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::::::::::I have no time to provid diffs now. But let any editor have a look at page history. At some point Ermernich started to freely removing stuff from the article, and apparently pov pushing because they left out from a list the only two east asian haplogroups. They included very long quotes criticizing the Xiongnu Hun relation, removed or shortened sources supporting it. They even altered the chronological order of sources, perhaps to transmit/ enhance the impression Xiongnu Hun relation is weak. For example, there is a 2020 source firmly establishing Xiongnu Hun connection, and a 2019 '''interdisciplinary study''' rejecting it. They placed the latter '''after''' the 2020 study, which succeeds it in time, that is, is more new (I might be wrong with the dates of the studies, but thats the kernel of what they did). [[User:Fries Montana|Fries Montana]] ([[User talk:Fries Montana|talk]]) 11:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
::::::::::I have no time to provid diffs now. But let any editor have a look at page history. At some point Ermernich started to freely removing stuff from the article, and apparently pov pushing because they left out from a list the only two east asian haplogroups. They included very long quotes criticizing the Xiongnu Hun relation, removed or shortened sources supporting it. They even altered the chronological order of sources, perhaps to transmit/ enhance the impression Xiongnu Hun relation is weak. For example, there is a 2020 source firmly establishing Xiongnu Hun connection, and a 2019 '''interdisciplinary study''' rejecting it. They placed the latter '''after''' the 2020 study, which succeeds it in time, that is, is more new (I might be wrong with the dates of the studies, but thats the kernel of what they did). [[User:Fries Montana|Fries Montana]] ([[User talk:Fries Montana|talk]]) 11:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::There is no such 2020 study that “definitively proves the connection “. That is a [[WP:primary]] source. The interdisciplinary study is a [[wp:secondary]] source that satisfies Wikipedia’s requirements for academic consensus ([[WP:RS/AC]]). I suggest you review our sourcing policies before you make accusations of POV pushing.—[[User:Ermenrich|Ermenrich]] ([[User talk:Ermenrich|talk]]) 12:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
:::::::::::There is no such 2020 study that “definitively proves the connection “. That is a [[WP:primary]] source. The interdisciplinary study is a [[wp:secondary]] source that satisfies Wikipedia’s requirements for academic consensus ([[WP:RS/AC]]). I suggest you review our sourcing policies before you make accusations of POV pushing.—[[User:Ermenrich|Ermenrich]] ([[User talk:Ermenrich|talk]]) 12:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::I am tired of your wiki lawyering just to command what ''you'' want. I didn't have much time earlier to provide diffs and less time now that I have to argue against you at ANI. But be aware that I am 100% sure of ehat I've seen in the editor history of this article. Judging from your edits, you have clearly attempted to push your POV in the article. And now, to get what you want you went as far as reverting four times within 24 hours. As for the specific matter here: I explained several times now that you need consensus. It's two against one for the 4 images exluding Odoacer. Notice again how calm I am, how I let 1 day pass before reverting, and how quick you are to try and have it your way. Wait. Seek consensus. Stop repeating meaningless things. [[User:Fries Montana|Fries Montana]] ([[User talk:Fries Montana|talk]]) 12:35, 20 June 2023 (UTC) |
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Predecessors and Sucessors
The huns formed a state, proto-state under Bleda and Attila. Thats the consensus (even if it was a "robbing state")
So, it should have their predecessors and sucessors¡
For predecessors:
-Since the xiong-Nu connection debate will rage for some time, no mention should be done.
-The Alans, conquered by huns
-The Greuthungi, conquered by huns
-The Thervingi, conquered in part by huns
-Roman Pannonia province: base under Attila
-Perhaps lombards, ruggi,sarmatian, and other conquered tribes
Successors:
-After Nedao:
-The kingdom of the Rugii
-The kingdom of the Gepids
-The kingdom of the Ostrogoths
-A suebian kingdom in the danube.
Bolghars, kutrigurs, utrigurs remain speculative, so no for the moment.
Comments?
Genetics - Edit request
The genetic section (for what ever reason) does only mention haplogroup R, but at least two papers also found significant amounts of haplogroup Q. This should be corrected and accurately presented...
:"Considering all published post-Xiongnu Hun era genomes (Hun period nomad, Hun-Sarmatian, Tian Shan Hun,20 and Xianbei-Hun Berel21), we counted 10/23 R1a-Z93 and 9/23 Q Hgs,... These Y-Hgs were most likely inherited from Xiongnus, as these Hgs were frequent among them22,32 but were rare in Europe before the Hun period."
Cited by [https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.cub.2022.04.093] 94.131.108.114 (talk) 00:34, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
- Not done:: Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. –Austronesier (talk) 10:23, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
Huns - old Hungarians, genetic connection
Hi @Ermenrich,
I see you removed this sourced content https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Huns&diff=prev&oldid=1158054489
Perhaps it would be good in the legacy chapter? I see the legacy section mention these things. Because these things are facts, and provided many reliable academic sources.
It is fact that in foreign and all Hungarian medieval literature, and in the literature until the 19th century the Hun-Hungarian countinutiy was the mainstream. (as this info is already in the lead, just I extended it) It also fact the Hun-Hungarian connection was denied in the 20th century due to the Finno-Ugric language theory. (as this info is already in the lead) And it is fact that there are nowadays many modern international genetic tests in the subject. Of course this is quite fresh, so probably need time when the genetic results will adapt into historian works.
For example you can see the genetic matches with a Hungarian king (1077–1095). (note, other genetic tests of the Huns revealed that the Asian Scythians played a key role in their formation)
I think these things are related to the content. What do you think which section would be appropriate for this content?
OrionNimrod (talk) 18:10, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
- The section on the legacy of the Huns already gives the mainstream scholarly opinion on the Hun-Hungarian connection. The genetic sources are all WP:PRIMARY and do not overturn that consensus. What they show is that the Hungarians have some connection with dwellers of the Eurasian steppes - something not really in dispute, but which does not mean that the Hungarians are descendants of the Huns. Often these papers include some rather far-fetched or poorly informed theorizing, vaguely label samples as "Huns" who are not from Europe, etc. - it's clear that the authors, for whatever reason, want the Hungarians to be associated with the Huns, and they often include barbs against the countervailing, consensus view.
- I also object to the specific wording of your addition. It includes grammatical errors (
Foundation of the Hungarian state is connected
) and an un-encyclopedic tone, e.g. in this sentence:The Árpád dynasty claimed to be a direct descendant of the great Hun leader Attila.
--Ermenrich (talk) 11:41, 2 June 2023 (UTC)- Hi @Ermenrich, thanks for your answer! Sorry I am not perfect in English, but you can repharse the content.
- Those genetic studies analized the Hungarian conquerors not the modern Hungarians. (But many modern Hungarian made nowadays genetic test, I can see 3 main components: ancient local Carpathian basin + Scythian folks (Scythians, Sarmatians, Hungarian conquerors, Avars, Sakas, Hun...) + Germanic and Slavic. My family did also, and it revaled genetic sample matches from the whole Eurasian steppe: Scythian, Sarmatian, Hungarian conquerors, Avar, Saka, local Hun-Sarmatian from Carpathian Basin and even Hun sample matches from Mongolia as well. But this is personal research I do not intend to put in the article.)
- And many other genetic test proved the Scythians played a key role in the fromation of the Huns, examples:[1][2][1]
- The genetic studies showed that the Hungarian conquerors were a very diverse groups (many allied tribes, various genetic), it showed also that the Huns were also not only Huns, it was always more tribes. The acadmic studies what I sourced does not say that "the Hungarians descendants of the Huns", the researcher scholars said:
- Thanks to the science of archaeogenetics, we can obtain new genome information about the former populations, and gain a more accurate picture of our ancestors' origins, with the help of the most modern cellular analyses and a supercomputer," said Tibor Török, Senior Research Fellow at the Research Centre for Archaeogenetics of our Institute. The Asian Hun heritage of the "conquerors" clearly proves that around 300 AD there was a significant Hun-Hungarian mixing, and the remaining Huns were integrated into the conquering Hungarians.
- International (Non Hungarian) DNA study:[1][2]
- East Eurasian R1a subclades R1a1a1b2a-Z94 and R1a1a1b2a2-Z2124 were a common element of the Hun, Avar and Hungarian Conqueror elite and very likely belonged to the branch that was observed in our Xiongnu samples. Moreover, haplogroups Q1a and N1a were also major components of these nomadic groups, reinforcing the view that Huns (and thus Avars and Hungarian invaders) might derive from the Xiongnu as was proposed until the eighteenth century but strongly disputed since.
- This is the most complete study 265 genome analized (Heliyon is a very prestigious Q1 ranked journal, a top ranked journal where only 17% of the articles are accepted.): [3] Result: Conquering Hungarians had Ugric ancestry and later admixed with Sarmatians and Huns
- These academic sources mention that medieval Hungarian chronicles claimed the Hun ancestry and that the Arpad was the descendant of Attila: [4][5][6][7]
- I took this sentence from the source:[5][6]
- Presence of the Hungarians in the Carpathian Basin was documented from 862 AD and between 895–905 they took full command of the region. The Hungarians formed a tribal union but arrived in the frame of a strong centralized steppe-empire under the leadership of prince Álmos and his son Árpád, who were known to be direct descendants of the great Hun leader Attila, and became founders of the Hungarian ruling dynasty and the Hungarian state. The Hungarian Great Principality existed in Central Europe from ca. 862 until 1000, then it was re-organized as a Christian Kingdom by King István I the Saint who was the 5th descendant of Álmos
- One third of the maternal lineages were derived from Central-Inner Asia and their most probable ultimate sources were the Asian Scythians and Asian Huns
- I think it is does not matter if it is true or not, but it is fact that the Hungarian medieval literature claimed the Hun and Attila's ancestry, so it is belong to the legacy section. Of course we have academic sources which critize this, and we can mention them also, more POV.
- Do you have a suggestion for using encyclopedic tone, repharsing idea?
- This is a new schoolbook in Hungary for all Hungarian students by the Hungarian Educational Authority, which means it is the mainstream academic theory now in Hungary based on the latest researches (page 57): [8] it said (fast translate): The Huns were made up of many different peoples, and they belonged to tribal confederations speaking many languages
- (page 105): According to ancient Hungarian legends, the Hungarians are descended from the Huns, at least they are related to the Huns. Foreign writers also related our ancestors to other steppe peoples, such as the Onogurs, Avars, and Turks. The linguists, on the other hand, classified the Hungarian language in the Finno-Ugric language family and claimed that an ancient people lived in the region of the Ural Mountains and spoke the Finno-Ugric language. However, such an ancient people did not exist in the north, that is, there was no such ancient language either. The similarity between the Hungarian and the Ural region languages could have developed in such a way that the Hungarian language could once have been a mediating language for the peoples who later moved to the Ural region. This is how the conflict between historical tradition and linguistic observations can be resolved. The matter is complicated by the fact that the history of a people is not the same as the history of a language, because becoming a people is a multidirectional process. The same thing happened on the Eurasian grassland, the steppe. Our ancestors met several peoples and intermarried with them. Thus, the Hun-Hungarian kinship does not belong to the world of fairy tales either. The Huns took part in the formation of the Hungarian people, even if we cannot speak of complete identity. In any case, the name "Hungarian" came from the Huns. around a Kutrigur-Hun king was called Magyar (Greek chroniclers recorded this name in the form Muageris)
- You can see even this schoolbook which was written by historians does not say "the Hungarians descendants of the Huns" but it say Hungarians had many ancestors and some Hun heritage also part of it.
- The Anglo-Saxon 'Cotton' world map (c. 1040) calls the territory of the Kingdom of Hungary: “Hunorum gens” = “Hun race” , if you zoom it you can find next to Pannonia: File:Cotton world map.jpg
- I think these things are part of the legacy. If we mention in the article that scholars refused the Hun-Hungarian things in the 20th century, why should we silent about the other things? I think Wikipedia should present more POV, and these are academic sources. OrionNimrod (talk) 15:35, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
- The fact that the right-wing nationalist Orban government has allowed a schoolbook to print something does not mean it is mainstream. There are textbooks printed in the US that say that the American Civil War was not about slavery. Why? Because that's what people want to hear. It's the same in Hungary. Hungarian nationalists have, for whatever reason, decided they really need to be connected to a people who most other Europeans associate (fairly or unfairly) with barbarousness and cruelty, to the point that Germans were called Huns as an ethnic slur.
- As I said before, all these studies are WP:PRIMARY. Mainstream historians do not believe that the Hungarian conquers really had anything to do with the Huns. The medieval legends about it are already mentioned and contextualized in the article. Ethnic groups on the steppes were not defined by genetics, and they repeatedly collapsed and reformed from disparate other groups. --Ermenrich (talk) 13:04, 4 June 2023 (UTC)
- Hi @Ermenrich, I think your modern example is not exactly correct. Because the Hungarian-Hun affinity is not a modern invention. It was declared (much earlier than any Hungarian medieval source) by many foreign high ranked authors (so not by the poor old smith at the corner of the small village in the forest), but by emperors, pops, church people, etc... from many countries which often were enemy of the Hungarians. So I do not think that those old people 1200 or 1000 years ago would be "Hungarian nationalists". I could show massive amount of quotes from old authors regarding this, but I understand we do not need use primary sources, just if modern academic sources refering to that. Just this is a conversation with you about the Hungarian nationalist purpose. This Anglo-Saxon world map is from c.1040, you can see Hungary as "Hunorum gens" = "Hun race" (between Tracia and the name of Pannonia): Early world maps#/media/File:Cotton world map.jpg, I think the map maker was not a Hungarian nationalists. German map from c 1235, next to "nunc Ungaria" = "now Hungary": "et hic sunt Huni qui" = "this is where the Huns live" Early world maps#/media/File:Ebstorfer-stich2.jpg. This was by Godfrey of Viterbo (clergy at the court of the Holy Roman Emperors): “Huni, sive Hungari” = “Huns, otherwise Hungarians”. And all medieval Hungarian documents repeates all the time: "Huns or Hungarians" "Hungarians namely the Huns"... I think nationalism is a modern idea. Also the Chinese alphabet use the same font for Huns and Hungarians only, no more meaning of this font: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/匈, I also do not think that old Chinese people who associated this font to the Huns and Hungarians would be Hungarian nationalist. But you can see the connection is more complicated, as I showed above, the modern Hungarian sources tells a complicated result, than saying all Hungarian conquerors were the same as Huns, according genetic test the Huns also were not only Huns, and Hungarian conquerors has genetic sample matches with Huns, but they were also a very diverse group.
- Of course Huns were associate with cruelty because their story was written by their enemies. However many book analyze the situation more deeply, and there are many development, impacts, etc even just see how many times were Rome plundered: Sack of Rome (For example at 1527 German mercenaries killed 45 000 civilians + robbed the city) but Attila did not plunder the city however his army was front of it and it was no Roman army at that time to defend it, it is clealry not a cruelty act comparing with others. I think we will have more academic sources when historians will use the result of the genetic science.
- I see many things already mentioned as you pointed out, just I plan to add more sources and some polishing on that section. OrionNimrod (talk) 11:20, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ a b Keyser, Christine; Zvénigorosky, Vincent; Gonzalez, Angéla; Fausser, Jean-Luc; Jagorel, Florence; Gérard, Patrice; Tsagaan, Turbat; Duchesne, Sylvie; Crubézy, Eric; Ludes, Bertrand (30 July 2020). "Genetic evidence suggests a sense of family, parity and conquest in the Xiongnu Iron Age nomads of Mongolia". Springer Nature.
- ^ a b Quiles, Carlos (2 August 2020). "Xiongnu Y-DNA connects Huns & Avars to Scytho-Siberians". Indo-European.eu.
- ^ Maróti, Zoltán; Neparáczki, Endre; Schütz, Oszkár; Maár, Kitti; Varga, Gergely I.B.; Kovács, Bence; Kalmár, Tibor; Nyerki, Emil; Nagy, István; Latinovics, Dóra; Tihanyi, Balázs; Marcsik, Antónia; Pálfi, György; Bernert, Zsolt; Gallina, Zsolt; Horváth, Ciprián; Varga, Sándor; Költő, László; Raskó, István; Nagy, Péter L.; Balogh, Csilla; Zink, Albert; Maixner, Frank; Götherström, Anders; George, Robert; Szalontai, Csaba; Szenthe, Gergely; Gáll, Erwin; Kiss, Attila P.; Gulyás, Bence; Kovacsóczy, Bernadett Ny.; Gál, Sándor Szilárd; Tomka, Péter; Török, Tibor (25 May 2022). "The genetic origin of Huns, Avars, and conquering Hungarians". Current Biology.
- ^ Horváth-Lugossy, Gábor; Makoldi, Miklós; Neparáczki, Endre (2022). Kings and Saints - The Age of the Árpáds (PDF). Budapest, Székesfehérvár: Institute of Hungarian Research. ISBN 978-615-6117-65-6.
- ^ a b Neparáczki, Endre; Maróti, Zoltán; Kalmár, Tibor; Maár, Kitti; Nagy, István; Latinovics, Dóra; Kustár, Ágnes; Pálfi, György; Molnár, Erika; Marcsik, Antónia; Balogh, Csilla; Lőrinczy, Gábor; Tomka, Péter; Kovacsóczy, Bernadett; Kovács, László; Török, Tibor (12 November 2019). "Y-chromosome haplogroups from Hun, Avar and conquering Hungarian period nomadic people of the Carpathian Basin". Scientific Reports. 9 (1): 16569. Bibcode:2019NatSR...916569N. doi:10.1038/s41598-019-53105-5. PMC 6851379. PMID 31719606.
- ^ a b Neparáczki, Endre; Maróti, Zoltán; Kalmár, Tibor; Kocsy, Klaudia; Maár, Kitti; Bihari, Péter; Nagy, István; Fóthi, Erzsébet; Pap, Ildikó; Kustár, Ágnes; Pálfi, György; Raskó, István; Zink, Albert; Török, Tibor (18 October 2018). "Mitogenomic data indicate admixture components of Central-Inner Asian and Srubnaya origin in the conquering Hungarians". PLOS ONE. 13 (10): e0205920. Bibcode:2018PLoSO..1305920N. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0205920. PMC 6193700. PMID 30335830.
- ^ Szűcs 1999, p. xliv ; Engel 2001, p. 2 ; Lendvai 2003, p. 7 ; Maenchen-Helfen 1973, p. 386 .
- ^ Történelem 5. az általános iskolások számára [History 5. for primary school students] (PDF) (in Hungarian). Oktatási Hivatal (Hungarian Educational Authority). 2020. pp. 15, 112, 116, 137, 138, 141. ISBN 978-615-6178-37-4.
Elite Hun burial genetic ancestry
@पाटलिपुत्र I am afraid I am going to agree with @Wikiuser1314 about the elite Hun's genetics image unless @पाटलिपुत्र has a convincing argument. It seems to be undue weight because this is the genetic ancestry of just a single individual. Also, the labels in the new image you ulpoaded are incorrect. You used the term "Khövsgöl EBA" but it's actually Khövsgöl LBA. Fries Montana (talk) 21:40, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
- Simply intended as a graphical illustration for a paragraph with complex data. Just one individual, but probably quite representative of elite Huns in general. I corrected "Khövsgöl EBA" to "Khövsgöl LBA" (might have to refresh the file cache to see it). Best पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 05:01, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- Okay, with the correct label it's at least acceptable. P.s. if you cannot create a new map for the Huns what do you think of moving the Eurasian steppe belt map to the infobox and get rid of the old one? Fries Montana (talk) 08:10, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- I like contextual maps, so I am thinking of making a Eurasia map (from France to Korea) with Hunnic territories in orange, and a faint green mass for the steppe belt. This could go in the infobox. What do you think? पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 08:47, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- It's good. But since we already have a similar map, wouldn't it be better to create for the infobox a map focused more on Europe/Western Asia (like the current one)? With such a map you could also include the sub-tribes like the Akatziris. Fries Montana (talk) 19:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
- Now that I think about it, maybe its better not to include the (Germanic) peoples ruled by the Huns in the map. Their position within the Hunnish empire is not so easy to pin down as far as I know, and the empire was ruled by the Huns after all (Thracians, etc. are barely included in maps of the Roman Empire, for example). I would maybe include the Akatziris though, since they are probably a Hunnish sub-tribe whose area is known with certainity. Fries Montana (talk) 19:56, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
Comment: There seems to be two individuals analyzed by Gnecchi-Ruscone et al. 2022, namely the Hun_P_Budapest_5c and the Hun_P_NTransdanubia_5c, with significant variation in their genetic makeup. The authors even state:
The only two Hunnic-period genomes available, analyzed above (Hun_P_Budapest_5c and Hun_P_NTransdanubia_5c), suggest a wide genetic variation for this mobile group...
In this regard, I made a collection of these two, and additionally the KazakhSteppe Hun sample and Tian Shan Hun sample (Kazakh_OutTianShan_Hun), which may be a better representation for the article:
I will add this quote accordingly; if there is any idea how to improve the collection or replace it with another, feel free to give suggestions or upload a better version.–Wikiuser1314 (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
- Great work. Thanks! पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 04:11, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry but I don't like the idea of having a picture for genomic data at all. This is even worse. For example, it presents chromosomes, even excluding the European Hun samples where Q paternal was found. It only includes the Tian Shan, which also has Q, but since the relationship between the Tian Shan and European Huns has not been definitely proven yet, it seems to almost separate them further in the eye of the reader. Other problems are that the map has no caption. How is a reader supposed to know what 'WSH' is? TBH I could accept the other picture just because it also mentioned Khovsgol, a topic that really interests me. But I have to vote against this one. I am just sorry for you for the time it must have took you. I appreciate that though and I thank you for that. Fries Montana (talk) 09:55, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think that there is much difference for the readers by writing "Khövsgöl LBA" or "WSH". Furthermore, the graphic is explained by the text to which it belongs. (The text mentions WSH=Steppe_MLBA=Sintashta.) I displayed the haplogroups of the four analyzed samples, henceforth no mention of the several other Y-chromosomes analyzed from additional samples, which however were not full genome sequenced (yet). But anyway, I have no strong opinion on including such graphic or not. If we use such graphic, perhaps this one, with only the two Hungarian Elite Hun samples explained in the text, is a better option.
- On another thought, we may shorten the genetic section and link/move it to the genetic section of the main article Origins of the Huns, in which we can be more detailed, only mentioning the genetic heterogeneity and some broad overview of Huns here (per above quote of Gnecchi-Ruscone et al. 2022 for example). Any thoughts?–Wikiuser1314 (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Khövsgöl LBA and WSH are not the same. Since it was supposed to be a "graphical illustration for a paragraph with complex data" I merely think that the lack of a legend doesn't make it as useful as it could, or should. I displayed the haplogroups of the four analyzed samples, henceforth no mention of the several other Y-chromosomes analyzed from additional samples I don't get your thought. This article is about the Huns, not the study on those four samples. A recap of the chapter should include all analyzed samples. Excluding the one with Q haplogroup is especially serious because that is an East Asian haplogroup, and the alleged East Asian origin of the Huns is a major topic of discussion. You also said which however were not full genome sequenced, but what does full genome matter when we are talking about haplogroups? While I am sure tou are in good faith, any attempt to add a "graphic" with the ancestry of the Huns can be taken as some sort of POV-pushing. Like I said, I can support-or rather not argue against-the previous graphic but I have to oppose this one. Fries Montana (talk) 14:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- I am not sure if I understand your concerns correctly. The graphic is an "illustration for a paragraph with complex data" on the two analyzed samples (the other two are full genome sequenced ones from Kazakhstan; all of which are mentioned in the section). I can not make a graphic for the other not full genome sequenced ones as we do not have any data (only haplogroups), so I made a graphic illustration on the four full genome sequenced ones and included their respective haplogroup. There is no difference in this and the previous one, other than a higher sampling number. Do you mean to remove the mentioned haplogroups of the two (or four) samples in the illustration? Adding a legend is probably useful, but again, the legend would use "WSH" (or Sintashta), etc. Obviously Khövsgöl LBA and WSH is not the same thing, but I tried to say that readers know exactly as much (or as few) about the one or the other component, henceforth these components are explained or linked in the text, to which the illustration refers to. Perhaps than it is better to not include such illustration at all... yet I am not sure if I get your point, the article is also not on the single specific sample illustrated before, what's the difference to higher sampling numbers? And haplogroups do not pinpoint their geographic origin, henceforth the full genome. My point was to display all the full genome sequenced samples, not one single. Again, I can not illustrate the other Hun period samples of which we only have haplogroups, because we only have haplogroups. So I guess I will just remove it for now... perhaps we find a better solution.–Wikiuser1314 (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Khövsgöl LBA and WSH are not the same. Since it was supposed to be a "graphical illustration for a paragraph with complex data" I merely think that the lack of a legend doesn't make it as useful as it could, or should. I displayed the haplogroups of the four analyzed samples, henceforth no mention of the several other Y-chromosomes analyzed from additional samples I don't get your thought. This article is about the Huns, not the study on those four samples. A recap of the chapter should include all analyzed samples. Excluding the one with Q haplogroup is especially serious because that is an East Asian haplogroup, and the alleged East Asian origin of the Huns is a major topic of discussion. You also said which however were not full genome sequenced, but what does full genome matter when we are talking about haplogroups? While I am sure tou are in good faith, any attempt to add a "graphic" with the ancestry of the Huns can be taken as some sort of POV-pushing. Like I said, I can support-or rather not argue against-the previous graphic but I have to oppose this one. Fries Montana (talk) 14:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- On another thought, we may shorten the genetic section and link/move it to the genetic section of the main article Origins of the Huns, in which we can be more detailed, only mentioning the genetic heterogeneity and some broad overview of Huns here (per above quote of Gnecchi-Ruscone et al. 2022 for example). Any thoughts?–Wikiuser1314 (talk) 13:37, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
I think Fries Montana's original concern is sensible and not really addressed here. The question is whether this is a topic where there is some sort of stable scholarly consensus. I don't think it is yet, at least not looking at these sources. Based on WP policies we should therefore avoid this topic until bigger studies have been done, and ideally there should also be a secondary literature.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:41, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed, I will just remove the illustration.–Wikiuser1314 (talk) 14:53, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks @Andrew Lancaster. @Wikiuser1314 what I meant is that if you don't use a legend you don't make it so much easier for the reader (which was supposed to be the purpose of the graphic). I mean, the way the illustration is, without legend, with four genomes, how easier does it make it for the reader? I was doubtful about the previous image but at least it was quite straightforward and admittedly somewhat interesting (IMO). I let it go more for its value as a "trivia", you could say. You cannot make a graphic for the non full genomes, but you shouldn't have included the haplogroups, because that way, for instance, haplogroup Q (East Asian) is excluded, while chiefly European/Eastern European ones are included. Fries Montana (talk) 22:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- OTOH, you are right, the previous graphic was limited to one genome and this is also not good. Anyway, better to just remove any such illustration. Fries Montana (talk) 22:18, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks @Andrew Lancaster. @Wikiuser1314 what I meant is that if you don't use a legend you don't make it so much easier for the reader (which was supposed to be the purpose of the graphic). I mean, the way the illustration is, without legend, with four genomes, how easier does it make it for the reader? I was doubtful about the previous image but at least it was quite straightforward and admittedly somewhat interesting (IMO). I let it go more for its value as a "trivia", you could say. You cannot make a graphic for the non full genomes, but you shouldn't have included the haplogroups, because that way, for instance, haplogroup Q (East Asian) is excluded, while chiefly European/Eastern European ones are included. Fries Montana (talk) 22:14, 18 June 2023 (UTC)
Let us add Odoacer' picture?
@पाटलिपुत्र, @Andrew Lancaster, @Wikiuser1314 In the desperate search of contemporary depictions of the Huns to add to the article (section "appearance") I thought about adding a picture of Odoacer, for whom we do have a contemporary depiction, the notorious one on the coin. It is generally accepted that at least his father was a Hun, it is my opinion that he had at least some Hunnic "blood" giving his "national" and geographical origin from the Hunnic Empire and date of birth (433, over sixty years, or potentially three generations, after the Huns penetrated in the area where he was born). I would have added the picture straightforwardly as per the bold policy, but I have a concern, which is rather esthetic: the 4-picture template we have now, with pictures of Xiongnu, Attila, and White Hun king, looks pretty, and a fifth image could disrupt the section. I wonder what you think about it all. Fries Montana (talk) 13:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- It seems to me we could get rid of the Middle Ages painting , which in all likehood has very little documentary value and is not very aesthetic, and replace it with your historical picture of Odoacer. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 14:22, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I question the relevance of any of these images of non-European peoples associated with the Huns by some modern scholars to a section on the physical appearance of the European Huns. The images should be removed or placed in the proper section, on origins - and it is not at all clear that Odoacer was in fact Hunnish.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Ermenrich I respectfully disagree. First, Attila (Chronicon Pictum) is the "Europeanest" Hun. The Xiongnu are accepted to be the ancestors of the Huns. A minority view holds they are unrelated or distantly related (through ruling classes), but they are still highly relevant to the article. Lastly, the White Huns are probably closely related to the Huns (if not the same people, as the caption suggests). They also had dealings with neighboring Alans, with whom the Huns later (re)mixed in Europe. On the White Hun connection we have not only the support of modern historians but also that of a contemporary historian (Procopius), i.e. someone who actually saw them both. The White Hun's appearance is highly relevant to this section and an image of them definitely called for especially in the absence of portraits of the (Attila's) Huns (if they were indeed a different Hunnic tribe). And the caption of the images is also cautious enough, maybe even too cautious. As for Odoacer, I didn't claim he was "in fact Hunnish", I said that his father was. Nationality is one thing but physical traits are inherited from parents and so his image is relevant in this section about physical appearance. Fries Montana (talk) 14:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- It is entirely unclear if Odoacer's father was Hunnish, as is discussed in some detail at Odoacer. What these images do is take the arguments of some scholars (the Hephthalites and Xiongnu are related to the European Huns, Odoacer is partially Hunnish) and display them without argument or nuance in a section that is about European Huns' physical appearance - thereby suggesting that the European Huns looked like these images, which is WP:OR. These images may fit somewhere in the article but it is not there.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Ermenrich disagree. It is precisely here where they fit. It is not the argument "of some scholars" that Xiongnu/White Huns are related to the Huns. It is what science, modern scholars and even contemporary scholars tell us. Since these peoples are the same, closeley related or at the very least from the same ancestor, their appearance is relevant, and it is not a suggestion but a fact that the Huns looked like them, just like two brothers or cousins do, which is not to say they were the same (though this is yet possible in the Huns' case, and in fact this is what all the argument is about). Were the images without caption, were we claiming or implying "these are [European, Attila's] Huns", I would agree with you about the images' unfitness in those circumstances. But with the proper caption, they are very helpful to the reader, and make the article prettier, and based on the article's content and amount of data about Xiongnu-Hun connection, far from OR. Fries Montana (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- It is simply not true that this is the scholarly consensus. This review article from 2020 refers to the proposal having
only limited support in modern scholarship
. This statement qualifies for WP:RS/AC, meaning to state that there is a scholarly consensus you must demonstrate that the consensus has changed since 2020. The connection is still very much up in the air. It does our readers a disservice to suggest otherwise.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)- what are you talking about? You are mixing things up. What is your problem with having images? This article had (has?) some OR and other problems, like severe POV-pushing (somebody even tried to exclude the Q haplogroup and another East Asian one while adding all the European ones, goes figure!), however, the use of these images has nothing you can argue against, and after all they weren't removed till now. What consensus are you talking about? Consensus that White Huns and Attila's Huns are the same? No, there is no consensus about that, but it is obvious and certified that they are related to whatever degree (again, even Procopius states this), which is pretty obvious when you think that they come from the same area, have same lifestyle and even the same name, and related people look alike. Adding such images in a section where, morover, the relationship between Huns and Xiongnu is discussed is fine. Images are to the discretion of the editor, they have to be relevant, and these obviously are. There is no need to have consensus that White Huns and Huns are the same to add an image saying "White Huns and Huns are considered related by a part of modern historians [etc.]" in a section describing their physical appearance and touching upon their origin from Xiongnu and relationship to White Huns. Fries Montana (talk) 16:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- It is simply not true that this is the scholarly consensus. This review article from 2020 refers to the proposal having
- @Ermenrich disagree. It is precisely here where they fit. It is not the argument "of some scholars" that Xiongnu/White Huns are related to the Huns. It is what science, modern scholars and even contemporary scholars tell us. Since these peoples are the same, closeley related or at the very least from the same ancestor, their appearance is relevant, and it is not a suggestion but a fact that the Huns looked like them, just like two brothers or cousins do, which is not to say they were the same (though this is yet possible in the Huns' case, and in fact this is what all the argument is about). Were the images without caption, were we claiming or implying "these are [European, Attila's] Huns", I would agree with you about the images' unfitness in those circumstances. But with the proper caption, they are very helpful to the reader, and make the article prettier, and based on the article's content and amount of data about Xiongnu-Hun connection, far from OR. Fries Montana (talk) 15:23, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- It is entirely unclear if Odoacer's father was Hunnish, as is discussed in some detail at Odoacer. What these images do is take the arguments of some scholars (the Hephthalites and Xiongnu are related to the European Huns, Odoacer is partially Hunnish) and display them without argument or nuance in a section that is about European Huns' physical appearance - thereby suggesting that the European Huns looked like these images, which is WP:OR. These images may fit somewhere in the article but it is not there.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Ermenrich I respectfully disagree. First, Attila (Chronicon Pictum) is the "Europeanest" Hun. The Xiongnu are accepted to be the ancestors of the Huns. A minority view holds they are unrelated or distantly related (through ruling classes), but they are still highly relevant to the article. Lastly, the White Huns are probably closely related to the Huns (if not the same people, as the caption suggests). They also had dealings with neighboring Alans, with whom the Huns later (re)mixed in Europe. On the White Hun connection we have not only the support of modern historians but also that of a contemporary historian (Procopius), i.e. someone who actually saw them both. The White Hun's appearance is highly relevant to this section and an image of them definitely called for especially in the absence of portraits of the (Attila's) Huns (if they were indeed a different Hunnic tribe). And the caption of the images is also cautious enough, maybe even too cautious. As for Odoacer, I didn't claim he was "in fact Hunnish", I said that his father was. Nationality is one thing but physical traits are inherited from parents and so his image is relevant in this section about physical appearance. Fries Montana (talk) 14:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @पाटलिपुत्र yeah, I would probably let go of that one. Certainly not of the White Hun king, with his beardless face, tiny eyes and thick neck. In addition, the White Hun's is contemporary... But then again, the image of Attila from the Chronicon does have something...and it is actually an image of Attila, the "Hunniest" of them all... Fries Montana (talk) 14:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I question the relevance of any of these images of non-European peoples associated with the Huns by some modern scholars to a section on the physical appearance of the European Huns. The images should be removed or placed in the proper section, on origins - and it is not at all clear that Odoacer was in fact Hunnish.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Ermenrich that the ancestry of Odoacer is a fascinating but very uncertain topic, despite all the great-looking leads. So this type of illustration could create a false impression. Looking for illustrative ideas, what about archaeological materials? (Reconstructions from burials?) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:14, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Andrew Lancaster a Schopenhauerian like me is always of the belief that an artist is more apt to capture the real essence of an object. Besides。nothing in the free domain is available. Sad you disagree on Odoacer, but just a precisation: purpose is try to reconstruct the appearance of the Huns for the reader by providing any possible depiction of them, or of something influenced, touched, partially of them. Odoacer may not have been a Hun himself, but he likely had some Hunnish descent (even the most skeptical about his ethnicity will give you that), and he might have, e.g. used haircut, beardcut, and dresses by or inspired by the Huns. Adding his image (with proper caption) would not reinforce the view he was Hun to the reader but just give some insight about their appearance, or what it might have been like. Also, could you give your opinion about the other images with proper caption(s)? Those which had been here for a while and have just been removed? Fries Montana (talk) 15:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Andrew - original archaeological objects are obviously better illustrations for this page.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Fries Montana all you say is nice in an artistic way. (I am not being sarcastic.) But we have to limit our ambitions here on WP. There is a whole can of worms here. Just for example, Odoacer comes out of a complex of cultures which includes Huns (and Goths), but so did his replacement Theoderic. This is a topic worth being cautious with.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Of course, I am just saying, even several skepticals will admit that artists can (doesn't mean they always do) see very deep, not only when it comes to the object they observe, as Schopenhauer would aver, but also, romantically, when it comes to subjects like Attila, Biblical subjects, etc. Plus, in the case of Attila's Chronicon's picture, the artist was probably acquainted with the appearance of contemporary Arpads (who, remember, claimed descent from Attila). If the artist filtered that into the depiction of Attila given by Priscus, he might have come close... And there might be more... We do not know whether in 1300s Hungary there was some depiction of Attila available (such as a sketch of the Hun king in some lost manuscript, like the bogus one which was around a while ago and even made it to Turkish and Israeli Wikipedias' main pages). Regarding Odoacer, of course he came from an intricate culture and eventually became Goth "by nationality", but I think it is very likely (due to the circumstances, let alone the fact his father was named like a contemporary noted Hun ambassador) he had at least some Hunnish ancestry, and this reflects in his appearance. And he also probably had (due to his upbringing - i.e. at the court of Attila) a Hunnish "mentality" and way of dressing, etc., which also reflect on appearance, and I think this is all relevant to this section (the image would have an appropriate caption, of course, explaining that it is not certain that Odoacer was a Hun, yet it is possible his father was, and he grew up among them). I agree that we should be careful with Odoacer though. This is partly why I opened a section at talk page instead of editing the article directly. But I am convinced the recently removed images are perfectly fine, and removing them is a loss for the article. By the way, if @पाटलिपुत्र has not changed his mind, I will restore them, since @Ermenrich is the only one opposing their use. Fries Montana (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think you are stating things as facts which are not known for sure, and I think this has already been explained several times - not only by Ermenrich. That doesn't really seem cautious?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Which things are you referring to? Some of the stuff I said is facts the rest is conjecture but the fact remains that Odoacer's appearance is relevant because he may have been a Hun. Waiting for the other editors to opine on the images removed by Ermenrich, I will restore them since its 2 editors supporting them and one who doesn't. I also invite @Ermenrich to discuss before removing against consensus. I will not add Odoacer image till I gain consensus. You can also still change my mind about adding Odoacer's picture. For now, I support its addition. Fries Montana (talk) 10:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Fries Montana: I provided a source the satisfies WP:RS/AC That the connection between the European Huns and other groups is not consensus. You cannot use WP:PRIMARY genetics sources to argue that this is wrong. You need a more recent source that also satisfies our academic consensus requirement.
- As for the images, I’ve objected, Andrew Lancaster had objected, it’s up to you to gain WP:CONSENSUS for them. And the “racist caricature” is a 19th century image that portrays the Huns as buck toothed, slant eyed and yellow skinned.—Ermenrich (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- You have no consensus at all. Adrew merely expressed doubts on Odoacer's image. I already explained twice why there is no need to gain consensus yo add a picture thay relates to the main text. Those images were established, been here a while. Another user helped me edit their caption and they agree with them. It's up to you to find consensus for your unexplainable removals. Note that I waited 24 hours to revert your damage. You have revert twice within a few minutes. Again, it's like there is some problem with adding pictures at all. But like I said, nobody can have monopoly on any article. Fries Montana (talk) 11:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Gain consensus before adding - I’ve explained the problem with the images location - you can add them in the origins section (where they were before) but it’s misleading to readers to add them there.—Ermenrich (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Who are you trying to fool? It is you who have to gain consensus. Two editors support the three images without Odoacer, one opposes Odoacer's, and one (you!) opposes any image whatsoever. Hence, I have consensus to add the three image but I need to leave out Odoacer, which is what I did. Fries Montana (talk) 11:54, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Gain consensus before adding - I’ve explained the problem with the images location - you can add them in the origins section (where they were before) but it’s misleading to readers to add them there.—Ermenrich (talk) 11:46, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- You have no consensus at all. Adrew merely expressed doubts on Odoacer's image. I already explained twice why there is no need to gain consensus yo add a picture thay relates to the main text. Those images were established, been here a while. Another user helped me edit their caption and they agree with them. It's up to you to find consensus for your unexplainable removals. Note that I waited 24 hours to revert your damage. You have revert twice within a few minutes. Again, it's like there is some problem with adding pictures at all. But like I said, nobody can have monopoly on any article. Fries Montana (talk) 11:43, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Ermenrich, just stop trying to have monopoly on this article. I have consensus for the pictures you have repeatedly removed, it is you who has to gain it. And by the way, looking at edit history I found out it was you who excluded the Q haplogroup and the other East Asian one from a list of all known haplogroups of the Huns (!). I suggest someone checks Ermerich's edits. Looks like legit editor but at least on this page he is making a mess IMHO. Fries Montana (talk) 11:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest you look at the talk page archives; those sources were removed by consensus.—Ermenrich (talk) 11:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have no time to provid diffs now. But let any editor have a look at page history. At some point Ermernich started to freely removing stuff from the article, and apparently pov pushing because they left out from a list the only two east asian haplogroups. They included very long quotes criticizing the Xiongnu Hun relation, removed or shortened sources supporting it. They even altered the chronological order of sources, perhaps to transmit/ enhance the impression Xiongnu Hun relation is weak. For example, there is a 2020 source firmly establishing Xiongnu Hun connection, and a 2019 interdisciplinary study rejecting it. They placed the latter after the 2020 study, which succeeds it in time, that is, is more new (I might be wrong with the dates of the studies, but thats the kernel of what they did). Fries Montana (talk) 11:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is no such 2020 study that “definitively proves the connection “. That is a WP:primary source. The interdisciplinary study is a wp:secondary source that satisfies Wikipedia’s requirements for academic consensus (WP:RS/AC). I suggest you review our sourcing policies before you make accusations of POV pushing.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I am tired of your wiki lawyering just to command what you want. I didn't have much time earlier to provide diffs and less time now that I have to argue against you at ANI. But be aware that I am 100% sure of ehat I've seen in the editor history of this article. Judging from your edits, you have clearly attempted to push your POV in the article. And now, to get what you want you went as far as reverting four times within 24 hours. As for the specific matter here: I explained several times now that you need consensus. It's two against one for the 4 images exluding Odoacer. Notice again how calm I am, how I let 1 day pass before reverting, and how quick you are to try and have it your way. Wait. Seek consensus. Stop repeating meaningless things. Fries Montana (talk) 12:35, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is no such 2020 study that “definitively proves the connection “. That is a WP:primary source. The interdisciplinary study is a wp:secondary source that satisfies Wikipedia’s requirements for academic consensus (WP:RS/AC). I suggest you review our sourcing policies before you make accusations of POV pushing.—Ermenrich (talk) 12:26, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I have no time to provid diffs now. But let any editor have a look at page history. At some point Ermernich started to freely removing stuff from the article, and apparently pov pushing because they left out from a list the only two east asian haplogroups. They included very long quotes criticizing the Xiongnu Hun relation, removed or shortened sources supporting it. They even altered the chronological order of sources, perhaps to transmit/ enhance the impression Xiongnu Hun relation is weak. For example, there is a 2020 source firmly establishing Xiongnu Hun connection, and a 2019 interdisciplinary study rejecting it. They placed the latter after the 2020 study, which succeeds it in time, that is, is more new (I might be wrong with the dates of the studies, but thats the kernel of what they did). Fries Montana (talk) 11:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I suggest you look at the talk page archives; those sources were removed by consensus.—Ermenrich (talk) 11:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Which things are you referring to? Some of the stuff I said is facts the rest is conjecture but the fact remains that Odoacer's appearance is relevant because he may have been a Hun. Waiting for the other editors to opine on the images removed by Ermenrich, I will restore them since its 2 editors supporting them and one who doesn't. I also invite @Ermenrich to discuss before removing against consensus. I will not add Odoacer image till I gain consensus. You can also still change my mind about adding Odoacer's picture. For now, I support its addition. Fries Montana (talk) 10:22, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- I think you are stating things as facts which are not known for sure, and I think this has already been explained several times - not only by Ermenrich. That doesn't really seem cautious?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:39, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Of course, I am just saying, even several skepticals will admit that artists can (doesn't mean they always do) see very deep, not only when it comes to the object they observe, as Schopenhauer would aver, but also, romantically, when it comes to subjects like Attila, Biblical subjects, etc. Plus, in the case of Attila's Chronicon's picture, the artist was probably acquainted with the appearance of contemporary Arpads (who, remember, claimed descent from Attila). If the artist filtered that into the depiction of Attila given by Priscus, he might have come close... And there might be more... We do not know whether in 1300s Hungary there was some depiction of Attila available (such as a sketch of the Hun king in some lost manuscript, like the bogus one which was around a while ago and even made it to Turkish and Israeli Wikipedias' main pages). Regarding Odoacer, of course he came from an intricate culture and eventually became Goth "by nationality", but I think it is very likely (due to the circumstances, let alone the fact his father was named like a contemporary noted Hun ambassador) he had at least some Hunnish ancestry, and this reflects in his appearance. And he also probably had (due to his upbringing - i.e. at the court of Attila) a Hunnish "mentality" and way of dressing, etc., which also reflect on appearance, and I think this is all relevant to this section (the image would have an appropriate caption, of course, explaining that it is not certain that Odoacer was a Hun, yet it is possible his father was, and he grew up among them). I agree that we should be careful with Odoacer though. This is partly why I opened a section at talk page instead of editing the article directly. But I am convinced the recently removed images are perfectly fine, and removing them is a loss for the article. By the way, if @पाटलिपुत्र has not changed his mind, I will restore them, since @Ermenrich is the only one opposing their use. Fries Montana (talk) 20:09, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- Fries Montana all you say is nice in an artistic way. (I am not being sarcastic.) But we have to limit our ambitions here on WP. There is a whole can of worms here. Just for example, Odoacer comes out of a complex of cultures which includes Huns (and Goths), but so did his replacement Theoderic. This is a topic worth being cautious with.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 19:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with Andrew - original archaeological objects are obviously better illustrations for this page.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Andrew Lancaster a Schopenhauerian like me is always of the belief that an artist is more apt to capture the real essence of an object. Besides。nothing in the free domain is available. Sad you disagree on Odoacer, but just a precisation: purpose is try to reconstruct the appearance of the Huns for the reader by providing any possible depiction of them, or of something influenced, touched, partially of them. Odoacer may not have been a Hun himself, but he likely had some Hunnish descent (even the most skeptical about his ethnicity will give you that), and he might have, e.g. used haircut, beardcut, and dresses by or inspired by the Huns. Adding his image (with proper caption) would not reinforce the view he was Hun to the reader but just give some insight about their appearance, or what it might have been like. Also, could you give your opinion about the other images with proper caption(s)? Those which had been here for a while and have just been removed? Fries Montana (talk) 15:34, 19 June 2023 (UTC)