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Bartley again |
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::::It appears that Enrique Camarena Salazar is above all noteworthy because of their death. For that reason it is not appropriate to create a separate article about their killing, in my opinion. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 03:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
::::It appears that Enrique Camarena Salazar is above all noteworthy because of their death. For that reason it is not appropriate to create a separate article about their killing, in my opinion. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 03:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::It's a fringe conspiracy theory with no supporting evidence, Two conspiracy theorists with self published books don't count as a reliable source, Also in the news story there's no evidence that the people interviewed were actually who they say they are, I'm not going to let you add conspiracy theories on this article. [[User:Jaydoggmarco|Jaydoggmarco]] ([[User talk:Jaydoggmarco|talk]]) 22:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
:::::It's a fringe conspiracy theory with no supporting evidence, Two conspiracy theorists with self published books don't count as a reliable source, Also in the news story there's no evidence that the people interviewed were actually who they say they are, I'm not going to let you add conspiracy theories on this article. [[User:Jaydoggmarco|Jaydoggmarco]] ([[User talk:Jaydoggmarco|talk]]) 22:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::I suggest a brief pause before doing major editing of this section of the article. Regarding the El Pais story, The "American television network" it mentions was the Fox Network. Here is a link to the story as [http://video.foxnews.com/v/2735820275001/a-look-at-dea-agent-kiki-camarenas-murder-/?#sp=show-clips broadcast]. Here is a link to a [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/10/us-intelligence-assets-reportedly-played-role-in-capture-dea-agent-in-mexico.html print version]. The DEA agents were, of course, Phil Jordan and Hector Berrellez. The "ex-CIA contractor" was Tosh Plumlee. It is hard to imagine a more dubious or non-RS source than Plumlee. [[User:Rgr09|Rgr09]] ([[User talk:Rgr09|talk]]) 13:06, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::::Hi {{u|Rgr09}} — I've edited with you at another controversial CIA-related article and respect the work you have done there — I don't know if you recall but you actually changed my mind in that case. Though I haven't fully agreed with you there at Operation Mockingbird your interest in the details of the case have improved the article and provided a strong basis for further article improvement in the future. I'm happy to pause here to discuss what should go into Camerena's article. |
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:::::::As a basis for discussion, is there any chance you have access to the University of Wisconsin 2015 book, "Eclipse of the Assassins: The CIA, Imperial Politics, and the Slaying of Mexican Journalist Manuel Buendía," by Russell H. Bartley and Sylvia Erickson Bartley? The book is also available online [https://muse.jhu.edu/book/42399] for some university libraries. The last chapter or epilogue of the book provides a long and scholarly account both of the Camerena killing and of the subsequent media stories and revelations. I'm happy to try to share if that's possible. Given your interest in this topic I'd rather you had access to the whole epilogue rather than snippets that I provide through quotations here on the talk page. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 16:05, 1 February 2019 (UTC) |
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::::::::{{u|Darouet}} Didn't mean to imply I have dibs on the article! Look forward to reading your comments here and/or article edits as they come. |
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::::::::I should have access to the Bartleys' book in a couple of weeks and I will be sure to read it carefully. |
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::::::::There have been poorly written and sourced stories making claims of CIA involvement in Camarena's death, hence my concerns. In addition to the 2013 Fox story involving Plumlee (seems nothing further came out of that), there is a book in Spanish by a Mexican writer named Esquivel. Many, many problems with this book. Others may have more to say on that. [[User:Rgr09|Rgr09]] ([[User talk:Rgr09|talk]]) 21:42, 2 February 2019 (UTC) |
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== Bartley book == |
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I have started looking at Russell Bartley's book "Eclipse of the Assassins," mentioned in the section above. It will take quite a while to go through it, but it is already worth noting that Bartley lists Tosh Plumlee as a source. Plumlee was also a source for the 2013 Fox news story on CIA involvement in the Camarena kidnapping and murder, and was very likely a source for J. Jesus Esquivel's Spanish language book on the Camarena case (La CIA, Camarena y Caro Quintero: La historia secreta). Unfortunately, Plumlee is not a reliable source. He is best known for his claim to have worked with Mafioso Johnny Roselli as part of a CIA attempt to stop the assassination of JFK (see [http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/Tosh_Plumlee.htm here]). I don't yet know how central he is to Bartley's book, but I would not be in a rush to cite "Eclipse" in the article. [[User:Rgr09|Rgr09]] ([[User talk:Rgr09|talk]]) 15:02, 13 February 2019 (UTC) |
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*{{ping|Rgr09}} I agree. What do you think about adding it in a "Further reading" section? Would that still be problematic? [[User:MX|MX]]<small> (</small><big>[[User talk:MX|<span style="color:darkred">'''✉'''</span>]]</big> • [[Special:Contributions/MX|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''✎'''</span>]]<small>)</small> 15:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC) |
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**{{ping|MX}}I have even stronger doubts about ''Eclipse'' today after reading more of it, including a citation of a deposition from Richard Brenneke, a central figure in the [[October Surprise conspiracy theory]] who among other problems falsely claimed to have worked for the CIA. I wouldn't put it anywhere in the articles on either Camarena or Buendía at this point. [[User:Rgr09|Rgr09]] ([[User talk:Rgr09|talk]]) 15:07, 14 February 2019 (UTC) |
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***{{ping|MX|Rgr09}} [[Richard J. Brenneke]] was cleared of the charge of perjury by a unanimous jury [https://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/06/us/man-cleared-of-lying-in-remarks-on-reagan-aides-and-52-hostages.html], who concluded that his statements about his relationship with the CIA were accurate. Furthermore the Bartley book does not rely strongly on Plumlee, and has received favorable reviews in academia. The description of the book as unreliable is thus based on a false assessment of the book's sources, ignores the book's reception and academic standing, and replaces the policies of [[WP:V]] and [[WP:RS]] with [[WP:OR]]. I don't agree with this approach. {{u|Rgr09}} if you want to exclude the Bartley source and associated academic sources on this basis suggest that we go to dispute resolution to resolve this issue. -[[User:Darouet|Darouet]] ([[User talk:Darouet|talk]]) 01:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC) |
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****{{ping|Darouet|MX}} I'm still reading Eclipse of the Assassins so I will not take up the talk page with a long discussion now. I think the book has many problems that are not addressed in the review you cited, which itself is by no means a strong endorsement of Bartley's claims. You should also not rely too much on the wikipedia article on Brenneke, which is in need of a careful rewrite. [[User:Rgr09|Rgr09]] ([[User talk:Rgr09|talk]]) 06:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:40, 25 February 2019
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Untitled
This article is prohibitionist propaganda, POV to the extreme. The man was sent on a fool's errand, killed, and now he's a propaganda poster. It need cleanup, and a more balanced point of view. If it weren't for drug prohibition, the man would not have been killed by some group of Al Capones like he was. (24.68.140.36 (talk) 22:04, 25 October 2008 (UTC))
It is a well-known fact to any LEO involved with Mexican drug activity that corruption exists, from the lowest rurale right up to the top, in Mexico's government. The U.S. government and U.S. Chamber of Commerce have willingly turned a blind eye to this in their greed for profits at the expense of both the American and Mexican citizens. People like Enrique Camarena, Ignacio Ramos and Jose Campean pay the price for that greed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.104.98 (talk) 17:56, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
Where was he born? Why no one mentions the book "Desperados" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Galindes (talk • contribs) 10:21, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
--> Update information about this entry. According to recent data, the DEA was responsible for the murder of Camarena (http://www.proceso.com.mx/?p=355283) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.82.178.50 (talk) 07:48, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
Conspiracy Theories
Can we have some argument to delete these conspiracy theory claims? I followed the link and there just aint nothing to prove any of what it claims, and to put a misbegotten and ridiculous conspiracy theory on the same level as fact seems too much relativism even for wikipedia... and, how do I put this? the unstable comments by the people up above lead me to think they're the ones responsible for this hijacking
thanks - Eli
discrepancies
this article states that: "On 1984, acting on information by Camarena, 450 Mexican soldiers backed by helicopters destroyed a 1000-hectere marijuana plantation known as 'Rancho Búfalo', where more than 3,000 farmers worked these fields,[1] the annual production which was later valued at $8 billion"
how ever, another one thats talking about Miguel Ángel Félix Gallardo, person who was running Rancho Búfalo, states that "An undercover agent from the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, Enrique Camarena managed to infiltrate deep into the drug trafficking organization and had become close to Félix Gallardo. On 1984, acting on information by Camarena, 450 Mexican soldiers backed by helicopters destroyed a 1000-hectere marijuana plantation known as 'Rancho Búfalo', where more than 10,000 farmers worked these fields, the annual production which was later valued at $8 billion."
So witch is it 3,000 or 10,000 theres a huge difference —Preceding unsigned comment added by Uku1234 (talk • contribs) 19:31, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
- Good catch. I edited both articles to read: "where thousands of farmers worked these fields..."
Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk)
The golf tournament held in honor of Mr. Camarena is held in Miami, not Fresno. There is a tournament in Fresno affiliated with the Camarena Health Center, however that has nothing to do with this individual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.29.4.205 (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
- Hello. Do you have a source for that? Maybe we can fix the info in the article. Cheers. ComputerJA (talk) 16:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
Nickname
references indicate his nickname was kiki, not kike, regardless of whether this is a feminine name in spanish. any evidence that his nickname was not kiki should be presented first. And, to anyone completely ignorant of this word, kike is a slur against jews, so there better be a good reason (ie better references than the DEA) for replacing this nickname. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
Enrique Camarena was not a Jew, so I am sure you realize that his nickname was used in a completely different context. Kike is the nickname used for the name Enrique and is a very common nickname in Latin America. Some references to Enrique's nickname being Kike:
Next are some references specific to DEA agent Enrique Camarena Salazar being nicknamed Kike:
Cheers, --BatteryIncluded (talk) 01:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
- The only thing that you (user MDEVER802) "established" is that you did not read nor used the talk page, and that political correctness in USA prompted the nickname change, as shown by Google hits. Following this, and WP:COMMONNAME I will allow your edit - rather performed as a bully. Please discuss changes to articles when they are contested, and void Wikipedia:Don't be a dick. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:35, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- I removed some no longer valid and poor references from the above links. That being said, I think you amply made your case, Enrique's nickname in Spanish was "Kike". I think that both nickname variants should be displayed, that because this is the English Wikipedia, we should list the English version of his name and also list the Spanish version for completeness. Banaticus (talk) 20:55, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
- Please do not edit other people's posts other than format. The point is not who is right (we all are) but that this is the English language wikipedia and it has preference for using English language references, and per WP:COMMONNAME we should use the "most common name" in English. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk)
- Right, which is why the lead-in sentence uses his English nickname. For completeness, however, we should list both, just so this little edit war doesn't happen again. By the way, just to clarify, are you saying that you objected to my removal of dead links and urbandictionary.com as good references in your post? If so, I apologize. I feel that my edit make your post stronger, however, because it basically only shows good valid references. As I said, you amply made your point. :) Banaticus (talk) 21:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
For what it's worth...another legacy
A memorial statue of Enrique Camarena sits in the lobby of the public library in Vallejo, California. Why Vallejo?
Georgejdorner (talk) 22:00, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- Because a national foundation was created in his honor. That planned statue is at the courthouse in Vallejo: [14]. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 22:05, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Source
- http://books.google.com/books?id=qbjZAAAAMAAJ&q=Kiki+Camarena&dq=Kiki+Camarena&hl=en&ei=BGphTseqKczUgAevxdCWAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CEQQ6AEwAg
- Gilbert, James N. Criminal Investigation: Essays and Cases. Merrill, 1990. ISBN 0675212006, 9780675212007
WhisperToMe (talk) 23:45, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Reference
John McPhee "The Gravel Page." The New Yorker 71:46 (29 January 1996), 44ff. McPhee (in one of 3 stories about forensic geology) describes the FBI forensic geologist's work that proved that Camarena's body was not unearthed at the place that the Mexican Federal Police announced when they produced the body. The geologist's ability to locate the actual original burial site (a dozens and dozens of miles away) by analyzing soil clinging to the body for it's mineral content and unique characteristics is fascinating and compelling, and the Police had not counted on this. The evidence, presented by the FBI geologist in court, lead directly to the convictions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RhyoliteTopaz (talk • contribs) 05:02, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Article name change
Is there any consensus on renaming the article to his given name? It should be enough to mention it (his alleged nickname) in the lede, especially given concerns above concerning the arguably (not that Id be inclined to do so - incidentally the 'spanish version' is a slur in English, to the best of my knowledge) borderline slur in addition to use of diminutive for a murder victim apparently because the gentleman had a spanish sounding name, etc. I'm just not convinced wikipedia is a venue for adding insult to injury, arguably unless someones going to argue this was his cover story for witness protection. We all have our motivations but I'm not seeing any reasonable person needs to see this devolve to the point of childishness. I'd also think Giulio Regeni warrants a mention, if not Wayno Simmons. As well as the other agent(s) relatively recently. What do you think. I'd also think Micheles glorification of violence is relevant at some point, even if it only illustrates the mentality which causes these sorts of problems at the highest levels. I've had all sorts of runins with these guys myself but even I'm unconvinced we have to keep kicking them even after they're dead. Incidentally, what was the deal they refused to name the training center after him but put his name on a golf competition instead? Seriously. Personally I think this guy was set up or scapegoated, if not the witness protection mentioned above. Plus with this 'the CIA did it' I'd think we'd be looking at someone like Wayne Simmons. If he's who I think he is, he's nothing nice when it comes to things like torture. 55378008a (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
External links modified
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Vietnam service
Although Camarena served in the Marines during the Vietnam War era, no reliable sources found as of yet state that he actually served in Vietnam during the war. Accordingly, Category:American military personnel of the Vietnam War was removed from the article. Semper Fi! FieldMarine (talk) 11:54, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
CIA and Camarena killing
I've found a host of high-quality academic sources that discuss the role of the CIA in Camarena's killing in detail. The section that we have on this topic should not be a single article from El País, even if that is Spain's flagship newspaper. Here, I'm posting a paragraph from a review of a number of books on the topic. The review is titled "Spies, Assassins, and Statesmen in Mexico’s Cold War", is published in Revista Europea de Estudios Latinoamericanos y del Caribe (Amsterdam Iss. 103, Jan/Jun 2017, pp.143-155) and is written by professor Wil Pansters, head of the Department of Social Sciences of University College Utrecht.
In May 1984, the influential journalist and columnist Manuel Buendía was brutally shot in the back in the centre of Mexico City... In a painstaking investigative process, the authors along with other journalists in Mexico and the U.S. became convinced that the Buendía and Camarena killings were linked, and much of the book is about the Bartleys trying to put the different pieces together. The most important element is that the interests behind both killings go beyond criminal interests and reach into the political domains on both sides of the border. In the mid-1980s, Mexico's one party regime confronted serious challenges, while the Reagan administration was deeply involved in a Cold War battle against the Sandinista government in Nicaragua. Buendía and DEA agent Camarena had each separately discovered that the CIA was running a dark network, which involved Mexican and Central American drug traffickers that imported cocaine into the U.S. and facilitated the movement of arms to the contras. Nicaraguan contras were trained at a Mexican ranch owned by one of the country's most notorious capos. CIA pilots flew many of the planes. The DFS functioned as the go-between, and hence involved the Ministry of the Interior. The Mexican army provided the necessary protection, and got a bite of the pie. Since the overriding concern of the CIA was the anti-Sandinista project, it trumped the DEA's task of combating drug trafficking, and covertly incorporated (or pressured) parts of the Mexican state into subservience. Buendía had found out about the CIA-contra-drugsDFS connection, which seriously questioned Mexican sovereignty, while Camarena learned that the CIA had infiltrated the DEA and sabotaged its work so as to interfere with the clandestine contra-DFS-traffickers network. They knew too much and were eliminated on the orders of the U.S. with Mexican complicity. Later official investigations attempted to limit criminal responsibility to the dirty connections between drug traffickers, secret agents and corrupt police, leaving out the (geo)political ramifications.
The review ends up quoting from "Eclipse of the Assassins. The CIA, Imperial Politics, and the Slaying of Mexican Journalist Manuel Buendía," by Russell H. Bartley and Sylvia Erickson Bartley. University of Wisconsin Press, 2015. That book concludes,
The preponderance of evidence... persuades us beyond any reasonable doubt that Manuel Buendía was slain on behalf of the United States because of what he had learned about U.S.-Mexico collusion with narcotics traffickers, international arms dealers, and other governments in support of Reagan administration efforts to overthrow the Sandinista government of Nicaragua. Camarena was... killed for the same reason.
I'll work to expand this section in the coming weeks. -Darouet (talk) 21:16, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Darouet: Great, thanks for taking on this task. Would you be interested in creating a separate article about this? I feel that if we expand this section, we'll give undue weight to this point of view (POV). The POV is not considered part of the mainstream narrative. MX (✉ • ✎) 21:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Jaydoggmarco and Darouet: First off, I appreciate your interest in this article. Hopefully we can all work together to improve it. I've been wanting to get to it for years, but now that the Narcos: Mexico series was released, I decided to wait since I know a lot of old information would surface again.
- Thanks MX for your note. I should point out that Jaydoggmarco hasn't actually contributed to this conversation and has instead repeatedly removed sourced content, describing it as "fringe" with no justification or sources to support that claim.
- It appears that Enrique Camarena Salazar is above all noteworthy because of their death. For that reason it is not appropriate to create a separate article about their killing, in my opinion. -Darouet (talk) 03:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- It's a fringe conspiracy theory with no supporting evidence, Two conspiracy theorists with self published books don't count as a reliable source, Also in the news story there's no evidence that the people interviewed were actually who they say they are, I'm not going to let you add conspiracy theories on this article. Jaydoggmarco (talk) 22:38, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- It appears that Enrique Camarena Salazar is above all noteworthy because of their death. For that reason it is not appropriate to create a separate article about their killing, in my opinion. -Darouet (talk) 03:26, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- I suggest a brief pause before doing major editing of this section of the article. Regarding the El Pais story, The "American television network" it mentions was the Fox Network. Here is a link to the story as broadcast. Here is a link to a print version. The DEA agents were, of course, Phil Jordan and Hector Berrellez. The "ex-CIA contractor" was Tosh Plumlee. It is hard to imagine a more dubious or non-RS source than Plumlee. Rgr09 (talk) 13:06, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Hi Rgr09 — I've edited with you at another controversial CIA-related article and respect the work you have done there — I don't know if you recall but you actually changed my mind in that case. Though I haven't fully agreed with you there at Operation Mockingbird your interest in the details of the case have improved the article and provided a strong basis for further article improvement in the future. I'm happy to pause here to discuss what should go into Camerena's article.
- As a basis for discussion, is there any chance you have access to the University of Wisconsin 2015 book, "Eclipse of the Assassins: The CIA, Imperial Politics, and the Slaying of Mexican Journalist Manuel Buendía," by Russell H. Bartley and Sylvia Erickson Bartley? The book is also available online [15] for some university libraries. The last chapter or epilogue of the book provides a long and scholarly account both of the Camerena killing and of the subsequent media stories and revelations. I'm happy to try to share if that's possible. Given your interest in this topic I'd rather you had access to the whole epilogue rather than snippets that I provide through quotations here on the talk page. -Darouet (talk) 16:05, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- Darouet Didn't mean to imply I have dibs on the article! Look forward to reading your comments here and/or article edits as they come.
- I should have access to the Bartleys' book in a couple of weeks and I will be sure to read it carefully.
- There have been poorly written and sourced stories making claims of CIA involvement in Camarena's death, hence my concerns. In addition to the 2013 Fox story involving Plumlee (seems nothing further came out of that), there is a book in Spanish by a Mexican writer named Esquivel. Many, many problems with this book. Others may have more to say on that. Rgr09 (talk) 21:42, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
Bartley book
I have started looking at Russell Bartley's book "Eclipse of the Assassins," mentioned in the section above. It will take quite a while to go through it, but it is already worth noting that Bartley lists Tosh Plumlee as a source. Plumlee was also a source for the 2013 Fox news story on CIA involvement in the Camarena kidnapping and murder, and was very likely a source for J. Jesus Esquivel's Spanish language book on the Camarena case (La CIA, Camarena y Caro Quintero: La historia secreta). Unfortunately, Plumlee is not a reliable source. He is best known for his claim to have worked with Mafioso Johnny Roselli as part of a CIA attempt to stop the assassination of JFK (see here). I don't yet know how central he is to Bartley's book, but I would not be in a rush to cite "Eclipse" in the article. Rgr09 (talk) 15:02, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Rgr09: I agree. What do you think about adding it in a "Further reading" section? Would that still be problematic? MX (✉ • ✎) 15:35, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
- @MX:I have even stronger doubts about Eclipse today after reading more of it, including a citation of a deposition from Richard Brenneke, a central figure in the October Surprise conspiracy theory who among other problems falsely claimed to have worked for the CIA. I wouldn't put it anywhere in the articles on either Camarena or Buendía at this point. Rgr09 (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
- @MX and Rgr09: Richard J. Brenneke was cleared of the charge of perjury by a unanimous jury [16], who concluded that his statements about his relationship with the CIA were accurate. Furthermore the Bartley book does not rely strongly on Plumlee, and has received favorable reviews in academia. The description of the book as unreliable is thus based on a false assessment of the book's sources, ignores the book's reception and academic standing, and replaces the policies of WP:V and WP:RS with WP:OR. I don't agree with this approach. Rgr09 if you want to exclude the Bartley source and associated academic sources on this basis suggest that we go to dispute resolution to resolve this issue. -Darouet (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Darouet and MX: I'm still reading Eclipse of the Assassins so I will not take up the talk page with a long discussion now. I think the book has many problems that are not addressed in the review you cited, which itself is by no means a strong endorsement of Bartley's claims. You should also not rely too much on the wikipedia article on Brenneke, which is in need of a careful rewrite. Rgr09 (talk) 06:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @MX and Rgr09: Richard J. Brenneke was cleared of the charge of perjury by a unanimous jury [16], who concluded that his statements about his relationship with the CIA were accurate. Furthermore the Bartley book does not rely strongly on Plumlee, and has received favorable reviews in academia. The description of the book as unreliable is thus based on a false assessment of the book's sources, ignores the book's reception and academic standing, and replaces the policies of WP:V and WP:RS with WP:OR. I don't agree with this approach. Rgr09 if you want to exclude the Bartley source and associated academic sources on this basis suggest that we go to dispute resolution to resolve this issue. -Darouet (talk) 01:10, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @MX:I have even stronger doubts about Eclipse today after reading more of it, including a citation of a deposition from Richard Brenneke, a central figure in the October Surprise conspiracy theory who among other problems falsely claimed to have worked for the CIA. I wouldn't put it anywhere in the articles on either Camarena or Buendía at this point. Rgr09 (talk) 15:07, 14 February 2019 (UTC)