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::::::::: I have reintroduced the recent data. The arXiv ref '''is''' in print in Phys. Rev. C. (There may be 40 journal articles on the topic.) I have altered my text to clarify the nature of the experiment. Thank you: Enric Naval for fixing the references and for the comments above, V for understanding and supporting the use of the arXiv ref, and 130.104.236.154 for the Kim reference (even tho I couldn't find the PDF, it looks as if it should be inserted somewhere?)[[User:Aqm2241|Aqm2241]] ([[User talk:Aqm2241|talk]]) 21:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
::::::::: I have reintroduced the recent data. The arXiv ref '''is''' in print in Phys. Rev. C. (There may be 40 journal articles on the topic.) I have altered my text to clarify the nature of the experiment. Thank you: Enric Naval for fixing the references and for the comments above, V for understanding and supporting the use of the arXiv ref, and 130.104.236.154 for the Kim reference (even tho I couldn't find the PDF, it looks as if it should be inserted somewhere?)[[User:Aqm2241|Aqm2241]] ([[User talk:Aqm2241|talk]]) 21:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
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These sentences were recently added: "However, more recent measurements with lower-energy deuterons indicate that extrapolation from high energies is inappropriate (extrapolated rates are much too low). [112] Sufficient low-energy data does not yet exist to allow reliable extrapolation much below the keV range." "The greatly-enhanced reaction rate is attributed to electron screening." |
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I looked at the two abstracts and didn't see that they state that extrapolated rates are much too low, or that low eV extrapolation was unreliable, or that the greatly enhanced reaction rate is attributed to electron screening. Could someone point to full copies or the articles, and to relevant text in the articles, or at least post the relevant sentences? [[User:Olorinish|Olorinish]] ([[User talk:Olorinish|talk]]) 23:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC) |
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== Proposed change to the introduction. == |
== Proposed change to the introduction. == |
Revision as of 23:49, 28 October 2009
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"Lack of accepted explanation using conventional physics"
I propose replacing the section title "Lack of accepted explanation using conventional physics" with something shorter like "Inconsistencies with conventional physics." This topic has been discussed before here. In response to Kevin Bass's last comment, I would say that he is right that using "issues" in this section title would be accurate since it includes the possibilities of criticisms, but that "inconsistencies" would be more accurate and more helpful for readers. What do other people think? Olorinish (talk) 01:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
- Heh, anything with a less blatant POV, but meaning roughly the same thing, is fine with me. That section has the purpose of pointing out places where the known facts don't get along with the idea of nuclear fusion taking place inside basically ordinary solid metal. Fine. But that doesn't automatically/guaranteed mean it can't happen (and that the section should be written from that POV); it MIGHT mean there is an as-yet-unknown fact or two waiting to be discovered. V (talk) 19:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Done. Olorinish (talk) 13:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Secondary sources? II
- I copied this section from the archive, because the question about whether the introduction of a peer-reviewed paper is a secondary source to the extent that it summarizes previous work on the subject is valid and should be discussed if there is any hope of improving the article. 98.210.193.221 (talk) 04:12, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
I have removed it. Anyone who wants to read the old discussion can go here: Talk:Cold_fusion/Archive_34#Secondary_sources? If you want to re-ignite discussion, summarise the previous discussions, or start a new one. --John Vandenberg (chat) 04:24, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
- Fine. The main question (which I feel makes more sense in the context of all the other secondary sources discussed in the deleted section) is: Is the introduction in Kalman et al (2008) a peer-reviewed WP:SECONDARY source to the extent that it is the most recent summary of work on the subject published by a reputable, reliable, high impact factor academic journal?
- In particular, can this excerpt be considered WP:SECONDARY?:
- At the beginning of this decade in several experimental works, solid state environment dependent increment of the cross section of low energy fusion reactions was observed. The full, theoretical explanation of this so-called “screening effect” still seems to be missing. Also, it was about two decades ago that Fleishmann and Pons first published observation of a phenomenon that is today called “cold fusion”. The experimental situation seemed rather controversial and the observations were considered contradictory to basic features of nuclear processes that are thought to be related to the effect. Recently, however, in a sequence of experimental works evidence of tracks of fast charged particles was found, that were emitted from nuclear fusion events in Pd/D during electrolysis and it seems experimentally proved that alpha particles of energy between 11–16 MeV and protons of energy of 1.6 MeV were emitted from palladium chatode.
- 98.210.193.221 (talk) 05:06, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, if it were up to me I'd put that whole paragraph in the intro, with a little copy editing for clarity and style without changing the meaning, and including the original citations to the references. It comprises the most recent de facto secondary source I've seen. 98.210.193.221 (talk) 00:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- Secondary? It certainly is not. What is needed is a type of article known as a "Review", not the introduction to
another experimenta newly proposed theory.LeadSongDog come howl 02:28, 17 September 2009 (UTC)- The paper in question is theory, not an experiment, which I believe does make a slight difference on the question. I disagree, the copy in the introduction of a theory article referring to the previous work in the field meets the WP:SECONDARY criteria just as much as a review or a meta-analysis would. Are there any reasons to the contrary? 68.125.52.101 (talk) 02:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- 98.210.193.221: Check out my edit to the introduction. Does that address your concerns? Olorinish (talk) 04:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- It's a very small step in the right direction, although postulated/proposed makes little difference. 99.27.133.215 (talk) 08:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- Argh. That will teach me not to trust excerpts. Yes, it is a theory article. But it's still primary. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(chemistry)/References_and_external_links#What_to_citeLeadSongDog come howl 07:37, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- That document says that a monograph can be a secondary source. It doesn't say a peer-reviewed monograph, just a monograph. Is there anywhere else in Wikipedia policy or guidelines that agrees? I don't think so. The summary of the last couple decades in Kalman et al (2008) is at least peer reviewed. "Argh"? Is that an expression of "oh geez, all the dominant editors since we started banning the proponents have been wrong and it's making me feel uncomfortable"? 99.27.133.215 (talk) 08:13, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- 98.210.193.221: Check out my edit to the introduction. Does that address your concerns? Olorinish (talk) 04:47, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- The paper in question is theory, not an experiment, which I believe does make a slight difference on the question. I disagree, the copy in the introduction of a theory article referring to the previous work in the field meets the WP:SECONDARY criteria just as much as a review or a meta-analysis would. Are there any reasons to the contrary? 68.125.52.101 (talk) 02:33, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- Secondary? It certainly is not. What is needed is a type of article known as a "Review", not the introduction to
I think it's really unproductive for you to pretend that you're some random IP user. Please log into your account. With regards to your point, propose a concrete change to the article and we will consider it. Untill then, I strongly suggest that every user here remember that this article is under sanction, and trying to right past wrongs ("all the dominant editors since we started banning the proponents") is at odds with the goals of talk pages. Hipocrite (talk) 12:41, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- I have a question for editors 98.210.193.221, 68.125.52.101, and 99.27.133.215: Have you ever edited with a named wikipedia account? Whether you have or not, I would really appreciate it if you would edit using an account. Thanks. Olorinish (talk) 13:11, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- That would indeed be helpful. See the definition of monograph to understand why this isn't one. "Argh" simply expresses me kicking myself for an obvious error made in haste. LeadSongDog come howl 13:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
- Given the record of bans from and because of this article, how could revealing editor identities possibly be expected to improve the quality here? What we need are editors with the courage to resist the hegemony by improving the article in accordance with the secondary peer-reviewed literature. Whether we know who they are is, at this point, likely counter-productive. 98.210.193.221 (talk) 19:00, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
- That would indeed be helpful. See the definition of monograph to understand why this isn't one. "Argh" simply expresses me kicking myself for an obvious error made in haste. LeadSongDog come howl 13:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
"Proposed explanations" section
I could use some help with this section. Does anyone know of good references that describe deuterium nuclei implanted in palladium, quantum tunneling of deuterium nuclei, electrochemistry that drives deuterium nuclei, that sort of thing? Thanks. Olorinish (talk) 21:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
- There are some of those crossed out at the top of this page, if they haven't been archived yet. Try a Ctrl-F search on "proposed explanations". Why is "Non-nuclear explanations for excess heat" listed under "Experimental details" instead of "Proposed explanations"? 99.191.74.42 (talk) 06:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
I, for one, think the article is easier to read with the "Non-nuclear explanations for excess heat" section near the excess heat section. They both describe details of experiments, while the discussion section at the end describes the big picture. Olorinish (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Contamination as the cause of 'new' heavy metals
In what may be another excellent effort, D. Kidwell and coworkers have ‘gone the extra mile’ and discovered that the claimed production of Pr in deuterium flow through Pd membrane experiments may well be due to contamination. The abstracts of talks to be given at ICCF15 is posted to the Web (http://iccf15.frascati.enea.it/docs/Abstracts-11-9.pdf), and in it (Session 3, talk O_6) an abstract states that the NRL lab has conducted a study where samples that were supposed to have produced transmutation were examined at the NRL lab and at another lab that has claimed prior success (MHI). When NRL found no Pr when MHI did, a Pr contamination was found at the MHI lab where the analyses for Pr were conducted. In other words, the lab that claimed to have detected Pr produced by heavy metal transmutation was in fact contaminated with the very element they found! Surprising isn’t it (not to chemists).
This note is posted to illustrate to Wiki editors that the idea of contamination as the source of ‘transmutation products’ is normal, everyday chemical thinking, not OR or anything like it. I will not be responding to comments on this, as my only point is what I just said. Kirk shanahan (talk) 15:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- I tend to agree that nuclear transmutations for any elements other than hydrogen, and natural radioactives, is very much more unlikely than for hydrogen and natural radioactives, unless lots of neutrons become present for who-knows-what-reason. Most atoms simply have too many electrons in the way, keeping their nuclei apart, for transforming events to happen to them. V (talk) 16:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
- Oh certainly contamination is the more likely source, all things being equal, and steps should be taken to rule it out. (And noone here is arguing that contamination is some kind of exotic process -- that's a straw man.) And it is not OR to mention the possibility of contamination and briefly discuss it. In fact, I believe the article already does that. The problem comes in when one narrates an opinion on it without explicitly attributing that opinion to notable, reliable, third-party sources. Kevin Baastalk 13:45, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- And btw, i don't recall mention of Pr - i do recall mention of Molybedumum as a "product", which is quite rare, making it an unlikely contaminant, and also that the molybedumum was exactly 2 alpha particles above the "source", which makes it a rare isotope of molybedumum - i'd be surprised to find any significant quantities of a rare earth metal in a lab (save in a labelled canister), and even more surprised to find rare isotopes of one - did they check the atomic weight of the contaminants they found? I'd be very interested. I'd also be interested in learning about the experiment they're refuting. I suppose I should read the link provided. Kevin Baastalk 13:58, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, read it. sounds like they are checking the atomic weight (ref. words like "characteristic" and "signature" when refering to an element). it makes them look kinda sloppy, actually - why would they prepare the samples in different places, anyways? i think they should do that contamination search for the moylbedumum, too. Kevin Baastalk 14:09, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
- MoS2 is used in UHV systems to grease the threads of the bolts used on the Conflat flanges to prevent galling after bakeout. It is very common in UHV systems, which 90% of surface analysis techniques require. Kirk shanahan (talk) 14:14, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
Probability of Reaction
I had added material (2008 ref) to update a sentence that was based on old references (2000 and earlier):
20:54, 23 October 2009 Aqm2241 (talk | contribs) (89,438 bytes) (Updated item 1 in discussion section. A lot of low-energy work has been carried out in the last decade.)
The added material:
However, more recent low-energy measurements indicate that extrapolation from high energies is inappropriate (extrapolated rates are much too low). [1] Sufficient low-energy data does not yet exist to allow reliable extrapolation much below the keV range.
In "undoing" the new material and reference, Hipocrite invited me to explain why I had added the material. (Perhaps in reading this more recent reference of a decade of research he got a wrong impression.) However, I am not sure what he meant by his remark:
21:00, 23 October 2009 Hipocrite (talk | contribs) (88,810 bytes) (This study appears to go the other way. Please explain on talk. Thanks.)
Perhaps, I need to rewrite the sentence to remove any ambiguity.
Also, I am unable to access the reference in the present text, so I cannot tell what is meant by "high energy." Given the date, it could be many MeV. It is unlikely to be below 25 keV. Since the region of concern is in the eV regime, more recent data from the 3-10 keV region should be important if it differs from the extrapolated values for that energy.
I realize that I should also include a reference to the arXiv papers that would be accessible to all. I think that I can find one that is also in a refereed journal.
Aqm2241 (talk) 10:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Offhand, I'd say that "probability of reaction" is not being appropriately connected to the particle energies, by your modification. See, the products of high-temperature reactions have certain energies (mostly MeV stuff), and no other products or reaction pathways are known to exist. Since in CF experiments the known high-energy products are typically not seen, there is a tendency to conclude that fusion could not be happening. On the other hand, there are all those measurements of excess heat, which need explaining. About the only explanation that makes sense, provided fusion is actually occurring, is, "There is some other reaction pathway than the known/standard three." Such an alternate reaction path could perhaps spread appropriate MeVs of energy among more particles, such that each recipient only has KeV of energy. If the research you are talking about is detecting KeV-energy particles, then it needs to detect ENOUGH of them to add up to the total normal MeV released by fusion. Because deuterium fusion ALWAYS releases a total amount of energy measurable in MeV. V (talk) 16:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- Source was Czerski, K.; et al. (2008), "Measurements of enhanced electron screening in d+d reactions under UHV conditions", J. Phys. G: Nucl. Part. Phys., no. 35, doi:10.1088/0954-3899/35/1/014012
{{citation}}
: Explicit use of et al. in:|first=
(help)
- Source was Czerski, K.; et al. (2008), "Measurements of enhanced electron screening in d+d reactions under UHV conditions", J. Phys. G: Nucl. Part. Phys., no. 35, doi:10.1088/0954-3899/35/1/014012
- I quote what look like the relevant parts:
- From the abstract "The total cross sections and angular distributions of the 2H(d,p)3H and 2H(d,n)3He reactions have been measured using a deuteron beam of energies between 8 and 30 keV provided by an electron cyclotron resonance ion source with excellent long-term stability."
- "2. Experimental setup. (...) The Zr target (foil, 1 mm thick) was implanted up to the saturation level close to the chemical stoichiometric ratio of about two (two deuterium atoms per one metal atom). (...)"
- "Before the yield measurements started, the target surface was cleaned by means of surface sputtering using 10 keV Ar+ ions. Atomic cleanness of the target surface could be controlled applying Auger electron spectroscopywhich is sensitive for a surface contamination smaller than one monolayer. (...)"
- "The ultra-high vacuum has been achieved by a differential pumping system allowing to reduce the gas pressure at the ECR ion source of 2 × 10−7 mbar to a value of 5 × 10−10 mbar in the target chamber. The partial pressure of water vapour—the main source of target oxidation—amounted to about 5 × 10−11 mbar. In spite of the UHV conditions, the target surface had to be sputtered in intervals of several hours of deuteron irradiation, which enhanced the complexity of the experimental procedures. (...)"
- "4 Discussion and conclusions. (...) The determined screening energy Ue = 319 ± 3 eV is close to the value of 297 ± 8 eV obtained previously under poorer vacuum conditions [1]. Thus, our UHV experiment confirms the large Ue for the Zr target and does not support the result achieved by the LUNA collaboration of Ue < 40 eV. The same group has recently determined a higher value of the screening energy for Zr of 209 eV (...) measured, however, at an increased target temperature of 200 deg C and with a relatively small target-deuteron density.(...)."
- --Enric Naval (talk) 17:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK, then I've managed to misunderstand what was being originally talked about in this Section. The actual subject is the amount of kinetic energy needed to overcome electrostatic repulsion such that fusion could happen at all. I'm fairly sure MeVs of energy are not needed for that; I'm pretty sure a Farnsworth-Hirsch Fusor creates ion energes of perhaps 20KeV (there is a statement in the fusor article that for deuterium-tritium fusion, 4KeV suffices). I'm interpreting the idea here as indicating that if two deuteron beams collide inside some foil, the properties of the foil reduce the required beam energy, for fusion to occur. If true, cool! --but I need more data to be sure they are actually on-to-something. V (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- keV deuterons can fuse. However, the high-energy data indicates that the probability drops exponentially with incident beam energy. The new data (below 10 keV) indicates that the probability stops dropping in this region. Therefore, the extrapolation from higher energies is incorrect. Since I am unable to access reference 111, and references 108 - 110 are simply not in the bibliography, I have no way of checking the statements. Unless, these reference problems are corrected, the whole section should be rewritten. (It probably should be anyhow, since there are more reasons why the data is incompatible with fusion as viewed by conventional physics.)
- V has misinterpreted the experiment which is a simple deuteron beam implanting deuterium into a target and then bombarding that implanted deuterium with deuterium of the same and other energies. The fusion rate is low and thus the statistics are poor without long runs. Long runs give time for contamination to build up. This is the reason for use of the new UHV system. However, they confirm (at least some of) the earlier results showing much higher fusion rates than predicted for low energy interactions. These are very careful conventional nuclear physics experiments that show that earlier predictions (based on extrapolation to this region) to be incorrect. If some predictions based on prior conventional results are wrong, then others are likely to be as well.
- I am sure that Hipocrite does not want such papers in the section. However, he has not yet had a comment. Being a newbie in the Wikipedia, can I revert to my addition or amplify/clarify this important contribution? I would probably use this 2008 arXiv ref that is a preprint of a Phys. Rev C article. http://arxiv.org/abs/0805.4538 Aqm2241 (talk) 14:30, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- I fixed the refs 108-110. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hipocrite, the new guy Aqm2241 says this particular Arxiv article is a preprint of something that supposedly eventually appeared (or will appear; how long from May 2008 to actual publication?) in Physical Review C. I'd like to know, if an article is accepted for publication in an RS journal, why the article cannot be referenced before actual publication takes place? One advantage of Arxiv appears to be that articles are accessible without being a registered journal subscriber. So if the article has actually been published, it could be beneficial to Wikipedia readers, to prefer to link to the preprint instead of to the actual article. V (talk) 16:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also, if you are failing to see the connection to the cold fusion article, remember that one of the main arguments against the possibility that it can happen, that argument is derived from a low probability that the reaction can happen at low particle energies. The phrase "50 orders of magnitude" has been in the article for quite some time. The evidence offered by Aqm2241 would indicate that that "50" is significantly larger than whatever actually is the correct value, when deuterons exist inside metal. I won't say that a lower number automatically means CF must be real; I do say that this new data would weaken that particular argument against CF. V (talk) 21:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hypocrite is asking for a reliable source that relates observation of increased fusion rates in metals to the cold fusion subject. Here is such a source : Kim YE, "Theory of Bose-Einstein condensation mechanism for deuteron-induced nuclear reactions in micro/nano-scale metal grains and particles.", Naturwissenschaften. 2009 Jul;96(7):803-11. You can find the PDF by searching the title on google. 130.104.236.154 (talk) 12:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- "anomalous deuteron-induced nuclear reactions in metals at low energies" not the same as "cold fusion", I suppose, because it's not electrolysis, but cold-fusion supporters consider it a related effect that helps to demonstrate the possibility of CF?. Page 13 of McKubre's report to DOE 2004 had half a page describing similar experiments [1](page 14). --Enric Naval (talk) 16:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have reintroduced the recent data. The arXiv ref is in print in Phys. Rev. C. (There may be 40 journal articles on the topic.) I have altered my text to clarify the nature of the experiment. Thank you: Enric Naval for fixing the references and for the comments above, V for understanding and supporting the use of the arXiv ref, and 130.104.236.154 for the Kim reference (even tho I couldn't find the PDF, it looks as if it should be inserted somewhere?)Aqm2241 (talk) 21:16, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
These sentences were recently added: "However, more recent measurements with lower-energy deuterons indicate that extrapolation from high energies is inappropriate (extrapolated rates are much too low). [112] Sufficient low-energy data does not yet exist to allow reliable extrapolation much below the keV range." "The greatly-enhanced reaction rate is attributed to electron screening."
I looked at the two abstracts and didn't see that they state that extrapolated rates are much too low, or that low eV extrapolation was unreliable, or that the greatly enhanced reaction rate is attributed to electron screening. Could someone point to full copies or the articles, and to relevant text in the articles, or at least post the relevant sentences? Olorinish (talk) 23:49, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Proposed change to the introduction.
I revert the addition of this sentence to the introduction:
- It did, however, find that the observation of excess heat can be reproduced at will under the proper conditions, and that many of the reasons for failure to reproduce it have been discovered.
I did it because I don't think the first part is accurate, and because the second part does not convey the message of the 2004 report accurately. Am I missing something? Olorinish (talk) 04:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmmm. In other words, the text that Olorinish took out could instead have been clarified, to indicate that it was a statement made by cold fusion proponents in 2004 when they were requesting a second DOE review. Appended to that text could be a sentence about the review occurring, but also disagreeing (something like 2:1 ratio of panelists) with the proponents' view. Fine. I say such clarifications are a superior thing to do, in an encyclopedia, than the removal of information. By definition, after all, an encyclopedia is supposed to be encyclopedic ("complete") --and information-removal, historically, has far more often been indicative of a POV agenda, than it has been about error-correction. Because if 1/3 of the panelists tended to agree with the proponents on this issue, then that should mean the experimenters have managed SOME increase in reliability since 1989 (just not as much as claimed). V (talk) 16:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Stresses
I read where the electrodes they used has internal stresses which were relieved durign the experiment, releasing energy. Jokem (talk) 16:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Czerski 2008, greatly enhanced reaction rate is attributed to electron screening