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***As I learned yesterday, nobody calls this "Mt. Denali" or "Mount Denali" (aside from those 31k hits, I guess). It's just "Denali", which makes your response wrong. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
***As I learned yesterday, nobody calls this "Mt. Denali" or "Mount Denali" (aside from those 31k hits, I guess). It's just "Denali", which makes your response wrong. – [[User:Muboshgu|Muboshgu]] ([[User talk:Muboshgu#top|talk]]) 17:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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*This issue is not completely uncomplicated, but Alaska has requested that Denali be the official federal name (matching their name) for 40 years, see [[Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute]], and according to the largest Alaskan newspaper, it has "long been known to Alaskans as Denali," [http://www.adn.com/article/20150830/mckinley-no-more-americas-tallest-peak-be-renamed-denali]. Republicans in Alaska support the name change, so there's no risk of it changing back.--'''[[User:Milowent|Milowent]]''' • <small><sup style="position:relative">[[Special:Contributions/Milowent|has]]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">[[User talk:Milowent|spoken]]</span></sup></small> 17:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
*This issue is not completely uncomplicated, but Alaska has requested that Denali be the official federal name (matching their name) for 40 years, see [[Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute]], and according to the largest Alaskan newspaper, it has "long been known to Alaskans as Denali," [http://www.adn.com/article/20150830/mckinley-no-more-americas-tallest-peak-be-renamed-denali]. Republicans in Alaska support the name change, so there's no risk of it changing back.--'''[[User:Milowent|Milowent]]''' • <small><sup style="position:relative">[[Special:Contributions/Milowent|has]]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-3.2ex;*left:-5.5ex;">[[User talk:Milowent|spoken]]</span></sup></small> 17:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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::[[WP:COMMONNAME]] states that in the event of a name change, more weight should be given to sources that came out after the change than before. Though it's only been one day, it appears the sources clearly favor "Denali".--[[User:Cuchullain|Cúchullain]] [[User talk:Cuchullain|<sup>t</sup>]]/[[Special:Contributions/Cuchullain|<small>c</small>]] 17:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2015 == |
== Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2015 == |
Revision as of 17:41, 31 August 2015
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Quarter
Perhaps this should be mentioned? I am looking at a 2012 US 25 cent coin, which opposite some old dead guy has an engraving of this mountain, with inscriptions at the circumference of "Denali" at the top, "Alaska" around 8 o'clock, and "E Pluribus Unum" around 4 o'clock. Yes, it should be in the article. I'll look for an image. Huw Powell (talk) 04:16, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- Perhaps it should be mentioned in Denali National Park and Preserve instead? HueSatLum 22:26, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, I don't see the fact that Mount McKinley appeared on the Denali National Park Quarter as being especially noteworthy. 137.54.17.183 (talk) 23:48, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
East ascent
Dear Editors;
The "Timeline" section of the Wikipedia article about Mt. McKinley omits reference to the first ascent of the East side of the peak via the difficult Southeast Spur. This ascent is reported in an article by Boyd J.Everett, Jr. in the American Alpine Journal 13, no. 2, page 381, 1963, in an article by Christopher Wren in Look Magazine vol 26 no. 21,page 69, (October 9, 1962), in an article by Samuel C. Silverstein in the Mountain World 1962/63 pages 149-160, and constitutes a full chapter (Chapter 14, pages 179-186) of Fred Becky's book Mount McKinley. The prominence of the magazines, journals, and books in which this article was reported indicate the high level of alpinism demonstrated by the members of the team that made this first ascent. I believe this noteworthy first ascent of Mt. McKinley via its eastern side should be recognized in the "Timeline" section, along with the first ascents of the peak from the north, west, and south. Thank you for your consideration.
Yours sincerely,
Samuel C. Silverstein, M.D. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamSilvers (talk • contribs) 03:54, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
Elevation
The new, lower figure for McKinley's elevation has gotten a lot of press, but I don't think it is the "official" elevation of McKinley yet as far as the USGS is concerned. At least as of today, the USGS’s National Map website says with regard to McKinley’s elevation that “While the DEM produced from the raw IFSAR data shows a somewhat significant drop in elevation from the 1952 survey, the USGS takes no position in favor of either elevation.” So for us to say that the USGS has "accepted" the new figure is a little misleading. 206.208.105.129 (talk) 15:03, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Source Issue
- At the bottom of this section of this article [1] I provided a source (#30) that has been allowed to stand since late 2013. It is this [2]
The source was removed today by this user [3], because I linked to this Denali article at an article on [Tina Sjogren] yesterday, under the Controversy section. The user 97198 [4] is clearly biased -- the user removed the source because of having bias for Tina Sjorgen. Again, the source has been allowed to stand at this Denali article since 2013. While blogs are typically not considered reliable sources, as is evident the report at the blog is reliable journalism.
- I will in the meantime add another source[5] where the report is linked to. Everestrecords (talk) 15:33, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
- User MONGO has done unilateral edits without taking part in this discussion in the Talk page. I removed the blog source, and replaced it with a well established Everest historian's website, who published an article about speedclimbing records on Everest. The source qualifies as reliable. I will begin a dispute resolution request if the user MONGO persists.Everestrecords (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- There isn't anything to dispute since your additions and references are not reliable sources. Self published websites are not peer reviewed and are not reliable. I'll clean up the rest of the article tomorrow.--MONGO 05:26, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- The source is from Collin Wallace, an Everest historian. This is the About section of his website [6] He has on his own accord published the article on Everest speedclimbing on his website Articles section [7]. It's the first article at the top. This is a reliable source. It is not "self published". Everestrecords (talk) 05:34, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- User MONGO has done unilateral edits without taking part in this discussion in the Talk page. I removed the blog source, and replaced it with a well established Everest historian's website, who published an article about speedclimbing records on Everest. The source qualifies as reliable. I will begin a dispute resolution request if the user MONGO persists.Everestrecords (talk) 04:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- That is a self published website.--MONGO 05:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Please help. User Mongo MONGO has been staking me around wikipedia over the last day, on the 3 different articles I've been trying to add to. Please help with asking he/she to discontinue stalking me. Demonstrates inappropriate interest in what I'm doing. Also, I'm using a source from England, Collin Wallace's Everest history and Everest news website.
http://www.everest1953.co.uk/about-us.html http://www.everest1953.co.uk/articles.html and this in particular http://www.everest1953.co.uk/speed-climbing-records.html The source is well established and well respected. Also, many news sources are self published, such as Explorers Web, which is published by 1 person, Tina Sjorgen.Everestrecords (talk) 06:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- Don't forget to tell the admins about how you consider me to be mentally ill, etc. as you posted at my user page.--MONGO 06:14, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- This is clearly an issue that should either be resolved between the editors, and if it can't, be taken to the dispute resolution process. I'm not going to get involved, but at first glance, it seems pretty obvious that the source being used here is not a reliable source and seems to have serious COI/POV problems given your apparent affiliation with the website. I'll close the helpme-tag. I'll leave the admin tag in place for an admin to deal with. ~ | twsx | talkcont | ~ 07:28, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
- I see neither "staking" nor "stalking" by MONGO. I do, however see edit-warring, persistent use of unreliable sources, grossly unacceptable personal attacks, and other disruptive editing from Everestrecords. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 08:48, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Factual error on "base-to-peak rise"
The current article quotes a base-to-summit rise of 5500 meters and claims this is the largest in the world, citing an erroneous statement by Helman 2005. To get even 5000 meters, you have to go far enough out on the tundra (more than 25km from the North Summit) that you're hardly "on the mountain", but more importantly, Rakaposhi rises 5900 meters above the Hunza River in 11km horizontal. There is no question that this is bigger than Denali and the Rakaposhi article says as much. Would the primary authors of this page prefer the statement removed completely or toned down to "one of the biggest"? In the latter case, Helman cannot be cited without a caveat explaining that part of his statement is incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JedKBrown (talk • contribs) 05:10, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
User:MONGO Before reverting my change, can we please discuss it here? Helman's book is not peer-reviewed either and it's very clear from any map that the claim is erroneous. Let's not perpetuate factually inaccurate information simply because it found its way into a book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JedKBrown (talk • contribs) 00:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- Helman's book is a published source....do you have a published source to support your claim? I don't know if Helman is right or not but I have seen the same figures in other published sources. We only write what we can based on reliable sources.--MONGO 01:02, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
User:MONGO, what is your favorite map? Because all modern maps, Google Earth, and satellite DEMs agree that the Hunza River 11 km north of Rakaposhi is at an elevation of 1890 meters (36°14'37" N, 74°29'25" E) while the summit is 7786 meters. I've stood there and ground-truthed it on my way further up the Hunza. If you'd prefer words instead of data, John Cleare, "The World Guide to Mountains and Mountaineering", 1979, p161: "Nearly 19,000ft (5,800m) above the Hunza River stands the bastion of Rakaposhi." This figure is about 100 m shy of reality, presumably due to old/inaccurate data. Are these sources sufficient to reinstate my change or otherwise correct the article? JedKBrown (talk) 06:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- We use only written published sources. One example I found in a few seconds was this one which states twice that McKinley is the tallest above its base. You may be confusing base for something else. A gorge 11 km away may not geologically speaking be the base of a peak. We can work on rephrasing and I am not opposed to wording that McKinley is one of the tallest peaks in the world above its base but however we word it, that must be referenced to a reliable source. Allow me a few days to look for more definitive answers.--MONGO 07:44, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- @JedKBrown: can we find more than one written reference that supports the issue of Rakaposhi? I'll look some more because it would be nice to get this sorted out.--MONGO 00:27, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- @MONGO: "There is no precise definition of surrounding base" (from Mountain). To get 5500 meters for Denali, you have to place the "base" out on the tundra beyond the foothills and 30 km from the summit. This is a very generous definition and Nanga Parbat has a more continuous grade for 6400 m in less horizontal. I used Rakaposhi instead of Nanga Parbat (both of which are the tallest in their vicinity) as a counter-point because it is a steeper grade and indisputably continuous from summit to river. As for printed sources, it is very clear that the books repeating the misconception about Denali are not using the terms precisely and are not peer reviewed (and peer review can miss a lot). As someone that grew up in Alaska, I've heard the statement repeated many times, but repeating it doesn't make it true. We're proud of our big mountain, but these people and the authors in question are not quantitatively comparing it to the likes of Rakaposhi and Nanga Parbat. In lieu of scholarly work with precise definitions, I think maps are the best source. (I don't see how the veracity of maps are affected by printing on paper, but there are many printed maps, any of which will confirm my statements.) I can look for other books that mention Rakaposhi or Nanga Parbat, but facts are not democratically elected and if Wikipedia is interested in facts, looking at a map will remove any doubt in this matter. JedKBrown (talk) 05:06, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- @MONGO: Page 47 of Gritzner's book says "This spectacular peak rises 20320 feet (6194 meters) above the surrounding plains, which are near sea level. No mountain in the world can match its vertical rise from base to peak in such a close horizontal distance." This is unambiguously erroneous because (a) the rivers even 50km away are at 500 meters, so quoting the full height of the mountain is imprecise, and (b) Nanga Parbat's 6400 meter rise is greater than the entire elevation of Mt McKinley in less than 25 km horizontal with no intermediate foothills. I have emailed the author in hopes that he will acknowledge the errata. I also attempted to write Helman some weeks ago, but he has not replied. JedKBrown (talk) 05:48, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- The problem with maps is that they are primary sources. The problem with writing the authors is that it is original research. Unfortunately we are bound by what the secondary sources say until a better source comes along. If writing the authors causes one of them to change their book (or to write a new book) then we'd have a good secondary-source, but we really need one to support the statement before we can start refuting other sources. Zaereth (talk) 06:11, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- I've done a bit of checking online, like with google books, but can only find sources about Denali being the tallest. The Guinness book says Rakaposhi has the "sheerest" vertical rise, but only addresses Hawaii as the tallest. (It does say that Denali can be seen from the farthest distance.) Your best bet may be to write a book of your own, make some money, refute these claims yourself, and then wait for someone to add it to Wikipedia. (Just sayin'.) Zaereth (talk) 08:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- Thats what I am seeing too. I agree with Jed that McKinley is likely not the worlds tallest peak above its land base but whenever we write about superlatives such as that we must follow what the reliable sources say even if they are wrong....otherwise we engage in original research. I have no problem rewriting the passage as I have suggested which would have the caveat that McKinley is one of but that isn't even what the sources say. I confess that I use maps all the time when I wrote short stub articles about mountains and take great leeway as to incorporating what I see but those don't have superlative statements.--MONGO 13:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- The secondary sources in question are demonstrably *unreliable* because they contradict the primary sources. WP:Using_maps_and_similar_sources_in_Wikipedia_articles says that it is appropriate to use maps "to source elevations, [...] or relative locations". Vertical rise is a statement about relative elevations and the data is staring us in the face. Can we either use the map to source a factual statement or simply remove the statement that is obviously false? Perpetuating a known-false statement seems contrary to the goals of Wikipedia. JedKBrown (talk) 20:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand us slightly. The point is that while maps could be used to reference a specific point, we can't conjure up statements based just on what we see as that becomes a violation of a core policy which is no original research...this is especially the case when we make any superlative claim such as the ones proposed. It would be greatly preferable is we had written and published works that support and override what we currently have.--MONGO 11:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
- If we had a precise definition of "base", then we could measure on the map and at least say that Rakaposhi and Nanga Parbat have greater elevation difference, thus contradicting the claim. But there is no universal definition of "base" (as stated in Mountain), so even though we are allowed to use measurements from the map as sources, and even though the statement is false with almost any imaginable definition of "base", we helplessly repeat folk legends because some secondary source wrote it down? Editors of other articles exercise discretion by choosing not to repeat fables and creationist propaganda as fact, though by the logic in this thread, the Creationists need only invent terms faster than the scientific literature can figure out what the terms mean and publish refutations. Should Wikipedia contain every published claim that isn't directly refuted by a majority of secondary sources? Does every printed document get a vote? Here we have secondary sources that might otherwise appear reliable, but make claims that are obviously wrong. Let's use discretion to avoid repeating them as fact. If you refuse to cite a map for an amendment to "one of the biggest", please just remove the statement entirely so that the article can be factual. JedKBrown (talk) 23:35, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
- I think you misunderstand us slightly. The point is that while maps could be used to reference a specific point, we can't conjure up statements based just on what we see as that becomes a violation of a core policy which is no original research...this is especially the case when we make any superlative claim such as the ones proposed. It would be greatly preferable is we had written and published works that support and override what we currently have.--MONGO 11:51, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
- The secondary sources in question are demonstrably *unreliable* because they contradict the primary sources. WP:Using_maps_and_similar_sources_in_Wikipedia_articles says that it is appropriate to use maps "to source elevations, [...] or relative locations". Vertical rise is a statement about relative elevations and the data is staring us in the face. Can we either use the map to source a factual statement or simply remove the statement that is obviously false? Perpetuating a known-false statement seems contrary to the goals of Wikipedia. JedKBrown (talk) 20:24, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- Thats what I am seeing too. I agree with Jed that McKinley is likely not the worlds tallest peak above its land base but whenever we write about superlatives such as that we must follow what the reliable sources say even if they are wrong....otherwise we engage in original research. I have no problem rewriting the passage as I have suggested which would have the caveat that McKinley is one of but that isn't even what the sources say. I confess that I use maps all the time when I wrote short stub articles about mountains and take great leeway as to incorporating what I see but those don't have superlative statements.--MONGO 13:51, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- I've done a bit of checking online, like with google books, but can only find sources about Denali being the tallest. The Guinness book says Rakaposhi has the "sheerest" vertical rise, but only addresses Hawaii as the tallest. (It does say that Denali can be seen from the farthest distance.) Your best bet may be to write a book of your own, make some money, refute these claims yourself, and then wait for someone to add it to Wikipedia. (Just sayin'.) Zaereth (talk) 08:17, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- The first thing to understand is that we are not against you here. Sure, we can arbitrarily remove it ... just to have it reverted again. That could lead to a nice edit-war and possibly to some great drama here on the talk page. Even if we get consensus from everybody, the information is still out there and will eventually get added again, and the whole thing begins anew. What we're suggesting is a more-permanent solution. Google books isn't everything, and there are plenty of places to look where reliable information can be found, but it may require some legwork on your part. (We looked around, but as the person who wants to make the change, the burden is really on you to do so.) This is why a really good, reliable source is the most desirable. (Personally, I don't feel qualified to interpret raw topographical-data from maps and then try to verify what you are saying, and many of our readers will feel the same way. Most of us will want to read it as interpreted by a qualified reliable-source.)
- What we are talking about is not a statement of fact, but a superlative. You are always on tricky ground when dealing with the suffix "-est." Whose to really say what is the best, highest, tallest, tastiest, etc..., and what standards did they use. It is really just a conclusion based upon raw, available data, but we Wikipedians can't make those conclusions ourselves. If what you say is correct (which I do not doubt it very well could be), then you would think someone has written about. If not, then as technology advances I'm sure they will write about it soon, because people love their superlatives. (My suggestion above to you was sincere, and not outside the realm of possibility.) Zaereth (talk) 00:12, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Using_maps_and_similar_sources_in_Wikipedia_articles says "It is quite in order to state the “Valley X is ‘U’ shaped with glacial moraine at its entrance”". This appears to grant that at least some editors have sufficient expertise to reach this conclusion without relying on secondary sources. I want to use an equally simple observation (elevation at two nearby coordinates, given earlier in this thread) as a counter-example to the claim made by a secondary source. I don't need to say that Rakaposhi or Nanga Parbat is the highest (to do that, you'd have to define the terms and look at a lot of maps, which I'll grant qualifies as original research). I only want to justify removing the false statement. If a hypothetical secondary source said "Zaereth lives in the highest elevation residential dwelling in the world", would it be incumbent on the editors to find two or more published sources claiming a different dwelling is highest, or would it be enough to identify cities that are higher? As a mathematician and scientist, a counter-example is all that is required to refute a claim. Since the counter-example can be verified with only a passing familiarity with maps (certainly within the scope of the WP guidelines above), I think it should be admissible as evidence to classify the printed source as unreliable. I originally came here because a friend repeated the statement and when I pointed out counter-examples, he was embarrassed and wondered why the Wikipedia page was incorrect. I've never gotten this much resistance to correcting a factual error on Wikipedia before. I have my own science to do and cannot justify the time to write a book just to fix a simple factual error. Finally, I'm optimistic that we can delete the statement without causing an edit war. Surely there are more controversial pages on Wikipedia, to which a great body of published-but-unreliable material applies, yet the editors use discretion to keep the articles factual. JedKBrown (talk) 01:02, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
- I understand what you are saying, but how many times are you prepared to explain it? I have a very reliable source that says the beaches of Ecuador are higher than Everest, simply because the Earth is not round but oblong shaped. It all depends on a point of reference.
- My point is this: I know a losing battle when I see one and I'm trying to help you avoid that. Eventually you will grow tired of defending this point you have so eloquently made and the statement will get added again. Somebody, somewhere will read it and try to add it, I predict sooner than later. Unless you can provide a source I'm afraid you may be fighting it a long time, and battlefields are not what we want to turn this place into. If you can't change it immediately it is not the end of the world, but patience and a little elbow-grease will serve you well on this. Zaereth (talk) 01:20, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
- As a simple, immediate, and maintainable compromise that avoids outright factual errors, could we change the wording to "some authors [cite Helman] consider the base-to-peak rise to be the largest of any mountain situated entirely above sea level [this is disputed, see talk page]."? JedKBrown (talk) 02:48, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I think this whole discussion about "factual errors" in base to peak rise misses the point, because there are no facts, nor is there a definition of the subject being spoken about. If Guinness or anyone else wants to define "base-to-peak rise", we can report it, but we should report it along with their definition, or at least a reference. There could be multiple sources with differing definitions, and we could report them all. But we cannot define it ourselves, nor can we create a category where none exists. I don't think we even know Helman's definition. Merely citing data about the elevation gain over a certain distance (which doesn't even satisfy the intuitive notion of base-to-peak rise anyway, for which we would need a circumference at the lower elevation) doesn't create a noteworthy category "base-to-peak rise" for mountains. I think the best we can do here is to say something clearly factual like "Helman (2005) reports Denali to have the greatest base to peak rise of any terrestrial mountain, at 5500 meters," along with any other relevant contradictory *published* statements we can find. Automeris (talk) 21:43, 27 February 2015 (UTC)
This source says that Rakaposhi is the only peak which drops uninterrupted for 6000m. http://www.summitpost.org/rakaposhi/173510 --Guajara3718 (talk) 12:55, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
"Eureka" and Kantishna
Recently, I changed Eureka, Alaska. For years, it redirected to Kantishna, Alaska, presumably due to mention of some obscure decision of the Board of Geographic Names. The problem is, most uses of "Eureka" were for the community northeast of Manley Hot Springs, which means that many articles contained erroneous wikilinks. Earlier this year, an editor changed the page to a stub about the latter Eureka, but it was reverted. I instead changed it to a disambiguation page. Here's the issue of relevance to this page: the editor who diffused the dab page changed the links on Walter Harper and Harry Karstens to point to the latter Eureka, when I assume that "Eureka" in this case actually refers to Kantishna (or, the inverse of the previous problem). Is there anyone who is familiar with the details of the 1913 expedition who could take a look and set things straight if need be? Any links I tried in the articles were dead, and I was never invited to the funeral. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 06:18, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Requested move 30 August 2015
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: page moved. WikIan (talk) 23:00, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Mount McKinley/Mount Denali → Denali – President Obama has announced a formal name change for the mountain: [8] Sally Jewell has already used her authority to change the name, according to the White House. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:04, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- Support – My only reservation might be to wait any time between now and the formal name change (it hasn't occurred yet, has it?). Dustin (talk) 21:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- The name change apparently takes effect with immediate force: Alaska Dispatch News -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:20, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- Support - now that it's official. Neutralitytalk 21:28, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- support — it's only a matter of time before it will be ubiquitous, and the name was common previously among climbers. 70.199.67.77 (talk) 21:42, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I've heard it called Mount McKinley, and I've heard it called Denali, but Mount Denali? Where'd that come from? Dustin (talk) 21:53, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- It seems someone was impatient for a page move, and unable to move the page over "Denali", moved it to "Mount Denali". Dustin (talk) 21:55, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- Strong Support - Down with the oppressor. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 21:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- Support My bad on the page move. I didn't realize the name was "Denali" and not "Mount Denali". MD is a reasonable redirect anyway. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:58, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
former known as, or also known as
An editor changed it twice from Denali, formerly known as Mount McKinley, to Denali, also known as Mount McKinley. The official name is now Denali, it known as that, not also known as something else. No reliable source is going to refer to it by its old name now. So it should be "formerly" known, not "also" known as. Dream Focus 00:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm going to agree with formerly because the lead sentence is talking about it's official name. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:06, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
See Kusilvak Census Area, Alaska (Kusilvak Census Area, formerly known as Wade Hampton Census Area). --Kmoksy (talk) 00:09, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Semantics aside, the entry should be listed as The Mountain Formally Known as . – ArugulaArugula (talk) 00:23, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Reliable sources for "Mount McKinley" or "Mt. McKinley" from 2015 include:
- --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please, everyone, every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the mainland is still calling it Mount McKinley. Use common sense. Also known as. Mindraker2 (talk) 00:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- All of those articles are from "before" Obama renamed the mountain today. So that's not "still calling it" Mount McKinley, that's calling it by its official name. I doubt any new sources will call it "Mt. McKinley". – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Muboshgu's statement. Mentioning what it was called before the official name change doesn't prove your point. And the LA Times link is from February and is about the battle to change its name. Dream Focus 00:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- What is the common name? If you query all English speakers globally, how many will recognize "Mt. McKinley" and how many will recognize "Denali"? Is WP supposed to provide a neutral point of view, or take its marching orders from the government? If a random politician wins office and arranges for the mountain to be "officially" renamed "Trumpali", do we then ignore common usage in favor of that? --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 00:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Formerly" explain things fine. To say "also known as" makes it sound official, which it is not. Anyone searching for the old name get redirected to the new. I don't think they'll be any confusion over what we are talking about here. Dream Focus 01:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- And just to be clear, I believe that having this place named after McKinley is a ridiculous historical accident, but I don't think that WP should be straying from "what is" to "what ought to be". --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 01:31, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I do not have a strong opinion on this, but perhaps something along the lines of "Denali (also known as Mount McKinley from 1917 to 2015) is the highest..." might be an acceptable alternative that would be less likely to generate ongoing discussions identical to this one. :-) Thingg⊕⊗ 01:44, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- What is the common name? If you query all English speakers globally, how many will recognize "Mt. McKinley" and how many will recognize "Denali"? Is WP supposed to provide a neutral point of view, or take its marching orders from the government? If a random politician wins office and arranges for the mountain to be "officially" renamed "Trumpali", do we then ignore common usage in favor of that? --Hobbes Goodyear (talk) 00:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Muboshgu's statement. Mentioning what it was called before the official name change doesn't prove your point. And the LA Times link is from February and is about the battle to change its name. Dream Focus 00:46, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- All of those articles are from "before" Obama renamed the mountain today. So that's not "still calling it" Mount McKinley, that's calling it by its official name. I doubt any new sources will call it "Mt. McKinley". – Muboshgu (talk) 00:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Please, everyone, every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the mainland is still calling it Mount McKinley. Use common sense. Also known as. Mindraker2 (talk) 00:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Just use "also," which is succinct, true, and doesn't draw undue attention to the naming nonsense away from the mountain itself. There are two names that have indisputably been used for the mountain; the exacts of official titles and the like can be discussed in the section dedicated to it. Per my edit summary before, look at the likes of Mumbai or Willis Tower - they both use "also known as" in their ledes. Simple and accurate. (I suppose it would be okay to say that it's "officially known as Denali", but that would imply it's NOT casually known as Denali, which would be incorrect. So... just move on. Spend 1 word rather than a sentence.) SnowFire (talk) 02:24, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with the above statement. There are plenty of people who hadn't ever heard of the name Denali and haven't learned that the mountain has been renamed. Dustin (talk) 02:32, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The current version is fine. Denali, officially known as Mount McKinley from 1917 until 2015 Dream Focus 03:12, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I can put a bullet here, too. What difference does that make? Mindraker2 (talk) 11:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Officially known as Mount McKinley from 1917 until 2015" sounds like the best option. "Formerly known as Mount McKinley" sounds a bit off because it's likely to be "known as" Mount McKinley by a lot of people for some time. "Known as Mount McKinley from 1917 until 1915" is also off, as it was "known as" Mount McKinley by at least some folks well before 1917.--Cúchullain t/c 13:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I agree, "officially known as Mt. McKinley from 1917-2015" does seem like a good compromise. Subtly denotes that Denali has been and is the common name, that officially it was McKinley for 98 years, and avoids the also/former dispute nicely. I'd support this as well. Gateman1997 (talk) 16:06, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Some of the earlier arguments in this thread suggest a belief that a "reliable source" is defined as one source which is in lockstep with the next source. Part of the principle behind reflecting multiple reliable sources is that particular sources sometimes get it wrong. As it pertains to this issue, I agree that "Mount McKinley" is not going to disappear from usage overnight, except in certain "official" circles. This resembles more a Wikipedian attempt to nudge things in that direction (see related comments below) than an attempt to properly reflect its name. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 16:17, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Except that evidence seems to suggest that the most common name referring to the mountain was Denali even before the renaming. If anything WP:COMMONNAMES wasn't being followed in favor of continuing to locate the article at Mt. McKinley, and with an official change that disparity in favor of the original Denali name is just going to grow. This official change has just spurred Wikipedia in a direction is should have already gone per its own guidelines. Gateman1997 (talk) 16:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Officially known as Mount McKinley from 1917 until 2015" sounds like the best option. "Formerly known as Mount McKinley" sounds a bit off because it's likely to be "known as" Mount McKinley by a lot of people for some time. "Known as Mount McKinley from 1917 until 1915" is also off, as it was "known as" Mount McKinley by at least some folks well before 1917.--Cúchullain t/c 13:28, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia's common naming policy should be followed.
Was this article just moved in response to a press release about Obama changing the name before his Alaska trip? If so, that violates policy. WP:COMMONNAME states that articles should be titled after the most commonly used name for the subject in reliable English language sources, and not necessarily the "official" name (which can vary from organization to organization anyway). That's why editors argue the US page should remain at "United States" instead of "United States of America", despite the latter being the country's official name. It's also why the article about Stefani Germanotta is titled "Lady Gaga".
I don't know what the most common name for the mountain is, but, not being a local Alaskan tribal member, everyone I encounter calls it "Mount McKinley", so it's at least something that should be investigated and decided on those terms, not the unilateral whims of a president that may or may not be undone by the next president (do we change it back if it is?). Maybe the "official" name change will ultimately lead to a change in what most sources call it, but that doesn't happen overnight. Policy dictates we go by the sources, not "official" decrees and certainly not our own personal preferences.
Has there been any discussion or analysis of the most used common name in sources before on this page? VictorD7 (talk) 04:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- One could argue that "Denali" has always been the common name, since that's what the locals have always called it, long before it was named after McKinley. In this case, I think it is officially the "common name" starting today, as I don't imagine any of these sources are going to continue to defiantly name it after McKinley. Even the Ohio interests that fought the name change have backed off in recent months. – Muboshgu (talk) 04:44, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- No, what matters in a primary title discussion is the name most commonly used by English language sources and recognizable to readers everywhere, not what locals call it (which often differs from the broader, common name) or what the "official" name is. I imagine millions of people and countless sources will continue to call it Mount McKinley, but what matters is what's primarily used in sources now, not future speculation. Were you the one who moved the article? If so, does this mean you didn't base the move on an analysis of usage in accordance with naming policy? VictorD7 (talk) 04:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- The move discussion is above, and you can see it didn't go too in depth. You could make the same argument that we should, for instance, move Chelsea Manning back to "Bradley Manning". If a full analysis of naming policy really would back McKinley over Denali, then I say WP:IAR. Obama righted this great wrong for us. If you want to open a new move discussion based on naming policy, go right ahead. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- That discussion was opened and closed on the same day with only 4 respondents. Furthermore, the few who did participate didn't appear to understand Wikipedia policy, since there was no policy discussion whatsoever and only a mention of when the name change would be "official". The essay you linked to warns against using Wikipedia to "right" "wrongs", and Obama can't right this alleged "wrong" for you. Only the preponderance of source usage can. That, combined with your signature in the move edit saying "#ThanksObama", shows your action here is about advocacy, which also violates policy and undermines any WP:IAR argument. "Ignore all rules" involves occasionally disregarding technicalities in remaining faithful to Wikipedia's spirit, while POV pushing runs counter to that spirit. I don't have a dog in this fight and only stumbled onto this page an hour or two ago, though editors like me are ideally the ones to make (or not make) changes like this one, as opposed to ones with blindingly strong personal biases involved. I don't care much what we call the mountain, but it is vital to consistently apply naming policy and not simply toss it out the window when someone's personal pet interest is involved.
- The move discussion is above, and you can see it didn't go too in depth. You could make the same argument that we should, for instance, move Chelsea Manning back to "Bradley Manning". If a full analysis of naming policy really would back McKinley over Denali, then I say WP:IAR. Obama righted this great wrong for us. If you want to open a new move discussion based on naming policy, go right ahead. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- No, what matters in a primary title discussion is the name most commonly used by English language sources and recognizable to readers everywhere, not what locals call it (which often differs from the broader, common name) or what the "official" name is. I imagine millions of people and countless sources will continue to call it Mount McKinley, but what matters is what's primarily used in sources now, not future speculation. Were you the one who moved the article? If so, does this mean you didn't base the move on an analysis of usage in accordance with naming policy? VictorD7 (talk) 04:56, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- And I did start a naming discussion with this section. I suppose someone could initiate an RFC to broaden involvement, but I wasn't sure if a responsible policy discussion/analysis had already taken place or not, so I figured I'd clarify that and inform the page of the pertinent policy first if they didn't know. My hope was that if the move was made under fallacious premises, which it appears it was, and it was made in good faith ignorance, the involved editor(s) would self revert or at least begin a sourcing analysis. This being Wikipedia, perhaps that was insanely optimistic. If nothing else though at least this section now stands for others to read in the future and possibly take action. VictorD7 (talk) 05:43, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think so, and I don't think it's easily guessable. While several commenters here have expressed that most people they know call it Mt. McKinley, in other discussion groups I've seen many people saying they thought the name already had been changed back, since everyone they know already calls it Denali. This view has been been common from people who live in Alaska and people in the outdoors/climbing community. I did a quick Google Trends check of "Denali" versus "McKinley" which showed them at about equal numbers (except for a huge spike for "McKinley" in July 2010) but a lot of confounding from the GMC vehicle, the president, and other places named after the president. So I don't think the WP:COMMONNAME case exists right now for one name or the other, and would have to be made. I also think it's reasonable to expect some amount of change in the names reliable sources use in the near future. Given the problems of the past, I don't think WP:COMMONNAME is sufficient, when the outside world is deciding whether the name of a place or person "really has" changed or not, to settle the debates between editors who want Wikipedia to reflect that change earlier and those who want it to do so later or not at all. Metadox (talk) 10:34, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Lady's and gentlemen, the fact remains that this is an executive order and can be easily undone by a future president. As such many will continue to call it by its federally recognized name, signed by statue through congress. Let us leave both and see what happens in the coming year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:404:100:1150:AC08:D066:9EBC:B446 (talk) 05:39, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- One can't argue that Denali is the most common name since it's not the most common name used. 176.71.42.152 (talk) 08:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- You lot are making a mountain out of a molehill. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 11:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- This move makes absolutely no sense. "Denali" is most certainly not its common name in the English-speaking world. The name "change" (and it will almost certainly be immediately undone once a different president is in office) is likely temporary, and will not affect what the English-speaking world calls the mountain. Wikipedia immediately changing the name of this article based on a press release from Pres. Obama reflects very poorly on the encyclopedia, and lends credence to those who attack our project for being skewed liberal. It needs to be undone straightaway. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 13:37, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- While never totally conclusive, I'd just like to point out that a search of Denali on Google for example brings up 21 million results (minus references to the automobile of the same name), Mount McKinley brings up a mere 5.6 million. Would seem to support the notion that "Denali" IS the common name and should be used per WP:COMMONNAMES. This is simply a case of officials finally catching up with reality. Gateman1997 (talk) 16:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Bingo. Thanks for researching those numbers. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:48, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Not only is that research not conclusive, it's actually completely wrong. A much more accurate reflection of standard naming conventions is to search for "Mt Denali" versus "Mt McKinley", with the quotes included. This results in 1.03 million hits for "Mt McKinley" and only 31,300 for "Mt Denali." So let's not pretend you've made some sort of case that Denali satisfies naming conventions. In my view, it does not, and it's not particularly close. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 17:29, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- This issue is not completely uncomplicated, but Alaska has requested that Denali be the official federal name (matching their name) for 40 years, see Denali–Mount McKinley naming dispute, and according to the largest Alaskan newspaper, it has "long been known to Alaskans as Denali," [9]. Republicans in Alaska support the name change, so there's no risk of it changing back.--Milowent • hasspoken 17:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME states that in the event of a name change, more weight should be given to sources that came out after the change than before. Though it's only been one day, it appears the sources clearly favor "Denali".--Cúchullain t/c 17:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 31 August 2015
"The Koyukon Athabaskan people who inhabit the area around the mountain referred to the peak as Dinale or Denali"
>> "The Koyukon Athabaskan people who inhabit the area around the mountain refer to the peak as Dinale or Denali"
Past tense is inappropriate here. 97.117.168.240 (talk) 06:04, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
More on the naming issue
Moved from Talk:Denali National Park and Preserve#Name of mountain, as it pertains more to the current discussions here than to the park itself. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 14:01, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
The name of the mountain is Mt. McKinley. There are no ands, ifs, or buts about it. It doesn't matter what the Park Service thinks, or what Obama wants, or what the locals call it. The name is Mt. McKinley. Calling it "Denali" is a political act, it is erroneous, it brings Wikipedia into disrepute, and it turns off readers. Leaving it as Denali is not supported by anything but local custom, and there are many place names around the country that have disputes like that. Abbondanza7777 (talk) 02:35, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Nice to see the Obama lackeys at Wikipedia are at the forefront of corrupting the information within a few hours — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.161.24.187 (talk) 16:27, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- I left the following at another bully board. Copying it here, as I feel it's also relevant to this discussion:
RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 10:20, 31 August 2015 (UTC)Over the years, names have changed and/or boundaries have changed, and some of our most active Wikipedians have a million excuses why they can't be bothered to help when such occurs, resulting in factual inaccuracies which linger for years. Contrast this with the highly coordinated and Johnny-on-the-spot effort to replace "Wade Hampton Census Area" with "Kusilvak Census Area", which in that case occurred on Wikipedia before it was recognized by the Census Bureau, now followed by this. I understand that the power of this website has given rise to people who believe it's more appropriate to use Wikipedia to influence the world rather than merely reflect it, but making Wikipedia a party to the current political effort to eradicate names because they are of "dead white guys" doesn't instill a whole lot of confidence in someone such as myself who isn't here for that.
- I don't know how "highly coordinated" replacing Wade Hampton with Kusilvak was, considering I did virtually all of it myself, following the lead of multiple reputable sources, because I had a free hour or so to spend the time doing it and I knew what I was doing. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:03, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- It's hilariously ironic for you to complain about "political acts" when the article clearly states that the name Mt. McKinley was given as a form of political support for then-presidential candidate William McKinley. Azure94 (talk) 15:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Nothing political about changing the name to what Alaska and Alaskans have been calling it for 40 years, what their federal representatives (of ALL political affiliations) have been calling for it to be recognized as at the Federal level for 40 years, and what it is called by most of the mountaineering community for even longer, and to what has been the common name for a long time now. The McKinley naming in the first place, and the Ohio congressional delegation's continued attempt to block any recognition of its true name has been the only real political move in all of this. Gateman1997 (talk) 16:13, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
- Like I said above, if you don't like the way it was done (and I grant this page was moved way faster than normally happens here), open a new move discussion to undo it. We can have a longer, more drawn out discussion to establish an unquestioned consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:53, 31 August 2015 (UTC)