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:I haven't noticed a radical systemic left or right wing bias on Wikipedia. But there's certainly a United States or Anglo-centric bias on all matters coming from all political directions. Never more so than on this page, which is why I'm involved. Due to the particular relationship between Cuba and the US, I believe that certain contributors are unable to evaluate this article in a NPOV manner. I would have equal concerns that some UK editors would struggle with NPOV relating to Gibralter, Northern Ireland or even Australian sport! And I would also have concerns about Indian editors descriptions of Kashmir, or Chinese editors comments on Tibet for example. In your case Adam, I believe your public dedication to Social Democrat ideals (which is as noble as any other ideology) has clouded your judgement and has lead to your misunderstanding of the basic tenets of wikipedia, you're just too passionately involved. Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance. --[[User:Zleitzen|Zleitzen]] 13:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC) |
:I haven't noticed a radical systemic left or right wing bias on Wikipedia. But there's certainly a United States or Anglo-centric bias on all matters coming from all political directions. Never more so than on this page, which is why I'm involved. Due to the particular relationship between Cuba and the US, I believe that certain contributors are unable to evaluate this article in a NPOV manner. I would have equal concerns that some UK editors would struggle with NPOV relating to Gibralter, Northern Ireland or even Australian sport! And I would also have concerns about Indian editors descriptions of Kashmir, or Chinese editors comments on Tibet for example. In your case Adam, I believe your public dedication to Social Democrat ideals (which is as noble as any other ideology) has clouded your judgement and has lead to your misunderstanding of the basic tenets of wikipedia, you're just too passionately involved. Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance. --[[User:Zleitzen|Zleitzen]] 13:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC) |
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BTW, Adam, did you see my response regarding the "Economy" section? Let me know if there's anything else I can do if you're interested in easing your workload here. [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 13:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC) |
BTW, Adam, did you see my response regarding the "Economy" section? Let me know if there's anything else I can do if you're interested in easing your workload here. [[User:172|172]] | [[User talk:172|Talk]] 13:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC) |
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172, I don't regard editing Wikipedia as work, I regard it as fun. In response to Zleitzen: It depends on what you mean by "bias." Of course there is a US bias at Wikipedia in the sense that the majority of its editors are Americans, who are naturally preoccupied with the things that interest Americans, which is why movie stars and computer games have articles larger than those for African presidents. But the demographics of American Wikipedians are overwhelmingly affluent and highly educated, which means that they share the general left-liberal views of that demographic. So of course do I in many respects, but I have been trained in a school of anti-communist social democratic politics (specifically the right wing of the [[Australian Labor Party), after having been a communist in my (now rather distant) youth. I am also a trained historian (not that I'm allowed to say that at Wikipedia of course), and I know a lot of the foul history of communism in great detail. This particular combination of biographical circumstances makes me both more aware than the average Wikipedian of the creeping left bias here, and more determined to do something about it. You say that "Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance." I agree in the abstract, but what is one to do when confronted by fools like ScottGrayban or hypocritical, devious Castro apologists like Bruce? (Yes Bruce, I am being ''uncivil'' - so sue me). When you're on a slippery slope, achieving balance requires a deliberate struggle. (I'm logging off now so you have 11 hours or so to respond :) ) [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 13:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:41, 3 May 2006
Archive 01 | Archive 02 | Archive 03 | Archive 04 | Archive 05
More civil discussion about Cuban democracy
Bruce's bleatings about "civility" are just a cover for his political agenda, which is to prevent the truth about the Castro dictatorship appearing at Wikipedia. I treat them with the contempt they deserve. My dictionary defines "verify" as "prove, confirm truth of." Wikipedia is about what is (a) true and (b) can be shown to be true. Adam 00:51, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Your use of the verb 'bleating' is an insult. You accuse me of an agenda to 'prevent the truth', which is not my agenda. I do not have an agenda to prevent your POV from being in Wikipedia. My agenda is to get the opposing POV into Wikipedia beside your POV for the purpose of neutrality, see WP:NPOV. BruceHallman 01:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Adam, don't be intimidated by Bruce. You are doing a good job. Personally, I Bruce is kvetching, not bleating - though frankly he does so much of it, it's hard to tell some times. Merecat 03:14, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- If you consider attempts to apply Wikipedia and encyclopedic standards kvetching, Merecat, then I query your motives concerning the overall project. These standards are essential, that you consider them kvetching speaks volumes.--Zleitzen 04:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
When I get time this evening I will do a new edit of both this article and Elections in Cuba, based on the text I proposed (above) as part of the failed attempt at a settlement with the pro-Castro faction (which now seems to consist of Bruce and Michael, with Zleitzen occupying a neutralist position). I think this is a very fair and balanced text. However my offer to delete the description of Cuba's political status in the opening paragraph in exchange for an agreed text is now withdrawn, so that will stay. Adam 03:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- I've always attempted to retain a neutralist position, Adam. My lack of response to your paragraphs was due in part to unrelated time restraints imposed by tiresome toddlers! Will respond when I've cleared my head of the damn teletubbies and refocused on the matters at hand. --Zleitzen 04:00, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
But you did respond, Zleitzen. You specifically said that you would not write a "why Cuba is a democracy" section for my text. If you have changed your mind about that, fine. Adam 04:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Adam, nobody is going to author a piece stating "why Cuba is a democracy". This isn't a school assignment. I refer to my comments above about Wikipedia guidelines, canonical exposition etc, etc. I have yet to examine your other paragraphs in detail, much of it seems indesputable, but at a glance I still sense the author behind the words. Therefore I defer to Bruce's structural proposal, and will help ensure that your position is represented within. --Zleitzen 04:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Once again you are most obtusely misrepresenting what I asked you to do. I didn't ask you to say why you think Cuba is a democracy (if indeed you do). I asked you to complete the sentence "The Cuban Government and its supporters argue that Cuba is a democracy because..." In other words, to summarise the argument that Cuba is a democracy, as a balancing section to the text saying that by most objective criteria Cuba is a not a democracy. I am perfectly capable of writing it myself, but I was trying to be as accommodating as possible to the pro-Castro faction by asking them to write it themselves rather than have me paraphrase their arguments for them. But if none of you / them are willing or able to do so, I will do it myself. I for one am trying to bring this extremely tiresome process to an end. Adam 04:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Adam, I stated in my paragraph "The distinct nature of grassroots political participation in Cuba etc..." and then wrote this "Some international analysts have also suggested that Cuba’s constitution describes a Direct democracy" which linked to this [1]. Which states this... "This participatory system contained an interesting combination of direct democracy and the use of representation as granted by election" before detailing municipal and grassroots participation.
- If you deem it necessary I'll clarify, Some people believe Cuba has democratic qualities due to the high degree of mass participation in grassroots descision making.--Zleitzen 13:22, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- From an internal perspective, Cuba is free to call itself a "Democracy", but if measured by the major standards of current Democracies, fails the test: No truly free elections, no freedom of the press, limited due process, no right to dissent, etc. The current Cuban government is a Police State, with a few limited window dressings paraded around to the world media. It's absurd to say otherwise and I fail to see why this is even being argued. Merecat 05:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Hmmm... that's news to me.
- Republic says: "In a broad definition a republic is a state or country that is led by people who do not base their political power on any principle beyond the control of the people of that state or country. Several definitions, including that of the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica, stress the importance of autonomy and the rule of law as part of the requirements for a republic."
- Whereas, Police State says:
- "A police state is an authoritarian state which uses the police, especially secret police, to maintain and enforce political power, often through violent or arbitrary means. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism or other harsh means of social control. In a police state the police are not subject to the rule of law and there is no meaningful distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.".
- The 2nd one sounds more like Cuba to me. Even, so I don't have a dog in the fight at this article and I am happy to yield on this point - even though I do think that my edit was and it correct. Merecat 13:06, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- As much as I know first-hand for that to be true, Merecat, you need to provide citations. I hope I have a moment later to add more. --Mcmachete 17:05, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Merecat, I agree with your characterization of Cuba's political system. Still, notice that in other sourcebooks, such as any encyclopedia or The World Almanac, under the description "government-type" the Cuba and other Communist regimes are either described as "republics" "federal republics" (in the case of the Soviet Union) or "Communist states." It is widely understood that these terms are often fig-leaves in the context of describing a "government-type." At any rate, thanks for your contributions to the talk page. It's a relief to see another well-informed user watching things around here. 172 | Talk 18:26, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Pending mediation.
Our mediation has been pending since April 28, waiting it appears, for a response from Adam. I point your attention here in case you missed it. BruceHallman 13:34, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam's Government Rewrite
I'd be intrigued to discover why you find Jimmy Carter an important commentator on the Cuban democracy debate. Whilst you find Chavez and Humala (fellow Bolivarians with opposing views) irrelevant? My reading of this would be the reverse. Personally I have little interest in what an ex US president of nearly 30 years has to say on the matter. Whilst Chavez, and to a lesser extent Humala, are presently altering the international political landscape. --Zleitzen 17:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- From this perspective, Carter is far from some random US ex-president. From Jimmy Carter#Post-presidency:
- He and members of the center are sometimes involved in the monitoring of the electoral process in support of free and fair elections. This includes acting as election observers, particularly in Latin America and Africa.
- Given that Carter has been very involved in monitoring elections (including the ones in Chavez's home country), his opinion is obviously very important. --Bletch 18:10, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- And-- sorry to inform you-- more credible than Chavez. 172 | Talk 18:18, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Adam Carr, excellent work once again. Keep up the work. 172 | Talk 18:21, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. Zleitzen weakens his credibility in my eyes by questioning the relevance of Carter's comments, let alone comparing him to Chavez. Since the end of his (very mediocre) presidency, Carter has rehabilitated himself as a democracy watchdog of undoubted integrity and considerable courage. His opinion on such matters is relevant and important. Chavez is a sleazy demagogue and thug who admires Castro only because he too would like to be president-for-life. Adam 23:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Adam, I support you on this page, but Carter is an arrogant blow-hard who mollycoddles tyrants and spews anti-USA tripe. I think he has very low credibility. Of course, Chavez has zero credibility and is even worse than Carter. That said, there are many who do say that Carter is reputable in the election overseeing dept., so his views must be given weight. Merecat 00:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with you that Carter is anti-US, but if you are right then that gives his comments even more weight, no? Adam 00:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd disagree as well. One could perhaps charge Carter with being naive. Still, I doubt that any serious presidential biographers question his patriotism and the sincerity of his belief in democracy promotion. I'd say the same about George W. Bush, despite being a party-line Democratic voter. 172 | Talk 06:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I merely question the relevance of Carter, it's as simple as that, Adam. As for his supposed integrity or Chavez's motives, I wouldn't like to speculate here. I just prefer international responses, to move the depiction of Cuba away from being notable only in relation to the US. But I won't kick up a big storm about this, Bletch makes some reasonable points. --Zleitzen 00:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I have quoted the opinion of the OAS's human rights body, who are much better qualified to comment than Chavez. Note that I have refrained from quoting anyone in the current US administration, or from Freedom House or the NED, although they have had plenty to say that I could have used. Adam 01:22, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I'd go further and point out how absurd it is that we're even having a discussion about whether or not an Chavez is an authority on democracy. Chavez is an ex-putschist, not a credible promoter of democracy-- a fact that should be clear enough without having to double-check NED and Freedom House reports. 172 | Talk 06:19, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- 172, nobody is having a discussion on whether or not Chavez is an "authority on democracy" accept you and Adam. Please read wikipedia guidelines as to what constitutes notable or substantial.--Zleitzen 11:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, can you explain why you see Chavez's opinion of "Cuban democracy" worthy of inclusion on the main Cuba page at all? If we included all opinions equally notable as Chavez's, the size of the article would double. --Bletch 12:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not satisfied with Adam's rewrite of the goverment section. I'm also extremly displeased that in opening paragraph of the article Adam insists that there should be a sentence "only country ... that is not democracy" without other point of view. It would be much better, neutrality wise, that that sentence should be deleted. But it is much worse that should it stays there as if it's a fact. If it's disputed, it should not be mentioned. Also, it's highly hypocritical writing something like "by Latin American standards, Batista was a mild dictator". Dictator is a dictator. A mild one ... What's a criteria for this? He killed only few of his opponents opposed to other Latin American dictators? This sentence clearly has no place in encyclopedia article. My opinion that writing things like these is confronting Wikipedia's policies and does not confront with WP:NPOV
But after engaging in this discussion for only few days I became tired. Tired of the fact that what ever I say, it wont make a difference, because Adam and 172 and others will proceede to do what ever they like to do, write in this article to their liking and unilateraly.
Adam, I understand that you are a historian. You may be a great historian, but that does not make you a great writer of encyclopedia articles.--RockyMM 12:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Tasks remaining
Now that we seem to have fixed up the History, Politics and Human Rights sections, the remaining problems are:
- The Economy section is too long and needs to be cut in half, with the surplus exported to Economy of Cuba.
- The Infrastructure section doesn't have much to recommend it and could well be abolished.
- The "table" in the Health section looks hideous and should be moved to Public health in Cuba.
- The culture section is if anything now too short, and not very good. Adam 03:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You've been working pretty hard here. If you're running short of time, I can volunteer to fix up at least the economy section, weaving together information from World Bank reports and the CIA Factbook entry (though, to be honest, I hope you do all the work!). The one section on which I wouldn't be to qualified to help is culture. 172 | Talk 06:24, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to the economy. But (loud whisper) don't mention the CIA! Adam 06:36, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Opps, that hadn't crossed my mind. Time for a self-criticism, I suppose. 172 | Talk 07:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I just rewrote the economy section. It's not the most inspired writing, but it didn't take much to improve the section. The economy section was particularly bad. (By the way, the old section actually included a link to a Granma article!) 172 | Talk 09:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
On a related note, economy of Cuba also needs a clean-up. Most of the text there is not unsalvageable. Still, the article (predictably) does in detail extolling Cuba's "world-class biotechnology and pharmaceutical industry" while not mentioning the word "rationing" even once! 172 | Talk 09:55, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- And your present paragraph doesn't mention the US embargo, 172. Your re-write omits that elephant in the room. Nor does your re-write recognise any of this [2] or this [3] or this [4] etc, etc. But we're in for the long haul towards NPOV, so we will have plenty of time to discuss the economy section in more detail once more pressing issues are resolved. --Zleitzen 12:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the embargo and its effect on the economy need to be discussed. While revolutionary regimes which claim to reject the world capitalist system can't really complain when that system takes them at their word and excludes them, the loss of Cuba's most natural export market and source of investment (the US) has obviously had a major impact on its economy. But ultimately, of course, Cuba's poverty is Castro's fault, because the embargo, however misguided, is a response to his undemocratic regime. When Castro came to power, Cuba and Puerto Rico had roughly comparable standards of living. Today Puerto Rico is six times wealthier than Cuba per capita in per capita GDP, although I concede that in Cuba the poverty is more evenly distributed. If Castro had never come to power, Cuba would by now not only be a democracy, it would be at least as rich as Puerto Rico and probably richer. (Don't worry, comrades, I'm not going to try to put that in the article.) I'm also struck by 172's assertion that Cuba is a net importer of sugar. What is his source? The FAO doesn't seem to support this. Adam 13:27, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- (1) My omission of the embargo was intentional. Still, if you want to add a few details on the embargo, please go ahead. Since you're the main author of the article, I'll defer to your editorial judgment on how to organize the article. In case you're interested, I'll lay out my reasoning on the omission. First, when I was writing the section and contemplating the choice of adding a few lines on the about the embargo, I realized that by the time the reader would work his or her way down to the "Economy" section, the embargo had already been mentioned about half a dozen times, particularly in the "History" section. Hence, I was interested in avoiding redundancy. Second, while I do not disregard the role of the embargo in cementing Cuba's isolation from the world capitalist system, I think that's a topic belonging under a broader discussion of economic history in the "History" section. My assumption is that a section entitled "Economy" is not necessarily going to offer an economic history. The "Economy" section is supposed to be a discussion of the contemporary Cuban economy, right? (The model I had in mind was something along the lines of a shorter version of the type of write-up one would find in Economist Intelligence Unit country report.) At any rate, if you disagree, I won't make an issue out of it. (2) Regarding the claim that Cuba is a net-importer of sugar, the figure is indeed quite surprising. I found that claim in the Heritage Foundation's most recent report on Cuba. [5] While I'm not much of a fan of Heritage generally, I don't think the factual accuracy of their reports is too much of a question. Still, if you want to remove the claim, go ahead. It's only one possible anecdotal illustration of the deep-seated structural problems in Cuba commonly associated with other past Soviet-style command economies. If you can think of more relevant, please add them. 172 | Talk 16:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Archive manipulation
Maybe as an archive worker I'm being a bit sensitive but I am finding it a tad disturbing that the archives of this discussion are being manipulated, probably by Adam and his allies. Last time I dropped by I wrote some comments, under the heading 'The Cold War continues...', on Adam's claims to be the standard bearer of the truth round here. The next time I looked a new page had been started, and the last section of the previous page, (now Archive 5) had been broken up by subheadings all of which begin with 'Bruce complains about...'. My contribution and Bletch's response had completely disappeared and the end of the previous section been merged with the contributions that followed, and copied over to form the top of this page. Strategic duplication?
Looking further I noticed that each of the four archive pages formed since Adam's arrival here had two things in common, Adam had been the last or last but one contributor, and the histories of the pages almost totally erased. Care to tell us how you did it, Adam? Care to tell us how it tallies with your commitment to facts and truth?
- Here follows the missing bit MichaelW 15:28, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- ==the cold war continues...==
To respond to an earlier bit of empty rhetoric - who cares what Adam thinks? Back after a while away I see nothing much has changed. Those sympathetic to socialist Cuba are dismissed as apologists and/or naive, while those critical are describing 'reality', 'the truth' and saying certain things are'obvious' or 'factual'. Bruce is described (by an unchallenged sockpuppet) as frustrating when he is clearly reacting from a sense of frustration. Adam damns him as a communist, rather than, more generously,patronise him as naive. What qualifies you, Adam, to claim to be writing something 'factual'? All you will do is present the arguments you consider relevant, while ignoring the ones which weaken the POV you are trying to assert. What is factual about that? You have shown over and over that your definition of democracy pertains solely to the method by which governments are chosen and ignores the actual social and economic structures within which those governments work. By keeping the focus of the argument on the definition of democracy as you define it you avoid dealing with issues like the value of a balloted vote as opposed to the raw economic power of private ownership.
How much time do you want to spend trying to convince us that you, and only you, know best? It appears to me that you aren't interested in a solution to this page's problems. No matter what you write, no matter how accurate it is within the limits that you set, the perspectives that look beyond your limits aren't going to fade away, simply because you and your supporters insist that they do so. 172 promised you an edit war when he asked for your assistance. Is that what you are here for? the fight? Your continuing displays of contempt for those who dare disagree with you suggests that this is so and that you see the discussions here strictly in terms of win or lose, rather than a struggle to reach agreement. MichaelW 01:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
- Well guess what, democracy is solely about the process which leaders are chosen, and the ability to openly criticize the government. And by those measures, Cuba's democracy is non existent. No amount of sugar can make that bitter pill easier to swallow. Sure, you can go and say that Cuba which is not a democracy is probably a more pleasent place to live than Haiti which is a democracy, but that is no more relevant to the question of democracy than the price of a cigar. --Bletch 01:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Tasks remaining - continued
Please take note of the following
Excuse me, but I would like to point out, to whomever is in charge of this topic, that concerning economy PROSTITUTION and WAGES in real dollars should be mentioned. Prostitution is widespread, and sex-tourism is depended upon by many citizens. A high wage, in CUBA, is 5 dollars. 5 dollars! Now, politically, statements should be made concerning its government, that is a totalitarian regime, a dictatorship, but different from others. It's a different system, but a totalitarian none the less. 12:27, 2 May 2006. (I'm Ippet Iset).
'not a democracy citation'
The present citation for the 'not a democracy' phrase is this CIDH link. That citation does not even include one instance of the use or the word 'democracy' or 'democratic'. For that reason, that citation appears to be not pertinent. BruceHallman 18:04, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Proposal to BruceHallman
I propose a gentlemen's agreement to quickly make things run more smoothly here. I'll agree to abstain forever from editing any Cuba-related articles if BruceHallman does the same. It's a tit-for-tat deal that'll make things easier for all of us (especially the two of us). 172 | Talk 21:06, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- With due respect; I renew my commitment to act like a gentlemen, to act civilly and to honor all the Wikipedia policies including WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. I trust you are willing to make the same commitment? BruceHallman 21:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I do. Now, we are both at loggerheads with respect to how those polices apply here. Neither of us are indispensable. It makes sense for both of us to part ways to deescalate things around here. 172 | Talk 21:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Then we agree that there is more than one point of view regarding the 'not a democracy' claim. Then we agree that the article should try to represent a neutral point of view on that topic. Then we agree that the 'not a democracy' assertion must meet WP:V with a credible citation. BruceHallman 21:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- No, I think your position is very wrong. You think I'm wrong. With both of us gone, the net effect is zero. 172 | Talk 21:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think you are saying my point of view is wrong. I can appreciate that you believe this. But, you misunderstand me. I have not announced my point of view. You do not know my point of view. I have only sought to include the significant contrary point of view into the article. The fact that I am seeking to do this does not mean that I endorse that point of view personally. BruceHallman 22:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I hope you are not saying that I am wrong to ask that the policies neutrality, verifiability and civility be honored. That is all that I am asking. BruceHallman 22:07, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- We're going in circles. I said I consider your applications or interpretations of those policies consistently wrong. My request should have been easy enough to understand. I'm sure the other editors will get the point. This is my last comment under this heading, unless you show in interest in the detente I was proposing. 172 | Talk 22:16, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- I don't think there's a need for either party to retreat from working out the issues on the page, although an edit war should be unnecessary. At present the "not a democracy" wording alerts readers to the abject failure of this page (as the Miami Herald recognises) and the credibility of those who insist on it's inclusion. So even whilst causing damage to the reputation of Wikipedia, your reverts have served a certain purpose, 172. --Zleitzen 00:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- No, I think your position is very wrong. You think I'm wrong. With both of us gone, the net effect is zero. 172 | Talk 21:52, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Then we agree that there is more than one point of view regarding the 'not a democracy' claim. Then we agree that the article should try to represent a neutral point of view on that topic. Then we agree that the 'not a democracy' assertion must meet WP:V with a credible citation. BruceHallman 21:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I do. Now, we are both at loggerheads with respect to how those polices apply here. Neither of us are indispensable. It makes sense for both of us to part ways to deescalate things around here. 172 | Talk 21:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- Is the Miami Herald reporting on our work here? Can we have a link?
- Why this sudden renewed outbreak of pessimism, comrades? We have made excellent progress over the past two days with very little unpleasantness. Let us forge ahead to achieve new victories in socialist article-construction. Adam 00:52, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- Indeed you are famous now in Miami, Dr Carr!! See top of page.--Zleitzen 00:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- How entertaining. Miami is of course full of people who know a lot about the realities of Cuban "democracy." Perhaps some of them will come and help us edit the article. Won't that be fun, comrades? Adam 01:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- Judging by the state of the article Adam, I thought that was already the case! The Herald piece is not the only thing that tickled me today, I've just looked at Merecat's Police State citation and it refers to Camp X-Ray! Marvellous! --Zleitzen 01:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- How entertaining. Miami is of course full of people who know a lot about the realities of Cuban "democracy." Perhaps some of them will come and help us edit the article. Won't that be fun, comrades? Adam 01:10, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
References indeed need to be checked. I googled "human rights + Cuba" and more than half the references I got were about Guantanamo Bay. So much for 11 million Cubans. By the way, what does "El Gran Comepinga" mean? Adam 01:57, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- It's a derogatory term meaning "The Great Dick-eater." While I whole-heartedly agree, it obviously shouldn't be in an encyclopedia, as it is something Bruce will be all too happy to pronounce as being in violation of wiki NPOV. --Mcmachete 03:14, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Agreeing what Cuba is not results from knowing what Cuba is
- "Cuba is a totalitarian police state, which relies on repressive methods to maintain control". Merecat 21:25, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- "A police state is as a police state does" Merecat 21:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- "Cuba a Communist Hellhole, State Department Reveals" Merecat 21:30, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- "CUBA: A NEW CRACKDOWN ON DISSIDENTS" Merecat 21:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
- And this "Moreover, Cuba is a one-party police state filled with political prisons..." from that bastion of rightwing propaganda, Harpers. Merecat 21:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
Cuba on US Terrorist List
Zleitzen, in your zeal to remove my edits, you also removed a needed clarification of Roosevelt as US president, and re-introduced a derogatory term describing Castro . Please explain to me how this addition is not relevant...
- As stated in its annual Country Reports on Terrorism (released April 2006), the United States lists Cuba as one of six coutries whose governments "have repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism" [6].
US-Cuba relations are riddled throughout the history of Cuba section. If this is not the right section, then what is? I am not vandalizing. I'm attempting to present a clear and accurate (and cited!) account. --Mcmachete 05:43, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry Mcmachete, I intended to just remove the US statement. Some vandal was operating at the same time which interfered with the edit. Your US Report on Terrorism is notable and needs to be recorded, but I feel it says more about the US than Cuba. I'd like to keep this article short and in keeping with other nation articles (see Iran and see my comments to editors on the Iraq page [7]). Adam points to an excellant solution below.--Zleitzen 11:18, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think U.S.-Cuba relations merits an article in its own right, with a lead from this article. Adam 05:58, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- Above you identified the Guantanemo/human rights ratio on the English speaking internet. That's the other side of the systemic bias coin. Recent US human rights violations receive huge coverage, whilst (say) Indian human rights violations in Kashmir are barely noted. This seeps through into Wikipedia, and it's why we should tread very carefully in these matters. We should attempt to achieve proportion as best we can at all times. --Zleitzen 12:02, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Good idea, Adam. Merecat 08:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Zleitzen, I'm glad you agree that there is systemic anti-US and left-wing bias on the internet (these two terms have now become synonymous, of course, thanks to G W Bush). Now all we need is for you to acknowledge that this is also true at Wikipedia. PMA has just been telling me that pro-communist editors (whom I only half-jokingly call the Communist Party of Wikipedia and who have made the prolonged battle at this article necessary), are also active at the articles on Lenin, Stalin and elsewhere. This is going to become a very serious problem for Wikipedia as it becomeas more and more widely read. Sooner or later Wikipedia's rules will need to be changed to prevent this kind of systematic political manipulation - not just by communists of course, but they are are worst offenders at present. Adam 12:30, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
- I haven't noticed a radical systemic left or right wing bias on Wikipedia. But there's certainly a United States or Anglo-centric bias on all matters coming from all political directions. Never more so than on this page, which is why I'm involved. Due to the particular relationship between Cuba and the US, I believe that certain contributors are unable to evaluate this article in a NPOV manner. I would have equal concerns that some UK editors would struggle with NPOV relating to Gibralter, Northern Ireland or even Australian sport! And I would also have concerns about Indian editors descriptions of Kashmir, or Chinese editors comments on Tibet for example. In your case Adam, I believe your public dedication to Social Democrat ideals (which is as noble as any other ideology) has clouded your judgement and has lead to your misunderstanding of the basic tenets of wikipedia, you're just too passionately involved. Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance. --Zleitzen 13:08, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
BTW, Adam, did you see my response regarding the "Economy" section? Let me know if there's anything else I can do if you're interested in easing your workload here. 172 | Talk 13:05, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
172, I don't regard editing Wikipedia as work, I regard it as fun. In response to Zleitzen: It depends on what you mean by "bias." Of course there is a US bias at Wikipedia in the sense that the majority of its editors are Americans, who are naturally preoccupied with the things that interest Americans, which is why movie stars and computer games have articles larger than those for African presidents. But the demographics of American Wikipedians are overwhelmingly affluent and highly educated, which means that they share the general left-liberal views of that demographic. So of course do I in many respects, but I have been trained in a school of anti-communist social democratic politics (specifically the right wing of the [[Australian Labor Party), after having been a communist in my (now rather distant) youth. I am also a trained historian (not that I'm allowed to say that at Wikipedia of course), and I know a lot of the foul history of communism in great detail. This particular combination of biographical circumstances makes me both more aware than the average Wikipedian of the creeping left bias here, and more determined to do something about it. You say that "Editing here shouldn't be a crusade of ideologies, it should be about scientific verifiability and NPOV balance." I agree in the abstract, but what is one to do when confronted by fools like ScottGrayban or hypocritical, devious Castro apologists like Bruce? (Yes Bruce, I am being uncivil - so sue me). When you're on a slippery slope, achieving balance requires a deliberate struggle. (I'm logging off now so you have 11 hours or so to respond :) ) Adam 13:41, 3 May 2006 (UTC)