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:Seems better suited for the article about the dam, if we have it. [[Wikipedia:But for Napoleon, it was Tuesday]] [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 03:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
:Seems better suited for the article about the dam, if we have it. [[Wikipedia:But for Napoleon, it was Tuesday]] [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 03:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
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::I'm letting the editors here know that RBL2000 has [[Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#RBL2000 continues WP:POLEMIC behavior on Venezuelan articles|an open incident report]] regarding [[WP:POLEMIC]] in Venezuelan articles. --[[User:Jamez42|Jamez42]] ([[User talk:Jamez42|talk]]) 09:36, 28 February 2019 (UTC) |
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When exactly does Bolsonaro become President?
Does Bolsonaro becomes the 38th President at midnight January 1, 2019 or latter in the day, when he's sworn in. The article at List of Presidents of Brazil seems to suggest the former. GoodDay (talk) 23:52, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
- I already explained to you. That article is wrong. The president-elect doesn’t sleep on December 31 and wakes up president on January 1. It’s not automatic. The ceremony is not merely symbolic, it has to occur in order for the candidate to become president, which is why the constitution establishes a maximum amount of 10 days from January 1 for him to take office. Thus, Michel Temer is president until January 1, not December 31. --Lecen (talk) 00:49, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
- I realize that you already explained it to me. However, there's some editors out there who disagree with you. I just wish I could find a forum where I could get a consensus for this topic. GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
- Which is the significance of that detail for this article, anyway? Seems better suited for the President of Brazil one. Cambalachero (talk) 22:18, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
- I realize that you already explained it to me. However, there's some editors out there who disagree with you. I just wish I could find a forum where I could get a consensus for this topic. GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
- I'm fairly certain this is a case similar to U.S. presidential inaugurations. Donald Trump wasn't POTUS at 9 am January 20, 2017. He was POTUS at noon of that day. There will be an inauguration ceremony on January 1, 2019, in which the outgoing president will transfer the office to the new president. As such, Bolsonaro will become president on January 1, and Michel Temer will also leave the presidency that day. NoMoreHeroes (talk) 05:46, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
- If only you could persuade the folks, over at List of presidents of Brazil, who insist on the mid-night exchange. GoodDay (talk) 13:12, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
@Antonio Basto:, you may be interested in this discussion. GoodDay (talk) 13:16, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- In Brazil, unlike the United States, there is no mention of the time within a date (e.g. noon) when a term of office starts. The only mention in the Constitution and in laws is of the date when the term starts (January 1st, in the case of the President and Vice-President, and other Executive officeholders), and that the term lasts four years. As such, the official interpretation is that the term of office begins together with the date, at midnight, and that the former President's term ends with the expiration of the date 31 December, at midnight. One has to distinguish between the start of the term and the moment the new President takes possession of the office. The term starts at midnight, but the new President enters the office only when he takes the oath of office. Tancredo Neves's term started on March 15, 1985, but he was in hospital (and would go on to die without ever appearing before Congress to take the constitutional oath). A vice-president suceeds to the Presidency when his predecessor dies or resigns, but although his term of office then starts he still needs to take the constitutional oath and in 1954 several days elapsed between the death of Vargas and the oath of Café Filho. Café Filho could take office at any time from 24 August 1954, but he remained as acting president until 3 September 1954, when he took the oath of office. Similary, a new President's term starts at midnight on January 1st but he can take office at the time of his choosing. Indeed, some State Governors have opted to have inaugurations in the early hours of January 1st, very soon after midgnight, so that they could later travel to Brasília to be present at the presidential inaguration on the same date (see: https://exame.abril.com.br/brasil/governador-do-acre-toma-posse-na-hora-da-virada/). According to that official line of interpretation (that terms of office run from January 1st to December 31 four years later), the official investiture documents and de declarative announcement made by the President of Congress (or of a Legislative Assembly of a State, in the case of a gubernatorial inauguration, or of a City Council, in the case of a mayoral inauguration) specifies that the person is invested for a term of office "from January 1st 2011 to December 31 2014" (the years stated are examples). In Brazil, unlike in the US, there is a written investiture document that the new officeholder needs to sign: for instance the President-elect takes the oath of office before Congress; then he is declared by the President of Congress to be invested "for the term of office from January 1st 20XX to December 31 20XY", and then an instrument of investiture is read out and signed. The instruments of investiture also mention the dates of the beggining and end of the presidential term (see the image of the instrument of investiture for Lula's second term: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg). The official investiture document shows that Lula, in his second term, was invested for a four-year period that would end on 31 December 2010 ("trinta e um de dezembro de dois mil e dez", literally, Trirty First of December Two Thousand and Ten). So, the end of term on December 31 is explcitly recorded in the official congressional investiture document. Thus, always, on inauguration day, for a few hours (from midnight until the time the President takes the oath), the former President is no longer President and the incoming President is already within his presidential term, but hasn't taken office yet. Also, one has to note that the former President is allowed to use the presidential palace and the presidential sash until the point in the investiture ceremonies when he passes the sash to his successor and leaves Planalto Palace as a matter of ceremony and protocol only: in reality, legally, the term of office ends on 31 December, and the successor's term then begins together with the date of January 1st, and the President-elect then enters into office by taking the constitutional oath before Congress. Also, the ceremony for the transfer of the presidential sash takes place in the Planalto Palace, the seat of the Executive Branch, usually more than one hour after the Congressional ceremony during which the new President took the oath, signed the investiture document and delivered his inaugural address. Yet the former President is allowed to keep using the sash until its solemn delivery to the new president precisely because the sash transfer ceremony is only a symbolic act of the peaceful sucesssion of governments, when in reality the term of the former President has already concluded and the new President was already sworn in before Congress. No outgoing President of Brazil has ever attempted to sign any kind of order, decree or presidential act in the early hours of January 1st before the swearing in of the new President, precisely because it is known that the term of office expires on 31 December. So Brazilian Presidents issue their last minute actions on 31 December, and those actions are usually published in an extra edition of the official journal in the late hours of 31 December (unlike outgoing U.S. Presidents who can sign presidential actions in the morning of inauguration day because they are still Presidents until noon). Each country has its laws and customs, and in Brazil the official documentation clearly points to the end of term on 31 December. Antonio Basto (talk) 17:57, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- Further to the above message, and more to the specific point on the moment when one becomes President: the Constitution is clear on three separate facts: a) the presidential term lasts for four years and begins on January 1st of the year following the election (article 82); b) the President takes possession of the office by taking the constitutional oath before a joint session of Congress (article 78); c) the office of the President or of the Vice-President is declared vacant if any of them fail to assume the office after ten days of the start of the presidential term, except if they were prevented from taking possession of the office due to a justified cause of vis maior, force majeure (art. 78, sole paragraph). Thus, the inauguration ceremony before Congress is necessary and substantive. It is not only symbolic. The President-elect needs to take the constitutional oath to take posession of the presidential office. Before that he cannot execute any of the powers of that office. And there is the question of the 10-day deadline to take the oath, counting from the start of the new presidential term. But the finished presidential term ends on December 31 regardless. What happens if a President-elect fails to take the oath on January 1st is that his Vice-President is sworn in as Vice-President, and then immediately becomes Acting President (that is what happened in 1985 when Tancredo Neves, for good cause, failed to make it to his inauguration). If ten days pass, then: a) Congress will continue to wait, if there is just cause; b) Congress will declare the office vacant and the Vice-President will succeed as President, if the delay is not due to a just cause. But in no case the former President continues in office after 31 December. There is no question of the former President continuing in office beyond his four year term because the successor has failed to take the oath. That is impossible. The term expires at the end of four years, on 31 December. If a President-elect fails to be inaugurated on January 1st, his running mate will be inaugurated as Vice-President and will become Acting President at once. If both the President elect and his running mate were to fail to take office, then the other officers in the line of succession (the President of the Chamber of Deputies, etc), would step in as Acting President. But in no case the outgoing President and Vice-President would continue in office beyond 31 December. Those rules also make clear the distinction between two things: one is the start of a new Presidential term, that happens on 1 January on midnight, the other is the moment when a new President takes posession of the office (which happens when, at a ceremony before Congress, the President-elect takes the constitutional oath and enters into the office. This, of course, in normal circumnstances also takes place on January 1st, but can happen at 10 a.m., at 14 p.m, at 16 p.m., or whatever). In any case, the former president and the former vice-president have their mandates expired at the end of the date of 31 December. Also, the only part of the complex inauguration ceremonies that is substantive is the taking of the oath before Congress. The transfer of the presidential sash, and several other ceremonies are not substantive. As such, in non planned inaugurations due to death, impeachment or resignation of a President, only the essential taking of the oath before Congress takes place, with the declaration of investiture and the signing of the investiture document, but without the assumption of the presidential sash, without military ceremonies, etc. Antonio Basto (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- This is a moot discussion. Bolsonaro will be sworn in January 1. Whether he becomes president automatically or only after he is sworn in, the date his presidency begins is the same. Unless this information affects what the article should say, I suggest we end it. There is no issue about it in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed. There was a slightly different discussion about the end of term date (if terms end on December 31 or on January 1st when the new president is sworn in), but: a) this discussion was more relevant for the article List of Presidents of Brazil than for this article about Jair Bolsonaro (becuase the discussion affected all end of term dates in the list of Presidents) and b) there is official proof, in the language of the actual investiture document that Presidents sign, that the term ends on December 31. As for the question of when one becomes President, I agree that, per the Constitution, one only becomes President when the oath is taken (the automatic start of the four year presidential term at midnight is one thing, and the assumption of office, by taking the oath before Congress, is another). But I agree that the point is of little importance, since both facts (the start of the presidential term and the swearing-in of the President-elect as President, will in all likelihood both happen on January 1st 2019. Antonio Basto (talk) 01:22, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
- This is a moot discussion. Bolsonaro will be sworn in January 1. Whether he becomes president automatically or only after he is sworn in, the date his presidency begins is the same. Unless this information affects what the article should say, I suggest we end it. There is no issue about it in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 18:22, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- Further to the above message, and more to the specific point on the moment when one becomes President: the Constitution is clear on three separate facts: a) the presidential term lasts for four years and begins on January 1st of the year following the election (article 82); b) the President takes possession of the office by taking the constitutional oath before a joint session of Congress (article 78); c) the office of the President or of the Vice-President is declared vacant if any of them fail to assume the office after ten days of the start of the presidential term, except if they were prevented from taking possession of the office due to a justified cause of vis maior, force majeure (art. 78, sole paragraph). Thus, the inauguration ceremony before Congress is necessary and substantive. It is not only symbolic. The President-elect needs to take the constitutional oath to take posession of the presidential office. Before that he cannot execute any of the powers of that office. And there is the question of the 10-day deadline to take the oath, counting from the start of the new presidential term. But the finished presidential term ends on December 31 regardless. What happens if a President-elect fails to take the oath on January 1st is that his Vice-President is sworn in as Vice-President, and then immediately becomes Acting President (that is what happened in 1985 when Tancredo Neves, for good cause, failed to make it to his inauguration). If ten days pass, then: a) Congress will continue to wait, if there is just cause; b) Congress will declare the office vacant and the Vice-President will succeed as President, if the delay is not due to a just cause. But in no case the former President continues in office after 31 December. There is no question of the former President continuing in office beyond his four year term because the successor has failed to take the oath. That is impossible. The term expires at the end of four years, on 31 December. If a President-elect fails to be inaugurated on January 1st, his running mate will be inaugurated as Vice-President and will become Acting President at once. If both the President elect and his running mate were to fail to take office, then the other officers in the line of succession (the President of the Chamber of Deputies, etc), would step in as Acting President. But in no case the outgoing President and Vice-President would continue in office beyond 31 December. Those rules also make clear the distinction between two things: one is the start of a new Presidential term, that happens on 1 January on midnight, the other is the moment when a new President takes posession of the office (which happens when, at a ceremony before Congress, the President-elect takes the constitutional oath and enters into the office. This, of course, in normal circumnstances also takes place on January 1st, but can happen at 10 a.m., at 14 p.m, at 16 p.m., or whatever). In any case, the former president and the former vice-president have their mandates expired at the end of the date of 31 December. Also, the only part of the complex inauguration ceremonies that is substantive is the taking of the oath before Congress. The transfer of the presidential sash, and several other ceremonies are not substantive. As such, in non planned inaugurations due to death, impeachment or resignation of a President, only the essential taking of the oath before Congress takes place, with the declaration of investiture and the signing of the investiture document, but without the assumption of the presidential sash, without military ceremonies, etc. Antonio Basto (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
- In Brazil, unlike the United States, there is no mention of the time within a date (e.g. noon) when a term of office starts. The only mention in the Constitution and in laws is of the date when the term starts (January 1st, in the case of the President and Vice-President, and other Executive officeholders), and that the term lasts four years. As such, the official interpretation is that the term of office begins together with the date, at midnight, and that the former President's term ends with the expiration of the date 31 December, at midnight. One has to distinguish between the start of the term and the moment the new President takes possession of the office. The term starts at midnight, but the new President enters the office only when he takes the oath of office. Tancredo Neves's term started on March 15, 1985, but he was in hospital (and would go on to die without ever appearing before Congress to take the constitutional oath). A vice-president suceeds to the Presidency when his predecessor dies or resigns, but although his term of office then starts he still needs to take the constitutional oath and in 1954 several days elapsed between the death of Vargas and the oath of Café Filho. Café Filho could take office at any time from 24 August 1954, but he remained as acting president until 3 September 1954, when he took the oath of office. Similary, a new President's term starts at midnight on January 1st but he can take office at the time of his choosing. Indeed, some State Governors have opted to have inaugurations in the early hours of January 1st, very soon after midgnight, so that they could later travel to Brasília to be present at the presidential inaguration on the same date (see: https://exame.abril.com.br/brasil/governador-do-acre-toma-posse-na-hora-da-virada/). According to that official line of interpretation (that terms of office run from January 1st to December 31 four years later), the official investiture documents and de declarative announcement made by the President of Congress (or of a Legislative Assembly of a State, in the case of a gubernatorial inauguration, or of a City Council, in the case of a mayoral inauguration) specifies that the person is invested for a term of office "from January 1st 2011 to December 31 2014" (the years stated are examples). In Brazil, unlike in the US, there is a written investiture document that the new officeholder needs to sign: for instance the President-elect takes the oath of office before Congress; then he is declared by the President of Congress to be invested "for the term of office from January 1st 20XX to December 31 20XY", and then an instrument of investiture is read out and signed. The instruments of investiture also mention the dates of the beggining and end of the presidential term (see the image of the instrument of investiture for Lula's second term: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg). The official investiture document shows that Lula, in his second term, was invested for a four-year period that would end on 31 December 2010 ("trinta e um de dezembro de dois mil e dez", literally, Trirty First of December Two Thousand and Ten). So, the end of term on December 31 is explcitly recorded in the official congressional investiture document. Thus, always, on inauguration day, for a few hours (from midnight until the time the President takes the oath), the former President is no longer President and the incoming President is already within his presidential term, but hasn't taken office yet. Also, one has to note that the former President is allowed to use the presidential palace and the presidential sash until the point in the investiture ceremonies when he passes the sash to his successor and leaves Planalto Palace as a matter of ceremony and protocol only: in reality, legally, the term of office ends on 31 December, and the successor's term then begins together with the date of January 1st, and the President-elect then enters into office by taking the constitutional oath before Congress. Also, the ceremony for the transfer of the presidential sash takes place in the Planalto Palace, the seat of the Executive Branch, usually more than one hour after the Congressional ceremony during which the new President took the oath, signed the investiture document and delivered his inaugural address. Yet the former President is allowed to keep using the sash until its solemn delivery to the new president precisely because the sash transfer ceremony is only a symbolic act of the peaceful sucesssion of governments, when in reality the term of the former President has already concluded and the new President was already sworn in before Congress. No outgoing President of Brazil has ever attempted to sign any kind of order, decree or presidential act in the early hours of January 1st before the swearing in of the new President, precisely because it is known that the term of office expires on 31 December. So Brazilian Presidents issue their last minute actions on 31 December, and those actions are usually published in an extra edition of the official journal in the late hours of 31 December (unlike outgoing U.S. Presidents who can sign presidential actions in the morning of inauguration day because they are still Presidents until noon). Each country has its laws and customs, and in Brazil the official documentation clearly points to the end of term on 31 December. Antonio Basto (talk) 17:57, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
As you can see, there continues to be a dispute. GoodDay (talk) 05:21, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- There is this source here that says when the president actually becomes president. He will officially take office at 3 pm (15:00). So, as you can see, the president elect does not become immidiatly "president in office" at midnight. There is a whole cerimony, before congress, and then before the people (where the old president gives the new one the presidential sash. It's worth noticing user GoodDay, that nobody here (expect me) presented reliable sources to back what they were saying (see WP:V). If there is a reliable source that says otherwise, please show it. Coltsfan (talk) 05:41, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- So every 4 years, the presidency is vacant for over half a day? GoodDay (talk) 05:42, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Nope. The old president is still president until the other one takes the office formally. He is sworn in and takes the oath of office at 3 pm, according to the source, and that's when he officially becomes president. Again, if there is a source to the contrary, please, show it. This website of the Brazilian Senate confirms what i said. See here. Absolutely no source says he is already president (with full powers) before he takes the oath of office. Coltsfan (talk) 05:48, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- You got your work cut out for you then. Every article related to the Brazilian presidency & vice presidency use midnight as the office changing date. GoodDay (talk) 05:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- That list in this wiki is actually wrong. The one in the portuguese wikipedia is more correct. As you can see there, the former presidents leaves office the day the new president steps in. Coltsfan (talk) 05:57, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Nearly all related articles use midnight. So, you got a lot of changes to make on hundreds of articles. GoodDay (talk) 06:01, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- So, what's your point? 100 mistakes makes a right? No wiki, aside for the english one, uses 'midnight' as the term limit. And i presented reliable sources, and that is always a plus per WP:V. Coltsfan (talk) 06:05, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- My point is, all the bios of the Brazil presidents & vice presidents, go by the 'midnight' change, including all related articles. If you want consistency? then you got some work to do. Best you start an Rfc on the whole matter, at the appropriate place. GoodDay (talk) 06:12, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- This dispute will only continue for a few hours, every four years, because people like to ignore the evidence contained in the instruments of investiture (termos de posse) themselves, official documents signed by the Congressional officers and the President. The reality is explained above in full. Others get their technically wrong information from many other sources. The other day, Globo TV was talking about presidential inaugurations and stated wrongly that the first one was in 1889. Of course not: there was no inauguration when Deodoro da Fonseca became Head of the Provisional Government in the military coup that proclaimed Brazil a Republic in 1889. The office of the President was only created in February 1891, the first presidential inauguration was in February 1891 and that is the first instrument of investiture in the first volume of the book containing all presidential instruments of investiture. There is actual image of a signed presidential investiture document above confirming the end of term date as 31 December. Michel Temer's last Decrees were dated 31 December, dismissing his entire Cabinet. Also, when midnight passed without a decree raising the minimum wage as authorized by law, internet articles rightly commented that Temer had failed to raise the wage and had left this decision for the incoming Bolsonaro govenrment. Antonio Basto (talk) 09:37, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Funny how this argument don't fly on portuguese wikipedia, of all places. Funny that you say that, without presenting sources and everyone accepts it. Meanwhile, i showed a source from the freaking brazilian senate itself, still, not enough. It' simple: without sources, this is original research. Plain and simple. Coltsfan (talk) 11:51, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Funny how you're not making changes to the other Brazilian presidents & vice presents bios articles. For example: You've yet to change December 31, 2018 to January 1, 2019 at Michel Temer. -- GoodDay (talk) 12:02, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's hilarious. But still, do you got any source? By the way, is it still necessary in wikipedia, when you change something in a article, to present sources about the matter or we're past that and you can write anything you want as long as it appears to "make sense"? i genuinely want to know. Coltsfan (talk) 12:06, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Turning once again to the question of sources: 1) Here is a link to President Lula's instrument of investiture for his second term, mentioning Thirty First December Twenty Ten as the end of term date: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg ; 2) Here you can browse the Diary of the National Congress of 1 September 2016, containing the full transcript of the joint session of 31 August 2016, and you will see that the President of Congress declared, after Michel Temer's oath: "Declaro empossado no cargo de Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Excelentíssimo Senhor Presidente Michel Temer, para o período de 31 de agosto de 2016 a 31 de dezembro de 2018." (I declare invested in the office of President of the Federative Republic of Brazil the Most Excellent Mr. Michel Temer, for the period from 31 August 2016 to 31 December 2018) - http://legis.senado.leg.br/diarios/PublicacoesOficiais ; 3) here you can watch the video of the Congressional Joint session, and witness the President of Congress saying the same thing at 7 minutes 20 seconds until 7 minutes 44 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNNdXnHYkg Antonio Basto (talk) 13:28, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- EXPAND your argument to all the Brazilian presidents & all the Brazilian vice presidents. Instead of singling out this 'one' article. GoodDay (talk) 12:10, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- You can't find a source, can you? Yeah, thats quite a pickle. Unfortunately for you, no source equals WP:OR. Per WP:V: Readers must be able to check that any of the information within Wikipedia articles is not just made up. This means all material must be attributable to reliable, published sources. Coltsfan (talk) 12:16, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, it's hilarious. But still, do you got any source? By the way, is it still necessary in wikipedia, when you change something in a article, to present sources about the matter or we're past that and you can write anything you want as long as it appears to "make sense"? i genuinely want to know. Coltsfan (talk) 12:06, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Funny how you're not making changes to the other Brazilian presidents & vice presents bios articles. For example: You've yet to change December 31, 2018 to January 1, 2019 at Michel Temer. -- GoodDay (talk) 12:02, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Funny how this argument don't fly on portuguese wikipedia, of all places. Funny that you say that, without presenting sources and everyone accepts it. Meanwhile, i showed a source from the freaking brazilian senate itself, still, not enough. It' simple: without sources, this is original research. Plain and simple. Coltsfan (talk) 11:51, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- So, what's your point? 100 mistakes makes a right? No wiki, aside for the english one, uses 'midnight' as the term limit. And i presented reliable sources, and that is always a plus per WP:V. Coltsfan (talk) 06:05, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Nearly all related articles use midnight. So, you got a lot of changes to make on hundreds of articles. GoodDay (talk) 06:01, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- That list in this wiki is actually wrong. The one in the portuguese wikipedia is more correct. As you can see there, the former presidents leaves office the day the new president steps in. Coltsfan (talk) 05:57, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- You got your work cut out for you then. Every article related to the Brazilian presidency & vice presidency use midnight as the office changing date. GoodDay (talk) 05:53, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Nope. The old president is still president until the other one takes the office formally. He is sworn in and takes the oath of office at 3 pm, according to the source, and that's when he officially becomes president. Again, if there is a source to the contrary, please, show it. This website of the Brazilian Senate confirms what i said. See here. Absolutely no source says he is already president (with full powers) before he takes the oath of office. Coltsfan (talk) 05:48, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- So every 4 years, the presidency is vacant for over half a day? GoodDay (talk) 05:42, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
How can I get through to you? DO THEM ALL or DON'T DO ANY OF THEM. GoodDay (talk) 12:18, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'm easy to get through. Look:
- Content added with source? Reliable.
- Content added with NO source? WP:OR.
- Like i said, if you are right, and i'm wrong, you shouldn't have any difficulty finding sources disproving me. Coltsfan (talk) 12:21, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- That's NOT what I'm talking about, NOW. I give up. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- For the love of God... i'm not asking for you to find Bolsonaro and ask him. All i'm asking is: you are making a change in the article. Great. Where did you get this information from? A news website? The man himself? A drunken guy from the street? Your dog? Where? Where are the sources? Can we write anything we want now in Wikipedia without sources? Did i miss the memo? Coltsfan (talk) 12:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Gonna try this again. I NO LONGER DISAGREE WITH YOUR EDITS. I'M TRYING TO GET YOU TO IMPLEMENT THEM ON ALL THE BRAZIL PRESIDENTS & VICE PRESIDENTS ARTICLES, where required. GoodDay (talk) 12:29, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Changes will be made, in good time. But this article is about Jair Bolsonaro. We are discussin him, not the others. Coltsfan (talk) 12:45, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Well then, don't make changes to Michel Temer. -- GoodDay (talk) 12:47, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- The information I provided is verifiable and meets wikipedia's verifiability standards. I provided links to official documents even. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia in English but its sources can be in other languages, and that's not against the verifiability policy. Now, this is an article about a Brazilian politician, and the article on the list of Presidents of Brazil is an article about the Brazilian Presidency. The Portuguese language is the official language of Brazil. The official documents are in Portuguese. There are editors here who are bilingual, and for those who aren't, and who can only understand English, they can simply copy and paste passages from the links in Portuguese to a translator such as Google Translate. That said, wikipedia in Portuguese is a terrible encyclopedia, filled with erroneous data, and with a standard of quality much lower than the English language wikipedia, and that is why I, in particular, choose to only contribute to the English language wikipedia. There is hope for the English language wikipedia, whereas I personnaly regard the Portuguese language wikipedia as unsalvable. Now, turning once again to the question of sources: 1) Here is a link to President Lula's instrument of investiture for his second term, mentioning Thirty First December Twenty Ten as the end of term date: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg ; 2) Here you can browse the Diary of the National Congress of 1 September 2016, containing the full transcript of the joint session of 31 August 2016, and you will see that the President of Congress declared, after Michel Temer's oath: "Declaro empossado no cargo de Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Excelentíssimo Senhor Presidente Michel Temer, para o período de 31 de agosto de 2016 a 31 de dezembro de 2018." (I declare invested in the office of President of the Federative Republic of Brazil the Most Excellent Mr. Michel Temer, for the period from 31 August 2016 to 31 December 2018) - http://legis.senado.leg.br/diarios/PublicacoesOficiais ; 3) here you can watch the video of the Congressional Joint session, and witness the President of Congress saying the same thing at 7 minutes 20 seconds until 7 minutes 44 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNNdXnHYkg Antonio Basto (talk) 13:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Not quite. Your "sources" kinda miss the mark. The official webpage of the Brazilian Senate said (like i already mentioned) that the president is only president after he takes the oath of office. I read your sources, and they are, at the very least, inconclusive. The Senate's site is unequivocally. Coltsfan (talk) 13:32, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Regarding the end of term dates of Brazilian Presidents: ok. This is the link to the official record of the Congressional Joint Sitting of 1 January 2019, held for the inauguration of President Bolsonaro and Vice-President Mourão: http://www.camara.leg.br/internet/escriba/escriba.asp?codSileg=54479 . This comes directly from the website of the Chamber of Deputies of Brazil. It is the official transcript of the Joint Congressional sitting held for the presidential swearing-in. It is recorded that the President of Congress said: "Com os poderes que me são outorgados pela Constituição Federal, declaro empossados nos cargos de Presidente e Vice-Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Exmo. Sr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro e o Exmo. Sr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, respectivamente, para o período de 1º de janeiro de 2019 a 31 de dezembro de 2022." You guys can copy paste this to Google Translate and see that in English it will read (with the usual Google Translate imperfections) "With the powers granted to me by the Federal Constitution, I hereby declare that the President and Vice-President of the Federative Republic of Brazil, Mr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro and his Exmo. Mr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, respectively, for the period from January 1, 2019 to December 31, 2022." A more correct translation would be "With the powers granted to me by the Federal Constitution, I hereby declare invested as President and Vice-President of the Federative Republic of Brazil, the Most Excellent Mr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro and the Most Excellent Mr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, respectively, for the period from January 1, 2019 to December 31, 2022." Antonio Basto (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
- In addition to that, the official transcript of yesterday's Joint Congressional sitting, in the link provided above (http://www.camara.leg.br/internet/escriba/escriba.asp?codSileg=54479), contains the transcript of the moment when the First Secretary of Congress read out the instrument of investiture that was signed by Mr. Bolsonaro and by the other authorities. The instrument of investiture has the following text: Às 15 horas dia 1º de janeiro de 2019, perante o Congresso Nacional, reunido em sessão conjunta de suas Casas, no plenário da Câmara dos Deputados, nesta cidade de Brasília, Capital da República Federativa do Brasil, sob a direção da Mesa do Congresso Nacional, presidida pelo Sr. Senador Eunício Oliveira e secretariada pelo Sr. Primeiro-Secretário, Deputado Giacobo, integrando ainda a Mesa o Presidente da Câmara dos Deputados, Deputado Rodrigo Maia, o Sr. Presidente do Supremo Tribunal Federal, Ministro Dias Toffoli, a Procuradora-Geral da República, Raquel Dodge, e o Primeiro-Vice-Presidente da Mesa do Congresso Nacional, Deputado Fábio Ramalho, compareceram o Sr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro e o Sr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, que, nos termos do art. 78 da Constituição Federal, foram solenemente empossados nos cargos de Presidente e Vice-Presidente da República, respectivamente, para os quais foram eleitos no dia 28 de outubro de 2018, e diplomados pelo Tribunal Superior Eleitoral no dia 10 de dezembro do mesmo ano, para o período de 1º de janeiro de 2019 a 31 de dezembro de 2022. Os empossados proferiram, na forma do citado artigo da Constituição, o seguinte compromisso: “Prometo manter, defender e cumprir a Constituição, observar as leis, promover o bem geral do povo brasileiro, sustentar a união, a integridade e a independência do Brasil.” E, de conformidade com o disposto no art. 65 do Regimento Comum do Congresso Nacional, Luiz Fernando Bandeira de Mello Filho, Secretário-Geral da Mesa do Senado Federal, lavrou o presente termo, que é assinado pelos empossados e pelos membros da Mesa que dirigiu os trabalhos da sessão. Just copy paste that to Google Translate, and you will confirm the following English Translation, CONFIRMING THAT THE END OF TERM DATE IS 31 DECEMBER 2022, NOT 1 JANUARY 2023: At 3:00 pm on January 1, 2019, before the National Congress, gathered in a joint session of their Houses, in the plenary of the Chamber of Deputies, in this city of Brasília, Capital of the Federative Republic of Brazil, under the direction of the National Congress Bureau , chaired by Mr. Senator Eunice Oliveira and secretary of the First Secretary, Deputy Giacobo, the President of the Chamber of Deputies, Deputy Rodrigo Maia, the President of the Federal Supreme Court, Minister Dias Toffoli, the Prosecutor -Gerald of the Republic, Raquel Dodge, and the First Vice-President of the Bureau of the National Congress, Deputy Fábio Ramalho, attended Mr. Jair Messias Bolsonaro and Mr. Antonio Hamilton Martins Mourão, who, according to art. 78 of the Federal Constitution, were solemnly sworn in as President and Vice President of the Republic, respectively, for which they were elected on October 28, 2018, and graduated by the Higher Electoral Court on December 10, the period from January 1, 2019 to December 31, 2022. The nominees issued, in the form of the aforementioned article of the Constitution, the following commitment: "I promise to maintain, defend and comply with the Constitution, observe the laws, promote the general good of the Brazilian people, sustain the union, integrity and independence of Brazil." And, in accordance with the provisions of art. 65 of the Common Regiment of the National Congress, Luiz Fernando Bandeira de Mello Filho, Secretary General of the Bureau of the Federal Senate, drafted the present term, which is signed by the delegates and members of the Bureau who directed the work of the session. Antonio Basto (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
- The information I provided is verifiable and meets wikipedia's verifiability standards. I provided links to official documents even. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia in English but its sources can be in other languages, and that's not against the verifiability policy. Now, this is an article about a Brazilian politician, and the article on the list of Presidents of Brazil is an article about the Brazilian Presidency. The Portuguese language is the official language of Brazil. The official documents are in Portuguese. There are editors here who are bilingual, and for those who aren't, and who can only understand English, they can simply copy and paste passages from the links in Portuguese to a translator such as Google Translate. That said, wikipedia in Portuguese is a terrible encyclopedia, filled with erroneous data, and with a standard of quality much lower than the English language wikipedia, and that is why I, in particular, choose to only contribute to the English language wikipedia. There is hope for the English language wikipedia, whereas I personnaly regard the Portuguese language wikipedia as unsalvable. Now, turning once again to the question of sources: 1) Here is a link to President Lula's instrument of investiture for his second term, mentioning Thirty First December Twenty Ten as the end of term date: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_do_presidente_do_Brasil#/media/File:Compromisso_constitucional_e_termo_de_posse_presidencial_Brasil_1jan2007.jpg ; 2) Here you can browse the Diary of the National Congress of 1 September 2016, containing the full transcript of the joint session of 31 August 2016, and you will see that the President of Congress declared, after Michel Temer's oath: "Declaro empossado no cargo de Presidente da República Federativa do Brasil o Excelentíssimo Senhor Presidente Michel Temer, para o período de 31 de agosto de 2016 a 31 de dezembro de 2018." (I declare invested in the office of President of the Federative Republic of Brazil the Most Excellent Mr. Michel Temer, for the period from 31 August 2016 to 31 December 2018) - http://legis.senado.leg.br/diarios/PublicacoesOficiais ; 3) here you can watch the video of the Congressional Joint session, and witness the President of Congress saying the same thing at 7 minutes 20 seconds until 7 minutes 44 seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piNNdXnHYkg Antonio Basto (talk) 13:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Well then, don't make changes to Michel Temer. -- GoodDay (talk) 12:47, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Changes will be made, in good time. But this article is about Jair Bolsonaro. We are discussin him, not the others. Coltsfan (talk) 12:45, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- Gonna try this again. I NO LONGER DISAGREE WITH YOUR EDITS. I'M TRYING TO GET YOU TO IMPLEMENT THEM ON ALL THE BRAZIL PRESIDENTS & VICE PRESIDENTS ARTICLES, where required. GoodDay (talk) 12:29, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- For the love of God... i'm not asking for you to find Bolsonaro and ask him. All i'm asking is: you are making a change in the article. Great. Where did you get this information from? A news website? The man himself? A drunken guy from the street? Your dog? Where? Where are the sources? Can we write anything we want now in Wikipedia without sources? Did i miss the memo? Coltsfan (talk) 12:26, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- That's NOT what I'm talking about, NOW. I give up. GoodDay (talk) 12:24, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:19, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
Needs rewrite: "throwing a wild variety"
The article states:
He also mentioned he would work to diminish the size and bureaucracy of the federal government by throwing a wild variety of deregulation measures.
This looks incorrect. I think it should read:
" ... by throwing out a wide variety of deregulation measures."
Karl gregory jones (talk) 22:40, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:06, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
Article is still serious flawed
Again, I’m here to point out that the article is serious flawed. In fact, it became increasingly worse since the election, with several quotes taken out of context, and several events described without proper background. Obviously, noting can be done here, since user Coltsfan has assumed ownership of the article and allows no one else to even attempt to improve it. --Lecen (talk) 13:49, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- Lecen, But Bolsonaro really said all of that dumb crap. How is it flawed? He said those things, and he did mean all of that! Why not help improve the article? Write about neutral things then Bageense (talk) 17:04, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Official Presidential Portrait
There was already published the official presidential portrait of the 38th President of Brazil:
It would be great if someone with special powers substituted the principal photograph of this article. Igor Dalmy (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- The official portrait of presidents is no longer free licence, if i'm not mistaken. Coltsfan (talk) 21:53, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
- To clarify: The contents of the Planalto web page are distributed under a Creative Commons BY ND license. Most CC licenses are acceptable in commons, but not that one, as derivative works must be allowed. --Cambalachero (talk) 22:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:
- Bolsonaro and Netanyahu in Rio de Janeiro in December 28, 2018.jpg (discussion)
- Official portrait of Jair Bolsonaro.jpg (discussion)
Participate in the deletion discussions at the nomination pages linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:21, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
This article is a perfect microcosm if Wikipedia.
Dozens of posts on the talk page about an inane detail (Does Bolsonaro. Evoke president at midnight or at noon? A riveting matter of great importance!)
And the article itself tries to smear the subject while sounding “encyclopedic”, since it has mostly been taken over by folks pushing their own political agenda. (While hiding behind selective quoting of “policy”, quotemining and using whatever rules that come in handy.)
Ah yes, there’s a reason why college professors tend to laugh, when students try to quote Wikipedia. And why Wikipedia hardly ever attracts new editors, outside the overwhelmingly white and middleclass male club. Who’ve spent years learning the art of wiki-politics and selective enforcement.
185.107.12.99 (talk) 21:47, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
Brazil's Bolsonaro praises late Paraguay dictator Stroessner
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/brazils-bolsonaro-praises-late-paraguay-dictator-stroessner-61336016 RBL2000 (talk) 21:44, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- WP:NOTNEWS? Coltsfan (talk) 22:09, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
- Seems better suited for the article about the dam, if we have it. Wikipedia:But for Napoleon, it was Tuesday Cambalachero (talk) 03:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm letting the editors here know that RBL2000 has an open incident report regarding WP:POLEMIC in Venezuelan articles. --Jamez42 (talk) 09:36, 28 February 2019 (UTC)