:[[User:Ritchie92|Ritchie92]] are you fine with a reference to Islamophobia as long as it doesn't make it obvious like a graph? BTW opinion polls and referendums are how we measure public opinions, these are not something demeaning as you imply. If you have studies showing "Chatham House" and "European Social Survey" are just cheery picked studies (results), why don't you bring it to article (otherwise they are not so cherry picked)?[[User:BlueMadrigal|BlueMadrigal]] ([[User talk:BlueMadrigal|talk]]) 12:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
:[[User:Ritchie92|Ritchie92]] are you fine with a reference to Islamophobia as long as it doesn't make it obvious like a graph? BTW opinion polls and referendums are how we measure public opinions, these are not something demeaning as you imply. If you have studies showing "Chatham House" and "European Social Survey" are just cheery picked studies (results), why don't you bring it to article (otherwise they are not so cherry picked)?[[User:BlueMadrigal|BlueMadrigal]] ([[User talk:BlueMadrigal|talk]]) 12:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
::A graph extracted from one or two polls (which nobody knows if they are reliable, how they are done, who funded them, etc etc) is meaningless, and really too much in this page. For example, why can't you just cite the result of the poll without having to create a graphical representation of the result of this particular poll? These two polls have been cherry-picked by ''you'', and this is called original research. It would be encyclopedic to report the incidence of Islamophobia in Europe using secondary sources instead of taking one or two polls and draw conclusions by yourself. --[[User:Ritchie92|Ritchie92]] ([[User talk:Ritchie92|talk]]) 15:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
::A graph extracted from one or two polls (which nobody knows if they are reliable, how they are done, who funded them, etc etc) is meaningless, and really too much in this page. For example, why can't you just cite the result of the poll without having to create a graphical representation of the result of this particular poll? These two polls have been cherry-picked by ''you'', and this is called original research. It would be encyclopedic to report the incidence of Islamophobia in Europe using secondary sources instead of taking one or two polls and draw conclusions by yourself. --[[User:Ritchie92|Ritchie92]] ([[User talk:Ritchie92|talk]]) 15:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
== Definition of the word "crisis" ==
{{u|Corriebertus}} keeps going with their argument about the word "crisis" not being defined as "a period (of time)", again with [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=European_migrant_crisis&diff=960708127&oldid=960697856 this edit]. I would like to point to dictionary definitions of the word "crisis": [https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/crisis Cambridge Dictionary] defines it as "a time of great disagreement, confusion, or suffering", [https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crisis Merriam-Webster] also has the definition "an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending", and [https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/crisis Lexico, by Oxford Dictionary] defines it as "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger."
So definitely a crisis can be "a period of time", because this is the English language. --[[User:Ritchie92|Ritchie92]] ([[User talk:Ritchie92|talk]]) 15:42, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
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Retitling the page
Colleague Drmies renamed the page today to: 'European migration events since 2013'. This was a bold action -- and Wikipedia encourages rightly such bold actions. Drmies gave a clear motivation: "What crisis?" The current name: 'European migrant crisis' is essentially "POV", he contends. I think I agree with that line of thought: basically, the current title seems a form of (political) framing: to call such events suddenly a 'crisis'(why?). 'Events' is a more neutral name. People have always migrated, which will often have caused problems here or there. Why should it be a 'crisis' as of some totally arbitrary date(2013?)?
Ritchie92 was unpleasantly surprised, several hours later, and reverted the "move" (= name change). In principle he had the right to do that, but I think he failed to properly motivate his revert. Drmies not having discussed on beforehand is not enough reason: if Ritchie has substantial objections to the title change--which we may assume--he should better have shown the politeness to let us know, immediately, what his substantial objections are. --Corriebertus (talk) 11:28, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Corriebertus: Bold edits to a page's content are encouraged (and by the way WP:Be Bold is valid both ways). Moving pages is 1) not something that every user can technically do, and 2) regulated in the appropriate page WP:MOVE. The first step to do when thinking about moving a page (especially when it can be expected that not everybody would agree) is to list it in the Wikipedia:Requested moves page. And by the way, such a topic as immigration deserves a discussion about such radical changes, don't you think?
So I had all the right to revert User:Drmies' "bold" move, even more because previous attempts to move the same page for similar reasons did not reach consensus (see this thread of nine months ago), and I stressed this in my motivation for the revert. Also, the fact that I reverted does not necessarily imply that I think the name of the page is good: I think it should be discussed appropriately by the community. If you or User:Drmies want to request the move again, please do it properly and seek consensus first, since you obviously don't have it yet. --Ritchie92 (talk) 15:03, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As there is a clear consensus NOT to move above, WP:BOLD doesn't really apply. It is incumbent upon the mover to build and change the consensus. ResultingConstant (talk) 15:45, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Well this is fun. Yeah, I didn't see that discussion, which by the way is hardly a ringing endorsement nor a binding contract ("a clear consensus NOT to move" is incorrect). One of the opposers (to a move) even concedes the title isn't neutral. Mind you, I was led here after looking at some other non-neutral NEWSy and essentially POV-y article, now up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Migration events in Finland in 2015, an article whose history and content strongly suggested that some POV-ish editor was at work here to create a kind of walled garden. HUH THERE WAS A CRISIS IN FINLAND, one might say. And one might say "migrant crisis"? What crisis? If these articles list events that go back years, sometimes a decade, then what was that crisis? (A crisis doesn't last a decade.) And doesn't "migrant crisis" in essence blame the migrant? Those who support this title, don't you think you should be a little ashamed of yourself if you consider that? Do you know where you go when you type "syrian boy" in our search box? Do it, and then click on the first link, and look at the picture, and tell me if that migrant is to be held responsible for any kind of crisis. Drmies (talk) 17:08, 28 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
User:Drmies The sources clearly refer to it as a "Migrant Crisis". If you want to change the title please find some sources that back up that it is not a crisis. Kilometerman (talk) 18:00, 29 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The "crisis" originated not primarily in the number of arrivals, but in the lack of working legislation on a European basis. And no serious attempt has been made since to fix that. Instead a number of deals has been made, between the EU and african countries, to halt the bulk of the migrants - resulting in bizarre stuff like this. However - when people manage to slip though that net, the lack of legislation gets obvious again. For example today its: still this and this. So the crisis is not over. Alexpl (talk) 21:49, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Academic sources generally refer to this as "European migration crisis of 2015" or some variation. But at the same time, some of them challenge the term "crisis" and to some degree the idea that this was a single even in 2015, rather than a trend that was building up from before and continued after that. --MarioGom (talk) 17:10, 13 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is there excessive prominence given to religion in the article lede?
I would like to remove "Muslim majority countries" fact from the lede. As long as the data is reliable, it should be added to the article body. However, the lede should be introductory part of the article. If the lede includes an information about religious views of the majority of migrants, it may cause a bias view. I would like this term to be removed from the article lede in order to protect impartiality of the article.Cosette9 (talk) 16:21, 30 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A religious standpoint is very necessary as it remains as the pillar of of the beliefs of the followers. Hence, it is not biased. HARSH PANDYA MUMBAI (talk) 11:05, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You're late to this discussion. Deb (talk) 11:11, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Migration origin
The article states The greatest number of refugees fleeing to Europe originate from Syria. But other reports suggest otherwise. Most recently, Deutsche Welle ([1]) reported that according to a 2019 study by Stiftung Asienhaus [de] the major group of immigrants comes from Afghanistan, not Syria. We should look for better sourcing and possibly fix or clarify this. --MarioGom (talk) 10:44, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That is a recent development. See for example [2] of march 2020: " (...) There are two reasons why relatively few Syrians and a disproportionately high number of Afghans in Turkey have made their way to the country's border with Greece and the European Union. Syrians who have managed to gain a foothold in Turkey in the past few years would have a lot to lose if they migrated illegally to Europe. Afghans, along with many other irregular migrants from Iran and Pakistan, would not. Syrians usually live in family units: They stay. Afghans and Iranians in Turkey are mostly young, single men: They want to leave." Alexpl (talk) 13:25, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Alexpl: Right. Although the mentioned study is from 2019 and probably spanning a previous period. I could not find the original Asienhaus study that DW talks about. The study is probably published in German and I'm not getting search keywords right. If anyone finds it, it would be good to check it. --MarioGom (talk) 09:46, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you raised this issue. There are too many blanket statements in the article. Deb (talk) 12:54, 9 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Requested move 27 March 2020
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not Moved, per discussion below. Station1 (talk) 06:14, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
European migrant crisis → Migration to Europe since 2014 – "Crisis" is an evaluative, judging term for a certain situation. However, the article as it is now does not give a clear definition of which situation is addressed here as "crisis". The lead sentence until today said: 'The crisis was a period with high numbers (…)', but did not say which period that was. Also, that statement in that opening sentence was apparently not based on any ref source, so it seemed an invention of a Wikipedia contributor – which ought not be the basis of a Wiki article.
Moreover, it seems not right to say that any period of time in itself can be a crisis. 'Crisis' means a difficult or problematic situation, it indeed takes place at a moment or in a period of time, but it is not that period of time itself. Apart from that unclearness of that alluded 'period in time', the lead sentence also didn't say what the suggested difficult or problematic situation ('crisis') was, any further than the vague indication "high numbers (…)" which is not a description but an evaluation (judgement).
Nevertheless, if we simply look at the contents of the article, that does not seem very obscure or unclear: the article clearly describes migration to Europe since 2014 and reactions on that. So let's just give it the short and clear name: 'Migration to Europe since 2014'. If we then find sources – not just Wiki editors, but sources – that identify certain difficult situations in that period concerning migration which they label as "crisis", surely we'll be able to find ways to present such judgements in the article. Corriebertus (talk) 11:36, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should adhere to the principle of commonly recognizable names. The term "European migrant crisis" is the name of a series of events that took place mainly during 2015 and beyond, whether you like it or not. It is a well-established term in media and it is even sometimes used in official contexts, for instance by the Council of the European Union. And it was indeed a crisis, of course both for many people who came to Europe (among which actually some died in the Mediterranean) but also for many EU member states, which had to take extraordinary actions, such as reintroducing border controls, to handle the crisis. Renaming the article to "Migration to Europe since 2014" changes entirely the meaning and does not summarize the content of the article well, in my opinion. --Glentamara (talk) 12:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strongly oppose. "Crisis" is a very well-sourced name for the events that the article describes. Actually, probably the only term that precisely describes the issue. It has been called a crisis by all factions and all organizations and people involved. There are a dozen reliable sources cited at the moment in the lead, which the OP themselves eliminated in this edit, which is really dishonest given that they are asking for support for a move that concerns also the descriptor "crisis" in the lead sentence.
Conversely, the term "Migration to Europe since 2014" is a very ambiguous, vague and generalized term which fails to describe the issue and the historicity of it. One could ask, then why are there no "Migration to Europe since 2009, 2004, 1945, 346 BC, etc"? And by the way the proposed title is not a name used anywhere to describe these events, unlike the term "crisis" which is overwhelmingly used and WP:COMMON. --Ritchie92 (talk) 14:30, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Ritchie92. Also, if there were not a specific on-going event (aka crisis), then the 2014 cut-off in the title would seem to be arbitrary to the reader. -- Netoholic@ 19:26, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. "European migrant crisis" is a good description of the situation. "Migration to Europe since 2014" would mean any migration to Europe, not just these Arab refugees that everyone is getting their knickers in a twist about, and "since 2014" is weirdly specific, as there is speculation about when exactly the migrant crisis started. The original Arab spring is three years older. JIP | Talk 23:13, 28 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The current name is a commonly used, well-sourced name.--Darwinek (talk) 00:52, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The current name is arguably the WP:COMMONNAME, while the proposed name is too vague for the subject. Additionally, despite the fact that the number of migrants and their impact on the EU's economy and ethnic constitution have been by and large fake news, the political crisis is unfortunately real. DaßWölf 15:21, 29 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2020
The title should read "European Refugee Crisis" - in the refugee community in Europe and vast refugee volunteer network across the world the word "Migrant" is thought of as a derogatory word used by the media to suggest these people do not have a valid asylum claim. "Refugee" is the respectful and accepted word that does not carry any racist connotations. The 1951 Refugee Geneva Convention (UNHCR) demands a person has the right to claim asylum, until this claim is accepted or rejected this a person is technically an "Asylum Seeker" but colloquially known as a "Refugee", the word "Migrant" implies the person had a choice whether or not to leave their home country, when in fact they did not. 2A00:23C5:98D:9B00:1052:D9C4:3774:FE08 (talk) 14:16, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. You’re suggesting a major change and should therefore engage in a discussion with other editors in a separate section on this page to reach a consensus. You’ll need to provide reliable sources to do so effectively. Good luck! — Tartan357(Talk) 14:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There's also a section that mentions migrants who look for work but don't actually live in the new location permanently (economic migrants). —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 15:34, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Removing Islamophobia references from anti-immigration positions
user:Ritchie92 removing repeatedly this [[3]] and this edit [[4]] two information based on his personal view. These graphics are not "two cherry-picked opinion polls" or "redundant to put a graphical representation" as he claims. These graphics show the basic tenet of "opposition to immigrants" during this crises. They belong to "Chatham House survey" and "European Social Survey Round 7." They show the public response toward "All further migration from mainly Muslim countries should be stopped" and "Attitudes towards different sorts of migrant." They are complimentary to each other. The issue represented is an important phobia in Europe. Removing references to "Islamophobia" is not a simple act. It is "white washing" the article by "sanitizing" an important negative outcome of the "crises". user:Ritchie92 is also removed [[5]] any reference toward European public response (anti-immigration) at the lead. If user:Ritchie92 doesn't believe in "Islamophobia" among the the anti-immigration groups, he should point to other sources sources rather than "white washing". BlueMadrigal (talk) 11:56, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I'd have to agree with User:Ritchie92 on this one. These polls are not directly relevant to the article. I am a bit surprised that BlueMadrigal wants them here, because they contribute to the article being made both unmanageably long and an easy target for those who want to introduce a racial slant to things. Much better to keep this article as short and to the point as possible. Deb (talk) 12:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Question - With all my respect: Deb 'm trying to learn Wikipedia administrators position. Should we remove "antisemitic" references from Nazism page, because it would make the article "unmanageably long" and "target for those who want to introduce a racial slant." Surely that would make the "Nazism" less controversial. BlueMadrigal (talk) 12:12, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not troubled about controversy. This article is supposed to be about a "migrant crisis", not about politics. The more we introduce opportunities to discuss the politics, the more contributors have the opportunity to sneak in racist views. The article's already pretty awful and introducing results of multiple polls is not likely to make it any better. Deb (talk) 12:16, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am all for talking about controversies. I am also not against citing opinion polls. I am against having a list of polls result (which is basically what this new section about "Public opinion" is made of), or having a graphical representation of some (yes, cherry-picked) opinion polls result. Why those two polls and not some other polls? Or then why not listing all possible polls? This is obviously an editorial choice that BlueMadrigal made alone. So I would support removing those graphs from the page. We can refer to Islamophobia in many other ways, without picturing the polls result here. --Ritchie92 (talk) 12:30, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ritchie92 are you fine with a reference to Islamophobia as long as it doesn't make it obvious like a graph? BTW opinion polls and referendums are how we measure public opinions, these are not something demeaning as you imply. If you have studies showing "Chatham House" and "European Social Survey" are just cheery picked studies (results), why don't you bring it to article (otherwise they are not so cherry picked)?BlueMadrigal (talk) 12:49, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A graph extracted from one or two polls (which nobody knows if they are reliable, how they are done, who funded them, etc etc) is meaningless, and really too much in this page. For example, why can't you just cite the result of the poll without having to create a graphical representation of the result of this particular poll? These two polls have been cherry-picked by you, and this is called original research. It would be encyclopedic to report the incidence of Islamophobia in Europe using secondary sources instead of taking one or two polls and draw conclusions by yourself. --Ritchie92 (talk) 15:04, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Definition of the word "crisis"
Corriebertus keeps going with their argument about the word "crisis" not being defined as "a period (of time)", again with this edit. I would like to point to dictionary definitions of the word "crisis": Cambridge Dictionary defines it as "a time of great disagreement, confusion, or suffering", Merriam-Webster also has the definition "an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending", and Lexico, by Oxford Dictionary defines it as "a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger."
So definitely a crisis can be "a period of time", because this is the English language. --Ritchie92 (talk) 15:42, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]