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::::::According to that discussion we should add all views and Sakellariou's is a view, because there was no Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian or Aromanian millet. Btw Sakellariou is the only one who says that Greeks were 300,000, while all the others put the number of the Greeks between 110,000 and 118,000. In 1908 the year of the census the Ottoman empire also held elections. For example according to Sakellariou Preveza was predominantly Greek sanjak, however, of the two deputies of Preveza, one was [[Hamdi Çami]] and the other Azmi Akalin, who took the Turkish citizenship after the war.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:ZjarriRrethues|<font color="white">'''— ''ZjarriRrethues'' —'''</font>]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:ZjarriRrethues|talk]]</sup> 10:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC) |
::::::According to that discussion we should add all views and Sakellariou's is a view, because there was no Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian or Aromanian millet. Btw Sakellariou is the only one who says that Greeks were 300,000, while all the others put the number of the Greeks between 110,000 and 118,000. In 1908 the year of the census the Ottoman empire also held elections. For example according to Sakellariou Preveza was predominantly Greek sanjak, however, of the two deputies of Preveza, one was [[Hamdi Çami]] and the other Azmi Akalin, who took the Turkish citizenship after the war.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:ZjarriRrethues|<font color="white">'''— ''ZjarriRrethues'' —'''</font>]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:ZjarriRrethues|talk]]</sup> 10:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::All other put the Greeks between 110k and 118? I don't thing so [[http://lfh.edu.gr/histoiregeographie/sites/default/files/Ressources%20pedagogiques/conseils_bibliographiques/WorkBook3.pdf]] [[http://books.google.com/books?id=082osLxyBDgC&pg=PA560&dq=1908%2Bottoman%2Bvilayet%2Bgreeks%2Bjews&hl=el&ei=f6k9Ta3mBs_NswaXw7zzBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Ottoman%20Census%20Figures%20For%20Provinces%20Subject%20to%20Population%20Movements%22&f=false]], and the wp:ani you filled 2 months ago was quite clear. As I see the 'Albanian Catholics' estimation in the region is just science fiction, so this estimate has to go.[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 14:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC) |
::::::::All other put the Greeks between 110k and 118? I don't thing so [[http://lfh.edu.gr/histoiregeographie/sites/default/files/Ressources%20pedagogiques/conseils_bibliographiques/WorkBook3.pdf]] [[http://books.google.com/books?id=082osLxyBDgC&pg=PA560&dq=1908%2Bottoman%2Bvilayet%2Bgreeks%2Bjews&hl=el&ei=f6k9Ta3mBs_NswaXw7zzBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Ottoman%20Census%20Figures%20For%20Provinces%20Subject%20to%20Population%20Movements%22&f=false]], and the wp:ani you filled 2 months ago was quite clear. As I see the 'Albanian Catholics' estimation in the region is just science fiction, so this estimate has to go.[[User:Alexikoua|Alexikoua]] ([[User talk:Alexikoua|talk]]) 14:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Alexikoua for the usual reasons you're [[WP:IDIDNTHEARIT]] and you'll keep revert-warring. Btw you're confirming the millet system with that link.--<span style="background-color: maroon; color: white">[[User:ZjarriRrethues|<font color="white">'''— ''ZjarriRrethues'' —'''</font>]]</span> <sup>[[User_talk:ZjarriRrethues|talk]]</sup> 14:39, 6 March 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:39, 6 March 2011
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Demographics
What Greek writers think and consider official isn't related to the article, so please don't add their pov again, while removing non-Greek ones. If you want to add them as what the Greek writers consider to be official do so, but not by removing everything else. Btw at the same time the Greek writer considers the Ottoman census as favouring the Albanians and then he creates his own estimates about the true numbers[1], so please don't add again his estimates.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:25, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Btw Alexikoua Sakellariou's works are just the Greek perspective(i.e pov) [2].---— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- Zjarri plz avoid massive reverting full sourced material with highly ultranationlistic arguments: 1. This is not what Greek writers believe but about the official Ottoman census. 2. Plz avoid nationalistically addicted comments like: 'what Greeks writers believe'.... In fact this is what top graded academic& off course reliable material descibes a situation, 3. The map you removed should stay since its about education in this Vilayet.
In fact if someone wants to add also non-official statistics we have some 10-15 of them. But removing an official census is the definition of desruption in wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Sakellariou is 100% neutral (I remind you that in past you admitted that this work is fine) and is awarded by top graded international institutions. Please read what wp:pov is.Alexikoua (talk) 23:55, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- What Sakellariou thinks the census meant to say and his own estimates are irrelevant and please read the above review of his work about his neutrality. If those 10-15 statistics exist why don't you add them on the talkpage(and the map is on the article)? Btw please don't lower the lever the debate with comments about ultranationalism since you're the one trying to prove that there was dominant ethnic group in a vast area, while at the same time diminishing every other ethnic group. The official figures have Albanians, Aromanians, Bulgarians, Turks, Romani and Jews and all of them have been removed from the Greek author(whose books are labeled as a nationalist perspective), while the Greeks became 300,000 --— ZjarriRrethues — talk 23:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
- It seems you are completely oring here: 'all of them have been removed from the Greek author'? 'whose books are labeled as a nationalist perspective'?. Please read what wp:pov is. You cited another book, which is also wp:npov (off course the url you gave doesn't claim that the author is pov, but that it mention, among others, this view, and doesn't adopt it).Alexikoua (talk) 00:06, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
To be more precise the author of this part of the book (it's a collective work) is B. Kondis.Alexikoua (talk) 00:08, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Alexikoua it seems that you can't even understand basic geography of the Balkans, since those northern parts are catholic Albanian areas.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, you are wrong, south of Shkumbin river (the northern border of the Vilayet) there are not catholic Albanian areas.Alexikoua (talk) 00:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Alexikoua do you even know where Shkumbin is or the fact that catholic Albanians live below Shkumbin too?--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 00:17, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, you are wrong, south of Shkumbin river (the northern border of the Vilayet) there are not catholic Albanian areas.Alexikoua (talk) 00:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Please check the map I've provided. Off course claiming that there are Catholics in this area is complete science fiction. Also please do not remove official statistics provided be reliable sources. In general if we don't like a work it doesn't mean it's non 'rs'. In fact this work is rs.Alexikoua (talk) 00:22, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sakellariou seems like a perfectly good source. If anyone think he isn't they should post at WP:RSN, but I doubt they will get the answer they want. Athenean (talk) 02:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- If his works were such good sources then why did you make this comment [4]? As on Byllis and Krokodil Klada only RfC or RSN will make you not revert everything that doesn't support Greek nationalist theories.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 06:44, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
- Sakellariou seems like a perfectly good source. If anyone think he isn't they should post at WP:RSN, but I doubt they will get the answer they want. Athenean (talk) 02:33, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Ottoman Statistics
In order to estimate the population composition ,according to the official ottoman statistics, we have to take into consideration what does the terms used to mean. The term "Greek" doesnt mean necessarily those who were greek speaking,but those who were subject to the Ecumenical Patriarchate and used to have ,more or less, a greek consiousness.But judging by what language used to speak , no matter consiousness,education language or religious subordination,the numbers are not the same. So,what are we talking here about? About Albanians or albanian speaking, about Greeks or greek speaking, about orthodox christians or muslims?Lysus.KT (talk) 10:13, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Demographics
Please be precise since no Ottoman census ever documented its population's ethnicity but only the Millet (Ottoman Empire) i.e please be precise and attribute the views of the various scholars to them not to the Ottoman statistics. Btw there was no Albanian millet, so it's impossible for anyone to find any Albanian population documented in any of the 19-20th century censi i.e Athenean please don't attribute to Sakellariou issues that don't exist.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:39, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- [5] you can find the whole section on google books or read Schwanders brief section about the millets [6], so please don't make attributions.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:53, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- I still don't see why a 'census' that counts so many thousands of catholic Albanians in southern Albanian nw Greece should be taken into account. In case this can't be confirmed the specific source should go, per latest wp:ani.Alexikoua (talk) 07:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- You and Athenean are ignoring every basic issue about the Ottoman Empire statistics. Btw in your blind revert you removed Golen too, although I had fixed the link. I'm going to ANI because you and Athenean are edit-warring together for the usual reasons.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:24, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but on the one hand you claim that Ottoman Empire didn't count ethnicities but on the other hand add supposed statistics that are based on ethnicity. You have to became precise on your arguments, also Iremind you that the latest wp:ani you filled was very clear, recycling again and again the same discussions can not lead somewhere.Alexikoua (talk) 09:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- According to that discussion we should add all views and Sakellariou's is a view, because there was no Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian or Aromanian millet. Btw Sakellariou is the only one who says that Greeks were 300,000, while all the others put the number of the Greeks between 110,000 and 118,000. In 1908 the year of the census the Ottoman empire also held elections. For example according to Sakellariou Preveza was predominantly Greek sanjak, however, of the two deputies of Preveza, one was Hamdi Çami and the other Azmi Akalin, who took the Turkish citizenship after the war.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- All other put the Greeks between 110k and 118? I don't thing so [[7]] [[8]], and the wp:ani you filled 2 months ago was quite clear. As I see the 'Albanian Catholics' estimation in the region is just science fiction, so this estimate has to go.Alexikoua (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- Alexikoua for the usual reasons you're WP:IDIDNTHEARIT and you'll keep revert-warring. Btw you're confirming the millet system with that link.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 14:39, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- All other put the Greeks between 110k and 118? I don't thing so [[7]] [[8]], and the wp:ani you filled 2 months ago was quite clear. As I see the 'Albanian Catholics' estimation in the region is just science fiction, so this estimate has to go.Alexikoua (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- According to that discussion we should add all views and Sakellariou's is a view, because there was no Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian or Aromanian millet. Btw Sakellariou is the only one who says that Greeks were 300,000, while all the others put the number of the Greeks between 110,000 and 118,000. In 1908 the year of the census the Ottoman empire also held elections. For example according to Sakellariou Preveza was predominantly Greek sanjak, however, of the two deputies of Preveza, one was Hamdi Çami and the other Azmi Akalin, who took the Turkish citizenship after the war.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 10:11, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but on the one hand you claim that Ottoman Empire didn't count ethnicities but on the other hand add supposed statistics that are based on ethnicity. You have to became precise on your arguments, also Iremind you that the latest wp:ani you filled was very clear, recycling again and again the same discussions can not lead somewhere.Alexikoua (talk) 09:41, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- You and Athenean are ignoring every basic issue about the Ottoman Empire statistics. Btw in your blind revert you removed Golen too, although I had fixed the link. I'm going to ANI because you and Athenean are edit-warring together for the usual reasons.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 09:24, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
- I still don't see why a 'census' that counts so many thousands of catholic Albanians in southern Albanian nw Greece should be taken into account. In case this can't be confirmed the specific source should go, per latest wp:ani.Alexikoua (talk) 07:32, 6 March 2011 (UTC)