Anyeverybody (talk | contribs) →On the photo and NPOV: ridiculous = ridicule and I'm actually against that |
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::Well, I think that's a good progress ! Do you mean If I show that site is a governmental site , then there will be no problem ? As you can see , the site of Iranian Presidency adds no tag of "Iranian government" , in the case of [http://www.sajed.ir/en/ sajed.ir],that is exactly the same as the site of Iranian Presidency :The site of Iranian presidency does not says it is a part of Iranian government , same as the sajed. The word "SAJED" itself is a syllabic abbreviation of "'''SA'''ite '''J'''ameh-'''E''' '''D'''efaye moghadass (All including site of holy defense).It's so clear that is a part of Iranian government as it has been written here : [http://sharifnews.com/?12414].Or you can simply use google:[http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=plG&q=General+Mir-Faisal+Bagherzadeh%2BSacred+Defense+Foundation&btnG=Search General Mir-Faisal Bagherzadeh+Sacred Defense Foundation]--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 10:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC) |
::Well, I think that's a good progress ! Do you mean If I show that site is a governmental site , then there will be no problem ? As you can see , the site of Iranian Presidency adds no tag of "Iranian government" , in the case of [http://www.sajed.ir/en/ sajed.ir],that is exactly the same as the site of Iranian Presidency :The site of Iranian presidency does not says it is a part of Iranian government , same as the sajed. The word "SAJED" itself is a syllabic abbreviation of "'''SA'''ite '''J'''ameh-'''E''' '''D'''efaye moghadass (All including site of holy defense).It's so clear that is a part of Iranian government as it has been written here : [http://sharifnews.com/?12414].Or you can simply use google:[http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=plG&q=General+Mir-Faisal+Bagherzadeh%2BSacred+Defense+Foundation&btnG=Search General Mir-Faisal Bagherzadeh+Sacred Defense Foundation]--[[User:Alborz Fallah|Alborz Fallah]] ([[User talk:Alborz Fallah|talk]]) 10:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC) |
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Felitsa |
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=== On the photo and NPOV === |
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I think, but could be wrong, that everyone disputing this image has a concern we've been relatively quiet about, NPOV. I know I have, mostly because I couldn't think of an example image going the other way, needless POV against a group attacking the US. Then I happened upon [[WP:V|verifiable]] US government images of an even more disturbing nature on [[9/11]], but you don't see any of them* in that article do you? Why not? Because it's assumed people will be horribly mangled in an occurrence like this, just the same as we can assume children died when a commercial airliner was shot down. (*Actual photos, uncensored of 9/11 victims so I must be emphatic '''<big>don't click on these links if you mind <u>real</u> gore</big>''': [http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200011.html Photo showing part of a 9/11 victim on the street below the WTC] or [http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200045.html this victim inside the Pentagon]. |
I think, but could be wrong, that everyone disputing this image has a concern we've been relatively quiet about, NPOV. I know I have, mostly because I couldn't think of an example image going the other way, needless POV against a group attacking the US. Then I happened upon [[WP:V|verifiable]] US government images of an even more disturbing nature on [[9/11]], but you don't see any of them* in that article do you? Why not? Because it's assumed people will be horribly mangled in an occurrence like this, just the same as we can assume children died when a commercial airliner was shot down. (*Actual photos, uncensored of 9/11 victims so I must be emphatic '''<big>don't click on these links if you mind <u>real</u> gore</big>''': [http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200011.html Photo showing part of a 9/11 victim on the street below the WTC] or [http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200045.html this victim inside the Pentagon]. |
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To be clear, the reason those pictures don't appear on the 9/11 article, or those like the [[Lockerbie Bombing]] is because there is no purpose to such images except to engender negative feelings toward one side or another. It has nothing to do with ''mental images'' and everything to do with [[WP:NPOV|the rules]]. [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]] 23:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC) |
To be clear, the reason those pictures don't appear on the 9/11 article, or those like the [[Lockerbie Bombing]] is because there is no purpose to such images except to engender negative feelings toward one side or another. It has nothing to do with ''mental images'' and everything to do with [[WP:NPOV|the rules]]. [[User:Anyeverybody|Anynobody]] 23:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC) |
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=== What just resulted in this rush? === |
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Why in past day you have started deleting the picture? Why are we not waiting to get to a conclusion on the 'request for deletation' page? Unilateral, imature and abropt attemps to deletation would just result in an instable article. Please wait until that discussion reaches a conclusion. Patient is key when dealing with encyclopedic work. Come to think of, patient would have saved the life of the passengers of that airplane too. [[User:Farmanesh|Farmanesh]] ([[User talk:Farmanesh|talk]]) 13:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:30, 9 March 2008
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Please add sections to the end as the top ones are archived earlier.
Archived Discussion:
/Archive 1 • Archive 2 May 2006 - January 2008
Paragraph in "Shootdown" section seems out of place
The paragraph beginning "The event triggered an intense controversy, with Iran condemning the shootdown..." in the "Shootdown" section of the article seems out of place and completely halts the flow of the section. We go from events leading up to the incident, to a 'reaction' type paragraph, and then back to an account of the incident again. I suggest that the paragraph in question would be a better fit in a "Reaction" or "Aftermath" type section, as it does not deal with the shootdown itself but of the subsequent follow-up. If it were not for the paragraphs which immediately follow (U.S. and Iranian accounts of the incident), the paragraph might not be completely out of place as it would serve as a sort of 'conclusion' to the incident, but as it is, it does not flow. GCD1 (talk) 15:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
"Legion of Merit" image
- Inclusion of that image is to show the fact that the officers were reliable in the field of "firing procedure" and "confidence under fire", thus , the image is at least indirectly relevent to the article.When that medal is sited in the article , then way should it's image be irrevalant? What's the difference between this image and the image of "USS Vincennes screen displays" ? Does the Flight 655's image is on the screen ?! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 13:06, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- First of all, Lustig was not awarded a Legion of Merit. Please cite a source for that assertion. The "confidence under fire" line you refer to is not from a Legion of Merit citation and Rogers' LOM was essentially an end of tour award and did not make mention of Iran, Iran Air 655 or the shootdown. Second, the displays are what the Captain was sitting in front of during the incident, it seems appropriate to use that image, since it was what the crew was using at the time. No images of Iran Air 655 are here because none seem to be freely available. If you can find an image of the aircraft, unencumbered by copyright issues, feel free to add it. As for the Legion of Merit image, there is no reason or need for an image of the medal to be in the article. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- adding the image of a medal that is mentioned on the article ,is not against the wikipedia's policy ;deleting it by "personal taste" is not rational and acceptable. I think we can ask the readers to delete it or not .--Alborz Fallah (talk) 22:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
US lack-of-apology and POV
[Pasted from WhisperToMe message to BoogaLouie]:
before re-adding removed sections, please remove possible POV. In the section re-added here [1] I found POVish words. I will remove them. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Look at this version: [2] - I took out the onlies and buts so there is no value judgment. WhisperToMe (talk) 02:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree that this sentence contains POV words: In 1996 the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million in compensation for the Iranians killed, but has only expressed regret only for the loss of innocent life, and never admitted responsibility nor apologised to the Iranian government.
- Iranians are very upset about the whole thing and very much want an admission of wrongdoing. --BoogaLouie (talk) 15:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
- By definition, what they want is subjective. If that's the motivation for leaving in the 'buts' and 'onlies', then it really is POV. --Vygramul —Preceding comment was added at 17:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
This sentence is important
Some of editors ,(eg User:John Nevard ) , think the sentence "66 children and 1 pregnant woman" serves no purpose.I think that's informative about the damage and should be there.If someone think that may be deleted , please say why! Thankyou --Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:11, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- It's currently unreferenced, so likely to be challenged and removed, even if you think it's important. Suggest therefore that you find a reliable source so that this information can be verified. Socrates2008 (Talk) 21:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I removed it, such information needs a reliable source. For example see China Airlines Flight 611#Nationalities of passengers, which goes into great detail about passenger demographics AND contains foreign sources written in English. If you can find something just as reliable saying X children and X pregnant women died then we can figure out a way to include it. Anynobody 05:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Injured kid image
What is sajed.ir in Iran? Is this a serious news page there, or someone's personal site? (I'd believe either I guess, based on some of the other images in the gallery: Like this.) Anynobody 04:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This child was obviously alive when rescuers got to him/her, note the bloody bandage and bruising. One can't bleed into a bandage or surrounding tissue when their heart isn't beating. I know that there have been rare occurrences where a person has actually survived falls from a greater height, but not over water. Since the source is not in English I can't verify that the caption doesn't say something like "child killed in car accident". Moreover even if it does say the child was on the flight, it's really hard to imagine a small child surviving the explosion/rapid decompression and then a collision with open water after falling more than mile. Even if they did survive all those things, drowning would be guaranteed (it's hard to swim/tread water with a broken arm(s) or leg(s)) Anynobody 07:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- I actually think this image should be removed from the article, despite having removed the word 'alleged'. I don't think it has much informational/illustration merit - how about removing it which makes this debate moot? (as I said on Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images/2008 February 4) From that collection I would support the addition of [3] or [4] as having some informational/illustration value, if they are GFDL. However I am doubtful about the GFDL claim. Rwendland (talk) 09:42, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- "This child was obviously alive when rescuers got to him/her, note the bloody bandage and bruising. One can't bleed into a bandage or surrounding tissue when their heart isn't beating." Pardon , but as a medical doctor I can inform you that the bleeding does not need cardiac beating. The blue tissue is not "bandage" : that's the child's T-shirt and the bruising is normal : after a certain peace of time , the corpus begins to get bruised in flanks and abdomen and after that in places that vacsera are deforming . In the chest , the lungs and mediastinal organs do so and we may have bruising in the top of sternum . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:30, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
All we are doing is speculating since there is no caption on the source page. If we don't know the vital who, what, where, when of this image, how can we provide a proper caption? I concur with Rwendland that this image has no informational value and I feel it does not belong on this page. The other images suffer similar licensing problems as they are not GFDL as the site claims, but at least they have some encyclopedic value. One problem is, how do we know what the other images depict without captions on the source pages? --Dual Freq (talk) 22:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I completely agree with removal for the same reason, I honestly prefer not to get into technical discussions unless absolutely necessary (which is why I mentioned the language difference as my primary concern.) Anynobody 03:57, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
(PS I tried finding it on Al Jazeera, since they have a page in English. Anyone else know of other native middle eastern sources which also publish English versions?) Anynobody 04:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.sajed.ir/en/component/option,com_ponygallery/Itemid,4/func,detail/id,5222/ change the pe to en and the site is in english, no caption on either page. --Dual Freq (talk) 04:05, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
- Well I don't know if there is any Wikipedia guideline to determine which image has "encyclopedic value" and which one does not, but my personal opinion is that it can show the extent of damage and make the reader to read the article.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- 1- Q:Where did you get the caption? How do you know what the image depicts? A:From the Persian scripts of the page [5],that reads "The American warship's attack on Iranian plane" "حمله نظامی ناو آمریکائی به هواپیما ایرباس جمهوری اسلامی ایران" .If you point the mouse to the images in that page , it will show the "Airbus plane:هواپیمای ایرباس" in response.
2- Q :When was the photo taken? Who took the photo? A:I Don't know . If it is so essential that lack of it means to delete the picture , I can write to the site and ask them to provide this information , but I'm not sure about what to do if someone doubts the information that they may hand!!
3-Q:How can we possibly "show the extent of damage" if we are only guessing or speculating at the caption?A:Many images may have no caption , but still can show many things.A picture is better than a thousand words.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 16:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- 1- Q:Where did you get the caption? How do you know what the image depicts? A:From the Persian scripts of the page [5],that reads "The American warship's attack on Iranian plane" "حمله نظامی ناو آمریکائی به هواپیما ایرباس جمهوری اسلامی ایران" .If you point the mouse to the images in that page , it will show the "Airbus plane:هواپیمای ایرباس" in response.
The translation Alborz Fallah gave from the captions of the page are correct. In fact there are more pictures regarding this shootdown availble here[6] which this is only one of them. In fact I propose using more of those pictures as they give a more realistic illustration. As for the site, it is a semi-governmental website dedicated to iran-iraq war [7].Farmanesh (talk) 22:21, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- Semi-governmental? Does that mean its semi-covered under Iranian copyright or semi-GFDL? Their english about page neglects to mention that they are a government agency. The Foundation for The Remembrance of The Holy Defence’s Monument Preservation and Sacred Values Propagation doesn't sound like a government agency to me. Basically we have two problems, we have no caption (what the image depicts, date, location, subject, photographer), just the name of the gallery the image is in, ("The American warship's attack on Iranian plane") leaving us to assume this photo depicts a victim of this incident. Second, the site claims a blanket GFDL status on all its images, but we can't verify this organization holds the copyright on the images it has presented. This foundation did not exist at the time of the incident, they did not take the pictures they are releasing GFDL. If we don't know the original author / source of the image how can we possibly know that the images are not copyrighted by a third party that is not listed. If the foundation is not the image's author, how can they release it under their own license? --Dual Freq (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Looking around at their other image galleries, this image, which I'm guessing is supposed to portray Rachel Corrie is included in a gallery. Its listed GFDL, but was not taken in Iran and has nothing to do with the Iran / Iraq war. How is it that this foundation decided this image is GFDL? I can't trust any image from this site, it looks like a poorly done web gallery that took images from other places, does not provide proper credit to authors and has no respect for any copyright laws. --Dual Freq (talk) 23:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
- This looks like someone's personal site of "liberated" content.
One of two articles on it, is written in English that is so much better than their About Us statement, a part quoted here;After the supreme leader’s prominent guidance as to keeping alive, all the best, the remembrance, name and memory of the Holy Defence valuable years’ brave warriors, The Foundation for The Remembrance of The Holy Defence’s Monument Preservation and Sacred Values Propagation (FRHDMPSVP), decided to start a move by impart of technology, according to this important matter. I'm thinking the article was simply plagiarized when I read both it and what was just quoted.(I take the struck out part back, they clearly wrote the article in question) In short, this site is not reliable and the images claimed to be GFDL will turn out to be copyrighted by someone else. Anynobody 04:33, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- This looks like someone's personal site of "liberated" content.
- Not exactly, I said one out of two of its articles looks as though it wasn't written by whoever wrote the site. On second read I'm actually pretty sure they did write it, (USS Vincent?). As pointed out earlier by Dual Freq and myself the site appears to be using images whos copyright status is at best questionable; such as this one: identified by Dual Freq or the TV screenshot I pointed out during my initial post.
- What I am saying though is that serious questions exist about both the "free" status of the image in question and the overall reliability of the site. (PS And now that you point it out, the NPOV nature of a site run by religious, nationalistic Iranians who don't cite sources raises concerns too.) Anynobody 09:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey , hey ! Calm down please ... That is an international accident and wikipedia is supposed to show both views. If the Iranian data is deleted with the label of "unreliable" and "having copyright problems", then how can wikipedia show the both sides view?
about two problems:
I-No caption (what the image depicts, date, location, subject, photographer), just ("The American warship's attack on Iranian plane").
II- GFDL status(verify this organization holds the copyright on the images it has presented).
"Caption" is not crucial and essential as decisive : If there is any sentence in wikipedia policies such as "The images without captions are not allowed in wikipedia" ,then please show me the page. In GDFL, that is an Iranian governmental site and anyone who knows Persian can understand it clearly by simply reading the text : this is another site of this governmental foundation (Support by: www.sajed.ir in the footprint).The head of the foundation is a Sepah (Revolutionary Guard) Major General Mir-Faisal Bagherzadeh ,but if the problem is with the Iranian law of copyright and if there criticism over internal Iranian policy of ownership of the images, that's something distinct and should be discussed else where.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hey , hey ! Calm down please ... That is an international accident and wikipedia is supposed to show both views. If the Iranian data is deleted with the label of "unreliable" and "having copyright problems", then how can wikipedia show the both sides view?
- Hey , hey ! Calm down please ... I'm sorry to give you the impression that I'm not calm, I assure you that I am. (Please don't confuse disagreement with anger, after all it's possible to calmly disagree :)
- What you don't seem to understand is that according to one of our primary rules, verifiability, sources etc. should be in English which the site you point to is not. Anynobody 09:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I DO can't understand does this sentence "English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality...." means "sources etc. should be in English "? Do you know any available source for the images of the injured victims of the accident outside Iran? How would they(English language,non Iranian photographers) supposed tobe in the Iranian cemetry to shot that photo?! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- How do you know they were in an Iranian cemetery shooting the photo? This photo could be anything, there is no caption and you are assuming it is related because of the image gallery the photo is in. We can't assume anything in an encyclopedia. We have no idea where this photo was taken or what it depicts, how can we put it up and say that it shows a victim? As I noted above, I can not trust this website as a reliable source of free images and I don't think we should be guessing what the image depicts as this site forces us to do. The image should be removed as unverifiable and deleted as an unfree image. Wikipedia:Images#Pertinence and encyclopedicity says image origin must be properly referenced. "In the case of an image not directly attributed to its creator, it is not sufficient to merely indicate the image's immediate source (such as an URL), but the identity of the image's content must be given. Images that are not properly identified are unencyclopedic and hence not useful for Wikipedia." We have to know more about this image before it can be included. --Dual Freq (talk) 15:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- I DO can't understand does this sentence "English-language sources should be used in preference to foreign-language sources, assuming the availability of an English-language source of equal quality...." means "sources etc. should be in English "? Do you know any available source for the images of the injured victims of the accident outside Iran? How would they(English language,non Iranian photographers) supposed tobe in the Iranian cemetry to shot that photo?! --Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Alborz Fallah we have plenty of high quality, reliable sources in English which state that Iran thinks of this as an intentional attack on Iranian civilians, we don't need foreign language sources for what you're trying to say. If no English sources talked about the fact that civilians were killed, then we'd need foreign sources. (That is the point you're trying to make with this image right? That civilians aka innocent women and children were killed. Nobody is denying innocents were killed, and if this image came from an actually reliable site which had no copyright questions I'd have no problem with including it, even though I think it's not someone aboard an airliner shot down over the open water. Anynobody 04:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- (PS Are you seriously saying that this picture is of a kid at a cemetery? Don't they have coffins/shrouds or something to bury dead people in? Wouldn't they have thrown away the bloody bandage (or t-shirt) before going to bury the body?) Anynobody 04:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- An Iranian cemetery is something different.The relatives have to recognize the body and made it washed ,the image is showing the Morgue of that cemetery.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- (PS Are you seriously saying that this picture is of a kid at a cemetery? Don't they have coffins/shrouds or something to bury dead people in? Wouldn't they have thrown away the bloody bandage (or t-shirt) before going to bury the body?) Anynobody 04:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Possible alternative
Would a solution everyone would be content with be to replace this image with [8], and make a historic-image fair use argument? I recall this image being on TV at the time, so I think it is of historic nature (and referred to in the press at the time [9] [10] [11]). It also well illustrates the horror of the incident without a close-up of anyone, or blood. It could satisfy all parties. The image was also likely taken by an Iranian govt employee on the rescue, released to the media. Rwendland (talk) 15:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- There are at least two problems with this suggestion, assuming the image is copyrighted and not by sajed.ir then us making a fair use rationale for a more or less stolen image. (Lets say for example, the image is actually owned by Al Jazeera, showing their image with sajed.ir's watermark would not be fair use.) The second problem is The Washington Post story doesn't mention the image you've proposed (I haven't read the rest yet). Anynobody 04:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- The WashPost does say "Iranian television broadcast scenes of bodies floating amid scattered debris", and these were also shown in the UK at the time I recall, and I suspect in the U.S. as the Nightline article mentions it. Being written about in the media is one of the historic-image fair-use tests, so I think a fair-use argument would be perfectly reasonable; indeed stronger than many fair-use arguments on Wikipedia. But you are right that we need a frame of the video without a watermark, don't know if cropping it out is OK, Template:Non-free_historic_image does envisage possibly cropping the image itself. Rwendland (talk) 11:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think using [12] is a good alternative, but the real problem is in that any picture of the civilian's damage is of Iranian origin (because of the time and place of the accident),and by interpreting the copyright (and reliability) codes of the Wikipedia with a "beyond the reasonable doubt" approach, no image or video can be used at all. The proposed picture ( [13] )is the same in the video 01:07 of the video, but I'm sure the opposing party will say the same thing about the video too.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:06, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Rwendland the image your proposing isn't bodies floating amid scattered debris, it's a photograph someone took of their TV. (By the way, this is also very frowned upon from a copyright standpoint.) Do you know of a photo/video of the bodies floating amid debris not from sajed and is actually legible? If so we can certainly discuss it, but this isn't a solution as it still makes use of questionable (and in this case especially poor quality) material from a disputed source.
I don't have a problem with sources from the middle east, so long as they are reliable, to illustrate what I mean I'll point out an unreliable English source. Sajed.ir is the equivalent of this site, which is simply the opinion of its writer without the benefit of fact checking/editing that news goes through. (If it had, then the image's caption would have identified the aircraft in it as not the A300 EP-IBU lost in the incident but a newer A310.) For all I, or any other English only editors know, sajed.ir is just a guy named sajed who thinks he has a foundation. I know that isn't the case with a source like Al Jazeera though. Anynobody 00:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The photograph of the poor dead young girl (“alleged Iranian child victim”) is in such bad taste, that it would appear in a decent encyclopedia is unthinkable. It is NOT from a Reliable Source rather an extremist source. Most of all, the source does not meet standards of RS. Be aggressive and delete, because your position is already substantiated. The raft of dead nude people cannot be published there either. The same standards of decency should apply throughout Wikipedia. The ability to write superior articles, and cite respectable RS far outweighs the value of doing things like this. In it’s own special way, this photo is kind of an indecent vandalism to the article. Delete It ! Bwebb00 (talk) 05:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe it's a good sugesstion to have a new standard throughout Wikipedia, but I think double standard should be avoided (considering [14], [15], [16] and etc.)--Alborz Fallah (talk) 13:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the notion that there is a double standard being implemented here, the source is legit, we may desagree with it or dislike it but it is a legit organization in Iran. Just b/c you don't know that organization or haven't heard about it won't reduce its legitimacy. It is not a small or irelevent org in Iran but one of major ones in this area. I don't like defending them as I have considrable personal difference in belifs with them but it doesn't make them unlegit.Farmanesh (talk) 16:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
No double standard. I am not trying to show dead Americans (or any dead peoples) to "TILT" my article anywhere on earth. This photo has unknown beginnings, unknown in it's real origin, and degrades the Wikipedia because of lack of RS. Sajed.ir is NOT a RS. More important to me, is that it disgraces that little girl to help reinforce some tilted political agenda. Her arm is even broken. I think it is shameful that you would exploit her dead body to put your ZING into article writing here. The photo comes out. Bwebb00 (talk) 20:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Mr. Farmanesh. Please do not continue to REVERT that photo of the young dead girl back into the article. Dual Freq had sufficient grounds for deletion when he deleted it today. [[17]] Not only that, it is an Indecent exploitation of the girl. Bwebb00 (talk) 21:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
- I should say I am amazed with your tone when you say "The photo comes out.", and the 'period' you put at the end of it. I invite you to review the grounds for your self-confidence.
- I think we have much more to talk on the RS part of your point, what is your reason for calling that site and organizations behind it RS? Is it just b/c you don't know it?
- I however do understand and sympatize with your other point, I do not like to ever see any thing like that happens to anyone, and have no intrest in seeing it either. However, what is an ecyclopedia? Should we sensore a picture just b/c it is very heart breaking? Or b/c one thinks that girl would not like her picture here? One might say that girl would very much want to show the extent of what happened in reality to those who want to read about the incident. I don't think any of us can make such a call. In both cases this is not the first article which has heartbreaking pictures on it. Human history is full of these wild actions and an encyclopedia would need to show the extent of it as you can see on many articles like Vietnam War, Opposition to the Vietnam War, My Lai Massacre and an endless list of these.
- It is double standard that you are only objecting to this picture. If you really beleive in your argument you may start going over all war and disaster articles and delete all such pictures.Farmanesh (talk) 05:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Speedy deletion process
- I've nominated this image for speedy deletion, I'm surprised no one else has considering the problems with it (otherwise I'd of done this sooner). Besides the questionable nature of what the image is supposed to depict it claims to be under {{GFDL}} yet has someone's water mark on it, plus other images in the gallery are simply photos of a TV. Anynobody 00:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- In my ordinary and non-digital life , I'm a medical doctor and in many occasions I had proudly risk many things (Including my own life) to save a number of such kids. After the recent conflict in the Persian gulf (2008 US-Iranian naval dispute),I sensed that such incidents can threat the life of innocent human beings. Then I add that picture to this article to alarm against those possible consequences. I see there are many persons that prefer to hide a result than to prevent the cause.The copy right problem is an excuse for censoring the image.The result of disscusion about the licence [18] was to keep it.But a group of pushing oppsition ,did delete the picture.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Alborz, you could contend this speedy-deletion since it seems to be against process. Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion says "If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it may not be speedily deleted, except in the case of newly discovered copyright infringements." Also Wikipedia:SD#I9 says "The image was copied from a website or other source that does not have a license compatible with Wikipedia, and the uploader does not assert ... Non-blatant copyright infringements should be discussed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion.". Since the source (and uploader?) asserts GFDL, and there was extensive discussion, seems to me this image does not come under the speed-deletion criteria, and should have gone thru the full deletion process. You would have to raise this in Wikipedia:Deletion review to challenge the speedy-deletion, if you want to. Rwendland (talk) 12:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for instruction and also thank you because you care. I will do my best, but my mother tongue is not English and getting involved to a complicated discussion is so time-consuming and difficult for me. But I will do my best.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Alborz, if you feel unable to contend this because your my mother tongue is not English, I would do this for you if you want - but this might have to wait until Saturday. But I have to say, I suspect it will ultimately be deleted anyway in a full deletion process vote. You need to consider if you think this is worth the trouble. Personally, I would think time would be better spent trying to introduce one of the alternative images I suggested above, if you think that would have equal value for the article. Rwendland (talk) 13:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for instruction and also thank you because you care. I will do my best, but my mother tongue is not English and getting involved to a complicated discussion is so time-consuming and difficult for me. But I will do my best.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Alborz, you could contend this speedy-deletion since it seems to be against process. Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion says "If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it may not be speedily deleted, except in the case of newly discovered copyright infringements." Also Wikipedia:SD#I9 says "The image was copied from a website or other source that does not have a license compatible with Wikipedia, and the uploader does not assert ... Non-blatant copyright infringements should be discussed at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion.". Since the source (and uploader?) asserts GFDL, and there was extensive discussion, seems to me this image does not come under the speed-deletion criteria, and should have gone thru the full deletion process. You would have to raise this in Wikipedia:Deletion review to challenge the speedy-deletion, if you want to. Rwendland (talk) 12:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- In my ordinary and non-digital life , I'm a medical doctor and in many occasions I had proudly risk many things (Including my own life) to save a number of such kids. After the recent conflict in the Persian gulf (2008 US-Iranian naval dispute),I sensed that such incidents can threat the life of innocent human beings. Then I add that picture to this article to alarm against those possible consequences. I see there are many persons that prefer to hide a result than to prevent the cause.The copy right problem is an excuse for censoring the image.The result of disscusion about the licence [18] was to keep it.But a group of pushing oppsition ,did delete the picture.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:05, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- I've nominated this image for speedy deletion, I'm surprised no one else has considering the problems with it (otherwise I'd of done this sooner). Besides the questionable nature of what the image is supposed to depict it claims to be under {{GFDL}} yet has someone's water mark on it, plus other images in the gallery are simply photos of a TV. Anynobody 00:38, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
- Its hard to censor an image when we don't know what it depicts. There is no valid caption for that image, we don't know who is pictured, when the picture was taken, where or who took it. Without that it's basically a Rorschach test, where anyone can see whatever they want in the image since it has no real caption. If the image is restored, I will nominate if via ifd. Wikipedia:Images#Pertinence and encyclopedicity says image origin must be properly referenced. "In the case of an image not directly attributed to its creator, it is not sufficient to merely indicate the image's immediate source (such as an URL), but the identity of the image's content must be given. Images that are not properly identified are unencyclopedic and hence not useful for Wikipedia." --Dual Freq (talk) 12:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems the speedy-deletion of Image:Vincennes shot.jpg has been reversed by an admin, without prompting and quite independently of our discussion here. The admin appears to have independently noticed the discussion on Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images/2008 February 4, and recognised the image should not have been speedy-deleted because that was contrary to proper process. Rwendland (talk) 23:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- The unsourced, uncaptioned, unencyclopedic image in question has been nominated for deletion at Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2008 February 29#Image:Vincennes shot.jpg --Dual Freq (talk) 00:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Rwendland the image wasn't previously up for a deletion discussion, which is why I nominated it for speedy deletion. (Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images isn't Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion) Anynobody 02:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I wondered about that but wasn't sure. Still, I don't think it matched the applicable Wikipedia:SD#I9 because it is not a blatant (unarguable) copyright infringement; so maybe a right decision for wrong reason? I think the final outcome will be the same in the end, but at least everyone will be happy from proper process. I didn't really want this outcome, as time would be better spent on improving the article (which I think is quite poor), but as the admin reversed his decision there was little choice. Sorry. Rwendland (talk) 02:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Alborz Fallah did do you take know for sure whoever took this picture released it under the GFDL? You claim to have taken it by uploading it under {{GFDL}}. If you did take it you so, you could diffuse the copyright issues by simply uploading a version without another site's watermark and list yourself as the author. (I'm still going to dispute the image as non-reliable, it doesn't matter what the caption says in Persian since this is an English site and sajeed.ir says it's about the Iran/Iraq war so we (English speakers who didn't learn Persian) have no way of knowing if the kid was killed by Iraqis, a traffic accident, drowned in a pool, or was just playing dead for the camera. That concern is entirely separate of legal issues with claiming copyright knowledge of someone else's work as your own. Anynobody 02:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I don't think using {{GFDL}} implies self-made. If you were copying someone else's GFDL release, wouldn't you use that template? Rwendland (talk) 03:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
D'oh! That's right it's not just a Wikipedia thing, still if it is GFDL from somewhere else, why not simply provide a link to where we can verify that like this one for an image I created where it clearly identifies GFDL? (Answer I don't think a link can be found saying this image was released by its creator under GFDL based on the explanation given:As Iran has not ratified any of the international copyright treaties, Iranian copyright is not recognised in the U.S., see Iran and copyright issues,... It sounds kinda like it wasn't released under the GFDL.) Anynobody 05:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC) (PS I realize the site claims to have released the image under GFDL, but then again as I've pointed out before it releases pictures taken from the TV under GFDL, which is why I say a link to the image's creator not sajeed/ir) Anynobody 06:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- A valid possibility is that the original is public-domain for some reason (eg like US govt photos/film are public domain), and sajeed.ir added watermark then released modified version under GFDL. Finding originals on the web isn't always possible (maybe it was a TV screenshot). So I think there are possible good explanations here - hence a full deletion review is better. Rwendland (talk) 10:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
<sorry this is so late> Don't get me wrong, I'm usually willing to give the benefit of doubt, but not when I know they're screwing up on the same issue with different images in their gallery. Note the images in this CNN article:are credited to the Int'l solidarity movement and AP Here we have the same pictures, credited to sajed.ir, Bottom CNN photo and Top CNN photo, for those who may not understand, one cannot release another's work as GFDL which is essentially what sajed.ir is doing with these photos unless they can show that person who created it really did release their work as GFDL. Anynobody 04:46, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Awarded?
How could the crew on the aircraft carrier been awarded for shooting down an civil passenger jet.Wouldn`t they be triald for murder instead? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.235.144.148 (talk) 14:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
- In short, politics. (PS it was a missile cruiser, not a carrier and you're more likely to get an in depth answer to such questions at the Wikipedia:Reference desk) Anynobody 04:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
BBC Documentary
A paragraph stating that the plane not only changed course away from CG-49 but was still shot down anyway has been introduced. In it these facts are said to have come from a 2002 BBC documentary. This isn't sourcing, in order to be called a source it should be cited which necessitates more information: what was the documentary called? When was it made? Who made it? (The BBC both makes and shows others documentaries) etc. Anynobody 00:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
- The documentary was called The Other Lockerbie and was produced in-house by the BBC. It was first shown on 17 April 2000, not 2002. I have it on tape somewhere, and while I haven't watched it for a few years, I'm presuming this is the programme referred to. Nick Cooper (talk) 15:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- Don't think this is especially new information. The IATA/DOD data shows IR655 was heading more directly toward the Montgomery rather than the Vincennes, and Vincennes was on a vector moving further away from the flight path. Turning-away is the wrong word though, I think IR655 was flying in a straight line, just the flight path was not directly toward Vincennes. This vector data is mapped pretty well in the 1990 Iranian ICJ submission on page 68 (79 in acrobat)[19], this page upside down in this scan though! From the map it seems IR655 would have passed about 4 nautical miles off the port side of the Vincennes, but almost right over the Montgomery. Rwendland (talk) 17:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Turning away would almost definitely be the wrong way to put it, as you are correct it (Flight 655) was on course and not maneuvering. However I suppose it wouldn't surprise me if the documentary did turn out to say that. Anynobody 05:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- I think this is actually a very important point for the article, ideally with a second source to confirm the Iranian map (though the U.S. did not contend this map in their ICJ response - I think it simply plots U.S./IATA data). It would be great if a Wikipedia mapping hero would independently create a GFDL detailed map of the incident from the DOD/IATA/Iranian data, it would greatly help understand this incident. If ICJ submissions are public domain (cannot work this out), taking the Iranian map would be a possibility. Rwendland (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- According to http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/public_domain/ (see "special cases" section), works from Iraq are "Not protected by US copyright law because they are not party to international copyright agreements." So we should be able to use the map from the filing.--agr (talk) 13:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
"Speedy deletion" of Iranian Injured kid image
Although the result of disscusion about the "licence" was to keep the image ,but the parctical result was to delete it in a ultra-fast manner : The image was free to use.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
- We only have your word to back that though, and the closing admin's salient point that ...The image may be in the public domain, or it may be GFDL, or failing that it may even be fair use.... which it may very well be. If so there should be a way for us English speakers to verify. Don't get me wrong, if this picture was on the cover of Time/Newsweek or the like I'd be happy to discuss a Fair Use rationale. Instead we have an image that comes from a site which doesn't even give a caption in English of what the reader is looking at exactly, and even if it did, we don't know who's picture it is. You can't assume that because it comes from an Iranian site that the person who took it was Iranian, what if it's a photo taken by a journalist from a country that does recognize international copyright and its owner wants to sue. I'm sorry to say that we'd (Wikipedia) be the ones dealing with the law since I doubt Iran would rush to help compensate some photographer because an Iranian website displayed and watermarked his/her picture. Anynobody 05:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
- The deleting admin changed his opinion and revert his deletion.But about the copyright problem , it was previously disscused and the overall result was that the image does not have a copyright problem Over all result:Keep .In this case , is copyright paranoia an excuse for censorship?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 22:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Sajed.ir as a reliable source?
Separate from the issue regarding our disputed image is whether the site could be cited as a source. I don't think it should be, but since there are those who disagree they should explain why at the Reliable sources noticeboard Anynobody 01:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- There have been a systematic effort to censor that image , first by doubting it's copyright license , then by it's claimed Unencyclopedicity and now by it's reliability. That's a picture released by an official source (a part of Iranian government) and the overall effort of the opponents is based on denying the reliability of a government (Iran). I'm not asking to believe anything that governments say or show, but deleting official statements of the governments with the rules that Wikipedia deletes the web logs or ordinary people's comments is impossible. If the opposing party thinks Iranian government is lying, they can add their comment to the text or their source to oppose it, but they can't simply omit the official Iranian government statement as it is "un reliable"! Last day , I send an e-mail to that site and discussed the problem here , their response was as fallows :
That translates as :"Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2008 10:34:20 +0330 /From: "Sajed Info" <info@sajed.ir> /To: aft19701357@yahoo.com /Subject: Re: NewComment /salam /shoma bayad be safheh marboot be ax link bedid va estenad konid be inkeh in ax tavashote www.sajed.ir kharidari shodeh hamrah ba haghe enteshare electroniki on dar web "
Again I connect them via phone number ((++98) (+21) 88346474) and discuss the matter that they does not believe on reliability of your photo, and that although I have linked to the page , but there is still denial against it : they said they will add the name of the photographer and the caption (in english and Persian) to that page.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)" Hi, you may link them to the (Sajed)page and allege to the fact that photo is purchased by the Sajed and its free permission for distribution on the web"
- Mr. Alborz Fallah. Sir. (You 'called them'?) You cannot just “make” any site you want into a RS. (off-subject concept but relevant here: the “Iranian Government” also denies that the holocaust happened, but that does not mean that everyone should believe it). It appears obvious to anyone here that the fight to push the photo of the dead little girl into this article is for propaganda purposes, and not for the truth in reporting. And surely not to add a quality contribution to the article. The same exact rejection will take place if I go to the Abortion article, and attempt to upload a clear photograph of a dead human fetus, blood smeared, and from a questionable source. Do not continue to re-add this photo. The photo will be deleted again. There are plenty of other websites where you can show it. The photo is better suited to be displayed in some Weblog (blog) somewhere, but not in an encyclopedia. Bwebb00 (talk) 18:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- Ms./Mr. Bwebb00. Madam/Sir. I am afraid one may differ on the interpretation of Alborz Fallah's work, and observe it as a genion effort to enhance quality of encyclopedia with a picture which depicts the extent of incident. One might see efforts toward deletation of picture as plain efforts of censorship and cover up. Farmanesh (talk) 23:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
- Bwebb00,the nature of abortion is different with shutting down a civilian airliner. If someone uses a picture in an article about an ordinary act to shock the reader, that would be wrong, but no one in no occasion, considers shutting down an airliner normal. US military is a power that perhaps has no match and there is no other way to prevent it from causing civilian damage other than showing and stressing the bitter outcome: Please don't deprive us(-possible next target!-) from this only remaining runaway. In the touchy environment of the Persian Gulf, deploying the military might of a superpower is equal to a bull in a china store. And to add , "the article about holocaust also has unpleasant photos"!. Thank you.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
- The issue is: How do we know the girl in the photo is an airliner crash victim? - Was this photo used by other sources? WhisperToMe (talk) 23:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Folks, I really appreciate the response on this thread, but it seems like Alborz Fallah has misunderstood the reason why I nominated the site to WP:RSN. It was because of its other content: Like the article constantly referring to the ship as U.S.S. Vincent. It's easy to imagine someone wanting to cite this gem and figured I'd "head 'em off at the pass." (This doesn't mean I've accepted the photo, far from it, it just means that I mean the rest of sajed.ir.) Anynobody 04:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- I removed the image because we do not know for sure if the girl is actually an IR655 victim. If the picture has appeared elsewhere in a reliable source I would add it back. WhisperToMe (talk) 21:12, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- We don't even know if the subject in the image is a girl. As for the USS Vincent issue, I don't know if that speaks to reliability or just a bad translation. If this was an official government website, they would have translated it correctly and properly captioned the image. --Dual Freq (talk) 22:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- There is an active discussion about it, I am not sure just unilatlary deciding upon it is the best way. If this girl is not a vistim of this incident then why her picture is in this gallery? It is not a gallery of random picture. It has a specified/mentioned subject. If you belive this picture is from anything other than the mentioned subject then you need to bring proof. It has a clear subject for the gallery.Farmanesh (talk) 04:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- (Dual Freq did you get a look at the title? There are too many issues with it and the others for me to list. I honestly don't think it's a mistranslation so much as a slip of whoever's memory who wrote it, irregardless the point is it's wrong in that no other source calls the ship that. Had the New York Times or another WP:RS made that mistake we'd be stuck with it.)
- Farmanesh this isn't about believe/don't believe so much as know/don't know. I understand you are stuck on the fact that some admin didn't care about its status at WP:PUI and "kept" it. What you seem to be misunderstanding is that being "kept" at WP:PUI is like a criminal being found innocent of a crime at the hospital. It means nothing because the hospital doesn't determine guilt or innocence just like Possibly Unfree Images doesn't determine if an image is deleted. (In the example a person saying they were found innocent at the hospital isn't going to carry much weight in court, the same way pointing out that someone at PUI said to keep it on Images for Deletion isn't really an argument.) Anynobody 05:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- I enjoyed your anology. I think before changing the picture here, we should wait for the discussion we are having on the deletation of the picture (in the image deletation page) to reach an end. Unilatraly deleting the picture here would not be helpful when we have an active discussion there. Farmanesh (talk) 13:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Summary of the "doubt section" until now:
A-The reference "Sajed.ir" could not be cited as a source :Anynobody
B-The picture is for propaganda purposes, and not for the truth in reporting [and is offensive] :Bwebb00
C-How do we know the girl in the photo is an airliner crash victim? :WhisperToMe
D-The site "Sajed.ir" is has errors :referring to the ship as U.S.S. Vincent instead of Vincennes :Anynobody,"If this was an official government website, they would have translated it correctly and properly captioned the image:Dual Freq - Answers:
A- "Sajed.ir" is a governmental website ,it is not a Self-published source. As it clearly written on it's logo(in any page), that is "Imposed War official website", A governmental claim can be wrong , but the tool for doubting it is not simply deleting it. You can add a section and state your doubt about the genuineity of the picture, but not to delete it.
B-If a picture is real, by itself it can't be propaganda. I think that picture is extremely offensive , but being offensive is not a reason for not showing it.
C-It is written on that page in Persian, if you mean you deny the Persian text ,please read section A
D- Using wrong words does not change the legal status of the user : do you think when George W. Bush uses a wrong word , his nuclear point of view is invalid?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Summary of the "doubt section" until now:
- We don't even know if the subject in the image is a girl or has anything to do with Iran Air 655. Uncaptioned, unsourced images are unencyclopedic. We can't play guess the caption games, we don't know what this image depicts, who it depicts, who took the photo or any other thing about this image. All we know is the least important part, that it came from a very low quality web gallery that you claim is the Iranian government. Anyone can call their website the official webpage of whatever. Why would an official Iranian government website about the Iraq-Iran war have a section about Rachel Corrie? What does her death have to do with the war and the holy defense of Iran? What does Bush have to do with this? Are you saying that he runs this website now? --Dual Freq (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- It has caption.But in Persian!
But the source is unknown.Are historical pictures with unknown source prohabited to use? I mean do you think this picture is unencyclopedic?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:33, 6 March 2008 (UTC):"The American warship's attack on Iranian plane" "حمله نظامی ناو آمریکائی به هواپیما ایرباس جمهوری اسلامی ایران"
- That's not a caption, that's the name of the gallery that its in. We don't know what this is a picture of, that make this image unencyclopedic. For all we know they placed it in the wrong gallery, since there is no caption, we do not know who or what it is. Nominate the other image for deletion if you have a problem with it, there are thousands of poorly sourced and improperly licensed images awaiting deletion. Its a big problem in wikipedia not an excuse to keep this image, see also Red herring. --Dual Freq (talk) 18:45, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Folks, really I meant for this section to be about the other content at the site relating to this incident. Even if the site is found to be an unreliable source that wouldn't necessarily disqualify the image as it's hosted content. For example, regarding the shoot down of Korean Airlines Flight 007 there is a website pushing the view that there were survivors and the Russians still have em. That site is totally unreliable because it puts forward a theory not accepted by mainstream sources, so citing its POV would be inappropriate. However it does have images and documents which can be verified and as such are acceptable in their original context. The site in question includes this image of a letter sent by Senator Jessie Helms to Boris Yeltsin. As it turns out this image has proven to be useless, but if it had a use then citing the image alone is ok. That's the same deal with this picture, sajed.ir could be unreliable and still the photo wouldn't be disqualified because of it. Anynobody 05:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Alborz Fallah, maybe it would be easier if I showed you an example of a site affiliated (or at least claiming it) with a foreign government, for you to see what I'm hoping for: A German site that's partnered with the German government or even better still a German government site. Note that it's in English, for the most part and at the bottom says:©2008 The Press and Information Office of the Federal Government Anynobody 05:49, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Even better: Iranian government site:© Copyright 2007 Presidency of The Islamic Republic of Iran. All Rights Reserved Anynobody 05:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I think that's a good progress ! Do you mean If I show that site is a governmental site , then there will be no problem ? As you can see , the site of Iranian Presidency adds no tag of "Iranian government" , in the case of sajed.ir,that is exactly the same as the site of Iranian Presidency :The site of Iranian presidency does not says it is a part of Iranian government , same as the sajed. The word "SAJED" itself is a syllabic abbreviation of "SAite Jameh-E Defaye moghadass (All including site of holy defense).It's so clear that is a part of Iranian government as it has been written here : [20].Or you can simply use google:General Mir-Faisal Bagherzadeh+Sacred Defense Foundation--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Felitsa
I think, but could be wrong, that everyone disputing this image has a concern we've been relatively quiet about, NPOV. I know I have, mostly because I couldn't think of an example image going the other way, needless POV against a group attacking the US. Then I happened upon verifiable US government images of an even more disturbing nature on 9/11, but you don't see any of them* in that article do you? Why not? Because it's assumed people will be horribly mangled in an occurrence like this, just the same as we can assume children died when a commercial airliner was shot down. (*Actual photos, uncensored of 9/11 victims so I must be emphatic don't click on these links if you mind real gore: Photo showing part of a 9/11 victim on the street below the WTC or this victim inside the Pentagon.
It's pretty obvious that the intent is to evoke an emotional response, known as a bias, which is exactly what WP:NPOV says not to do. Anynobody 05:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
- Good summary. I agree that the image of that child was probably released for propaganda purposes, specifically to invoke an emotive response, and that it's therefore POV. Further, I don't see how this image contributes to the appearance, structure or concept of this article as per Choosing appropriate illustrations. Socrates2008 (Talk) 05:50, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you very much :), cool sig BTW Anynobody 05:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
In the interests of full disclosure I planned on giving 24 hours for pro-image editors to respond to this point (NPOV) before I remove the image when I created this thread. I still do, but given the contentious nature of the image I felt it would be best to give a heads up on my intentions a few hours early rather than pointing out after removing it that 24 hours have gone by without a response. Anynobody 23:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and removed the image, as a compromise, I can live with, but won't defend a link to sajed.ir in the external links section. Anynobody 05:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well, as I said before, an image by itself can't be propaganda.A photo is a natural record of an event:how can it be propaganda?!
In showing a picture , how can anyone manipulate cognition of someone else?! Is it correct to say " When we see oxygen and Hydrogen combine to form water , that is a propaganda for the idea that water is formed by combination of oxygen and Hydrogen?"--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist
- Well, as I said before, an image by itself can't be propaganda.A photo is a natural record of an event:how can it be propaganda?!
- And why there is no similar images on 9/11 pages. That's because the difference between actual and perceptual (mental image of) idea of the "power of self-defense" in American vs. Iranian mentality. The American mind thinks it can and have to prevent such bitter events by using military force , and the Iranian mind think it have to (or have no other way than to) provoke the other side's intentions. Do you think if the preventive power (military power) of Iranian side was strong as the American, would they ever publish such images(of their slain kids)?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Alborz Fallah I didn't say it was propaganda, I said it serves no purpose but to evoke an emotional response, known as a bias, however I can answer your question because I agree that it is being used for that purpose: A photo is a natural record of an event:how can it be propaganda?! Here's how: 2006 Lebanon War photographs controversies, if a photo is claiming to be something it's not or has been set up/manipulated
And why there is no similar images on 9/11 pages. That's because the difference between actual and perceptual (mental image of) idea of the "power of self-defense" in American vs. Iranian mentality. You missed the point on this entirely if you were trying to explain why emotion provoking images aren't included in the 9/11 article, but I'll use your argument to prove my point. Essentially you're saying Iran is symbolized by the kid right? I'm sorry to have to be so blunt but that's just ridiculous wrong for several reasons:
- 1 Trying to symbolize a country's plight in the image of a dead kid is doing exactly what I said before, evoke an emotional response, and make people feel sorry for Iran through the kid creating a bias. Adding bias is what WP:NPOV is supposed to prevent.
- 2 Let's assume NPOV wasn't an issue of concern, I haven't seen any sources discussing Iran as an innocent child being tormented by the US, and unless one can be cited, the whole idea is nothing but your original research which is also another problem we have rules specifically addressing.
- 3 Assuming NPOV and OR weren't better reasons to exclude the image, which they are, there's the matter of how appropriate a message like that is for an encyclopedia. This isn't art or literature, it's for presenting facts only and not imparting a message.
To be clear, the reason those pictures don't appear on the 9/11 article, or those like the Lockerbie Bombing is because there is no purpose to such images except to engender negative feelings toward one side or another. It has nothing to do with mental images and everything to do with the rules. Anynobody 23:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
What just resulted in this rush?
Why in past day you have started deleting the picture? Why are we not waiting to get to a conclusion on the 'request for deletation' page? Unilateral, imature and abropt attemps to deletation would just result in an instable article. Please wait until that discussion reaches a conclusion. Patient is key when dealing with encyclopedic work. Come to think of, patient would have saved the life of the passengers of that airplane too. Farmanesh (talk) 13:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)