m rv, someone understandably restored this article as a GA (not Homestarmy nor myself) which I believe is why Homestarmy replace the template but forgot to remove the corresponding cat. |
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The above commentary was inserted '''[by me]''' using the GA delisting template, which for some reason doesn't seem to require a signature. — [[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] 14:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC) |
The above commentary was inserted '''[by me]''' using the GA delisting template, which for some reason doesn't seem to require a signature. — [[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] 14:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC) |
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:I think this is all Raphaels, his was the last name I saw in the contrib summary :/. [[User:Homestarmy|Homestarmy]] 14:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC) |
:I think this is all Raphaels, his was the last name I saw in the contrib summary :/. [[User:Homestarmy|Homestarmy]] 14:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC) |
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no as stated it was [[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] [[User:Gnangarra|Gnangarra]] |
no as stated it was [[User:Jeremygbyrne|JEREMY]] [[User:Gnangarra|Gnangarra]] |
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== Balanced article? Then write it == |
== Balanced article? Then write it == |
Revision as of 08:29, 30 June 2006
{{FAC}}
should be substituted at the top of the article talk page
This is not the appropriate place for a general philosophical discussion about Islam, freedom of speech, terrorism, religious tolerance, etc. Not only is this talk page not the right place for it, Wikipedia is not the right place for it. Here, we are polite, thoughtful, smart, geeky people, trying only to do something which is undoubtably good in the world: write and give away a free encyclopedia.
Now, there are legitimate questions on both sides regarding this particular article, and I want to encourage a discussion of that. But please, do it with the very strong assumption of good faith on all parties to the discussion, and stick directly and purely to the editorial question at hand, rather than a general philosophical debate.
--Jimbo Wales 00:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)- Please divert comments having to do with the timeline of the incidents to Talk:Timeline_of_the_Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy.
- Please divert comments having to do with international reactions to Talk:International reactions to the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy.
- Please divert comments having to do with various opinions on the controversy to Talk:Opinions on the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy.
- Please divert comments having to do with any aspect of displaying the cartoon images to Talk:Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy/Arguments/Image-Display.
Any irrelevant discussions can be removed without notice. AucamanTalk 00:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
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Poll 1, 2, 3 & 4 Results
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Arguments regarding all aspects of Cartoons Display |
GA
I promoted this last time.. it hasn't changed. Nominate for FAC soon please. Highway Rainbow Sneakers 20:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yay! :D Homestarmy 22:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because it seriously violates WP:NPOV.
According to Wikipedia:Good_articles/Disputes I've still got veto-power, which I'm using hereby.
To follow the neutral point of view policy, the article would need to fairly present a "Muslim points of view":
- Instead of displaying the aniconistic Muslim tradition as baseless prohibition, the article should explain why (according to Muslim scholars) Islam generally forbids any pictorial representation of Muhammad.
- Why do we let BBC journalists explain what insults Muslims instead of presenting Muslim (authorities) views on their anti-cartoon stance?
- Instead of restricting on reporting the legislation regarding an insult on Muhammad, the article should at least mention the issue of advocating religious hatred by insulting a prophet.
- The chapter "Islamism and xenophobia" misses to present the views of Multiculturalism proponents.
Furthermore I fail to see the coherence between Ahmadinejads Holocaust denial and the JP cartoon controversy, but maybe its still more relevant than the 700 years old Muhammad image. Raphael1 01:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Those madrassa POVs You (or that emabassy next door?) are advocating can hardly be considered NPOV ... but if you are worried about old material being irrelevant because of its age, think about the quran and the hadiths. They are really getting old by now! :-D (And if you missed the Iranian cartoon contest, you must have been sleeping in class.)
- BBC interviews real muslims in the real world having realistic points of view, and therefore we quote the BBC. The random ramblings of extremist religious zealots and self proclaimed leaders are entertaining, but maybe not so very important.
- The Multiculturalist proponents went out of fashion when the boycotts of 3rd party dairy farmers started. But it could very well be an interresting study! There is a lot of political vote-fishing nonsense and deception buried there ...
- MX44 13:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- To achieve NPOV the "madrassa" POV, as you call it, needs to be fairly presented just as well as the "Jyllands-Posten/freedom of speech" POV is presented right now. Old material can be relevant as well. I.e. that 700 years old image is relevant for Depictions of Muhammad, but it can hardly be relevant for illustrating Islams contemporary aniconism.
- Where is the coherence between Ahmadinejads Holocaust denial and the Iranian newspapers (Hamshahri) cartoon contest?
- I don't want to present the views of extremist religious zealots, but the views of popular accredited religious leaders.
- Whether favouring Multiculturalism is modern or not is irrelevant. If we present the views of those who are disillusioned with multiculturalism, we need to fairly present the views of Multiculturalism proponents as well to reach NPOV. Raphael1 15:43, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- We would also need to represent the views expressed in "Muhammed, You better believe it ..."
- The Hamshari Contest was in response to the JP cartoons.
- Popular? You mean like this?
- They were disillusioned ...
- MX44 16:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've just found a statement regarding the cartoons signed by many Muslim leaders.[1] It's not even listed in external references let alone is their view presented in the article text. Raphael1 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- There is room left in the 'Muslim Views' section. Please add your link. The more, the merrier ...MX44 19:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- One cannot correct the bias of this article by merely adding a link to the External links section. Raphael1 19:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- To those taking extreme point of views, the neutral sanity of this article appears to be far off. MX44 19:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Why are the views of popular religious leaders around the world more extreme, than the views of that Danish newspaper? Do you see it that way, because you are biased towards one side of this controversy? Raphael1 12:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- Biased? If you are looking for bias, try this article. MX44 14:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- The link you added to the article (apart from being rejected in a recent poll) is not only biased, but wrong too: "Until people stop, in Allah's name, stoning woman to death, killing homosexuals, cutting the hands off children stealing food to survive, flying passenger planes into skyscrapers, car-bombing innocent people, forcing their religious convictions onto others, and other such atrocities, and until Muslims loudly and clearly reject and condemn the violence perpetrated by those who have hijacked and perverted their religion, the likelihood of cartoonists depicting Muhammad as a gentle, olive-branch carrying dove is not particularly high." Muslims around the world indeed loudly and clearly reject and condemn the violence perpetrated by those who have hijacked and perverted their religion, but it seems, that Clinton Fein didn't care to pay attention to that. Raphael1 14:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- It was decided the link was not fit as a source for the images. As a freestanding opinion piece by CF it has its merits. Netscott?
- When you say that muslims loud and clearly condemns violence, does this include: We will not accept less than severing the heads of those responsible," one preacher at Al Omari mosque in Gaza told worshipers during Friday Prayer, according to Reuters. ... That's pretty loud. And clear! MX44 16:01, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I consider it very unfortunate, that you rather listen to a preacher in war-torn Gaza than to 42 Muslim clerics who reject "attacking foreign embassies or innocent people and other targets"[2] or 72 Muslim clerics who affirmed the Commitment to Global Peace. Raphael1 23:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- That certain clerics after the fact realizes that violence as a response to criticism of violence is counter productive, does not mean the events never took place or that other clerics are not still holding much more radical point of views. Both positions are part of the greater picture, the violent position being so well known, it even forms the basis of internal Muslim jokes. MX44 06:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, that both positions are part of the greater picture, therefore I wonder why only one of those positions gets displayed in the article.Raphael1 08:26, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- That the silent majority of the Muslims remained silent regarding the cartoons is a non-event. You want to have a mention of: Those who couldn't be bothered, did not bother ... Hey, after all the title suggests that we are talking about a controversy. Earlier attempts of defining more narrowly exactly what groupations were causing the riots, have been blocked. I am not sure that was the wisest thing to do, since it appears that this strategy of victimizing ALL Muslims have played in the hands of neo-Nazi groupations. Letters like this is now in circulation. But that could change. Recently the riots in Afghanistan have been identified to be ignited by a small group of Pakistani workers employed by one Saudi entepreneur ... And the theory of the Syrian governments involvement in the embassy torchings is already in place. MX44 09:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- We are reporting other non-events as well, such as "Sunni Muslims allowed depictions of Muhammad 700 years ago", "any insult to Muhammad warrants death according to Salafis" or "disillusionment with multiculturalism is widespread in Denmark" or voicing the views of critics of political correctness. OTOH we do not report for example, that those cartoons and the following events damaged the interfaith dialog and (as you've found) played in the hands of neo-Nazi groupations. Raphael1 09:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- I said that the self-pittying, pretentious (self-)victimisation of ALL Muslims (even those who do not wish to participate) is playing in the hands of the Nazis. (These events are taking place right now, as we speak, and I have no idea how they will evolve.) The death threats actually happened, so that is not a non-event. I suppose you meant to say, that you wish it was ... And I do not understand why you would want to strike the reference to the Salafis here? More moderate Muslims would certainly like to keep some distance, as also evidenced by the declarations you yourself is pointing to. Or are you trying to say that these declarations are not to be fully trusted? Now, that would be a bit odd .. MX44 09:59, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know, why you assume a self-victimisation of Muslims. Even the JP-newspaper apologized for indisputably offending many Muslims. Furthermore I never denied that death threats happened. But how Salafis interpret the Shariah is obviously a non-event, which you suggested are not worth mentioning. Even if we mention the Salafis, why don't we mention other Muslim groups too, who contacted the UN in order to criminalize any insult not only to Muhammad but all revered prophetic figures (incl. Jesus and Moses). Raphael1 12:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- You would like to hide the Salafi POV being an exception? You would like it to appear as if chopping heads of editors playing with crayons is a natural response, that no sane Muslim should or would object to? Me thinks you are confused, perhaps looking for a united Muslim POV which simply does not exist. MX44 13:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- It seems to me, that you deliberately misinterpret my text. Of course I know, that there is no united Muslim POV, therefore I wonder why the article focuses on displaying a lunatic fringe POV.Raphael1 09:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, is that so ... You are now saying that displaying more than one POV is bad because at least one of those views is a bit off, on the far side. In the same sentence you also admit that there is not a unified single POV to focus on. Now who is it then that you want to represent? I suppose it can not be those Danish imams who are joking about sending suicide-bombers along to blow up parliament, since, as I understand it, you do not like people disrespectfully joking about violence and Islam? OTOH, those are the very imams who were complaining about the JP cartoons in the first place. They are representing a fringe minority POV, so the fringe POV stays! MX44 11:12, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- No, I am not saying, that displaying more than one POV is bad. I am saying, that displaying only one fringe minority POV is bad. I plead for adding a fair display of a more generally accepted Muslim POV.Raphael1 21:37, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- I added OIC's POV on death-penalty for cartoonists to Prohibition to insult Muhammad, along with a quote: "This is not a joke to go and say kill this and that. This is a very serious matter and nobody has the authority to issue a ruling to kill people." That should balance out the hardliners notion of sharia somewhat. MX44 05:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Is there a special reason, why you've chosen to quote this particular statement of Prof. Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu? How about these quotes: "The blasphemous cartoons published by the Danish Jylland-Posten newspaper clearly meant to demonize Islam and its Prophet, to insult its values and principles and to incite animosity and hatred to the adherent of this religion in a way to provoke serious prejudices against them, thus endangering their safety and demeaning them. This is the real issue that the authors of this outrage tried to obscure under the guise of freedom of expression. Maybe the reasons behind the cartoons could be better understood if we remember that the Danish author Jan Hjarno said in a recent book that “there is a tendency among many politicians and media circles to make Islam the explanation of all problems”" [3] And why don't we mention the visit of the Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Bernard Bot, to Prof. Ihsanoglu, where he stated, that "the issue was not a matter of challenging the freedom of speech or that of the press in the West. It was rather that the un-dignifying cartoons had injured the feelings of Muslims as they caused prejudice to their beliefs, values, and most sacred symbols, which points to the need to have a media code of conduct established such as to emphasize that freedom must be founded on the spirit of responsibility and that the notion of freedom of speech must be correlated with that of respect for beliefs, religions and sanctities."[4] Raphael1 11:13, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- No other reason than that I thought he meant what he said at the time. But after reading the above hateful statements, it is pretty clear that he must have later changed his mind. MX44 12:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- What is it, you consider hateful in those statements? Raphael1 12:35, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- He is propagandizing for a reasoning behind the drawings which never existed. He is denying any problem with the radical Islamist violence the cartoons commented on, thus legalizing the violence, to the point of provoking it to happen. MX44 12:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- The OIC is certainly not denying radical Islamist violence, as they repeatedly "strongly condemned the perpetrators of these heinous terrorist crimes, who pretend to act in the name of Islam or under any other pretext." and stated, that "Islam is innocent of all forms of terrorism which involve the murder of innocent people whose killing is forbidden by Islam, and rejects any attempts to link Islam and Muslims to terrorism because the latter has no relation whatsoever with religions, civilizations, or nationalities." [5] Therefore your claim, that the OIC would legalize the violence is wrong. Raphael1 13:09, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- If I am wrong, and that may be so, then perhaps they should start looking for some other speach-writer, who can better reflect what they intend to get across. MX44 13:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe it's not due to the speach-writer but the reader, who considers the cartoons to be comments on radical Islamist violence, but overlooks that they incite animosity to the majority of peaceful adherents of Islam. Raphael1 13:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- ... and therefore we should write some flaming speaches, calling for arms of all Muslims and prove that Islam really is as violent as we would like to communicate that it is not? Throw in some blatant lies about the intentions of Rose et al for good measure and credibility? Yah, that should work! MX44 14:11, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Who is calling for arms? Do you think, that Jan Hjarno from the Danish Centre for Migration and Ethnic Studies was lying, when he wrote, that "there is a tendency among many politicians and media circles to make Islam the explanation of all problems"? Raphael1 11:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ihsanoglu is calling for arms. He is using the Goebbels style of propaganda to implant hatred within the Muslim community towards JP, giving Zawahiri (and others) a free ride to extend this to the whole nation.
- Hjarno never postulated that there do not exist any problems with Islam. Once again Ihsanoglu is using manipulative, deceptive wording to victimize the Muslims, this time generalizing and extending the target to: "many politicians and media circles." MX44 12:41, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- I guess that you are aware, that Goebbels used stereotypes to propagandize hatred towards a religious group. If any Goebbels rhetoric can therefore be compared to the cartoons published by JP. Furthermore the words "many politicians and media circles" are Hjarnos words, which get cited by Ihsanoglu. Raphael1 16:19, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Raphael, You are a good soldier! But so where the heroic Hitler-Jugend defending Berlin against the Communists ... It is my firm belief that you are truely trying to fight a good cause, but the quote we are dissecting here is not going in to the article. It would be counter-productive to showing that there exist sanity within Islam. MX44 08:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- There's a connection between the Hamshari Contest and the JP cartoons, but where is the connection between Ahmadinejads Holocaust denial and the Hamshari contest? Raphael1 16:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Holocaust denial is wrong. He is pointing to (minor?) excaggerations by Zionist zealots, putting the whole affair under dispute. This is (deliberately?) misunderstood in the West. I for one interprete his actions not unlike those of a medieval 'Joker', challenging the kings of this world (George W?), setting up a magnifying mirror. His ultimate agenda is that Israel was set up under false premises. If you like, we can discuss why the Jews were not simply given back their properties in, say Austria? I bet that inquiring minds in Palestine would also like to know. MX44 19:08, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- I wouldn't mind discussing that issue, if it were not off-topic here. (See: Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines#What_talk_pages_may_be_used_for) You still haven't explained, what Ahmadinejads remarks on the Holocaust have to do with this article. Raphael1 19:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- You are not listening. Thanx for playing. Insert coin! MX44 19:34, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes I am listening, and I agree that Ahmadinejads remarks from October 2005 are relevant regarding world politics, but I see no relevant connection to the following cartoon controversy. We might as well discuss the Iraq war in this article. Raphael1 12:44, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- If we want to include a quote from Ahmadinejad, how about including this statement instead, since it directly refers to the cartoons: "Now in the West insulting the prophet is allowed, but questioning the Holocaust is considered a crime. We ask, why do you insult the prophet? The response is that it is a matter of freedom, while in fact they (who insult the founder of Islam) are hostages of the Zionists. And the people of the U.S. and Europe should pay a heavy price for becoming hostages to Zionists."[6] I'd say this quote should go one section up to "Alleged campaigns by the West and alleged Zionist conspiracy". Raphael1 23:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
- Here we go again. Back to the disputes page with ye, there's no excuse for this not passing by now. Homestarmy 16:37, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
GA vs. FA
I want to inform people about the current discussion about the veto-provisions in the GA-project. It seems that Raphael1 and one other person (no one knows if there is anybody else) is blocking for some sensible changes to the rules. I am myself getting pretty tired of the endless discussion without even a possibility for a decent vote. But note that the Featured Article project ironically does NOT have a built-in veto provision as the Good Article project have, which means that Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy could go straight after FA since GA-status is no requirement for FA-nomination. Just informing about the possibilities given the sad situation. This article definitely deserves recognition somehow. --Anjoe 19:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Don't you worry, it has recognition ;-) MX44 19:58, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Err, yes, there was a recomendation by a neutral party that it go to FA. Why doesn;t someone list it was FA, thus skipping the GA controversies.--Irishpunktom\talk 16:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Eh, consensus seems to be forming to relist this on the GA disputes page. Homestarmy 22:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- If this gridlock continues, aiming directly for FA seems like the logical choice. The content is clearly of good quality. Valentinian (talk) 18:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think an attempt to FA list this article would be a very good thing. Obviously my careful GA dispute page listing of its panoply of inadequacies has had no impact whatsoever on the hardcore "stay on message" advocacy of its champions; perhaps rejection by FA will snap some of you out of your illusions. — JEREMY 06:32, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- If this gridlock continues, aiming directly for FA seems like the logical choice. The content is clearly of good quality. Valentinian (talk) 18:47, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
- Eh, consensus seems to be forming to relist this on the GA disputes page. Homestarmy 22:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- Err, yes, there was a recomendation by a neutral party that it go to FA. Why doesn;t someone list it was FA, thus skipping the GA controversies.--Irishpunktom\talk 16:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Zawahiri mentions cartoons
In his latest statement Zawahiri said "It was also preceded by insults to the holy Koran in Bagram and Guantanamo and by the Danish, French, and Italian peoples' mocking of the most noble Prophet, God's peace and blessings be upon him. Yesterday's incidents were also preceded by Clinton's and Thatcher's honouring of Salman Rushdie, rewarding him for offending the Prophet, may God's prayers and blessings be upon him, and his holy household." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/5106330.stm 217.39.11.210 23:16, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
Good, the more honors people like Salman Rushdie get, the better. Politicallyincorrectliberal 10:23, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
"It would be counter-productive to showing that there exist sanity within Islam." (MX44)
Well I'd say, that the above statement by MX44 deserves a new thread. If this is an opinion shared by the other editors of this article, there's no question that this article violates WP:NPOV. Raphael1 09:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oh MX44 just try and leave ole Raphael1 alone now and just focus your time on something a bit more productive. Netscott 12:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, Sir! Will do! I obviously have too much unattended free time floating around. MX44 13:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- The way things are going this article might got some peace soon. Netscott 14:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- The latest quote from Raphael1 in the article demands of the Muslims to continue to show their intolerance [by legal means ...] because Islam is tolerant! :-D Can somebody dig out another quote, having a litle more consistency?
- I also wonder what excactly he means by legal means. Is this to be understood so that he demands a change of the laws to better reflect the ideals of the Ummah? Afterall, the case was thrown out of court. MX44 04:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, this kind of "intolerance" is probably a daily event since newspapers get sued quite frequently for publishing controversial cartoons. How far goes your tolerance? [7][8][9][10]
- Ihsanoglu probably meant the filing of an appeal since the press release was issued on January 28 and the final court decision was given on March 15.
- Why don't we mention the Alliance of Civilizations meeting in Doha on February 25, where the UN, OIC and EU discussed the cartoon controversy? [11][12][13] Raphael1 16:28, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, Sir! Will do! I obviously have too much unattended free time floating around. MX44 13:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Cartoons protest: Four in UK court
From Cnn.com news. Needs to be integrated on one of the JP cartoons pages. Netscott 15:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Reinstated GA
As per the discussion on the GA disputes page this article has been reinstated as GA Gnangarra 09:16, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Does JEREMY and I no longer have veto-power? Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes still reads "everyone has veto power". Raphael1 11:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Funny, general consensus says that the article should be listed... and yet you want to go against that? Netscott 11:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- The full statement is Wikipedia:Good articles is an unbureaucratic system to arrive at a quick consensus set of good articles: everyone can nominate good articles, and everyone has veto power. However, sometimes editors disagree whether an article reaches the good article criteria. This page is for dealing with such disputes.
- GA dispute page has debated the subject, 14 editors have stated that this article should be reinstated as GA. 2 editors disagreed. The original reasons for delisting are unable to be addressed, without deleting this article. Gnangarra 11:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Raphael1 if you think that this article doesn't belong on wikipedia why try to delist it from GA when you could have just nominated it for deletion. Gnangarra 12:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think, that this article doesn't belong on Wikipedia. I just think, that it needs to display "sanity within Islam" to achieve neutrality. Raphael1 12:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Raphael1 if you think that this article doesn't belong on wikipedia why try to delist it from GA when you could have just nominated it for deletion. Gnangarra 12:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- When consensus is based on ignoring clearly defined and commonsense criteria for Good Articles, consensus is wrong. — JEREMY 12:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Most people who said it should be relisted seem to feel that this article clearly meets defined and commonsense criteria for Good Articles, unless your definition of common sense is not the same as everyone else's. Good Articles are not the same as perfect articles, they only have to be good, not perfect, and not having to be perfect means that sometimes not everyone gets everything into an article they want. Homestarmy 12:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, this is the third listing and delisting of this article. The GA system definitely needs revamping in that those who have not contributed (either in editing on the article or discussing it on it's talk page) should be disqualified from having unilateral veto power. Netscott 12:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- We tried to change the rules, but the mediation failed. Homestarmy 13:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- The mediation failed to have the result you would have liked, you mean. If you read the way it wrapped up, you'll see that everyone who bothered to participate seems to have been relatively happy with the way it went. — JEREMY 13:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I was under the impression Anjoe simply dropped the issue because he was too busy, and it seemed like most participants just stopped because you and Anjoe sort of had that long discussion with each other. The rules should be changed because we are still having this argument, why would a system which can create such stalemating arguments even be considered good, the Good Article system would have to be delisted :D. Homestarmy 14:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- We are still having this argument, because Jeremys and my critique gets ignored. If you'd help us to work on our issues, we wouldn't oppose the Good Article status. Raphael1 18:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, most of the issues can either be seen as non-issues or seem to present an overall message of "Change the whole direction of the article", which I don't really have the time or the inclination to do, nor do I suspect most editors have that sort of time either, this is a very extensive article. The article has seemed to me to always have reflected GA criteria ever since stability stopped being a problem, so I don't see the point in re-writing it just to basically make it give Islam a more favorable look and make changes which may or may not have any need to be made. Homestarmy 18:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- You might not see it that way, but I think the article is very much in need to balance the display of Islam. As if the prominently displayed offensive cartoons aren't enough, the article text promotes negative stereotypes of Islam and Muslims too. We don't need to rewrite the whole article, but some key issues definitely need to be addressed to reach neutrality. Raphael1 18:54, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I can tell, most of the issues can either be seen as non-issues or seem to present an overall message of "Change the whole direction of the article", which I don't really have the time or the inclination to do, nor do I suspect most editors have that sort of time either, this is a very extensive article. The article has seemed to me to always have reflected GA criteria ever since stability stopped being a problem, so I don't see the point in re-writing it just to basically make it give Islam a more favorable look and make changes which may or may not have any need to be made. Homestarmy 18:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- We are still having this argument, because Jeremys and my critique gets ignored. If you'd help us to work on our issues, we wouldn't oppose the Good Article status. Raphael1 18:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I was under the impression Anjoe simply dropped the issue because he was too busy, and it seemed like most participants just stopped because you and Anjoe sort of had that long discussion with each other. The rules should be changed because we are still having this argument, why would a system which can create such stalemating arguments even be considered good, the Good Article system would have to be delisted :D. Homestarmy 14:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- The mediation failed to have the result you would have liked, you mean. If you read the way it wrapped up, you'll see that everyone who bothered to participate seems to have been relatively happy with the way it went. — JEREMY 13:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- We tried to change the rules, but the mediation failed. Homestarmy 13:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Hmm, this is the third listing and delisting of this article. The GA system definitely needs revamping in that those who have not contributed (either in editing on the article or discussing it on it's talk page) should be disqualified from having unilateral veto power. Netscott 12:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Most people who said it should be relisted seem to feel that this article clearly meets defined and commonsense criteria for Good Articles, unless your definition of common sense is not the same as everyone else's. Good Articles are not the same as perfect articles, they only have to be good, not perfect, and not having to be perfect means that sometimes not everyone gets everything into an article they want. Homestarmy 12:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I have reinstated (again 1st revert occured after only 3 hours) the GA status of this article in line with the GA dispute comments. GA requests that major contributors to article don't review the article for GA status. The first edit by JEREMY , occured on the 13th Feb 2006, the first edit by Raphael1 was on the 8th May 2006. If you see fualts with the article as editors of the article why not just spend productive time fixing instead of continuing this shamozzle. Gnangarra 14:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'd love to fix this article, but unfortunately MX44, who considers it counter-productive to display a more generally accepted Muslim POV, reverts my edits. Raphael1 18:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I am not a "major contributor" in a way which would prevent me exercising my GA veto; to suggest otherwise on the basis of my edit history of the article is at best disingenuous. I have found many if not most of the editors of this article dedicated to using wikipedia as a soapbox for their frequently bigoted extremism, and entirely disinterested in compromise, reason or common sense. Many of them have displayed a bigotry I have seen nowhere else on this project, and frankly I find it challenging to continue to assume their good faith. Thus, beyond the careful critique I have provided in my GA failure notice, I choose to work instead to protect the rest of the project from their disruptive influences — including, in this case, their extraordinary exploitation of the GA system to game this substandard rubbish onto the list and then lobby to change the system to facilitate the vandalism — rather than wasting my time trying to edit the article. This article has gone beyond mere schoolboy obnoxiousness and dumb-ass bias; its ugly, meanspirited influence now threatens the infrastructure of the project itself. — JEREMY
- Sure you don't want to just take that back, that seems pretty mean. Homestarmy
- Absolutely I want to take it back; it pains me greatly that there are editors "working on" this project who fit the descriptions I've provided above. But while this article and others continue to be dominated by TruthSeekers, Free Speech Advocates and simple xenophobes, I'll continue to call it as I see it. — JEREMY 06:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- No I mean it looks like a WP:NPA violation, and I just didn't want to see you get in trouble for something you might not of meant :/. Homestarmy 16:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- There's no violation of "no personal attacks" here but the commentary is definitely a bit brutal. For me it just rings extremely hollow coming from an editor who up and abandoned this article and made no efforts to improve it for a long time and then when it comes up for listing as a Good Article does his best to shoot down such a listing. Where were you Jeremygbyrne? I'd have to say that I have more respect for User:Raphael1 in this regard who although perhaps his actions were often disruptive and counter-productive at least he stuck with it all of this time like a number of other editors who've been working on this article. Netscott 16:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I can sympathise with Jeremys decision to abandon this article, given the strong uncivil opposition one has to face, if one tries to compromise or make reasonable unbiased edits in this article. In fact I've abandoned the article myself for quite some time for the same reasons. Raphael1 16:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Merciless editing is a big part of Wikipedia, because of this it is often a struggle to render a particular article in accord with neutral point of view. It takes commitment to do this and editors who've demonstrated such commitment tend to earn respect for that commitment. Unless a particular editor develops a reputation for disruptiveness and whose edits are frequently not in accord with consensus their editing over time tends to be viewed beneficially and not suspect. If an editor abandons an article for some time and then comes back around only to complain about it and then not lift a finger themselves to edit it in attempts to improve it relative to such concerns, it's normal for that editor's sudden re-involvement to be viewed with suspect, particularly if that editor is trying to shut down the recognition that an article like this one deserves as generally being "Good". This is why Jeremy's comments and re-involvement rings so very hollow. Netscott 17:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Scott, as is clear from my active involvement in this talk page and my responses to the spillover from this article onto other pages, I have been paying careful attention to it since I made the decision to give up my attempts to help move it towards NPOV some months ago. In the last week I have spent considerable time and effort critiquing this article; I have posted my critique below, and updated it as points from it have been addressed. Your attempts to misrepresent my position do you no favours. That you persist in maintaining that this article is somehow "Good" (let alone a valid FA candidate) beggars belief. — JEREMY 17:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Merciless editing is a big part of Wikipedia, because of this it is often a struggle to render a particular article in accord with neutral point of view. It takes commitment to do this and editors who've demonstrated such commitment tend to earn respect for that commitment. Unless a particular editor develops a reputation for disruptiveness and whose edits are frequently not in accord with consensus their editing over time tends to be viewed beneficially and not suspect. If an editor abandons an article for some time and then comes back around only to complain about it and then not lift a finger themselves to edit it in attempts to improve it relative to such concerns, it's normal for that editor's sudden re-involvement to be viewed with suspect, particularly if that editor is trying to shut down the recognition that an article like this one deserves as generally being "Good". This is why Jeremy's comments and re-involvement rings so very hollow. Netscott 17:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I can sympathise with Jeremys decision to abandon this article, given the strong uncivil opposition one has to face, if one tries to compromise or make reasonable unbiased edits in this article. In fact I've abandoned the article myself for quite some time for the same reasons. Raphael1 16:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- There's no violation of "no personal attacks" here but the commentary is definitely a bit brutal. For me it just rings extremely hollow coming from an editor who up and abandoned this article and made no efforts to improve it for a long time and then when it comes up for listing as a Good Article does his best to shoot down such a listing. Where were you Jeremygbyrne? I'd have to say that I have more respect for User:Raphael1 in this regard who although perhaps his actions were often disruptive and counter-productive at least he stuck with it all of this time like a number of other editors who've been working on this article. Netscott 16:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- No I mean it looks like a WP:NPA violation, and I just didn't want to see you get in trouble for something you might not of meant :/. Homestarmy 16:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Jeremy, I've told you once I'll tell you again, edit the freaking article! and quit bitching about it. Netscott 17:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Article removed from Wikipedia:Good articles
This article was formerly listed as a good article, but was removed from the listing because
- Criticisms of the cartoon are restricted to weak or strawman arguments. Why is there no mention of critics' suggestions that the cartoons were "Childish. Irresponsible. Hate speech. A provocation just for the sake of provocation. A PR stunt."[1] or "unnecessary, insensitive, disrespectful and wrong"[2]?
- "Supporters of the cartoons claim they illustrate an important issue" — Again, this kind of uncited generalisation demonstrates the inherent bias in this article. The claim is entirely unsupported by the Economist ref provided.
- "Several death threats and reward offers for killing those responsible for the cartoons have been made, resulting in the cartoonists going into hiding." — What, all of them?
- Yes! 80.216.124.251 17:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Forgive me for being sceptical, but please add refs supporting this. — JEREMY 15:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2024306,00.html MX44 15:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes! 80.216.124.251 17:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Note the "Publication of the Drawings" is followed immediately by "Jyllands-Posten response", without the apparently inconvenient requirement for an intervening discussion of the Muslim reaction, which would have made some sense of the section titles.
*"It concluded:" — What concluded? The Muslim ambassadors?
- The letter from the ambassadors, see footnote ... 80.216.124.251 17:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- "The ambassadors maintained that they had never asked for Jyllands-Posten to be prosecuted" — No cite. And did they maintain this in chorus?
- Turkey backed out. Egypt backed out, although their ambassador did not. She tried to take credit for the affair instead and was moved to South-Africa. I do not recall who else, but definately not "all in chorus." MX44 21:00, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
*"A group of Danish imams, dissatisfied with the reaction of the Danish Government and Jyllands-Posten" — This construction implies motives to the imams without so much as a cite.
- Ehrmm ... You want more motives and cites? Read your next objection :-D MX44 22:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- In the bloated and unwieldy "dossier" section (what is it about {{Main}} that's so difficult? You worked it our fine for the "Economic costs" section) Hirsi Ali's interview which so offended the imams is not described. Instead, it is immediately excused by the statement "who had just received the Freedom Prize 'for her work to further freedom of speech and the rights of women' from the Danish Liberal Party represented by Anders Fogh Rasmussen."
- The interview was about what you mentioned above, what else? Fashion and cooking? The statement is about what the Muslims disliked and accused her and Fogh Rasmussen for. MX44 22:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- The article only gets around to mentioning the names of (some of) the imams in the "Danish Imams under investigation" section; apparently they only merit identification once they're being linked to terrorism.
- Actually from, when they are linked to making jokes about Islam and violence. Their names are in the even more bloated and unvieldy Akari/Laban dossier MX44 22:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
*"Contemporary majority Sunni Islam" — What is the "Contemporary" meant to imply? That there was a time when Sunni Islam was the minority?
- No, that interpretations change over time. MX44 22:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Of the 18 "Comparable references", all but 3 seem to be entirely OR (ie. they are uncited).
- Your notion of what "Comparable references" should look like, appears to be original rearch as well. There isn't much precedence. The external links belong to articles where wikipedia do not have its own or where there may be more material offsite. MX44 17:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- At least some of the few references I've bothered to check are mislabelled (eg. ref #87).
- The whole shemozzle is rounded out with a liberal smattering of misspellings (eg. "Mgazine", "Jylland-Posten"/"Jyllands Posten"/"Jullands-Posten", and the non-standard "Muhammed" and "Shariah"), homophonic word substitutions (eg. "diffusion" for "defusing"), miscapitalisations (eg. "explained his intent further In the"), introduced redundancies (eg. "We urge you [recipient of the letter or dossier] to - [...] - to give us"), missing spaces, redundant wikilinking,
misquotations like "the number of Muslims expanding like mosquitoes" (that would be "is expanding"),a link to the "Bad Democracy Award for March 2006" slipped in as an "online petition" and the unmissed opportunity to include yet more depictions of Muhammad by irrelevantly including the cover of the Kåre Bluitgen book and a 14th century Persian illustration, as well as a "gotcha" link to the entire Wikicommons archive. And this is even without getting started on the cartoons themselves.
The above commentary was inserted [by me] using the GA delisting template, which for some reason doesn't seem to require a signature. — JEREMY 14:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think this is all Raphaels, his was the last name I saw in the contrib summary :/. Homestarmy 14:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
no as stated it was JEREMY Gnangarra
Balanced article? Then write it
Instead of complaining about the article being imbalanced, why do you not just go ahead and put the changes you see fit in? --mboverload@ 21:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've suggested as much myself already. Netscott 21:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I mean, I'm not trying to be a hard-ass here, but I'm completely open to balanced changes. In fact, I WANT some Islamic views in there! People in the west are extremely confused and hurt that some cartoons would cause deaths. We can't understand it. Help us understand it. Just don't deface the article. It's Wikipedia, after all. =D --mboverload@ 22:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Here is my input towards balance. I've just replaced the IMHO rather weak "Associating Islam with terrorism" section with those two sections. Cyde reverted me and suggested I discuss them here first.
Cartoons incited hatred
- original caption: Accumulated fuel and dangerous sparks
The enormous resentment that Muslims feel towards the west generally is not fully understood or appreciated in the west. It is driven not only by the blind hatred or religious zealotry of extremists but also by frustration and anger with U.S. foreign policy among the mainstream in the Muslim world. That resentment runs deep, and it is accompanied by a feeling of victimization that calls on memories from the crusades to colonialism. The West's espousal of freedom, democracy, and human rights is often perceived as a hypocritical "double standard" when compared to its policies. For instance, the military actions by the U.S. and European allies in Afghanistan and Iraq is another inflammatory issue, which critics perceive as a neocolonialist military endeavor in order to implement unpopular authoritarian regimes who comply with U.S. foreign policy objectives, especially with respect to Israel and Palestine. This long litany of grievances stretching over many years feeds the anger of many mainstream Arabs and Muslims, as well as extremists. This resentment and deep sense of grievance has been accumulating like a dangerous store of combustible fuels. The Cartoons provided a spark that triggered the explosion of anger and the ensuing fires on a global scale. There were also those who actively fanned the flames to advance their own political agendas. But on the whole, it is a misunderstanding by the west to try to measure the result to the size of the spark, but ignoring the accumulation of fuel.
- We mention these issues briefly in the introduction, but there is no expansion in the article itself. I think this could go in (this time with its original caption and proper credits.) MX44 06:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've asked Mr. Serageldin for a permission to pubish his text under GFDL, but since I haven't got a reply, we'll have to paraphrase the sentences I haven't changed/added. However I'm sure that Mr. Serageldin won't oppose if WP publishes his ideas. Raphael1 13:26, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Double Standard
- original caption: On lessons of history and double standards
In Europe it is probably easier for people to make cartoons of Moses, Jesus or even an anthropomorphic God, than to make anti-Semitic cartoons showing Jews with crooked noses and bent backs, and promoting once again the stereotypes that led to the monstrosities of pogroms and the Holocaust.
- This postulate is factually wrong, as evidenced by the Independent cartoon controversy, thereby shortcutting Serageldin's logic, making his following reasoning look like an ill-researched rant. Not least because you also left out Serageldin's own answers to the questions he rises about holocaust. MX44 05:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- The cartoons case was thrown out of court as well, so? MX44 13:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- But would the cartoons case have been thrown out of court, if they'd have depicted Moses with a bomb? At least many European countries which republished the cartoons, wouldn't have republished an anti-Semitic cartoon as there are laws prohibiting them to do so. Raphael1 13:42, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- We will have to wait for the Jews to send some suicide bombers along, won't we? And then see what the cartoonist can come up with and how the courts will react! MX44 14:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the IDF prefers to shoot rockets from helicopters. Anyway it's a proven fact, that JP refused to publish Holocaust cartoons so there definitely is some double standard regarding free speech. [16] Raphael1 15:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- There might be double standards, but they are not regarding free speech. Actually it does unfortunately appear you do not even understand what free speech is. Free speech is NOT fair speech (because you have the right to disagree on what is fair). Free speech is not even the right to have both sides presented in a newspaper (it is on the contrary the right of the newspaper to choose what they want to print). Double standards with regards to free speech whould be if Jyllands-Posten published the cartoons, then started arguing for other people NOT having the right to publish other (legally printable) cartoons or oppinions. This has not happened. Lmoelleb 07:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- You are certainly right, that free speech doesn't mean that a newspaper needs to be fair and unbiased. But the fact that no newspaper in Denmark would rightly publish anti-Semitic cartoons, because there would be legal consequences and a public condemnation, is certainly an indication for a double standard. Raphael1 13:18, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yah, the Danish Jews really are way too anonymous, deliberately making it hard to get to them. They really should try harder, and do an effort to make the news ... Like these guys! MX44 13:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Do you understand the word "rightly"? Raphael1 14:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- For the sake of NPOV i'll place an evil link here from Pakistan as well.
- Let me try go get this right. In Denmark it is OK to draw (including make fun of) Jesus, Moses, and Gud. However, in order to AVOID double standards, it should NOT be allowed to draw pictures of Muhammed. How is it exactly special rules can apply for Muhammed in order to AVOID double standards? How can it be OK to print a cartoon showing a bomb with the Star of David on it (yes, Jyllands-Posten did this)? Doesn't that associate all Jews with violence? No? but the Muhammed cartoons associate all Muslims with terrorismn... double standards? And please keep anti-Semetic out of it - these drawings are not anti-Islamitic in a Danish context. In a Danish context the drawing of Muhammed with a bomb and the bomd with the Star of David are pretty much equally offensive (in other contexts one might be more offending than the other, but obviosly we are discussing Denmark now). Lmoelleb 16:32, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- But no person of conscience who has seen the evidence and studied the facts can react with anything but revulsion and horror at the atrocities committed by the Nazis. One can understand that European societies can and perhaps should limit free speech in some areas out of fear that it resurrect past specters Excerpt from the same Serageldin article as you are quoting. It's pretty good. You should consider reading it! MX44 16:29, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- I did read it of course and I do not disapprove the "limit" on free speech in my country. But rejecting anti-Semitism and at the same time approving Islamophobia is a double standard. Raphael1 19:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
To Muslims that is another example of double standards. Why is it possible to pass legislation that would ban attacks against Jews and forbid denial of the Holocaust and consider it compatible with free speech, but defend offense to Islam and Muslims in the name of free speech?
- Try to replace "Jews with X and Muslims with Y". Then you have "It is illigal to attack X. It is legal to offend Y. It's attack/offend that is at stake here, not Jews or Muslims. Personally I agree holocast denail should not be illigal (and it isn't in Denmark). Basically I fully support the idea that everyone should be allowed to express their stupidity in public. :) But I guess it is made illigal because Holocaust denial is basically done by people who either know Holocaust did happen or at least claim it without any valid research to back it up. They do it for pure political reasons, and I can see the point in making it illigal to knowlingly wrongfully deny genocide for own political gain. Notice I said "I can see the point", not "I agree". Lmoelleb 18:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
If indeed the overwhelming majority of western society, including its political leaders, would have condemned the cartoons, without necessarily having restricted the right of the newspaper to publish them, the same way as they would have condemned an anti-Semitic paper for its attacks against Jews or a racist paper for its attack against blacks, then it is likely that this would have gone a long way towards establishing trust and de-escalating the issue.
- Your style of cherry-picking quotes out of context, twisting the authors intentions, is better fit for FOX-News. That you can even imagine this kind of fake reporting could approach NPOV is highly disturbing. MX44 12:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Would you please elaborate on where this summary misleads Mr. Serageldins intentions. Raphael1 13:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have asked Serageldin to comment on your summary. No reply yet ... MX44 15:19, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Why do you need Serageldins answer? Since you've claimed that I'm twisting the authors intentions, you should be able to explain how you reached that opinion. Raphael1 15:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Actually it is my belief that anybody (except for you), who cares to read the original text will come to the same conclusion.
- Nothing that I could say will convince you anyway. A good spankin from Serageldin might. Are you in a hurry? MX44 15:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not in hurry, but why don't you even try to convince me? Raphael1 15:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Troll? MX44 16:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Raphael1 23:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well did you have adequate references? Several of your statements are certainly controversial, many people would argue that the Islamic fundamentalists do have some justification in Islam for their actions, not just "blind zealotry", and the overall thesis that the west of today is at fault for the possible crimes of generations past certainly needs some strong citations. Besides, there was that Jewish cartoon thing shortly after these, though im not sure if that ever came to pass. Also, I think there's some policy against writing an article with questions to the reader :/. Homestarmy 23:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Reference would be Ismail Serageldin MX44 18:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Nice, somehow I knew that was nearly all about opinion. :-) Netscott 19:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know about justifications of Islamic fundamentalists and I don't even write about them. Furthermore I don't write about fault or guilt at all, instead I write about possible motives. What Jewish cartoon thing are you talking about? The question can be changed to: "The legislation that bans attacks against Jews and forbids the denial of the Holocaust is considered compatible with free speech, whereas offense to Islam and Muslims is defended in the name of free speech." Raphael1 23:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- A fast google for "Sharon cartoon" reveals a sea of crooked-nosed jews. I'm sorry, but you are factually wrong! Throw "Independent" into the mix and you get this one which apparently did upset quite a few Jews. OTOH, the Muslims loved it. The UK press watchdog said if a newspaper had to take into account every possible interpretation of published material, regardless of its own motivation in publication, that would "impose burdens on newspapers that would arguably interfere with their rights to freedom of expression". MX44 00:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well, a good first effort there User:Raphael1 but what you've written bears the mark of original research. These texts also ring in the tone of opinion. What are your sources for these texts? Netscott 00:00, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- A fast google for "Sharon cartoon" reveals a sea of crooked-nosed jews. I'm sorry, but you are factually wrong! Throw "Independent" into the mix and you get this one which apparently did upset quite a few Jews. OTOH, the Muslims loved it. The UK press watchdog said if a newspaper had to take into account every possible interpretation of published material, regardless of its own motivation in publication, that would "impose burdens on newspapers that would arguably interfere with their rights to freedom of expression". MX44 00:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know about justifications of Islamic fundamentalists and I don't even write about them. Furthermore I don't write about fault or guilt at all, instead I write about possible motives. What Jewish cartoon thing are you talking about? The question can be changed to: "The legislation that bans attacks against Jews and forbids the denial of the Holocaust is considered compatible with free speech, whereas offense to Islam and Muslims is defended in the name of free speech." Raphael1 23:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
This is good. We need to start somewhere. Thank you Raphael for taking the time to write that, hopefully we may be able to incorporate some of the issues you raise into the article. --mboverload@ 00:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
I'd appreciate if someone other than Raphael1 were to do this ... Raphael1 has a very long history of tendentious editing on this page, is currently in arbitration, and within a few more days the motion banning him from editing this page entirely might pass (it's currently 3 supports to 0 opposes). --Cyde↔Weys 13:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Please comment on content, not on the contributor. Thank you. Raphael1 14:25, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
My objections are purely pragmatic. It doesn't make sense for you to try to work out a major rewrite when you're about to be permanently banned from editing this article. --Cyde↔Weys 14:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'll stop editing on this article, if the Arbitrators decide to ban me from this article, not because you think they might do so. Raphael1 14:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- In light of User:MX44's revelation of User:Raphael1's copywrite violation inspired text above I believe that User:Cyde's commentary is particularly appropriate here. Netscott 12:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Removed GA tag - Why
User:Jeremygbyrne has remove the GA tag completely from this article. I would like to know on what grounds you have done this. Your list of concerns have been addressed, the WP:GA/D page discussion stoped on the 21st of June with 14 editors supporting the article being reinstated as GA and 2 editors opposing. If the article is delisted then the tag {{delistedGA}} should be placed there. Gnangarra 14:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I've just added the {{delistedGA}} template as you requested. Raphael1 14:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Raphael1. Gnagnarra, although there have been three minor edits to the article which relate to them, my concerns have not been addressed in a substantial way. My vetoing of the GA is entirely legal according to the GA rules, and if others wish to re-nominate it once some more work has been done, I'll be happy to re-assess the article at that point. — JEREMY 15:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- You will be happy? You mean when your contradictory objections all gets resolved simultaniously. Why not be a little honest, and admit you enjoy this :-D MX44 15:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- The views exemplified by this article and the debate accompanying it distress and depress me more than I feel able to convey without resorting to hyperbole. Perhaps you enjoy this kind of thing, MX44; it just makes me ill. — JEREMY 16:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- I can't make the article shorter and at the same time go in to great detail about interviewing Hirsi-Ali. Which one is it to be? The interview can be found here MX44 17:17, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- You will be happy? You mean when your contradictory objections all gets resolved simultaniously. Why not be a little honest, and admit you enjoy this :-D MX44 15:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the "Good article" system is rather broken. I would suggest not bothering with it anymore and go for Featured article status. That doesn't have provisions for unilateral vetoes. --Cyde↔Weys 15:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- See proposal at good article page Wikipedia_talk:Good_articles#Delisting_change. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:34, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well the FA nom has apparently started anyway, I wouldn't worry about it much anymore either. Homestarmy 15:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Eh never mind, it doesn't seem to be going too well, though not for any of the reasons I saw Jeremy bring up. Homestarmy 16:33, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well the FA nom has apparently started anyway, I wouldn't worry about it much anymore either. Homestarmy 15:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
FA nom
Partially per User:Cyde, and mostly because I suspected as much the first time I read the article, I've nominated this for FA status. The article may need another rewrite and renom (for clarity) before being approved, though. —Rob (talk) 15:59, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- A link to the actual FA discussion. We'll definitely want to edit the article to generally assuage the concerns expressed there. Netscott 17:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- It looks like all the concerns not including Raphael and Jeremy deal with the writing and organization, not the content, doesn't seem that hard a thing to fix to me. Homestarmy 17:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Although JEREMY personally disapprove of content, his formal objections is about writing and style. MX44 04:07, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- JEREMY should swap his editorial commentary editing for article editing and help make improvements rather than remaining in his long standing position of abandonment in this regard. Netscott 04:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm getting tired of explaining that I don't believe my editing this article will achieve anything. Once the FA fails and people stop trying to pretend it's a GA, perhaps the true believers will relax their stranglehold POV and allow the article to be restructured into something approaching encyclopaedic quality. Until then, I will continue to offer advice from the sideline. — JEREMY 05:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- So far, the only objections not belonging to your or Raphael seem to be one die-hard "If the picture is there I will never endorse" comment and several comments to the effect of "it doesn't read well", so it looks like content or POV is apparently not much of a problem. Homestarmy 15:25, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Drawmohammed hacked
Nice. This is likely to be repaired shortly. Netscott 23:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- That site is rather hateful ordinarily so if there isn't a big Arabic sign reading Muhammad on the front of it, I'd recommend just closing it out. Netscott 23:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- Gotta hand it to the hackers, the music seemed like a nice touch. Homestarmy 01:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's a bit ironic but the background tune totally reminds me of Madonna's Like a virgin. But yes I agree it is a nice touch. Netscott 02:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- err, never mind the last comment I made, Ad-aware just had a crazy false positive on something else... Homestarmy 02:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- It's a bit ironic but the background tune totally reminds me of Madonna's Like a virgin. But yes I agree it is a nice touch. Netscott 02:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Gotta hand it to the hackers, the music seemed like a nice touch. Homestarmy 01:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
- Looks like a DNS hack. Hmmm .... They have a very peculiar interpretation of Christianity:
- No doubt, Hz. Isa ( Christ ) would dislike and hate your nation.
- MX44 05:34, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
now this is a sort of jihad I can heartily endorse :) shouting abuse at people using electronic media is a very evolved, 21st century kind of aggression management dab (ᛏ) 09:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- There exist an early PDF-archive here of what might be of interrest to our readers, mostly historical pictures and book-covers but also posters from Iran and elsewhere as well. A few cartoons commenting on the JP-controversy. WARNING: One picture from a NY-blog thrown in as if to show the real meaning of offensive. MX44 18:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Apology/Explanation
I certainly did not intend to delete commentary in my last edit, and apologise to Netscott and MX44 for doing so. I'm not entirely sure what happened, but I suspect it relates to my disconnection from my local LAN during an edit. — JEREMY 05:14, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, that was rather puzzling, apology accepted. Netscott 05:15, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Archive?
This page is growing long in its beard.