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:::"Claim" that he is Christian is somehow inaccurate? Explain, please, with specifics. [[User:BrandonYusufToropov|BYT]] 17:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC) |
:::"Claim" that he is Christian is somehow inaccurate? Explain, please, with specifics. [[User:BrandonYusufToropov|BYT]] 17:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::::Mentioning that he is a member of the Christian Identity movement and according to his own written statement "prefer Nietzsche to the Bible" is more accurate then simply saying that he is a Christian. -- [[User:Karl Meier|Karl Meier]] 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC) |
::::Mentioning that he is a member of the Christian Identity movement and according to his own written statement "prefer Nietzsche to the Bible" is more accurate then simply saying that he is a Christian. -- [[User:Karl Meier|Karl Meier]] 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC) |
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::::::::Alice in Wonderland time here. Would we treat, say, a statement from Bin Laden that he'd been cutting down on the time he spent reading the Qur'an as more "accurate" than a straightforward description of him as a Muslim? You are in such severe denial it boggles the mind. [[User:BrandonYusufToropov|BYT]] 23:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC) |
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''about him being a member of the "Christian Identity" movement, so I don't see why we should waste the readers time repeating ourselves about these issues''. |
''about him being a member of the "Christian Identity" movement, so I don't see why we should waste the readers time repeating ourselves about these issues''. |
Revision as of 23:07, 16 December 2006
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Censorship of "Right-wing Christian Terrorist" appellation
This is the merging of the To those who oppose describing Eric Rudolph as a Christian terrorist and "Extreme Right Wing" or "Christian?" heads
Anon editor 61.58.53.139 changed the description of Rudolph from "an extreme right-wing American terrorist" to "a Christian American terrorist." I'd like to revert it, because: 1) though conservatives seem to think "right-wing" is an epithet, it's simply a description of one's place on the political spectrum—and in this case, it's clearly accurate; and 2) calling him a "Christian" begs the question, "WWJB"—that is, "Who Would Jesus Bomb?" Most Christians would be offended by any association with the likes of Rudolph. Any objections? (NB: the anon editor made the same change on the Richard Jewell page. Those are, to date, his/her only two edits.)--RattBoy 12:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. As wikipedia's article on the term indicates, the definition of far right/extreme right is ambiguous, whereas the definition of a Christian is fairly clear. Christianity revolves around left-wing concepts of the equal treatment of others, which isn't common in far right circles, even those that claim Christianity. I don't see how Rudolph's beliefs or action could be considered unambiguously far right. Whilst the same arguement could be made against him being labelled a Christian, he claims that as his religion (as well as it being his motivation). Perhaps "extremist Christian" would be preferable? Ud terrorist 17:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
- He's not a Christian at all, any more than the Nazis in the so-called "Christian identity movement" are. I've removed the adjective, since this is tantamount to a smear of Christians in general.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.224.208 (talk • contribs) 05:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest that any further attempts to label him as a 'Right Wing' or 'Christian' Terrorist should be backed up with sufficient evidence proving that the motivations for his actions were either political or religious in nature. I'm talking about written statements or official transcripts, ect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.12.15 (talk • contribs) 03:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, especially given his letter to his mother about preferring Nietzsche to the Bible. TexasDawg 14:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- And Nietzshe wouldn't have given him any cause to go out and bomb abortion clinics - his only motivation for that was part of the right-wing christian extremism in america. And yes - i know some of the better christians are opposed to stating that right-wing fundamentalist christians are christian - tough shit, they follow a sect of christianity, albeit one that is signficantly ignoring the actual teachings of Jesus. The motiviation for their attacks on abortion clinics and homosexuals is their religion - that makes them a religious terrorist.
- Oh Sweet - I got sources now! http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/03/18/army.god.letters/index.html
- army of god website homepage for eric rudolph http://www.armyofgod.com/EricRudolphHomepage.html
- http://www.publiceye.org/rightist/rudolph.html
- It's very clear that he is a christian terrorist - your censorship of this article is a NPOV violation and unacceptable behavior for a wikipedia Lordkazan 12:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, especially given his letter to his mother about preferring Nietzsche to the Bible. TexasDawg 14:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
- I suggest that any further attempts to label him as a 'Right Wing' or 'Christian' Terrorist should be backed up with sufficient evidence proving that the motivations for his actions were either political or religious in nature. I'm talking about written statements or official transcripts, ect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.140.12.15 (talk • contribs) 03:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
To those who oppose describing Eric Rudolph as a Christian terrorist, do you also oppose calling Osama bin Laden a Muslim terrorist?
Are you ethical and consistent, or are you biased towards your own religious viewpoint and hypocritical in your views?
- They're christianist bigots biased in favor of their own religious viewpoint naturally! 12.226.237.65 03:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- No one is calling Osama that either. I don't see him as a Muslim terrorist. TripleH1976 04:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- Bullshit - straight from the OBL entry "Usāmah bin Muhammad bin 'Awad bin Lādin (Arabic: أسامة بن محمد بن عوض بن لادن; born March 10, 1957 [1]), most commonly known as Osama bin Laden or Usama bin Laden (أسامة بن لادن) is a militant Islamist and also the founder of the al-Qaeda Islamist paramilitary organization." - Try honesty next time! Eric Rudolph is a right-wing christian extremist and such should be noted in his file - DESPITE your in-group protective objections. Lordkazan 12:15, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
- No one is calling Osama that either. I don't see him as a Muslim terrorist. TripleH1976 04:02, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I have yet to see a VALID objection to stating the obviously true fact that he is a christian terrorist. You censorists are going to have to back yourselves up, or it's going into the article - especially since http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism mentions him by name and quotes him he has clearly said "I was born a Catholic, and with forgiveness I hope to die one." Lordkazan 12:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Main page restored (IE censorship of this information rescinded) - reverts will be considered vandalism and dealt with as such Lordkazan 14:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- Oh and just what authority do you have to make that claim? You have a problem with Christianity don't you? He didn't commit his crimes in name of religion. And if you notice in that Christian terrorism article references to Rudolph have yet to be cited. The information from CNN is hearsay. Just because CNN states it doesn't make it the gospel! TripleH1976 16:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- Anything I "have against christianity" doesn't require me to lie and pollute the wikipedia. It's fairly obvious that he is a right wing christian extremist as they are the ones that engaged in abortion clinic bombings, the term "homosexual agenda" is exclusively used by them, he was sheltered by them while a fugitive and he was brought up as one. Furthermore while you're busy pointing fingers at me for alledged bias you should be looking at yourself, because based upon your user talk page and your history of edits I don't trust you to be unbiased here.
- And yes I have something against "christianity", but not against "christians" (until they give me a reason to personally dislike them - as you have) - it's called: I'm the victim of religion oppression from christians and the victim of genital mutilation thanks to them. If you wish to continue this discussion we can have it on my user page.
- Eric Rudolph was a christian terrorist - no ifs, ands, or buts about it Lordkazan 20:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
some sources: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1196-2003Jun1 .. how about this - "There is evidence to suggest that his actions may have been motiviated by a form of extremist christianity making this Christian Terrorism, however there is no direct admission of this" - is that more acceptable to your in-group protective censoring ways? Lordkazan 20:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
and I can understand how you would try to avoid allowing his (almost certainly real) association to your religion be mentioned - you're trying to protect your religion and cast him as "not a real christian" for his beliefs - I would point out that points 1 and 2 on your talk page are not justifiable by your religion (especially your biased language), and point 4 goes against your religion Lordkazan 20:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- LordKazan, I'm going to ask you to calm down and remember Wikipedia policy, in particular no personal attacks and assume good faith. A tantrum isn't the way to build consensus. Is there some other way this information could be handled that would be an acceptable compromise? If you are stating that you are unable to leave your personal biases behind when editing Wikipedia, you're inviting others to stop viewing you as participating in good faith. --Dhartung | Talk 21:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- I already changed the article in a manner that will hopefully both be more accurate and more acceptable to TripleH - I have reason to believe his edits are NOT in good faith (see the top of his user page) Lordkazan 21:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, it is much better now. But why do you say my edits are not in good faith? I have created many good articles for wikipedia. The list in my talk user page is a small jab at someone. A certain someone, who defends a child-killer. TripleH1976 03:07, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Why is it that even Usama bin Laden isn't called a terrorist on Wikipedia in the introductory paragraph yet some insist on applying that appelation to Rudolph? How 'bout some consistancy? Is Wikipedia just another extreme lunatic Left Wing source? I've changed the description "domestic terrorist" to "militant activist" --67.72.98.87 17:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
How can anyone possibly complain about characterizing Eric Rudolph as a terrorist? What else would you call his crimes but acts of terrorism? Do you know what the word "terrorist" even means? Believe it or not, it means something more than a brown-skinned Middle Easterner. Additionally, the current makeup of the "Motivations" section is, to say the least, quite incoherent. How exactly does a self-professed preference for Catholicism mean he is not a Christian?--24.107.35.146 21:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hello. The dispute was not about the word "terrorist" but about the phrases "right-wing terrorist" or "Christian terrorist". Most sources do not label him based on his politics or religion. We're not arguing whether he was a Christian. --Dhartung | Talk 20:53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
No. We're arguing about whether it's fair, based on the reporting of reputable sources, to suggest that religion played a motivating role in his actions. The fact that he denies this is the case is interesting, but no more relevant than a similar denial from, say, Osama Bin Laden. WP has been very quick to label certain terrorist groups and individuals as religiously motivated ... and this situation is different because ...? Oh, yes. Because he's a Christian. BYT 21:07, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- I really want to be charitable, because where have you been during all this? I've been right here. Read 24.107.35.146 carefully. He says "How can anyone possibly complain about characterizing Eric Rudolph as a terrorist?" He does not say "How can anyone possibly complain about characterizing Eric Rudolph as a religious terrorist?" You may wish to argue that point, but 24.107.35.146 did not, instead bringing up skin color, as if we had determined that since Rudolph is white he cannot be a terrorist. We are not in fact arguing over whether he is a terrorist at all; we are only arguing, as you say, whether it is appropriate, if his actions were in some part motivated by religion, to call him a "Christian terrorist". Just because that's up above of the comment I'm responding to does not mean that the comment I'm responding to made certain points. --Dhartung | Talk 01:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- (NB: I'm not responding directly to Dhartung or to BYT, but to the greater discussion here of the "Christian Terrorist" appellation.)Karl Meier's edit of 01:22, 3 December 2006 pointed out that "it's already mentioned in the intro that he has connections to the Christian Identity movement." As it currently reads (as of early 3 Dec 06), the intro says "Eric Robert Rudolph…is an American domestic terrorist…who…was 'connected with the Christian Identity movement.'" Thus, the intro prominently says both that he is a terrorist and that he has strong ties to a group which uses Christianity as its raison d'etre. Isn't that quite a reasonable compromise? For one, I certainly don't see the article, as it currently is written, as something sanitized by hyper-sensitive Christians to disclaim any connection to him.--RattBoy 12:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- Rattboy, I agree that the Karl Meier edit is a good formulation. I don't see the utility in calling him an "American Christian" when we discuss it in more detail in the same paragraph. --Dhartung | Talk 04:03, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Melih Uzunyol wording
Does anyone else have a problem with:
- Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia, which killed Alice Hawthorne and wounded 111 others, caused the death of cameraman Melih Uzunyol by heart attack as he rushed to cover the incident.
I mean, did the bombing cause Melih Uzunyol's death? There is certainly a clear causal link, but I don't think we want to phrase it this way. --Dante Alighieri 10:22 1 Jun 2003 (UTC)
- done Smack
Please remove "captured" from the photo here. 209.56.26.107
Brother's message
Presumably the message his brother meant to send was "Stop chasing my brother, or I'll cut the other hand off".
SPLC link
The Southern Poverty Law Center link is dead - does anyone have a functional replacement? Also, that same line says Rudolph was "pro-laetrile", but the link to laetrile is merely a description of a chemical compound. If there's a philosophy associated with it, it should be explained either here or on the laetrile page. -- Finlay McWalter 12:51, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Nationality
There is nothing about his nationality. I assume he is an american...? I've added category American terroists, remove this if he is not an american --Oblivious 22:14, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Rudolph was born in the United States, so it would be appropriate to have him in the American terrorists category.
Redundancy
I do think it's unnecessary to repeat the entire list of every bombing, name every location, and every victim, all in the first paragraph -- not to mention the overly detailed history of his being a fugitive. At the very least it opens up the possibility of inconsistent edits. Shouldn't an article opening be a brief summary and overview? That seems to be a widely held philosophy. --Dhartung | Talk 04:17, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I wasn't reading your comment when I tried to make it more succinct. Anyways, I've replaced the entire text of Rudolph's statement with a simple link, because it seems to me that the statement shouldn't dominate 60% of the entire article. I've also removed redundant sentences that seem to be almost word-for-word. (Hey, this is one of my first major edits on WP! =D) TheProject 04:29, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- No, seriously, what you did was improve things in the same direction I tried to. I applaud your edits. My comment was directed at User:Neutrality, who may well come back and restore all that text again, for who knows what reason. --Dhartung | Talk 06:04, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Recent edits
I'm a little lost as to where to find the source that says Rudolph actually was part of the group Christian Identity. As far as I know, he has only been suspected of being part of it. I haven't heard of any proof that this is true. It even says, later in the article, that he has denied being a part of it. Is it possible to find proof to the contrary? Otherwise, saying that Rudolph is indeed associated with the group may be factually incorrect. TheProject 21:11, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I made some edits to reflect Rudolph's lack of verifiable membership in Christian Identity. Nihila 7 July 2005 00:02 (UTC)
I believe one possible link between Eric Rudolph and Christian Identity was that his mother took him to some sort of Identity gathering when he was younger. I read that in some mainstream wire service report after his arrest, sorry, I don't recall where. Maybe a simple search will turn up something referanceable. It's very possible that he had varied interests (or delusions, however you'd put it) in a range of right-wing ideologies and perhaps theologies, maybe changing over time as he looked for support from various sources. *** Carl, Southern Students for Choice, Athens, Georgia
- Carl, the ADL and Cult News have information on this; it woudl be great if someone would distill the notable points into the article. Nevertheless, Rudolph's own statement is of testimonial value, and he claims there was little influence. Whatever else they believe, it's POV to connect them to Rudolph without hard evidence. --Dhartung | Talk 06:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
404 pages for external references.
The CNN.com link to his statement upon conviction has timed out of their system and won't pull up anymore; does anyone have another? ekedolphin 04:16, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
This URL is now showing an error on CNN's site. I think their format has changed since the url was published here.
Rudolph Letters on CNN's site: http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/05/rudolph.letters.ap/index.html
- I believe the original source, anyway, was this USATODAY article. --Dhartung | Talk 18:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
I have communicated with Eric and he is not a racist
The big lie media and liberals like to perpertate is that those with whom they disagree are racist. The media does this with little or no evidence and do those who are against the principles put forth by those who they disagree with. Eric's mother stated in the U. S. A. Today article that was false. She said when Eric was young, she had fallen on hard times, and as people go to different churches when in need, she went to an idenity group for a short time. She said she went to check it out as well as for assistance. She stated it was not what they believed and they left and that was the end of it. Eric was a child and was led by his mother. He has rejected publicly and in private all forms of racism. God created each human being and God made that human being the color they are. Who are we to say otherwise. If God created someone a certain way, who are we to not approve of what God has done? I too have been accused of racism, even though I have had a webpage for around ten years up, denouncing racism. The liberals ignore the plain facts and will attach to some half truth and keep repeating the lie. Do you think the Army of God, Eric Rudolph, etc. is not going to publicly say what they believe. Enough people hate us for what we say, why would we deny something else if we believed it. We believe homosexuals are sick sex perverts and babykilling abortionists deserve what ever they get. If we didn't believe God created all races, why would we deny it?— Preceding unsigned comment added by RevSpitz (talk • contribs) 15:28, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- Well Reverend Spitz, you have expressed some really ugly stuff here. So, you say, Rudolph is not a racist, but you imply he agrees with you that '"babykilling abortionists" deserve what ever they get ?'
- I am not going to fix your hate-filled rant. But by putting an initial blank at the front you render all but the first sentence unreadable.
- I hope some of the Christians who believe that Christ stood for love and forgiveness, rather than hate and violence, will spell out for you how wrong you are. -- Geo Swan 17:10, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- Rev Spitz is the operator of http://www.armyofgod.com/ (WARNING DO NOT CLICK IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH! Graphic pictures of SUPPOSEDLY ID&X abortions - 99% probability that these were featuses that died of naturally causes and had to be extracted) - this site is a right-wing christian extremist site associated christian terrrorism, particularily abortion clinic bombing. SPCL page (which includes evidence that he is, indeed, a racist) http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=72 Lordkazan 12:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Rush Limabugh Reference
The mention of him "quoting Rush Limbaugh" to his gay brother is really unnecessary and an attempt to defame Rush, so I've deleted it. ...added by 70.68.45.50
- Rather than jumping to infer an attempt to defame Limbaugh (who, incidentally, ought to have developed a thick skin by now), assume good faith. Incidentally, are you conceding that this event happened? -- Hoary 07:05, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
"a message to the FBI and the media"
We read: Daniel Rudolph, Eric's older brother, videotaped himself cutting off one of his own hands with an electric saw in order to "send a message to the FBI and the media." What was the message -- "There's more than one wacko in our family", perhaps? I looked in the linked article and it didn't tell me. If we don't know, then this merely looks like titillating trivia. -- Hoary 10:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
- Apparently the family all thought he was innocent; his sister didn't believe it until the plea deal. It's titillating trivia, but it was in the news and is almost always brought up as the most bizarre part of the whole story. --Dhartung | Talk 08:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Request for Comments
I have placed a request for comment on the terminology issue. Interested editors should make their cases here. --Dhartung | Talk 18:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- He committed acts of terrorism against homosexuals, and abortion clinics - which was a trend of christian terrorism in the united states, largely at the encouragement of Operation Rescue. As we agreed upon earlier - there is strong evidence to suggest he was a christian terrrorist, but no admitition as noted on the article page Lordkazan 19:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any question that "domestic terrorist" is an appropriate term, given that the gentleman in question has been convicted of those crimes. It's a term used by the FBI. I personally don't see that "Christian terrorist" is a meaningful or necessary term, as it's mainly used by POV-pushing groups. I would argue for "right-wing domestic terrorist", since major groups such as the ADL and Public Eye profile him with similar language.[1][2]. (Since 2000, the FBI has dropped language labeling extremist groups as "right-wing", while retaining the label for "left-wing" groups.) --Dhartung | Talk 19:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- Which is probably administration POV, but we can only patrol wikipedia not the planet :D. I would be ok with "right wing domestic terrorism" as, in just fairness to all christians, anti-homosexual oppression and anti-abortionism is much more right wing than christian. (infact the bible says somewhere that if a child is insubordinate stone them to death :D). Christianity is supposed to be around the left-wing ideals of jesus so "right wing christian terrorism" is ALMOST a contradiction. If only it was fully a contradiction Lordkazan 19:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
RfC
I gather this dispute is over how to characterize his illegal activities? Stay as close as possible to the technical language of the convictions and quotations from leading news organizations such as CNN. That is, if editors disagree about whether "Christian terrorist" is appropriate, it could be debatable in an editorial sense but definitely admissable as a direct quote from a New York Times article. Fair enough? Durova 19:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Durova, this discussion will be most successful, and least painful, if we orient it around the principle that we should as much as possible characterize him in the same way that the most reliable sources do. It seems like the sources brought up by Dhartung above have suggested a wording that may satisfy all parties. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
The policies WP:V and WP:BLP means that you need a reliable source for the labeling, so Durova and Christopher Parham are correct that you need to stick close to the sources. WP:BLP means that you also need to cite those sources for any negative material about him (or every editor is expected to remove the negative material on sight), which certainly includes the "terrorist" label with any preceeding adjectives. Reading the links above from Dhartung and Lordkazan, the best source appears to be the Washington Post article, which leaves the "Christian terrorist" item an open question. Between it, the ADL page, and The Public Eye page, it would be legitimate to label him as having associates or contacts adhering in the Christian Identity, however, all three decline to say that he was himself an adherent thereof or to be certain that his bombings were caused by holding that ideology. If they don't state it themselves, our obligation from WP:BLP to understate the sources means that we certainly can't state it on this evidence. GRBerry 22:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- Which is what the article states "There is evidence to suggest that his actions may have been motiviated by a form of extremist christianity making this Christian Terrorism, however there is no direct admission of this." Lordkazan 23:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
- It is better to attribute the phrase to one of the experts who has used it, rather than putting it in the "Wikipedia voice". --Dhartung | Talk 00:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Also, since all the sources specifically say Christian Identity, the text and link reference should be to that, not to generic Christian. Reading them, they all also go on to say how outside the mainstream Christian Identity is. Doing otherwise is going beyond the sources, contravening WP:BLP, which is policy. GRBerry 02:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent points about WP:BLP. In general - and especially for a living person - it's important to cite actual sources instead of using weasel words. Durova 13:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Also, since all the sources specifically say Christian Identity, the text and link reference should be to that, not to generic Christian. Reading them, they all also go on to say how outside the mainstream Christian Identity is. Doing otherwise is going beyond the sources, contravening WP:BLP, which is policy. GRBerry 02:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- It is better to attribute the phrase to one of the experts who has used it, rather than putting it in the "Wikipedia voice". --Dhartung | Talk 00:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
This RfC was posted over 2.5 months ago. The consensus seems to be to label Rudolph a terrorist—not a "Christian terrorist"—and to include sourced material which outlines his ties to the "Christian Identity" movement and other groups. The article reflects that apparent consensus. Isn't it time, then, to remove the "POV" tag from the article?--RattBoy 15:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
- I hadn't done anything recently because I wasn't yet comfortable with the presentation of the controversy -- which was brought up before even telling of the bombings. It's a tangential issue and not part of the encyclopedic core of the article. I've put most of that into a new section now, and if I'm happy with it in the morning, I think I'm ready to assent to the removal of the tag. It was User:Lordkazan who added it, though. [3] --Dhartung | Talk 07:16, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Reality check
Osama Bin Laden is identified as an "Islamist" in sentence one of his article, and as an "Islamic militant" in sentence two. If you think religious motivations are irrelevant, please go make the case on that article first. Thanks, BYT 13:14, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
- Islamist is the name of a political movement, not the religion. Christian Identity is in many ways analogous to Islamism in its relationship to the Christian religion, but they are not the same thing. --Dhartung | Talk 04:05, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- No. They are different things. If they were the same thing, there would be a picture of Osama Bin Laden in this article, and the heading would read "Osama Bin Laden." As it stands, though we've got an article about an Islamic extremist that mentions his religion (in a politicized form) in the first sentence. And we've got an article about a Christian extremist that must also mention his religion prominently, in the first sentence. RFC concluded the words "Christian terrorist" should not appear -- they don't. Again -- if you think that the person's religion should be minimized in these kinds of cases, maybe you should open up an RFC on Osama Bin Laden and see what happens there. BYT 12:56, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't know why Osama Bin Laden is being discussed on this articles talk page, but what I do know is that mentioning that is a connected to the Christian Identity movement is more accurate than simply claiming that he is a Christian. Another thing is that making not one but two separate claims about his religious affiliation in the intro section is superfluous. -- Karl Meier 10:10, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
Claims? Who said anything about claims? They're each (separate) established facts. Nobody's claiming anything. BYT 17:06, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but that is not the essence of the issue we are discussing. Try to read my previous comment again. -- Karl Meier 20:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
- You know, my wife does this to me all the time. I raise topic A, and she announces that we are in fact talking about topic B, and insists that A is not the essence of the issue we're discussing. The issue I'M discussing is the following: he's a religious extremist, and his religion is germane to any discussion of what he did. Whether Christians prefer that it be discussed or not, which some of them clearly don't. Try to read my previous comment again. BYT 06:46, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
- I not interested in knowing anything about your discussions with your wife. The point here is that his religious affiliation is already mentioned once in the intro section, and that doing it twice is superfluous. The other important thing here is that it is more accurate to mention he is a member of the Christian Identity movement rather than simply claiming the he is a "Christian". -- Karl Meier 12:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- It now seems that Mr. BYT is reverting to have some specific material repeated again and again, even though I made it clear in my edit summary that it has been moved to it's proper section. I want to know, how many times do you think we should repeat ourselves in this article, BrandonYusufToropov?`-- Karl Meier 15:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- One unanswered question, maybe important, maybe not: It says he identifies with Catholicism, "and hopes to stay one". Was he born Roman Catholic, or did he convert? Wahkeenah 16:13, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- It now seems that Mr. BYT is reverting to have some specific material repeated again and again, even though I made it clear in my edit summary that it has been moved to it's proper section. I want to know, how many times do you think we should repeat ourselves in this article, BrandonYusufToropov?`-- Karl Meier 15:49, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
weird wording
This article certainly gets off to a strange start. Almost immediately we are told that he preferred Neitzche to the Bible. Huh? I don't know what the point of that is. The lead section should establish notability, not dabble in obscure one-off letters that he wrote to his mother. — coelacan talk — 14:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's basically because some people insist on putting "keywords" at the beginning, which forces us to address it in an awkward way.--Dhartung | Talk 20:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Again -- reality intrudes
Once again: The first sentence has to describe what's notable about this person. This is a basic principle of the encyclopedia.
- Indeed. And an encyclopedia should do just that in an accurate and concise way. -- Karl Meier 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What's notable is that he's a violent religious extremist. This is relevant even if Christians prefer his religion not be mentioned. BYT 16:55, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- The claims about his religious affiliation is hardly the only notable things worth mentioning in this article, and there is no need to repeat them again and again. We have already included the more accurate claims about him being a member of the "Christian Identity" movement, so I don't see why we should waste the readers time repeating ourselves about these issues. An encyclopedia article and especially the intro section of such an article is supposed to be concise. Another thing is, please avoid making personal remarks and bad faith accusations in your edit summaries. -- Karl Meier 17:34, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
The claims about his religious affiliation is hardly the only notable thing worth mentioning in this article, and there is no need to repeat them again and again.
- Don't think I said it was the "only notable thing worth mentioning in the article." As for repetition, how many times it shows up after the first sentence is open to discussion. I'm talking about the first sentence. BYT
- What is important is that the intro section is accurate and that it doesn't repeat itself. To say that he is simply is a Christian is not accurate, and it already include more accurate statements about these issues. What you want to add is simply superfluous and makes the intro less accurate. -- Karl Meier 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Don't think I said it was the "only notable thing worth mentioning in the article." As for repetition, how many times it shows up after the first sentence is open to discussion. I'm talking about the first sentence. BYT
We have already included the more accurate claims
- "Claim" that he is Christian is somehow inaccurate? Explain, please, with specifics. BYT 17:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Mentioning that he is a member of the Christian Identity movement and according to his own written statement "prefer Nietzsche to the Bible" is more accurate then simply saying that he is a Christian. -- Karl Meier 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- "Claim" that he is Christian is somehow inaccurate? Explain, please, with specifics. BYT 17:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Alice in Wonderland time here. Would we treat, say, a statement from Bin Laden that he'd been cutting down on the time he spent reading the Qur'an as more "accurate" than a straightforward description of him as a Muslim? You are in such severe denial it boggles the mind. BYT 23:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
about him being a member of the "Christian Identity" movement, so I don't see why we should waste the readers time repeating ourselves about these issues.
- Again -- what we "repeat" after we clarify in the opening sentence that he is both a Christian and a violent extremist is not a big deal for me.
- That he is allegedly a Christian is not more notable in this article than the fact that he mentioned that he "prefer Nietzsche to the Bible". I wonder why you are not interested in mentioning this notable fact in the intro section? -- Karl Meier 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
An encyclopedia article and especially the intro section of such an article is supposed to be concise.
- Concise. Not willfully blind to established facts we'd rather not see in the opening. BYT
- His alleged religious affiliations is mentioned twice in the intro section, and material is more accurate than what you want to include. The article and especially the intro section is supposed to be both accurate and concise, and there is no reason to waste the readers time repeating anything. -- Karl Meier 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Another thing is, please avoid making personal remarks and bad faith accusations in your edit summaries.
- Which personal remark was that, please? BYT 17:40, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- I believe you insinuation about "the Christians" making specific edits for improper reasons was directed towards among others me. I and the other editors of this article haven't yet made any insinuations about why you, a Muslim editor, is so interested in having spelled out his religious affiliation again and again in this article, so there is no excuses why you shouldn't remain civil, especially in your edit summaries. -- Karl Meier 18:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- I hardly see how identifying the apparent preferences of a group constitute a "personal remark." BYT 23:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Christian Identity is a racist movement. Rudolph's statement about the bombing did not discuss race, but it did discuss abortion, which is a staple of generic politically conservative American Christianity. Nothing he said needs Christian Identity as an explanation. Christianity alone is sufficient, and regardless of Rudolph's views on race, he is part of a much wider Christian movement of pro-life violence (see Violence in the abortion movement and Army of God) that has nothing to do with race and everything to do with religion. I do not think it is helpful to focus solely on his religion, but I do not think it is helpful to overemphasize his racism when his statement reflects only his religion. We should not forget that there were plenty of non-racist Christians who cheered his actions, such as Michael Bray (see it in his own words). — coelacan talk — 18:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
For a trivial comparison, see the wording for the opening of Osama bin Laden: "Militant Islamist". It doesn't specifically say he's Islamic. That subject is brought up later under his education, as with Rudolph. Theoretically (though unlikely) one could be a "Militant Islamist" without even being Islamic. For Rudolph, maybe an appropriate term would be "Militant Christianist"? Simply labeling him "Christian" in the opening paragraph is an obvious attempt at POV-pushing. Wahkeenah 22:09, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- Obvious to you, perhaps. To others, it's simply factual. This is an encyclopedia. We deal in facts.
- Re: Theoretically (though unlikely) one could be a "Militant Islamist" without even being Islamic -- this is (I'm sorry) just surrealistically inaccurate. Name one such individual, please, from the real world.
- The unacceptable POV-pushing would be to pretend he had NO religious motivation, or that that motivation was so unimportant as to be absent from the first sentence of the article. BYT 23:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)