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::::I looked at the history of edits on the three articles, and other people have tried to delete these comments about the Frankopans before for being irrelevant and biased, only to have you revert their edits. You seem to have a very strong personal interest in this. Are you the original author of the comments? [[User:Lilipo25|Lilipo25]] ([[User talk:Lilipo25|talk]]) 22:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
::::I looked at the history of edits on the three articles, and other people have tried to delete these comments about the Frankopans before for being irrelevant and biased, only to have you revert their edits. You seem to have a very strong personal interest in this. Are you the original author of the comments? [[User:Lilipo25|Lilipo25]] ([[User talk:Lilipo25|talk]]) 22:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC) |
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:::::Nothing to add further here, especially not on [[WP:PERSONAL]], except that she did falsify information to prove a point which cannot be proved. That is not only a scholarly fact but simple truth and reality. If you have any issue with it and want to defend her family's moral integrity, then sorry, that's not our job neither our personal opinion as editors matter. We cite reliable sources and they are clear about the controversy.--[[User:Miki Filigranski|Miki Filigranski]] ([[User talk:Miki Filigranski|talk]]) 01:19, 29 May 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 01:20, 29 May 2019
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Fürst Frankopan
The Frankopan family had the title of prince (Fürst ) before that of count (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammtafel_des_kroatischen_Fürsten-Adelsgeschlechts_Frankopan, https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankopan). RudiLefkowitz (talk) 21:27, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Family Name Controversy
Someone has copied and pasted the same two lengthy and rather biased paragraphs disparaging the Frankopan family for their use of the surname - and claiming that their cousin is trying to "save the reputation of his family name" by disavowing their use of it - into the Wikipedia entries for Dr. de Frankopan and her two eldest children, Peter Frankopan and Lady Nicholas Windsor. This appears to be a personal agenda against the family and not unbiased encyclopedia-worthy content; it has little to do with the lives or accomplishments of any of the three subjects, being entirely about an action taken by Dr. de Frankopan's husband (father of Peter and Lady Windsor).
These two irrelevant paragraphs currently make up most of Dr. de Frankopan's entry; indeed, I am not sure she merits an entry at all if this and a list of her children is all there is to say about her.
I have considerably trimmed down the paragraphs in Peter Frankopan's entry and would recommend (at the very least) doing the same here; this controversy is not worthy of more than a cursory mention (if any at all), and certainly not in the very biased way it is presented. Lilipo25 (talk) 11:52, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, a short paragraph which would link to the Frankopan family#Doimi de Lupis's name claiming section is enough, but as you already mentioned, I would advise starting a deletion process because of lack of WP:N. The paragraph's information is not biased, this a serious falsification which they tried to use for personal gain. There's no agenda against them, they made it themselves. They want to rewrite history, take the identity of a noble family with which they don't have anything in common, take their supposed noble titles (an unlawful act that would have been punished with prison in the 19th century Austrian Empire) and so on, see here. If anything specific about this controversy should be particularly related and mentioned with Ingrid is that she influenced and gave false information to Luc Orešković, author of Les Frangipani: un exemple de la réputation des lignages au XVIIe siècle en Europe (2003), to prove the existence of "Princes of Doimi de Frankopan", which never existed, altering names on reproduced documents and so on. Ironically, if the subject in question is notable for anything then that is for attempted fraud.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 22:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that the paragraphs need to be shortened in the other articles, and that this article should be deleted for lack of notability. But I'm afraid it is completely irrelevant that taking a new name was an "unlawful act that would have been punished with prison in the 19th century Austrian Empire" - it is legal now in the United Kingdom, where they live, for people to change their names to whatever they wish and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned; they are not subject to 19th-century Austrian Empire laws. And your statements about the family contain a great deal of conjecture and bias - saying "they want to rewrite history" and "this is a serious falsification", etc. is not scholarly fact, it is merely personal opinion. It is therefore not relevant to an encyclopedia article, which must be based on facts alone. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:44, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- You misunderstood what I said, taking a noble title not a surname was an unlawful act, and my statements are not my statements nor personal opinion, they are scholarly facts, that's why I provided you with a scholarly reference published in a journal of the Croatian Institute of History. It is highly relevant to an encyclopedic article.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:47, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- It makes absolutely no difference if you're referring to using a noble title or taking a name - both are equally irrelevant because this is not the 19th century Austrian Empire, and neither one is at all illegal in 21st-century Great Britain. Citing a 200-year-old law from a defunct empire and the archaic punishment it brought back then as proof that their use of a title is 'unlawful' or 'serious' in today's world - or deserves to be included in an encyclopedia article - is, frankly, silly.
- You misunderstood what I said, taking a noble title not a surname was an unlawful act, and my statements are not my statements nor personal opinion, they are scholarly facts, that's why I provided you with a scholarly reference published in a journal of the Croatian Institute of History. It is highly relevant to an encyclopedic article.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:47, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I agree that the paragraphs need to be shortened in the other articles, and that this article should be deleted for lack of notability. But I'm afraid it is completely irrelevant that taking a new name was an "unlawful act that would have been punished with prison in the 19th century Austrian Empire" - it is legal now in the United Kingdom, where they live, for people to change their names to whatever they wish and that's all that matters as far as the law is concerned; they are not subject to 19th-century Austrian Empire laws. And your statements about the family contain a great deal of conjecture and bias - saying "they want to rewrite history" and "this is a serious falsification", etc. is not scholarly fact, it is merely personal opinion. It is therefore not relevant to an encyclopedia article, which must be based on facts alone. Lilipo25 (talk) 15:44, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- I'm afraid that "they want to rewrite history" and "this is a serious falsification" are indeed opinions no matter who has said it. They cannot be considered scholarly facts by any stretch of the imagination.
- I looked at the history of edits on the three articles, and other people have tried to delete these comments about the Frankopans before for being irrelevant and biased, only to have you revert their edits. You seem to have a very strong personal interest in this. Are you the original author of the comments? Lilipo25 (talk) 22:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
- Nothing to add further here, especially not on WP:PERSONAL, except that she did falsify information to prove a point which cannot be proved. That is not only a scholarly fact but simple truth and reality. If you have any issue with it and want to defend her family's moral integrity, then sorry, that's not our job neither our personal opinion as editors matter. We cite reliable sources and they are clear about the controversy.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 01:19, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
- I looked at the history of edits on the three articles, and other people have tried to delete these comments about the Frankopans before for being irrelevant and biased, only to have you revert their edits. You seem to have a very strong personal interest in this. Are you the original author of the comments? Lilipo25 (talk) 22:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)