Ism schism (talk | contribs) →Can the editprotection finally be removed? Straw poll: comment on need to change editprotection |
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== Can the editprotection finally be removed? Straw poll == |
== Can the editprotection finally be removed? Straw poll == |
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Can the editprotection finally be removed? There are many editors who, with good faith and capable ability, wish to contribute to this article. They should not be deprived of the ability to edit this article because of only one or two editors who can not be civil. I am open to any and all comments, but I do believe the editprotection should be removed. Thanks. [[User:Ism schism|Ism schism]] ([[User talk:Ism schism|talk]]) 01:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC) |
Can the editprotection finally be removed? There are many editors who, with good faith and capable ability, wish to contribute to this article. They should not be deprived of the ability to edit this article because of only one or two editors who can not be civil. I am open to any and all comments, but I do believe the editprotection should be removed. Thanks. [[User:Ism schism|Ism schism]] ([[User talk:Ism schism|talk]]) 01:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC) |
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* '''Weak Support'''. I strongly oppose a full unlock, or even one that only allows established users. There have been several blocks which have accomplished nothing besides a delay in the endless bad faith edit wars. I would support, if it's possible, unlocking select editors because yes, this article badly needs grown-ups to edit it. The current monstrosity of a block, believe it or not, exists not because of the two people you're talking about.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AJoe_the_Plumber&diff=262125732&oldid=262022106] Nominations ought to be decided by an admin, though I doubt the admin who imposed the block, Tanthalas39, ought to do it, given that he recently went temporarily insane.[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Tanthalas39&oldid=273706358] The block expires April 5. I think my way of doing this is the only way to improve the article and prevent the inevitable flood of garbage from Collect, Mattnad, and various other unhelpful entities. [[User:SluggoOne|SluggoOne]] ([[User talk:SluggoOne|talk]]) 18:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC) |
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RfC: Current Occupation of Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher (aka Joe the Plumber)
A couple of editors want to keep calling SJW a "plumber" as his occupation in the lead and the infobox based on his past work. Attempts to reason with them have failed; when asked several times for sources that support for this position, they have not. Instead, they argue that he was previously a plumber (based on their interpretation of the dictionary definition), therefore he is a plumber.
Recent developments and more detailed research say otherwise:
- Per the lede paragraph "Wurzelbacher is currently promoting digital converter boxes for analog television,[1] his political watchdog group,[2] his charity, [3] and his book[4] he describes himself as "unemployed." [5] Note it does not say he's currently doing plumbing work at all.
- There is also considerable evidence he was never working legally as a plumber. In Ohio, there are rules about what's required to work legally as a plumber. Per Joe_the_Plumber#Plumbing_and_licensing, a section that recently was nearly unanimously endorsed in a recent RFC after an editor tied to eliminate it several times before being blocked. User:Collect usually picks out a union reps comment that Joe could legally work in parts of Ohio, but there are other official sources in that section that say he's not a plumber at all. The preponderance of the available evidence is that Joe was never, and cannot be a plumber in Ohio until he completes certain steps, including his apprenticeship. Of course, this only would matter if he were actually employed as a plumber, but he says he's not. Mattnad (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose to all reconsideration of this thirtieth bite at the apple The infobox does not say "current occupation." The discussion as to whether a person who acts as a plumber is a plumber has been fathomed multiple times now. The BLP/N consensus has not been challenged. The issue of "illegal" was dealt with by the union itself which said he could legally be a plumber in the townships. The issue as to whether a person hired as a plumber was a "plumber" was dealt with multiple times. This is the thirtieth "bite at the apple" on this, and each time it is worthy of WP:LEW. The change in the lede was against consensus, as you are well aware. Lastly this RfC improperly seeks to make a personal attack on an editor. Collect (talk) 16:43, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I like how you consistently claim to singlehandedly determine consensus here, Collect. You take WP:BOLD to a whole new level of boldness. Tan | 39 16:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Did you read the BLP/N discussion? [6] David Shankbone, Mosmof, Wikidemon, and more than a dozen others are part of my "singlehanded" consensus -- seems to me that they are not my sockpuppets, and their consensus does count. Thanks for removing your "singlehanded" slur ASAP. Collect (talk) 16:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I like how you consistently claim to singlehandedly determine consensus here, Collect. You take WP:BOLD to a whole new level of boldness. Tan | 39 16:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Hey Collect, where do I use the word "Illegal" here? Please stop misrepresenting my comments. That's unfair and not assuming good faith. Mattnad (talk) 17:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Your wording was "There is also considerable evidence he was never working legally as a plumber." Seems to me that the dictionary meaning of "illegal" was what was intended, but if you assure us that you did not mean "illegal" in any sense, then I will take you at your word. Collect (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry - I didn't know you didn't understand what quotation marks meant. My bad.Mattnad (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oh? Try looking at any manual of style. If I say "Mattnad said 'xxx'" then I am ascribing the exact words to you. In case you did not notice, I referred to the UNION REP's comments in that sentence. That is why the sentence was written as it was written. Is your umbrage dealt with? I accept your assurance that you did not mean to say nor imply "illegal" with regard to Joe's employment as a plumber. Thanks! Collect (talk) 19:07, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry - I didn't know you didn't understand what quotation marks meant. My bad.Mattnad (talk) 18:58, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Your wording was "There is also considerable evidence he was never working legally as a plumber." Seems to me that the dictionary meaning of "illegal" was what was intended, but if you assure us that you did not mean "illegal" in any sense, then I will take you at your word. Collect (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per Collect. Joe the Plumber is a plumber. Despite claims to the contrary, it has been shown that he can legally work as a plumber under the supervision of a licensed plumber, which he did while working for Newell. However, he can't legally hire out as an independent plumber without proper licenses. Also, he's a plumber per dictionary definitions previously supplied and as generally used in society, based on those definitions. He may be a currently unemployed plumber, as well as a wannabe author and a wannabe politician, and a wannabe whatever else. If he's serious about not continuing as a plumber, and earns income from these new jobs, then he's a former plumber. Just as Obama is a former Senator. Most people change occupations; if nothing else, from student to something that brings in income. Saying that one is an author doesn't mean one is an author until one writes and publishes. — Becksguy (talk) 18:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- "Just as Obama is a former Senator" - but you are saying Joe is currently' a plumber (unemployed, unlicensed, etc) - how do you reconcile this?Mattnad (talk) 00:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry I wasn't clear. He is still a plumber if he is just temporarily unemployed, for example by collecting unemployment insurance as a plumber. Or he is a former plumber if he doesn't intend to return to working as a plumber, for example by having resigned as Obama did. — Becksguy (talk) 07:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well, we're all speculating on what Joe might want to be. But I can also speculate that since he's now well known he can't be a plumber until he gets with the program. From now on he can't fly under the radar and work outside the law the way we did before (not withstanding the very hypothetical possibility that he might be able to work in the townships, IF, he were employed by a licensed plumber).Mattnad (talk) 20:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry I wasn't clear. He is still a plumber if he is just temporarily unemployed, for example by collecting unemployment insurance as a plumber. Or he is a former plumber if he doesn't intend to return to working as a plumber, for example by having resigned as Obama did. — Becksguy (talk) 07:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per Collect. This is a campaign meme exaggerated beyond all sense. The guy is obviously a plumber by any reasonable definition. I've never seen the standard of licensing quibbles applied in any other article. John Glenn says his occupation is "astronaut". John McCain says "naval aviator". I could go on and on. Kelly hi! 18:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Question What does Joe himself consider his current occupation to be? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:17, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Query -- as the infobox does not say "current occupation" and "current" is not required for (say) John Glenn, what difference does "current" make here? Beethoven's "current occupation" is "decomposing." Collect (talk) 18:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Except Joe is still among the living. So if he were to fill in the infobox himself, what what he put under "occupation"? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I do not have his 1040, so we are forced to surmise what he would say his gainful employment had been - and the surmise would have to use the last one which was actually stated -- "plumber." "Unemployed" is not an "occupation" - it is a state of employment only. Unless you consider "unemployed actors" (somewhere around 95% or so) to not be "actors" or the like? I do suspect John Glenn is not currently employed as an astronaut, right?
- Except Joe is still among the living. So if he were to fill in the infobox himself, what what he put under "occupation"? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Query -- as the infobox does not say "current occupation" and "current" is not required for (say) John Glenn, what difference does "current" make here? Beethoven's "current occupation" is "decomposing." Collect (talk) 18:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Not a plumber - Not licensed and cannot be licensed unless he does some work. I remember all of this hubbub that if he's working, then he's a plumber. Collect said that over and over and over. He's not a plumber according to Ohio officials and other sources, and he's not working. Oh, and John Glenn is a former astronaut [7] according to NASA. So Collect, you are wrong again.Bruno23 (talk) 19:54, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Current infobox on WP John Glenn says ... "astronaut." As we said. So much for calling me wrong on what the infobox usage for John Glenn is. Collect (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think his point, per the link to the NASA website, is that reliable sources say otherwise and that John Glen is not, in fact, an astronaut. Of course Collect cherry-picks his examples from Wikipedia (which is not a RS on its own) and crows about it. Well done Collect: we know you're someone who would never let the facts get in the way of your conclusions. Now, why don't you run along to the Sarah Palin biography and get rid of the qualifier of "former" in front of "Former local news sportscasting" in the infobox, per your approach here.Mattnad (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- I stated what the WP infobox said, and I was told I was wrong in what the infobox said. Did that elide your notice? Last I checked, this is also an article in WP. If you want to change WP practice, in BLPs, then I suggest you propose those changes on the BLP board. Simple. Thanks! Collect (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think his point, per the link to the NASA website, is that reliable sources say otherwise and that John Glen is not, in fact, an astronaut. Of course Collect cherry-picks his examples from Wikipedia (which is not a RS on its own) and crows about it. Well done Collect: we know you're someone who would never let the facts get in the way of your conclusions. Now, why don't you run along to the Sarah Palin biography and get rid of the qualifier of "former" in front of "Former local news sportscasting" in the infobox, per your approach here.Mattnad (talk) 00:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- Current infobox on WP John Glenn says ... "astronaut." As we said. So much for calling me wrong on what the infobox usage for John Glenn is. Collect (talk) 20:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber, as per nominator. travb (talk) 03:13, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber. If Joe calls himself a plumber per the dictionary definition, he goes to jail for fraud. Joe is as qualified to call himself a plumber as he is to call himself the governor. SluggoOne (talk) 07:15, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber I disagree with the requirement that occupation must be a "current" employement, but SJW is not and has not been a "plumber" in Ohio (or any other state that I am aware of) in anything other than common misconception based on a misapplied nickname created from a hypothetical question. -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:10, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- He was a plumber. The claims that Joe the Plumber was never a plumber are just plain juvenile. Get over yourselves, seriously. Really, who are you to tell a guy who's been a plumber for years that he's not a plumber? Gimme a freakin' break... There's plenty of proof that he was operating under the law. In fact, the actual law was linked to -- apparently several times, but POV-pushers keep removing it.
However, it appears that he may be plumbing no more. It seems like he's soaked up this 15 minutes that was forced on him from multiple sources and moved on to other things, so it appears that he's a former plumber and should be indicated accordingly in the infobox and the lead paragraph. Since I'm pretty sure he's not Homer Simpson, I don't think he'll have a laundry list of former jobs so retaining information indicating his former trade is more than appropriate, especially since it's the source for his nickname (or sobriquet, whatever the hell the final word was on that). --Amwestover (talk|contrib) 04:00, 31 December 2008 (UTC) - Support. Not a plumber, apparently. The page already makes clear that he is considered a plumber for the purpose of public discourse about him, there's no need for it to be used inaccurately as his "official" occupation. csloat (talk) 19:15, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- If I were to just delete csloat's vote right up there, it would seem kind of crass. I'll just point out that this vote came a few hours after he was given a three-month block from editing what admin Penwhale called "any articles related to the 2008 US Presidential election, broadly construed for a mininum of three months." He knew that, too, since his vote came right in the middle of his discussion with Penwhale. Amwestover's vote came before he was given the same block, so his should stay. Any edits or input from either should be disregarded with due diligence, unless we think Joe the Plumber isn't relevant to the 2008 Presidential election. (Or if I'm incorrect when I suppose an admin has blocked both from contributing here, my mistake.) SluggoOne (talk) 21:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think they are both allowed to contribute to talk pages. Off topic, IMHO I think the 3 months block was a bit harsh. If a block was warranted, then a shorter period would have been worth trying. Mattnad (talk) 21:23, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I thought it was over the top, too, but when a block was suggested, a dozen editors weary of Amwestover and Sloat's constant edit warring enthusiastically supported it. There was literally nobody opposed to it except, of course, Amwestover. This feels like Amwestover is posting partisan whining with no real substance, and Sloat is following him around, opposing everything he does. While it looks like I was wrong (Penwhale: "You may use the talk pages of articles to discuss proposed changes"), I think this discussion has gotten silly enough without these two here to bring down the maturity level even more. They both voted, cancelling each other out, and, cruel as it may sound, I hope that's the end of input from them. SluggoOne (talk) 21:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- What the hell are you guys talking about? This page is on my watchlist, I saw the rfc in an edit summary and responded to the rfc; I'm not following amwestover around. I have no interest in interacting with Amwestover on this page too and the topic ban specifically encourages discussion on talk pages in any case; it only prohibits changing the articles. And frankly the block was a very strange action I haven't seen a precedent for at wikipedia; there was no sense of anyone even trying any alternative to blocking, and there wasn't even much of a discussion before the block was imposed, certainly no input was solicited or looked at from the two main parties involved. It's surreal. But there's no reason to assume that the only reason either of us is editing is to snipe at each other; we've had no interaction before the mccain page and I doubt our interests overlap enough beyond that to make it difficult for us to avoid each other after this. But please don't blow this even more out of proportion than it already is. csloat (talk) 22:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I thought it was over the top, too, but when a block was suggested, a dozen editors weary of Amwestover and Sloat's constant edit warring enthusiastically supported it. There was literally nobody opposed to it except, of course, Amwestover. This feels like Amwestover is posting partisan whining with no real substance, and Sloat is following him around, opposing everything he does. While it looks like I was wrong (Penwhale: "You may use the talk pages of articles to discuss proposed changes"), I think this discussion has gotten silly enough without these two here to bring down the maturity level even more. They both voted, cancelling each other out, and, cruel as it may sound, I hope that's the end of input from them. SluggoOne (talk) 21:43, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think they are both allowed to contribute to talk pages. Off topic, IMHO I think the 3 months block was a bit harsh. If a block was warranted, then a shorter period would have been worth trying. Mattnad (talk) 21:23, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Not a Plumber - not licensed. Outed when McCain made him a prop. Now unemployed. I'm not a doctor but a pretend to be one on TV. Enuf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.212.28.118 (talk) 19:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a Plumber i would say this negates collects claim of a consensus, but i am sure he would disagree. the man worked in plumbing (the field and the pipes) as an assistant- it is an insult to real plumbers everywhere to call this man who never bothered to complete an apprenticeship a plumber. Brendan19 (talk) 20:34, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a Plumber He was never a plumber to begin with. As soon as he became famous he quit his job (or may of been fired) because he has better things to do or he could not continue practicing as a plumber without a license. This is not complicated. The word got out he doesn't have a license and it was time for him to move on to bigger and better things. He is now an author. Good for him! QuackGuru (talk) 21:38, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Oppose and clarify my position: Since I was ask for my "professional" input [I'm mostly familiar with Florida law but that doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with other states, county or city laws] I give it another try.
- By (state) law he is just not a plumber but rather worked as a plumber under someone else's license.
- But what I was thinking the last days/weeks is the following:
- We just don't know his occupation so why not leave it out of the info box as it can explained in the article? And again, Joe is just not that kind of public figure to deserve his own BLP (at least in the past and right now) since he is not known by other than the (past) election coverage. That's why it is almost impossible to get reliable up-to-date info on him. So what we can't source we can't and shouldn't include here. Sounds simple and is simple but I know there are enough editors who are not willing to go this way. Very unfortunate.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:08, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a plumber though clearly worked in the past in contracting and plumbing. Just don't list any occupation. This category is important for clear professionals like barbers, architects, lawyers, construction workers and not ambiguous occs like journalism, economists. Licensing seems to be what we can use for consensus. LaidOff (talk) 14:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- I changed the sub heading to say unlicensed plumbing work to be consistent with the actual text of that portion of the article. The text says he was unlicensed and i.e. not a plumber. If the article's text is incorrect, i.e., in Ohio you can work without a plumber license, then change the article. I am not an Ohio lawyer. LaidOff (talk) 14:27, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a Plumber Whether he was is irrelevant. This is a BLP and he is not currently plumbing for income. He is not laid off waiting for another plumbing job. His life has been changed by fame. He is writing a book and speaks at events. People change occupations all the time. Why can't Joe? Garycompugeek (talk) 16:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a Plumer although I must say, I am stunned by the passion involved in this argument. I cannot believe that people care that much about the semantics of an occupation of a guy who we did not know 4 months ago and will little remember 4 years from now. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 00:13, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a Plumber It's inconsistent at best to call him a plumber. The guy has been widely denied that title by other professional plumbers and plumbers' associations. He's also widely lampooned in credible media sources as well as the public for NOT being a plumber, so why should the article decide to call him one in spite of public and professional opinion?
- Support: Not a Plumber He used to do some plumbing work; that doesn't make him once and always a plumber. Is Wikipedia going to start listing Michael Jackson's occupation as "King of Pop"? Rvcx (talk) 09:22, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- If there are a few holdouts who insist on altering Wiki-Reality, why not simply include the fact that his occupation listing is disputed? Seems like a reasonable compromise to me. 67.40.213.140 (talk) 07:06, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- Where is his occupation disputed? The fact that his occupation is disputed on this wikipedia talk page is not valid encyclopedia content (until it is covered in a reliable source). -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:24, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber - In January 2009, Wurzelbacher became a war correspondent for Pajamas Media.[1] From Israel, Wurzelbacher reports on the fighting between the Israeli Defence Forces and Hamas[2] and explores the Israeli experience of the conflict.[3] Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 20:29, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber - he was what is called a plumber's helper, that is, a guy who assists a licensed plumber but who has not personally attained that status. He's not a plumber or a former plumber or an ex-plumber. And before the fight starts about whether he's an author, please - being the subject of a ghosted "autobiography" does not an author make. —LisaSmall T/C 07:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- delete and salt - Does Wikipedia really need to completely edit-protect this page so that there can be a 2-week argument about whether he's a real plumber? AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 17:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not a plumber The state laws and guidelines clearly delineate what does and does not qualify someone to be a plumber. Just because he did some plumbing work in the past doesn't inherently qualify him to be a plumber, and especially not only being able to work under the supervision of a legally licensed plumber. If I stop by my friend's house and fix his sink using some rudimentary tools as a favor to him, does that make me a legit plumber? If he were to be called anything it would be a plumber's assistant. It's like calling a Physician's Assistant a doctor. For that matter, if you terminate your line of work, you're no longer anything but unemployed. For all intents and purposes, you were in the plumbing industry and would be again if you were to be hired by a plumbing business. Until then, you're not.
-Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 18:19, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber While some sources claim he was one, others say flat out that he wasn't. I don't think we really know for sure (is there any real evidence that he ever did actual plumbing work?), and in such a case, I'd support something along the lines of "describes/described himself as a plumber". Now that he is doing a variety of other stuff, listing those things seems to make perfect sense. And if there's no clear and simple thing to put in the infobox, I still don't see why it needs to be included in the infobox at all. The guy isn't notable because of his profession, he's notable because he became a public part of a political campaign. --Minderbinder (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber He was at one point a 'plumber's helper' if anything. Just because a person might have gone to medical school for four years and can provide some medical care doesnt make that person a doctor. There certiciation should be honored on WP the same way it is in real life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.140.22.117 (talk) 03:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- remove the occupation field. We don't need to say what his occupation is in the template - there is no guideline for that. If the issue is to complex to be described in two words, just leave it out of the infobox and discuss it ín the article. Zara1709 (talk) 14:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
- remove the occupation field. I think Zara1709 is right--the fact that Wurzelbacher's prior longtime occupation was as a plumber, or as a handyman who focused on plumbing (depending on whether you define "plumber" as "licensed plumber" or "person who does plumbing work") is a bit irrelevant to his current notability, which is as a media personality. IceCreamEmpress (talk) 04:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
- Support: Not a plumber Wikipedia Guidelines on categorising people says in part: "For some sensitive categories, it is better to think of the category as a set of representative and unquestioned examples..." Since this discussion clearly evidences the fact that Joe's categorisation as a plumber is not unquestioned, he should not be so categorised. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cottonshirt (talk • contribs) 08:09, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
- Remove the occupation field Agree with Zara1709 and IceCreamEmpress. His occupation is in flux at the moment due to his notariaty and cannot be adequately explained in the space the infobox allows. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.216.9.107 (talk) 01:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Long Overdue
I had been away from all of the arguments and WikiLawyering transpiring in here for a while. I tried to make something of the sobriquet vs. nickname argument, but couldn't. Then I got sick and set it aside and decided to move on while still considering alternatives. But it seems to me like this article as a whole has virtually completely strayed away from the Joe the Plumber aspect of things and become increasingly a biography of Mr. Wurzelbacher himself. In fact this article falls under WikiProject Biography and must follow the guidelines for articles on living people. For this reason, I suggest that the two concepts be separated from one another. I think this article ought to be renamed Samuel Joseph Wuzelbacher and a new article be created titled Joe the Plumber which would essentially explore the metaphorical side of things with each article of course making some reference to the other (this one retaining the meeting with Barack Obama and the subsequent coining of "Joe the Plumber" and the other mentioning the established origins of the moniker/sobriquet/nickname/whatever you wish to consider it). I think it's only fair to do that since Mr. Wurzelbacher has developed a rather extensive biography in a short period of time to officially deserve his own article and at the same time not lose sight of what made him famous in the first place. As a side note, I think it would be very helpful to phrase Obama's initial reference to "Joe the Plumber" and perhaps any such references by John McCain. What does everyone else say to this? -Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 18:49, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm coming into this cold, and have never edited the page. I've been following Wurzelbacher's saga, and I think that Alan's idea is a good one and may cut down on the petty bickering. There's more to Wurzelbacher than a plumber's assistant, and there's more to Joe the Plumber than Wurzelbacher.Kbk (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:45, 15 January 2009 (UTC).
- As of December 17 [8] there was pretty overwhelming opposition, but consensus can change. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:57, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
- Joe Wurzelbacher is ancilliary to Joe the Plumber. He made his name under that pseudonym; he hasn't tried to retire it or disassociate himself from it; most publications still use it to identify him, seen most recently in the story about him becoming a war correspondent. I don't see the problem with this article covering Joe the Plumber and the man behind the marketing gimmick: I think readers can handle it, and understanding would be made more difficult by either duplication or the dissemination of a body of text that isn't that great. I've been waiting for a while to know when this page will be unprotected - the infobox needs to go; we don't need a redundant infobox because it exists. Yohan euan o4 (talk) 22:39, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I'd raise the taxes just to spite him. >:3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.214.175.124 (talk) 07:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
- And that's related to the article how?
Meanwhile, who else wants to weigh in on this potential solution? It really is the only way all the issues can ever truly be resolved. I can't understand why there would be opposition. And yes, while JTP is part of Wurzelbacher, don't forget the name no longer applies to just him. There's also the American Middle Class aspect of all of this, and even further reaching areas of relevance, hence its own article focusing on what the Sobrikername stands for in its own merit. -Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 13:59, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
Edit request: Joe the Plumber - Fighting for the American Dream section needs to be fixed
The first sentence in the second paragraph begins, "An advance copy of his book sent to The Toledo Blade, wherein Wurzelbacher revealed more negative opinions about John McCain as a candidate: "
The article(to which Reference 88 links) from the Toledo Blade, however, states that the book "cost The Blade $24.95 plus $18.60 for shipping...". The current phrase in the article suggest that the Blade was given a complimentary copy of the book, but this is not the case.
I will leave it to you to correct the grammar in that paragraph. Thank you. 128.32.115.2 (talk) 02:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
Hullo! Could you please put a full stop after the Jr in "Sammy Davis, Jr"? Thankee x Gareth E Kegg (talk) 00:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
- Done Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 06:55, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
- Has anyone else bought a copy of the book? Having trouble finding anyone who has to compare the versions. 12.40.5.69 (talk) 23:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Joe has a bad relationship with CNN
I understand Joe the Plumber has a horrible relationship with Rick Sanchez and CNN.Should we add that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.92.32.168 (talk) 04:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Was Joe's Original Book Revised Already?
There appears to be some interesting discrepancies. Amazon.com has 2 different "Product Details" entries describing the hardcopy of Wurzelbacher's book. The original Amazon entry lists the publishing date as December 31, 2008, and the newer entry has the publishing date as February 6, 2009.
The Feb. 2009 edition is listed as 192 pages. The Dec. 2008 date doesn't specify page numbers.
However, the Toledo Blade book review, which occurred in December 2008, described their edition of the book as "a 180-page memoir." Was it "an advance copy" after all?
Did ole Joe or his publisher tone down or modify some of the anti-McCain or other ranting? Can anyone confirm from their copies if there are both 2008 and 2009 editions, and the page count? 63.226.215.1 (talk) 11:08, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually, "number of pages" is always an issue -- I suspect the 180 pages is the length of the actual text, while the other pages are blank, title, index and the like. I would not give it much concern. Collect (talk) 21:41, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
There was a lot of weirdness surrounding this guy and the actual release dates of his book. I think it merits consideration and is easily investigated. It would be great to hear from anyone who actually has a copy or copies.
More weirdness! Barnes and Noble lists the older December 2008 as the publication date. Very odd. Special:Contributions/67.40.179.31|67.40.179.31]] (talk) 04:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
OMG! There's even a different photo on each edition's book covers. Here are links to the old and new cover photos:
Dec. 2008 version: http://www.powells.com/biblio?PID=30149&cgi=product&isbn=0976974037
Feb. 2009 version: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0976974037/bpo01-20
67.40.179.31 (talk) 05:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- He looks less stoned/mentally handicapped on the new cover. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.40.5.69 (talk) 23:51, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Looks like they also hosed him off and had him shaved. But doesn't anyone own either book edition? 71.35.115.157 (talk) 23:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Edit Request: Misspelling
{{editprotected}}
The third sentence of the section Promoting digital converter boxes says, "In the adds" when it should say "In the ads." --Andrew Kelly (talk) 15:29, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
New Photo on New Book Edition: Wurzel Wears Brownshirt
Per the previous section, in the original hardcopy cover photo Wurzelbacher is wearing a yellow shirt. On the newer book's cover, Wurzelbacher wears a brown shirt. Loves his plumbing colors, does Joe. 67.40.179.31 (talk) 06:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
And the relevance to the BLP is? Collect (talk) 12:00, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm not an expert or anything on this, but aren't professional publishers supposed to get a different, unique ISBN for each variation of the book they publish? Changing the cover photo (and possibly altering the book's original content) seems like more of a change than just a straightforward, unaltered reprint of the original. Both the original and the new version issued less than two months later are listed with the first book's ISBN. If I were collecting Joe the Plumber memorabilia, I would feel jipped if I ordered the raw, original ISBN and got the new, slicked up and city-fied, (re-edited?) version.
Maybe Sam's publishing house is also unlicensed. Where's that snoopy bureaucrat’s task force when you need them? <g> 63.226.221.169 (talk) 23:25, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
- We are here to discuss how to improve this article, not to discuss what would happen if you were a memorabilia collector. Please keep your comments focused appropriately or they will be removed per WP:TPG. -- The Red Pen of Doom 23:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I would like the article to be improved by mentioning that Joe's book has at least one variant edition. So far, we've confirmed there are in fact two different publishing dates, and that they each have different hardcopy cover photos.
I am also interested in hearing if the new version has changes in the text from the old version. Hopefully others on the Talk page might have either or both copies and are free to chime in on the topic using the Talk page? The article's accuracy would be greatly improved if this also turns out to be the case. 63.226.221.169 (talk) 23:47, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Incidentally, the memorabilia comment is simply to provide one example of why people would want to know if there is a different version of a book. It actually is of importance, hence the topic being raised for discussion. 63.226.221.169 (talk) 23:54, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
employment status
From the opening paragraph:
“ | [Joe the Plumber] describes himself as "unemployed." | ” |
From the last paragraph:
“ | Wurzelbacher works for Pajamas Media. | ” |
The citation for the claim in the first paragraph is from an article from December 20th of last year. The citation for the claim in the last paragraph is from an article from January 7th. Further, according to [9], Joe's continuing to give reports for PJTV. [10] even refers to the "Pajamas TV team" as including "Michelle Malkin, Glenn Reynolds, and Joe Wurzelbacher (aka Joe the Plumber)".
Long story short, I think it's safe to say that Joe the Plumber is very much employed and I think the unemployment bit needs to be removed from the opening paragraph. TerraFrost 21:24, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Per [11], the final phrase of the lede section "he describes himself as "unemployed."[1]" should be removed from the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 21:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
- More evidence: [12]. Check out the last paragraph. That ad is running fairly frequently on Little Green Footballs - a website founded by one of PJTV's founders. TerraFrost 15:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that it's a content issue (and I'm not sure why the article is protected either), however, given that he does have some form of income, I believe his own possible opinions towards the job are somewhat irrelevant and should not be given an inordinate amount of weight.
- Obama once said he visited 57 states [13]. Should that be included in the opening paragraphs for his article, as well? TerraFrost 19:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- Even if it is a content issue, there have been no editors voicing opinion to keep the current content, and so can one assume silence = consensus for the proposed change? -- The Red Pen of Doom 19:25, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- Obama once said he visited 57 states [13]. Should that be included in the opening paragraphs for his article, as well? TerraFrost 19:11, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
why is this article protected?
The most contentious thing I see on the current talk page is... a discussion of whether or not this person should be called Joe the Plumber or Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher. The last vote cast was cast over a month ago. Which kinda begs the question... why is this article still protected? TerraFrost 19:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
- While the most recent contention was a month ago, this article has been the subject of numerous edit wars that have each ended in a longer period of the article being locked.-- The Red Pen of Doom 19:22, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Can't the edit war people just be banned or something? A shame to let a few badly behaved editors wreck the whole article's improvement. 208.54.14.28 (talk) 03:35, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
Judicial Watch lawsuit
- The below section, under the title "Judicial Watch lawsuit" needs to be added to this article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:24, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
{{editprotected}}
On March 5, 2009, on behalf of Joe Wurzelbacher, Judicial Watch filed a lawsuit in a U.S. District Court in Columbus[4] charging that Helen Jones-Kelley, and fellow ODJFS employees Fred Williams and Doug Thompson, improperly searched "confidential state databases" in an attempt to retaliate against Wurzelbacher's criticizism of then-presidential candidate Barack Obama.[4] The lawsuit claims that "officials of the State of Ohio violated Mr. Wurzelbacher's constitutional rights by illegally accessing confidential information from its official databases,"[5] and that "Wurzelbacher suffered emotional distress, harassment and embarrassment as a result of the search."[6] Tom Fitton, the president of Judicial Watch, stated "no American should be investigated for simply asking a question of a public official."[7] The lawsuit seeks unspecified punitive damages.[6]
- Support I support adding the above text to the article. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 23:41, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
How strange! User:Ism schism requested a {{editprotected}} change to an article, then the same user supported and affirmed that his suggestion should be made. Is that how Wikipedia is supposed to work? I'm new at this and it seems suspicious to me.63.226.216.139 (talk) 05:23, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- The addition seems timely and accurate, and is worded neutrally. Might I ask how you would have written the clearly relevant material? Collect (talk) 10:30, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Might I ask how someone can get an entire paragraph added when I can't even get five words removed? TerraFrost 22:04, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Unlike Ism schism's proposal - which was only endorsed by him - my proposal is endorsed by two people - myself and User:TheRedPenOfDoom [14]. Given that no one has expressed opposition to my proposal, the question still stands. Why does CapitalR get a paragraph added when he's the only person who's supported it's addition and I can't get a mere five words removed, even though there are two people who support it? TerraFrost 16:54, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
- Our newcomer does have a point there. How can you vote on your own proposal? The context aside, if you propose a change, then you must leave it to others to vote on, no?
- And I think the editlock can finally be dropped. What's left to fight about? No more usage of sobriquet (I tried), he's not a plumber (or turd gurgler) and he's probably officially employed, so let's be a little more civil in this highly biographical article.
-Alan 24.184.184.130 (talk) 00:59, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Because Wikipedia decisions are not settled by voting. Decisions are made by community consensus based on policy. WP:VOTE. -- The Red Pen of Doom 01:09, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
Can the editprotection finally be removed? Straw poll
Can the editprotection finally be removed? There are many editors who, with good faith and capable ability, wish to contribute to this article. They should not be deprived of the ability to edit this article because of only one or two editors who can not be civil. I am open to any and all comments, but I do believe the editprotection should be removed. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 01:44, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Weak Support. I strongly oppose a full unlock, or even one that only allows established users. There have been several blocks which have accomplished nothing besides a delay in the endless bad faith edit wars. I would support, if it's possible, unlocking select editors because yes, this article badly needs grown-ups to edit it. The current monstrosity of a block, believe it or not, exists not because of the two people you're talking about.[15] Nominations ought to be decided by an admin, though I doubt the admin who imposed the block, Tanthalas39, ought to do it, given that he recently went temporarily insane.[16] The block expires April 5. I think my way of doing this is the only way to improve the article and prevent the inevitable flood of garbage from Collect, Mattnad, and various other unhelpful entities. SluggoOne (talk) 18:07, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- ^ ""Joe The War Correspondent"". The Guardian. 2009-01-07. Retrieved 2009-01-07.
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(help) - ^ ""Joe The War Correspondent?"". CBS News. 2009-01-07. Retrieved 2009-01-07.
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(help) - ^ ""Joe the plumber headed to Middle East"". CNN. 2009-01-07. Retrieved 2009-01-07.
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(help) - ^ a b ""'Joe the Plumber' sues 3 in database inquiry"". The Western Star. 2009-03-06. Retrieved 2009-03-09.
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(help) - ^ ""Judicial Watch Files Civil Rights Lawsuit on Behalf of "Joe the Plumber""". MSNBC. 2009-03-05. Retrieved 2009-03-09.
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(help) - ^ a b ""Judicial Watch Files Civil Rights Lawsuit on Behalf of "Joe the Plumber""". The Associated Press. 2009-03-05. Retrieved 2009-03-09.
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(help) - ^ ""'Joe the Plumber' sues 3 former state officials"". The Columbus Dispatch. 2009-03-05. Retrieved 2009-03-09.
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