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::::Back to the topic of discussion (Sinema), I continue to believe a throwaway comment from a longer interview where she was pressed for a response is not [[WP:DUE]]. Although it seems at least one other editor agrees, I'll hold off on making the edit for now in the interest of collaboration and seeing if there’s more input. Tagging {{reply to|Firefangledfeathers|Elli|Burger1018|Cpotisch}} who have recently engaged in other discussions on this page for potential input. [[User:Dcpoliticaljunkie|Dcpoliticaljunkie]] ([[User talk:Dcpoliticaljunkie|talk]]) 04:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC) |
::::Back to the topic of discussion (Sinema), I continue to believe a throwaway comment from a longer interview where she was pressed for a response is not [[WP:DUE]]. Although it seems at least one other editor agrees, I'll hold off on making the edit for now in the interest of collaboration and seeing if there’s more input. Tagging {{reply to|Firefangledfeathers|Elli|Burger1018|Cpotisch}} who have recently engaged in other discussions on this page for potential input. [[User:Dcpoliticaljunkie|Dcpoliticaljunkie]] ([[User talk:Dcpoliticaljunkie|talk]]) 04:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC) |
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:Given the contentiousness of the article, I’m going to remove this until there’s consensus for inclusion. Also worth noting that OrcaLord is part of the same cohort of anti-Slotkin Twitter users who originally resulted in the page getting ECP. [[User:Cpotisch|Cpotisch]] ([[User talk:Cpotisch|talk]]) 09:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC) |
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== Moving in district == |
== Moving in district == |
Revision as of 09:29, 30 August 2023
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Calling her a "moderate"
If she votes 100% with the party-line, she is by no means a "moderate". She is a partisan and a far-left one at that. 2600:4040:445D:C200:3054:D91:F82E:74D1 (talk) 19:35, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- Which reliable sources call Slotkin "far left"? Cullen328 (talk) 19:38, 27 March 2023 (UTC)
- The fact that she votes with Biden 100% of the time. Unless you mean to tell me that abortion after birth and open borders are "moderate" positions. 2600:4040:445D:C200:698D:32A4:85C0:7809 (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- Votes have never been and never will be an accurate measure of an officeholders' positions, and even if they were, it's not Wikipedia's job to draw conclusions from that data, so you'd need a reliable source (likely multiple) Politicdude (talk) 02:13, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't need anyone to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. Some hack "journalist" posting a piece making far-left Elissa Slotkin look far less extreme than she actually is (as well as the rest of the Democrats) does not change the fact that she has been a mindless rubber stamp for Biden's agenda. 2600:4040:445D:C200:9852:55AA:BC87:3374 (talk) 12:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- If that's what you believe with your eyes, that's fine. But writing that on an article is a clear violation of Wikipedia:SYNTH and Wikipedia:OR policies and does not belong on a Wikipedia page without sources backing it up. Politicdude (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- How is it "objective research" when all of these "sources" are horribly biased? 2600:4040:445D:C200:D6CA:DA41:3C63:E306 (talk) 17:29, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- This article as currently written does not attempt to make an "objective" claim that Slotkin is a "moderate." It cites multiple sources showing sources describing her as a "moderate Democrat." Even if these characterizations result from bias, Wikipedia can cover them, as Wikipedia does NOT disqualify reliable sources for bias alone if they are the best way to cover a topic. Govtrack.us, Politico, and the New York Times are not currently Wikipedia:DEPSOURCES. If you believe that these are unreliable sources that should not be used on Wikipedia, you are welcome to discuss adding these sources as depreciated on this talk page, but that discussion does not belong here.
- You have also claimed that Slotkin is not only not a moderate but is "far-left." You are welcome to hold that viewpoint, but you cannot add it to Wikipedia without reliable sources describing her as such. So far, the only source you have provided is that she votes with Biden 100% of the time, which was true, at least in the 117th congress. However, that singular fact is not sufficient to say that Slotkin is "far-left," without a source tying the two together because of Wikipedia's policies on synthesis of sources.
- Whether or not Slotkin is "far-left," a mainstream Democrat, or a "moderate" is not the issue here. It is not Wikipedia's job to decide. Wikipedia is able to cover how reliable sources describe her ideology. Politicdude (talk) 18:01, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- It is interesting that Wikipedia only uses "reliable" sources with horribly skewed left-wing biases. 2600:4040:445D:C200:41BA:FED4:B5F6:2E37 (talk) 22:38, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- How is it "objective research" when all of these "sources" are horribly biased? 2600:4040:445D:C200:D6CA:DA41:3C63:E306 (talk) 17:29, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- If that's what you believe with your eyes, that's fine. But writing that on an article is a clear violation of Wikipedia:SYNTH and Wikipedia:OR policies and does not belong on a Wikipedia page without sources backing it up. Politicdude (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't need anyone to tell me what I can see with my own eyes. Some hack "journalist" posting a piece making far-left Elissa Slotkin look far less extreme than she actually is (as well as the rest of the Democrats) does not change the fact that she has been a mindless rubber stamp for Biden's agenda. 2600:4040:445D:C200:9852:55AA:BC87:3374 (talk) 12:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
- Votes have never been and never will be an accurate measure of an officeholders' positions, and even if they were, it's not Wikipedia's job to draw conclusions from that data, so you'd need a reliable source (likely multiple) Politicdude (talk) 02:13, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- The fact that she votes with Biden 100% of the time. Unless you mean to tell me that abortion after birth and open borders are "moderate" positions. 2600:4040:445D:C200:698D:32A4:85C0:7809 (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2023 (UTC)
- One, these sources are not biased in any way, shape, or form. While it would've been much more necessary to include that Elissa Slotkin has still voted for bills supporting access to abortion, removing the sources saying she left the Pro-Choice Caucus, said her district was pro-life when it voted for Proposition 3 by 15%, and some of her other stances isn't right. The language of the edits were not biased.
- And second, making the assumption that he's mentally handicapped is very disrespectful. You could've just included that he could've been ESL, but saying he could be handicapped isn't proper. You should really be ashamed of yourself for making that kind of assumption. Windorrum (talk) 05:16, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- According to the same source Krysten Sinema also vote with Biden 100% of times does that mean she is mot moderate to conservative democrat? The problem is they can be moderate by stopping bills from getting a vote which makes this number highly skrewed. 47.219.236.178 (talk) 07:01, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, Kyrsten Sinema is not moderate. She is far-left. 2600:4040:445D:C200:9852:55AA:BC87:3374 (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
"Abortion" section revised
I think this would be a good revision to summarize her positions on abortion, limiting synthesis.
In July 2022, Slotkin voted for the Women’s Health Protection Act, which would have established "a statutory right for health care providers to provide, and patients to receive, abortion services."[1] During her reelection campaign in 2022, Slotkin chose not to run any TV ads on abortion.[2] Slotkin has stated that she believes her district to be "pro-life."[3][4] In 2022, Slotkin's congressional district voted for Proposal 3, a ballot proposal to codify access to abortion in the Constitution of Michigan, by approximately 15%.[5] In 2023 she left the House Pro-Choice Caucus.[6][7]
-Mad Mismagius (talk) 05:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC) Mad Mismagius (talk) 05:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- A lot of issues here, but for starters, the statement that she did not run any ads relating to abortion is out of date and false.
- [1]https://awpc.cattcenter.iastate.edu/2022/10/27/42633/ Cpotisch (talk) 06:09, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- It's clear WP:SYNTH to mention the district results here, since there is not a reliable source making that connection to her stating her district is "pro-life". We need a reliable source to connect these two things to mention them in such a way. Elli (talk | contribs) 06:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. And I’m combing through the excel sheet and don’t see anything that explicitly says the numbers by district. Cpotisch (talk) 06:17, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Where in this spreadsheet does it list the district results because I’m not seeing it. Cpotisch (talk) 06:41, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- If you can't find district level refrendum data, I can concede that the refrendum violates WP:SYNTH but as to the claiming her district pro life part it is supported by direct reliable source, I can not condede this. 47.219.236.178 (talk) 06:55, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is a massive difference between what sources say and what is sufficiently notable for inclusion. Her making a statement about the nature of her district is not significant. This isn't an article about MI-7. You seem to think that her claim is some sort of "gotcha", but given that you just accepted that the SoS doc offers no insight into how the district voted, there is no such angle. Cpotisch (talk) 06:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Someone provided district-level result in this page with source 2022 Michigan Proposal 3 and it is pro choice+15, so now I think it has due weight to be added back since it, plus her"my district pro life" speech, does show she fail tu under her district when it comes to abortion. 165.91.13.234 (talk) 21:07, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is a massive difference between what sources say and what is sufficiently notable for inclusion. Her making a statement about the nature of her district is not significant. This isn't an article about MI-7. You seem to think that her claim is some sort of "gotcha", but given that you just accepted that the SoS doc offers no insight into how the district voted, there is no such angle. Cpotisch (talk) 06:58, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ "House passes bills to codify Roe, protect interstate travel for abortion". ABC News. 15 July 2022. Retrieved 2023-07-15.
{{cite news}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (link) - ^ Nichols, Hans (September 8, 2022). "Michigan Rep. Elissa Slotkin is leaving the abortion messaging to national Dems". Axios.
- ^ Skeversky, Jeff; Winfrey, Lauren (3 May 2021). "U.S. Rep. Elissa Slotkin discusses U.S. Senate campaign". CBS News Detroit. Retrieved 8 July 2023.
- ^ Maher, Bill (17 March 2023). "Real Time with Bill Maher March 17, 2023: Noa Tishby, Andrew Yang, Rep. Elissa Slotkin". HBO. Retrieved 8 July 2023.
- ^ Benson, Jocelyn (8 November 2022). "2022 Michigan election results". Michigan Secretary of State. Retrieved 8 July 2023.
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
caucusafter
was invoked but never defined (see the help page). - ^ Cite error: The named reference
caucusbefore
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
I just reviewed the sources again and I don't even see where they show her saying that the district is "pro-life." It's not listed in any of the text, so if it's in there at all,it's buried in one of the videos. That makes it pretty clear that there is no established notability. Cpotisch (talk) 07:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Then you are lying, In the first link from 5:00 to 5:06 she literally said "my district that I represents currently tilts pro life", in the second link it is from 7:08-7:0 in which she says "my district is pro life" 47.219.236.178 (talk) 07:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Accusing me of lying is certainly not assuming good faith, the clearest case yet of WP:BLUDGEONing, and also closing in on a personal attack. But moving past that, you may notice that I struck my remark that I couldn't find the comment. Nonetheless, her saying it twice between two interviews totaling close to an hour doesn't make it notable. It's not in the text of any article I can find. She said a million different things in those interviews but we clearly don't list them all out here. You still haven't proven that it's worth including. Cpotisch (talk) 07:17, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- She emphasized it twice in different interviews as the beginning of her statements on abortion, it clearly has enough notability. 47.219.236.178 (talk) 07:09, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
- Anyway I can agree on the latest version you write. 47.219.236.178 (talk) 07:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)
Because a new guard of brand new editors have started re-adding the contentious content, paging @Methanerocketancestor: @Thespeedoflightneverchanges: @Xandroe: @Elli: @Muboshgu: @Burger1018: @Binksternet: @Appleguy01: @Andrevan: to discuss this further. I am strongly of the opinion that the quote about her district leaning pro-life has in no way been shown to be relevant or meaningful, and the claims about how the district voted in the referendum have thus far not been sourced. Cpotisch (talk) 06:49, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- The quote about her saying her district was "pro-life" could possibly be meaningful if it made any news or prompted discussion regarding it. I'm not seeing this shown to be the case. Moreover, it seems to reinforce a falsehood about Slotkin's beliefs. The commentary on the district's actual lean is clearly original research. Burger1018 (talk) 06:59, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- By this case Slotkin vote for roe v wade should also be deleted, there is no news descuss about Slotkin being one of the house rep who vote for it. The link that I have deleted do not mention slotkin wt all.You can't use double standard. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 07:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- I have no idea what your line of thinking is with this. The bill to codify Roe gained massive media attention! For example this article explains precisely who voted for it and who didn't in the second paragraph! Conversely, there is no example of any outlet explaining Slatkin's opinion of how her district leans. Cpotisch (talk) 08:57, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- By this case Slotkin vote for roe v wade should also be deleted, there is no news descuss about Slotkin being one of the house rep who vote for it. The link that I have deleted do not mention slotkin wt all.You can't use double standard. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 07:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- The current version do not have original research about her district, and she use "my district is pro life" as the core of her points on abortion TWICE on notable medias that both have wikipedia page, this should be notable. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 07:23, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Anyway its clear that you are using double standard here, when proving Slotkin is pro choice you only.need the quote link comes from credibke source, but when proving Slotkin is pro life you think coming from credible source is not enough and there should be another media that report it indirectly. This is obviously unfair. Either delete both or keep both. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 07:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- This would be a valid argument if there weren't multiple outlets showcasing the importance of NARAL. For example, this Hill article mentions her as one of a dozen House Democrats being endorsed by them for reelection. So no, this doesn't help your case. Cpotisch (talk) 09:02, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- This response, like your past responses, simply does not address the concerns raised by myself and other editors. It is not sufficient for her to simply say a few words in an interview conducted by CBS. By your logic, her words "thanks for having me" are sufficiently notable to be laid out int his article, but that's obviously not true. Cpotisch (talk) 09:00, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Anyway its clear that you are using double standard here, when proving Slotkin is pro choice you only.need the quote link comes from credibke source, but when proving Slotkin is pro life you think coming from credible source is not enough and there should be another media that report it indirectly. This is obviously unfair. Either delete both or keep both. Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 07:34, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yep, still agree that it's undue to mention that comment from the interview. Elli (talk | contribs) 14:35, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
- Agree that it's WP:UNDUE. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:17, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Find this NDA deal story that got much media coverage, but do not know which section it should belong to.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/michigan/2023/02/06/michigan-economic-development-negotiations-code-names-nda/69858803007/ https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem-congresswoman-silent-why-she-signed-hush-agreement-chinese-tech-company https://thelivingstonpost.com/theis-joins-others-in-calling-for-investigation-of-proposed-battery-plants-chinese-connections/ https://www.yahoo.com/?err=404&err_url=https%3a%2f%2fnews.yahoo.com%2fnrsc-ad-puts-dem-rep-095031498.html Many media reported Slotkin signed Non disclosure agreement with a Chinese company over a battery factory, should it be put here? if it should be listed here which section should it belongs to? Thespeedoflightneverchanges (talk) 01:14, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- This is not relevant, and is exceptionally common especially for state legislators to do. Here's an article about that happening in Kansas. It would be relevant for an article about the site, but not Slotkin. Burger1018 (talk) 07:10, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Burger1018 read the links you and him provided they are different, Slotkin sign NDA about a project far from her district while the project DO NOT need her approval(it only needs state legislature approval), so what she do is abnormal, and it caused much more effects than the kansas example since this anomaly caused political attack. 47.219.236.178 (talk) 07:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for sharing. I'm a little confused what you mean when you say, "it caused much more effects than the kansas example since this anomaly caused political attack." The article I linked portrays the Kansas NDAs as negative, very similarly to how the Fox News article explains Slotkin's NDA. It's really pushing the boundary for relevance if you're having to give that much context to justify it. Burger1018 (talk) 07:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Burger1018 Kansas example never mentioned it is used in political ads, while according the fox article it is used in a lot of political ads 47.219.236.178 (talk) 17:52, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS. Fox News is not acceptable to use for U.S. politics. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for that, but then I think The New Republic describing Slotkin as the Next Sinema should be kept since it is listed as reliable source onWP:RSPSS
- link:https://newrepublic.com/post/174340/two-democrats-help-republicans-pass-vile-ban-pride-flags-military 165.91.13.234 (talk) 21:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- The New Republic is a reliable source. Calling her "the next Sinema" though? I don't think one throwaway line, especially making a jump like that, is WP:DUE. We should stick with the facts, i.e. why The New Republic thinks she's "the next Sinema". – Muboshgu (talk) 01:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Muboshgu The reason in the article are the policy positions that are already listed in "political position" section, so listing them again will cause WP:DUPCITES 47.219.236.178 (talk) 15:27, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- The New Republic is a reliable source. Calling her "the next Sinema" though? I don't think one throwaway line, especially making a jump like that, is WP:DUE. We should stick with the facts, i.e. why The New Republic thinks she's "the next Sinema". – Muboshgu (talk) 01:04, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- WP:FOXNEWSPOLITICS. Fox News is not acceptable to use for U.S. politics. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:01, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Burger1018 Kansas example never mentioned it is used in political ads, while according the fox article it is used in a lot of political ads 47.219.236.178 (talk) 17:52, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for sharing. I'm a little confused what you mean when you say, "it caused much more effects than the kansas example since this anomaly caused political attack." The article I linked portrays the Kansas NDAs as negative, very similarly to how the Fox News article explains Slotkin's NDA. It's really pushing the boundary for relevance if you're having to give that much context to justify it. Burger1018 (talk) 07:26, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- @Burger1018 read the links you and him provided they are different, Slotkin sign NDA about a project far from her district while the project DO NOT need her approval(it only needs state legislature approval), so what she do is abnormal, and it caused much more effects than the kansas example since this anomaly caused political attack. 47.219.236.178 (talk) 07:19, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
Should this disinformation be deteted?
Yesterday a footnote was added in the "LGBT" section of this page claiming that Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin support the flag banning amendment white even the source itself do not say so, it only says Austin support banninng hate flags while pride flag is not hate flag, shouldn't this lying footnote be corrected or deleted? 165.91.13.234 (talk) 17:21, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- The bit about Slotkin and flag display is covered in the Newsweek source. The context is clear that it's referring to the 2020 Pentagon ban on flags. It's not disinformation. Binksternet (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- It is deleted anyway but you are clearly lying here, the original quote is "supports a policy endorsed by Defense Sec. Lloyd Austin to ban hateful flags from flying on military bases", Is pride flag hateful flag? 47.218.111.38 (talk) 03:41, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- The bit about Slotkin and flag display is covered in the Newsweek source. The context is clear that it's referring to the 2020 Pentagon ban on flags. It's not disinformation. Binksternet (talk) 18:23, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
Removal of nuclear testing
Firefangledfeathers please do not remove nuclear testing. I have been talking with Binksternet on my talk page and we have both agreed that the source provided is valid. I don't want to revert your reversion and start an edit war so please either reply with an explanation of why you reverted it here or revert your edit. OrcaLord (talk) 19:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- I self-reverted pending discussion. I don't think we should be reporting all of Slotkin's votes as opposed to her views. Absent any explanation of why she voted, we have no insight into her view on nuclear weapons. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:41, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Haven't looked at the source, but I broadly agree with this formulation of the distinction, and it should be codified somewhere if it isn't. This isn't the first time that someone has, in good faith and for valid reasons, wanted to add a story about a particular vote. However, as FFF says, I believe it should be included only if we can substantiate some relevance to the candidates' views, thoughts, actions, activities, or prior or subsequent statements. Andre🚐 19:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- We are not a vote tracker. We need more than a source just saying "Slotkin voted for/against X" for it to merit inclusion. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
I have read the history of this page and see there are both first-hand source and second-hand source that covers this. https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2020142 andhttps://thehill.com/policy/defense/508206-house-votes-to-block-funding-for-nuclear-testing/. The latter one is from The Hill which is listed as notable and reliable source on WP:THEHILL And it lists out her name in the article:"Two Democrats, Reps. Elissa Slotkin (Mich.) and Henry Cuellar (Texas), voted against the amendment, while one Republican, Rep. Brian Fitzpatrick (Pa.), supported the measure.". If this do not meet the notability standard to be covered, what kind of coverage meets it? 114514politics (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Problem is she is a legisalator, whose vote is what really matters politically and directly affect the laws. If a legislator claim to support something but vote against it like what Scott Peters did with medicafre negociating drug price, the vote will decide the fate of this policy. So putting "explainations" above views is improper.Also in many other articles about legislators. the legisaltor's position is shown by listing their record. For example, the "political position" chapter of the incumbent senator of this seat Debbie Stabenow includes this: "In October 2002, Stabenow was one of 23 senators who voted against authorization of the use of military force in Iraq.[1]" "Stabenow voted against providing COVID-19 pandemic financial support to undocumented immigrants on February 4, 2021.[2]". If this should be deleted, what about these? 114514politics (talk) 20:22, 31 July 2023 (UTC)- Striking comments by a sockpuppet. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
- We are not a vote tracker. We need more than a source just saying "Slotkin voted for/against X" for it to merit inclusion. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Haven't looked at the source, but I broadly agree with this formulation of the distinction, and it should be codified somewhere if it isn't. This isn't the first time that someone has, in good faith and for valid reasons, wanted to add a story about a particular vote. However, as FFF says, I believe it should be included only if we can substantiate some relevance to the candidates' views, thoughts, actions, activities, or prior or subsequent statements. Andre🚐 19:43, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ "Senate Roll Call: Iraq Resolution". The Washington Post. October 11, 2002. Archived from the original on February 12, 2021.
- ^ "U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 117th Congress - 1st Session". senate.gov. U.S. Senate. Retrieved February 5, 2021.
@Firefangledfeathers, Muboshgu, Andrevan, and OrcaLord: Reopening this discussion given my bold edit [2] removing this information which was reverted with an accusation of disruptive editing [3]. Based on discussion here, it appears to be a general consensus (aside from the sockpuppet) that Wikipedia should not be a simple vote counter/tracker and that this particular vote doesn't have the WP:WEIGHT to be worth its inclusion. The citation provided is an article from The Hill which simply states how Slotkin voted. As Muboshgu and Andre, votes itself (even if reliably sourced) aren't automatic inclusions into articles about members of congress. Given the hundreds of votes members take every year, I agree that we need a reliable source that explains exactly why that particular vote has relevance. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 13:27, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree that there is consensus against including this vote coverage. At the very least, there is no consensus for its inclusion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:47, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. Given the lack of disagreement here, I will make the edit again. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 10:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- One person agreeing is not consensus. Also, seeing that you deleted the section and replaced it with one saying she supported a previous act of a similar name is a clear violation of WP:ADDBIAS. Not to mention that you are also in violation of WP:DE, WP:SIGCOV, WP:SPA, and probably numerous other violations, please do not alter the section unless you have a valid reason. OrcaLord (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are three other users on this talk page who have discussed this and agree with the removal. That's a pretty fair consensus on a page with 76 watchers. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks, @ScottishFinnishRadish: -- I'd rather not get into a battle of reverting with @OrcaLord: on this matter so hopefully someone else implements the consensus.
- Regarding, WP:DE, I'd suggest with respect that this edit [4] complete with an un-civil edit summary going against consensus would actually be the disruptive edit. I'm not sure why WP:SIGCOV would be relevant here (it seems to be about whether an article is notable, not whether something is due weight. And WP:SPA, I've edited about political topics generally -- seems like your edit history is similar. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 04:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- There are three other users on this talk page who have discussed this and agree with the removal. That's a pretty fair consensus on a page with 76 watchers. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:57, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- One person agreeing is not consensus. Also, seeing that you deleted the section and replaced it with one saying she supported a previous act of a similar name is a clear violation of WP:ADDBIAS. Not to mention that you are also in violation of WP:DE, WP:SIGCOV, WP:SPA, and probably numerous other violations, please do not alter the section unless you have a valid reason. OrcaLord (talk) 22:43, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agreed. Given the lack of disagreement here, I will make the edit again. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 10:05, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
Potential meatpuppetry
This should be raised here... see for your information Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1135#Thespeedoflightneverchanges. Thespeedoflightneverchanges was indefinitely blocked for their behavior on this article and one other. Cpotisch stated at the end of that discussion that the user reached out to them offwiki seeking to implement their desired changes and said there's a group of editors who "all hate Slotkin" looking to influence the article. Let's all keep an eye out for any suspicious POV pushing. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Just noting that I've blocked 114514politics as a sock of Thespeedoflightneverchanges. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- That figures. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not surprising at all. Was going to open a topic here about the article's generally negative tone which isn't in line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I plan to make some edits to try to improve this article. Hopefully, the wider editing community can remove some of the excessive negativity and undue weight to make this a better, well-rounded portrait of the congresswoman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk • contribs) 18:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- For those wondering why I reverted these deletions, see at User talk:Dcpoliticaljunkie#Disruptive edits on Elissa Slotkin page. OrcaLord (talk) 01:38, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Not surprising at all. Was going to open a topic here about the article's generally negative tone which isn't in line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I plan to make some edits to try to improve this article. Hopefully, the wider editing community can remove some of the excessive negativity and undue weight to make this a better, well-rounded portrait of the congresswoman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk • contribs) 18:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- That figures. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:03, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
Removal of sentence from political positions.
Marquardtika can you please comment on why you removed the sentence of Elissa Slotkin being the 5th most politically right/bipartisan Democrat? I know you say it is a WP:OR issue but how is govtrack not reliable? Would these two sources work?
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/detroit/2020/09/22/elissa-slotkin-paul-junge-fact-check/5854179002/
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/21/paul-junge/fact-checking-rep-elissa-slotkins-record-bipartisa/#sources
I am hoping that we can come up with a solution to this, so please reply here with your response or revert/change your edit. OrcaLord (talk) 03:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV, report the analysis but say where it came from. Binksternet (talk) 03:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the additional sources--I'll re-add in a minute. Marquardtika (talk) 14:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, all -- I've gone ahead and removed this piece of information. As noted in the conversation above, there appears to be a concerted effort to force as much 'negative' information about Slotkin into the article as possible. I understand that GovTrack is a reliable source, however, I would argue that it's only one of many different entities that track members of Congress' votes. FiveThirtyEight ranks Slotkin as with Biden 100% of the time. We could also note that she's one of the most bipartisan Congresswoman. We could note that she's one of the least likely to miss votes and votes with the party more frequently than the average Democrat according to ProPublica. Cherry-picking one source to characterize her as "conservative" doesn't serve readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk • contribs) 18:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
- For those wondering why I reverted these deletions, see at User talk:Dcpoliticaljunkie#Disruptive edits on Elissa Slotkin page. OrcaLord (talk) 01:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- As I note in my response to OrcaLord, I think we should keep the discussion about this article on the talk page and directly about the content being discussed. It's unfortunate that OrcaLord seems to believe that he owns this article and frequently reverts or defends any change that he doesn't like. Given the article's obvious slant which has been remarked upon multiple times in this talk page, I believe it would improve the encyclopedia to improve so that it provides a more neutral overview of the congresswoman and avoids giving undue weight to niche subjects which, while cited (largely to Bernie-stans), are inappropriate when seeking to present a NPOV, balanced view of the subject. I believe that should be the goal here and I hope other editors, including OrcaLord, agree. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
- For those wondering why I reverted these deletions, see at User talk:Dcpoliticaljunkie#Disruptive edits on Elissa Slotkin page. OrcaLord (talk) 01:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, all -- I've gone ahead and removed this piece of information. As noted in the conversation above, there appears to be a concerted effort to force as much 'negative' information about Slotkin into the article as possible. I understand that GovTrack is a reliable source, however, I would argue that it's only one of many different entities that track members of Congress' votes. FiveThirtyEight ranks Slotkin as with Biden 100% of the time. We could also note that she's one of the most bipartisan Congresswoman. We could note that she's one of the least likely to miss votes and votes with the party more frequently than the average Democrat according to ProPublica. Cherry-picking one source to characterize her as "conservative" doesn't serve readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk • contribs) 18:58, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
Given the lack of response here, I have edited this [5] to what I believe to be a more NPOV and appropriate description of her politics. Rather than describing her as "conservative" (a word which is not even used by the GovTrack source cited), I have added FiveThirtyEight's summary of her voting record. If we want to include a description of her relative stances according to GovTrack or PolitiFact, the descriptor PolitiFact uses is better summarized as "bipartisan" and "moderate" not "conservative" which is in the lede of the section. Obviously, I am open to thoughts, constructive criticism, and collaboration here. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 10:17, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I am remaining balanced. I did not revert your edit which added pro-Slotkin information. I simply believe that deleting evidence that is anti-Slotkin is wrong. If the information is relevant and accurate and follows the rules, then there is no reason to delete it. I have talked with others on this page before about this in a way that we could compromise, but instead of doing that you choose to delete first. Please, in the future, can we talk about this in a civilized manner before you choose to make deletions? OrcaLord (talk) 02:13, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Note: I've edited this page to keep the messages chronological. Hope that's fine. First of all, I find it concerning that you view the information here in the context of "pro-Slotkin" or "anti-Slotkin" -- our goal should be to build a balanced article not use Wikipedia as a platform to push our political views. Second, I did discuss this edit and waited 24 hours prior to re-implementing it. Third, you say "if the information is relevant and accurate and follows the rules, then there is no reason to delete it" -- could you then explain why you deleted the FiveThirtyEight information about her voting with Biden? [6]
Instead of viewing all information as "pro" or "anti", I think it'd be helpful if we could refocus on simply providing accurate information to readers. I don't believe characterizing the GovTrack source [7] as conservative is accurate or appropriate -- it's original research when all the source states is "bipartisan" and "politically right" (the political right of the Democratic caucus would be centrist or moderate, if we're being sticklers).
@Firefangledfeathers, Elli, Burger1018, Cpotisch, Marquardtika, and ScottishFinnishRadish: -- apologies for tagging again but would welcome additional input here from you as editors who have recently contributed here. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 04:44, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, so you are right that the word "conservative" is never used. I wrote the original line there before someone edited it for conciseness, and it read, "5th most 'politically right' and 5th most 'bipartisan' member" or something similar. That's clearly not nothing. Voting in line with the President 100% of the time is a misleading phrase when the Congress is so evenly split - bills don't go to the floor unless they have the votes. I don't feel that the edit you made necessarily reflects what the media reports about her political ideology, personally. Also, I can't speak for other editors, but please only tag me when it specifically pertains to me. Burger1018 (talk) 05:09, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Krysten Sinema
This section under "political positions" is based on a one minute clip, which I believe mischaracterizes the Congresswoman's position a longer Slotkin interview ("don't love it" / not important to people in her district /= opposed). I believe it should be removed entirely (or, if other editors strongly believe it should remain, be a more accurate summary of what she said in the interview). As it stands, I believe it is undue weight to devote a section to about 10 seconds in a longer interview where she essentially just tries to move past the question of motives. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 10:24, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with you. Marquardtika (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- It is a valid source under Wikipedia:Notability (media)#Newspapers, magazines and journals. Also considering that the article's title is "Don't question the motives of manchin, sinema", it seems like a pretty valid thing to add. Saying you believe it is a mischaracterization is not evidence. Looking at the City Pulse Wikipedia page, you can see that it is a media source that received a significant journalism award of honor so it is notable and reliable. Seeing by your edit history on the page, it feels like this is moreso done for political reasons than anything as you only delete things that paint Slotkin in a negative light and add things that paint her in a positive light. This is a clear violation of WP:ADDBIAS and I strongly recommend against proceeding with these actions or I will contact an administrator. OrcaLord (talk) 23:38, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, administrator here. Reign in the hostility and speculating on other editors' motives. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Sorry about sounding hostile. I just feel that we should discuss things on here first before we make any deletions. I am always open to conversations on how to best handle the page and I mean no harm and have never intended for this to turn into an edit war. OrcaLord (talk) 02:15, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you for the reminder of the need for civility, @ScottishFinnishRadish:
- Sorry about sounding hostile. I just feel that we should discuss things on here first before we make any deletions. I am always open to conversations on how to best handle the page and I mean no harm and have never intended for this to turn into an edit war. OrcaLord (talk) 02:15, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Hi, administrator here. Reign in the hostility and speculating on other editors' motives. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:44, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I want to emphasize that my goal is not “negative” or “positive” information. My goal is to ensure that information is accurate and neutral point of view. I note that you share your political affiliation on your profile page (my vote in the primary was for Warren, if you were curious) and perhaps that shades your view but I don’t want to turn this into a battleground. Also, I'll note that by bringing this question to the talk page rather than WP:JUSTDOIT, I was in fact trying to open a discussion.
- Back to the topic of discussion (Sinema), I continue to believe a throwaway comment from a longer interview where she was pressed for a response is not WP:DUE. Although it seems at least one other editor agrees, I'll hold off on making the edit for now in the interest of collaboration and seeing if there’s more input. Tagging @Firefangledfeathers, Elli, Burger1018, and Cpotisch: who have recently engaged in other discussions on this page for potential input. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 04:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- Given the contentiousness of the article, I’m going to remove this until there’s consensus for inclusion. Also worth noting that OrcaLord is part of the same cohort of anti-Slotkin Twitter users who originally resulted in the page getting ECP. Cpotisch (talk) 09:29, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
Moving in district
I made this edit but it was reverted. Bringing to the talk page because the current wording is, I believe, goes into far more detail than appropriate about what is a relatively mundane action by a candidate for office. As far as I can tell, the summary of the story is that she rented a property from a donor so that she could campaign in the district then moved back to her primary residence following the election in preparation for a statewide campaign. I'm not sure why we need to go into more detail unless the point is to present a non-NPOV suggestion that there was something untoward about her actions (which would create BLP issues and is not in the citations provided). Would love input from other editors here to find a consensus. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 10:28, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I think this content is fine as is. It just summarizes what the WP:RS says and doesn't make any original points or insinuations. Marquardtika (talk) 14:15, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Is there a source that reports in its own voice that Slotkin leased the Lansing apartment "in order to establish residency in the new district"? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:12, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I can't find one. Looking back at the page's edit history, it looks like this content was first added here (by an indefinitely banned account, FWIW). I think with the MLive and Detroit News stories about the property rental it's worth including, but we obviously need to make sure any content is reflecting the sources and not adding in anything original or biased. Marquardtika (talk) 01:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- I couldn't either. I removed the unsourced bit and added a denial of wrongdoing from Slotkin and the landlord. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:23, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- I can't find one. Looking back at the page's edit history, it looks like this content was first added here (by an indefinitely banned account, FWIW). I think with the MLive and Detroit News stories about the property rental it's worth including, but we obviously need to make sure any content is reflecting the sources and not adding in anything original or biased. Marquardtika (talk) 01:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
The following line appears int he article:
According to Lansing newspaper City Pulse, "The bill was specifically targeting the rainbow flag, not Confederate flags."
I don't believe that a "free, alternative weekly newspaper" founded by a journalist who is not notable enough to merit his own Wikipedia page, which seems to derive most of its (dubious) notability from an article about giving out free joints to celebrate the state's legalization of recreational marijuana is a WP:RS to describe the contents of a Congressional bill. Even if a reliable source could be found, this section of the article is already excessive and seems to be undue weight in my opinion. Would appreciate thoughts from other editors here before I prune it as part of my efforts to bring this article to a more neutral point of view rather than a smorgasbord of non-notable tidbits about the congresswoman.
@Firefangledfeathers, Muboshgu, Andrevan, Binksternet, OrcaLor, Elli, Cpotisch, Burger1018, and Cullen328: Tagging all of you as editors who have previously engaged on this talk page that I'd appreciate learned input from, both on this particular point and the discussions above. Thanks! Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 10:42, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the tag. Will do some looking into City Pulse and this issue. Off the top of my head it seems like it got a lot of attention and is probably notable enough for inclusion (unlike some of the other controversial additions that I opposed) but will have to look more before leaning one way or the other. Cpotisch (talk) 10:55, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate it. In terms of the section about the vote, I do question its inclusion overall as a minor vote in one congress, but if it is being included, I think that any discussion of the underlying bill should come from an actual RS rather than elevating a little alternative weekly's POV so prominently.
- Would also appreciate you (and the others') eyes on the other conversations I've started on this page. (Refrained from tagging multiple times so as to not spam! 😀) Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agree that the vote merits inclusion, but also that City Pulse is not the best source to use here. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- I briefly looked around for a source that can reputably claim that Slotkin's vote was about Pride flags, but couldn't find one saying that specifically. The vote should stay included, but this source should be removed. It's conjecture that doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Burger1018 (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you all. I've gone ahead and removed the City Pulse portion of this. Language could probably be tightened up a bit still. Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) 04:53, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
- I briefly looked around for a source that can reputably claim that Slotkin's vote was about Pride flags, but couldn't find one saying that specifically. The vote should stay included, but this source should be removed. It's conjecture that doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Burger1018 (talk) 20:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Agree that the vote merits inclusion, but also that City Pulse is not the best source to use here. Elli (talk | contribs) 16:02, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
- Would also appreciate you (and the others') eyes on the other conversations I've started on this page. (Refrained from tagging multiple times so as to not spam! 😀) Dcpoliticaljunkie (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 11:20, 29 August 2023 (UTC)