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Maurice27, rude unbeliver, by [[WP:Verifiability]] (please read it) the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. In your case, saying that 2:3 are official is not verifiable and neither a truth, because anywhere in Valencian law it isn't saying to be 2:3. Instead, it's verifiable that 1:2 and 2:3 are used both nowadays. But it's also verifiable that these are being used in different way, the 1:2 is always hoisted at top and, specially, in very historical simbols of Valencia. Also he have sources of 1:2 used before 1982, but until now there are no source for 2:3. In th other hand the 2:3 is used in a common and general way because of mimesis to proportions of the other two flag used on official buildings, the Spanish one and the European one. So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative. --[[User:Benimerin|Benimerin]] - <b><span style="unicode-bidi: embed;">كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب</span></b> - 09:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
Maurice27, rude unbeliver, by [[WP:Verifiability]] (please read it) the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. In your case, saying that 2:3 are official is not verifiable and neither a truth, because anywhere in Valencian law it isn't saying to be 2:3. Instead, it's verifiable that 1:2 and 2:3 are used both nowadays. But it's also verifiable that these are being used in different way, the 1:2 is always hoisted at top and, specially, in very historical simbols of Valencia. Also he have sources of 1:2 used before 1982, but until now there are no source for 2:3. In th other hand the 2:3 is used in a common and general way because of mimesis to proportions of the other two flag used on official buildings, the Spanish one and the European one. So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative. --[[User:Benimerin|Benimerin]] - <b><span style="unicode-bidi: embed;">كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب</span></b> - 09:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
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Benimerin (aka [[User:Joanot|Joanot]]), you have been already proven in [[Valencian Community]] talk-page to be wrong and you keep reverting sourced and referenced edits on this article also. In addition, the reasons given by you are completely uncyclopedic. If you keep reverting you will be reported. Since you created your new account, you haven't done a single edit outside this valencian flag matter (see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Benimerin]). You may believe to be a paladin of the truth in this matter, but the worst thing is that you are backing your point with erroneous edits: |
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*You are wrongly using the [[FIAV]] symbols (the senyera CAN NOT be used at the sea and there can't be 2 flags used [[de facto]] at the same time. |
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*The mere saying that there is a [[de facto]] flag means that there is a [[de jure]] (or official) one... (You missed that point) |
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*You are giving, as sources, drawings from medieval times which are not even in scale '''STATING''' the flag to be 1:2. Should you know that in those times, vexillological rules were not yet created. |
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*This sentence from you: ''"So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, '''more majestic''', as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but '''1:2 is more representative'''."'', just gives us all a perfect explanation in how you are using POVish and uncyclopedic reasons to back your complete lack of knowledge in vexillological matters and terminology. '''''Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as how any given editor would like it to be'''''. |
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On my part, I have given sources like: |
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*Explanation by the Sociedad Española de Vexilología (SEV) about its 2:3 proportions. See ([http://vexilologia.web1000.com/beval.htm Spanish Vexillological Society on the Valencian flag]) |
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*Pictures of 2:3 flags hoisted on the most notorious valencian and spanish government building: |
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- The Palau de la Generalitat. Here([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Palau_de_la_Generalitat_del_Pa%C3%ADs_Valenci%C3%A0_2.jpg] and here [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Palau_de_la_Generalitat_del_Pa%C3%ADs_Valenci%C3%A0_1.jpg]) |
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- The Council of [[Alcoy]]. Here ([http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v200/maurice27/?action=view¤t=Alcoy-Ajuntament.jpg]). Even if not deployed, picture is taken so close that is very easy to compare the length and width with the flag of Alcoy (a 2:3 flag see:[http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagen:Bandera_de_Alcoy.png]). |
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- The Spanish Senate. Here ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Banderas_de_las_comunidades_aut%C3%B3nomas_de_Espa%C3%B1a_frente_al_Senado%2C_Madrid.jpg]). It can be '''clearly''' seen that the valencian flag (6th from left to right) has exactly the same length and width as all the others, excepth for the [[Ikurriña]] which has 14:25 proportions (half way between 2:3 and 1:2) |
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*A decree published in the BOCV by Conselleria de justicia, interior y administraciones publicas de la generalitat valenciana: "'''DECRETO 116/1994, de 21 de junio, del Gobierno Valenciano''', por el que se regulan los símbolos, tratamientos y honores de las entidades locales de la Comunidad Valenciana. [94/4514]" see:[[http://www.pre.gva.es/bdlgv/defaultc.htm?URL=http://www.pre.gva.es/L/BASIS/DOGV/WEB/LEGIS_CASTELLANO/DDW?W%3DSIGNATURA_TOPOGRAFICA+EQ+%221487/1994%22+ORDER+BY+FECHA_DOGV/D%26M%3D1%26K%3D1487/1994%26R%3DY%26U%3D1]] |
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:I quote: |
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:'''''Artículo doce'''. Criterios heráldicos y vexilológicos |
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:2. '''La bandera será preferentemente cuadrilonga de proporciones 2:3''', es decir, una vez y media más de largo que de ancho, conforme el anexo III de este decreto.'' |
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Why would the Valencian government make a law asking to its municipalities to have preferabily 2:3 flags if the community flag was to be 1:2? |
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I would like to point out that it is possible to a territory to have an '''unofficial flag''' in addition to the official. The very same European Union has an unofficial alternative flag with a ratio of 3:7, rather than 2:3, in the Strasbourg hemicycle. (see: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:European-parliament-strasbourg-inside.jpg]). This doesn't mean that both european flags ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:European_flag.svg 2:3] and [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:European-parliament-strasbourg-inside.jpg 3:7]) have to become a [[de facto]] version of each other as Benimerian is trying to oblige us to believe. |
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I sincerely doubt that any other matter in dispute in wikipedia worldwide has more sources, references or proofs that the ones I have contributed with. '''ONLY''' flags hoisted in official buildings (legislative, executive and/or judiciary branches) in Spain do have an strict protocolary code. (see: [http://edit.mae.es/MAEC-PORTAL/templates/CmsTmpETX.aspx?NRMODE=Published&NRNODEGUID=%7bEFB35136-CB44-45E2-8520-4025A1AEC714%7d&NRORIGINALURL=%2fen%2fMenuPpal%2fMinisterio%2fHistoria%2by%2bProtocolo%2fProtocolo%2fUso%2bde%2bla%2bbandera%2bde%2bEspana%2by%2botras%2bensenas%2f&NRCACHEHINT=NoModifyGuest#sec1 Use of the Spanish flag and other ensigns. Ministerio de Asuntos exteriores y Cooperación]) |
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This is the second time I have to engage in a edit war with you because of this matter. I will copy/paste this paragraph in the [[WP:HV]] so that other users with interests and knowledge about flags may control and improve this article while preventing unbased edits like yours, which fall into [[WP:OWN]], [[WP:V]] and [[WP:3RR]] (as explained by me to an admin here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Physchim62#The_valencian_flag..._again...]) |
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--[[User:Maurice27|Maurice27]] 11:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 11:38, 12 July 2007
Catalan-speaking countries Unassessed | ||||||||||
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Heraldry and vexillology Start‑class | |||||||
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How could an anon user be allowed to a add wikiproject template? Isn't that a job for a registered and contributing member of that wikiproject? It's just a thought... --Maurice27 00:21, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27, rude unbeliver, by WP:Verifiability (please read it) the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is not truth but verifiability. In your case, saying that 2:3 are official is not verifiable and neither a truth, because anywhere in Valencian law it isn't saying to be 2:3. Instead, it's verifiable that 1:2 and 2:3 are used both nowadays. But it's also verifiable that these are being used in different way, the 1:2 is always hoisted at top and, specially, in very historical simbols of Valencia. Also he have sources of 1:2 used before 1982, but until now there are no source for 2:3. In th other hand the 2:3 is used in a common and general way because of mimesis to proportions of the other two flag used on official buildings, the Spanish one and the European one. So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative. --Benimerin - كُنْ ذكورا إذا كُنْت كذوب - 09:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Benimerin (aka Joanot), you have been already proven in Valencian Community talk-page to be wrong and you keep reverting sourced and referenced edits on this article also. In addition, the reasons given by you are completely uncyclopedic. If you keep reverting you will be reported. Since you created your new account, you haven't done a single edit outside this valencian flag matter (see [1]). You may believe to be a paladin of the truth in this matter, but the worst thing is that you are backing your point with erroneous edits:
- You are wrongly using the FIAV symbols (the senyera CAN NOT be used at the sea and there can't be 2 flags used de facto at the same time.
- The mere saying that there is a de facto flag means that there is a de jure (or official) one... (You missed that point)
- You are giving, as sources, drawings from medieval times which are not even in scale STATING the flag to be 1:2. Should you know that in those times, vexillological rules were not yet created.
- This sentence from you: "So these verifiable facts implies that Valencian crowned senyera in 1:2 is traditional, more majestic, as it's always hoisted at top, because the official regulation states that the flag must never touch the ground or floor. Both are used, but 1:2 is more representative.", just gives us all a perfect explanation in how you are using POVish and uncyclopedic reasons to back your complete lack of knowledge in vexillological matters and terminology. Wikipedia should describe the world as it is, not as how any given editor would like it to be.
On my part, I have given sources like:
- Explanation by the Sociedad Española de Vexilología (SEV) about its 2:3 proportions. See (Spanish Vexillological Society on the Valencian flag)
- Pictures of 2:3 flags hoisted on the most notorious valencian and spanish government building:
- The Palau de la Generalitat. Here([2] and here [3])
- The Council of Alcoy. Here ([4]). Even if not deployed, picture is taken so close that is very easy to compare the length and width with the flag of Alcoy (a 2:3 flag see:[5]).
- The Spanish Senate. Here ([6]). It can be clearly seen that the valencian flag (6th from left to right) has exactly the same length and width as all the others, excepth for the Ikurriña which has 14:25 proportions (half way between 2:3 and 1:2)
- A decree published in the BOCV by Conselleria de justicia, interior y administraciones publicas de la generalitat valenciana: "DECRETO 116/1994, de 21 de junio, del Gobierno Valenciano, por el que se regulan los símbolos, tratamientos y honores de las entidades locales de la Comunidad Valenciana. [94/4514]" see:[[7]]
- I quote:
- Artículo doce. Criterios heráldicos y vexilológicos
- 2. La bandera será preferentemente cuadrilonga de proporciones 2:3, es decir, una vez y media más de largo que de ancho, conforme el anexo III de este decreto.
Why would the Valencian government make a law asking to its municipalities to have preferabily 2:3 flags if the community flag was to be 1:2?
I would like to point out that it is possible to a territory to have an unofficial flag in addition to the official. The very same European Union has an unofficial alternative flag with a ratio of 3:7, rather than 2:3, in the Strasbourg hemicycle. (see: [8]). This doesn't mean that both european flags (2:3 and 3:7) have to become a de facto version of each other as Benimerian is trying to oblige us to believe.
I sincerely doubt that any other matter in dispute in wikipedia worldwide has more sources, references or proofs that the ones I have contributed with. ONLY flags hoisted in official buildings (legislative, executive and/or judiciary branches) in Spain do have an strict protocolary code. (see: Use of the Spanish flag and other ensigns. Ministerio de Asuntos exteriores y Cooperación)
This is the second time I have to engage in a edit war with you because of this matter. I will copy/paste this paragraph in the WP:HV so that other users with interests and knowledge about flags may control and improve this article while preventing unbased edits like yours, which fall into WP:OWN, WP:V and WP:3RR (as explained by me to an admin here: [9])
--Maurice27 11:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)