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:*Using translated definitions as a disambiguator is a valid solution, however there is one problem that needs to be addressed: there are Chinese characters that exist, and ''have no meaning''. The following are just a few examples to explain what I mean, and aren't specifically related to names: Cases include purely phonetic characters (e.g. 咖 and 啡, which mean nothing by themselves, but together become ''kafei'', the English loanword for "coffee"), characters derived from [[Glossary of Buddhism|Sanskrit Buddhist texts]] (e.g. 迦, 閦, 薩, 卐), and characters written by a wrinkly old sage with a hairy beard a billion years ago that nobody today knows the meaning of (e.g. [[wikt:𠔻|𠔻]]). Now, I don't know exactly how many Chinese names fall into these categories, however there is one that definitely comes to mind, namely [[Li Surname (郦)]] - 郦 was the name of an ancient country, but other than that, nobody knows what it actually means. How would you suggest this case, and similar potential cases, be solved? --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 10:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC) |
:*Using translated definitions as a disambiguator is a valid solution, however there is one problem that needs to be addressed: there are Chinese characters that exist, and ''have no meaning''. The following are just a few examples to explain what I mean, and aren't specifically related to names: Cases include purely phonetic characters (e.g. 咖 and 啡, which mean nothing by themselves, but together become ''kafei'', the English loanword for "coffee"), characters derived from [[Glossary of Buddhism|Sanskrit Buddhist texts]] (e.g. 迦, 閦, 薩, 卐), and characters written by a wrinkly old sage with a hairy beard a billion years ago that nobody today knows the meaning of (e.g. [[wikt:𠔻|𠔻]]). Now, I don't know exactly how many Chinese names fall into these categories, however there is one that definitely comes to mind, namely [[Li Surname (郦)]] - 郦 was the name of an ancient country, but other than that, nobody knows what it actually means. How would you suggest this case, and similar potential cases, be solved? --[[User:benlisquare|<span style="font-family:Monospace;padding:1px;color:orange">'''benlisquare'''</span>]]<sub>[[User talk:benlisquare|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benlisquare|C]]•[[Special:EmailUser/User:Benlisquare|E]]</sub> 10:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC) |
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:::Taking the last first, how about "Li (surname from the Li State)"? Or, if the second origin needs to be included in the title, how about "Li (Li State or Xirong surname)"? |
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:::The others may be beyond the scope of this RFC. Hypothetically speaking, for the phonetic characters, their transliterations would serve as a title. Further disambiguation, if needed ([[ka]] would need it), would be descriptive, e.g. "ka (Chinese phonetic character)" or "ka (Chinese surname)". Are you anticipating articles about the Sanskrit or ancient characters or names that contain them? It usually is possible to describe something in English, even if a bit is lost in translation.--[[User:Wikimedes|Wikimedes]] ([[User talk:Wikimedes|talk]]) 03:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:17, 22 November 2013
AfD closure on individual families has been overturned: WP:Deletion review/Log/2013 November 10
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Untitled
- top importance: stated as the most common surname on earth --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 20:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
There is a proposal to create a precedent that names are not encyclopedic. Articles about names regularly show up on various deletion pages and are summarily deleted. Perhaps - since you've been working on an article about a name, you hold a different opinion that you'd like to express. Please do: Wikipedia:Deletion policy/names and surnames SchmuckyTheCat 17:05, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Chinese Name
Don't you think it's better to put a person's Chinese name in each name written, like Ang Lee, could it be like this?
- Ang Lee (李安), acclaimed Academy Awards winning film director
A-yao 04:33, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Lee & Li
I removed this somewhat obscure passage:
- There is also another legend that the surname Li is actually a branch from the Lee surname due to a rebellion. There is evidence of a once great war, located in the outlying Lee villages. Weapons and armour can be found lying scattered across the fertile rice fields. Upon these items is the emblem of 'Lee' and 'Li'. The local villagers say that according to folklore, the Li were inevitably crushed by the superior skills and numbers of the Lee.
It somehow makes the assupmtion that Lee's and Li's are separate identities: these are transliterations and nothing more, so when referring to a war between two different Li's, then please use Chinese characters. As it stands here it's pretty nonsensical. JREL (talk) 13:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Fork
This article was forked into Li (李). Please discuss cleanup on that article's talk page. -- Robocoder (t|c) 05:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I see there are two other forks of this article. Therefore, I've converted this article to a dab page. -- Robocoder (t|c) 20:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Disambiguation Page
Shouldn't this be a disambiguation page? These are distinct names in Chinese, and the fact that English phonetics isn't robust enough to distinguish between them doesn't have anything to do with that.--Isaac R (talk) 22:21, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
- Reasonable question - let's take this to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:21, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Related article naming discussions
Several pages were resorted and redirect and renamed, so the discussion of that occurred at what is now called Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 07:09, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- There has been a sudden batch of controversial merges and moves. See Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit"). In ictu oculi (talk) 09:43, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
Merger proposal
The recent discussion at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") draws the conclusion that we look for other solutions than using Chinese characters in article titles. Li Surname (郦), Li Surname (理) and Li Surname (莉) are recently created non-notable stubs written in poor English by a now-blocked user, whose creation of these articles was deemed disruptive editing, and there is little salvageable material. These should be merged to this umbrella article unless deemed independently notable. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:51, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Also including Li (surname meaning "chestnut") and Li (surname meaning "whetstone") as these were created under the same auspices. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- What is this? As above these moves and merges are already being discussed at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") together with previous discussion. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:58, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's the wrong place for this merger discussion. I already said that we should centralise here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- (Further reply at tail of original discussion) Re "already" - for the record the section on the batch of undiscussed merges and moves was opened at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") 09:25, 3 July 2013. User:Robsinden responded by "saying" discuss here Talk:Li (surname) 09:36, 3 July 2013, and then placing merge tags directing here at 09:45, 09:46, 09:47. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- That's the wrong place for this merger discussion. I already said that we should centralise here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Close this discussion. Copy the existing discussion over to this page instead. You can use a {{moved discussion to}} / {{moved discussion from}} to indicate that the discussion was transferred. (The Requested Move should also be moved over, to provide context.) -- 65.94.79.6 (talk) 10:34, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- No - this is the proper place for this discussion, as it relates to merging specific articles to this article. The other discussion is mentioned above for reference. --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge or delete - I tagged the issues - are they even notable topics, even if put together? Without some WP:RS, what's to merge? This just looks like a mess that's worth starting again. Quite some disruption considering all the moot points above, articles should be based on RS, and incubated or userified until then. All seems a bit WP:DEADHORSE. Widefox; talk 12:16, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Comment – Agree with Widefox. Given the length of my editing to-do list, this issue is of such a low priority that I should just ignore it, as my mind went numb trying to make sense of the prior RM discussion, but since Rob asked me for further input, I'll add this. Look at Rose (name), a typical English-language dab "article" on "Rose (name meaning a type of flower)". Note from the languages links in the left margin that there are about ten interlanguage links including French and German, but none to Chinese. If someone could point me to a typical English-language name dab "article" that does have a Chinese interlanguage link, I'd like to see it. Also wondering if there are any notable Chinese who have English-language articles, but do not have romanized names, so we are forced to use their Chinese-character names to identify them. Wbm1058 (talk) 13:05, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Good point, although WP:OTHERSTUFF applies. Fine to have any articles based on WP:RS, just can't make sense of it without RS. Even WP:SIAs such as Rose (name) need RS as per any list, (else we have a loophole for any random content). Widefox; talk 13:28, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input, although I think you're looking at the wider scope for other "Li" surnames, rather than the three specific stub articles in question. We've already established that this is the "umbrella" article for all surnames romanised as "Li", so this discussion is to ascertain whether these three particular articles are notable enough to warrant a page of their own, or merely a mention here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:39, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge, largely per User:Widefox and my comments at the other discussion. I had also been essentially arguing against the individual notability of these names, especially in the English Wikipedia. I think that a merge is the best way to go, to create an article discussing the English surname Li, with that article still outlining the potential etymological differences in these identical-in-English surnames. — TORTOISEWRATH 18:41, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge stubs with no discrimination against future splits Being the English Wikipedia does not mean we should only deal with an Anglocentric point of view, but I agree that for the time being we must be realistic and merge stubs that couldn't stand alone. Leave the big surnames like Li (surname meaning "plum") alone. _dk (talk) 19:18, 3 July 2013 (UTC)
*Delete zh:郦姓 - after seeing the rush of plain WP:INCOMPETENT comments above (exception dk) we should go there and delete the surname zh:郦姓 from Chinese wikipedia as well. After all if we're going to make a complete mess of Chinese surnames on en.wp we should go and mess up the names on Chinese wikipedia too. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:40, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- (ec) I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim Anglocentric or incompetence when it may be ignorance due to lack of RS. Add sources! Be aware of the irony of labelling editors by quoting WP:INCOMPETENT: "It does not mean we can label people as incompetent. For example, we do not say "You are incompetent because you don't know anything about the subject of this article. ... So if WP:COMPETENCE applies to an editor, it is usually not appropriate to tell them so." Widefox; talk 01:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- do nothing - lets let other discussions play out. There's no urgency here. Lets evolve an idea of what li (surname) should be and what it should contain, then merges or splits can be done later. This discussion right now only serves to fracture debate. Better let 1000 flowers bloom then collect them later if needed. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 05:20, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Questions:
- User:Widefox. On what basis is zh:郦姓 not notable? Do you think there are not enough sources? What constitutes enough?
- User:Wbm1058, same question. (in answer to "also wondering if there are any notable Chinese who have English-language articles, but do not have romanized names, so we are forced to use their Chinese-character names to identify them? - no, because those are articles about people so Andrew Lih could have "(writer)" added if there were two Andrew Lih not Andrew Lih (surname 郦). Second question, please clarify what "Given the length of my editing to-do list, this issue is of such a low priority" has to do with it? You are not the only editor available to edit these articles; there are plenty of WP:CHINA editors who can and will work on these articles unless they are prevented. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:10, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- User:TortoiseWrath, you mention "notability" and "English", so what does Wikipedia:Notability say about English sources? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:04, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Re: zh:... We're going round in circles, I seem to remember mentioning WP:OTHERSTUFF (also see WP:INN). About any sources there, yes, great!...didn't I right at the beginning ask for translation of non-English sources, which is per WP:NOENG . Widefox; talk 01:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't read or speak Chinese, so cannot assess zh:郦姓 for notability, as I don't know what that says. Alas, Chrome doesn't even offer to translate it. zh:Andrew Lih isn't a good example of what I was asking, as the Chinese article clearly has (Andrew Lih) (romanized name, not parenthetical disambiguation, I assume). Better example is zh:王鐘銘, which doesn't show an English name...oops, I see from the inter language link that he does have a romanized name, it's Chung-Ming Wang. So, every Chinese name can be romanized? The problem is that a dozen or more different Chinese names all romanize to the same English name "Li"? Why is that? Are they all pronounced the same, but just written differently in Chinese? I'm sure that WP:CHINA editors are more able and inclined to work on these than I am. I'm not sure who the intended readership of these articles is, just other WP:CHINA editors, or the rest of us too? I see Li (surname) seems to be a name disambiguation page that kind of answers my questions. Does that link to all the other "Li surname" articles? Do each of the "Li surname" articles hatnote back to Li (surname)? Hmm, this is interesting: I've found what appears to be a "Jimmy" disambiguation here: zh:吉米. I suppose that if the Chinese disambiguate with English, then it should be OK for English to dab with Chinese. Wbm1058 (talk) 03:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Close this discussion before it becomes a huge mess and bureaucratic nightmare. The discussion began on Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit"), and is still ongoing there. What we should avoid having is two different discussions on the same thing, which may potentially end up with two different outcomes. In such a case, which outcome do we follow? We'd just end up with even more bickering. Moving a portion of the discussion over here makes things confusing - some people already involved in the discussion don't know where to go, et cetera. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 04:28, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, this is the place for this separate discussion which does not affect the "sub-page" Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit"). This is discussing some non-notable stubs. In fact, any future discussion on the surname "Li" should be centralised here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 05:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- TortoiseWrath seems to have different ideas about what this merge discussion should include than you do.[1]. If we go by his interpretation, then this discussion does affect the "subpage". _dk (talk) 06:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- We certainly don't want overlapping discussions. The merge to location (here) is the default location, but doesn't have to be. Widefox; talk 07:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, these shouldn't be overlapping discussions. This is not about what to do about disambiguation as a whole, this is about three recently created non-notable stubs by a now blocked user. This merge should be a no-brainer. --Rob Sinden (talk) 07:53, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Make that five - Li (surname meaning "chestnut") and Li (surname meaning "whetstone") were created at the same time. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:12, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, these shouldn't be overlapping discussions. This is not about what to do about disambiguation as a whole, this is about three recently created non-notable stubs by a now blocked user. This merge should be a no-brainer. --Rob Sinden (talk) 07:53, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- We certainly don't want overlapping discussions. The merge to location (here) is the default location, but doesn't have to be. Widefox; talk 07:47, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- TortoiseWrath seems to have different ideas about what this merge discussion should include than you do.[1]. If we go by his interpretation, then this discussion does affect the "subpage". _dk (talk) 06:20, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed, Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit")#Summary of the dilemma has an interesting table of eight Li (surname)s. Can that table be incorporated into this article? We need a base Li (surname) article that gives a good overview of the big picture, to help totally unfamiliar non-Chinese speakers begin to get a grasp of these concepts character meaning, rank and tone. Wbm1058 (talk) 11:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion wasn't intended to include the wider pre-existing articles, just the merging of recently created nonsensical stubs by a recently-blocked user. It should have been a fait accompli, but my redirects were reverted. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:24, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, this is the place for this separate discussion which does not affect the "sub-page" Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit"). This is discussing some non-notable stubs. In fact, any future discussion on the surname "Li" should be centralised here. --Rob Sinden (talk) 05:37, 4 July 2013 (UTC)
- Merge all except Li (surname meaning "plum") to Li (surname) - Not notable by themselves and confusing to a non-Chinese reader to have so many pages on Li surnames. There must be enough of a consensus to merge, shouldn't someone be doing it by now? Hzh (talk) 19:00, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- This discussion is only for the merge (the others are irrelevant here), and since the majority of the contributors want to merge, and there has been silence for more than a week (over a month in fact) here, per guidelines, that is good enough to suggest a consensus on this topic. The other discussion will then only be simplified considerably.
- I only just recently came across the activity of the user Bmotbmot responsible for the creation of many surname pages (I suspect some of the IP editors traced to Korea are the same person as well), tried to fix some of his edits, but others are too terrible to of any use, too time-consuming to fix and not of enough significance to spend time fixing them, for example Si (surname), someone should just do a wholesale deletion if they can't be merged. Hzh (talk) 20:57, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
- Strong oppose! I think the only reasonable way is using Chinese character. I oppose any other alternatives.--刻意(Kèyì) 18:59, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
What would a merged article actually look like?
I thought it might help the discussion if people saw what a merged article might actually look like... so I have taken the liberty of drafting one in my user space.
- Please see: User talk:Blueboar/drafts - Li (surname)
Note... It isn't complete. I did not cut and pages all of the information that could go into it. I present my draft as a concept to be examined and discussed, and not as a final product.
I ask people not to edit my draft version... if you all find the concept and rough format acceptable, however, feel free to cut and paste it to another page... as a starter for a more complete article. Blueboar (talk) 15:49, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you. To me this looks like a good starting point. Some obvious edits will be needed - pronunciations are not always different for example. The merged article isn't overly long and it is informative. We should bear in mind, though, that if the article is extended, it may be appropriate to break out separate articles for one or more of the surnames. That will take us back to the question of how to disambiguate, but I still feel sure that with good faith we can find acceptable, if not perfect, solutions. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Looks good to me.--Wikimedes (talk) 17:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Random break for convenience
This has already been said, but maybe examples will help explain the difference between a WikiProject Anthroponymy surname article and a WikiProject Disambiguation dab article:
(1) WP Anthroponymy articles by family history:
(2) WP Disambiguation pages by random sound:
- Li, Li, Li, Li, Li, Li (6 unrelated surnames in late 20th Century Beijing pronunciation and pinyin system)
- Lee, Lee (2 unrelated family names one Irish, one Chinese)
Just as Burges, Burgiss, Burgis may change in Portuguese-Galician, Castillian, Occitan-Catalan etc, so Chinese surnames change by region, by time, and by competing romanization systems. See Unesco Journal of Information Science, Librarianship and Archives 1979 Page 178 "Thus, the family name Deng must not be confused with another family name, Teng. Wade-Giles system writes Deng as 'Teng', and Teng as 'Teng'. By omitting the aspiration mark (') as very often happened, the two family names were confused ..." etc. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:27, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Requested move
Li (surname) → List of surnames spelled Li –
- These are separate names that are spelled the same way in the most prevalent romanization style. It would be good for the title to acknowledge this fact.
- I propose that this become a set index article along the lines of Dodge Charger. From the linked set index article guideline: "A set index article is a list article about a set of items of a specific type that share the same (or similar) name". Also: "A set index article is meant for information as well as navigation: just like a normal list article, it can have metadata and extra information about each entry". This article seems to fit those criteria well. Wikimedes (talk) 04:22, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Support - although technically these are only List of surnames spelled Li in toneless English reduction of modern North Chinese pinyin, it's still an improvement from the present highly misleading title. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:43, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Support: An improvement over the status quo. --benlisquareT•C•E 10:06, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:UE. If they have the same romanization, they're effectively the same name in English. --BDD (talk) 17:42, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Assume that your name is Barry, and your sister's name is Valey; does that mean that the two of you have "effectively the same name" in Japanese? --benlisquareT•C•E 17:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- Probably. Would they be different on, for example, a Japanese census? --BDD (talk) 18:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- That's a difficult question, since gaijin aren't allowed to naturalize unless they adopt a Japanese name (even if they marry a Japanese spouse), and even so, they wouldn't be permitted to the household register, which would exclude them from the census. Today, there are millions of ethnic Koreans in Japan, born in Japan (for many generations) and without North/South Korean citizenship, who do not officially have Japanese citizenship, and are not allowed to vote, or apply for certain jobs. (It's a backwards system, but this is coming from the country that closes its hospitals on weekends, shuts down bank ATMs after hours, and rarely accepts credit cards in most stores.) --benlisquareT•C•E 11:19, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Probably. Would they be different on, for example, a Japanese census? --BDD (talk) 18:38, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- I guess it depends on what the article is about. If it were about the surname Li among American immigrants, for example, then it would be the same name. It appears that some of the Chinese-speaking editors want articles about surnames in China, in which case they would be different names. It seems to me that one of the big points of contention boils down to whether we allow articles (or sections) on Chinese surnames in China on the English Wikipedia or whether there should only be articles on surnames as they would, say, appear on a Census in a country where English is the only (de facto) official language. (Or looked at from another angle, whether an article about the surname called Li in the English speaking world should be allowed or if the fact that the name Li derives from several different surnames in China means that an article on the surname Li should be prohibited.)--Wikimedes (talk) 19:40, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- The majority of American immigrants wouldn't have the surname "Li", though. During the 1800s, Chinese immigration to the United States predominantly came from towns and villages that were Teochew and Taishanese speaking. Any influx of people named "Li" would have happened during the 1980s and 1990s, following one the opening up of the PRC (and hence, Mandarin-speaking northerners, for the first time after the Chinese Exclusion Act), two following the introduction of the Hanyu Pinyin system (any earlier, and it would have been "Lih", under older systems). In that case, since you make the "American immigrant" argument, why should Mr. Lee with his (relatively) notable surname be grouped together with Mr. Lei with his (relatively) notable surname on Wikipedia, within one article? Why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own separate surnames? --benlisquareT•C•E 11:09, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see any reason why they shouldn't have their own articles if they're notable and someone has actually taken the time to write up decent articles about them. I just read the articles and they look keepable, though if Lí (surname) is spelled Lai where it is most common, it should probably be named Lai. The Vietnamese surname Lê should probably have it's own article as well, instead of just a mention in Lí (surname), it being the fourth most common surname in Vietnam. It just takes someone with the interest, competence, and time to write it, which unfortunately rules out me. It would be nice to see a graph of how all these spellings and names relate. It would help to decide what the best way to present the information would be.--Wikimedes (talk) 06:54, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose per BDD. No objection to treating the page as a set index article, but that doesn't require a title change. (Otherwise it would have to be List of things called Dodge Charger, which it isn't.) Dohn joe (talk) 18:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
- BDD cited WP:UE which has nothing to say on the subject, the relevant guidelines for lists are at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists. As for the comparison of Chinese families to List of things called Dodge Charger, I expect to anyone interested in improving Wikipedia's anthroponymy articles that will not sound like a relevant or serious or helpful contribution. In ictu oculi (talk)
- Um, the nom introduced the example of Dodge Charger. I simply used that example to show why a set index article doesn't need to start with "List of...", and why the current title could serve perfectly well as the title of a set index article. A comment entirely relevant, serious, and helpful, if you please. Dohn joe (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- UE doesn't specifically talk about Chinese surnames in English, no, but it still applies. These surnames are the same in English, and we use English. --BDD (talk) 17:16, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- BDD cited WP:UE which has nothing to say on the subject, the relevant guidelines for lists are at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists. As for the comparison of Chinese families to List of things called Dodge Charger, I expect to anyone interested in improving Wikipedia's anthroponymy articles that will not sound like a relevant or serious or helpful contribution. In ictu oculi (talk)
- Oppose move per BDD, and also per the reasons I opposed a similar move at Talk:Xu (surname). - WPGA2345 - ☛ 05:31, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. I see no benefit to the longer title and no reason that various origins of the ENGLISH-language surname can't be discussed in the same article. older ≠ wiser 16:48, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
- As previous, no one supports all Springfields being discussed on one page. So someone please explain what then is the difference between a surname homonym and a city homonym? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- The Chinese Li surnames (黎, 李, 理, 里, 郦, 酈, 栗, 厉, 厲, 莉, 利) are often transcribed as 'Lee'. Which may bring in English surnames "Lee" of native British origin. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:02, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Not all of them, however. The most common one, 李, is commonly transcribed as "Lee" in the English language, due to historical immigration trends from certain dialect-speaking regions (and perhaps also from Korea, where it is either pronounced 리 ri, as in Ri Sol-ju or Lee Kwon-mu, or 이 i, as in Yi Sun-sin or Lee Jae-Dong, again depending on regional dialect). However, yes, there will be overlap with the English-origin name "Lee" (e.g. Tommy Lee Jones) as well. (One question though, is Leigh etymologically related to "Lee" by any chance, or are they of separate origin?) --benlisquareT•C•E 16:07, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- According to Lee (English surname) yes. According to houseofnames.com yes [2] [3]. According to the internet surname database yes [4] or maybe [5] (Lee is mentioned on the Leigh page, but Leigh is not mentioned on the Lee page). I found these sites in a Google search and can't speak to their reliability.--Wikimedes (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to see how another Wikipedia handles two English names that get merged in its language. --BDD (talk) 20:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I thought that was interesting as well, so I looked at "Jean", which has an entry in the Russian WP under "Джин". Interestingly, that article covers both the feminine name "Jean" and the masculine name "Gene". So very similar to what we do here - two names that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different etymologies in the native language are treated in one article because they have the same spelling in the foreign language. Dohn joe (talk) 20:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- How is this relevant to the RM Li (surname) → List of surnames spelled Li ? In ictu oculi (talk) 23:24, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- I thought that was interesting as well, so I looked at "Jean", which has an entry in the Russian WP under "Джин". Interestingly, that article covers both the feminine name "Jean" and the masculine name "Gene". So very similar to what we do here - two names that sound the same but are spelled differently and have different etymologies in the native language are treated in one article because they have the same spelling in the foreign language. Dohn joe (talk) 20:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- It would be interesting to see how another Wikipedia handles two English names that get merged in its language. --BDD (talk) 20:13, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is an overview of surnames that are all romanised to the same surname "Li" in English, and as a set index article does not require a change of name. Maybe now is the time to adopt User:Blueboar's attempt to tidy up the article (at User talk:Blueboar/drafts - Li (surname)). Some of the support !votes seem WP:POINTY in the wake of the recent AfD and seem to want to prolong the same argument. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:36, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- But they're not the same surname in English. In English, these surnames would be Lee, Lai, Lei, Ly and Lik. What on earth could you be talking about, Rob? --benlisquareT•C•E 14:15, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, they would/should be at Lee (surname), Lai (surname), Lei (surname), Ly (surname) and Lik (surname). --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:29, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Good that we agree on something. Start a WP:RM and move them. --benlisquareT•C•E 14:54, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- WP:TNT is the only solution I think. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Good that we agree on something. Start a WP:RM and move them. --benlisquareT•C•E 14:54, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- No, they would/should be at Lee (surname), Lai (surname), Lei (surname), Ly (surname) and Lik (surname). --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:29, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Feel free to use my draft at User talk:Blueboar/drafts - Li (surname) if will help. It was my attempt to bring order out of a chaotic topic. My goal was to come up with something that clearly explained the complexities of topic from both the oriental and the English perspective simultaneously. Keep our audience in mind... the average WP.en reader needs one single article that a) clearly illustrate how there are multiple oriental names that are written in English as "Li"... and (in that same article) b) illustrate that none of these names are consistently written in English as "Li" (each of these names can also be written as "Lee", "Ly" etc). To help our readers make sense out of all this complexity, I strongly feel that we need to present our discussion of these names in one single article... an article that will incorporate explanatory text, visual charts... and multiple lists of names. Blueboar (talk) 14:48, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that this single article, and much of your draft, is a useful collection of information for readers. I also think it's OK for separate articles to be spun out if 1) They contain enough content that a summary would fit more comfortably into this article (e.g. Li (plum)), 2) Are independently notable (again Li (plum)), and 3) Are of sufficient quality to rise above WP:TNT (I believe there are a few at this point). Wikipedia is a big place.--Wikimedes (talk) 21:32, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose - per other commentators above, I see no reason change this. Sure, the different names have different Chinese origins but in English they are all considered one surname. Furthermore, this could occur just as easily in English - for example Jonny, a name with a number of derivations, but all of which converge into one English and and are treated in one article. — Amakuru (talk) 18:15, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- User:Amakuru - "for example Jonny, a name with a number of derivations"? Are John and Jonathan really different names in Hebrew? Both are forms of Yohanan "YHWH gives" ...in contrast these family-names are usually Chinese warlord fiefs meaning totally different things, from different counties, with different character symbols and different origins. How is that comparable to Hebrew Yohanan/Yohanatan? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:07, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- @In ictu oculi: OK, point taken, but even if they were of different origins I would expect the name to reside under one umbrella. Without resorting too much to WP:OTHERSTUFF, I have found another example: Gill (name). This has two completely different etymologies, one from Europe and one from India. All this stuff can be explained within the relevant article, but that's not in itself a reason to split it. The point is that the majority of native English speakers would write (and indeed pronounce) names Li and Gill the same regardless of origin, and in my opinion would expect them to be found in one location. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 10:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- That's simply a dab list. We have a separate surname article Shergill for clan Gill in India. How is a dablist comparable with a surname article? Also like Li Gill is only one variant, why would English speakers expect a Scottish name article and an Indian name article to be together? In ictu oculi (talk) 00:28, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- @In ictu oculi: OK, point taken, but even if they were of different origins I would expect the name to reside under one umbrella. Without resorting too much to WP:OTHERSTUFF, I have found another example: Gill (name). This has two completely different etymologies, one from Europe and one from India. All this stuff can be explained within the relevant article, but that's not in itself a reason to split it. The point is that the majority of native English speakers would write (and indeed pronounce) names Li and Gill the same regardless of origin, and in my opinion would expect them to be found in one location. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 10:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- User:Amakuru - "for example Jonny, a name with a number of derivations"? Are John and Jonathan really different names in Hebrew? Both are forms of Yohanan "YHWH gives" ...in contrast these family-names are usually Chinese warlord fiefs meaning totally different things, from different counties, with different character symbols and different origins. How is that comparable to Hebrew Yohanan/Yohanatan? In ictu oculi (talk) 08:07, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
RFC regarding multiple Chinese surnames transliterated to the same surname in English
There have been various discussions over the last few months both on this talk page and at Talk:Li (surname meaning "profit") Archive 1, Archive 2 (and probably elsewhere, I can't remember!), resulting in a recent AfD, and subsequent overturning of the "merge" decision to "no censensus" at the deletion review. We seem to be at a stalemate situation, with one group of editors fully supporting a merge, and another dead against it, and to be frank, it has turned a little nasty. We really need wider views on this, but I hope any editor wishing to contribute here will take the time to read the previous history and fully take into account the points raised by both sides in the past. It may be a good idea for us editors who have been most active in the previous discussions to take minimal part in this one, in order to have some fresh opinions given, and to avoid the same spiral we have been going down. Points that should be addressed should consider whether there is a necessity to have separate articles, or whether a single umbrella article will do, and if multiple articles are deemed necessary, how these should be named with regard to the use of Chinese characters in the article titles. Thanks! --Rob Sinden (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- Merge all Springfield towns first - if it is confusing for users to have surnames Lee/Li, Li/Lik, Lei/Li or Lǐ (3rd tone) Lí (2nd tone) Lì (4th tone) and so on which are actually not the same family and not the same name (but can be made to look like wikt:homonyms by unhelpfully stripping tones and explanations from the title) then it must be even more confusing to have separate articles for towns with the same name which really are wikt:homonyms. So first merge all the Springfield articles, then worry about different Chinese families in the 100 Names which are totally unrelated. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:59, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- And so it deteriorates at the first comment. WP:POINTy. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:45, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- He's right that these names are separate topics (with different origins, histories, etc.), only to be bounded by being homonyms by having the same spelling (for which a merge into one article is wrong, other than a disambiguation or list page). En.wiki articles are made for the topic (in this case the surnames) and not specifically for the word (not saying that a word can't be the topic), just like how the situation applies to the "Springfield" articles. Thus, there's dab pages for homonyms. --Cold Season (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Do you mean like Springfield, the dab page that points to all individual "Springfield" articles (and redlinks), or like Springfield (toponym), the article that discusses the placename in general? Dohn joe (talk) 18:40, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- I mean both/either but particularly the toponym article. Unlike the Chinese warlord fiefs these Springfields are actually all one name in English with a common etymology, the Chinese warlord fiefs/family names aren't. And yet we still don't merge all Springfields into either the dab list or toponym umbrella. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- And so it deteriorates at the first comment. WP:POINTy. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:45, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep umbrella article at Li (surname). There really is no reason not to have an umbrella article at Li (surname). Right or wrong, very few English-language sources distinguish among the various derivations of "Li". Importantly, that means that when our readers encounter "Li" in the real world, they will have no way to distinguish among them, either. There is thus definitely a need for an article on the surname "Li". That article (this article) should (and does) then describe both the anglicized "Li" surname and the various Chinese surnames that are romanized as "Li". This article could use some restructuring, but I think it does a decent job of conveying that information.
As for subarticles, we're governed by our general rules on notability. If a particular surname has sufficient content, it should have a separate article, with a pointer to it from here. My !vote on naming them would be to use the Chinese character to disambiguate. As noted above, most English-language sources do not distinguish among the different "Li"s. Those that do, however, almost invariably use the Chinese character to do so, as opposed to using an English translation of the character, or referring to the placement in the 100 Names book. So, WP:UE somewhat paradoxically endorses the use of the Chinese character to disambiguate, as that is what the majority of English-language sources do themselves. Dohn joe (talk) 18:40, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- That is a good point from Dohn Joe, a good example is page 30 of Chinese American Names by Emma Woo Louie - the context, a discussion of cases where some Chinese families adapted their name-characters for reasons of persecution, e.g. due to an association with fallen warlords, much in the way that some Jewish families in the Austro-Hungarian Empire or Russia altered surnames to avoid discrimination. The interesting thing of page 30 is it discusses notability of two of the very "Lee/Li" family names that Rob Sinden wishes to merge, and other examples like Xu and Yee/Yu where apparently totally unrelated families are related. And, as per Dohn Joe and earlier Obi-wan Kenobi's point, the English book (like all others I have seen) uses both pronunciation and character to disambiguate. This is what all English sources on Chinese names do. If you look at the visual example given of Xu change to Yee/Yu it only makes sense with the illustration of the character. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:30, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Use the Chinese character to disambiguate , since the rest ultimately backtracks to the Chinese character. It's straightforward. Anything else is unfavorable and/or would make a inconsistent mess. Support on use of multiple and separate articles if they meet the criteria for inclusions. Homonyms does not equal the same topic as mentioned above, thus a merge is unsuitable. Neutral on use of umbrella articles , if they are treated as a list article for which they are (since they are divided by entries of different surnames, they are effectively treated so, whatever nitpicking one wants to have with the title). --Cold Season (talk) 23:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Keep this article. It is a useful collection of information for readers looking for any of the Lis. It clearly states in the first line that there are different Li surnames, and it is common to collect homonyms into set index articles. It is a good place to keep information on Li surnames that are not independently notable or do not yet have enough quality content written to have their own articles.
- Keep: Li (surname meaning "plum"), Li (surname meaning "profit"), and Li Surname (郦). These have enough interesting information for stand-alone articles and are well beyond WP:TNT. Li (profit) is short enough that I wouldn’t oppose merging. (Could someone please translate the bibliographic information in the citations in Li (plum) so that an English reader can see what the titles, authors, publishers, etc. are? By all means keep the original characters as well.)
- Merge into this article: Li Surname (理) and Li Surname (莉). Thanks to recent edits by in ictu oculi, these are no longer in need of TNT. However, I don’t see notability firmly established in the articles (though what constitutes notability for surnames hasn’t been well defined as far as I know) and they are short enough that they will fit easily into the parent article. (Again, could someone please translate the bibliographic information in the references.)
- WP:TNT: None of the Li articles now. If in the future, articles such as this [6] appear, and after a week’s deletion discussion they have not been improved to where they demonstrate basic notability and meet basic quality requirements for article space, delete them and save everyone months of wrangling.
- --Wikimedes (talk) 08:36, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Name articles using the most common transliterations when referring to the subjects of the articles. So if Li (profit) is about the Chinese surname (and not the word it transliterates to in English), and this Chinese surname is most common in Cantonese speaking areas, and the majority of sources (preferably in English) referring to the name in those areas transliterate it to “Lee”, the article should be named “Lee” + disambiguation. (I expect that this will be a high bar to demonstrate, and most names will default to standard Pinyin.) I’m neutral with respect to diacritics.
- Disambiguating articles/sections:
- Strongly support using meaning. This is the easiest to remember for English speakers who do not read Chinese. Names that translate to something offensive (none of the Li names I think) can be considered on an individual basis. The original meanings of some names have been lost, but I don’t see how this is relevant; use a current meaning. Or if another description would be better, let’s discuss it.
- Neutral on diacritics in addition to meaning. They tend to be ignored by people who don’t know what they mean (me for example), and are even hard to see, so I don’t see the harm. For the same reason, they’re not so good as a primary or sole disambiguator.
- Weak support using tone. “Li (nth tone)” would be clear to English and probably Chinese speakers, but not as recognizable as the meaning (to English speakers at least). It’s also ambiguous since there is more than one 3rd and 4th tone Li.
- Strongly oppose characters as the sole disambiguator. These are much more difficult for English speakers who do not read characters to keep track of than meanings or even tone descriptions.
- Oppose using characters as a secondary disambiguator in the title. According to Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English): “Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English.” There are a few exceptions, but a quick check shows that the all the following use Roman alphabet titles: the standard English keyboard characters (see the infobox at At sign, nearly all of the currency symbols (see same, ¥ is an exception, and I disagree that it should be), all the letters of the Greek alphabet, Arabic alphabet, Hebrew alphabet, Cyrillic script, and the few linked letter articles at Devanagari. A character or two in the title isn’t going to do any harm, but I don’t see a compelling need to ignore a rule.
- Support continuing to group names by tone in this article. It works well; don’t change it.
- --Wikimedes (talk) 08:36, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Using translated definitions as a disambiguator is a valid solution, however there is one problem that needs to be addressed: there are Chinese characters that exist, and have no meaning. The following are just a few examples to explain what I mean, and aren't specifically related to names: Cases include purely phonetic characters (e.g. 咖 and 啡, which mean nothing by themselves, but together become kafei, the English loanword for "coffee"), characters derived from Sanskrit Buddhist texts (e.g. 迦, 閦, 薩, 卐), and characters written by a wrinkly old sage with a hairy beard a billion years ago that nobody today knows the meaning of (e.g. 𠔻). Now, I don't know exactly how many Chinese names fall into these categories, however there is one that definitely comes to mind, namely Li Surname (郦) - 郦 was the name of an ancient country, but other than that, nobody knows what it actually means. How would you suggest this case, and similar potential cases, be solved? --benlisquareT•C•E 10:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Taking the last first, how about "Li (surname from the Li State)"? Or, if the second origin needs to be included in the title, how about "Li (Li State or Xirong surname)"?
- The others may be beyond the scope of this RFC. Hypothetically speaking, for the phonetic characters, their transliterations would serve as a title. Further disambiguation, if needed (ka would need it), would be descriptive, e.g. "ka (Chinese phonetic character)" or "ka (Chinese surname)". Are you anticipating articles about the Sanskrit or ancient characters or names that contain them? It usually is possible to describe something in English, even if a bit is lost in translation.--Wikimedes (talk) 03:16, 22 November 2013 (UTC)