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:::: Yes, I was referring to you as partisan. And Milicz, the whole thing about crap [[Pope John Paul II]] and Stalin-like analogies has been dealt with. Being head of the largest state in Europe west of the Mongols hardly equates to being a private citizen, the very idea could be interpreted as mildly insulting or even a downright ethnic slur. Milicz, if you are going to repeat these same trashy arguments, please understand how tedious and repetitive it becomes for other users. I'll tell you now that I have better things to do that waste time going over the same ground. It's blatantly obvious that a large bulk of users disagree in principle. If we all realize this now, we can all save ourselves heated bs-ridden argument, and instead try to find a consensus more acceptable to each side than either extreme is going to be. '''[[User:Calgacus|Calgacus]] (''[[User talk:Calgacus|ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ]]'')''' 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC) |
:::: Yes, I was referring to you as partisan. And Milicz, the whole thing about crap [[Pope John Paul II]] and Stalin-like analogies has been dealt with. Being head of the largest state in Europe west of the Mongols hardly equates to being a private citizen, the very idea could be interpreted as mildly insulting or even a downright ethnic slur. Milicz, if you are going to repeat these same trashy arguments, please understand how tedious and repetitive it becomes for other users. I'll tell you now that I have better things to do that waste time going over the same ground. It's blatantly obvious that a large bulk of users disagree in principle. If we all realize this now, we can all save ourselves heated bs-ridden argument, and instead try to find a consensus more acceptable to each side than either extreme is going to be. '''[[User:Calgacus|Calgacus]] (''[[User talk:Calgacus|ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ]]'')''' 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::I am at a loss with you two, you get valid arguments and you answer with random thoughts by Jack Handy. You tell me to "re-read the arguments more slowly" instead of acknowledging the arguments don't exist (they don't, I've looked through all the archives) and you claim I'm some sort of partisan, equating a valid Karol Wojtyla analogy with an ethnic slur, which is absurd. Karol Wojtyla was a Cardinal, not a nameless private citizen, but even if he was a "private citizen" I still don't understand your logic or why you would find anything insulting in what I wrote. All I would ask from you two is for a succinct argument for your position, is that to much to ask?--[[User:Milicz|Milicz]] 04:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC) |
:::::I am at a loss with you two, you get valid arguments and you answer with random thoughts by Jack Handy. You tell me to "re-read the arguments more slowly" instead of acknowledging the arguments don't exist (they don't, I've looked through all the archives) and you claim I'm some sort of partisan, equating a valid Karol Wojtyla analogy with an ethnic slur, which is absurd. Karol Wojtyla was a Cardinal, not a nameless private citizen, but even if he was a "private citizen" I still don't understand your logic or why you would find anything insulting in what I wrote. All I would ask from you two is for a succinct argument for your position, is that to much to ask?--[[User:Milicz|Milicz]] 04:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::There's nothing there to understand. [[User:Dr. Dan|Dr. Dan]]-[[User:Calgacus|Calgacus]]'s productions are all bombast, [[arrogance]], [[profanity|profanities]], and loose associations (the latter, a cousin to [[word salad (mental health)|word salad]]). [[User:logologist|logologist]]|[[User_talk:logologist|Talk]] 06:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:37, 8 September 2006
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Just move on
See what happens when you try to stir some old pot sitting and rotting here for months and years. We are going to move a single inch nowhere, unless everyone forgets, deletes what happened, takes a deep breath, and realizes that world is a good place to live in. So now, since we forgot everything what happened before, we can start being productive again. A RM from here to ... ? (fill in the blank) Renata 15:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- I archived the page to facilitate this "clean start" proposal and to bury all the bad feelings. Renata 18:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- I'd suggest Wladyslaw II Jagiello.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- I'd suggest leaving it at Jogaila. Dr. Dan 04:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dr. Dan originally made his appearance upon Wikipedia's Polish scene, insisting that Władysław "translates" into English as "Lancelot." So perhaps... "Lancelot II Jogaila"? logologist|Talk 06:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Stop right there! Any digging in the past who's guilty and who's not is strictly prohibited! Concentrate on here and now. Renata 06:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Dr. Dan originally made his appearance upon Wikipedia's Polish scene, insisting that Władysław "translates" into English as "Lancelot." So perhaps... "Lancelot II Jogaila"? logologist|Talk 06:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- I'd suggest leaving it at Jogaila. Dr. Dan 04:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- I'd suggest Wladyslaw II Jagiello.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 04:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Renata you are right, let's stop the potshots. And BTW, it's very interesting that logologist would consider editing the Jogaila entry on English Wikipedia as entering the "Polish" scene. Dr. Dan 12:45, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Both versions with and without diacritics gained similar support, so I'd go with either one. I'd also support a clean start, but I'd mention the fact that the page was moved against the consensus and in violation of wiki laws in the WP:RM description. It is an important factor, especially that I have an impression that many of those who try to legitimize the current name of this article hope that the usual group of nay-sayers at WP:RM will join them (and there's really a large group who vote against any moves for no reason at all). But perhaps it's just me. //Halibutt 10:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Halibutt, world is round, but I don't know a country with a round map. Jogaila of Lithuania agreed to be King of Poland, but Lithuania at his lifetime was not part of Poland. If you do not understand this, it is just you. And you break the laws of Wikipedia by using Wilno/Vilna against Wikipedia rules, it is also just you. Please do not teach administrator Jadger rules and laws of Wikipedia. Juraune 13:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
What about both names in the title? Jogaila of Lithuania, Wladyslaw II Jagiello of Poland or Jogaila (Lithuania), Wladyslaw II Jagiello (Poland) or Jogaila - Wladyslaw II Jagiello. Other proposals are also welcome. Orionus 12:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- I dunno, Jogaila seems like the perfect name to me; unambiguous, short, etc. I suppose Jogaila (Wladyslaw II) could also be barely acceptable. I don't think "of country" is necessary, as in both cases the names make the country clear. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 12:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
As much as I think exceptions are annoying, perhaps this conflict can only be solved by something like Władysław II Jagiello (Jogaila). Would this be an acceptable compromise for all involved?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 15:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Fine with me.--SylwiaS | talk 15:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- ...And your arguments are? Why not Jogaila (Władysław II Jagiello) in chronological order?--Lokyz 22:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Per Milicz arguments below.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 00:20, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- ...leave as it is just Jogaila M.K. 22:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I've read all the talk pages, took me about an hour. This discussion has been going on for close to a year now, and it's ridiculius. Jogaila is the name Władysław was known as while he was Grand Duke of Lithuania. He was thereafter known as the King of Poland, Lithuania etc., but the name Jogaila was now gone, he took the name Władysław, or Ladislau for those that want to quibble. He was thereafter know more generally and famously as Władysław the King of Poland. I kept reading in order to find some "scholarly arguments" made by Calgacus according to Dr. Dan, in support of using Jogaila, unfortunately I found none. The article is completely misleading at this moment, is uses a less popular localized name instead of the historically used name. I would compare it to renaming the Joseph Stalin page to Iosif Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili.--Milicz 23:31, 7 September 2006 (UTC)--
- So it took you an hour to read it all? And you couldn't find any scholarly arguments presented by Calgacus. Yes, how unfortunate. Using Ladislaus on the English Wikipedia instead of Wladyslaw (whenever appropriate, and in this case it's not), would be quibbling. Right? Sort of like Barbara Rakuszanka. Let's not quibble and use Rzym instead of Rome while were at it too. Great analogy regarding Stalin also, Milcz. Dr. Dan 02:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- I can't stand it when blatantly partisan users pretend to be objective. Piotrus and some of the others were on a good course ... by at least attempting discussion and negotiations. Renata, thanks for trying to steer this on a good path. Piotrus, wouldn't Wladyslaw II (Jogaila) be better than Wladyslaw II Jagiello (Jogaila) (I ain't endorsing either btw)? Why is there a need for Jagiello? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Calgacus, better yet, why is their a need for Jogaila? Also, which blatantly partisan users are you reffering to, hopefully not myself?
- Dr. Dan, Ladislaus or Wladyslaw is quibbling because it's the same name, either one works for me. Who is saying to use Rzym instead of Rome, or Lwów instead of L'viv? I noticed you use the same tack in all of your responses Dr. Dan, sarcasm with thinly veiled allusions as to the motives of those that question the logic of using Jogaila as the name of the article, but no factual arguments. So please enlighten me, go and copy and paste the scholarly arguments you base your belief upon, I was unable to find them in the archives. I guarantee you won't do it, you'll just write another witty comment degrading the motives of thos ethat question you. But why won't you? Have they been erased? If you don't like the Stalin analogy, how about Pope John Paul II, should the article about him keep his Polish name Karol Wojtyla or the name that was popularly known throughout the world? I think that example is perfectly on point.--Milicz 03:39, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- I can't stand it when blatantly partisan users pretend to be objective. Piotrus and some of the others were on a good course ... by at least attempting discussion and negotiations. Renata, thanks for trying to steer this on a good path. Piotrus, wouldn't Wladyslaw II (Jogaila) be better than Wladyslaw II Jagiello (Jogaila) (I ain't endorsing either btw)? Why is there a need for Jagiello? Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 03:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Milcz, Ladislaus and Wladyslaw are not quibbling because they are the same name, they are quibbling because one is the common English version and the other is the Polish version. Jasne?Your "guarantee" that I won't do it (paste and copy for you, is on the money), you spent a "whole" hour looking, and you could't find Calgacus' scholarly arguments. Too bad! Re-read the arguments more slowly next time. Dr. Dan 03:54, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I was referring to you as partisan. And Milicz, the whole thing about crap Pope John Paul II and Stalin-like analogies has been dealt with. Being head of the largest state in Europe west of the Mongols hardly equates to being a private citizen, the very idea could be interpreted as mildly insulting or even a downright ethnic slur. Milicz, if you are going to repeat these same trashy arguments, please understand how tedious and repetitive it becomes for other users. I'll tell you now that I have better things to do that waste time going over the same ground. It's blatantly obvious that a large bulk of users disagree in principle. If we all realize this now, we can all save ourselves heated bs-ridden argument, and instead try to find a consensus more acceptable to each side than either extreme is going to be. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- I am at a loss with you two, you get valid arguments and you answer with random thoughts by Jack Handy. You tell me to "re-read the arguments more slowly" instead of acknowledging the arguments don't exist (they don't, I've looked through all the archives) and you claim I'm some sort of partisan, equating a valid Karol Wojtyla analogy with an ethnic slur, which is absurd. Karol Wojtyla was a Cardinal, not a nameless private citizen, but even if he was a "private citizen" I still don't understand your logic or why you would find anything insulting in what I wrote. All I would ask from you two is for a succinct argument for your position, is that to much to ask?--Milicz 04:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- There's nothing there to understand. Dr. Dan-Calgacus's productions are all bombast, arrogance, profanities, and loose associations (the latter, a cousin to word salad). logologist|Talk 06:37, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- I am at a loss with you two, you get valid arguments and you answer with random thoughts by Jack Handy. You tell me to "re-read the arguments more slowly" instead of acknowledging the arguments don't exist (they don't, I've looked through all the archives) and you claim I'm some sort of partisan, equating a valid Karol Wojtyla analogy with an ethnic slur, which is absurd. Karol Wojtyla was a Cardinal, not a nameless private citizen, but even if he was a "private citizen" I still don't understand your logic or why you would find anything insulting in what I wrote. All I would ask from you two is for a succinct argument for your position, is that to much to ask?--Milicz 04:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I was referring to you as partisan. And Milicz, the whole thing about crap Pope John Paul II and Stalin-like analogies has been dealt with. Being head of the largest state in Europe west of the Mongols hardly equates to being a private citizen, the very idea could be interpreted as mildly insulting or even a downright ethnic slur. Milicz, if you are going to repeat these same trashy arguments, please understand how tedious and repetitive it becomes for other users. I'll tell you now that I have better things to do that waste time going over the same ground. It's blatantly obvious that a large bulk of users disagree in principle. If we all realize this now, we can all save ourselves heated bs-ridden argument, and instead try to find a consensus more acceptable to each side than either extreme is going to be. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 04:02, 8 September 2006 (UTC)