MeteorMaker (talk | contribs) m →Samaria: typos |
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*"Instead the government based its view on the map previously introduced by Clinton Bailey which envisaged three self-governing Palestinian enclaves, with an Israeli corridor in Samaria." Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Dawoud Sudqi El Alami. ''The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner's Guide'', Oneworld Publications, 2001, p. 86. |
*"Instead the government based its view on the map previously introduced by Clinton Bailey which envisaged three self-governing Palestinian enclaves, with an Israeli corridor in Samaria." Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Dawoud Sudqi El Alami. ''The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner's Guide'', Oneworld Publications, 2001, p. 86. |
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:There are hundreds more sources. Also, the term "Samaria" is an English, Western one, not an "Israeli" one. Israelis speak Hebrew. Please stop trying to force your [[WP:SOAP|political agenda]] into Wikipedia. Thanks. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 02:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
:There are hundreds more sources. Also, the term "Samaria" is an English, Western one, not an "Israeli" one. Israelis speak Hebrew. Please stop trying to force your [[WP:SOAP|political agenda]] into Wikipedia. Thanks. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 02:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
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::This is a copy and paste job from [[Talk:Samaria]], and has already been refuted there. The first seven quotes (from four sources) have conclusively been shown to be misrepresentations of the sources (plus one case (Lilly Weisbrod) of using an Israeli source as evidence of outside-Israel use of the term "Samaria"[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Samaria#Accuracy_disputed:_.22Samaria.22.2C_a_historical_or_modern_toponym.3F_The_Full_Discussion_edition.]. Why you bring them up again is difficult to understand. All of these sources use "West Bank" consistently, and "Samaria" only when describing settlers and their ideology or ambitions (in the Newsweek case, in a poetic title alluding to Bible-age Jewish history). Four of these four sources actually confirm the '''opposite''' position of yours: |
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::<blockquote>*''For political purposes, and despite the geographical imprecision involved, the annexationist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area not as the West Bank, but as Judea and Samaria.'' [http://books.google.com/books?id=dD-1Nm6NTHQC&pg=PA1#PPA205,M1]</blockquote> |
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::<blockquote>*''To the religious nationalist settlers, [the territories] are Judea and Samaria, the historical core of the ancient Jewish nation.''[http://books.google.com/books?id=h27UQhGY9nwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPA152,M1]</blockquote> |
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::<blockquote>*''[...]the building of Jewish communities in the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria as Jews refer it, commenced.'' [http://books.google.com/books?id=SFazbG_b6ysC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en&source=gbs_summary_r&cad=0#PPT287,M1]</blockquote> |
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::<blockquote>*''And it stretches to the fanatical Jewish chauvinists who want to expel the Arabs from the land they call Judea and Samaria.'[http://www.newsweek.com/id/104118/page/2]'</blockquote> |
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::I don't have time to check out the rest of your cites now, but I'm pretty convinced they are of similar quality as evidence for your position. And please review [[WP:SYNTH]]. [[User:MeteorMaker|MeteorMaker]] ([[User talk:MeteorMaker|talk]]) 08:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:39, 16 November 2008
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Other
A number of international bodies, including the United Nations Security Council, the International Court of Justice, the European Union, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and many legal scholars have characterized the settlements as a violation of international law, but Israel, the Anti-Defamation League, and other legal scholars disagree with this assessment.
‘Other' here is ambiguous, and that is why I challenged it. Grammatically, it can refer either to ‘many legal scholars’ or it can refer to the preceding two entities immediately before- Israel and the Anti-Defamation League - as if they too constituted the first two in a series of ‘legal scholars'. Clearly written texts of encyclopedic quality should avoid any such ambiguity. Nishidani (talk) 13:52, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- The parallel wording of the clauses makes it unambiguous, but I'll fix the alleged ambiguity nonetheless. Jayjg (talk) 00:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's better, but it's still questionable. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- Israel has always been told the same thing as we were, viz, building settlements would be illegal. In 2007 Theodor Meron, then Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser, told the rest of us that he'd "secretly warned the government of Israel after the Six Day War of 1967 that it would be illegal to build Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories" and, on the 40th anniversary of that War told everyone "that he still believes that he was right". PRtalk 16:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please stop soapboxing. If there is a specific change you are proposing, let's hear it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- I propose that any edit insinuating that the settlements might be legal is FRINGE and EXTREME and disruptive.
- Checking links 57, 58, 59 and 60, one is a "Guide to activists", which can hardly be an RS, then Australia Israel Review and the OSCN don't comment on the legality of the settlements atall, and the CBC mentions "legal scholars" and Eugene Rostow in 1991, but can hardly be read as giving credence for this belief. Let's edit the article to policy, taking out this kind of nonsense. PRtalk 20:47, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- the CBC is clearly a reliable source, and if it finds it notable enough to report that a prominent scholar of of international law such as Rostow argues that settlements are not, in fact, illegal, that sort of does away with your claim that this is a a fringe position. As a side note, you seem to be conflating "fringe" and "extreme", so please have a look at these pages. A report on Rostow's position in CBC is, of course, neither.Canadian Monkey (talk) 21:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Please stop soapboxing. If there is a specific change you are proposing, let's hear it. Canadian Monkey (talk) 19:06, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- Israel has always been told the same thing as we were, viz, building settlements would be illegal. In 2007 Theodor Meron, then Israeli Foreign Ministry's legal adviser, told the rest of us that he'd "secretly warned the government of Israel after the Six Day War of 1967 that it would be illegal to build Jewish settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories" and, on the 40th anniversary of that War told everyone "that he still believes that he was right". PRtalk 16:59, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
- That's better, but it's still questionable. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 07:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Samaria
(a)After coming to power the Likud changed the government’s terminology for settlement in the occupied territories, substituting the term “hitnachalut” (evoking Biblical injunctions and promises to “inherit” the land through settlement) for “hityashvut,” an emotionally neutral term. The terms “occupied territory” or “West Bank” were forbidden in news reports. Television and radio journalists were banned from initiating interviews with Arabs who recognized the PLO as their representative'. Ian Lustick, 'The Riddle of Nationalism:The Dialectic of Religion and Nationalism in the Middle East', Logos, Vol.1, No-3, Summer 2002 pp.18-44 pp.38-9
(b) Samaria, like Judea, is an Israeli term with strong biblical religious connotations associated with the rise of the Likud party and extremist groups colonizing the West Bank. The West Bank is the standard (marginal 'fringe' exceptions do exist) term to designate the area.
(c) The Biblical Samaria and modern Samaria are confused geographical terms, with no precise demarcation in international law.
(d) If Samaria and Judea were allowed, then the corresponding Palestinian/Arabic designations would have to also be used to maintain NPOV.
(e) This encyclopedia's commitment to NPOV means concretely that ethnic-specific terms for contested land must yield ground to international naming conventions.
For this reason, Samaria and Judea are not acceptable and should be reverted, whenever they are plunked it. There was no debate on Samaria that would qualify as a consensus, only vote stacking by several interested parties (Israelis or pro-Israelis) against one editor who happened to be sticking to wiki policy. Nishidani (talk) 11:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
- Your original research is fascinating, but hundreds of sources use the term Samaria to refer to this region. For example:
- "Its intention was to establish a Jewish settlement in the heart of Samaria, the northern bulge of the West Bank, densely populated by Arabs." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 45.
- "Few in number until the late 1970s, the young Gush Emunim settlements in Samaria, the Etzion bloc, and Kiryat Arba attracted the most idealistic and dynamic fundamentalist activists." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 54.
- "Rabin intended the settlement to be temporary and to relocate them later within the confines of the Allon plan, not in the heart of Samaria. The settlers, however, refused to move." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem", Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 170.
- "The row houses of Ofra, a Jewish suburb to the north of Jerusalem, are planted in deep red soil at the foot of Ba'al Hatzor, the highest mountain in Samaria." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem", Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 213.
- "In August 2005, reversing his longstanding position on championing settlement of the Land of Israel, Sharon evacuated all of the Jewish settlements in Gaza (some 9,000 people living in twenty-one communities) and four small settlements in the northern part of Samaria (West Bank)." Alfred J. Kolatch. Inside Judaism: The Concepts, Customs, and Celebrations of the Jewish People, Jonathan David Company, 2006, p. 270.
- "On 18 September 1978, one day after the signing of the Accord, 700 Gush Emunim members established an unauthorized settlement in Samaria..." Lilly Weisbrod. Israeli Identity: In Search of a Successor to the Pioneer, Tsabar and Settler, Routledge, 2002, p. 112.
- "LAST STAND IN SAMARIA", Kevin Peraino, Newsweek, August 15, 2005.
- SAMARIA, Martin Gilbert, The Routledge Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Routledge, 2005, p. 134 (and other maps showing Samaria).
- "The relative success in establishing official settlement in Kfar Etzion and unofficial settlement in Kiryat Arba prompted groups of Israelis to attempt settlement in the major town in Samaria — Nablus.", Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978, p. 139.
- "In Samaria the voting percentage increased from 75% in the Jordanian period to 83.9%..." Allan Gerson. Israel, the West Bank and International Law, Routledge, 1978, p. 185.
- "Nevertheless, Haganah commanders recognized that the size of the Iraqi force and its location in northern Samaria made it a dangerous threat." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 153.
- "The prospects for a successful defense also improved during this period with the arrival of a large Iraqi expeditionary force in northern Samaria, enabling Glubb to withdraw..." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 279.
- "...wanted to concentrate their forces along shorter defensive lines in the mountainous terrain of central Samaria." Kenneth M. Pollack. Arabs at War: Military Effectiveness, 1948-1991, University of Nebraska Press, 2004, p. 296. (many other similar examples in this book).
- "The first actual step taken by the group was to settle in Elon Moreh in Samaria." Santosh C. Saha, Thomas K. Carr. Religious Fundamentalism in Developing Countries, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 73.
- "Northern Samaria is one of the harsest setting in the territories... In addition there have been many convoys bringing food, medical supplies, and other necessities to blockaded villages in Samaria and on the western "seam line". David Dean Shulman. Dark Hope: Working for Peace in Israel and Palestine, University of Chicago Press, 2007, p. 102.
- "Arafat lived in the casbah of old Nablus in Samaria and held his meetings in small Nablus cafes or in the New Generation Library." John Laffin. Fedayeen; the Arab-Israeli Dilemma, Free Press, 1973, p. 26.
- "(Though the northern parts of Samaria were occupied by the Iraqi army, as a Hashemite sister state, Iraq allowed Abdullah to exercise his political influence over the territories its armies controlled)." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 12.
- "Kiryat Arba (near Hebron) and Elon Moree (in Samaria) were, until 1977, the only settlements founded in the West Bank outside the lines of the Allon Plan." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 95.
- "In 1981, at the end of Begin's first term as Prime Minister, there were about 80 settlements in the West Bank, some in the densely-populated Arab areas in Samaria and elsewhere." Joseph Nevo. King Hussein and the Evolution of Jordan's Perception of a Political Settlement with Israel, 1967-1988, Sussex Academic Press, 2006, p. 96.
- "The first settlement had been built in Samaria, and settlers believed that they had begun the task of preventing territorial compromise in the West Bank." David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985, p. 30.
- "While the government had acted quickly to forcibly uproot previous settlement attempts, it did not move against the settlers in Samaria through December 7." David Weisburd. Jewish Settler Violence, Penn State Press, 1985, p. 32.
- "Success in restoring some order was due to the energy and skill of the district governors — in Hebron a Palestinian, Nairn Tucan, in Samaria another, the active Ahmed Khalil, and in Jerusalem Abdullah Tell." Ann Dearden. Jordan: history and special problems, R. Hale, 1958, p. 85.
- "...as a reaction to the October War, and the character and impact of the illegal settlement attempts in Samaria from late 1974 onward." William W. Harris. Taking Root: Israeli Settlement in the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza-Sinai, 1967-1980, Research Studies Press, 1980, p. 135.
- "As regards physical activity Gush Emunim had carried all before it for two years and had planted the presence in Samaria which would be extremely difficult to curb, let alone uproot." William W. Harris. Taking Root: Israeli Settlement in the West Bank, the Golan, and Gaza-Sinai, 1967-1980, Research Studies Press, 1980, p. 157.
- "In Samaria, the number of women employed in sewing has risen from 100 in 1967 to just over 3000 in 1972." Vivian A. Bull. The West Bank--Is it Viable?, Lexington Books, 1975, p. 123.
- "A third sector was opened up in the north, where Gen. Elazar sent the armoured brigades of Ram and Bar-Kochva from Ugda Peled to take Nablus and Jenin in Samaria." John Laffin, Mike Chappell. The Israeli Army in the Middle East Wars 1948-73, Osprey Publishing, 1982, p. 19.
- "For example, in the case of the settlement-city of Ariel - the largest settlement in Samaria, coincidentally named after Ariel Sharon - the design was stretched into a long, thin form." Stephen Graham. Cities, War, and Terrorism: Towards an Urban Geopolitics, Blackwell Publishing, 2004, p. 181.
- "Likud planners designated Ariel to become the largest Jewish town in Samaria, with as many as one hundred thousand residents by the year 2010." Robert I. Friedman. Zealots for Zion: Inside Israel's West Bank Settlement Movement, Random House, 1992, p. 72.
- "... but late on June 6 he broke through to capture Nablus, the key to road communications in Samaria... Jordanian defences in Samaria fell apart." John Pimlott. The Middle East Conflicts: From 1945 to the Present, Orbis, 1983, p. 68.
- "On the other hand, we visited the planned city of Ariel on the top of a mountain in Samaria, one of Israel's West Bank settlements." Peter Laarman. Getting on Message: Challenging the Christian Right from the Heart of the Gospel, Beacon Press, 2006, p. 46.
- "Yael Meivar was shot by terrorists near the settlement of Alei Zahav in Samaria." Anthony H. Cordesman, Jennifer Moravitz. The Israeli-Palestinian War: Escalating to Nowhere, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2005, p. 26.
- "Marking Israeli Arbor Day at a Jewish settlement in Samaria on Feb. 3, Shamir said...", Andrew C. Kimmens. The Palestinian Problem, H.W. Wilson, 1989, p. 211.
- "Carter concluded that the unresolved issues included... the future of the Palestinians in Samaria, Judea, and Gaza..." Herbert Druks. The Uncertain Alliance: The U.S. and Israel from Kennedy to the Peace Process, Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 175.
- "Jewish settlements in Samaria in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip would be under Israeli sovereignty." H. Paul Jeffers. The Complete Idiot's Guide to Jerusalem, Alpha Books, 2004, p. 212.
- "Instead the government based its view on the map previously introduced by Clinton Bailey which envisaged three self-governing Palestinian enclaves, with an Israeli corridor in Samaria." Dan Cohn-Sherbok, Dawoud Sudqi El Alami. The Palestine-Israeli Conflict: A Beginner's Guide, Oneworld Publications, 2001, p. 86.
- There are hundreds more sources. Also, the term "Samaria" is an English, Western one, not an "Israeli" one. Israelis speak Hebrew. Please stop trying to force your political agenda into Wikipedia. Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 02:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
- This is a copy and paste job from Talk:Samaria, and has already been refuted there. The first seven quotes (from four sources) have conclusively been shown to be misrepresentations of the sources (plus one case (Lilly Weisbrod) of using an Israeli source as evidence of outside-Israel use of the term "Samaria"[1]. Why you bring them up again is difficult to understand. All of these sources use "West Bank" consistently, and "Samaria" only when describing settlers and their ideology or ambitions (in the Newsweek case, in a poetic title alluding to Bible-age Jewish history). Four of these four sources actually confirm the opposite position of yours:
*For political purposes, and despite the geographical imprecision involved, the annexationist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area not as the West Bank, but as Judea and Samaria. [2]
*To the religious nationalist settlers, [the territories] are Judea and Samaria, the historical core of the ancient Jewish nation.[3]
*[...]the building of Jewish communities in the West Bank, or Judea and Samaria as Jews refer it, commenced. [4]
*And it stretches to the fanatical Jewish chauvinists who want to expel the Arabs from the land they call Judea and Samaria.'[5]'
- I don't have time to check out the rest of your cites now, but I'm pretty convinced they are of similar quality as evidence for your position. And please review WP:SYNTH. MeteorMaker (talk) 08:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)