategy. Areas that had previously been a part of Armenia were reassigned arbitrarily to Azerbaijan. As the numbers show, Nagorno-Karabakh was 94% Armenian in 1923. The UN principles of 'self-determination of peoples' are definitely underminded here.
Third, I believe the idea of a contiguous state is a good one. Might I suggest that Armenia trade a southern corridor to Azerbaijan in exchange for Nagorno-Karabakh (with a link to Armenia). Currently SW Azerbaijan is not connected in any way to Azerbaijan. It would be helpful to everyone in the long run to not simply adhere to arbitrary lines drawn by a third-party conquering power, but set lines that are more in keeping with historic, cultural, and ethno-linguistic tradition.68.211.77.10 08:12, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- The article about Caucasian Albania does not say that Karabakh was not part of it. If you are referring to the map, its origin is unknown. I tried to find that out, but received no response. It should be deleted. The claim that "Areas that had previously been a part of Armenia were reassigned arbitrarily to Azerbaijan" are far from truth, Karabakh has never been part of the Republic of Armenia. As for the "set lines", they resulted in displacement of about 800 000 Azerbaijani people, who live as refugees in tents. I don't see how it is "more in keeping with historic, cultural, and ethno-linguistic tradition" Grandmaster 09:30, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster you are crazy if you think Artsakh was never part of Armenia, go back to playing your Dungeon Dragons or Runescape or whatever you play. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.192.171 (talk) 05:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- So far as I know, that plan has been put forth, and either rejected, or simply not yet accepted, by both sides. --Golbez 09:37, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
Local name of Nagorno-Karabakh
Altought South Ossetia and Abkhazia for instance are Georgian regions, the 'official' names of these regions in Wikipedia are written in local language. For consistency the 'official' name of the Nagorno-Karabakh self-proclamed Republic should be given in local language, ie Armenian: "Lernayin Gharabaghi Hanrapetutyun". Moreover, if the name is written in its Azerbaijani form 'Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikasi' that could imply that Azerbaijan is recognizing that a "Republic" exists there. A fair solution would be, as for Abkhazia, to write something like:"Lernayin Gharabaghi / Dağlıq Qarabağ" (C. Nüssli 16:04, 9 May 2007 (UTC))
This page is about region, not republic. Self-proclaimed republic is self-proclaimed and can call itself whatever it wants. --Dacy69 13:52, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- I think there's a point in that. Infobox should not refer to Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, it should refer to the region, as it has no recognition from Azerbaijan or anyone else. The infobox should only state the name of the region in 3 languages. Grandmaster 05:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Excellent idea. We can begin with the TRNC, Abkhazia and all the other such articles.--MarshallBagramyan 05:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Abkazia does just that, and TRNC is not a region, it is an entity, which has some recognition. Grandmaster 07:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Right; if the article were at "Northern Cyprus" then we'd have an issue. Also, yes, it's partially recognized. --Golbez 07:39, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Abkhazia has no less than 3 "territory/country" templates including one that refers to as a republic also. Partial would imply some other countries besides Turkey.--MarshallBagramyan 05:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Census table
Adding Karabakh census numbers to Nagorno-Karabakh article is the same thing as adding California census numbers to Southern California article. P.S. I loved the question marks, very encyclopedic. Vartanm 10:12, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- There was an agreement that the table was to remain. Both Golbez and Francis agreed to its inclusion. The table explains which territory the figures cover. Grandmaster 10:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Was that before or after Adil skewered the figures? Cornell states that asides from the 9% which made up the Armenians according to the census, 91% were labeled "Muslims". What the ethnic make up was of those Muslims is not written.--MarshallBagramyan 18:01, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- That's not the reason to delete the table. Grandmaster 05:27, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
That's not the only reason why it was.--MarshallBagramyan 05:56, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- What were the others? Grandmaster 06:11, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- See California example. Vartanm 09:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don’t think it is a good example. You had no problems with including figures for relocation of population by Shah Abbas that had nothing to do with Nakhichevan. I don’t see why we cannot do it here. Grandmaster 09:32, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I only included a sentence or two saying that Armenians were moved from the region. It wasn't me who turned that entire section into full-fledged paragraphs that wrote about random things. You're comparing apples and oranges; what was done on that article has no precedent for this one. --MarshallBagramyan 16:37, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- And please stop removing the table. I hope Golbez will look into this issue again. Thanks. Grandmaster 06:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
We're not children here to always ask someone to mediate our differences. The bottom line is that those census figures from the pre-WWI era only speaks about Muslims - not Azerbaijanis per se - and about Karabakh, not Nagorno-Karabakh. Even so, I prefer if figures are incorporated into text and to not use the census as the only gauge to measure demographics; obviously, its history dated before the Russians arrived.--MarshallBagramyan 21:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, I think the existence of the arbitration showed just that - the overwhelming tendency for POV editors on this suite of articles is toward childishness and a need for an adult with a cluestick. That said, I am out of town, and generally have no opinion on the census table; it is a complex matter that should not, however, be fought over in the article itself, and if this continues, I will protect the article on the Wrong Version. (that is to say, if I get home and see the edit war has continued, I will protect it on whatever version it's on, as I don't care.) I will rephase what I just said - I do have an opinion on all this, but it's not "pick one or the other", which is what is being pushed. --Golbez 02:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, the table presents valid and bipartisan information, which Bagramyan keeps removing simply for POV position. I think for the sake of fairness, the census table should stay and let other users discuss it before allowing someone to just boldly get rid of it by claiming: "I prefer if figures are incorporated into text". The "prefer" part must be discussed and agreed upon before just editing the disputed article. Atabek 05:21, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Again with your POV accusations? do you do anything else besides poison this atmosphere for the users? The table writes "Azeris" when in the source it says "Muslims". The table says census for "Karabakh" not "Nagorno-Karabakh".
I have expounded these points over and over to you guys yet you guys unabashedly add it back in and then accuse me of POV pushing. I have yet to see one reason as to why that table deserves to be there when you guys cannot even address the aforementioned points.--MarshallBagramyan 05:54, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- So what? Muslims were Azeris and Kurds, the latter living in Kelbajar and Lachin regions. Change Azeri to Muslim for that particular section. Remember, that initially Russians did not make any distinction among various Muslim people. And NK never existed as a separate region before 1923, so you will not be able to find any statistics for that part of Karabakh only, but that does not mean that we should delete the info on population of the region. Grandmaster 08:03, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
That is not the sole basis I am measuring this by. If we are treating Nagorno-Karabakh like a country article, then reference to statistics from 150 years ago, and even 50 years ago, seem mundane and unnecessary in the grander scheme of things. I couldn't think of any better place to put those statistics than under history of the region under Russian rule. Country articles like the recent FA, Japan, or Germany or France do not make much mention of what their historic demographics once were.
- The demographic history of Japan and Germany and France are not terribly relevant to those areas, though, having been generally undisputed and mostly homogenous. For an article like, say...Iraq? With its three major groups? Then it would possibly be relevant. --Golbez 21:05, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, Lebanon seems like a good example too considering the mix of its ethnic communities; others include the powderkegs Serbia and Kosovo and the rest of the former Yugoslavia such as Albania an Macedonia - all of which boast similar diverse ethnic communities.--MarshallBagramyan 22:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikası
Grandmaster Wikipedia is not the place to push Azerbaijani government views. Vartanm 06:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't about the Azeri government's view, please calm the rhetoric, though I would agree GM's edit summary may have been a little off. The thing is, by putting "Republic" in Azeri, we are implying that is the official name within N-K; it is not, because Azeri is not the official language. And no nation that uses Azeri calls the region by that. So either you have to remove the Azeri altogether - which would be unacceptable, POV-wise - or remove all mentions of "Republic". South Ossetia does it that way; Transnistria doesn't, but it has three official languages, so it's less an issue. I think I agree with the new guy, we should remove "Republic" from the infobox header. There's no harm in doing that, and it removes the possible POV issues. --Golbez 07:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Golbez. To include the name "Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikası" you should demonstrate that it is officially used, and you cannot delete the Azeri name, because the region is officially part of Azerbaijan and had significant Azeri population. Grandmaster 07:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't speak Azeri, but looks like its being used by Azeri government. [5], [6]. Who said I wanted to delete the Azeri name? --Vartanm 09:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- No, its not. In the first source the name “Nagorno-Karabakh Republic” used in the section that describes position of Armenia, the second condemns illegal elections in “so-called Nagorno-Karabakh Republic”. You can add “so-called Nagorno-Karabakh Republic”, it is the only context this name is used in Azeri. Grandmaster 09:30, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Vartan, NK "Republic" does not exist as far as Azerbaijan and the rest of international community, excluding Armenia, is concerned. So there is no reason to reflect POV of a single side, and especially doing so in Azeri language, which you do not speak. Atabek 11:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't speak Azeri, but looks like its being used by Azeri government. [5], [6]. Who said I wanted to delete the Azeri name? --Vartanm 09:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Golbez. To include the name "Dağlıq Qarabağ Respublikası" you should demonstrate that it is officially used, and you cannot delete the Azeri name, because the region is officially part of Azerbaijan and had significant Azeri population. Grandmaster 07:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Can the biased folks (yes, you know who you all are) not make edits like that? Leave it to the mediators like me, or we'll just end up in a revert war. That's why I went to the talk page first. I support this edit, but it probably wasn't your place to make it. --Golbez 11:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I was following the rule of explaining my edit on the talk page and then making it. But since you took on the task of mediation, will leave the edits to you. Now, I have a problem with another statement here, which is untrue and wasn't referenced: "...referendum held in the NKAO and the neighboring district of Shahumian..." . There was no referendum in Shahumian district, it was never part of NKAO in first place, and was firmly under the control of Azerbaijan SSR in 1991. There were only two Armenian-populated villages in that whole district. Atabek 13:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Quoting from the declaration of independence: "With the participation of delegates from all levels of councils in a joint session of peoples deputies of the Nagomo Karabakh (NK) regional and Shahumian district councils, by the expression of the popular will supported by a documented referendum, and by the decision taken by the authorities of the NK autonomous region and the Shahimian district between 1988-91 concerning its freedom, independence, equal rights, and neighborly relations". The burden is now on you to show that the referendum did not exist in Shahumian. --Golbez 17:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, the so called "declaration of independence" of the unrecognized and illegitimate entity like "NKR" can claim whatever it likes, this does not establish neither legal basis nor ground truth. The fact is Shahumian was not part of NKAO, it is and was largely populated by Azerbaijanis and never controlled by the occupation forces of the Republic of Armenia (or in Armenian lingo called "NK Self-Defense Forces"). So to make this claim encyclopedic and reassert it as a fact, there needs to be some form of impartial evidence with census figures for the region, and unfortunately, any attempt to add any form of the regional census table is being prevented now for the reasons of hiding the ground truth. Atabek 07:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- We know Shahumian was not part of NKAO, and it was largely populated by Azeris, and it was never controlled by Armenians. However, the Karabakhis (is that the proper term?) claim that it held a successful referendum for independence and merger with the NKR. Can you find any fact beyond 'common sense' that proves this wrong? --Golbez 17:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, the so called "declaration of independence" of the unrecognized and illegitimate entity like "NKR" can claim whatever it likes, this does not establish neither legal basis nor ground truth. The fact is Shahumian was not part of NKAO, it is and was largely populated by Azerbaijanis and never controlled by the occupation forces of the Republic of Armenia (or in Armenian lingo called "NK Self-Defense Forces"). So to make this claim encyclopedic and reassert it as a fact, there needs to be some form of impartial evidence with census figures for the region, and unfortunately, any attempt to add any form of the regional census table is being prevented now for the reasons of hiding the ground truth. Atabek 07:56, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, since this is an encyclopedic article, evidence of referendum held in Shaumyan district in the form voting bulletins and third-party (non-Armenian) observer conclusions and opinions must be present. Pending such evidence, I cannot see how holding referendum can be claimed as a fact in encyclopedia just based on the claim of separatists not recognized by anyone. And this is given the fact that majority of Shaumyan district was Azerbaijani-populated. Atabek 10:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Of course the majority was Azerbaijani. After Operation Ring, there weren't any Armenians left to comprise a formidable entity after they were deported.--MarshallBagramyan 16:28, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- We are discussing proofs of referendum and validity of such if it was held in Shaumyan district. The Armenian propaganda, attempting to hide the fact of occupation of NK and 7 surrounding districts of Azerbaijan, deportation and ethnic cleansing of close to 800,000 inhabitants of occupied districts, while inventing some "Operation Ring" in the district which was majorly Azeri-populated, is absolutely irrelevant to the subject of whether or not referendum was held in Shaumyan. Atabek 10:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
What bollocks. Inventing "Operation Ring"? The MVD and OMON systematically threw out thousands of Armenians from at least 16 villages under the pretext of a passport-regime and supplanted them with Azeris . Operation Ring was widely reported and condemned in both the Western and Soviet media before the Soviet Union even broke up; where do you come up with all this nonsense?--MarshallBagramyan 21:19, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- My problem with the edit was that Armenian and English languages said it was a republic and Azeri wasn't. I have no problem if all 3 say the same thing. And Atabek judging by your edit on the Armenian sentence I see that you don't speak Armenian, so were even. Vartanm 16:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
So is it a matter of a template issue? The region of Nagorno-Karabakh does not have such a flag or such a capital whereas the unrecognized de facto independent Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh. What precedent or guideline are we precisely following on?--MarshallBagramyan 05:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- "Nagorno-Karabakh is a de facto independent republic" thats the first sentence of the article. NK has what any other functioning democratic government has. President, parliament, constitution and army. Vartanm 17:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- Since the article is on the region, it should have the names of it in 3 languages. As for flag and stuff, the writing under them should explain who they belong to. Grandmaster 06:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Congratulations
No edit war! Sure, it was semi-protected, but that wouldn't stop any of y'all from editing. I'm happy! --Golbez 17:42, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Nagorno-Karabakh Coat of Arms.png
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PACE
I restored the original version of PACE quote as per my discussion with Francis on Khojaly massacre talk. Grandmaster 16:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Suggestion for making article more readable
I suggest spinning off parts of the article to other new articles and putting links in this article as it is getting to long. The best candidate IMHO is the international status section. There are some good stuff in it but it is getting long and will only get longer so spin it off into a separate article and beef it up in that article and put a summary and link in this article. Pocopocopocopoco 03:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Transliteration in infobox
Please add a transliteration of the Armenian name. Very few readers can read this alphabet. Valentinian T / C 12:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
International Status Recognition
I think it would be appropriate to add that Azerbaijan is reluctant to recognize Turkish occupied Cyprus (aka trnc) because they are afraid if they do, the government of Cyprus will be the first country to recognize Nagorno-Karabakh as an independent state.--Waterfall999 11:02, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Find a citation and I'll put that in, I know that's the case but I don't recall seeing it officially mentioned anywhere. --Golbez 13:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Why would Azerbaijan wish to recognize TRNC and establish a dangerous precedent? I don't think Azerbaijan has ever seriously considered such an action, it would harm its interests. Grandmaster 17:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Nachichevan certainly has. It would be seen as Turkic unity, I suppose.--Golbez 23:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Listen Golbez, Nakhchivan, Karabakh, Absheron and all are Azerbaijani regions and there has never been a fight over Nakhcivan, they are part of Azerbaijan and they don't even question it. You should not study one-side of the story only. --12insan 17:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12insan (talk • contribs) 17:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Before you talk down to me ("Listen Golbez"), please try to understand what I wrote. I never said there was a fight over Nakhichevan - I said Nakhichevan recognized the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. --Golbez 21:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Listen Golbez, Nakhchivan, Karabakh, Absheron and all are Azerbaijani regions and there has never been a fight over Nakhcivan, they are part of Azerbaijan and they don't even question it. You should not study one-side of the story only. --12insan 17:58, 3 October 2007 (UTC)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 12insan (talk • contribs) 17:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Nachichevan certainly has. It would be seen as Turkic unity, I suppose.--Golbez 23:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Why would Azerbaijan wish to recognize TRNC and establish a dangerous precedent? I don't think Azerbaijan has ever seriously considered such an action, it would harm its interests. Grandmaster 17:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Removing Stalin's pic
I'm all for keeping the information that is written under Stalin's picture but can we at least grace this article with some other picture that has something to do with Nagorno-Karabakh? Plus, we have to have an intervention and stop Golbez one and for all from adding any more maps on to this article :) --Marshal Bagramyan 20:19, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- er? I added one. Well over a year ago. :P --Golbez 20:21, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- There are three maps. One is made by me, the other is made by someone else based on a map I made, and the third is just that city one further down. Don't blame me! :P --Golbez 08:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
What would be your thoughts on adding something to the article to the effect that the initial Karabakh movement in Armenia was irredentist but the claim by Azerbaijan to reintegrate Nagorno Karabakh is also irredentist? Pocopocopocopoco 19:13, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
Khojaly Massacre
I just removed some comments because this section was quickly spiraling out of control. The matter is resolved, the link is in the footer template where, so far as I can tell, it always belonged. If anyone disagrees, please bring it up, without accusing the nationality-not-yours of killing people, thanks. --Golbez 12:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Yelena Alikhanyan Bonner
She was Armenian, and also took one side of the Karabakh conflict. So this reference, especially about history, is simply non-neutral and should not be on this page. Otherwise, we should also use references from Azerbaijani historians on this page, including Bunyadov, Mamedova, I. Aliyev, etc. Atabek 11:56, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- She was not Armenian, and never used Alikhanyan as her lastnme. She had an Armenian step-father. If we follow this logic then Steve Jobs is also Armenian (he isn't). VartanM 18:26, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Vartan, Please try to be more serious, Steve is of Caucasian Albanian descent [citation needed]. ;)Hetoum I 04:43, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Hetoum, I inserted a fact tag to your claim. Please provide a third party source to support your claim. Just don't go overboard, one source will do just fine. ;) --VartanM 06:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
How come, according to our Azeri co-editors, all ancient Armenian kings are Persian, Parthian, Albanian, but never Armenian? And yet, Yelena Bonner is suddeny fully and purely Armenian? --TigranTheGreat 01:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Is she an ancient Armenian queen? :) But seriously, her maiden surname was Alikhanian, I don't think anyone can deny this fact. And she is extermely pro-Armenian biased in NK issue. Grandmaster 05:02, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Also, see de Waal, he says that Sakharov was pro-Armenian because of his wife’s influence:
- Sakharov's pro-Armenian stance was shaped by his Armenian wife. Yelena Bonner's parents – whose surname was Alikhanian – were Armenians from Shusha who had been driven from the town in 1920. This family memory obviously made a deep impression, yet as Sakharov and Bonner heard both sides of the issue, they amended their positions somewhat.
- Thomas de Waal. Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War, p 66.
- Grandmaster 09:54, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Grandmaster, is the quotation you marked from here http://www.azeri.ru/Anons/bbc_karabakh/blackgarden.htm ? Is it a reliable and neutral source supported by Azerbaijani community portal? Andranikpasha 13:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the one, a neutral source, written by a British journalist, who travelled to the both sides of the conflict. Grandmaster 16:57, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
De Waal is pro-Azeri, which is obvious if you read his work--the Armenian side is systematically demonized. Plus, De Waal is inaccurate, which makes him unreliable--neither of her parents were Armenian--Bonner's mother, Ruth Bonner, was Jewish (which is all that matters if one is a Jew). Only her stepfather was Armenian, and an Armenian Communist at that, which is worse than an Azeri (from an Armenian point of view, not that Azeris are inherently bad). Check this Jewish Encyclopedia: http://www.eleven.co.il/article/10703. In sum, she is Jewish, fully and completely.
Ironically, had she been an ancient Armenian queen, our Azeri friends here would have insisted that she was non-Armenian. (And I am not saying you guys are doing it in bad faith--I am sure you fully believe you are improving the quality of Wikipedia while disrupting Armenian articles. I am merely making an observation on a well established pattern of edits).--TigranTheGreat 02:03, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Bad faith assumption of the worst kind. No one "disrupts" Armenian articles by mentioning Parthian origin of some of the Armenian kings. I don't understand why Tigran has problems with mentioning this fact, it is nothing unusual for the region, not only Armenian, but also Albanian and Georgian kings were of Parthian origin, since the region was dominated by Parthia for many centuries. I don't know how this is related to Bonner/Alikhanian, and de Waal does not make a mistake by saying that her parents were Armenian. No one can deny Mr.Alikhanian's ethnic origin, no matter if he was her actual or step dad, commy or not. And she was and still is extremely anti-Azeri and pro-Armenian, and thus not a reliable source. De Waal, on the other hand, is a third party source without any connection to the sides of the conflict. Grandmaster 05:11, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
"without any connection to the sides of the conflict": - see below! Is this a connection or no (http://www.azeri.ru/Anons/bbc_karabakh/blackgarden.htm) ? His book were announced-advertised and represented by the Azeri community portal.Andranikpasha 07:45, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- So what? Grandmaster 07:48, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It is a direct connection and support by a side of the conflict, isnt it? Andranikpasha 08:08, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- No, it's not. It is just an announcement of a new book about the conflict. Grandmaster 09:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Just a promotion... it seems to be very neutral source if an extremely pro-Azeri portal supports it. Also about de Vaal's professional "neutrality": Teymuraz Deniev (http://www.genshtab.chechnya.ru/) calls him an "expert-businessman" who is "making money on blood". He write that in 2003 this person meet the people reffered with famous extremist Ahmed Zakayev and received financial support for a pro-extremist talk in the court as a researcher on Caucasus. Deniev calls de Vaal a "Western and Chechenian agent".[1] Andranikpasha 13:23, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
His-pro western oil company/azeri goverment stance is rather clear. While he attempts to hide under auspecies of a neutral "western" journalist, he is nothing more than a paid propagandist who tries cry neutrality by equaling the Armenian Genocide to some non-existent azeri "genocides". Stupid Armenians are happy he uses the "g" word, and we see were Azerbaijain Tartars get satisfied.Hetoum I 03:46, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- And who is this Deniyev who accuses the British journalist of being a "western spy"? How can anyone take seriously such allegations, especially considering that Deniyev provides no proof of him being an agent of the Western countries? Looks pretty much like old Soviet rhetoric, only the word "imperialism" is not used. Grandmaster 06:32, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
De Waal is a modern British linguist and journalist who "discovered" how many people were killed during the Shushi Massacres in 1920 without even asking any sources, despite a journalist need to be more careful to the historiographical facts. Deniev marks some incedents and asks de Waal is an agent (its Deniev's opinion about a living person, he has rights to represent it and he is fully responsible for it!). If Deniev lies than De Waal have all rights to ask for a trial considering Deniev's words as a personal harrasment, falsification etc. Than this material may be closed etc. Andranikpasha 11:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- If you read de Waal, he cites his sources, and Hovanissian provides the same figure. I don't think de Waal is even aware of existence of Deniyev somewhere on chechnya.ru, and accusations of NGO's being agents of USA and "The West" are ridiculous. The source of criticism is not reliable, because it is clearly an attempt to get back at de Waal for his book about Chechnya. But it really has nothing to do with this particular article. De Waal's book on NK received only positive reviews from authoritative third party reviewers. Grandmaster 11:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I read the Russian one, he never cites any sources for the number of killed inhabitants of Shushi. And Hovanissian is unreliable as you marked many times: I cant understand why all the time you cite him? If to cite Hovanissian, lets then cite "The Armenian question" encyclopedia by EditBoard of Armenian Encyclopedia, mostly recognized source, etc.etc.. Deniev marks not the book about Chechnia but de Waals co-operation (as he says) with Zakaev during his trial.
"De Waal's book on NK received only positive reviews from authoritative third party reviewers"- It never makes him a neutral person and non his journalistic work- a historiographical research...Andranikpasha 14:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- So, basically who disagrees with Dashnaksutyun ideology is not neutral, huh?--12insan 18:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Article Is Misleading
Nagorno Karabakh is a region, however the article does not seem to focus on Nagorno Karabakh region but on de-facto "NKR". For example, flag and map with Armenian names should not be included in an informational article about a region of another country. Since so-called "NKR" is not recognized by any country, the map should say Xankendi instead of Stepenakert, because that is what world map says. If anyone wants to describe de facto "NKR", then that person should either create another article with that title or describe it under a subheading. But this article is MISLEADING, if not manipulative. Also, information with biased sources (from both sides) should be deleted or the citation should be changed to a neutral third-party sources. Again this text is supposed to be informative article about Nagorno Karabakh, not political propganda. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and has no place for any political propoganda. If the poposed changes are objected to without any reasonable explanation, we will ask Wikipedia to delete it completely if it wants to keep its credibility and impartiality. Thank you— Preceding unsigned comment added by 12insan (talk • contribs)
- It's been discussed from time to time whether or not the article should be split between region and self-proclaimed republic; as of yet, we haven't really come to a conclusion, so it remained at the status quo. As for Khankendi instead of Stepanakert, that has less to do with the recognition of the region and what the city's own residents call it; this is a rare situation but for now I think we're going with that, especially since it's the capital of a self-proclaimed country - and like it or not, we have to respect that in some fashion, especially since the Armenians have de facto rule over the area. However, that's more of a question to bring up on Talk:Stepanakert rather than here.
- The biased sources are necessary to show both sides of the conflict, so long as our own prose remains neutral, and I'm confident it is. The article will not be removed, and our credibility and impartiality are intact - so instead of making demands that are impossible to fulfill, like deleting the article completely, I welcome you to it, and ask you to make specific suggestions on where to go from here. I suppose this is as good a time as any to reopen the discussion on whether or not the article should be split. There's precedent both ways - Chechnya and Chechen Republic of Ichkeria are separate, but Abkhazia and South Ossetia combine the two notions into one article. Personally, I'm somewhat happy with how this article is, as it's the work of several years of collaboration from Azeri, Armenian, and neutral users. So instead of making blanket accusations of us being a place for "Armenian political propaganda", please familiarize yourself with the previous discussions that have taken place, and make specific suggestions on what to do with the article. For example, how is it misleading? It's a fact that the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic is unrecognized and has de facto control over its territory; this much is not in dispute. So please, point out false or misleading statements in the article, and we will correct them if they are in fact false or misleading. As for myself? I'm American, with absolutely no connection to the Caucasus, and have been accused by both sides of being a patsy for the enemy. Which I think makes me rather neutral in this. --Golbez 08:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, thanks for replying. I apologize for posting the article right on the top of the page, I didn't know I was supposed to post to the bottom. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the discussion about splitting the article. Could you please show me where it is? It is important to know why the answer was "no". In addition, this way we won't discuss the same thing over and over again.
- Also, note that I am going to reply your question and explain why I think article is misleading in a couple of days (I am kind of busy these days). If the discussion is in archive I'll post it again, so we can discuss everything clearly. Thank you.--12insan 19:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't say the answer was no; I said we came to no conclusion at all. The discussion kind of faded away. And please be sure to read the full context of comments before you respond to them attacking someone for something they didn't even say, as demonstrated above. --Golbez 21:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Talk:Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive9#Shahumian.2C_split.3F is the best example I can find of a discussion on the split, so it probably should be brought up again. --Golbez 21:13, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, I obviously didn't read what you wrote carefully. But how exactly did I attack you????? The discussion you showed doesn't exactly discuss what I was talking about. I don't think we should "chat" here, so, I am going to bring this subject up later.--12insan 02:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- The section I linked discusses - marginally - splitting the article into two articles, one about the republic, one about the region. the discussion never really went anywhere. It's happened a handful of times before but with the same outcome. --Golbez 03:11, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Splitting again
Time to resurrect this old argument, because if I recall correctly, we never really come to any conclusion, it just fades to black. So:
- Should there be two articles, one for the Republic, one for the Region?
- Should there be THREE articles, adding one for the NKAO, since that was a notable period in history, the last time it had official, concrete borders?
- Should there be two articles, one of the region/republic (as the article is now) plus one for the NKAO?
- Or, should there only be one article, this one, handling the aspects of all three? This is the current situation.
Personally, I've tended to support option #3 but I see the utility in option #2. #4 is how things currently are. Comments? This is not a vote, this is simply a request for comment. --Golbez 22:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think third choice is much better, since this way articles will be realistic, informational, and encyclopedic. But I think everyone should analyze previous discussions and clearly explain their arguments instead of just saying "I want this and that". So, I am going to give my suggestions later ( Sorry for the delay, but I want to learn Wikipedia's rules and look through previous discussions before suggesting anything, however for now I find choice 1 or 3 more appropriate and reasonable). --12insan 07:41, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstood #3; #3 would be the same as it is now, with an additional article for the autonomous oblast. Earlier, you were advocating splitting the article into one about the republic and one about the region. --Golbez 13:08, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
- There is already a Nagorno_Karabakh_Autonomous_Oblast I would support option #2 so 3 articles. The reason for this is that the NKR isn't the same area as the region. If I remember correctly, the census that they do includes people that live in what they call Kashatagh (I believe incorrectly redirected to Lachin(rayon) in wikipedia) and if I remember correctly, Kashatagh includes the Lachin, Kalbajar, Zangilan rayons. Also, the basis for negotiation seems to be that the Lachin corridor would remain with the NKR. Also the NKR claims Shahumian which is now part of the Goranboy rayon and this is also not part of the Nagorno Karabakh region. I think it also makes sense as whenever someone wants to refer to the republic they can refer to the republic article and when they want to refer to the region they can refer to the region article. We can make this similar to how there is an Abkhazia article and an Government of the Republic of Abkhazia and a Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia. I also think that if the NKR were to ever be resubjugated by Azerbaijan or annexed by Armenia, the article could remain as a historical de-facto republic similar to the Republic of Serbian Krajina. I also think it might be worthwhile to have a fourth article on the international status of the NKR similar to the Status of Kosovo. - Pocopocopocopoco 15:34, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Article should be splitted
- The thing is that thousands of people read this article and it is perhaps one of the most controversial articles in Wikipedia. NK has created a huge tension between Azerbaijanis and Armenians, therefore maintaining neutrality and respect to each side is very important.
- I suggest that this article be split to “Nagorno Karabakh”, “NK Republic”, and “NKAO” (which already exists). Also in every article two subsections called “Armenian Perspective” and “Azerbaijani Perspective” should be created and statements reflecting perspectives included there. This way readers of the article will not confuse facts and interpretations and both sides’ never-ending editing and arguing in discussions will slow down.
- Now, I think everybody agrees that neither Azerbaijanis or Armenians enjoy arguing and changing passages all the time (this also damages Wikipedia’s image, because information is not reliable). I also think everybody agrees that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a political arena or a newspaper editorial section. And people who read any article in an encyclopedia should not be forced to identify and analyze facts and interpretations in an informational article; they wouldn’t need an encyclopedia in the first place then. That’s why informational and perspective-reflecting statements should be kept separate and presented in a way that a readers knows whether it is a pure fact or just a perspective. That’s why source of information and relevance of any passage must be pondered. Of course, if a factual and agreed upon information is taken from a biased source, there is nothing wrong with that, but highly disputable information should either be cited from a totally disinterested, unbiased, and neutral source OR deleted and not shown at all OR shown under “Armenian Perspective”/ “Azerbaijani Perspective” section. This is peaceful.
- What is particularly misleading about this article? Well, the question is what is NK. A region in Azerbaijan or name of a de-facto republic? This article doesn’t seem to make any difference and is misleading. It is like naming an article America and describing the USA; well America is the continent’s name. Whole world thinks NK is part of Azerbaijan, and world map shows it as a part of Azerbaijan. What is point of ignoring whole world, presenting “NKR” as a main subject and displaying its flag, using Armenian names but not the names used in world map and etc. in an article which is about a part of Azerbaijan? ([7] CIA factbook map) If one wants to describe “NKR” then he or she should create another article named “NKR” and describe it there. In addition, the flag should be included in an article called “NKR” not “NK”. If there should be a flag, that should be Azerbaijani flag. Again, what is NK? A region in Azerbaijan or the name of a de-facto republic? The same thing is true about names in maps. This is why the article is misleading and confusing. A reader interested in NK sees “NKR” flag and all and can hardly understand what is the article is about (Collected Quotations, part 1, part 2, part 3, psrt 4)
- Below are statements I disagree with. Usually problems are Biased Source, No Source, Armenian Perspective (mixed with facts), Manipulative, Far from truth.
- “On December 10, 1991, as the Soviet Union was collapsing, a referendum held in the NKAO and the neighboring district of Shahumian resulted in a declaration of independence from Azerbaijan as the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (NKR),…” ----1.Armenian Perspective. This statement reflects Armenian POV, Azerbaijanis didn’t even know referendum existed, let alone participating. 2. No source. I understand that I don’t have source to prove that Azerbaijanis didn’t participate in this “referendum”, but Armenians have no proof either. The statement should either put in a subheading called “Armenian Perspective” or deleted.
- “It is often referred to by the Armenians living in the area as Artsakh (Armenian: Արցախ; Russian: Арцах), designating the 10th province of the ancient Kingdom of Armenia and a province of the Kingdom of Aghvank ("Caucasian Albania").” ----1. Armenian perspective. Azerbaijani historians would state that Artsakh was not an Armenian land or anything. Now, which POV is right? It is not possible to discuss it here, the statement’s adequacy is questionable and highly disputable. Putting this kind of controversial statement in an encyclopedic article without informing readers whose perspective it is from is far from NPOV (neutral point of view).
- “The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic has six divisions within it, which correspond with the five districts of the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast (NKAO), and with the Shahumyan rayon of the Azerbaijan SSR” ---- 1.Armenian Perspective. What is The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic, why not written inside quotation marks? Are you recognizing it while ignoring the rest of the world? 2. Armenian perspective. The name of the rayon is not Shamuyan. Why use this name instead of name used before and after all this dispute (khanates/Republic of Azerbaijan)?? This action is far from NPOV.
- “A comparative table of the current divisions of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic and the corresponding rayons of Azerbaijan follows”----Same as (3).
- “Representatives from Shahumian declared independence along with Nagorno-Karabakh, and the proclamation of the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic includes the Shahumian region within its borders.[1”----1. Armenian perspective. 2. Very disputable. Who were “representatives of Shahumian”?? 3. Biased Source. Why are you using biased and interested Armenian source (www.nkr.am) ?? Inserting this kind of statement without any warning of POV is wrong.
- “The territory of modern Nagorno-Karabakh forms a portion of the historic region of Karabakh, which lies between the rivers Kura, Araxes, and the modern Armenia-Azerbaijan border. In the ancient and medieval times, this larger region consisted of the historic provinces of Artsakh and Utik, which at various times alternated between the kingdoms of Armenia and Caucasian Albania” ----1. Armenian perspective. Again Azerbaijani historians would definitely disagree. The very same kind of statements increased tensions between countries. How acceptable is it to include this statement to this article? 2. Manipulative. Note that again nothing relating Karabakh khanate is mentioned.
- “The region of Nagorno-Karabakh falls within the lands occupied by peoples known to modern archaeologists as the Kura-Araxes culture, who lived between the two rivers bearing those names. Little is known of the ancient history of the region, primarily because of the scarcity of historical sources. At various times in antiquity that are difficult to establish with precision at this time, this area was part of Aghbania, or Caucasian Albania, and at others, of Kingdom of Armenia Armenians have lived in the Karabakh region since Roman times. In the early Middle Ages the native Albanian population of upper Karabakh merged into the Armenian population, and after 1300 Islamic Turks moved into the steppes of lower Karabakh. [14]”----Same as (5) and (6).
- “In the post-Soviet power vacuum, military action between Azerbaijan and Armenia was heavily influenced by the Russian military. Furthermore, both Armenian and Azerbajani military employed a large number of mercenaries from Ukraine and Russia.[32] As many as one thousand Afghan mojahedeens participated in the fighting.[33] Also there were fighters from Chechnya fighting on the side of Azerbaijan.[34][35]”----1. Biased source. Ermeni.org is not neutral or disinterested at all. Although the domain name is Azerbaijani (“ermeni”) it is created by nationalist Armenians.
- “At that stage the Government of Azerbaijan for the first time during the entire duration of the conflict recognised Nagorno-Karabakh as a third party of the war and started direct negotiations with the Karabakhi authorities.[citation needed]”----- 1. Far from truth. Azerbaijan has never recognized “NKR” as third party. This statement has no place in an encyclopedic article 2. There is no source. Putting [citation needed] doesn’t make it truthful.
- A quotation “Armenians feared that in Karabakh, Armenians would one day be a minority as they were in Nakhichevan, another lost part of historic Armenia ... yet now part of Azerbaijan[36]” ----1. Armenian Perspective. Nakchivan has never been part of Armenia and whoever used this quotation obviously has no knowledge of Caucasian history. And writing “Armenians feared that…blah blah” is irrelevant. If one insists to use this statement as argument, then he or she should include in a subheading named “Armenian Perspective”. The whole statement defends Armenian perspective instead of giving information as expected in an encyclopedia.
- (CURRENT SITUATION) “In his case study of Eurasia, Dov Lynch of the Institute for Security Studies of WEU believes that "Karabakh's independence allows the new Armenian state to avoid the international stigma of aggression, despite the fact that Armenian troops fought in the war between 1991-94 and continue to man the Line of Contact between Karabakh and Azerbaijan." Lynch also cites that the "strength of the Armenian armed forces, and Armenia's strategic alliance with Russia, are seen as key shields protecting the Karabakh state by the authorities in Stepanakert."[38]”---Same as (10). This statement has no place in an encyclopedic article. If one insists using it then please put it under “Armenian Perspective” subheading.
- “Representatives of Armenia, Azerbaijan, France, Russia and the United States met in Paris and in Key West, Florida, in the Spring of 2001.[39] The details of the talks have remained largely secret, but the parties are reported to have discussed non-hierarchical relationships between the central Azerbaijani government and the Karabakh Armenian authorities.[citation needed Despite rumours that the parties were close to a solution, the Azerbaijani authorities — both during Heydar Aliyev's period of office, and after the accession of his son Ilham Aliyev in the October 2003 elections — have firmly denied that any agreement was reached in Paris or Key West.”— ]”----Same as (5), (6), (9), (10), and (11). 1.Purely Armenian perspective. It sounds like an Armenian newspaper editorial more than an informational article. This is totally unacceptable. 2. Putting [citation needed] doesn’t make it any right. You can’t just rely on someone who has received information from someone who in turn sets forth his or her arguments based on a rumor. I can just say that “the rumor is that Armenians and Armenian president wants to withdraw troops from NK but Armenian Diaspora won’t let it.” Is it rational now? 3. The last sentence has not citation. Rumors have no place in an encyclopedic article.
- “The major disagreement between both sides at the Bucharest conference was the status of Karabakh. Azerbaijan's position was a promise to give Karabakh the "highest status of autonomy adopted in the world."[45]”----1. Armenian perspective. 2. Far from truth and very disputable. 3. Biased source. Regnum.ru is pro-Armenian news agency and usually has this kind of “information” that no one else does. Regnum is not partial or disinterested at all.
- “Armenia favored a popular vote by the inhabitants of Karabakh to decide their future, a position that was also taken by the international mediators.[46]” –1. Far from truth. “A position that was also taken by international mediators” is not true and manipulative. International mediators have not taken that kind of position. And obviously only armenianliberty.org that has that “information”. 3. Biased source. Armenianliberty.org is ultra-nationalist and impartial. 4. Armenian perspective.
- “On June 27, the Armenian foreign minister said both parties agreed to allow the residents of Karabakh to vote regarding the future status of the region.[47]” ----Same as (14) far from truth and armenianliberty.org is not reliable in this particular issue. Azerbaijan will never think of referendum until IDP’s go back to their home. That would be stupid. It is like banishing republicans and then electing the president.
- “According to Azeri opposition leader Isa Gambar, however, Azerbaijan did indeed agree to the referendum. Still, nothing official has confirmed this yet.[49]”---1. Armenian perspective. Isa Gambar uses this kind of speech in order to defame government (he runs for the presidency for last 8 years). Besides, if officials have not confirmed it why use it as an argument here. The statement doesn’t prove that Azerbaijan has consented referendum, it says Isa Gambar says so. This can be put under subheading called “Armenian perspective”. This way readers will analyze the fact themselves.
- (INTERNATIONAL STATUS) “According to an analysis by New England School of Law's Center for International Law & Policy, as well as Public International Law & Policy Group (PILPG), "Nagorno Karabagh has a right of self-determination, including the attendant right to independence, according to the criteria recognized under international law ... The principle of self-determination is included in the United Nations Charter, [and] was further codified in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights ... The right to self-determination has also been repeatedly recognized in a series of resolutions adopted by the U.N. General Assembly." ... [as NKR's] independence was declared not from the Soviet Union but from Azerbaijan, ... [and as Nagorno Karabakh] at that time was part of a still existent and internationally recognized Soviet Union, ... NKR's declaration of independence fully complied with existing law. ... [In particular,] the 1990 Soviet law titled 'Law of the USSR Concerning the Procedure of Secession of a Soviet Republic from the USSR,' provides that the secession of a Soviet republic from the body of the USSR allows an autonomous region and compactly settled minority regions in the same republic's territory also to trigger its own process of independence. ... [Furthermore,] the USSR Constitutional Oversight Committee did not annul the declaration to establishment the Nagorno Karabagh Republic, since that declaration was deemed in compliance with the then existing law".[60]”---- 1. Armenian perspective. There is nothing wrong with paragraph, but it is not informational, it is argumentative. What I mean is that the passage doesn’t describe anything, it just argues why NK should not be a part of Azerbaijan, but a dependent republic. Then, please put it under “Armenian Perspective” subheading.
- “At a recent press conference in Yerevan,Yuri Merzlyakov, the OSCE Minsk Group Russian Co-Chair stated, "At the press conference in Baku I underlined that Nagorno Karabakh was a part of Azerbaijani SSR and not of Azerbaijan. I perfectly know that till 1917 Nagorno Karabakh was a part of the Russian Empire. The history is necessary in order to settle conflicts, but it is necessary to proceed from international law".[64] Meanwhile, on June 10 2007 after US-Azerbaijani security consultations in Washington D.C. with Azerbaijani Deputy Foreign Minister Araz Azimov, Deputy Assistant Secretary of US Department of State, US Co-Chairman of OSCE Minsk group Matthew Bryza in a joint press conference announced: "In the circles of international law there is no universal formula for the supremacy of territorial integrity over the right of self-determination of people.".[65]”----1. Armenian perspective. Same as (17)
- (HUMAN RIGHTS ) “The Azerbaijani government has been unwilling to integrate the IDP's into the rest of the population as this could be interpreted as acceptance of the permanent loss of Nagorno-Karabakh.[citations needed]”----. 1. Armenian Perspective.2. Far from truth. How do you know this?? 3. No source. Where is citation? Again putting, [citation needed] doesn’t make it any right. For one thing, IDP's in Azerbaijan, refugees don’t pay anything for utilities and schools/universities. How come then Azerbaijani government doesn’t want “to integrate the IDP’s into the rest of population” then?
- (CONSTITUTIONAL REFERENDUM) “The outcome was also criticised by Turkey, which traditionally sides with Azerbaijan because of common Islamic faith and ethnic Turkic roots.[73]”-----1. Armenian perspective. How do you know that Turkey helps Azerbaijan “because of common Islamic faith and ethnic Turkic roots”? This claim is absurd. Besides, does it mean that Russia and the USA aids Armenia because they are Christians?? 2. Biased source. kafkaz.memo.ru is not a reliable source at all. They don’t even have a decent domain name.
- As you see there are many interpretations and POV mixed with facts. In order to solve most of the problems, I suggest that the article be split into 3 (NK, “NKR”, NKAO) and each one of them have subsection called “Armenian Perspective” and “Azerbaijani Perspective” in them. This way readers will be given more accurate and reliable information and they won’t have to analyze every single sentence and paragraph they read. Also, I hope, arguing between Azerbaijani Wikipedians and Armenian Wikipedians will at least slow down. Very reasonable and peaceful. Thank you--12insan 03:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh boy, where do we even begin...--Marshal Bagramyan 04:48, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- 12insan raised many valid points. But they should be discussed one by one. I agree that the present version has many flaws, better sources and better wording for certain passages would be really helpful. Grandmaster 04:54, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- 12insan, thankyou for your lengthy contribution, splitting the article into a "Azerbaijani perspective" and "Armenian perspective" is a non-starter, not a chance. - Francis Tyers · 09:17, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- With regard to point 1, the quote that you provided comes from the intro, however the text of the article actually says:
- On December 10, 1991 in a referendum boycotted by local Azerbaijanis,[2] Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh approved the creation of an independent state. A Soviet proposal for enhanced autonomy for Nagorno-Karabakh within Azerbaijan satisfied neither side, and a ground war subsequently erupted between Armenia and Azerbaijan. [8]
- So the intro may need to be synchronised with the text of the article to reflect the fact that Azerbaijani population took no part in the referendum. Grandmaster 09:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Francis, I didn't suggest to split the article into "Armenian Perspective" and "Azerbaijani Perspective". You must have misunderstood. I suggest to split article in terms of content (NK, "NKR", NKAO) and insert "Armenian Perspective" and "Azerbaijani Perspective" into each article. --12insan 18:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
- Francis, Golbez, good luck to you both... You'll need patience...HyeProfile 00:24, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
- Golbez, it's been more than 10 days. What do you say? No one is responding. What is going on? Hyeprofile, it would really come handy if you tried to contribute something to discussion instead of implying things. --12insan 04:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Dear Sirs, I greatly appreciate uploading original photos but they are of very poor quality. please consider editing them or replacing them with better pictures. Bassenius 16:26, 12 November 2007 (UTC) I would also like to clarify the notion of being "officially" part of Azerbaijan. I think this is a confusing formulation. Some countries recognize NK as part of Az. but some refuse to take position or retain a stance which is not revealing of their stance. Bassenius 15:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Recent attempts to change the intro
The following has been proposed to be the first graf of the intro:
- Nagorno-Karabakh is a de facto independent republic located in the South Caucasus. The international status of Nagorno-Karabakh is a source of dispute. Some countries and international organizations, especially in their interactions with Baku, consider it to be part of the Republic of Azerbaijan. However, most foreign entities officially admit that the final status of the region should be formulated in the process of ongoing negotiations.
Utterly unsourced, and tries to make a roundabout statement that, while it's generally considered part of Azerbaijan, it's wink-wink-nudge-nudge considered independent. I don't think this is going to fly, as it's unsourced in the article. Yes, while saying "officially" part of Azerbaijan may be kludgy, it's the best method that was agreed on, and matches the position of the United Nations. At best, we could change it to "a de facto independent republic within the borders of Azerbaijan", which was a proposal I made sometime last year I think, and would make it match the articles on the similar regions of South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria; however, if I recall, that was considered a little unwieldly; but since it's been adopted on the other articles, it may work now. However, as with all changes to the intro, these need to be discussed extensively on the talk page before being made. This intro is the result of many months of mediation between the two sides, and it will not be changed on a whim. --Golbez 23:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
- ^ http://www.army.lv/?s=1207&id=3024
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
dewaal
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).