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Although [[Fact sheet on India]] was kept at AfD as factual, it's clearly a [[WP:CFORK]] of this article. It's also not ''just'' a list of statistics, but provides commentary disguised in table form. For example [[Fact_sheet_on_India#Quality_of_life|its quality of life section]] tells us that the following factors affect it: Population (2nd of 217), Population growth rate (102nd of 212), Ethnic diversity index within the country (17th of 160), Cultural diversity index within the country (5th of 160), Labour force (2nd), Human Development Index --given dead last-- (134th of 187). I'd really like to see a [[wp:secondary]] source which discusses the quality of life in India in these terms, and particularly with that emphasis on the various indices. It seems to me a [[WP:SYNT]] attempt trying to bury the actual indices that are normally discussed; see [[Quality of life]]. Not a trace of [[GDP per capita]] and so forth. I think this "fact sheet" is mostly a subtle form of POV pushing. Whatever useful material is in there should be merged here (not necessarily all of it), and then it should be turned into a redirect. [[User:Tijfo098|Tijfo098]] ([[User talk:Tijfo098|talk]]) 04:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC) |
Although [[Fact sheet on India]] was kept at AfD as factual, it's clearly a [[WP:CFORK]] of this article. It's also not ''just'' a list of statistics, but provides commentary disguised in table form. For example [[Fact_sheet_on_India#Quality_of_life|its quality of life section]] tells us that the following factors affect it: Population (2nd of 217), Population growth rate (102nd of 212), Ethnic diversity index within the country (17th of 160), Cultural diversity index within the country (5th of 160), Labour force (2nd), Human Development Index --given dead last-- (134th of 187). I'd really like to see a [[wp:secondary]] source which discusses the quality of life in India in these terms, and particularly with that emphasis on the various indices. It seems to me a [[WP:SYNT]] attempt trying to bury the actual indices that are normally discussed; see [[Quality of life]]. Not a trace of [[GDP per capita]] and so forth. I think this "fact sheet" is mostly a subtle form of POV pushing. Whatever useful material is in there should be merged here (not necessarily all of it), and then it should be turned into a redirect. [[User:Tijfo098|Tijfo098]] ([[User talk:Tijfo098|talk]]) 04:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 05:54, 22 September 2012
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
India is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on December 3, 2004. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Nominations of images for the cities template
Cities image discussions on hold
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On hold Since there is some question as to whether the template is useful at all, this selection process is currently on hold. The relevant discussion is on WP:DRN. --regentspark (comment) 16:17, 12 September 2012 (UTC) Nominations are invited for inclusion in the "largest urban agglomerations" template which is likely to contain two images, possibly rotating so don't limit your proposals. Nominations must be submitted below (in the form of a Wikipedia image file) by 00:00 Saturday, 01 October 2012. The images should be high resolution and in focus and should be recent images of India's cities rather than historical ones. You are welcome to analyze the nominations, but no voting now. Voting will begin after 01 October 2012. The exact number of images selected will be decided based on the discussion in the subsection "Discussion on format and number of images" below. NominationsFowler&fowler's imagesCityscapes 1
Mrt3366's imagesImages for Cityscape
Discussion on format and number of images
Discussion on imagesComments on specific images
General comments on imagesDiscussion on processShould this section be moved to the template's talk page? --Anbu121 (talk me) 18:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Having finally read the long, now closed discussion at DRN (and the shorter one at RfC), it seems to me this section, "Nominations of images for the cities template", is dead in the water. Perhaps it should be closed/collapsed, to make this talk page easier to read (it's currently quite busy). Maybe some of the images could be added to the "Nominations of images for Economy section rotation" discussion, if any are appropriate (although I see there are already some city/urban images there). Perhaps they could be saved for a future discussion on another section, like "Demographics", where the text mentions India's large cities. It is a short section though, without much if any space for additional images. Anyway, just a proposal to close/collapse this section. I wanted to catch up here but got sidetracked into reading the DRN, which ate up all the time I had. Looked clear after reading that the DRN resulted in no consensus and no agreement on any compromise. As the DRN is closed now can we close this section? Pfly (talk) 07:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
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Pointless Discussion: Bhārat Gaṇarājya to Bhāratiya Gaṇarājya
Per the request to discuss the change of Bhārat to Bhāratiya that was made of me here, is it okay if Bhārat is changed to Bhāratiya in the lead and infobox of the article because the Republic of India is (to my knowledge) known by the name Bhāratiya Gaṇarājya and not Bhārat Gaṇarājya, as also indicated by the Official names of India article? However that article also needs citations and I'm trying to find them.
P.S: Whatever happened to WP:BB and WP:AGF? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HarshAJ (talk • contribs) 02:48, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- My bad for not signing the comment. --Harsh Mujhse baat kijiye(Talk)(Contribs) 02:55, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- It should be Bharatiya as that would mean "Indian Republic" (the equivalent of Republic of India) and also the term that's commonly used both within India and outside (CIA factbook is a source). "Bharat Ganarajya" translates to "India Republic" which is incorrect. This has also been discussed in the past so it should be in the archives. —SpacemanSpiff 04:38, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- I did change it to Bhartiya but was asked to discuss the change in the edit summary of the revert of the said change. So, here I am. Will change back if no dissidents are encountered in a week, if that's OKAY. --Harsh Mujhse baat kijiye(Talk)(Contribs) 04:57, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Let's restore your edit then—no objection from me. I suspected your edit was correct at first, but wanted to make sure that no one would offer a good reason here why a grammatically wrong name would persist at the top of the page for years after being read by millions of people, at least some of whom know Hindi, and survive intensive lead edits. As SpacemanSpiff stated, it is there in the archives, but then someone changed it back. Strange. Saravask 05:19, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- I did change it to Bhartiya but was asked to discuss the change in the edit summary of the revert of the said change. So, here I am. Will change back if no dissidents are encountered in a week, if that's OKAY. --Harsh Mujhse baat kijiye(Talk)(Contribs) 04:57, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- It should be Bharatiya as that would mean "Indian Republic" (the equivalent of Republic of India) and also the term that's commonly used both within India and outside (CIA factbook is a source). "Bharat Ganarajya" translates to "India Republic" which is incorrect. This has also been discussed in the past so it should be in the archives. —SpacemanSpiff 04:38, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
I am unable to find any good source and I also understand that Bharatiya Ganarajya makes more sense but you are wrong just check this pic passport. It is written as Bharat Ganarajya not Bharatiya Ganarajya --sarvajna (talk) 06:15, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Interesting! Now going off to do intense Googling. This discrepancy on the Passport is weird. --Harsh Mujhse baat kijiye(Talk)(Contribs) 14:28, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Compare it with "Bharat Sarkar", which is used for Indian government, officially. So, I think, it's correct to use "Bhārat Gaṇarājya" AshLey Msg 09:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- As far as I can see, there is no higher authority than the government documents like passport, etc. Bharat appears to be the conventional term and should be retained, even though it may not literally translate into the English equivalent. Secret of success (talk) 06:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Compare it with "Bharat Sarkar", which is used for Indian government, officially. So, I think, it's correct to use "Bhārat Gaṇarājya" AshLey Msg 09:51, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Jainism and Sikhism
On what basis are Jainism and Sikhism considered "major world religions" as mentioned in the second para of the lead? As per the article Major religious groups, there are around 25 million Sikhs and 10 million Jains worldwide, which are respectively 0.35% and 0.14% of the world population. They do not appear to be major religions of the world in the presence of these statistics. Secret of success (talk) 09:41, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Even the article Major religious groups includes Sikhs and Jains among 20 or so major religions of the world. The term "major world religion" is not synonymous with 4 largest religions of the world. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 05:46, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Searches like this and this seriously raise doubts on that claim. Also, both the sources cited in the major religious groups article do not use the term "major world religion" or anything similar. A recognized religion is not necessarily a dominant religion. Secret of success (talk) 07:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- You have a valid point. Judaism is at times included in major religions,[3] but not Sikhism or Jainism. We can drop the term "major" from the lead instead of dropping Jainism or Sikhism, if that is what you are suggesting. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 09:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm no expert on phrasing. But dropping the word major would say something like "Four of the world's religions — Jainism, Sikhism....." which would not be appropriate because there were other religions that originated from India. I think dropping Jainism and Sikhism would be the best option at hand, and something like "Two of the worlds major religions — Hinduism and Buddhism..." sounds better. Thoughts? Secret of success (talk) 06:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Jainism and Sikhism are documented as "world religions" in many sources. I don't think any other world religion (Donyi-Polo?) originated in India. If you can find instances of it, feel free to add it to the lead. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 07:50, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- I'm no expert on phrasing. But dropping the word major would say something like "Four of the world's religions — Jainism, Sikhism....." which would not be appropriate because there were other religions that originated from India. I think dropping Jainism and Sikhism would be the best option at hand, and something like "Two of the worlds major religions — Hinduism and Buddhism..." sounds better. Thoughts? Secret of success (talk) 06:13, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- You have a valid point. Judaism is at times included in major religions,[3] but not Sikhism or Jainism. We can drop the term "major" from the lead instead of dropping Jainism or Sikhism, if that is what you are suggesting. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 09:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
- Searches like this and this seriously raise doubts on that claim. Also, both the sources cited in the major religious groups article do not use the term "major world religion" or anything similar. A recognized religion is not necessarily a dominant religion. Secret of success (talk) 07:10, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Request for comment
There is a Request for comment about the utility/redundancy of Largest cities/city population templates in general. This is an open invitation for participating in the request for comment initiated on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/City population templates. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. Mrt3366(Talk?) 11:59, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- You cannot keep changing the statement of the RfC long after people have responded to it! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:09, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
Map template
Why was the map template shrinked? The legend in the map is now totally unreadable. --Anbu121 (talk me) 22:08, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
- As with the official name, feel free to revert it to whatever size you want (it was 500px before and left-aligned, which crowded out text on my screen); can't speak for others here, however, who might want a different size/alignment/map/etc. Saravask 00:48, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Demographics section update required?
The Demographics sections states:
- The 2001 census reported that Hinduism, with over 800 million adherents (80.5% of the population), was the largest religion in India; it is followed by Islam (13.4%), Christianity (2.3%), Sikhism (1.9%), Buddhism (0.8%), Jainism (0.4%), Judaism, Zoroastrianism, and the Bahá'í Faith.[248] India has the world's largest Hindu, Sikh, Jain, Zoroastrian, and Bahá'í populations, and has the third-largest Muslim population and the largest Muslim population for a non-Muslim majority country.
This does not include the 6.6% people who are irreligious according to a 2006 study by the Dentsu Communication Institute Inc.,a Japanese research institute.
- A Data Book of Sixty Countries, Japan: Dentsu Communication Institute Inc., Research Centre, 2006
The source is in Japanese but it is in use on Wikipedia on the article of Irreligion. If we believe this number then this could be a significant improvement to the article, putting irreligion above Christianity, Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, etc. Does anyone have any other sources that corroborate this information? Hoshigaki (talk) 05:18, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Hello! Thanks for the input. As you noted the ref is in Japanese (or something similar) and hence i am unable to read it. But i am sure whatever you translated here is not incorrect.
However, the reliablity of this source is a bit doubtful as compared to the census conducted by the Government of India. ||Dharmadhyaksha|| {T/C} 08:05, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
Nominations of images for Economy section rotation
Nominations are invited for images in a rotation in the Economy section of the India page. Here are some ground rules (open to be discussed and changed by consensus): Nominations must be submitted below (in the form of a Wikipedia image file) by 00:00 Saturday, 29 September 2012. The images should be high resolution and in focus. Exceptions may be made for historical images. Images that illustrate important aspects of India's economy (infrastructure, industry, agriculture, trade fairs, meetings) are acceptable. You are welcome to analyze the nominations, but no voting now. Voting will begin after 29 September 2012 for a total of eight images.
A Protocol for nominating images to the Economy section of India
We are not selecting featured pictures, but we are selecting pictures for a featured article, and we should aim high.
Protocol
- All and any editors are welcome to nominate still images or short video clips (less than 90 seconds in length)
- One editor may nominate no more than 20 items. These will be considered for inclusion in two rotation templates (of 8 items each) featuring the following content from India#Economy section:
- The image already in place, File:Bombay Stock Exchange 3.jpg, will be grandfathered into the template; 7 more items will be added from:
- Tertiary sector or services, which contributes 50% to India's GDP.
- Secondary sector or Manufacturing, which contributes 24% to India's GDP.
- The image already in place, File:Ploughing with cattle in West Bengal.jpg, will be grandfathered into the template; 7 more items will be added from:
- Primary sector, (agriculture, fisheries and mining) which contributes 20% to India's GDP, but comprises 55% of its labor force.
- Economic indices: Economic growth, poverty, and nutrition.
- The image already in place, File:Bombay Stock Exchange 3.jpg, will be grandfathered into the template; 7 more items will be added from:
- All still images should be of a high resolution, preferably, at least "large" sized, i.e. 1024x768 pixels or approximate equivalents. Exceptions may be made for unique historical images. All video clips should be visually clear and noise-free.
- All still images (again excepting unique historical images) should be of a high technical standard. Tersely, this means:
- Good contrast, accurate exposure and neutral colour balance.
- No significant compression artifacts, burned-out highlights, image noise ("graininess") or other processing anomalies. Examples of common technical problems can be found here.
- Main subject in focus, good composition and no highly distracting or obstructing elements.
- The visual content's encyclopedic value (referred to as "EV") is given priority over its artistic value. (While effects such as black and white, sepia, oversaturation, and abnormal angles may be visually pleasing, they often detract from the accurate depiction of the subject.)
- The visual content should be verifiable. It should be broadly supported by facts in the Economy section, and in turn, illustrate them.
- The visual content should not be inappropriately digitally manipulated.
- Typical acceptable manipulation includes cropping, perspective correction, sharpening/blurring, and limited colour/exposure correction.
- Any manipulation which causes the main subject to be misrepresented is unacceptable.
- The image captions should strive for balance and neutrality, and, in the cogent words of user:ApostleVonColorado below, which I quote in their entirety, "Include both sides – the problems and the achievements. If image shows an informal shop/home brewing of something, the caption would be better if it includes a sentence on formal producers/industrial production. If image shows a formal producers/industrial production of something, the caption would be better if it includes a sentence on informal enterprises/home brewing if any. A good caption would not leave an impression of zero change and zero progress, or an impression of 100% change and 100% progress. And finally, the key claims in the caption would be better if they are verifiable and cited."
More coming. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:50, 11 September 2012 (UTC) Last updated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:15, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
Discussion of protocol
(Please wait until construction is complete.)
Pardon me, I couldn’t wait since I oppose this obfuscatory, mostly superfluous and exceedingly arbitrary (in all the senses of the term) “protocol”, in general. There are, however, other things also which I take issue with:
Obfuscation:
- Most of us I think are responsible and aware of the fact that we "are not selecting featured pictures, but we are selecting pictures for a featured article”, but what exactly do you mean “we should aim high."?? Which exactly is high enough?? And who made that up? And "should" doesn't mean "obligated to".
Autocratic restrictions:
- "One editor may nominate no more than 14 items." - I disagree with this needless arbitrary "rule". That number is arbitrary. The more variety there is, the better. Nobody is actually going to nominate any more than, say, 20 images anyway, so why this limit of 14? You can is one editor may vote for no more than 14 images.
- Then there comes this unnecessary limit of 7 images on tertiary and secondary sectors that is actually fuelling the growth of India's economy (74% of India’s GDP). And what about infrastructure???
Undue weight:
- I also think there is a lot of undue weight (of 8 images in total) to Primary sector, (agriculture, fisheries and mining) which comprises only 20% to India's GDP. It "comprises 55% of work force" - so what? Just a statement would suffice juxtaposed with 2-3 images.
- Furthermore, I don't like the idea of including video clips primarily because it - I think - increases the size of the page. Many, like me, have slow net connection presently.
Highly vague:
- The words like "good", "significant", "broadly", etc are perilously amorphous and subjective, we ought to keep that in mind. And, although it might be preferable, it is certainly not obligatory.
- Also, "the visual content should be verifiable." - what does it mean? This doesn't smell right. Don't raise the bar unnecessarily.
- I don't agree with 4.3 either. "Main subject in focus, good composition and no highly distracting or obstructing elements." - "Good" is again a very vague. Why can't we just let the voters decide.
- Change the tone of the proposed protocol, presently it seems like fiat, it should sound like recommendations. I want to see more usage of the words like "preferable", or phrases like "it would be better if".
Balance:
- [before AVC's comment was quoted in its entirety] About point 8. AVC didn’t stretch it to that level. There is a big difference – I think - between “include both sides - the problems and the achievements” and “Captions should mention all scales of an economic operation.”
All this needless sophistication (that I am trying to bring attention to) which, not to mention, complicates this pretty simple issue further, is not at all helpful. Why this much redundant complexity and severity that will definitely cause confusion? Wikipedia is neither a democracy nor an autocracy, mind it. Mrt3366(Talk?) 08:38, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- Comment: Thanks Fowler. I think your protocol is very clear and makes a lot of sense. We need to ensure that due weight is given to various aspects of India's economy and your differing requirements for the two rotations does that very well. We also need to try to use quality images and it makes sense to formally state that. Perhaps we could up the number of images per user to 20 since Mrt3366 believes that 14 per user is too little and I'm hoping we can keep his long comments (that are unaccompanied by substantive suggestions) under control because they are becoming a distraction. Mrt3366, I tried to make sense of your post above but am puzzled. Are you suggesting that we don't ask editors to submit good images? Or that we don't care about composition and subject matter? You do realize that the images are not mere decoration but need to have encyclopedic value, don't you? --regentspark (comment) 12:52, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- @RP Thanks. Upped to 20. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:17, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Mrt3366, I tried to make sense of your post above but am puzzled. Are you suggesting that we don't ask editors to submit good images?" - I am saying do not make it sound like a mandate. Best quality images are preferable, yes, but it is not obligatory.
Like Steve Summit stated above. The images to be nominated need not be of featured quality to be eligible for inclusion in a Featured Article, get it? Don't raise the bar redundantly high to filter out the images some of us may be inclined to exclude. Take it to WT:FA if you would like. I am saying an image may be smaller than "1024x768 pixels" and still be eligible for inclusion. If you cannot cite a guideline or policy, then do not start an arbitrary protocol. That is not how wikipedia works. Some of the bits will be more helpful if they used the phrase "preferable but not compulsory". Mrt3366(Talk?) 13:43, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- Mrt3366, good quality should be obligatory, not optional. There are plenty of images out there to choose from and it doesn't make sense to pick a poor quality image so asking editors to submit only good quality ones makes perfect sense. Do also note that nowhere in the protocol does it say that images need to be of featured quality (though I do hope we end up with close to featured quality pictures at the least). --regentspark (comment) 14:05, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Mrt3366, good quality should be obligatory, not optional" - Yes you may think so, but "good" is a subjective word. Besides, you're focusing on quality over subject, it seems. Nobody is saying we ought to pick pick "a poor quality image" when there is a better alternative of the same picture.
And also, you say it should be, it is currently not obligatory. You or any other editor doesn't have the right to impose their personal sense of what should be what, on others. Mrt3366(Talk?) 08:42, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- The point is simply to highly recommend nominators choose high quality, well composed images. Nothing is summarily rejected. No one is imposing anything on you. These suggested criteria point to the level of quality editors are likely to look for. They are supposed to help nominators pick images likely to gain support among editors. I for one would be reluctant to support an image much smaller than 1024x768. You may still nominate one if you wish. Yes some of the terms are subjective ("good composition") and some arbitrary ("1024x768"). They are merely meant to guide nominators toward the level of quality expected—to make this process easier. Pfly (talk) 08:00, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Mrt3366, good quality should be obligatory, not optional" - Yes you may think so, but "good" is a subjective word. Besides, you're focusing on quality over subject, it seems. Nobody is saying we ought to pick pick "a poor quality image" when there is a better alternative of the same picture.
- Mrt3366, good quality should be obligatory, not optional. There are plenty of images out there to choose from and it doesn't make sense to pick a poor quality image so asking editors to submit only good quality ones makes perfect sense. Do also note that nowhere in the protocol does it say that images need to be of featured quality (though I do hope we end up with close to featured quality pictures at the least). --regentspark (comment) 14:05, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- "Mrt3366, I tried to make sense of your post above but am puzzled. Are you suggesting that we don't ask editors to submit good images?" - I am saying do not make it sound like a mandate. Best quality images are preferable, yes, but it is not obligatory.
- @RP Thanks. Upped to 20. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:17, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- Comment: Pardon me too for commenting before the protocol construction is over. The Protocol looks excellent. I would like to hear everyone's opinion about further categorization of the primary, secondary, tertiary sectors.
- Example:
Out of the 8 images for primary sector/Indices:
2 more for Agricultre (1 already existing)
1 for Forestry & fishing
1 for Mining (including Oil & Gas)
1 for Indices
2 for Miscellaneous
- Out of the 8 for Secondary/Tertiary:
1 for Banking/Finance (already existing)
1 for Software
1 for Transportation
1 for Textile
1 for Hospitality/Healthcare
1 for Retailing
1 for Heavy industries (including Energy)
1 for Miscellaneous
--Anbu121 (talk me) 13:46, 12 September 2012 (UTC)- @Anb121: The energy bullet belongs to the other template since the energy comes from a manufacturing process. Let me think more about your other points. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:09, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- @Anb121: Before I say anything, let me suggest that your subdivision is more appropriate for a Selection-of-Images Protocol. When that is in place, nominators will know what they are up against, and it will be up to them to factor it in their nominations. They might, for example, decide not to diversify, but rather to choose all their images in one area to increase their chances of getting an image selected.
- I looked at both the Economy section of the India page and the Economy of India page. Based on your post above, and the content of the pages, I would like to suggest the following revision for the Selection-of-Images Protocol:
- Of the 8 images for Primary sector/Indices template:
2 more for Agricultre (1 already existing)
1 for Forestry & fishing
1 for Mining (including Oil & Gas)
1 for index of Economic Growth
2 for indices of Poverty, Inequality and Nutrition
- Of the 8 images for Primary sector/Indices template:
- @Anb121: The energy bullet belongs to the other template since the energy comes from a manufacturing process. Let me think more about your other points. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:09, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
- Of the 8 for Secondary/Tertiary template:
1 for Banking/Finance (already existing)
1 for Software/Internet Technology
1 for Transportation/Infrastucture
1 for Textile
1 for Telecommunications
1 for Retailing
1 for Heavy industries (including Energy)
1 for International and Domestic Trade
- Of the 8 for Secondary/Tertiary template:
- Let me know what you think; let the others know what they think. We will definitely need a Selection protocol; otherwise, I see nothing but both confusion and more disputes ahead. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:27, 13 September 2012 (UTC)
- Looks fine. I too proposed it only for the selection protocol. One more clarification. Shouldn't the indices images be only graphs and charts? --Anbu121 (talk me) 08:05, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, not necessarily, in my view. I prefer memorable images that leave a lasting imprint. I prefer captions that mention a simple carry-home statistic with a link to a more detailed page, such as Economy of India or Poverty in India or Malnutrition in India, which is where the graph should be. Graphs are not clearly visible in thumbnail format. We shouldn't assume that a reader will click on them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:36, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Can I include these categorizations in the selection-protocol? Does anybody have objections to it?? --Anbu121 (talk me) 22:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me. Go ahead. It can then be discussed there. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:51, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Can I include these categorizations in the selection-protocol? Does anybody have objections to it?? --Anbu121 (talk me) 22:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, not necessarily, in my view. I prefer memorable images that leave a lasting imprint. I prefer captions that mention a simple carry-home statistic with a link to a more detailed page, such as Economy of India or Poverty in India or Malnutrition in India, which is where the graph should be. Graphs are not clearly visible in thumbnail format. We shouldn't assume that a reader will click on them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:36, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
- Looks fine. I too proposed it only for the selection protocol. One more clarification. Shouldn't the indices images be only graphs and charts? --Anbu121 (talk me) 08:05, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Nominations
Fowler&fowler's images
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FE1. A farmer in Rajasthan milks his cow. Milk is India's largest crop by economic value. Worldwide, as of 2011, India had the largest herds of buffalo and cattle, and was the largest producer of milk.
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FE2. Fishermen on the Chinese fishing nets of Cochin. Fisheries in India is a major industry in its coastal states, employing over 14 million people. The annual catch doubled between 1990 and 2010.
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FE4. Moving timber near Auroville, Tamil Nadu. Forestry in India is a significant rural industry and a major environmental issue. In 2002, forestry industry contributed 1.7 percent to India's GDP. In 2006, the contribution to GDP dropped to 0.9 percent, largely because of rapid growth of Indian economy in other sectors. Shown, here is .
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FE5. A young girl in Ahmadabad, helped by mother, prepares to carry the firewood back home. 32.7% of India's population lives on less than the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 per day (PPP) while 68.7% live on less than US$ 2 per day.
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FE6 Connaught Place, New Delhi is an upscale shopping area in India's capital. India's middle classes are projected to number around 580 million by 2030. Some 431 million Indians have left poverty since 1985.
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FE7. Schoolchildren in Chambal, Madhya Pradesh eating a mid-day meal. Half of the children in India are underweight, and 46% of children under the age of three suffer from malnutrition. The Mid-Day Meal Scheme attempts to lower these rates.
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FE8. A brass- and copper-ware shop in Jodhpur. India's retail market accounts for 15 percent of its GDP It is estimated at US$ 450 billion, one of the top five retail markets in the world in economic value.
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FE9. The Delhi Metro rapid transit system and the low-floor CNG buses. Infrastructure in India in the next five years is estimated to bring in $1 trillion in investment, half of it by India's private sector.
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FE10. A small hydro-electric dam on the Ganges Canal at Nagla Kabir, UP. The electricity sector in India has an installed capacity of 205.34 Gigawatt (GW), the world's fifth largest. Coal-fired plants account for 56% of India's electricity capacity, renewal hydropower for 19%.
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FE11. A feeder ship in Diamond Harbour, West Bengal. International trade accounted for 14% of India's GDP in 1988, 24% in 1998, and 53% in 2008.
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FE12. Textile fashion industry workers in Tiripur, South India. India's textile industry is its second largest employment generating sector, offering direct employment to 35 million. The sector contributes 14% to industrial production, 4% to the country's gross domestic product (GDP) and 17% to the country's export earnings.
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FE13. A cell phone tower in Leh, Ladakh, altitude 11,500 feet, surrounded by Buddhist prayer flags. India's telecommunication network is the third largest in the world in customer base. Enabled by hyper-competition in its market, it has one of the lowest tariffs.
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FE14. The Yahoo! offices in Bangalore. Revenues from India's internet technology and outsourcing industries are expected to cross $100 billion this financial year, a 14.8 percent increase from last year.
Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:53, 9 September 2012 (UTC) Last updated Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
CorrectKnowledge's images
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CE1. India has the 5th largest installed wind power capacity in the world. Shown here is a wind farm in Thar Desert, Rajasthan.
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CE2. Built across the Mahanadi river in Orissa, Hirakud Dam is the world's longest earth dam. The artificial lake created by the dam spreads over 743 Sq. Kilometers and irrigates 75,000 Sq. Kilometers of land.
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CE3. The Sabarmati Thermal Power Station situated on the banks of River Sabarmati, made famous by Mahatma Gandhi's Ashram by the same name is not only one of the oldest Thermal Plants in the country (1934), but also one of the most well run.
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CE4. Tehri Hydroelectric Power station's lake in Uttarakhand. Tehri is world's 7th tallest dam. With a capacity of 2.4 GW, it is India's largest hydroelectric power generation installation.
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CE5. Delhi Gurgaon Expressway in northern India is a part of India's effort to modernize its road network.
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CE6. Indian coal production is the 3rd highest in the world according to the 2008 Indian Ministry of Mines estimates. Shown above is a surface coal mine in Jharkhand.
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CE7. India accounts for 7% of world's cement production and is the world's second largest producer of cement. Shown above is cement plant in Lakheri, Rajasthan operated by ACC, India's largest cement producer. Indian cement industry comprises 140 large and 365 mini cement plants.
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CE8. India's passenger car and commercial vehicle manufacturing industry is the sixth largest in the world, with an annual production of more than 3.9 million units in 2011. Shown here is Tata Motors automobile plant in Pune, Maharashtra.
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CE9. India is world's 4th largest producer of steel. Shown here is the IISCO Steel plant in Burnpur, West Bengal. Founded in 1918, it is the second oldest steel plant in India.
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CE10. International Cruise Terminal in Mumbai, India. The first of the present-day docks of the Mumbai Port were built in the 1870s.
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CE11. Formed out of dairy cooperative movement in Gujarat, Amul is the world's biggest vegetarian cheese brand and India's biggest food brand. Shown above are high capacity milk silos in Amul's milk processing plant at Anand, Gujarat.
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CE12. Vegetable plantations in Nilgiri mountains of Tamil Nadu. Graduated terraced steps are commonly used to decrease erosion and surface runoff in sloping terrains of Nilgiris.
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CE13. As seen in the picture, farms in India are fragmented into small holdings of less than 2 hectares each. This contibutes to low agricultural productivity in India.
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CE14. India has some of the world's best agricultural yields in its tea plantations. Shown above a tea estate in Kerala, a southern state of India.CE14. India has some of the world's best agricultural yields in its tea plantations. Shown above a tea estate in Kerala, a southern state of India.
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CE15. The 600 meter long Mysore aqueduct carries water from the Harangi Reservoir, over the Kaveri river, to rural areas of Mysore, Karnataka. Aqueducts were first used for irrigation in Karnataka during the Vijayanagara Empire (c. 1336–1646).
I'll improve captions later. The images can also be cropped for clarity. Correct Knowledge«৳alk» 18:30, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
Mrt3366's images
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ME1. Mumbai is the Financial and Commercial capital of India, and the headquarters of many of India's premier financial institutions are located in the city.
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ME2. India is world's 4th largest producer of steel. IISCO Steel PlantME2. India is world's 4th largest producer of steel. IISCO Steel Plant
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ME3. Shown here is India's the longest six-laned controlled-access expressway stretch,Yamuna Expressway. Development of multi-lane expressways in northern India is a part of India's effort to modernize its road network.ME3. Shown here is India's the longest six-laned controlled-access expressway stretch,Yamuna Expressway. Development of multi-lane expressways in northern India is a part of India's effort to modernize its road network.
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ME4. Jawaharlal Nehru Trust Port in Navi Mumbai, India. One of the biggest ports in India. The port handles cargo traffic mostly originating from or destined for Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, Karnataka, as well as most of North India.
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ME5. Terminal 3 of Delhi's Indira Gandhi International Airport, the busiest airport in India, is world's 8th largest passenger terminal. Along with Mumbai's Chhatrapati Shivaji International Airport, it handles more than half the air traffic in South Asia.
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ME6. Mysore India Infosys. Infosys ranked among the most innovative companies in a Forbes survey, leading technology companies in a report by The Boston Consulting Group and top ten green companies in Newsweek's Green Rankings.
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ME7. The Government of India predicts that over the next five years $1 trillion will be spent on infrastructure, half of it by India's private sector. Infrastructure investment in Delhi during the last decade has underwritten the city's metro rapid transit system, the low-floor Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses (red, green and orange), and wider roads. Shown here is Gurgaon Expressway.
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ME8. India highway gurgaon
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ME9. Water-logged fields close to Dabolim Aiport, Goa India. The highway can be seen to the left.
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ME10. The Indian Railways is one of the world's largest railway networks comprising 115,000 km (71,000 mi) of track. Indian Railways is the world's fourth largest commercial or utility employer. It is India's largest employer. Shown here is one of the largest railway stations in India, that is Howrah Station in West Bengal.
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ME11. India is the fifth largest producer of wind powered electricity. Shown here is a view of the windmills on the Seshachalam Hills.
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ME12. India is the fifth largest producer of wind powered electricity. Shown here are wind turbines in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan
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ME13. Coal-fired power plants in India are major source of Indian electricity. Ramagundam Super Thermal Power Station, India
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ME14. Shown here are the headquarters Tata Communications Ltd. that operates India's largest data center in Pune. VSNL a government-owned internet service provider was acquired by the Tata group and renamed Tata Communications Ltd.
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MC15. Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) is India’s prime shipyard. It manufactures warships and submarines for the Indian Navy, as well as offshore platforms and associated support vessels for offshore oil drilling. Show here is Kolkata Class destroyer being built in the Assembly Shop at Mazagon Dock Limited, Mumbai.
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MC16. Oil and Natural Gas Corporation Limited produces around 77% of India's crude oil (equivalent to around 30% of the country's total demand) and around 81% of its natural gas. Shown here is an ONGC platform at Bombay High in the Arabian Sea.
Anbu121's images
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AE1.Rice Planting
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AE2. Salt field
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AE3.Fishing
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AE4.India's GDP has increased more than ten-fold after the economic reforms in 1991
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AE5. Tidel Park, the then largest IT park in Asia when it was opened in 2000.[1]
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AE6. Power Loom used inside a house in a village near Salem, Tamil Nadu. Power loom accounts for more than 60% of textile production in India
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AE7. A vegetable retailer in Tamil Nadu. More than 95% of retail industry in India is unorganized.[2]
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AE8.Kathipara interchange in Chennai. Road traffic in India increases at 10% per annum
--Will add detailed captions soon. Anbu121 (talk me) 17:16, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Discussion on process
Graphists at WP:GL/P can help with cropping, contrast, and other image issues, if needed—CK mentioned cropping above. Saravask 21:56, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
- If it is going to be rotating 8, can we have slots for individual industries? (For example, out of the 8 images for traditional economy: 2 for Agriculture, 1 for textile, 1 for forestry & fishing, 4 for others. Out of 8 images for modern economy, 1 for transportation, 1 for Energy, 1 for Manufacturing, 1 for Software, 4 for others) This is just an example, the allocation of slots can be decided on consensus or based on some GDP statistics. --Anbu121 (talk me) 18:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- RegentsPark: I don't know if this is the place for this post, but I was thinking that there could be 8 nominations each for two rotation templates, one to replace the stock exchange picture, the other the farmer plowing picture; one for the modern sector, the other for the traditional. Last year, as you will recall, we voted for three templates in Culture and one in Demographics. So two is really not that much. If we are making the effort, we might as well do it right. Having looked at a thousand plus pictures, I feel that eight alone might not be enough for India's economy. If this is the wrong place for this post, please move it to the right one. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:56, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- That sounds like a good idea. We currently have two images in the economy section, so two rotations would fit in perfectly. --regentspark (comment) 12:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- PS I have some thoughts on a protocol for all this. Where may I make that post? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:56, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- I guess this is the right place - you designed the system :) --regentspark (comment) 12:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- RegentsPark: I don't know if this is the place for this post, but I was thinking that there could be 8 nominations each for two rotation templates, one to replace the stock exchange picture, the other the farmer plowing picture; one for the modern sector, the other for the traditional. Last year, as you will recall, we voted for three templates in Culture and one in Demographics. So two is really not that much. If we are making the effort, we might as well do it right. Having looked at a thousand plus pictures, I feel that eight alone might not be enough for India's economy. If this is the wrong place for this post, please move it to the right one. Thanks. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:56, 11 September 2012 (UTC)
- I just noticed that Delhi is being given undue importance, especially in Transpor. Can we use pics of the A'bad BRTS, Hyderabad ORR, Kolkata Metro instead? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 12:39, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
General discussion
- [These comments were prior to any extensive changes that took place] I like the images of plants and factories in the above proposals. My point (I won't be making many) is if you're showing an Image of a mega-city select a part where it actually represents the core of the urbanization. Yes, if need be, we might balance that image with other image(s) but please do not deliberately select the worst-looking portion of a city and subtly push the POV that see, this is what the true face of Indian urbanization is. That is exactly the gross bias I (and others) want to rid this article of.
- I think it's better and far more logical, especially in a summary style article like India, if the images being proposed for inclusion in the economy section, clearly reflect the cause of Economic growth (as opposed to undue and excessive focus on poverty-stricken, economically most lagging portion of the population). Images should present aspects of growth in Innovation, infrastructure and technology. Current economy section doesn't illustrate that part at all. I will try and add more later.
- In short choose images that actually support the progress and changing structure of Indian economy and also society in general and then balance it with other images if you will. Mrt3366(Talk?) 10:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- This is the problem I see with some of the images proposed above, (intentional or not) misplacement of images and undue weight to contextually insignificant things. I think if you want to assert that "There are some 1.5 million potters in rural India, most of whom have no landed property" — which may or may not be best suited for economy section of a summary style article — what is the need for highlighting it with an image of a potter and his wife in Madhya Pradesh? Won't a link to the article about pottery suffice?
Again if you wish to focus on Indian railways why not focus on one of the largest railway termini in India? There is far more than enough focus on the sheer rurality of India and the half-nakedness of the poor population. Why is this needless predilection? Why this maniacal focus on the gloomy-looking portions of the country/populous when there are numerous better alternatives available about the same subject/category? India is getting urbanized and westernised, this article must depict this fact along with every thing else.
- "India is the world's second-largest producer of silk" as well as "the largest consumer" — but the one shown in the picture is half-naked....why???
"The Indian silk industry employs some 6 million workers" - seems fine?
"some of whom are child labourers" - there you go, see? Why not simply state them and somehow refrain from shoehorning POVs in Image captions??
I think this is getting a bit too much. Mrt3366(Talk?) 11:55, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Comment on captions: For balance and neutrality, I urge some care. Include both sides - the problems and the achievements. If image shows an informal shop/home brewing of something, the caption would be better if it includes a sentence on formal producers/industrial production. If image shows a formal producers/industrial production of something, the caption would be better if it includes a sentence on informal enterprises/home brewing if any. A good caption would not leave an impression of zero change and zero progress, or an impression of 100% change and 100% progress. And finally, the key claims in the caption would be better if they are verifiable and cited. ApostleVonColorado (talk) 19:50, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Comments on specific images
Can we make comments yet, or should we hold off? I have a few thoughts on some of the images (mostly things like exposure, focus, color, and so on). Pfly (talk) 08:13, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
- Why is that for India, ALL transport images except Railways is of Delhi? Why not Pune? Or Chennai, Or Ahmedabad? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 12:34, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
@Pfly, Sorry I didn't see your post. Yes, please make comments. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:43, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
- @Rsrikanth05, I have 14 images. Of these one is of Delhi. It just happens to be the transport image. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:44, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Pfly's remarks
I was planning to comment on these nominated photos but am only just now getting around to it. I see that there has been little discussion in this section for a while and the section will be archived soon. Are people still interesting in working through it? I thought some of the previous discussions for photo rotations had fizzled—although looking at the article right now, maybe they worked out after all? Anyway, before commenting I thought I would go back and look at some of these previous discussions. In case anyone doesn't already know and is interested, they appear to be in Archive 35, which has the main part of the Demographics section discussion (the first of these discussions, I think), and Archive 36, which has the final part of the Demographics discussion and discussions for the Sports and Art sections. In these previous discussions people often commented on the nominated photos before the voting started, pointing out things they liked or didn't like—even listing the ones they liked. I think this helped the overall process along. That hasn't really happened this time, so far. There's been some talk about the photos in general and the process, but not really on specific photos. Maybe there should be. Anyway, here's some comments from me. As I said during the Demographics discussion, I don't know nearly as much about India as most of you all and feel largely unqualified to comment on the content of the photos—whether they accurately portray India, or are too weighed toward some POV, like rural vs. urban, or, in the Demographics case, whether the many peoples of India were being fairly represented. Stuff like that I can't really comment on. But I can offer an "outsider's" view, for what that is worth. Finally, I can't comment on all the photos. And I don't mean to offend anyone with words like dull or boring. I may be overly critical and terse, but am just stating my reaction, nothing personal.
- FE1
The photo itself doesn't excite me, but those combines are fascinating.Changed, looks fine (no time right now for more, will try to say more later!) - FE2
A decent photo but I don't know...you've seen one picture of people harvesting rice you've seen them all?Changed, looks fine. - FE3
Nice colors.Changed, looks fine. - FE5
Mostly out of focus.Changed, looks fine. - FE6
If not for the caption I would have no idea what this is a picture of. Also it has a kind of semi-random "snapshot" look.Changed, looks fine. - FE8
Chaotic looking, though I suppose that's part of the point. Other than the people looking Indian, this could be anywhere in the world, which might also be part of the point. Still, as a photo it feel rather generic and boring.Changed, looks fine. - FE9 This was was discussed a little before in relation to what part of a city to show. That issue aside, I like this one. A great jumble of infrastructure, transportation, people and market.
- FE10
Well I'm a sucker for dams and hydropower, so this perks my interest. That road (if it is a road) zig-zagging up the dam face is interesting and strange, and the little building at the bottom has a slightly Indian look, somehow. On the other hand the colors and composition are less than wonderful. The mountain on the far side of the dam looks, photographically speaking, rather dull and unflatteringly lit.Changed, looks fine. - FE11
Could be the Port of Seattle! Big container ports probably all look about the same. But they do look kind of cool. The grey sky is unfortunate, and overall the picture seems a bit dull, except the front of the ship's superstructure, which looks a bit over exposed.Changed, looks fine. - FE12 Very nice colors and perspective. Kind of strange, but I like it.
- FE13
As with FE8, seems generic and boring.Changed, looks fine. - CE1 Of the three nominations showing wind farms, this one is the best, but it still isn't a great photo. I'd suggest cropping some of the sky and perhaps the two edge turbines, but at 750x500 pixels it's already low resolution.
- CE2 Yay another dam! But as a photo it looks pretty poor in thumbnail size. The larger size looks much better and I like it, except for the over-exposed blown color of the water. The sky too.
- CE3 Too dark.
- CE4 First glance at the caption made me expect to see a dam, but it's just the reservoir. Actually the subject of the photo seems to be the bridge. I think if the caption is going to say things like "world's 7th tallest dam" the picture needs to show the dam. Nice that the sky isn't grey and the colors aren't dull, but actually the colors seem over-saturated.
- CE5 There's four nominated photos showing highways, and I don't like any of them! This one isn't awful, but it's pretty dull—in both color and composition.
- CE6 Dull and hazy. Hard to understand at thumbnail size.
- CE7 Dark, hazy, and blurry.
- CE8 Could be okay, if it didn't look like it was taken out the window of a moving car. Traffic light ruins the composition.
- CE9 I didn't like the thumbnail, but opening it up larger made it much better. The dirty cloud rising from the plant, along with the rusty stuff in the foreground and the rather wild vegetation give it a bit of a post-apocolyptic feel. On the other hand, the sky is blown.
- CE10 Dull. I opened it up before reading the caption and find I can't tell what it's a picture of, even with the filename "International Cruise Terminal, Mumbai.JPG". Oh, a port terminal? Can't even see the water!
- CE11 Foreground overly in shadow and some blown highlights.
- CE12 I never get tired of pictures of terraced hills. I like it. Might be a bit over-photoshopped (saturation and sharpening, I would guess). Resolution a bit low. Still, I like it more than most so far.
- CE13 The picture is okay. Not great but better than some. The caption is a bit odd. "As seen in the picture" shouldn't be needed. Also, the caption says I can see in the picture that the farms are small holdings less than 2 hectares. I can't see this in the picture. I see farmland, but I can't really see "holdings". For all I can tell this could be mostly one large farm.
- CE14 Curiously weird looking photo. I like it in a kind of abstract art way. I'm not really sure what I'm looking at though. A tea estate, the caption tells me. Okay, if you say so.
- CE15 Poor composition with no obvious subject. The aqueduct is in the background.
- ME1 That is a distinctive bridge, but this isn't the best view of it. Mumbai's skyline is hazed out. The camera was tilted, the horizon isn't straight (tilted horizons jump out at me for some reason).
- ME2 Looks promising as a thumbnail, but opening it up reveals what looks like awful moire patterns from bad scanning.
- ME3 I love the angle and the structure, but I think 672x480 pixels is too small, sadly.
- ME4 Again I like the thumbnail, but opening it up, it's only 640x480 pixels, and looks blurry at full size.
- ME5 This one is kind of cool. It's not great, but not too bad either. Those hand sculptures are neat.
- ME6 Interesting buildings, decent colors, composition, etc. And the sky actually has some definition! Even so, there's something meh about the picture, but it's better than many others here.
- ME8 An old photo? Or is it? Is the subject supposed to be that toll booth in the distance? I'm confused.
- ME9 Not bad, as a picture. Unclear what it has to do with a nearby airport or why the road needs to be pointed out.
- ME11 640x480 pixels, and not a good photo anyway.
- ME12 Great resolution, but sooo grey. Looks like a dust storm or something. Impossible to see the details of the wind turbines, despite the high resolution.
- ME13 Looks good to me. Might be improved by cropping a bit, especially the foreground.
- ME14 Eh, not awful, but less than wonderful. Blown highlights. Boring.
- MC15 Could be a very interesting photo if not for the poor lighting on the main subject.
- MC16 Again, could be good but for the over-exposure issues, especially on the right side. Cropping out the third platform might help, but it would make for a less interesting picture. Plus there are exposure issues on the middle platform. Too bad, this could be such a great photo.
- AE1 This would be a pretty cool picture, if not for the blown highlights.
- AE4 Do we want charts in an image rotation? Also, as a thumbnail this is unreadable.
- AE5 As far as picturing of big glass buildings go, this is fine, even nice. Unclear why it is of note though.
- AE6 Now that is interesting. I particularly like the hanging punched cards. Fascinating. I wish the man's face wasn't so much in shadow.
- AE7 Not bad.
- AE8 Decent subject. But low resolution (927x617), exposure and color issues.
Phew. I'm not clear on how many are to be picked (2 sets of 8?) and don't quite follow the primary vs. secondary and tertiary thing. But having gone through what we have so far, there are 8 I like or at least find good enough. Good: FE9, FE12, CE12, ME13 (suggest crop), AE6. Acceptable: CE9, ME5, ME6. Oh, and the ones I passed over and didn't comment on are probably more or less acceptable too. Pfly (talk) 06:56, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- PS, if there is still interest in getting this photo selection process completed, should we (can we?) bump this section to the bottom of the talk page, so it stays fresh and doesn't get archived? I'm not sure if that kind of thing is condoned or not. Pfly (talk) 09:58, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks,Pfly! Great comments, but you left out my pictures 4, 7, and 14. Yes, we should move this down to the last section. How should that be done? Cut and paste? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:17, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- PS Since I take your remarks seriously, I will be changing a few of my images. I hope this will not cause too much confusion. I will report here (later today) which ones have been changed. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks,Pfly! Great comments, but you left out my pictures 4, 7, and 14. Yes, we should move this down to the last section. How should that be done? Cut and paste? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:17, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I mostly expect to follow Pfly's "!voter guide". As he noted, all nominators have advanced at least one "wow!"-worthy image each. It can only benefit them to see how they can top themselves by replacing the sketchier ones. There is much stunning, high-res stuff on the same subjects/topics floating out there unnoticed in the Flickr/Commons ether. If enough high-enc pics show up here, then maybe the requirement to grandfather the current images could be axed—e.g., the WB farmer pic has a blown sky. Or maybe we should just do that anyway, since someone can just nom those two here. Saravask 16:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I've changed four or five. I'm now flat out of time and will be tied up for the next few days. Thanks for the inputs and look forward to more. So, if we don't hear from the other nominators, the judges (which is everyone) could perhaps go ahead and vote. Remember we have to pick 14 images, 7 for the primary sector and economic indexes; and seven for the secondary and tertiary sector.I have thus far changed 9 of my 14 pics. A reminder, voting will begin on Saturday September 29, per RegentsPark's ground rules Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:31, 20 September 2012 (UTC) Updated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:45, 21 September 2012 (UTC)- I struck out my comments on changed pictures. The new ones look fine, although I haven't had time to check them out very closely. And yea, I did skip a few photos here and there. It just means I couldn't think of anything to say offhand. I didn't spend too long with each one or the whole process would have taken too much time. Pfly (talk) 19:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Also, I wanted to point out, when I said "dull" about a photo, I meant color and contrast, not content. If the content was dull I said "boring". Just to be clear. Pfly (talk) 19:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Selection of images for the Economy section rotations
Reminder: As User:RegentsPark has stated in the nominations section, voting for selecting the images will begin at 00:00 29 September 2012 (UTC). He will have more to say below. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:12, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Voting and Selection Protocol
- All and any editors are welcome to vote for the selection of images.
- After the nomination period ends all the images will be classified into the following categories: Agriculture, Forestry & fishing, Mining(including Oil & Gas), Index of Economic Growth, Indices of Poverty, Inequality and Nutrition, Software/Internet Technology, Transportation/Infrastucture, Textile, Telecommunications, Retailing, Heavy industries (including Energy), International and Domestic Trade.
- A voter is entitled to vote for a maximum of 14 images: 2 votes for Agriculture, 2 votes for Poverty-Inequality-Nutrition, and 1 vote for each of the remaining 10 categories.
- The image with highest number of votes in each category will be selected for the template. (Two highest scoring images from Agriculture category; two highest scoring from Poverty-Inequality-Nutrition and the top scoring image of each of the remaining category.)
Have I missed anything? --Anbu121 (talk me) 20:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Discussion on the Protocol
Categorization of Images
Agriculture:
Forestry & fishing:
Mining(including Oil & Gas):
Index of Economic Growth:
Indices of Poverty, Inequality and Nutrition:
Software/Internet Technology:
Transportation/Infrastucture:
Textile:
Telecommunications:
Retailing:
Heavy industries (including Energy):
International and Domestic Trade:
India's Dalits better off than American blacks
The second sentence in the society section currently reads: The Indian constitution declared discrimination on the basis of caste illegal in 1950 and India has since enacted other anti-discriminatory laws and social welfare initiatives,[284] albeit numerous reports suggest that many Dalits ("ex–Untouchables") and other low castes in rural areas continue to live in segregation and face persecution and discrimination.[285][286]
Can we change this to include the fact that significant progress in caste matters has been made (though there are still some problems). Several sources support that significant progress has been made in eliminating caste inequalities:
- "No less eminent a sociologist as M. N. Srinivas has even suggested that we are 'living in a revolution'. Even if we do not accept such optimism about the recent changes (there are fields of stationary as well as transformation), the last fifty years have certainly been a time of significant change in India's social structure. There is nothing in the record of India's last half century that would vindicate the thesis of the futility of changing the hold of antecedent economic and social inequalities in India."
Dreze, Jean; Sen (2002), India: Development and Participation, Oxford University Press, USA, p. 356, ISBN 9780199257485 {{citation}}
: Text "first2Amartya" ignored (help)
- A recent analysis of government survey data by economists at the University of British Columbia found that the wage gap between other castes and Dalits has decreased to 21 percent, down from 36 percent in 1983, less than the gap between white male and black male workers in the United States. The education gap has been halved.
Polgreen, Lydia (2011), Scaling Caste Walls With Capitalism’s Ladders in India, The New York Times
- Another survey conducted by Indian researchers along with professors from the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard showed that the social status of Dalits has risen as well — they are more likely to be invited to non-Dalit weddings, to eat the same foods and wear the same clothes as upper-caste people, and use grooming products like shampoo and bottled hair oil.
Biswas, Soutik (2010), Is the free market improving lives of India's Dalits?, BBC
- “Caste has no impact on life today,” Mr. Ganesan said in an interview at one of Chennai’s exclusive social clubs, the kind of place where a generation ago someone of his caste would not have been welcome. “It is no longer a barrier.”
- A crucial factor is the collapse of the caste system over the last half century, a factor that undergirds many of the other reasons that the south has prospered — more stable governments, better infrastructure and a geographic position that gives it closer connections to the global economy.
Polgreen (2010), Business Class Rises in Ashes of Caste System, The New York Times {{citation}}
: Text "Lydia" ignored (help)
Experienced editors are invited to formulate a sentence to reflect this progress and add it near the 2nd sentence (if agreeable). Hoshigaki (talk) 07:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the last archive, before you dump more irrelevant stuff on this page. No one is talking about economic progress; it is the society section, remember? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:27, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- PS However, since the sentence was inserted before full consensus was achieved, I will defer to RegentsPark on this. I think AVC has a version too. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:41, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, the sources do say Dalits are invited to non-Dalit weddings, they eat the same foods, wear the same clothes as upper caste. If you cannot agree, that is not a problem but we do have the sources. Hoshigaki (talk) 10:31, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- And, there are many secondary sources that say, little progress has been made. Do you have scholarly tertiary sources that say, social progress has been achieved. As far as I am aware, the number of arranged Brahmin-Dalit weddings in rural India (annually) can be counted on the fingers of ET's one hand. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- What makes you think that only Brahmin-Dalit wedding would indicate social progress ?--sarvajna (talk) 10:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't say "only," but it is an indicator. Like I said, find the tertiary sources that talk about significant social progress, especially in relation to segregation in rural India.
The last time I went to a Dalit wedding, which was not too long ago, I found their settlement, about 40 miles from Delhi, not far from a busy highway, to be entirely a Dalit enclave. Many people had motorcycles, and the houses were all made of brick, but there were no other castes. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:58, 21 September 2012 (UTC)PS This is slightly off-topic. I was struck by their enormous enterprise. They were working in far off places; in many professions, sometimes riding 20 miles on their motorcycles to work. But they all said that they were extremely touched, that I, an outsider, turned up. As far as I was aware, I was the only non-Dalit guest. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:03, 21 September 2012 (UTC)- (edit conflict) I really don't know what should I make of your comment to be honest I don't have enough energy to discuss things at length . You take some isolated case and call it a gospel truth, I will tell you one of my experience, I once went to a brahmin wedding in Malkhed about 700 Kms from Bangalore and 40 Kms away from the nearest town of Gulbarga, it was a bramin only wedding. Not many were not invited because the hosts could not afford to feed many people. The very next day I attended a Dalit wedding in Gulbarga, the wedding was in a grand function hall and the Cheif Minister of Karnataka was on the guest list (yes he did attend the wedding). There are dark areas but you just cannot say that there is no progress. --sarvajna (talk) 11:14, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I didn't say "only," but it is an indicator. Like I said, find the tertiary sources that talk about significant social progress, especially in relation to segregation in rural India.
- What makes you think that only Brahmin-Dalit wedding would indicate social progress ?--sarvajna (talk) 10:48, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- And, there are many secondary sources that say, little progress has been made. Do you have scholarly tertiary sources that say, social progress has been achieved. As far as I am aware, the number of arranged Brahmin-Dalit weddings in rural India (annually) can be counted on the fingers of ET's one hand. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:39, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Please read the last archive, before you dump more irrelevant stuff on this page. No one is talking about economic progress; it is the society section, remember? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:27, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
OK, I've scratched my comments. I wasn't citing them (and I did say, "off-topic,"), but ultimately that is why we have WP guidelines. If you have scholarly tertiary sources that talk about significant social progress, please present them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:23, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- Well, Fowler&fowler's comments above do make us think - every time we see the wife of Barack Obama on TV, people don't say "Black man marrying black woman, so there must be no progress in race relations in the USA." Of course, there has been plenty of progress in America since the 1960s legislation about equal employment for blacks (similar to the series of legislation India enacted in 1940s and 1950s). It's only that the India has done better than America in this regard. About the all-Dalit village that Fowler cites - just like Japanese-Americans or Chinese-American or Indian-Americans, Dalits in India are not forced by law to live in isolated regions or "ghettos" but just like the various immigrant American communities, they prefer to stick together out of choice. Anyway let us wait for comments from others to see if the addition I have proposed is welcome. Clearly there has been plenty of progress and I really hope we can include this information and improve the article by keeping it up-to-date. Hoshigaki (talk) 12:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- I think we've gone through this discussion and the current text accepted through consensus. Also, if I may point out the obvious, nowhere in the article does it state that India's Dalits are worse off (or better off) than specific social groups in other countries so I fail to see the point of this section title.--regentspark (comment) 17:00, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Further disruption
Hoshigaki, please don't be disruptive and edit war on this page. The citation is obviously not World Bank, but the Rawat book. If you had looked at the archives, you would have known. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:53, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Fact sheet merger proposal
Although Fact sheet on India was kept at AfD as factual, it's clearly a WP:CFORK of this article. It's also not just a list of statistics, but provides commentary disguised in table form. For example its quality of life section tells us that the following factors affect it: Population (2nd of 217), Population growth rate (102nd of 212), Ethnic diversity index within the country (17th of 160), Cultural diversity index within the country (5th of 160), Labour force (2nd), Human Development Index --given dead last-- (134th of 187). I'd really like to see a wp:secondary source which discusses the quality of life in India in these terms, and particularly with that emphasis on the various indices. It seems to me a WP:SYNT attempt trying to bury the actual indices that are normally discussed; see Quality of life. Not a trace of GDP per capita and so forth. I think this "fact sheet" is mostly a subtle form of POV pushing. Whatever useful material is in there should be merged here (not necessarily all of it), and then it should be turned into a redirect. Tijfo098 (talk) 04:24, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Mentioning insurgency in modern history
How about adding " insurgencies in Punjab and Northeast India" to the list of problems in the sentence starting with "Yet, India has also been weighed down by seemingly ..."? This can be added after the list-item " separatism in Jammu and Kashmir".--Dwaipayan (talk) 04:52, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
- ^ "Ford's Rs. 200-cr. IT hub in Chennai". The Hindu. 2 November 2000. Retrieved 20 September 2012.
- ^ "Retailing". Invest India. Federation of Indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry. Retrieved 15 September 2012.