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:I am waiting for others to weigh in. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 07:13, 8 January 2018 (UTC) |
:I am waiting for others to weigh in. [[User:Jytdog|Jytdog]] ([[User talk:Jytdog|talk]]) 07:13, 8 January 2018 (UTC) |
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::I would consider it a sign of good faith if you were to restore the relevance tag to the citation, as a compromise. This could attract more eyeballs and facilitate the discussion. --[[Special:Contributions/122.108.141.214|122.108.141.214]] ([[User talk:122.108.141.214|talk]]) 08:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC) |
::I would consider it a sign of good faith if you were to restore the relevance tag to the citation, as a compromise. This could attract more eyeballs and facilitate the discussion. --[[Special:Contributions/122.108.141.214|122.108.141.214]] ([[User talk:122.108.141.214|talk]]) 08:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC) |
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|[[Image:Searchtool-80%.png|15px]] '''Response to [[WP:3O|third opinion request]] ''': |
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# A source is relevant to a subject despite its age if it still describes reality to the best of scientific knowledge. Assuming the Ernst source does so, it can certainly be included in most articles about "detoxifying enemas" regardless of whether it mentions a specific method or instrument. |
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# However, the sentence in question is not about enemas, but about "Goop" promoting questionable products. The sources should first and foremost address that fact, rather than ancillary questions like "why is the product questionable". The Ernst source doesn't address the former, suggesting it is out of place. |
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# Furthermore, as the Ars source (which adequately addresses both questions) already mentions the Ernst article, attaching it on its own is redundant, and gives undue weight to a single source. |
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# The Ernst source should be removed. Worries about sourcing can be resolved by quoting any of a number of reliable sources on the matter.[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/08/gwyneth-paltrows-lifestyle-website-promotes-coffee-enema-in-its-annual-detox-guide-experts-say-its-bogus/][https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2018/01/06/gwyneth-paltrows-goop-promotes-a-135-coffee-enema-kit/#1abe321b3229][https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/nation-now/2018/01/08/gwyneth-paltrows-goop-promoting-home-coffee-enema-kits-they-safe/1012261001/][https://www.livescience.com/61355-pseudoscience-goop-coffee-enema.html] |
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: [[User:François Robere|François Robere]] ([[User talk:François Robere|talk]]) 17:12, 8 January 2018 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 17:13, 8 January 2018
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Merge with Gwyneth Paltrow?
Various gossip-columns talking about Goop's controversies aside, I don't see any case for independent notability. The article feels partially promotional, and partially a hit-list of media attacks; neither is the basis of an encyclopedia article. Power~enwiki (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2017 (UTC)
- I disagree. The company is getting substantial coverage in reliable sources, and meets WP:GNG. true, because of Paltrow's status with the company, she's constantly mentioned in conjunction with it, but the founder and the company are distinct entities. TJRC (talk) 00:15, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
Sources include Fortune, The Guardian, The New York TImes, and The Washington Post. The company has received millions in venture funding, has a board, and a previous chief executive independent of Paltrow who departed and then returned to the company. Apple isn't any more a sub-section of Steve Jobs' page than Goop is a sub-section of Gwyneth Paltrow's page. A more appropriate analog, though, would be Martha Stewart (the person) and Martha Stewart Omnimedia (the lifestyle company).
The fact that the sources are largely negative is, I suppose, the nature of the company. It is a controversial company that advocates for things that are defined in Wikipedia as being controversial. In writing the article, I looked long and hard for sources and this is what I found. The only things I found that were not critical of the company had to do with the previous CEO, a new round of venture funding, and the moving of the company from New York to Los Angeles. If you have any additional material, I welcome it.
In citing the sources, I was very careful and very selective. Too many articles simply refer to other articles, rehashes that say the same thing. I found original sources and noted, in almost every case, that it was reported by multiple media outlets, making it not only newsworthy but worthy enough to note in Wikipedia. Rburriel (talk) 04:59, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Goop WP:RSs
Here's a link to the archive of the discussion we had on Talk:Gwyneth Paltrow about Goop and its critics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Gwyneth_Paltrow/Archive_1#Is_Gwyneth_Paltrow_Wrong_About_Everything.3F
I thought that a discussion of Goop and its critics met all the WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT requirements to belong on the Gwyneth Paltrow page, but 2 editors (who outnumbered me) kept deleting it. I'm glad to see a separate page about Goop with the controversy, but I think that WP:NPOV requires at least a paragraph of criticism on the Gwyneth Paltrow page. Separate pages on controversies usually get a hundredth of the views that the original page gets, and they arguably violate WP:POVFORK.
I think we should keep the Goop (company) page, but add a summary of criticism to the Gwyneth Paltrow page. I would do it myself, but not if the Gwyneth Paltrow editors keep owning the page and deleting all criticism. --Nbauman (talk) 17:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
SYNTH problems
One of the sources has been formatted as if it was from Goop in the article (using the cite web parameter website=Goop), but instead was from cancer.org and didn't mention Goop or Paltrow at all. In addition to this, a source used to cite "Some have characterized Goop's claims as "ludicrous and tantamount to fraud"." only discusses an expert invited onto Goop, not Goop itself. I have removed these from this article because I think this use does not meet WP:SYNTH. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 04:57, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
"PR" material
@Jytdog: Hi. I recently added some information about awards, and the edit was reverted as "PR stuff". The statement was properly sourced, to the best of my knowledge, so I don't quite understand the issue here. Please correct me if I am wrong with my approach? Thank you. 50.97.66.163 (talk) 07:56, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- yes this is PR stuff, sourced to the primary source of the award. Not particularly encyclopedic. Jytdog (talk) 13:09, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- I thought appropriate sources are third-party articles? Does this refer only to articles in the press, and not primary sources? Thanks for your response! 169.45.136.212 (talk) 08:47, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- The sources were not third party - they were both from the awarding organization. Jytdog (talk) 16:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- I see. So if the awards had been reported by an unrelated third party- that would be the correct type of source? Good info. Thanks for clarifying.169.45.136.213 (talk) 09:22, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
- The sources were not third party - they were both from the awarding organization. Jytdog (talk) 16:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
- I thought appropriate sources are third-party articles? Does this refer only to articles in the press, and not primary sources? Thanks for your response! 169.45.136.212 (talk) 08:47, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
Timothy Caulfield Criticism
@Jytdog: @Hob Gadling:Thanks for your help with this. Trying to understand why a source written by the subject himself is considered valid? Also, his statements focus on celebrities like Paltrow and their ridiculous claims, but don't directly involve goop. Choosing a title after the founder makes it relevant, but still a stretch, I think. 169.54.92.150 (talk) 07:19, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Ah, now I get it what your problem is. Well, Caulfield is not the subject, Goop is the subject and Caulfield is the source. I guess we should replace the "published a book" part by "wrote". --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
- Not sure I understand what you mean? In the section above, "PR" material, Jytdog explained that a source is not considered third party if they are in any way involved- the awards were awarded to goop, but the awarding party is close enough to the subject that the sources were questionable. This seems like a similar case? As for the possible COI, the editor's other edits were pretty focused on that Timothy guy. 69.147.228.4 (talk) 07:11, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- "The editor"? Who is that? How is one case, whatever it is, similar to another case, whatever that is? Why do you give the other users here the job of finding out what you could mean, instead of just saying what you mean? Why should everybody repeat the research work you did? --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:01, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Now I had more time to look into the matter. The COI accusation seems to refer to User:Robincantin. But I can see no sign of any COI. Robincantin edited one article, then other articles connected to the first one. This is business as usual. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:46, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry if I wasn't clear. Working to figure out how NPOV works and why some pages seem to be so susceptible to what appear to be biased or particularly critical edits. My earlier question was as follows: the addition of 2 awards won by goop's products was reverted, because the source cited was from the awarding organization itself (in this case, Allure). @Jytdog: explained that a source is not 3rd party if any of the discussed subjects are directly related to it. In this case, Timothy Caulfield is mentioned in the edit, and is the author of the source as well, which would mean that the source is not 3rd party, is that not correct? Obviously, there will be other sources online that support the addition to the criticism section, but my question is about the specific one that was used. Thanks for your time, and I hope this was more clear.69.147.228.3 (talk) 07:13, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- He is mentioned in the edit because he is the source. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- See WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, you will notice that the other things listed there do the same. Jytdog (talk) 13:59, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: @Hob Gadling: Hello! Not sure how primary source concerns apply here - the references are used to established that Caulfield wrote a book about Goop (in part); if Caulfield himself said he wrote such a book but we couldn't find an independent source to confirm he did, that would certainly be problematic. Thus I supported the statement with two sources - one from The Telegraph's Celia Walden, the other from an op-ed in the Globe and Mail from Caulfield himself. The concern the reference is to a self-promotion piece (by Caulfield, published by the Globe and Mail) bothers me a little more. Although I think it's okay, I can certainly substitute it for a second news report. The book has been widely reviewed and discussed in the media. Robincantin (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Jytdog:, @Hob Gadling:, @Robincantin: Got it, thanks! And thanks for the WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV reference, it was very helpful. Since this page seems to get a lot of attention, I'm going to continue to follow it to gain a greater understanding of these issues. I'm sure we'll meet here again. :) 69.147.228.2 (talk) 08:05, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: @Hob Gadling: Hello! Not sure how primary source concerns apply here - the references are used to established that Caulfield wrote a book about Goop (in part); if Caulfield himself said he wrote such a book but we couldn't find an independent source to confirm he did, that would certainly be problematic. Thus I supported the statement with two sources - one from The Telegraph's Celia Walden, the other from an op-ed in the Globe and Mail from Caulfield himself. The concern the reference is to a self-promotion piece (by Caulfield, published by the Globe and Mail) bothers me a little more. Although I think it's okay, I can certainly substitute it for a second news report. The book has been widely reviewed and discussed in the media. Robincantin (talk) 22:32, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry if I wasn't clear. Working to figure out how NPOV works and why some pages seem to be so susceptible to what appear to be biased or particularly critical edits. My earlier question was as follows: the addition of 2 awards won by goop's products was reverted, because the source cited was from the awarding organization itself (in this case, Allure). @Jytdog: explained that a source is not 3rd party if any of the discussed subjects are directly related to it. In this case, Timothy Caulfield is mentioned in the edit, and is the author of the source as well, which would mean that the source is not 3rd party, is that not correct? Obviously, there will be other sources online that support the addition to the criticism section, but my question is about the specific one that was used. Thanks for your time, and I hope this was more clear.69.147.228.3 (talk) 07:13, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
- Now I had more time to look into the matter. The COI accusation seems to refer to User:Robincantin. But I can see no sign of any COI. Robincantin edited one article, then other articles connected to the first one. This is business as usual. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:46, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- "The editor"? Who is that? How is one case, whatever it is, similar to another case, whatever that is? Why do you give the other users here the job of finding out what you could mean, instead of just saying what you mean? Why should everybody repeat the research work you did? --Hob Gadling (talk) 12:01, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
- Not sure I understand what you mean? In the section above, "PR" material, Jytdog explained that a source is not considered third party if they are in any way involved- the awards were awarded to goop, but the awarding party is close enough to the subject that the sources were questionable. This seems like a similar case? As for the possible COI, the editor's other edits were pretty focused on that Timothy guy. 69.147.228.4 (talk) 07:11, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Kelly Brogan Criticism
Hi @122.108.141.214:. Your addition to the criticism section is simply stating a fact, and written as is is probably more relevant (if anywhere) in the history section. You did not state who criticized goop for inviting her- but are criticizing them yourself.69.147.228.98 (talk) 06:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: Thanks for working on this!
History Rework
@Jytdog: Sorry to bother you. The changes I made were in the general structure alone, and I didn't remove any material or citations, unless I missed one? Did this somehow damage the page, as I see that you reverted. Thanks! 69.147.228.3 (talk) 06:34, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Puffery
Hi @122.108.141.214:. Thanks for helping me out with the new section! Just wanted to ask about the latest edit, where you removed the Dr.s from the goop wellness piece. Were the references problematic? Seeing as the criticism section often cites doctors and other experts who have an issue with the company or its products, I would assume that a mention of those who helped develop said products would be relevant to the page as well? Thanks again! 192.119.165.188 (talk) 09:41, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
- I don't think the references used were reliable, and the inclusion of the doctors read like promotional material and namedropping. In contrast, we describe Jen Gunter's expertise when we mention her, cited to reliable, third-party sources. Please read the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy for further guidance. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 23:31, 3 January 2018 (UTC)
Relevant
The 1997 paper by Ernst is not relevant to this article because this article is about Goop, not 'all the safety concerns to do with everything-wellness-related that has been criticised on Goop'. The Ernst paper predates Goop by a decade and discusses the safety of colonic irrigation (broadly construed) without reference to Paltrow or Goop, and the Ars Technica article adequately discusses the claims, with a link to the 1997 paper. Additionally, there is a wikilink to coffee enemas in the article, and the 1997 paper has been added to the coffee enema article. Retaining the paper in the article in addition to the Ars Technica link makes the article look biased and like a WP:COATRACK. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 01:43, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- It has a section directly on coffee enemas, which the bullet is about. This supports the content "despite a lack of scientific evidence to their efficacy and in spite of evidence of coffee enemas' potential danger". It directly supports that. We do not describe pseudoscience without describing reality next to it. Wikipedia is indeed biased... toward reality. Jytdog (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- The potential danger is adequately discussed in the Ars Technica article. It is overkill and a coatrack to insist on using the 1997 paper as well. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 02:49, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Ars faithfully repeats the journal article, and directly relates the coffee enema to Goop - the safety of the coffee enema is not the main topic of this article. I do not appreciate your suggestion that I am trying to violate PSCI, nor your comment that "Wikipedia is indeed biased... toward reality." You have been confusing me with the other IP hopping editor who has been editing this page. The Gwyneth Paltrow page has had issues before as it was overstuffed with citations that didn't actually support the arguments in the Wikipedia article. The inclusion of a journal article that predates Goop by a decade repeats this error. I have restored the discussion link to facilitate the discussion.--122.108.141.214 (talk) 03:12, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
I do not understand why it is vital that an article that does not mention Goop at all be included in this article to support the medical claims. The article could be several times its present length if MEDRS-compliant sources were required to debunk each of the criticised claims or items sold by Goop. I do not appreciate the accusation that I am "attempting to suppress sourcing", particularly as I have actually added the 1997 source to the coffee enema article, where it belongs, and improved it to link to its doi, the author's biography, etc. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 06:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes I know you don't understand.
- I am waiting for others to weigh in. Jytdog (talk) 07:13, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
- I would consider it a sign of good faith if you were to restore the relevance tag to the citation, as a compromise. This could attract more eyeballs and facilitate the discussion. --122.108.141.214 (talk) 08:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
Response to third opinion request : |
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