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== Illiteracy == |
== Illiteracy == |
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Is his illiteracy notable enough to be in the infobox? [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 07:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC) |
Is his illiteracy notable enough to be in the infobox? [[User:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="Tahoma">Pass a Method</font>]] [[User talk:Pass a Method|<font color="grey" face="papyrus">talk</font>]] 07:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC) |
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*'''Conditional support:''' I don't object to include "unlettered" in the infobox... That our Prophet (SAW) did not know how to read and write is quite significant. But "illiterate" doesn't seem ok.—[[User talk:Syed Wamiq Ahmed Hashmi|<span title="Wamiq" style="font-family:Roman;color:#006600;border-radius:5px;border-top:2px solid #006600; border-bottom:2px solid #006600">ШαмıQ</span>]]<span style="font-family:MS Gothic"><big>✍</big></span> @ 07:52, 19 December 2013 (UTC) |
*'''Conditional support:''' I don't object to include "unlettered" in the infobox... That our Prophet (SAW) did not know how to read and write is quite significant. But "illiterate" doesn't seem ok.—[[User talk:Syed Wamiq Ahmed Hashmi|<span title="Wamiq" style="font-family:Roman;color:#006600;border-radius:5px;border-top:2px solid #006600; border-bottom:2px solid #006600">ШαмıQ</span>]]<span style="font-family:MS Gothic"><big>✍</big></span> @ 07:52, 19 December 2013 (UTC) |
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Pictrues of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
A.A Please remove pictures from main page.Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) is such a dignified personality you can not make his pictures in Islam its considred as a blasphamy.You read his history he was a a beautiful and honourable person.So please remove these pictures and put his tomb's pictures.Put only hisexcellency's name not his fasle pictures.
Owais
- The pictures included in the article fall under the protection of WP:NOTCENSORED and will not be removed because of offense based arguments. Further the article itself is still locked from the last RFC that occured which included community wide discussion. Tivanir2 (talk) 14:29, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not done per Tivanir2. --Somchai Sun (talk) 15:57, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
This article is welll written and completely neutral when one is talking about writing.However I must say that the pictures of the Prophet(PBUH)are highly offensive — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mominjawad13579 (talk • contribs)
- Talk:Muhammad/FAQ#FAQ-q3 might help you. --NeilN talk to me 07:55, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- The pictures are not intrinsically offensive. Some people may feel offended by them but that is not a characteristic of the pictures but of these people. I would guess these people would feel offended by each and every picture in the world at the moment you write the name Muhammad under it. 84.129.208.93 (talk) 13:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yep. The whole "it's offensive" argument is nonsensical and has no place on Wikipedia. It all boiled down to WP:NOTCENSORED and it's gonna stay that way.--Somchai Sun (talk) 13:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Removal of word Concubine
The word "concubnine should be removed as historically it is accepted that all of the Prophet's(PBUH) wives were married to him. as can be seen even in the main article regarding it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_wives ,it is just an unncecessary controversial point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Engrusama (talk • contribs) 06:50, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- I've changed the text to more closely reflect what is in the Muhammad's wives article, although I have not removed the word "concubine", since the word is also used in that article. If the word is not appropriate, it would be helpful for you to provide clearer evidence. Thanks. Formerip (talk) 10:14, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
Recent infobox additions
I've reverted some odd and/or misleading (to me) infobox additions ("employer", "monuments", "opponents", "education"?) from Pass a Method and others. Listing here to discuss. --NeilN talk to me 03:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Nothing i have added it misleading. It is all easily verifiable and is largely even in the article itself. Pass a Method talk 04:33, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- And Pass a Method has reverted claiming "unexplained deletion" - well done there. Please explain how "illiterate" is relevant and where is it sourced? Please explain how "employers" are important enough to appear in the inforbox for this subject. --NeilN talk to me 04:40, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I have just sourced "illiterate" and it is relevant because of frequent such references throughout Islamic tradition. As for employers, it is relevant because it culminated into the first convert to Islam and served as a form of reputation and protection for Muhammad. Pass a Method talk 04:49, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- We're not listing historical figures as "illiterate". Seriously, this isn't a 4th grader's essay, it is an encyclopedia. Tarc (talk) 05:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Since its relevant and widely covered, then i'd prefer we abide by the infobox guideline and the due weight policies which state we should cover content in proportion to its coverage in relialbe sources. Pass a Method talk 05:33, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please stop edit warring to add this until you have consensus. The infobox documentation states, "Education, e.g. degree, institution and graduation year, if relevant." Clearly a 6th century figure will not have a degree or graduation year. Plus, the article text itself does not even mention his education and the significance of his illiteracy. The subject of his "employment" is also hardly covered. --NeilN talk to me 07:20, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- E.g. means for example. Its not necessarily limited to formal educational institutions. Pass a Method talk 07:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, I know what e.g. means. And for that time period, "None" is inappropriate as formal schooling was hardly prevalent and education was usually informal apprenticeships or tutoring or the like (e.g., "While still in his teens, Muhammad accompanied his uncle on trading journeys to Syria gaining experience in commercial trade") --NeilN talk to me 07:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- E.g. means for example. Its not necessarily limited to formal educational institutions. Pass a Method talk 07:27, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Please stop edit warring to add this until you have consensus. The infobox documentation states, "Education, e.g. degree, institution and graduation year, if relevant." Clearly a 6th century figure will not have a degree or graduation year. Plus, the article text itself does not even mention his education and the significance of his illiteracy. The subject of his "employment" is also hardly covered. --NeilN talk to me 07:20, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Since its relevant and widely covered, then i'd prefer we abide by the infobox guideline and the due weight policies which state we should cover content in proportion to its coverage in relialbe sources. Pass a Method talk 05:33, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- We're not listing historical figures as "illiterate". Seriously, this isn't a 4th grader's essay, it is an encyclopedia. Tarc (talk) 05:21, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
Illiteracy
Is his illiteracy notable enough to be in the infobox? Pass a Method talk 07:29, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Conditional support: I don't object to include "unlettered" in the infobox... That our Prophet (SAW) did not know how to read and write is quite significant. But "illiterate" doesn't seem ok.—ШαмıQ✍ @ 07:52, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- PS: To further elaborate myself, I want to get this included because this is well-established as well as a counter-intuitive fact. I think this is enough to warrant its inclusion. (I can further explicate why this is counter-intuitive despite the fact that illiteracy was so prevalent then) —ШαмıQ✍ @ 16:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose per above discussion. "Education = none" is quite misleading for a 6th century figure and the significance of Muhammad's illiteracy (hardly uncommon at the time) is not discussed in the article. Indeed, that fact currently appears nowhere in the article except for the proposed addition to the infobox. --NeilN talk to me 08:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Quite sensible... I read in a book that there were only 17 people who could read and write in Makkah in the Prophet's time. So the inability to read and write was fairly common. But as I have said, illiterate is not appropriate as he was not totally uneducated; informal education counts. But his unletteredness should be mentioned in the infobox as well as inside the article. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 08:50, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Support I also think we should add "unlettered" per wamiq. I'jaz has a section on it, and some muhammad sub-articles also mention it. Pass a Method talk 12:05, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose per NeilN. Apart from not being discussed in the article (although maybe it should be), illiteracy is not an educational qualification. "None" would also not be appropriate, because nobody has zero education. If you can talk, you must have been educated somehow. Formerip (talk) 12:39, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - A lack of education is not itself "education", and there is no significance to a historical 6th century figure's lack of literacy. This is just silly. Tarc (talk) 14:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- But when a person who is himself unlettered, brings what is the finest piece of literature in Arabic, it will attract the attention of the reader when mentioned. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 14:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, not a poster-board. Tarc (talk) 15:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well said... Neither do I want it to be so. I just support its inclusion and am clarifying my standpoint. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 15:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- I still don't think "Unlettered" should appear in the infobox beside Education as that is over-simplifying the situation. I'm all in favour of this fact and its significance as determined by scholars appearing in the article, though. --NeilN talk to me 16:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, then how about adding this:
‘Education: No formal education[a] (unlettered)’ ?
- Ok, then how about adding this:
- I still don't think "Unlettered" should appear in the infobox beside Education as that is over-simplifying the situation. I'm all in favour of this fact and its significance as determined by scholars appearing in the article, though. --NeilN talk to me 16:44, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Well said... Neither do I want it to be so. I just support its inclusion and am clarifying my standpoint. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 15:18, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, not a poster-board. Tarc (talk) 15:03, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- But when a person who is himself unlettered, brings what is the finest piece of literature in Arabic, it will attract the attention of the reader when mentioned. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 14:42, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - As I know, he was the manager of the business of Khadiza and as a manager he had to keep the account information of the whole business. An illiterate person can't do that I think. - Rahat (Talk * Contributions) 13:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- ^ Here, formal education should be taken in the historical context.
- Only if we add a section in the article saying why this is significant. --NeilN talk to me 23:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- It often comes forward as one of the key arguments used by Muslim scholars/apologists/Dawahists to "prove" Muhammad was the real deal. So that shouldn't be too hard. Somchai Sun (talk) 00:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it feels as though there is some dancing around the subject above. The Qu'ran is often said by muslims to be the finest example of Arabic ever written. Therefore, Muhammad's iliteracy is considered of significance to demonstrate the Qu'ran's divine origin I.e. he was not the author. It shouldn't be just left as a subliminal message - if mentioned at all it needs to be covered in the article.DeCausa (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I think that's correct. However, I think we should be careful. I don't think his illiteracy is what we would normally call a historical fact, although it is part of his conventional biography. We shouldn't present it as proof/possible proof of anything. Formerip (talk) 00:22, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it feels as though there is some dancing around the subject above. The Qu'ran is often said by muslims to be the finest example of Arabic ever written. Therefore, Muhammad's iliteracy is considered of significance to demonstrate the Qu'ran's divine origin I.e. he was not the author. It shouldn't be just left as a subliminal message - if mentioned at all it needs to be covered in the article.DeCausa (talk) 00:15, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- It often comes forward as one of the key arguments used by Muslim scholars/apologists/Dawahists to "prove" Muhammad was the real deal. So that shouldn't be too hard. Somchai Sun (talk) 00:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- Only if we add a section in the article saying why this is significant. --NeilN talk to me 23:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
Agreed... Well, neither was I proving the Divinity of the Quran, nor am I making Dawahs. I just said that a normal reader who doesn't consider the Quran to be of a Divine origin, would find this historical/biographical fact interesting... Nothing else. My comment about the Quran was to convince you people that this is significant enough to be included, not the readers that Muhammad (SAW) was the real deal. —ШαмıQ✍ @ 13:26, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Suicide Accusation is Fallacious and Wrong
The statement: "Upon receiving his first revelations, he was deeply distressed and resolved to commit suicide" is totally wrong and goes against Sunni beliefs and Islamic beliefs. There is no proof of such an accusation. It is the bizarre misinterpretations of racist orientalists and those who do not understand the Prophet Muhammad (SAW/Peace be upon him). There are many Islamic sources that counter the claims of these missionaries and orientalists regarding the false suicide allegations.[1][2][3]
As we can clearly see from the sources, the suicide accusation is false. It goes against historical Sunni and Shia beliefs. John Esposito's source is biased, fallacious, and totally wrong. Stop the misinterpretation of Islamic texts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.231.71 (talk) 20:31, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
- "Sunni beliefs and Islamic beliefs" - Sorry, but we don't pander to one groups opinion on Wikipedia. There are plenty of reliable sources out there for Muhammad written by non-Muslim sources. Unless you can prove John Esposito's is an unreliable source, then you have no basis for your claims. Counter-opinions from other scholars are always welcome however. See WP:RS WP:NPOV. Oh, and about your "Racist" comment - perhaps you should read up on the highly pro-Muhammad & non-Muslim sources out there? That would be nice. --Somchai Sun (talk) 21:46, 25 December 2013 (UTC)
@Somchai, you are totally wrong. You are already pandering to the views of Islamophobic liars who have been exposed in the links provided. There is NO validity to the claim of suicide. I mentioned Sunni beliefs and Islamic beliefs because later on it specified the beliefs of Shias, so the statement implies a Sunni relation, which is totally false. According to Sunni sources as well as Islamic sources the holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW/Peace be upon him) NEVER committed suicide and NEVER attempted to commit suicide. You are pandering to the views of racist Western orientalists who viewed Aboriginals of the Americas and Australia as sub-humans and you are taking these outdated, fallacious and wrong views out of other articles, but you are leaving these fallacious views in articles pertaining to Islam and the holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW/Peace be upon him). The statement in the article which states: "Upon receiving his first revelations, he was deeply distressed and resolved to commit suicide." is inaccurate and wrong. It is a slander and accusation, made by Western orientalists based on their own interpretation of Islamic texts, they have neglected and ignored the Islamic interpretations and I have provided you with sources that expose their lies. Stop pandering to these biased 19th Western century views. This article should be unbiased, and it currently is not. As I have stated, the statement pertaining to the suicide accusation should be removed as it has NO basis and absolutely NO validity.
Here are some articles, and we all may disagree or agree with some of the statements stated in these articles, but it gives you a perspective contrary to Esposito's, which regarding to the false suicide accusation should not be ignored in a so-called "unbiased article."
http://unveiling-christianity.org/
http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2010/11/prophet-muhammads-alleged-suicide.html
http://muslim-responses.com/The_Fatrah/The_Fatrah_
Once again, I request those who have access to editing this page to remove the false suicide accusation, for the sake of getting rid of Orientalist bias and misinterpretations of Islamic texts. There is too many different views in this topic to make a solid accusation pertaining to this. What the writers of this article have done is made a biased accusation, which holds no authenticity and validity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.231.71 (talk) 15:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- And once again, we request that you come up with some better sources. The first you offered constitutes purely theological arguments about the validity of a hadith, the second and third sources exists for the sole purpose of pushing a point of view, and the last source discusses the reliability of narrations, a topic on which the various Muslim sects disagree.
- It would be reasonable to modify the article text to say instead that some traditional narrations suggest that Muhammad contemplated suicide but that Sunni and Shia tradition rejects the idea. Beyond that, it isn't reasonable to remove outright a statement from the article that has adequate backing in reliable sources and traditional narrations. I do agree that Wikipedia shouldn't make a contentious claim in Wikipedia's narrative voice, but rather it should attribute the claim to a source. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- The bit about suicide fails WP:V because this citation was incomplete (it gave author and date as if the source was listed in the bibliograpahy, but it isn't). So I've removed it.
- The answer would be to find a high-quality source that gives the correct picture, whatever that may be. Formerip (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
- The citation was quite complete, if you look at the reference list. It was simply a page number from a more complete reference. This is standard practice. I have restored it. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- @Amatulic, I'm not seeing that. The cite is to Esposito 2010. There are references in the bibliography to Esposito works in 1998, 1999 and 2002 but not 2010. He published The future of Islam in that year, but I can't see that in the bib. I think that may have been FormerIP's point - although I would suggest tagging, rather than deleting. DeCausa (talk) 09:14, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- The citation was quite complete, if you look at the reference list. It was simply a page number from a more complete reference. This is standard practice. I have restored it. ~Amatulić (talk) 02:13, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
The purpose of these links was to bring in to light the complex nature of hadith analysis, what it means to different people, and what it means for this article. If you are looking for a Western source which puts in to question the suicide claim (rather the whole story in itself), I found such a claim in the book: Tajalli wa Ru'ya: A Study of Anthropomorphic Theophany and Visio Dei in the Hebrew Bible, the Qur'an and Early Sunni Islam by W. Wesley Williams on page 148. The author recalls three separate and conflictual accounts by Bukhari, Al-Tabari and Ibn Ishaq regarding what happened during this incident, the so called "call to prophecy." Each of these three authors give completely different accounts on the matter. Also, both Sunni and Shia theologians and scholars have denied the suicide accusation, as I have specified earlier.
In this book, it says: "While Patricia Crone's view of the Islamic historical/exegetical tradition may seem a little too pessimistic, it is apparently right on when it comes to the canonical account of Muhammad's [SAW] call to prophecy. "The whole story is the invention of a later age, "declared Richard Bell."
As we can see Western scholars have come to the conclusion that the story regarding the suicide and other aspects was an invention of the later age. The different accounts by Bukhari, Al-Tabari, and Ibn Ishaq as well as this statement show that a definitive suicide claim is not appropriate for an article which claims to be unbiased. Once again I request those with access to editing to remove the suicide accusation. Stories concerning this so called "call to prophecy" are highly contested and conflictual.
Side note: There are millions of hadiths and historical records regarding the holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW), more so than any other religious figure. Superficially analyzing one and making definitive claims such as "he was deeply distressed and resolved to commit suicide" is misleading, biased, wrong, and inaccurate. Different people have different approaches to historical records, so let us not ignore the Sunni and Shia views that deny the suicide accusation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.231.71 (talk) 15:59, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I just found the comment below posted on Template talk:Edit semi-protected, and it looked like it belonged here. — Mr. Stradivarius ♪ talk ♪ 03:54, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Hello, I would like a certain part of this article to be edited. In the category "Beginnings of Islam", it suggests that after Angel Gabriel came to the Prophet with the first words of the Quran, Prophet Muhammad returned home distressed and willing to commit suicide. This is not true! Please take this false information of this article. In all my learnings of Islamic history, this has never come up anywhere, that the Prophet Muhammad ever considered committing suicide. I repeatplease take this out! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.209.248.160 (talk) 03:22, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Village pump idea lab: Allowing old discussions to be rehashed on purpose to help include new editors
At Wikipedia:Village_pump_(idea_lab)#Allowing_old_discussions_to_be_rehashed_on_purpose_to_increase_editor_participation.3F_.28So_newcomers_can_get_a_sense_of_inclusiveness.29 I've looked at an interesting forum post from a user who argued that by not allowing old discussions to be rehashed (I didn't cite Muhammad as an example but it could be one) (and I think without new evidence would apply here!): "They are bored and unable to pay attention and unable to have the same discussions--which made the people talking a cohesive group--with newcomers so no one feels like they belong." and he argues that's how many Usenet groups declined into being "stale and intolerant"
Would anyone mind taking a look? WhisperToMe (talk) 03:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- I honestly do not see how one could think rehashing this discussion would be productive or beneficial. Resolute 03:45, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
- To address this point, I brought up the idea of maybe only some perennial discussions being eligible for re-discussions without new evidence. Resolute brought up a good point that the risk can be that high quality editors can be driven out if a particular contentious perennial discussion is allowed to be reopened. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)