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:::::: Evanescence isn't gothic metal because they're just not metal. Modern goth rock, maybe. I'd just put them as a gloomy alternative rock band. But not gothic metal. That doesn't mean that they aren't any good- on the contrary, I enjoy them quite a bit. But they're not metal. Is it really that big of a deal? |
:::::: Evanescence isn't gothic metal because they're just not metal. Modern goth rock, maybe. I'd just put them as a gloomy alternative rock band. But not gothic metal. That doesn't mean that they aren't any good- on the contrary, I enjoy them quite a bit. But they're not metal. Is it really that big of a deal? |
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:::::: Evanescence isnt Gothic Rock or Gothic Metal. Amy Lee first off pirated every song she did from other bands. Second she rewrite a lot of the music to be in the Nu Metal form. In case you missed it, dressing in Black and having a female vocalist does not make you a Gothic Metal band, as can be seen in bands, Nightwish, Fairyland, Synergy, Therion, and Lullacry. Second, learn how to write and compose music, the compusure of Evanescence is nothing alike Gothic Metal or Gothic Rock. Lastly, youve got most of your history wrong in that Evanescence created the Nu-Goth scense with Nightwish, Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation and Tristania. I will keep editing this until its amended - Ley Shade |
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== Other bands on the list - Goth or not? == |
== Other bands on the list - Goth or not? == |
Revision as of 23:51, 3 November 2005
Evanescence - Gothic or not?
Evanescence would have to be included as a modern goth metal band. The operatic singing/piano of Amy Lee combined with the metal sound and themes warrant their inclusion. This is perhaps a sign that the goth genre may be due for a revival, as they won a Grammy for best new artist.
Why you ask? Because obviously they are not gothic. Amy Lees singing is not operatic, and the piano playing makes her sound more like Tori Amos then Theatre of Tragedy. And a Grammy doesnt mean anything. Like every other fad, they will be very popular but after they release another album, their popularity will quickly wane and fade out of existence.
Just because Amy Lee dresses in clothes that are a little dark, sings and tries to sound depressed and sings all angst makes her far from gothic. Actually thats the mainstream stereotype of gothic and quite different. Maybe you should read the gothic article and listen to some gothic bands to see how different the 2 sound. --Arm
- ~ Evanescence are Gothic!! ~
No, your wrong Arm! Evanescence are gothic. Amy Lee does sing operatic and because she has another talent, playing the piano (for 9yrs) doesnt mean it makes her sound like Tori Amos, one of her infulences. And yes a Grammy does mean something, it means shes Best New Artist! Better than Queensrÿche which I might add have never heard of before in my life. Amy Lee does dress in clothes that are dark which is her style obviously, it's not like shes trying to be someone shes not. And if you had a life like Amy's with her close sister dying at a young age wouldn't you think that she might be depressed a little bit maybe? Plus as well as having a abusive realationship for about 2yrs which includes physical abusement like hitting, slapping, punching and rape. Sure Evanescence might sound different to other gothic artists but hey sure every band has a different sound and Evanescence arent just Gothic theyre also Hard Rock and Industrial Tendencies.
- A more proper question is rather Evanscene are Gothic metal or not. Goth music is has a much wider scope of styles than goth metal. Lee singing is not operatic and the style is somewhat similiar to Lacuna Coil - a band which is widely considered "goth metal" band. Band like Evanscene is what I call "Soft Gothic Metal" which far less agressive and classical than Scandinavian or doom gothic metal. MathKnight 08:16, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- If Evanescence aren't in the cat, Lacuna Coil wouldn't be. I defy you to tell them apart in A-B testing without knowing the songs. "goth metal" contains a lot of things purist goths wouldn't let you call "goth" - David Gerard 17:14, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Evanescense is Nu-Metal. I've removed the band from the list.
- I returned Evanescense to the list, as many regard it as Goth metal band. However, I added dispute notice as following: "Evanescence (label as Gotg metal is disputed)". MathKnight 16:48, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- How can you see Evanescense as Goth Metal? First of all, Evanescense is not Metal in any way. Evanescense is closer to Nu-Metal than anything else. The main reason for this, is that Goth is not supposed to be infected with Teen-Angst lyrics. Please read once more, the definitions of Nu-Metal and Goth Metal, then listen to the music. This discussion gives me the creeps. How can one even slightly doubt?
- I reverted it because 1. you don't refer to stuff in the Wikipedia article space in an article. 2. 'disputed' means 'verifiably disputed in the wider world'. That is, do you have references? - David Gerard 16:55, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- 1. Please clarify. 2. Read the above discussion, there are some who regard it as a Goth metal band. It is indeed very different than early Paradise Lost or Tristania, but are very semiliar to Lacona Coil (which is regarded Goth metal by nearly everyone). What is the difference between the two? MathKnight 17:23, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- ~ Evanescence are Gothic!! ~
No, your wrong Arm! Evanescence are gothic. Amy Lee does sing operatic and because she has another talent, playing the piano (for 9yrs) doesnt mean it makes her sound like Tori Amos, one of her infulences. And yes a Grammy does mean something, it means shes Best New Artist! Better than Queensrÿche which I might add have never heard of before in my life. Amy Lee does dress in clothes that are dark which is her style obviously, it's not like shes trying to be someone shes not. And if you had a life like Amy's with her close sister dying at a young age wouldn't you think that she might be depressed a little bit maybe? Plus as well as having a abusive realationship for about 2yrs which includes physical abusement like hitting, slapping, punching and rape. Sure Evanescence might sound different to other gothic artists but hey sure every band has a different sound and Evanescence arent just Gothic theyre also Hard Rock and Industrial Tendencies.
Thanks for the reply, Mr. X. I always enjoy to have these little debates.
If you want to hear a female goth metal singer sing operatic then go listen to some Nightwish songs. They can be downloaded off peer-to-peer programs or you can get samples from www.nightwish.com. Amy Lees vocals are far from operatic. Closer then Britney Spears but shes no Tarja Turunen.
And I dont care if they won Grammys or not. I see the Grammy awards as a big farce anyway. But Queensryche did have mainstream success too. They arent some obsecure indie band.
Being abused doesnt give you any artistic ability that you wouldnt already have. That just puts you in the same category of poetic quality as the frontman of KoЯn. Oh and about her being in an abusive relationship, Get out of an abusive relationship, stupid!
But I just dont find Evanescence to be gothic. Amy Lees singing is not mysterious or alluring, the musics not dark and the lyrics dont take on the typical goth metal subjects. At least not the way a goth metal songwriter would. Thats all.
And I am not some big goth metal purist.--Arm
- Nightwish are actually a Power metal band, not Gothic. A good example for Gothic operaic singer is Vibeke Stene from Tristania or Floor Jensen from After Forever. MathKnight 10:20, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Nightwish is a combination of power metal and gothic metal. --Arm
- ""We're definitely a rock band," says the 20-year-old Lee. "But the twist is that the band's music is epic, dramatic, dark rock."" - Quote from http://www.evanescencewebsite.com, an Evanescence fanpage. Also, if you read the Evanescence page on Wikipedia, it says "Evanescence is a rock band from Little Rock, Arkansas". I most kindly disagree with any point of view that says "evanescence is *metal", because Evanescence does not contain any metal influences, IMHO. Only the listeners like to think that they are "hardcore". --\alive
- Nightwish is a combination of power metal and gothic metal. --Arm
- Interesting that that website has been used as evidence that they aren't Gothic - the meta tags use 'goth' and 'gothic'. This is something I found from the (official) Placebo website a few years ago, when I viewed the source to see how something was down (forget what the effect was now, but I remember some of the meta information they were using for the search engines). Shall have to look at the official Evanescence website and see what search terms they're trying to elicit (when I have less windows open - you never know how much flash, bells and whistles a band site is going to have) sheridan
- Evanscence is more sort of a goth rock band to my opinion. However, I suggest to keep them in the list and add a dispute label and redirection to this talk page. MathKnight 13:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Except that articles should not link outside article space. Also, asking the band is irrelevant - if you believe that, The Sisters of Mercy aren't goth either - David Gerard 15:33, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- Evanescence isn't gothic metal because they're just not metal. Modern goth rock, maybe. I'd just put them as a gloomy alternative rock band. But not gothic metal. That doesn't mean that they aren't any good- on the contrary, I enjoy them quite a bit. But they're not metal. Is it really that big of a deal?
- Evanescence isnt Gothic Rock or Gothic Metal. Amy Lee first off pirated every song she did from other bands. Second she rewrite a lot of the music to be in the Nu Metal form. In case you missed it, dressing in Black and having a female vocalist does not make you a Gothic Metal band, as can be seen in bands, Nightwish, Fairyland, Synergy, Therion, and Lullacry. Second, learn how to write and compose music, the compusure of Evanescence is nothing alike Gothic Metal or Gothic Rock. Lastly, youve got most of your history wrong in that Evanescence created the Nu-Goth scense with Nightwish, Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation and Tristania. I will keep editing this until its amended - Ley Shade
Other bands on the list - Goth or not?
Leaving aside Evanescence for now, I would dispute a few more of those on the list. Therion, for instance - is there really anyone who would consider them goth metal? Not only that, doom/death bands like My Dying Bride and Anathema are also on there, but shouldn't be --MockTurtle 02:37, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC).
- In the narrow sense, Therion is a symphonic death metal band. However, "goth metal" in its broader sense is relating to any combination of some kind of metal with folk\opera\goth elements.
- Anathema and My Dying Bride are doom metal bands, but bands that uses gothic keyboards (and violin) and not employing a female vocals, and it was described in the article. In the early 1990's they were part of the forming goth metal movement, but while the goth metal evolved in Scandinavia into "beauty and the beast" style (see TOT and Tristania) they remained in goth metal's early doom stage. They are well described as gothic doom metal bands, at least in their early-1990's phase. MathKnight 13:17, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Seraphim and Edenbridge. I can see how Nightwish are power gothic, but not so much on those two.
Nightwish are some kind of gothic hybrid. Anathema and My Dying Bride are *definately* more doom than goth. Though i'd hesitate to put them in the same kind of kettle of fish as say Candlemass who are definately doom. Edenbridge don't describe themselves as Gothic metal. They called themselves "angelic bombast metal" or some such trash last i checked. Seraphim are gothic metal.
tidy up
This article is okay, but it could do with being split up a bit more (not into separate page, I hasten to add).
By way of an example, the following are sections from the articles on Gothic music and Goth that could conceivably have corresponding sections added (or existing content placed into sections) on this page. While some of these are probably redudant because they appear on other pages (predecessors) and others would be different because of this is a different genre (how many generations of Goth metal are there? Are there any generations to speak of at all?)
Origins and influences First Generation Second Generation Third Generation Musical Predecessors Musical arrangements Modern subculture Gothic horror References See also
I found the musical arrangements section on the music page to be interesting (even though I'm not a musician), though I couldn't say how accurate a lot of the information is.
talk about other things
How many other Goth-related articles are there on Wikipedia? How good is the related articles section of the main Goth entry?
Goth or Gothic
"Goth" metal isn't really the best title. It's more commonly called Gothic Metal, and Goth Metal suggests it only has to do with goths or goth music, which isn't accurate with all the different thing GM's become (not that it really was in the first page). Should it be switched around?
- I am also prefer the name Gothic metal, it seem to describe more properly the music - which is influenced more by medieval Gothic music rather than goth rock. MathKnight 07:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I third that. And also, Google favors the term (527,000 hits for "gothic metal" vs. 127,000 for "goth metal"). Are there any objections to my moving the page to Gothic metal? --Idont Havaname 1 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)
- Change it - this really is one of the few places that seemed to favor "goth metal." Not the best for an online reference.
- Ok. Done. --Idont Havaname 00:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
- Change it - this really is one of the few places that seemed to favor "goth metal." Not the best for an online reference.
- I third that. And also, Google favors the term (527,000 hits for "gothic metal" vs. 127,000 for "goth metal"). Are there any objections to my moving the page to Gothic metal? --Idont Havaname 1 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)
External links to official band sites
All of these links to the bands' sites are redundant, since the articles for the bands themselves have those links, and Wikipedia is not a web directory. I'd like to remove those, if it's ok. --Idont Havaname 1 July 2005 23:55 (UTC)
- Yes, it would look better cleaned up. Go for it.
- Yes, they can have them in their own wiki if at all.