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== Xenophobia == |
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I think this article should mention the extreme xenophobic feelings of the British populace in general towards Portugal, and the Portuguese. The xenophobic tone is evident in a lot of what was said then about Portugal and its legal system, a lot of it clearly untrue and/or unfounded, based on anecdotic accounts, and most sadly , proving to us all what the Brits think about the Portuguese - with whom they actually have the longest standing alliance. There was also a smear of arrogance in the whole case. I think this is an important fact that should be acknowledged <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/193.136.74.103|193.136.74.103]] ([[User talk:193.136.74.103|talk]]) 19:40, 26 February 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> |
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:: In fact in the wikipedia article Lusophobia this is mentioned. But perhaps it should be mentioned here.--[[Special:Contributions/195.23.93.229|195.23.93.229]] ([[User talk:195.23.93.229|talk]]) 09:25, 28 February 2009 (UTC) |
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== McCanns visit to Brussels == |
== McCanns visit to Brussels == |
Revision as of 11:30, 28 February 2009
Disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been listed as one of the Social sciences and society good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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McCanns visit to Brussels
I have removed, for the moment, "Two days later UK media reported that the Mccanns were on a high profile mission to Brussels to "pursuade MEPs to introduce an EU wide child abduction alert system" in an effort to spin headlines off the Portugese police requests.[1]" because I am not sure that the McCanns' activities which are not related to the Disappearance are sufficiently relevant to this article. May I have opinions, please? TerriersFan (talk) 00:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Just a further thought, the McCanns are going to get increasingly involved in their initiative on missing children in general and I am sure that there will be many more reports of their activities in this regard. I think that this initiative is being sufficiently reliably reported to be notable. Possibly it should be the subject of a separate article? There are many Ghits for Child abduction alert system, certainly enough for a page that could also link to AMBER Alert. A couple of recent links are here and here. I am not volunteering to write it, but I think its a runner if someone is interested. TerriersFan (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hey, hum, call me a pushover if you like but I have created page. TerriersFan (talk) 23:05, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Edit by User:Haudcivitas
I should like to explain my reversion of the edit by User:Haudcivitas so that other editors can take a view. Essentially his/her addition has four parts:
- McCanns being asked to go back for a reconstruction - already in the article, lower down.
- McCanns feelings - attributed to an unnamed friend and therefore unreliable.
- McCanns refusing to go back - not what the current sources say - the sources say that they haven't decided.
- Brussels trip - I have an open mind as explained in detail above. TerriersFan (talk) 01:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I agree. They are POV and poorly sourced. The SKY news article used as a ref makes no mention of "spinning". That is entirely the editor's POV. HtD (talk) 08:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you for picking this up; I had a heavy cold last night and wasn't as sharp as I could have been. TerriersFan (talk) 21:55, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
The Mccanns make all their "statements" in this way, are they to be protected from analysis for that? The Mccanns have NOT gone back and here is a link which will show you that the Mccanns have officically refused to go back voluntarily as suspects (as if you didn't know already) [2]. You are anything but open minded and no doubt have been a charity fund contributor at some point. Or otherwise caught up in the professional spin of millions of pounds. HC.
- You are misdirecting yourself if you believe that bad editing and characterisations, such as above and here, are likely to advance your case or win others round to your viewpoint. It is inaccurate to claim that the McCanns have refused to go back; all that the Fox source does is offer the unattributed views of 'friends'. Neither the views of friends nor the feelings of the McCanns can be included without a direct attribution. TerriersFan (talk) 03:26, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
- "The Mccanns make all their "statements" in this way..."
Madeleine crying
This is news: "While we were having breakfast, Madeleine said: 'Mum, why didn't you come when we were crying last night?'," she said.
"Rachael Oldfield, had been in the adjoining flat - on the other side of Madeleine's wall - all evening and heard no crying." I bet the Spanish private detectives heard this for the first time from the Spanish TV. And any of the Oldfield heard nothing when she disappeared?? How thick must the walls be. The upstairs neighbour, an old lady, heard her crying.[1]
Metodo 3 allegations
I have removed the allegations about the Metodo 3 detectives because they are unrelated to either the disappearance itself or to their investigation of other child disappearances. HtD (talk) 19:01, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
the website latest blog
The mcanns are speaking about madeline in the past tense "she WAS a lovely girl..." not IS. It is worth pointing out and putting it in. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.103.113.58 (talk) 20:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
- Can you paste a link to that page on the blog please? I can't find it. HtD (talk) 08:33, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Article too long
Hi. I just tagged this article as being too long. It's over 100k and it's making edits, such as for cleaning up vandalism, load slowly. I pity anyone trying to load the page on dialup! I'm not a regular editor on this article, but is there a way we can trim this up or should it simply be split into sub-articles? —Ashanda (talk) 19:45, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed the tag. One of the reasons it's so long is are the notes. We have tried to deal with that in the past by having a scrolling reflist, but this was vetoed by general WP consensus. This is a very complicated BLP that has already been split once. The detail is needed, and because there are so many individuals, there is a lot of it. Again, for BLP reasons it shouldn't be split, because it's important to have the whole context in one place. There are many longer articles on WP, and length is not a constraint as we are not a paper encyclopaedia. Harry the Dog WOOF 19:51, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have given thought from time to time on this. All the content is fully sourced and every sentence has been reviewed for accuracy and relevance, by multiple editors. Identifying sections for breakout is hampered by the article being highly factual, with most of the content relevant to the story and with little padding. However, we can start to make some thinning by moving the Confirmed sightings on 3 May and Reported sightings sections to a new page, Sightings following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, leaving a reasonable summary in the main article. Indeed, the muse has just moved so I will create a user space version for consideration! TerriersFan (talk) 14:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- That was the one section I felt could be moved as well. Since all the sightings have been false alarms, while it is important to record that they happened, it doesn't need to be in the main article. Harry the Dog WOOF 15:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Though we assume the sightings were false alarms, and they probably were, several of them have not been explicitly discounted. I will distinguish between these in the draft article and post here when I think it is ready for prime time! TerriersFan (talk) 15:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- True. I guess what I meant is that they haven't led to a resolution of the case. Harry the Dog WOOF 16:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- OK, the initial draft is ready at User:TerriersFan/Sightings following the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Now we have space, there is sourced analysis that can be added, as well as distinguishing between the discounted and undiscounted sightings, but this makes a start. I should like agreement to carry out the split, please. TerriersFan (talk) 17:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- That looks fine. I say go ahead. Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ditto. Harry the Dog WOOF 18:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- Done; saving 15.4Kb. TerriersFan (talk) 19:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits
The edits today have been a bit confusing. On the one hand we have the removal of remarks made by Pamela Fenn. This I agree with, as the reference no longer appears on the Daily Express website and cannot be verified. I'm not even sure the Express was a reliable source to begin with. On the other, there's extra wording added into the section of the leaking of interviews. The addition "that statement would have come from the Portugese police" does not appear in the BBC reference and sounds like POV. I think the original wording was better. Pawnkingthree (talk) 12:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
- I see that the addition you were concerned with was, rightly in my view, reverted by HTDD and it should stay out. I have researched the Pamela Fenn remarks and found this. For this reason, it should also stay out. The question of the source being unavailable is, however, not a good reason for exclusion. References break all the time when sources take material off their websites and the Wikipedia practice is that we don't remove material for that reason. TerriersFan (talk) 20:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
End of investigation?
Newspapers are reporting that the police are to drop their investigation due to lack of evidence. Worth mentioning now, or should we wait for an official announcement? Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yet more unsourced spin and speculation... According to SKY the Portuguese Attorney General has now released a statement refuting these claims. Snowbunni (talk) 13:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- The submission of the final police report is now widely confirmed. However, no decision has been made on closing the case.[2] I have added this to the page. TerriersFan (talk) 16:11, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- From This BBC News Story - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7516585.stm "The police investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been shelved, Portugal's attorney general has said. The child's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, and a third British national, Robert Murat are no longer formal suspects he also confirmed." Should maybe make mention that the three are no longer suspects in the case. Malbolge (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 15:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I agree - editing now ... TerriersFan (talk) 16:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Book and report
About the book A verdade da mentira:[3] [4] [5]
Official police report published on a newspaper, by a named police inspector:
pg1[6]
pg2[7]
pg3[8]
pg4[9]
pg5[10]
pg6[11] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.227.226 (talk) 13:50, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Recent edits about Jeremy Wilkins
An anon editor has been persistently adding that Wilkins did not see the suspicious individual, citing the report. But on page 18 of the report it states that Wilkins "arfirmou ter visualizado un individuo com un comportamento e aspeto estranho..." Unless my Portuguese is rustier than I think it is, that says that Wilkins stated he saw an individual who looked strange and was behaving strangely. Is there anything else that I can't find in the report that supports what the anon editor wants to insert? Harry the Dog WOOF 12:31, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- On further reading of the report, I think the anon editor may be referring to page 55, which is based on the reconstruction, and which reports the police's speculation based on the reconstruction and not proven or admitted facts. Harry the Dog WOOF 12:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, good! Then the mistery is solved! "But on page 18 of the report it states that Wilkins "afirmou ter visualizado un individuo com un comportamento e aspeto estranho..."" Yes and what about the rest?
- "[…]JEREMY WILKINS, afirmou ter visualizado um indivíduo com um coportamento e aspecto estranho. Veio-se
- a verificar que era um hóspede, que inclusive participou nas buscas."Translation:
- Jeremy Wilkins stated he saw an individual looking and behaving in a strange way.
- We verified it was a guest, who also took part on the search.
- "A proximidade física, real e efectiva entre JANE TANNER, GERALD McCANN e JEREMYWILKINS, no momento em que a primeira passou
- por eles, e que coincidiu com o avistamento do suposto suspeito, transportando uma criança. Resulta,a nosso ver, inusitado que tanto GERALD McCANN como JEREMY WILKINS, não a terem visto, nem ao alegado raptor, apesar da exiguidade do espaço"
- “The, real and effective physical proximity between JANE TANNER, GERALD McCANN and JEREMY WILKINS, on the moment in which the first(Jane)passed by them and which coincided with the sighting of the alleged suspect, carrying a child. It follows, in our view, unusual that both GERALD McCANN as JEREMY WILKINS, did not see her, or the alleged kidnapper, despite the paucity of space.”
- You can call it rusty!! In the case you got confused, those are two different events. Wilkins saw that person on a different occasion, not when Tanner said she saw the alledged suspect.
89.180.164.172 (talk) 10:41, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- "It follows, in our view..." As I said, speculation, and therefore not encyclopedic. Harry the Dog WOOF 12:58, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
"It follows, in our view..." Do you have reading comprehension problems, or is another biased opinion of yours? The fact:GERALD McCANN as JEREMY WILKINS, did not see her, or the alleged kidnapper The speculation: none (no theories about why they did not see them) opinion:"unusual ....despite the paucity" About speculation... the entire wikipedia article of Madeleine Mccann is pure speculation, erase it then. It seems your English is also too rusty.89.181.79.236 (talk) 13:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Firstly, read WP:CIVIL. Secondly, the article is fine as it is. This is just another pointless argument about nothing, of which there have been many on this talk page. Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you Pawnkingthree. Resorting to abuse is the first sign that one is losing the argument. The police report contains speculation, and we do not deal in speculation, especially in a BLP. "In our view" indicates speculation, not fact. It is one explanation. By their own admission, the PJ are not able to solve this case, and this is just one theory about the movements on that evening. Harry the Dog WOOF 16:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- It was you who resorted to abuse calling my edit with a source vandalism. Where did I write "In our view" on the page? There was no mention to Pj's views. What theory are you talking about??? What you are saying is plain nonsense. And explanation to what????89.180.50.14 (talk) 10:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Explain where is the theory here: "although Gerald McCanne and Jeremy Wilkins were on that same road they did not see Jane Tanner or the man carrying a child." What you are saying is that the PJ came up with the theory that they did not see Jane or the suspect? Very clever observation.
- For one thing, it was unsourced the first time you added it. The words "in our view" our contained in the report that you are quoting as a source, meaning that it is the police's view, unproven and therefore speculation. Harry the Dog WOOF 12:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is the dumbest comment I ever heard. The source was already on the page, you do not have to repeat it all the time. The fact here is that Gerald McCanne and Jeremy Wilkins reported to the police that they did not see Tanner or the suspect. The PJ's opinion is not mentioned on the article, only what it was declared to the police. Are you going to erase all those opinions made by opinion makers you collected from the newspapers?89.180.128.102 (talk) 13:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- For one thing, it was unsourced the first time you added it. The words "in our view" our contained in the report that you are quoting as a source, meaning that it is the police's view, unproven and therefore speculation. Harry the Dog WOOF 12:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- It was you who resorted to abuse calling my edit with a source vandalism. Where did I write "In our view" on the page? There was no mention to Pj's views. What theory are you talking about??? What you are saying is plain nonsense. And explanation to what????89.180.50.14 (talk) 10:59, 3 August 2008 (UTC) Explain where is the theory here: "although Gerald McCanne and Jeremy Wilkins were on that same road they did not see Jane Tanner or the man carrying a child." What you are saying is that the PJ came up with the theory that they did not see Jane or the suspect? Very clever observation.
- Thank you Pawnkingthree. Resorting to abuse is the first sign that one is losing the argument. The police report contains speculation, and we do not deal in speculation, especially in a BLP. "In our view" indicates speculation, not fact. It is one explanation. By their own admission, the PJ are not able to solve this case, and this is just one theory about the movements on that evening. Harry the Dog WOOF 16:39, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- So what do the words "in our view" which are contained in the police report mean to you? (Direct quote: "It follows, in our view, unusual that both GERALD McCANN as JEREMY WILKINS, did not see her, or the alleged kidnapper, despite the paucity of space.") It is a conclusion that the police are drawing, not what Wilkins and McCann said. And no, you did not include the police report as a reference the first time you added this (and it would be good if you could spell people's names correctly too), you mentioned it but did not include the ref. This is silly, and I won't respond further given your tone, I will simply revert the addition if it is made again per WP:BLP and ask for semi-protection if you persist. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- It is a comment to their statement!!!It was not included in wikipedia but if I had written: " In the PJ´s opinion it was unusual that both GERALD McCANN as JEREMY WILKINS, did not see her, or the alleged kidnapper, despite the paucity of space." It would be perfectly correct. I decided to avoid the PJ opinion and relate only what they declared to the police. The source was already given. Someone decided to put it on the end of the article. Complain to him/her. As I understand you are defending that Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins saw the suspect, and Gerald did not recognise it was his own daughter being taken? It has a source, you can´t read portuguese, you asked for a translation and your revert is bad faith. You are making it silly. 89.180.57.44 (talk) 14:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- I am not defending anything. All we can go on are the statements made. The police's opinions on those statements are irrelevant. Opinion has no place in Wikipedia. Period. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Again, no opinion was included in the article. The statements made are that they did not see them. But you can follow your own advise and erase comments like the ones made by Mark Williams-Thomas, Professor David Barclay or anything refering to criticisms made. As you said: "Opinion has no place in Wikipedia. Period." Too silly.89.180.30.23 (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- So what do the words "in our view" which are contained in the police report mean to you? (Direct quote: "It follows, in our view, unusual that both GERALD McCANN as JEREMY WILKINS, did not see her, or the alleged kidnapper, despite the paucity of space.") It is a conclusion that the police are drawing, not what Wilkins and McCann said. And no, you did not include the police report as a reference the first time you added this (and it would be good if you could spell people's names correctly too), you mentioned it but did not include the ref. This is silly, and I won't respond further given your tone, I will simply revert the addition if it is made again per WP:BLP and ask for semi-protection if you persist. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:34, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- If you are going to be abusive, have the courage to create an account so that you can be held accountable for your actions. Otherwise, if this continues, I will ask for your IP range to be blocked. I have said why this does not belong in the article, you have responded with abuse rather than solid arguments, so as I say, I will continue to revert per WP:BLP, and any more abuse and you will be reported to admins.Harry the Dog WOOF 14:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- The abuse is yours. You started calling my edit vandalism, then said I gave no sources, said that I included comments although there would be nothing against it, now you make threats. Even worst, it looks you are implying that Gerald McCann and Jeremy Wilkins did not make that statement and it is all just PJ´s opinion. And there is nothing that goes against WP:BLP,it came out in several newspapers, so it is public. 89.180.215.141 (talk) 23:48, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- If you are going to be abusive, have the courage to create an account so that you can be held accountable for your actions. Otherwise, if this continues, I will ask for your IP range to be blocked. I have said why this does not belong in the article, you have responded with abuse rather than solid arguments, so as I say, I will continue to revert per WP:BLP, and any more abuse and you will be reported to admins.Harry the Dog WOOF 14:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Where is the reference in this edit? Certainly not next to the material added. Adding unsourced material to a BLP is vandalism. What I am looking for is the source for the statement "although Gerald McCanne (sic) and Jeremy Wilkins were on that same road they did not see Jane Tanner or the man carrying a child." If you can point to where in the police report it says that, fine. But what we have been discussing so far is the police's comments calling into question the fact that they did not see her or the man with the child, which is speculation on behalf of the police. Harry the Dog WOOF 08:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Again you are accusing me of vandalism and of not giving sources, check the External links some editor decided it was the best place to keep it, it is only needed to mention it once. You are acusing the PJ of speculation and of having the "opinion" that they did not see Jane or the suspect,"By their own admission, the PJ are not able to solve this case, and this is just one theory about the movements on that evening." This is a very serious accusation. What can be or not be made public was already officially discussed so there is no WP:BLP arguments involving Madeleine McCann: "Police discuss what evidence will be made public"[12]. And if PJ was "not able to solve this case" they had great help :"DNA error by British experts led to McCanns being accused, leaked report claims" [13]. Note: "From today officials from the public prosecutor's office in the Algarve town of Portimao will copy the documents on to DVDs for reporters who have requested them. [14]
- Where is the reference in this edit? Certainly not next to the material added. Adding unsourced material to a BLP is vandalism. What I am looking for is the source for the statement "although Gerald McCanne (sic) and Jeremy Wilkins were on that same road they did not see Jane Tanner or the man carrying a child." If you can point to where in the police report it says that, fine. But what we have been discussing so far is the police's comments calling into question the fact that they did not see her or the man with the child, which is speculation on behalf of the police. Harry the Dog WOOF 08:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
89.180.137.184 (talk) 13:32, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, in a BLP, when you add material, you need to give a reference for each claim or series of claims. Not to do so can be considered vandalism. What I want to see is a footnote leading directly to the reference in which the statement that is being made can be supported. Look at all the other statements that are made, and you will see that this is how it's done, even if it means referring to the same source several times. Now, I have been more than patient with you despite your abuse. Any more of it, and you will be reported to the admins. I will no longer continue this. I will simply remove any statement that is not sourced properly. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just pin point where it says "you need to give a reference for each claim or series of claims" on the BLP, also clarify whose biography is it from : of Wilkins, Jane, Gerald or of someone called "Disappearance". The two times the references were taken from the page: [15][16] You had no difficulty finding the source, you clearly identified the two paragraphs and you clearly misinterpreted both paragraphs. It is not private information as it was made officially public. So, revert my paragraph, put the references wherever and stop the nonsense because you are really showing bad faith and you also pretend you understand a language which you clearly show you have big difficulties.89.181.69.218 (talk) 13:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, in a BLP, when you add material, you need to give a reference for each claim or series of claims. Not to do so can be considered vandalism. What I want to see is a footnote leading directly to the reference in which the statement that is being made can be supported. Look at all the other statements that are made, and you will see that this is how it's done, even if it means referring to the same source several times. Now, I have been more than patient with you despite your abuse. Any more of it, and you will be reported to the admins. I will no longer continue this. I will simply remove any statement that is not sourced properly. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:52, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- WP:BLP. Unsourced material is to be removed immediately. Now your turn. On which page of the report does it say (in Portuguese of course) the exact words "although Gerald McCanne (sic) and Jeremy Wilkins were on that same road they did not see Jane Tanner or the man carrying a child." Page number please for ease of reference. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
Read it your self!"Referring to other editors' good-faith changes as vandalism" The article is not fine, is full of nonsense gossip. A well sourced entry, from the police report, was erased, my edit called vandalism, and you want to distort the information and discard it. It is sourced, so it stays.89.181.35.196 (talk) 14:32, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Amaral book
From my talk page: "we dont recite unproven allegations sourced or not? well the article sources a newspaper saying " And one of the McCanns' two Portuguese lawyers, Carlos Pinto Abreu, told Lisbon radio station TSF that Mr Amaral's comments were "in very poor taste" and "unhelpful to the investigation".
"The British police have only been working on that which the McCann couple want them to and which is most convenient for them," he said.
"The have only investigated tips and information developed and worked on for the McCanns, forgetting that the couple are formal suspects in the death of their daughter Madeleine.".
This was denied by Mr Amaral, so the article sources unproven allegations.Also i believe that the article on his book is interesting regarding the whole story about madelaine.Erasing it is pure vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.154.215.29 (talk) 03:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC) "
- The publication of the book is included in the Response sub-article. However, the addition that I reverted, that can be found here, recites unproven allegations against the McCanns. Even though they are attributed to Amaral, in my view including them presents a defamation risk and a breach of BLP. I am putting the discussion here to collect alternative views. TerriersFan (talk) 14:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, as my reverting of the same material when it was re-inserted indicates. People can think what they like, but unless it is proven or admitted, it should not be included in a BLP. Harry the Dog WOOF
Incompetence of the Portuguese police
I think the criticism of the Police section needs to be expanded. As more is revealed from the files, the more their incompetence is exposed, e.g. not following up leads or issuing the photofits of suspects. Maybe this is a Portuguese thing, something to do with their laws and procedures, but either way I wouldn't want to be a crime victim in Portugal. 212.159.92.22 (talk) 13:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Backstory
This article reads in its utter naivete as if there had never been any other child abduction in Europe, never any Dutroux case in Belgium, never any snuff movies filmed in Amsterdam, never any sale by Russian criminals of street children to paying Westerners. And most important, never any collusion by media plus police plus judiciary in covering for child-abusing power elites in USA (Pagegate), Belgium (Dutroux) or Portugal (the Casa Pia case). That is why I have now cited the Daily Mail article of 10-2007. Readers can then better judge in what sort of legislature McCann was abducted. Jacques Roux (talk) 18:22, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
- None of these are relevant to this article which is based on a specific case. If you wish to write a general article called Child abduction in Europe, feel free. The Daily Mail article has failed to establish any link with the Madeleine case; it is pure speculation. However, it is probably worth a brief mention so I will move it to the Response page. TerriersFan (talk) 18:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Tapas Seven libel settlement
The Tapas Seven libel settlement is covered in detail in Response to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann#Libel actions and summarised at Disappearance of Madeleine McCann#Response to the disappearance. I recommend that, for consistency, it is not also included in the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann#Friends section since the McCanns' and Murat' awards are also dealt with in this manner. TerriersFan (talk) 00:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
Possible ownership issues in non-standard intro
The intro to this article contains a number of oddities. It introduces "Madeleine McCann", a non-notable child, without describing who she is/was. It boldfaces a past-tense phrase, perhaps the only article on Wikipedia to do so; and generic article titles do not require boldface repetition in the intro. And it is poorly written; the first sentence contains multiple fragments; "disappeared" is used twice; yards are used as the primary measurement; and is a fairly poor summary of the case (it could easily include the information that the parents were suspected, or that no charges have been brought).
As I have discovered, any attempt to improve and Wikify this paragraph is inevitably reverted wholesale, with the comment that this is a "consensus" formulation. This is nonsense; there was little discussion of the phrasing of the introductory paragraph in the archive, and no vote or similar has ever taken place. ProhibitOnions (T) 11:33, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- We don't "vote" on Wikipedia; we form consensus. And if you look carefully at the archives there is extensive discussion both on the nature of the article (it is about the event, not the person) and therefore the way the intro should thus be formulated. So it is not "nonsense", and to suggest so assumes bad faith. It has been tweaked several times. What I suggest is that you bring your proposed wording here first for discussion. Harry the Dog WOOF 13:12, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- See above. ProhibitOnions (T) 14:01, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if you could paste your proposed version here so people could comment on it. The bolding issue has been commented on extensively and the current version is the consensus. As for other possible changes (like metres first) I can see merit in that, but other might wish to comment, and it would help them to see the proposed text here. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:08, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
- Posting a revised formulation here seems a very good way forward indeed. There is a great deal of discussion about bolding the lead in the archives. Initially it was bolded but then I, amongst others, removed the bolding since, as you say, bolding is not required on generic titles. I therefore prefer ProhibitOnions's wording. However, the removal of the bolding resulted in continual drive-past bolding by other editors. The present formulation was agreed as a compromise after a fairly fraught discussion. If ProhibitOnions considers that reopening this question is worthwhile I will support him but I think that we have more pressing issues to resolve on Wikipedia. The question of metres or yards or both and in which order has also been discussed. Frankly, I am not bothered about the units except a) the units must be consistent throughout the page; b) it must be agreed first to avoid another sad dispute. A final thought; the summary of the case is the intro paras taken together. The parents as suspects/cleared is clearly stated in the third para. HTH. TerriersFan (talk) 22:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Here is the 3 February revision proposed by User:ProhibitOnions:
Madeleine McCann, a British girl, went missing on the evening of Thursday, 3 May 2007 from the resort of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve region of Portugal, a few days before her fourth birthday. She was on holiday with her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, and siblings when she disappeared from an apartment in the central area of the resort. Madeleine's parents have said that they left her unsupervised in a ground floor bedroom with her two-year-old twin siblings while they ate at a restaurant about 130 yards (120 metres) away.
To which I would suggest some minor changes:
Madeleine McCann, a British girl, went missing a few days before her fourth birthday while on holiday with her parents and twin siblings in the Algarve region of Portugal. She disappeared from an apartment in the central area of the resort of Praia da Luz on the evening of Thursday, 3 May 2007. Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have said that they left the children unsupervised in a ground floor bedroom while they ate at a restaurant about 130 yards (120 metres) away. - Rothorpe (talk) 23:26, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This is the present text for ease of comparison:
Madeleine McCann disappeared on the evening of Thursday, 3 May 2007 from the resort of Praia da Luz, in the Algarve region of Portugal, a few days before her fourth birthday, and is still missing. The British girl was on holiday with her parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, and siblings when she disappeared from an apartment in the central area of the resort. Madeleine's parents have said that they left her unsupervised in a ground floor bedroom with her two-year-old twin siblings while they ate at a restaurant about 130 yards (120 metres) away.[3]TerriersFan (talk) 00:05, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I Have a couple of issues with Rothorpe's draft. I prefer the initial sentence to include the date with the birthday later. Also, neither version mentions that she is still missing which I think is an important fact. This is my version to deal with these matters:
- Madeleine McCann, a British girl, went missing on the evening of Thursday, 3 May 2007 while on holiday with her parents and twin siblings in the Algarve region of Portugal. She disappeared from an apartment, in the central area of the resort of Praia da Luz, a few days before her fourth birthday, and is still missing. Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have said that they left the children unsupervised in a ground floor bedroom while they ate at a restaurant about 130 yards (120 metres) away. TerriersFan (talk) 02:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Having offered a draft let me add a caveat. What happened last time was:
- We decided to remove the bolding.
- We agreed a wording.
- Editors who are accustomed to bolded leads would bold the lead.
- One of us would revert the bolding citing consensus.
- After a number of such reversions an editor came along and said that because of the number of reversions we no longer had a consensus and it all got fraught.
- We agreed the compromise.
- This compromise has held for several months. Unless we want to go through the above steps all over again, my view is that we should leave well alone. TerriersFan (talk) 02:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- That is my feeling as well. I recognise that the intro is non-standard, but we should avoid the bolding-unbolding issues of the past. I do feel that since it is an article about the disappearance, that word should lead the article. I think her nationality is really secondary to the event, and can be included further down. My suggestion:
- Madeleine McCann disappeared on the evening of Thursday, 3 May 2007 while on holiday with her parents and twin siblings in the Algarve region of Portugal. The British girl went missing from an apartment, in the central area of the resort of Praia da Luz, a few days before her fourth birthday. She is still missing. Madeleine's parents, Kate and Gerry McCann, have said that they left the children unsupervised in a ground floor bedroom while they ate at a restaurant about 130 yards (120 metres) away.
- Harry the Dog WOOF 11:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- If we lose the comma after apartment we have to lose the one after Luz, as they are parenthetical commas. The phrase does not need to be parenthetical however. Harry the Dog WOOF 15:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I am happy to go with Harry's wording. My reading of the commas is that they mark a descriptive clause that can be removed whilst leaving the sentence making sense. TerriersFan (talk) 04:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I have added the revised text but the sentence 'She is still missing' doesn't feel right since we also use 'missing' in the previous sentence. Would 'She has not been found' sound better? TerriersFan (talk) 04:43, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- Fine. Harry the Dog WOOF 08:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- ^ http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1312386,00.html
- ^ http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,347889,00.html
- ^ Cite error: The named reference
120m
was invoked but never defined (see the help page).