Martinevans123 (talk | contribs) →Should this image be added to the article?: wholly inappropriate |
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:Please read above my comment regarding "fakeness" of the image. This image is considered as fake just by some media outlets. But not all. Journalists are not military experts of the international institution who are authorized to carry out an assessment of this evidence. Journalists conclusions about fakeness of the satellite image '''are just value judgments'''. Putin`s missile"[https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/489897351478525952] is a good example of what I mean to say here. This cover of [[The Sun (United Kingdom)|The Sun]] was published just a few hours after the MH17 crash without any investigation {{smiley}} and reliable evidence.--[[User:Александр Мотин|Александр Мотин]] ([[User talk:Александр Мотин|talk]]) 21:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC) |
:Please read above my comment regarding "fakeness" of the image. This image is considered as fake just by some media outlets. But not all. Journalists are not military experts of the international institution who are authorized to carry out an assessment of this evidence. Journalists conclusions about fakeness of the satellite image '''are just value judgments'''. Putin`s missile"[https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/489897351478525952] is a good example of what I mean to say here. This cover of [[The Sun (United Kingdom)|The Sun]] was published just a few hours after the MH17 crash without any investigation {{smiley}} and reliable evidence.--[[User:Александр Мотин|Александр Мотин]] ([[User talk:Александр Мотин|talk]]) 21:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC) |
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::I think it's wholly inappropriate to compare those sources currently cited as saying the image was fake with ''[[The Sun (United Kingdom)|The Sun]]''. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC) |
::I think it's wholly inappropriate to compare those sources currently cited as saying the image was fake with ''[[The Sun (United Kingdom)|The Sun]]''. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 21:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC) |
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:::Right, that was an example that reliable source and its journalists made its own comprehensive investigation within few hours. That is why do not poke me (not you personally) with your "own reliable sources". Wording should be neutrally phrased according to WP:WEIGHT and take into account all acceptable sources.--[[User:Александр Мотин|Александр Мотин]] ([[User talk:Александр Мотин|talk]]) 21:53, 11 October 2016 (UTC) |
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RUE report
@156.62.10.21: We've discussed the Russian Union of Engineers report here at least twice; I think consensus was against including it. Its conclusions are Fringe, in other words, substantially different from those of the rest of the world. In order to include it we need reliable secondary sources that indicate it's of enough WP:Weight to justify mentioning it. The sources you've given so far are both, unsurprisingly, conspiracy theorist websites (Globalresearch and [1]). I say it's unsurprising, because last time we found that outside of Russia, virtually nobody takes those conclusions seriously except for the same kinds of places where you also hear that 9/11 was an inside job and/or that ebola is a CIA plot. I'm opposed to giving sources like that a link from the article. Geogene (talk) 00:34, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- I concur. - Ahunt (talk) 16:31, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. Unreliable source. Ex nihil (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
- Concur. The discussion has been WP:EXHAUSTed. It would be appreciated if all new editors (IP editors included) took the time to read talk pages thoroughly before trying to edit war content into an article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:20, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Over and above the 'RS' question, (with which I concur with others), text which simply says a report has been published (without any indication of content), is fairly pointless. Pincrete (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Also, even if there were any speculation as to what it may or may not say, alluding to it is a breach of WP:CRYSTAL... and Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Over and above the 'RS' question, (with which I concur with others), text which simply says a report has been published (without any indication of content), is fairly pointless. Pincrete (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- Concur. The discussion has been WP:EXHAUSTed. It would be appreciated if all new editors (IP editors included) took the time to read talk pages thoroughly before trying to edit war content into an article. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:20, 16 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. Unreliable source. Ex nihil (talk) 23:28, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
Robert Parry
What about Parry's article and the CIA whistleblower? Why isn't this mentioned here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.60.209.192 (talk) 08:01, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
JIT Investigation press conference
The JIT has released some findings related to the crash, which I've added to the article. If you want to read a transcript the Dutch ministry has one here, or a video with English translation here. Summary: Buk fired from rebel territory (a 500x600m field 6km south of Snizhne). Buk transported to and from Russia before and after crash respectively. Stickee (talk) 12:42, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Secondary source [2].Volunteer Marek (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've only used secondary sources in the article itself. Stickee (talk) 13:41, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- So, this is now an official conclusion by international investigation, basically a matter of fact. Perhaps this should be placed more prominently in the beginning of intro. So, according to rebels, "We never had such air defence systems, nor the people who could operate them". Yes, they never had. According to the investigation, the Buk was operated by Russian military team if I understand correctly. My very best wishes (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yes. I would strongly support greater prominence. Regarding direct personal responsibility, as the BBC source says, the JIT "established the identities of about 100 people "linked to the crash or the transport of the Buk" missile, but they are yet to determine who could be held criminally responsible." Martinevans123 (talk) 14:59, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- The actual Openbaar Ministerie films are also quite interesting as a reference because they provide quite a lot of technical details on how the investigation was actually performed. For example, that the specific missile model was identified by dismantling a number of authentic "Buk" missiles of different models and comparing the remains found in the wrecked plane. Cloud200 (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- So, this is now an official conclusion by international investigation, basically a matter of fact. Perhaps this should be placed more prominently in the beginning of intro. So, according to rebels, "We never had such air defence systems, nor the people who could operate them". Yes, they never had. According to the investigation, the Buk was operated by Russian military team if I understand correctly. My very best wishes (talk) 14:45, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Yeah, I've only used secondary sources in the article itself. Stickee (talk) 13:41, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- I am not sure there was a strong conclusion was that it was a Russian operated installation; the conclusion limited itself to stating it was a Russian (owned) installation that after firing the missile was moved back into Russia. It does not exclude (at this stage) that it may have been loaned to other operators during its stay inside Ukraine. Arnoutf (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just another publication [3]... Yes, you are probably right. One should probably look at the actual conclusions by the investigation. Were these conclusions made public, with all detail? My very best wishes (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- It is fairly explicit in the NYT that the board stopped short of pinpointing the identity/nationality of the individuals actually operating the missile, other than that, it appears to wholly endorse Russian and seperatist responsibility for the shoot-down and cover-up. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- Just another publication [3]... Yes, you are probably right. One should probably look at the actual conclusions by the investigation. Were these conclusions made public, with all detail? My very best wishes (talk) 15:43, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
- I am not sure there was a strong conclusion was that it was a Russian operated installation; the conclusion limited itself to stating it was a Russian (owned) installation that after firing the missile was moved back into Russia. It does not exclude (at this stage) that it may have been loaned to other operators during its stay inside Ukraine. Arnoutf (talk) 15:27, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
A short summary of this info should be included in the lede.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:41, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- I think a radical re-write of the lead is in order, giving greater prominence to the two Dutch enquiries and pruning and 'time-stamping' early speculations, claims and counter-claims. Although largely chronological at present, the most important conclusions are somewhat 'buried' and timings are not always clear. Pincrete (talk) 22:36, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Fully agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea. - Ahunt (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- Hey! I also agree.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:03, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- I agree.--Darryl Kerrigan (talk) 00:06, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea. - Ahunt (talk) 23:10, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Fully agree. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Sandbox I've sandboxed the article, although I only intend to modify the lead, and have begun to (mentally) formulate a re-write, I'm unlikely to have much time for a few days to do this, but others are welcome to join in/comment. Pincrete (talk) 08:04, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- I also agree, I think we should also rewrite the ridiculously bloated cause of crash section, as all speculations and fringe in that section can now be delegated to "speculations" rather then serious analysis. Arnoutf (talk) 17:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
Cause of crash sub-section
Since all the investigation is trying to establish the 'cause of crash', this seems a very vaguely titled sub-section, but since I cannot work out specifically what it is about, I cannot make any suggestions. Pincrete (talk) 16:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Reworking lead
William M. Connolley I have very reluctantly reverted your edit, while most of us agree that the lead needs a major rewrite (see above) for reasons similar to your own, I don't think we can state Dutch findings as objective fact. We can, and do intend to give DSB and JIT greater prominence and to prune/summarise much earlier speculation, and drop the current, mainly chrnological structure, but it still has to be phrased as 'JIT concluded', 'DSB found' etc.
I intended to start work on a rewrite today and have 'sandboxed' the article, however RL intruded, you are very welcome to join in, but I think we need to exercise great care doing this. Pincrete (talk) 16:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I disagree. At some point (and I think now is that point) we can switch over from "X says that this happened" to "this happened"; once there is no longer reasonable doubt. And there is no longer reasonable doubt William M. Connolley (talk) 20:40, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree, our job is to present the available info in a balanced, accurate form, not reach conclusions about the balance of evidence. However, even if you were right about now being the time to make such a change, the recent JIT conference intentionally avoided saying who fired the missile, not their identity, group or even nationality, as did the DSB. Your edit said as a fact that it was fired by pro-Russian insurgents, JIT did not say that or even imply it. Clearly it is one of JIT's lines of inquiry, and they may say more at a later date, but at the moment, who fired is an assertion from many Western sources and a claimed probability from others. This is one of many reasons why we need to be very careful about our rephrasing. Pincrete (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with Pincrete. Per WP:NOT#JOURNALISM, it's not up to editors to read between the lines. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:04, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I agree with edit by William, except that instead of "The plane was shot down by pro-Russian insurgents", it should tell "The plane was shot down by pro-Russian insurgents or by Russian military team" because that is what most recent official and older findings imply.
- P.S. Note also that telling "mistakenly" in old/current version is wrong because no one knows the actual intentions. According to one version, the intention was to shot down a Russian passenger plane that "accidently" changed its route during this day (as a causus belli for large-scale invasion into the Ukrainian territory), but the plan was changed and they decided to hit a Ukrainian military plane and mistakenly hit Flight 17. One of the reason for such version is that transporting the single Buk to Donbass was not needed to hit Ukrainian military planes: a lot of them were shot down using other weaponry that rebels already had. (The Buk is only needed to hit high-flying objects like passenger planes, but Ukrainian military planes flew on a much lower altitude). My very best wishes (talk) 23:30, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- Quite right about the use of 'mistakenly'. I'd missed that in the reading. No second-guessing intent or lack of intent. The NPOV reading is simply shot down without any of the speculation. Speculative scenarios are editorialising/OR as to who was responsible and OR motives. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:12, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ditto, right about 'mistakenly'. We cannot say that DSB or JIT 'pointed the finger' at Russian or Russian backed rebels since they did not say it (if I remember correctly), and we cannot turn an inference into a fact. I believe JIT intimated that it had evidence which would 'narrow the field', which they would offer to any criminal/further investigations. Balancing readability with scrupulous accuracy needs great care IMO. Pincrete (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- At this stage, what we have is tabloid and headline soundbytes implying that the the culprits have been nailed, but the actual statements by the official bodies do not. Nothing changes until the JIT announces its findings. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Detail, since it is likely to go from the lead anyhow, but 'mistakenly' actually comes from the US source and so long as that is clear, it isn't editorialising but part of US claim. JIT may not announce for some time, since they have previously indicated a wish to present in a judicial situation. Pincrete (talk) 08:24, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, yes. You're correct. Thinking on it, it may also come across as POV without the 'mistakenly' as it could also imply that it was intentional. Given that you're reworking the article, I'll leave it to your discretion as to whether it should be restored. My gut feeling is that, at this point in time, it should. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna, I'm not sure that 'mistakenly' matters either way in the lead if claimed deeds, rather than intenions, are being reported, but I'll reinsert it in my rework. The sandboxed rewrite is at a stage that your (or other editors') comments/thoughts would be welcome. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- @Pincrete: Cheers. I'll read through it ASAP. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:43, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Iryna, I'm not sure that 'mistakenly' matters either way in the lead if claimed deeds, rather than intenions, are being reported, but I'll reinsert it in my rework. The sandboxed rewrite is at a stage that your (or other editors') comments/thoughts would be welcome. Pincrete (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ah, yes. You're correct. Thinking on it, it may also come across as POV without the 'mistakenly' as it could also imply that it was intentional. Given that you're reworking the article, I'll leave it to your discretion as to whether it should be restored. My gut feeling is that, at this point in time, it should. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 21:18, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- Detail, since it is likely to go from the lead anyhow, but 'mistakenly' actually comes from the US source and so long as that is clear, it isn't editorialising but part of US claim. JIT may not announce for some time, since they have previously indicated a wish to present in a judicial situation. Pincrete (talk) 08:24, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
- At this stage, what we have is tabloid and headline soundbytes implying that the the culprits have been nailed, but the actual statements by the official bodies do not. Nothing changes until the JIT announces its findings. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ditto, right about 'mistakenly'. We cannot say that DSB or JIT 'pointed the finger' at Russian or Russian backed rebels since they did not say it (if I remember correctly), and we cannot turn an inference into a fact. I believe JIT intimated that it had evidence which would 'narrow the field', which they would offer to any criminal/further investigations. Balancing readability with scrupulous accuracy needs great care IMO. Pincrete (talk) 08:52, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- Quite right about the use of 'mistakenly'. I'd missed that in the reading. No second-guessing intent or lack of intent. The NPOV reading is simply shot down without any of the speculation. Speculative scenarios are editorialising/OR as to who was responsible and OR motives. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:12, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement with Pincrete. Per WP:NOT#JOURNALISM, it's not up to editors to read between the lines. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:04, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- I strongly disagree, our job is to present the available info in a balanced, accurate form, not reach conclusions about the balance of evidence. However, even if you were right about now being the time to make such a change, the recent JIT conference intentionally avoided saying who fired the missile, not their identity, group or even nationality, as did the DSB. Your edit said as a fact that it was fired by pro-Russian insurgents, JIT did not say that or even imply it. Clearly it is one of JIT's lines of inquiry, and they may say more at a later date, but at the moment, who fired is an assertion from many Western sources and a claimed probability from others. This is one of many reasons why we need to be very careful about our rephrasing. Pincrete (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
Reworked lead
The lead rewrite is ready for inspection, and if there are no major complaints will be BRD'd into place in the next few days (hopefully more 'D' than 'R'). At present it is 7 shortish paragraphs, but pairs could easily be merged to make 5 or 4. I've left it in that longer form for convenience of discussion. I've actually included more topic areas, but tried to put related info into less detailed paras thematically. If in doubt, I left topics in. I believe I have checked my refs, but any double checking would be welcome.
I'm uncertain whether 'Bellingcat' deserves to be in the lead at all, it is more notable as an example of the role that analysis of social media has played in the investigation than for any specific contribution from them. Apart from the launcher number, all their claims I believe, have also been made by others. Pincrete (talk) 15:26, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks Pincrete for the work. A few comments (below) to prevent to many changes
- 1)The first two opening lines "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that was shot down on 17 July 2014, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] Contact with the Boeing 777-200ER airliner was lost about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border, and it crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border." are rather complex.
- Perhaps splitting them up would improve readability (albeit making it all somewhat staccato)? e.g. "Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17)[a] was a scheduled international passenger flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. It was shot down on 17 July 2014, killing all 283 passengers and 15 crew on board.[2] Contact with the Boeing 777-200ER airliner was lost about 50 km (31 mi) from the Ukraine–Russia border. The plane crashed near Torez in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 40 km (25 mi) from the border."
- 2) Second section. The phrase "missile type responsible and found" is a bit odd. The missile type was not responsible (as that implies intention) and the JIT concluded rather than "found". I would suggest "missile type causing the crash and concluded"
- 3) Third section. I find this somewhat problematic. The first line "The DSB and JIT findings confirmed earlier claims by the Ukrainian government and Western intelligence sources as to the missile type and launch area." implies the intelligence services are right (which is the case here) but would suggest the next (so far unproven) claim is also right (implied synthesis-> original research). I would suggest moving this line to the end of the previous section (where it closes the DSB-JIT findings) and rephrase the 3rd section as
- 4)Consider further reducing sections 3,4,5,6 (initial responses and Bellingcat) (although I can imagine you think that would go too far in this first step). Perhaps something like this might work though
- In 2014, Ukraine and US intelligence alleged that Russia had supplied the missile to pro-Russian insurgents, who had mistakenly shot down the aircraft.[9][10][11][12] German intelligence sources in 2014 reported that they believe insurgents had stolen the missile from the Ukrainian military.[13][14][15] Russian government sources initially claimed that the aircraft was being tailed by a Ukrainian military jet at the time of the shootdown[10] and that Ukraine was responsible since the crash had happened in Ukrainian airspace.[16] Several other theories about the crash, denying Russian involvement, have since appeared in Russian media.[17] Immediately after the crash, a post appeared on the VKontakte social media profile attributed to Russian Colonel Igor Girkin, a leader of the Donbass separatist militia, claiming responsibility for shooting down an AN-26 near Torez. Later the same day, the separatists denied involvement, and the post was removed.[18][19][20]. Bwetween 2014 and 2016, UK based investigative collective Bellingcat, based onon examination of photos in social media and other open-source information, made a series of allegations, which arrives at the conclusion that the launcher used to shoot down the aircraft was unit 332 of the Russian 53rd Anti-Aircraft Rocket Brigade based in Kursk .[24][25][26][27] [28]"
- Last section is fine (no comments). Sorry for not pitching in earlier. Feel free to add it boldly as your version is imho a vast improvement over the current. Again, thanks for the hard work. Cheers Arnoutf (talk) 17:06, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Most of these suggestions seem excellent, better flow without loss of significant info or neutrality. I would incorporate straightaway, were it not for RL and the need to eat. Thanks. Pincrete (talk) 18:07, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Arnoutf, 1) I haven't done, since para 1 is largely 'as present', but I'm happy for you or others to do if you/they think it an improvement.
- 2) is done
- 3) is not done YET, I was aware of the danger you mention of implying that if some earlier claims are true, others probably also are. For the time being I think I prefer 'topic' paras, but am happy for the change to be made if thought necessary. The advantage of more short paras (as a temp measure?) is that it makes our discussion easier as I've tried to make each para a distinct 'topic area'.
- 4) is partially done. Pincrete (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I've just fixed the ref error. I've made a couple of minor changes/fixes, and I might do some more major shifting soon. Just to clarify with regards to this edit, Girkin was *the* leader of the Donbass People's Militia. There's multiple separatist militias (others include the Luhansk People's Militia), but of the Donbass militia specifically, he was the very top dog (which is even stated on his Wikipedia article). Stickee (talk) 11:04, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I was uncertain about Gurkin, prior lead said 'leader of the separatists', which implied sole political leader.Pincrete (talk) 11:35, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I've just fixed the ref error. I've made a couple of minor changes/fixes, and I might do some more major shifting soon. Just to clarify with regards to this edit, Girkin was *the* leader of the Donbass People's Militia. There's multiple separatist militias (others include the Luhansk People's Militia), but of the Donbass militia specifically, he was the very top dog (which is even stated on his Wikipedia article). Stickee (talk) 11:04, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
List of all Ukraine (Kiev aligned) army plane downings?
Is there a list showing the dates of all the planes shot down in Ukraine during the civil war?
-G — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.38.9 (talk) 01:29, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- The "Background" section of this article lists some, but I'm not sure it's an exhaustive list. Alternatively, section 5.3 (page 181) of the DSB's final report goes into much further detail. Stickee (talk) 23:39, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
- I would argue that such a list would be relevant to the War in Donbass article or similar, but not this one. Arnoutf (talk) 07:51, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
- If memory serves correctly, a 'list' of this nature became redundant to the War in Donbass article as there was far too much to cover in the umbrella article. Project Military History took on these aspects quickly, and there is also comprehensive coverage of all reported events in the timelines of the war. As it stands, there haven't been very many planes, helicopters, etc. shot down, full stop. The majority of the war has, unfortunately, been conventional warfare in solidly inhabited areas. As a side note, only a few sources call it a 'civil war' for good reason. It may serve G well to read the main article in order to understand the complexities, and why it is simplistic to consider it to be such. As Wikipedia is WP:NOTEVERYTHING, serving as a numbers cruncher for all aspects of events is not a good idea. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:28, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed, no need for a complete list in this article. Stickee (talk) 23:17, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- I would argue that such a list would be relevant to the War in Donbass article or similar, but not this one. Arnoutf (talk) 07:51, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
Should this image be added to the article?
To the right is a satellite image provided by the RF purporting to be images of Buks. I'm of the opinion it shouldn't be added to the article. Right now, the images relating to the cause of crash in the article only contain facts concluded by the DSB/JIT or their evidence. Relevant diff: [5] Stickee (talk) 23:16, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Text from the article: "On 21 July 2014, the Russian Ministry of Defence held a press conference and said that while the Boeing 777 was crashing, a Ukrainian Su-25 ground-attack aircraft approached to within 3 to 5 kilometres (1.9 to 3.1 mi) of the Malaysian airliner. The MoD also stated that satellite photographs showed that the Ukrainian army moved a Buk SAM battery to the area close to the territory controlled by the rebels on the morning of 17 July, hours before the crash."
- What are you talking about? It is highly relevant image presented at the press-conference which is described in the article (i made text bold for you if you do not see it [6]). The image illustrates their statement that is in the article. This text citation exists in the article more than a year that means that there is a consensus about text and wording in the article. This image does not bring anything not related to this section and fully agrees with the section of the article. Moreover this image is very well sourced that proves its significance. Your edit should be immediately cancelled until clear argumentation.--Александр Мотин (talk) 07:49, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- The image supported a claim, and so long as text and caption are phrased neutrally, which they appear to be at present, I see no objection to inclusion. Image quality is low, but that is a wholly different argument.
- Tend to agree with Pincrete, but care must be taken to ensure it's not seen as a part of, or outcome from, the official investigation. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, I just realised these were the images the press described as fake [7]. Probably even less likely that they should be in the article. But in the meantime, I've given a description according to what the RS's say about it (more refs there). Stickee (talk) 10:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, really? This is actually different argument and by the way nobody stops you to point that in the article. But that is very weak reason to delete this image because it was presented as official evidence days after the crash.--Александр Мотин (talk) 10:59, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- ... "presented as official evidence days after the crash" - yes, presented officilaly by the Russian government. This does not equate to "used as evidence in the offical enquiry", does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- You want the entire article to be the press release by JIT or DSB? --Александр Мотин (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't actually recall suggesting that. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:31, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I do not understand why you are arguing with me, while this sourced piece of text in bold above was written by completely different authors over a year ago. You should address all your comments about wording of that piece of text to them but not me. This image just illustrates that piece of text with neutrally phrased caption.--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:19, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Then we can both agree that the words "presented as official evidence days after the crash" should not appear in the article, just as now. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:25, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I will be satisfied with any consensus and neutral wording.--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Likewise. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:59, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I will be satisfied with any consensus and neutral wording.--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Then we can both agree that the words "presented as official evidence days after the crash" should not appear in the article, just as now. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:25, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I do not understand why you are arguing with me, while this sourced piece of text in bold above was written by completely different authors over a year ago. You should address all your comments about wording of that piece of text to them but not me. This image just illustrates that piece of text with neutrally phrased caption.--Александр Мотин (talk) 12:19, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't actually recall suggesting that. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:31, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- You want the entire article to be the press release by JIT or DSB? --Александр Мотин (talk) 11:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- ... "presented as official evidence days after the crash" - yes, presented officilaly by the Russian government. This does not equate to "used as evidence in the offical enquiry", does it? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:13, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, really? This is actually different argument and by the way nobody stops you to point that in the article. But that is very weak reason to delete this image because it was presented as official evidence days after the crash.--Александр Мотин (talk) 10:59, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, I just realised these were the images the press described as fake [7]. Probably even less likely that they should be in the article. But in the meantime, I've given a description according to what the RS's say about it (more refs there). Stickee (talk) 10:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Tend to agree with Pincrete, but care must be taken to ensure it's not seen as a part of, or outcome from, the official investigation. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:47, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I guess it's no surprise to many that RT should be publishing fake inages. But in my view this actually argues for their inclusion here, with a suitable supporting description. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:12, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think this image is a bit of a distraction, what is more serious IMO is that in the attached text, two distict theories (Ukrainian air-to-air and Ukrainian operated SAM) and their respective rebuttals are rather 'merged', as though they were one thing. Pincrete (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Producer of Buk missile system made their own experiments to prove the theory where the missile was launched from. Their natural experiment (they exploded Buk missille by the Il-86 fuselage on the ground) and subsequent or preceding supercomputer calculation showed them the area where this missile could be launched from (Zaroshchenske). [8][9] As far as I understand they have exclusive competence to claim anything about the missile because they are the only producer of this missile system. That is why this image is important because it represents several statements of different russian instutions about the same possible missile launch site. It would be silly for them to claim seriously after that experiment that the aircraft could be downed by jet fighter. --Александр Мотин (talk) 17:30, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think this image is a bit of a distraction, what is more serious IMO is that in the attached text, two distict theories (Ukrainian air-to-air and Ukrainian operated SAM) and their respective rebuttals are rather 'merged', as though they were one thing. Pincrete (talk) 15:00, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Check the archives. I'm sure this was discussed already. Multiple times.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:24, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
And frankly, the fact that people are still trying to push these wacky theories two years after they've been thoroughly discredited is ridiculous.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:37, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- So long as the treatment of these theories is neutral, and any RS'd rebuttals included, I don't see a problem. We include wackier theories (the plane was full of corpses?). Pincrete (talk) 19:18, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sure. Either not include it, or include it but describe it as it is described in sources.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- And in this case the sources explicitly say the images were faked:
- "Forensic report: Russia faked MH17 satellite photos"
- "Russian Images of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Were Altered"
- "fake images", "false satellite image"
- Then so do we.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:33, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, the image was fake. That is what sources tell. There are no any questions or real doubts about it, especially after recent conclusions by the international investigation team. I moved this to a different section. Perhaps we need a separate subsection entitled "Conspiracy theories" (no objections from me), but it also looks good as a part of the coverage by Russian press (e.g. by "Novaya gazeta"). My very best wishes (talk) 20:41, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- That might be a better solution. Although it is a key part of the "narrative" of establishing the true cause? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- I do not think this story has anything to do with establishing the true cause. To the contrary, this is all about the disinformation campaign to hide the true cause. The disinformation campaign was notable and therefore must be included on the page, but I think it should be explicitly described (and possibly entitled in a separate section) as such. Well, this is basically another Korean Air Lines Flight 007 story, except that everything was denied by the perpetrator, very much as in Crimea, Donbass, and Syria. My very best wishes (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Very little of 'cause of crash' is actually about cause of crash. That is mainly in DSB and JIT, cause of crash is mainly about earlier speculation (much of which has been endorsed by DSB?JIT, nonetheless it was speculation when made). I agree with Martinevans, that this is part of the narrative, it may itself have been intentional disinformation, nonetheless the attempt (and the boomerang?) are part of the story of how what is known became known. Pincrete (talk) 08:35, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I do not think this story has anything to do with establishing the true cause. To the contrary, this is all about the disinformation campaign to hide the true cause. The disinformation campaign was notable and therefore must be included on the page, but I think it should be explicitly described (and possibly entitled in a separate section) as such. Well, this is basically another Korean Air Lines Flight 007 story, except that everything was denied by the perpetrator, very much as in Crimea, Donbass, and Syria. My very best wishes (talk) 22:28, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- That might be a better solution. Although it is a key part of the "narrative" of establishing the true cause? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:05, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, the image was fake. That is what sources tell. There are no any questions or real doubts about it, especially after recent conclusions by the international investigation team. I moved this to a different section. Perhaps we need a separate subsection entitled "Conspiracy theories" (no objections from me), but it also looks good as a part of the coverage by Russian press (e.g. by "Novaya gazeta"). My very best wishes (talk) 20:41, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- If someone wants to point that the image is fake better to do it by neutral phrasing. But what was reason to delete the text about press conference of the Russian MoD (21 July 2014)[10]? There is a consensus about it for more than a year that is why there should be discussion about it before deletion.--Александр Мотин (talk) 14:55, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- This text was not deleted, but moved. You now duplicated this text (your diff). My very best wishes (talk) 18:00, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Russian MoD is not media outlet.--Александр Мотин (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- By the way there is no competent international institution so far that made expertise of the satellite image. Everyone can say that it is fake, but only competent international institution can make any unbiased competent conclusions. And Russia proposed ICAO to lead the investigation but this idea was refused by other concerned parties (why? ). ICAO could expertise this image within investigation, for example, because they have competent experts but not journalists and bloggers :)--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- But we had "consensus for more than a year" over the "text about press conference of the Russian MoD" without this image to illustrate it? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- And what WP rule prohibits to illustrate consensus text? It is just illustration to the consensus text but not separate claim/statement. And its caption is neutrally phrased by the way.--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think it might depend on what the image is alleged to show and on the relative WEIGHT which the addition of such an illustration might add. Do you really think that every factual item in the text of an article should be illustrated with a separate image? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Then we should talk about all images in the article not only about the one in this context (WP:WEIGHT). --Александр Мотин (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy with all the other images. What do other editors think? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- As I said before this article shoul not be a kind of DSB/JIT press release with their images only. This image is well sourced that means it has high notability and does not illustrate irrelevant facts - it illustrates a large piece of the consensus text and now the official version of Russia that missile was launched from that area which is on the image after series of experiments of Almaz-Antey [11] which the only producer of that missile system. If you need sources for that let me know.--Александр Мотин (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't feel strongly either way about the image, it isn't very informative and no reader could judge either what it purportedly shows, nor its authenticity but our decision shouldn't be based on its authenticity, rather on whether it aids understanding of what the claims were, which I would say was a little, but not much. Pincrete (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- But do not forget the fact that this image is very offensive (not sure that this word correct to describe meaning of "резонансный") to some authors here because a lot of authors here easily provided tons of sources describing this image as fake. That means that this image does not lack notability and shows us that this image is quite recognizable by readers and authors.--Александр Мотин (talk) 16:54, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I don't feel strongly either way about the image, it isn't very informative and no reader could judge either what it purportedly shows, nor its authenticity but our decision shouldn't be based on its authenticity, rather on whether it aids understanding of what the claims were, which I would say was a little, but not much. Pincrete (talk) 16:43, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- As I said before this article shoul not be a kind of DSB/JIT press release with their images only. This image is well sourced that means it has high notability and does not illustrate irrelevant facts - it illustrates a large piece of the consensus text and now the official version of Russia that missile was launched from that area which is on the image after series of experiments of Almaz-Antey [11] which the only producer of that missile system. If you need sources for that let me know.--Александр Мотин (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy with all the other images. What do other editors think? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:18, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Then we should talk about all images in the article not only about the one in this context (WP:WEIGHT). --Александр Мотин (talk) 16:13, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think it might depend on what the image is alleged to show and on the relative WEIGHT which the addition of such an illustration might add. Do you really think that every factual item in the text of an article should be illustrated with a separate image? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- And what WP rule prohibits to illustrate consensus text? It is just illustration to the consensus text but not separate claim/statement. And its caption is neutrally phrased by the way.--Александр Мотин (talk) 15:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- But we had "consensus for more than a year" over the "text about press conference of the Russian MoD" without this image to illustrate it? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
nb multiple edit conflict Александр Мотин, I sympathise with you to this extent, 1) I agree that this is not 'Russ media coverage' 2) I think the present caption text is 'using a sledgehammer to crack a nut' and thus doing a disservice to the reader who wishes to read what the Russian claim was, then the rebuttals and then make up their own minds which is more credible.
I have said elsewhere on this page, several times, that I have no idea what the 'cause of crash' section is supposed to be about, it certainly doesn't identify what official bodies have said the cause was, but is much more the ping-pong of two years of claim and counter-claim amounting to a fairly incoherent narrative. I'm not sure how that could be improved, one possibility is a distinct 'Russian theories' section and a separate 'Western theories' section. Pincrete (talk) 16:27, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Western - non Western split is far from trivial. It would be very far fetching to label Malaysia, Ukraine and Indonesia as Western. They were involved as countries in whose air space this happened, and who suffered casualties (like UK, Netherlands, Australia etc). For the non involved countries we might split remaining theories in Russian and US response - as those seem the only important responses of non-involved countries. Arnoutf (talk) 21:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
" It is evidence by Russian instituion. Fake or not it is not the reason to move it her" - ummm, if it is fake, then it is not evidence.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:45, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Please read above my comment regarding "fakeness" of the image. This image is considered as fake just by some media outlets. But not all. Journalists are not military experts of the international institution who are authorized to carry out an assessment of this evidence. Journalists conclusions about fakeness of the satellite image are just value judgments. Putin`s missile"[12] is a good example of what I mean to say here. This cover of The Sun was published just a few hours after the MH17 crash without any investigation and reliable evidence.--Александр Мотин (talk) 21:08, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's wholly inappropriate to compare those sources currently cited as saying the image was fake with The Sun. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Right, that was an example that reliable source and its journalists made its own comprehensive investigation within few hours. That is why do not poke me (not you personally) with your "own reliable sources". Wording should be neutrally phrased according to WP:WEIGHT and take into account all acceptable sources.--Александр Мотин (talk) 21:53, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- I think it's wholly inappropriate to compare those sources currently cited as saying the image was fake with The Sun. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:50, 11 October 2016 (UTC)