Born2cycle (talk | contribs) →Requested move to Julián Castro (American politician): more clarification |
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== Requested move 24 January 2019 == |
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{{requested move/dated|Julián Castro}} |
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[[:Julian Castro]] → {{no redirect|Julián Castro}} – This American politician appears to be the primary topic for this name. [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:51, 24 January 2019 (UTC) |
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I am listing this as a move proposal, but the real question to be decided here is: is this American politician the primary topic for the article title [[Julián Castro]]? If he is, we should 1) move this article [[Julian Castro]] (without the diacritic) to [[Julián Castro]], leaving a redirect, and 2) either eliminate the DAB page which is currently at [[Julián Castro]] (regarding it as unnecessary per [[WP:ONEOTHER]]), or else move it to [[Julián Castro (disambiguation)]]. If it is decided that the American politician is NOT the primary topic, then we should have a later discussion about how to title it. -- [[User:MelanieN|MelanieN]] ([[User talk:MelanieN|talk]]) 20:47, 24 January 2019 (UTC) |
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Accent?
Watching Castro during the convention last night, I noticed an accent on the "a" in his first name. Is that the accurate spelling of his name? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:41, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
Education History
Julian admits publicly he entered Stanford solely on the basis of a anti-white racially discriminatory and succeeded entering Law School solely as the beneficiary of Affirmative Action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.97.58.178 (talk) 21:26, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Please provide reliable sources and remain neutral. Terms like "anti-white racially discriminatory" are not going to fly here. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
La Raza Unida
La Raza Unida although describing itself as a Civil Rights organization was in fact a publicly identified Mexican irredentist organization, motivated by race, advocating a program of "Mexican reconquest" of the South West, and has been found to be a criminal organization under both state and federal Racketeering laws as well as state sedition and political extremist laws. La Raza Unida gained headlines when it took over a number a Texas border towns and officially seceded from the United States, declared allegiance to Mexico, raised the Mexican flag, and sent credentialed emissaries to the Mexican government. Rosie Castro was one of the leading figures of the movement and has been under Federal investigation and surveillance for decades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.97.58.178 (talk) 21:31, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Even if the above is true, none of it is going to be added to the article unless you can provide independent, reliable sources to back it up. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a comment board, and everything on it has to be supported by reliable sources. You were correct to put these comments on the talk page, rather than the article itself. You should not add any of this material to the article yourself, since you have put it there twice now. Re-adding it a third time could be considered as edit warring. If you find sources that you consider to be reliable, please provide links here, so that a third party can evaluate the sources and decide whether to add the material to the article. --MelanieN (talk) 22:55, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
IPA pronunciation guide
The IPA transcription of his name starts with /j/, which in IPA stands for the sound that begins, for example, the English word yes. The link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_Spanish shows that you should use /x/ for the sound represented in writing with a j (and sometimes g). Alternative, if he uses an anglicized pronunciation, the proper symbol could be /h/. Anyone who knows IPA and can verify which type of pronunciation he himself normally uses could settle this properly. But surely the IPA should now claim the pronunciation is "yoo-lee-AHN" as it now does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.226.58.191 (talk) 18:00, 7 November 2012 (UTC)
- Long ago I corrected the IPA to [xul'jaŋ], which is the pronunciation given in the Spanish Wikipedia article on the name Julián. Someone seems to have reverted it to what it was before my correction. I changed it to [xul'jaŋ] for the time being, but I second the request for the pronunciation the man himself uses, as long as it's in actual IPA.VonPeterhof (talk) 15:39, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Discussion of possible move
There is a discussion at Talk:Julián Castro#Requested move which could affect the title of this article. --MelanieN (talk) 00:27, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: No move. There's enough of a sense that the diacritic already distinguishes the articles appropriately that there's no consensus to move this article. Cúchullain t/c 19:15, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Julian Castro → Julián Castro (American politician) – Per apparent consensus at Talk:Julián Castro#Requested move, per usage, and per consistency with identical twin brother Joaquín Castro. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:23, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
- Support except that we might consider Julián Castro (mayor). I agree that we should use the version of the name with the accent, and that the Venezuelan president is primary meaning. PatGallacher (talk) 23:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Support Julián Castro (mayor), being a more concise form. Dralwik|Have a Chat 00:38, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- No objection to Julián Castro (mayor), except article says In May 2014 there were reports that he will be nominated as the next Secretary of Housing and Urban Development by President Obama; a White House spokesman and Castro himself both declined to comment.[2]... politicians are mobile, jobs change. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Ah, then I'll support your original wording. Dralwik|Have a Chat 01:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- No objection to Julián Castro (mayor), except article says In May 2014 there were reports that he will be nominated as the next Secretary of Housing and Urban Development by President Obama; a White House spokesman and Castro himself both declined to comment.[2]... politicians are mobile, jobs change. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Support the addition of the accent mark and "(American politician)". Definitely not "mayor," because chances are strong that he will hold other offices in the future. Some change of title is necessary to avoid confusion with former president of Venezuela Julián Castro. Suggest hatnotes for differentiation. --MelanieN (talk) 05:55, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is a solution in search of a problem. Things are perfectly fine the way they are. There are already hatnotes on both articles. Julian Castro is his name in many sources, such as Reuters, The Washington Post, USA Today, Politico, and the University of Texas at San Antonio Digital Library, to name a few. Over the next few months anyone typing Julian Castro in the search box is going to want this article by a factor of at least a hundred to one, because of the HUD nomination, so this is by far the primary topic compared to a short-term Venezuelan President 150 years ago - no disrespect to him. Why send the vast majority of readers to the article they don't want? Not to mention "politician" can have a subtle negative connotation to some people during his confirmation hearings, as opposed to "statesman" or even "mayor" - this is the worst possible time for this proposal - we should not appear biased right now even unintentionally. 66.217.194.25 (talk) 20:04, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- There IS a problem. Consensus of the discussion at Talk: Julián Castro seemed to be that the current situation - where the two articles are differentiated only by the presence or absence of an accent mark, Julian Castro for this article, Julián Castro for the other - is not acceptable. --MelanieN (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Only 4 or 5 editors participated in that discussion. The far broader consensus reflected at the policy page WP:Article titles is that it is perfectly acceptable as long as hatnotes are present. Furthermore these articles have existed under their current titles since 2005 without any problem noted. 66.217.198.212 (talk) 04:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- As per User:MelanieN verbatim, plus also WP:RECENT. The IP (only post) should realize that adding (American politician) will help readers find what they are looking for an avoid the more long-term notable historical figure. As far as "Julian Castro is his name in many sources [then listing basic ASCII sources]" - we do not give basic ASCII names to people simply because they get mentioned in Basic ASCII sources. The IP would have to show at the very least that New York Times and Economist drop accents deliberately while keeping them for other names, and in any case this aspect is a red herring as with or without a font change the Venezuelan president is still there. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:57, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- Readers will be looking for this article under "Julian Castro". Most English speakers do not care about the accent and certainly won't type it. Reliable sources use both versions. The sources cited were HTML, not Basic ASCII. But I'm not opposed to an accent. The point is that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC so don't make it tougher on the large majority of readers just as this article becomes much more read (thousands of times each day compared to a few dozen for the Venezuelan). If you want to switch this to "Julián Castro" the other should be switched to "Julián Castro (Venezuelan president)", but I don't think it's necessary. 66.217.198.212 (talk) 04:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- That was just discussed at the other move request; consensus there was that the president of a country should be the primary subject over a mayor, even though the mayor gets lots more hits. --MelanieN (talk) 05:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- That does not benefit the readers of Wikipedia, in my opinion. In any case, if we leave things as they are, that issue is moot. 66.217.198.212 (talk) 06:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- That was just discussed at the other move request; consensus there was that the president of a country should be the primary subject over a mayor, even though the mayor gets lots more hits. --MelanieN (talk) 05:41, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- Readers will be looking for this article under "Julian Castro". Most English speakers do not care about the accent and certainly won't type it. Reliable sources use both versions. The sources cited were HTML, not Basic ASCII. But I'm not opposed to an accent. The point is that this is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC so don't make it tougher on the large majority of readers just as this article becomes much more read (thousands of times each day compared to a few dozen for the Venezuelan). If you want to switch this to "Julián Castro" the other should be switched to "Julián Castro (Venezuelan president)", but I don't think it's necessary. 66.217.198.212 (talk) 04:48, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- There IS a problem. Consensus of the discussion at Talk: Julián Castro seemed to be that the current situation - where the two articles are differentiated only by the presence or absence of an accent mark, Julian Castro for this article, Julián Castro for the other - is not acceptable. --MelanieN (talk) 20:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)
- Strong oppose per WP:TWODABS. For the reader, it is enough that there a WP:HATNOTE with {{distinguish}} template to help them find the person of the (to them) identical name. It is entirely irrelevant if they notice or not the accent mark. If, and only if, the accent mark is really part of his wp:commonname as well as his official and personally preferred name (I'm slightly sceptical to that, seeing that he is a US politician, and I'd like to see that supported by wp:rs an wp:v sources), then per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC combined with WP:NATURALDIS to avoid superfluous parenthetical disambiguators, the dab should be Julián Castro Contreras for the Venezuelan president. walk victor falk talk 11:42, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose per Victor Falk. Calidum Talk To Me 00:35, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. I'm not convinced that we should allow disambiguation by the diacritic alone, but we do, and so long as we do there's no problem with the current setup. Andrewa (talk) 02:25, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I remember reading somewhere - can't find it now - that for Wikipedia purposes, the name with or without the diacritic is considered to be identical. For example, François Mitterrand and Francois Mitterrand are the same name. Beyoncé and Beyonce are the same name. Andre the Giant is not a different person from André the Giant. What we have here is two different articles with the same name (differing only in the diacritic, which both of them actually use anyhow). And that violates Wikipedia policy that article names have to be unique. --MelanieN (talk) 03:08, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
- You might be thinking of WP:Article titles, which is the relevant policy page. Identical titles are a technical impossibilty. Unlike print, which could have two or more articles titled "John Smith", the software can't handle that. But "John Smith", "John smith", "Johnsmith", "JohnSmith" "John-Smith" and "John Smith!" could all be article titles. The policy is that if we have very similar article titles, like here, there must be hatnotes on each, but I'm not aware of any policy that says they can't exist. 66.217.193.55 (talk) 01:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- I remember reading somewhere - can't find it now - that for Wikipedia purposes, the name with or without the diacritic is considered to be identical. For example, François Mitterrand and Francois Mitterrand are the same name. Beyoncé and Beyonce are the same name. Andre the Giant is not a different person from André the Giant. What we have here is two different articles with the same name (differing only in the diacritic, which both of them actually use anyhow). And that violates Wikipedia policy that article names have to be unique. --MelanieN (talk) 03:08, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose (provisionally).
- Without establishing the primacy of the accented form in English-language sources, I normally still would support such a move; pages generally should not be disambiguated by only an accent mark. However, the nomination does not stipulate where "Julian Castro" would go after the move. If it redirects back to the American politician article, why bother with the move to a longer title? And if not, why create a dab page for only two articles (WP:TWODABS)?
- However, if the accent mark is deemed by others (based on secondary sources) to be a critical integral part to the American politician's name (something not demonstrated so far), then I support the move with a redirect of "Julian Castro" to that article. But as it stands, the status quo seems best. — AjaxSmack 12:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Comment
We almost always title our biographical articles with diacritics if the people they're about use the diacritic in their own English-language life. I'm curious if we could ask the mayor whether or not he minds people dropping the accent, lol. (As closer of the other move, I'm not participating here - fully neutral.) Red Slash 22:43, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- I doubt if he would "mind", as in, make an issue of it (a typical politician attitude would be - call me anything, just call me). He knows that many newspapers aren't set up to use diacritics. But as for his actual name, he uses the accent on the official mayoral page,[1] his personal webpage, [2] his Facebook page,[3] and his Twitter account.[4] It's pretty clear that he uses it himself consistently. (I presume a main reason he uses it is so that people will call him Hoo-lee-AHN instead of JOO-lee-un.) --MelanieN (talk) 22:56, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
- But we'd be asking only half the question. The question should be whether he'd rather have us drop the accent or add the word "politician" in bold letters next to his name at the top of the article. Who knows, his answer might be the same, but I bet he'd at least stop to think about it. 66.217.193.55 (talk) 01:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Relationship with Fidel Castro
Should we discuss the differences between Fidel Castro and Julian Castro so people don't confuse them? As in a redirect to make it clear that they are not the same near the top of the page 182.255.99.214 (talk) 11:35, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- No. No one is confused. Kuru (talk) 11:38, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- Agree. Fidel doesn't own the name Castro; it's a common last name in the U.S. (nearly 100,000 people) and in the world. See Castro (surname). --MelanieN (talk) 17:52, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
wp:blp
I've made this restore its relevant, well cited, and does not violate anything on wp:blp. Bangabandhu (talk) 03:44, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yes it does - it's opinion pieces and cherry picked "criticism".Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:35, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- And even aside from that, the sources are border-line reliable. Not enough for BLP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 04:36, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you were more specific with your concerns and careful with your edits. A wholesale deletion does not improve the article. What about it exactly do you find "cherry picked"? I have added more sources. Is the NYT not reliable or noteworthy in your view? Bangabandhu (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, the NYT is reliable and noteworthy but unfortunately it doesn't support the text you wish to add. The text in question is "Castro was subjected to increased scrutiny over the sale of steeply discounted mortgages and thousands of foreclosed houses to Wall Street firms through HUD's Distressed Assets Stabilization Program ". The NYT article just says "housing advocates have stepped up their calls for reforms in the loan sale program and singled out Julian Castro, the HUD secretary, for what they said was his slow response to heeding the criticism". That's different. So still a no. (And yes, deletions do improve articles, depending on what is being deleted) Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:25, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
- Publicintegrity and buzzfeed still not suitable for BLP. Salon, politico still not suitable for BLP.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:26, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you were more specific with your concerns and careful with your edits. A wholesale deletion does not improve the article. What about it exactly do you find "cherry picked"? I have added more sources. Is the NYT not reliable or noteworthy in your view? Bangabandhu (talk) 01:03, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
You do have some acceptable sources this time. Politico and NYT are OK. They do support some of your material. However, the Salon op-ed is POV and completely unacceptable. The "Value Walk" item actually links to the Salon op-ed and in any case Value Walk is not a neutral or reliable source. The Center for Public Inquiry is not a neutral or reliable source. Buzzfeed is described as a ""social news and entertainment company" which does not sound like a publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Get rid of those four, and then see what can still be sourced by the Politico and NYT references. --MelanieN (talk) 02:35, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
Castro's ability to speak Spanish
An IP special purpose account added a paragraph saying that Castro doesn't speak Spanish very well, so that his campaign outreach abilities are limited. The paragraph was sourced to an NBC news item which in turn was sourced to an unnamed "Clinton ally". I considered that sourcing too weak and deleted it. The IP added it again. I don't want to get into an edit war so I left it in place and I am bringing it here for discussion. Should this material be included in the article? --MelanieN (talk) 21:18, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Yes it should2602:304:B225:4839:5955:D904:DE2D:2BD6 (talk) His potential for outreach was a campaign issue--covered by large media. It was one reason why the State Party wanted him specifically to be nominated. If this was significantly impacted in any way, including by something he did or could not successfully do, it would need to be added into the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:304:B225:4839:5955:D904:DE2D:2BD6 (talk) 21:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for your comments. It could be significant, yes, but only if it is verified by strong, credible sources. This item is sourced to an un-named "Clinton ally" - which could, on this week of all weeks, mean someone who is in competition for the Vice Presidential nomination. I regard this kind of anonymous back-biting with strong skepticism. If we can find other people saying it besides an anonymous "Clinton ally" I would be more inclined to include it. --MelanieN (talk) 22:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
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Requested move 12 January 2019
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: procedural close, malformed. The suggested target is occupied by another article. Dekimasuよ! 06:47, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Julian Castro → Julián Castro – He goes by that name with the pronunciation with an accent. In addition, he personally styles his name like this and said if he ran for President he would use the accent. Furthermore, his brother's article has an accent. So simply it is incorrect to omit the accent. Qballer82 (talk) 06:21, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move to Julián Castro (American politician)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: No move. Clearly no consensus to move to the proposed disambiguated title, but this is messy because of the move of the Venezuelan president during this discussion. There really needs to be a separate multi-move proposal to determine if this American politician is the primary topic of the name with the diacritic, whether his COMMONNAME includes the diacritic, and whether the dab page there now should be moved to make room for this article. I just don't see how to make that determination from this discussion. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 19:44, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
Julian Castro → Julián Castro (American politician) – This article is currently titled Julian Castro, while the article about a former president of Venezuela is titled Julián Castro. Per discussion at Talk:Julián Castro, nobody likes having them disambiguated only by a diacritic, particularly since the American who is the subject of this article also uses a diacritic. There is developing consensus at that article to move it to Julián Castro (Venezuelan president); I suggest a corresponding DABbed title here as Julián Castro (American politician). The current title Julian Castro should be retained as a redirect to Julián Castro (American politician), since coverage of this person sometimes omits the diacritic, whereas it is always used for the Venezualan. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:31, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. With respect to the Venezuelan president's significance, his article is rarely viewed more than 20 times a day. When 99.31% of people searching Julian Castro want the US politician, disambiguating does little more than create a thorn in reader's sides. Nohomersryan (talk) 22:43, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. Move the Venezuelan guy but not this one. This one is the primary topic, so hat note it. Legacypac (talk) 22:48, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose - This subject is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC in terms of usage, by far, and unknown (but likely) in terms of long-term significance. This Venezuelan president served for a year and half 160 years ago. Not that many people are reading his bio on enwiki.- MrX 🖋 22:52, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose This Julián Castro is clearly the primary topic and the only proper move would be one that adds the diacritic. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:57, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm perfectly fine with a diacritic being the sole difference in the article name. I'm sure it's the case with other articles, though I can't think of one. It's a similar situation to Jacoby Jones and JaCoby Jones. Per WP:TWODABS, a disambiguation page isn't necessary. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:09, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- (ec) Comment We could keep this one where it is, without the diacritic, but that's not really the name he goes by. As for whether this is the Primary Topic, IMO that's recentism and America-centrism. It's true that this article gets more page views, but this is about a person who has been a mayor and a cabinet secretary, while the other is about someone who was the president of his country. If we retain Julian Castro as a redirect pointing to the DAB-named article, there will be no inconvenience to readers. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sure it is recentism but also lots of people are searching for info in English about the American while few people care about the long dead guy and those that do likely speak spanish. Legacypac (talk) 00:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- MelanieN, I do not think recentism really applies since this person has been highly notable for at least ten years. As for "America-centrism", perhaps that phrase should be changed to "U.S.-centrism" since Venezuela is located on one of the two American continents. If the readership was 70-30 or even 80-20, perhaps these points would be valid. But since 99+% of our readers are looking for this biography, not for the one about the briefly serving Venezuelan president, it seems clear to me that this is the primary topic. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:52, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- If anything both the accented and unaccented names without the DAB should be the title and a redirect to this US politician and the long dead President moved to (Venezuelan politician). A lot of the traffic to the Venezuelan guy is people looking for the US Presidential candidate. Legacypac (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- MelanieN, I do not think recentism really applies since this person has been highly notable for at least ten years. As for "America-centrism", perhaps that phrase should be changed to "U.S.-centrism" since Venezuela is located on one of the two American continents. If the readership was 70-30 or even 80-20, perhaps these points would be valid. But since 99+% of our readers are looking for this biography, not for the one about the briefly serving Venezuelan president, it seems clear to me that this is the primary topic. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:52, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Sure it is recentism but also lots of people are searching for info in English about the American while few people care about the long dead guy and those that do likely speak spanish. Legacypac (talk) 00:13, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. A hatnote is fine to direct readers to the right page, per WP:TWODABS. Calidum 23:21, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose and move this page to Julián Castro, and move the current article on that page to Julián Castro (Venezuelan politician). MAINEiac4434 (talk) 03:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- why not Julián Castro Contreras? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.13.212 (talk) 06:51, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support it's an encyclopedia. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:00, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose as this is the English Wikipedia, not the Spanish Wikipedia. -- GoodDay (talk) 16:08, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support On one end we have a president of a major country, on the other end a random mayor of a city known only by Americans. This is a shame. I agree with the recentism and America-centrism point made by the person above. --Deansfa (talk) 19:55, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Did you actually just write "a random mayor of a city known only by Americans", Deansfa? Really? Are you aware that San Antonio was the largest Spanish settlement in what is now Texas going back over 300 years, that it is important in the history of Mexico and the Republic of Texas and the Confederate States of America, and that it it now the 7th largest city in a country with a population of 325 million people? Hey, I am 66 years old, have only visited Texas three times (other than changing planes) and have never once visited San Antonio. But I am smart enough to know that San Antonio is a major world city. Get a clue. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 09:50, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- The real shame is an emotional, fact-free attempt to correct perceived biases. The Venezuelan president was the president for a year and five months of a country with a population of about 1 million. In contrast, the subject of this article was the mayor of a city of 1.5 million for five years and the HUD secretary of a country of 325 million people for two and a half years. The Venezuelan president's article is read by 13 people per day. The U.S. presidential candidate's article is read by 1318 people each day, a hundred fold difference. If nothing else, the sudden spike in page views from disappointed readers who are looking for the presidential candidate but landing on the obscure, treasonous Venezuelan president's article, should seal the deal. - MrX 🖋 20:42, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
- Solid point MrX. The Venezuelan president can very well be argued to be a rather obscure figure from deep in the annals of history. Whereas the other is a highly relevant contemporary figure to which most readers searching their name would be likely navigating towards. It is important to make Wikipedia a usable and navigable source. If anything, the Venezuelan president would immensely more frequently be serving as a hindrance/annoyance to readers seeking the American politician than it would serve as an intended destination. SecretName101 (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- So you're just confirming what I was saying by qualifying the American mayor as a "highly relevant contemporary figure" and the Venezuelan president as an obscure figure from deep in the annals of history. Thanks for the support. --Deansfa (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Bizzare you are referring to him merely as a mayor. The man was also a cabinet member. Do you really believe that at any point in the coming decades more English Wikipedia readers would be looking for the Venezuelian president than would be looking for the American politician (a cabinet member, presidential candidate, mayor of a major city, keynote speaker at a Democratic National Convention, and a top contender in the 2016 Democratix VP sweepstakes)? SecretName101 (talk) 05:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
- So you're just confirming what I was saying by qualifying the American mayor as a "highly relevant contemporary figure" and the Venezuelan president as an obscure figure from deep in the annals of history. Thanks for the support. --Deansfa (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Solid point MrX. The Venezuelan president can very well be argued to be a rather obscure figure from deep in the annals of history. Whereas the other is a highly relevant contemporary figure to which most readers searching their name would be likely navigating towards. It is important to make Wikipedia a usable and navigable source. If anything, the Venezuelan president would immensely more frequently be serving as a hindrance/annoyance to readers seeking the American politician than it would serve as an intended destination. SecretName101 (talk) 08:48, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose. This is the English Wikipedia and the American politician clearly takes precedence in this case, as most English readers will be looking for this article. There is no reason to introduce a parenthetical disambiguation when one isn't needed. Rreagan007 (talk) 01:50, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose.
While I certainly do not agree with the jingoistic comment immediately above,the hatnote at the top of both articles should get readers to the desired article and parenthetical disambiguation will not improve that. Jonathunder (talk) 17:27, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Jonathunder: Please be more specific about exactly what it is about my comment that you take issue with. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:25, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- If you didn't mean Americans take precedence over Venezuelans because this is an English language project, then I misread your comment and will apologize. Jonathunder (talk) 00:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- No, what I meant was that the readers of the English Wikipedia take precedent, and as there are far more English speakers in America than Venezuela, there are likely to be many times more readers of the English Wikipedia in America than in Venezuela. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- I apologize for not assuming good faith. Jonathunder (talk) 18:20, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- No, what I meant was that the readers of the English Wikipedia take precedent, and as there are far more English speakers in America than Venezuela, there are likely to be many times more readers of the English Wikipedia in America than in Venezuela. Rreagan007 (talk) 03:11, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- If you didn't mean Americans take precedence over Venezuelans because this is an English language project, then I misread your comment and will apologize. Jonathunder (talk) 00:55, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support It is literally incorrect to omit the accent, as it is his name. Furthermore, it will keep articles consistent with accents like with his brother. Qballer82 (talk) 06:19, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support move to Julián Castro and Oppose move to Julián Castro (American politician), as Julián Castro, the American politician seems to satisfy the requirements of being a primary topic under Wikipedia's guidelines. The American Julián Castro is a contemporary federal politician of the United States who has been in the media spotlight for a decade, was the mayor of a major city with 1.3 million residents for five years, and is the sibling of a federal politician of similar notability. The Venezuelan Julián Castro, who served as President for a year in the 19th century, had virtually little effect on Venezuela or its history as it seems from what is currently on his article on the English and Spanish Wikipedia. Toolforge's Pageviews Analysis tool shows that the American politician consistently averages hundreds of pagevews daily since 2015. The Venezuelan politican has only gotten over 50 daily pageviews on just four days between 2015 and 2018; ironically, the recent spike for the Venezuelan politician's article can be attributed to the American politician's announcement of a bid for President of the Untied States. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 12:46, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support above move to Julián Castro. Oppose move to Julián Castro (American politician). ––Redditaddict69 (talk) (contribs) 17:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support the status quo or a move to Julián Castro (American politician). Oppose a move to Julián Castro per WP:RECENTISM and WP:GEOBIAS towards towards the United States. Happy to reconsider the latter when he becomes nominee or president. — AjaxSmack 02:29, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support (American politician) per AjaxSmack. Classic WP:NOPRIMARY case, we can always re-evaluate if the American politician wins the primary. Iffy★Chat -- 12:10, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support; it's less USA-centric and more accurate at the same time. Win-win BenLeggiero (talk) 02:27, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose The US politician is primary with respect to usage, so this article should stay at the version of the name that people will normally navigate to. Recentism is bad when it gives the reader a distorted view of a topic, not when it merely saves a large majority of readers a click in getting to the article they're looking for. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 14:07, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support. He's using the diacritic prominently in his campaign materials, so the current title is just incorrect. The discussion about possibly retitling the other Castro page can take place later, depending on how well this Castro's presidential race goes. It's going to be a long couple of years so there's no rush. For now, we should use his name as he spells it. Designate (talk) 16:59, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: Regardless of the page's title, the content of the page should use "Julián Castro" as that is his actual name. This should also be changed on pages referencing him such as 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries. Support a move to Julián Castro (and current Julián Castro to something like Julián Castro (Venezuelan president)) if he is nominated for the presidency. In which case Julian Castro should be a redirect to Julián Castro with the About template pointing to the Venezuelan president. eduardog3000 (talk) 02:52, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Support move to Julián Castro, but the disambiguator is not needed, per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC (the usage part, not necessarily the enduring notability part). Bradv🍁 14:37, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Comment The article about the Venezuelan president, formerly at Julián Castro, has been moved to Julián Castro (Venezuelan president).
Julián Castro is now a redirect to that article, so it is potentially available for this article to be moved to that title. Based on that availability, and influenced by the discussion here, I am now in favor of moving this article to Julián Castro, rather than to Julián Castro (American politician) as I initially proposed.-- MelanieN (talk) 16:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I was mistaken. Julián Castro is not a redirect, it is a DAB page listing both people of that name. It would need a whole new discussion to determine whether this American politician is the primary topic and should be the target of a redirect. IMO that discussion should wait until this one is closed. In the meantime I favor leaving it at its current title, and not adding (American politician). To be clear, my position at this RM discussion is now oppose (yes, even though I started it). -- MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion has been open for 12 days and the consensus is quite clear. I can't imagine that anyone would seriously object to completing the move per WP:IAR.- MrX 🖋 17:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by "completing the move". This discussion was about moving to (American politician); there is a pretty clear consensus against that, and this could probably be closed right now as "no move", although someone uninvolved should do that. If by "completing the move" you mean "moving this article to Julián Castro and eliminating the DAB page", we can't just do that. As per the procedural close above, you can't just decide move to a page that has content on it and eliminate that content. It would require a new discussion - one that would involve the participants at both pages. It may be obvious to you, and to other discussants here, that the American is the primary topic, but there were a number of people in the discussion at Talk:Julián Castro, and some at this discussion, who objected to that notion, so that needs to be worked out. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- Julián Castro was moved to another title thus freeing up Julián Castro. I am not aware of any consensus for turning it into a DAB page, and a pretty solid case has been made for moving Julian Castro to Julián Castro, consistent with WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. In other words, the DAB page was bold (and somewhat opportunistic) creation. A better solution is to use a DAB hatnote on this article, after it is renamed Julián Castro.- MrX 🖋 18:32, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by "completing the move". This discussion was about moving to (American politician); there is a pretty clear consensus against that, and this could probably be closed right now as "no move", although someone uninvolved should do that. If by "completing the move" you mean "moving this article to Julián Castro and eliminating the DAB page", we can't just do that. As per the procedural close above, you can't just decide move to a page that has content on it and eliminate that content. It would require a new discussion - one that would involve the participants at both pages. It may be obvious to you, and to other discussants here, that the American is the primary topic, but there were a number of people in the discussion at Talk:Julián Castro, and some at this discussion, who objected to that notion, so that needs to be worked out. -- MelanieN (talk) 17:29, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- The discussion has been open for 12 days and the consensus is quite clear. I can't imagine that anyone would seriously object to completing the move per WP:IAR.- MrX 🖋 17:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- I was mistaken. Julián Castro is not a redirect, it is a DAB page listing both people of that name. It would need a whole new discussion to determine whether this American politician is the primary topic and should be the target of a redirect. IMO that discussion should wait until this one is closed. In the meantime I favor leaving it at its current title, and not adding (American politician). To be clear, my position at this RM discussion is now oppose (yes, even though I started it). -- MelanieN (talk) 17:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- P.S. I agree with User:eduardog3000 that we should use the diacritic on his name in the text of this article, and will add it. -- MelanieN (talk) 16:17, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Requested move 24 January 2019
Julian Castro → Julián Castro – This American politician appears to be the primary topic for this name. MelanieN (talk) 20:51, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
I am listing this as a move proposal, but the real question to be decided here is: is this American politician the primary topic for the article title Julián Castro? If he is, we should 1) move this article Julian Castro (without the diacritic) to Julián Castro, leaving a redirect, and 2) either eliminate the DAB page which is currently at Julián Castro (regarding it as unnecessary per WP:ONEOTHER), or else move it to Julián Castro (disambiguation). If it is decided that the American politician is NOT the primary topic, then we should have a later discussion about how to title it. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:47, 24 January 2019 (UTC)