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Well, I have added aproximately a metric busload of links/sources and did some further modifications to the article to adress some of the perceived problems. But I must remind everyone: If you find something is wrong with an article, fix it. For stuff that anyone who is even halfway informed can find readily believeable, and knowing that it is sourced already about 20 times, I do not find it necessary to add more sources. Especially not for things that have their own Wiki article and thus, their own sources. You can do something as well and try to contribute to Wikipedia. Hell, some of the things are 1:1 copies from the current article and you request sources for those from me? I'm not going to let me being filibustered by fringe view POV pushers. Contribute or stay out! Sorry for the combative tone, but it is very frustrating to produce an useful article like this. [[User:Dabljuh|Dabljuh]] 06:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC) |
Revision as of 06:32, 12 January 2006
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive 1 (partly refactored)
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive_2
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive_3
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive 4
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive 5
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive 6
- Talk:Circumcision/Archive 7 (Archived all serious discussion concluded by Dec. 1, 2005 (with a tongue-in-cheek comment made Dec. 8, 2005 included as well...)
very little mention of female circumcision this should be adressed as the term applies to both male and female
Links to photos
The two photos are clearly of uncircumcised penises. This may be useful for demonstrating to those of us who are not the proprietors of foreskins what one looks like in both unretracted and retracted conditions. But it doesn't demonstrate what a circumcised penis looks like. There is, however, a perfectly good photo of a circumcised penis in the same scale in the archives. Surely someone with better editing skills than I possess can attend to substituting it for the second photo of an uncircumcised penis which is now on the page. Masalai 23:48, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
- Indeed.09:18, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
- Pending someone actually posting a photo of a circumcised penis I corrected the image label. Benami 03:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- An excellent idea and a considerable improvement. Actually it would be better to have a photo of a circumcised penis added as a third photo rather than replacing the previously incorrectly labeled one.Masalai 06:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'll leave that to someone else. While there's no shortage of such images on the internet, I don't know how to go about adressing the copyright issue for photos, and I'm not about to submit a photo of my own penis. :-) Benami 07:13, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- Nor getting into a hoo-ha with those who beg -- no, demand -- to differ! The copyright issue seems to be almost insurmountable other than with respect to those that are so ancient that they have entered the public domain. However, it would indeed be useful to have the three photos, and that hadn't even occurred to me till you corrected the caption on the two that were already there. Masalai 09:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- How about adding these two pictures from the French Wikipedia? The french bit underneath says they're public domain and free to be used and/or modified. I think they both demonstrate what the difference is excellently. 64.231.115.78 00:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Penis_.jpg http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Sexe_male_penis.jpg
Reversions
Jayjg, if you think the article is not NPOV, please follow TShilo12's example and edited the article instead of reverting it. There is no need to go back to the 10 December 2005 version. Also a reversion should not be marked as a minor edit, especially for a controversial topic like circumcision.
- Marking a major change as a minor one is considered poor etiquette, especially if the change involves the deletion of some text.
- Reversions of pages are not likely to be considered minor edits under most circumstances.
Please do not mark significant changes, including reversions, as minor edits. -- DanBlackham 01:51, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
- The changes were neither NPOV, nor discussed in Talk: first. Reverts are minor edits by default; if you have any concerns about the use of the minor edit flag, please take them up with Rood, who completely POVd the introduction using both the flag and using a misleading edit summary. And if you think any of Rood's POV terminology (e.g. "natural, intact penis", "fetishistic") or unsourced claims (e.g. "the individual, over time, might occasionally consider multiple circumcisions to be desirable") belong, please make a case for them here. Jayjg (talk) 03:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
Is the whole world becoming dumber by the minute?
Why the whole controversy? Cutting off a sensible part of an infant or young boy's penis without any medicinal indication is sexual abuse and a human rights violation. The essence of the matter can be identified within minutes by a little bit of a priori thinking. Every counter-argument on this page questions my faith in human intelligence. Please, think of the children. Dabljuh 20:39, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
- You're free to hold that POV, of course, but Wikipedia must be neutral. Jakew 21:11, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
The results of this study: [[1]] seem to have been inconclusive. Since there is no definition at all to the "satisfaction" items, I don't think this reference and the statement it is tied to add anything and should be removed. --156.101.1.5 15:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Definitions can be found in the full text, if you care to read it. Nevertheless, it clearly states that circumcised boys scored higher on satisfaction items. Jakew 15:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
- Look, the studies are essentially a posteriori, often flawed and/or intentionally misconducted. If there is no a priori explanation for the results of the study, the study is ultimately worthless. Why should the removal of a highly sensitive part of the penis not reduce sexual satisfaction? Why shouldn't the glans be an internal organ? Why are people happy having to use lube to jerk off comfortably? Why should the chance for an STD transmission be reduced when the penis is less sensitive, has to be trusted harder, and the act is taking longer? Studies that just say 'it is so because we have the statistics' are bad science and to be dismissed. Additionally for every study that is done in favor of intactivists, there's a study in favor of people who like to legitimize mutilating boys. There is a lot of (financial) interest obviously in keeping the public opinion on the side of circumcision, and since you can hardly fake a priori thinking, you have to manufacture studies, and scientifically gullible people buy them. Stop citing studies and just THINK about it for a minute. This was my initial complaint about the state of the article and the talk page.Dabljuh 12:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry that you don't like the studies, Dabljuh, but that's insufficient grounds for excluding them. Wikipedia has certain requirements for sources, with a strong preference for peer-reviewed journals. There is no indication that sources should be censored on vaguely paranoid grounds of suspected (by Wikipedia editors) misconduct or disagreement with the findings. Jakew 12:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- I didn't ask to exclude the studies from WP. I asked to be sceptical towards them and not to use them as a reference when discussing "advantages" or disadvantages of circumcision, when they do not back up their results with a priori models on why this is this way. Why is there nothing about the lack of explanations for the pro-circumcision studies? On the other hand, why aren't the a priori arguments against circumcision treated equally as the a posteriori findings of the studies?
- As a rule of thumb, if a priori and a posteriori do not find the same, either is wrong. They cannot be both right and contradictionary - Usually this means the theoretical model is false and has to be revised (if model and experiment contradict) but in this case, the rational argument against circumcision is so sound, and at the same time, studies are so easily misconducted with a sensible topic like this, that I would recommend very carefully analyzing the studies and taking the theoretical model (of the functioning of the penis) first.
- And then we have female genital mutilation. Horrible Practice. And we have Male circumcision, which is somehow beneficial and improves the sex life and everything. Don't some loud warning bells ring up in your head? All signs point to pro-circumcision studies being total hogwash. THINK, goddammit, just use your head for one second and stop pretending its not a human rights violation what the doctors are doing to our sons.
- So, we have misconducted and unsound studies. I do not accept them as evidence for one or another, without an explanation why! How about you, for once, argue, how exactly a circumcision would be beneficial to a man, and why exactly it should be done on an infant rather than a consenting adult. Dabljuh 16:36, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- Merely calling the studies hogwash, misconducted and unsound is not sufficient. That's illogical. Maybe it would help to talk about specifics. Is there a particular study that you have in mind? If you want an explanation for something, I may know the answer. If not, I'm always happy to research. Jakew 18:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- I do not request to ponder studies. I request for you make real arguments for circumcision, without citing studies. If you do not believe circumcision to be beneficial, you may act as the devil's advocate.Dabljuh 22:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- Merely calling the studies hogwash, misconducted and unsound is not sufficient. That's illogical. Maybe it would help to talk about specifics. Is there a particular study that you have in mind? If you want an explanation for something, I may know the answer. If not, I'm always happy to research. Jakew 18:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry that you don't like the studies, Dabljuh, but that's insufficient grounds for excluding them. Wikipedia has certain requirements for sources, with a strong preference for peer-reviewed journals. There is no indication that sources should be censored on vaguely paranoid grounds of suspected (by Wikipedia editors) misconduct or disagreement with the findings. Jakew 12:19, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
- Look, the studies are essentially a posteriori, often flawed and/or intentionally misconducted. If there is no a priori explanation for the results of the study, the study is ultimately worthless. Why should the removal of a highly sensitive part of the penis not reduce sexual satisfaction? Why shouldn't the glans be an internal organ? Why are people happy having to use lube to jerk off comfortably? Why should the chance for an STD transmission be reduced when the penis is less sensitive, has to be trusted harder, and the act is taking longer? Studies that just say 'it is so because we have the statistics' are bad science and to be dismissed. Additionally for every study that is done in favor of intactivists, there's a study in favor of people who like to legitimize mutilating boys. There is a lot of (financial) interest obviously in keeping the public opinion on the side of circumcision, and since you can hardly fake a priori thinking, you have to manufacture studies, and scientifically gullible people buy them. Stop citing studies and just THINK about it for a minute. This was my initial complaint about the state of the article and the talk page.Dabljuh 12:12, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
To the contrary, Dabljuh, the scientific method hinges on a posteriori studies. It is those that set it apart from mindless babbling and speculation. A hypothesis is presented, then tested; if it tests negative, it's revised. If no suitable revision can be thought up, that doesn't invalidate the study, it just showcases either our lack of imagination or lack of understanding. In this case, presumably, we don't understand the mechanisms of sexual pleasure well enough to propose a good reason for the studies, but that isn't grounds to ignore them.
If you have specific statistical objections to the studies, fine; if you can prove (in the most rigorous logical/mathematical sense) that they're unreliable, then they must be. If you have specific methodological objections to the studies, that's also fine, and those should be considered. And, of course, we should all keep in mind that it's always possible for there to exist methodological flaws we haven't spotted, as we should keep in mind with all studies.
But "I don't understand" is not an option. An infinite number of functions exist that include any finite set of data points, so there can always be something wrong with your theory, no matter how much observation it's based on. Theories are worthless if not considered in isolation of studies; studies, on the other hand, have practical use even if we don't fully understand the results at any given time. This is the reason studies, and not speculative hypotheses, are useful as reliable sources. —Simetrical (talk) 03:04, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Well, this is probably the difference between continental European science tradition and anglo-american scientific tradition. The anglo-american way is much more empirically based than the continental european way. The european way is to develop a model, test it in experiment, find differences, adjust the model, and repeat until the difference are small enough for the model to be acceptable. The anglo-american way seems to go more into the direction that no model must be developed, and instead, the pure empirical data must speak for itself. The flaw of statistics is that they are prone to methodical and systematical errors whose existence may elude the conductors of such a statistic.
- Here I insist we have such a case: We have two models of the workings of the penis. The first one is that the foreskin is a sensible part of the male sexual organ, important to its health, sensitivity, and function, and that its removal therefore would decrease sensitivity and sexual pleasure - to both sides. One may however argue if the increased timespan and roughness of the intercourse, increases the chances of STD transmission more so than the possibly reduced incentive and thus frequence of intercourse.
- The other model says Circumcision is good because its good.
- You may fool the regular fucktard here that easily. I want arguments. The difference between a study and a statistic is that a study also develops an explanation, an a priori model why the results happened. A statistic is just a couple numbers gathered and is easily manipulated, hard to figure out if one is not familiar with the detailed and exact conduct of the sampling, weighting etc. Bullshit models are much easier to debunk.
- There is nothing not to understand about the studies. I want real arguments why circumcision is good, other than "I have studies that..." I want a priori, theoretical, rational arguments why circumcision would be medicinally beneficial, as well as why it would preferrably be done on infants rather than consenting adults. No weaseling around, I demand the answers, now! Dabljuh 03:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Dabljuh, do you honestly believe that this confrontational and combative attitude serves your arguments? Please review WP:CIV. Tomertalk 08:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Why do I still note: nobody has provided my with any argument pro (infant) circumcision? Maybe because there is none? Instead I am being argued against for my decision to dismiss all studies on the subject as inherently flawed. Do you really have no other argument than "We have studies"? And now I am being insulted for not being civilized enough. In my opinion, circumcision is not civilized in any way, dammit! I demand to hear convincing arguments for circumcision! Dabljuh 10:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Dabljuh, do you honestly believe that this confrontational and combative attitude serves your arguments? Please review WP:CIV. Tomertalk 08:20, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey. I was circumcised as an infant. And I'm so happy I was. I don't want a flap of useless skin whapping around on the end of my penis. Yay! It's gone, and I don't have to undergo the trauma of having to undergo the disgusting surgery of having it removed in adulthood. Thanks, Mom and Dad! Believe me, that's the viewpoint of 99.3% of guys who are circumcised. How certain are you that you want to pursue this issue? Tomertalk 10:50, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input, I'm fairly certain I want to pursue the issue. With absolutely no pro (infant) circumcision arguments showing up (other than 'ick its unclean' which I attribute to the greater stupidity principle) and only some studies that are likely to have a systemic bias on the outcome, I further expect to expose circumcision advocates as frauds. I pity the people who had their foreskin removed as a child, but trying to legitimize it through bogus means is not the solution. We must fight, with all means necessary, to prevent that another generation of boys grow up with their schlongs mutilated. For adults, seriously I cannot care less what they do if they find circumcised wangs to look sexier and its worth it to them. What must stop is this whole bad science approach that somehow constructs circumcision into having medical benefits to anyone. But hey - I'm still willing to hear arguments from the pro side, so I might change my opinion. But so far, and judging their reactions, I don't expect to hear much. Dabljuh 11:22, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Interesting though this may be, I honestly can't see what relevance it has to Wikipedia's article, Dabljuh. Can I suggest moving discussion elsewhere? Jakew 12:18, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Er... you do not see arguments pro or contra circumcision (whether they exist or not) relevant to the Wikipedia article? I mean seriously, what the hell? Dabljuh 12:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- No, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. The article isn't there to persuade, only to inform. However, there's nothing to stop us citing arguments for or against from others. Jakew 12:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Oh, don't go WP:NOT on me. Apparently, Wikipedia is not a propaganda vehicle. The article fails to inform that there is apparently no convincing argument pro circumcision, but dozens against. I'm still waiting for arguments pro (infant) circumcision. Are there any? Your continued failure to provide pro (infant) circumcision arguments is beginning to lead me to believe there really aren't any. I'm waiting, but not for long.
- No, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. The article isn't there to persuade, only to inform. However, there's nothing to stop us citing arguments for or against from others. Jakew 12:49, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not an experiment in democracy. Its primary method of finding consensus is discussion, not voting. (from WP:NOT) Dabljuh 13:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Even if there were consensus that "there is apparently no convincing argument pro circumcision, but dozens against," it would still be inappropriate for the article to say so, because that would merely be the opinion of the Wikipedia editors (and it would also violate NPOV policy). Since the article can only report the facts, discussion of our assessment of these facts and our concluding opinions can do nothing to improve the article. This is why I suggest moving discussion elsewhere. Jakew 14:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- It seems clear to me that the article selectively provides facts in favor of circumcision, leaves out the disputed nature of those facts, and totally omits facts that are making a point against circumcision. Since you continously fail to provide any argument pro (infant) circumcision, I make you an ultimatum: Argue with me, convince me, or I will add both a disputed and an npov flag to the article's header. This is perfectly appropriate since we do not appear to have a consensus (Also see WP:Consensus on the matter). Dabljuh 14:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- What changes should be made to the article, in your opinion? Alternatively, what paragraph(s) do you dispute? Jakew 14:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- The easiest solution would be to add a adequately extensive section where the critics of infant circumcision can illustrate what they believe is wrong with (infant)circumcision (and the way it is being advocated). The general bias of the article appears pro circumcision, so to have one single section showing a contra circumcision POV may not be the optimal solution - just the simplest that I could agree on. A more optimal solution might be a complete reworking of the article: Many points that the article makes pro circumcision are disputed by intactivists and would have to be offset by counter-arguments from the intactivist side, and vice versa, to display the issue in a more balanced light. The current state of the article is unacceptably biased. If you can think of better solutions that I could be happy with, go ahead. And even if we can agree on reworking the article and reach a consensus, I would still like to argue about the subject just out of, well, call it curiousity. If we can create a good debate, we may be able to post a readable summary of it in the article. I can imagine that such a count-counterpoint argument may be more enlightening to a casual reader about the dangers and benefits of circumcision than a whole section bashing the practice unstopped, or an entire article becoming unreadable due to bickering and weasling happening in every other sentence. Dabljuh 16:33, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- On second thought, I believe the real solution can only be an approach of both: Dedicate a section to the intactivists' arguments, and remove or counter-point some of the really more disputable pro circumcision arguments in the article. Dabljuh
- It's perfectly ok to create a section noting arguments that have been made in reliable sources, but to include arguments from the talk page would be original research. It would obviously be expected that any rebuttals to these arguments (that have been made in reliable sources) would also be included. I see no reason why the same should not be true of pro-circumcision statements, and if you have specific citations to counter-arguments in mind, please share them.
- As for the debate, I'm happy to discuss, but let's move it to Talk:Circumcision/debate so that this page can focus on the article. Jakew 17:45, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Very well, lets debate! I have decided as a fun twist to the whole thing, you will be arguing for the intactivists, and I will be arguing as a circumcision advocate. I have roughly laid down the rules there, you may talk back to me and we can discuss them if you feel you cannot comply to them. Dabljuh 18:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Well, I'm still waiting for some type of reaction. As a side note, just stating the obvious and concluding the not so obvious (which is what every good argument does) doesn't count as Original Research. That's just using your nut - Something even Wikipedia doesn't have a rule against yet. Dabljuh 01:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
- Sorry, I can't seem to find that exception in the relevant policies. Have I missed something? Jakew 13:09, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
- What changes should be made to the article, in your opinion? Alternatively, what paragraph(s) do you dispute? Jakew 14:35, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- It seems clear to me that the article selectively provides facts in favor of circumcision, leaves out the disputed nature of those facts, and totally omits facts that are making a point against circumcision. Since you continously fail to provide any argument pro (infant) circumcision, I make you an ultimatum: Argue with me, convince me, or I will add both a disputed and an npov flag to the article's header. This is perfectly appropriate since we do not appear to have a consensus (Also see WP:Consensus on the matter). Dabljuh 14:16, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
- Even if there were consensus that "there is apparently no convincing argument pro circumcision, but dozens against," it would still be inappropriate for the article to say so, because that would merely be the opinion of the Wikipedia editors (and it would also violate NPOV policy). Since the article can only report the facts, discussion of our assessment of these facts and our concluding opinions can do nothing to improve the article. This is why I suggest moving discussion elsewhere. Jakew 14:00, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Potentially unexpected images
I think we should be cautious about the inclusion of images of genitalia which the reader may not be expecting to see when following links to the page -- particularly if the reader is, for example, following links from pages about religious topics, and uncertain of the meaning of the term "circumcision" prior to coming to this page. In particular, given the range of ages of readers and the range of jurisdictions within which they may be residing, we should err on the side of caution. I am therefore going to replace the inline images with links to images. The images will still be available, but the reader will only reach them after following a link which makes it obvious what to expect. This is not censorship; it is just allowing readers to make an informed choice about whether to view the images, along the same lines that we already have spoiler warnings. TerraGreen 22:02, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think it is most vital to show the pictures for comparison, as many visitors to the page will do so for the first time, and may not be sure whether they are actually circumcised themselves or not. But this is obviously my (male) POV on the subject. I remember, long ago, when I was wondering about circumcision the first time, it took me quite a while to figure out what exactly it is. The pictures in this article are very descriptive and informative and will explain faster and more efficiently than an abstract sentence like "... the foreskin is missing". I know, I would have been thankful for such a simple and handy explanation what it actually is. One issue with circumcision is that most people are not aware of their status. Uncircumcised people may wonder why male porn stars look so different down there, and circumcised men may not realize their condition is not one they are born with. Also, we generally do not have enough pictures of penises on wikipedia, but various anonymous editors are helpful with this issue. There's few pages where having a picture of a penis is more justified than on the circumcision page. Dabljuh 00:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with you completely about their informative value; the only issue is whether to show them inline or by means of links. Of course if the reader has arrived here by following a link from a page which is already sexual or anatomical in theme, e.g. masturbation, they can't be too surprised to encounter inline images of penises. But there are links here from many other pages such as Acts of the Apostles, and (as I said before) the readers of such pages may not understand the nature of circumcision prior to visiting this page. I think it is a simple courtesy to give people the choice about whether to view the images or not. (Note that I am not equating religion with prudishness; the same would apply to links from any pages which are not sexual or anatomical in theme). TerraGreen 07:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- the readers of such pages may not understand the nature of circumcision prior to visiting this page That is exactly why I would leave the pictures in place. Nothing describes circumcision as good as a picture, aside maybe from a video showing the procedure. I agree with you on the choice argument, my POV is that, sadly, not enough people are really aware of their status or about circumcision in general. As such I am most interested in having an informative article, even when just looked at for the glimpse of an eye. I do not find the issue as a whole to be of too great importance however, either would be acceptable. But: Any page with anatomical details can be linked to by any other page, for various reasons, and thus the same rationale would command a general "no genitals directly in the article" rule for the entire wikipedia. Lacking such a rule, I find the "hidden" pictures inconsequential. Maybe we could argue about a kid's version of the circumcision article (and any others), that religious articles could link to? As a final, religious note: since god is so obsessed with foreskin in his best selling book, he wouldn't complain about some tasty pictures of it either. Its his own fault really. Dabljuh 08:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think much of your argument could be used as an argument also against having plot spoiler warnings, but the consensus is that spoiler warnings should be included. I think the principles here are strongly analogous: with spoiler warnings, we simply recognise the fact that a substantial number of readers are likely not to wish to view particular content, and so simply as a courtesy — while neither agreeing or disagreeing with the POV of whether it is good for readers to view such content — we give those readers a reasonable opportunity not to view it. (Of course the actual mechanism differs from the case of spoiler warnings, because we can assume that a page with spoilers will generally be read in a roughly linear fashion, whereas images catch the eye, as you say.) I take your point about links being possible from anywhere for whatever reason, and yes probably I would therefore conclude that inline images of genitalia are to be avoided in general. Incidentally, your final point about religion is not relevant to my reasoning against inline images, as I already made clear; my point applies equally well to the link from Maasai for example. TerraGreen 12:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think the only thing that should be taken into account is wikipedia's policy, or rather with the possible lack thereof, the general usage of this issue. So that the inlining of potentially offensive pictures is done consequentially and not just arbitrarily for some articles and not for others. You may find it to be useful in the long run to actually create/propose a (reasonable) wikipedia policy on this. However I do not find spoiler warnings a satisfying analogy, because King Kong dies at the end and it doesn't really ruin it for anyone. How about a warning template instead: "Warning, this penis-related page may contain penis" Dabljuh 13:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I think much of your argument could be used as an argument also against having plot spoiler warnings, but the consensus is that spoiler warnings should be included. I think the principles here are strongly analogous: with spoiler warnings, we simply recognise the fact that a substantial number of readers are likely not to wish to view particular content, and so simply as a courtesy — while neither agreeing or disagreeing with the POV of whether it is good for readers to view such content — we give those readers a reasonable opportunity not to view it. (Of course the actual mechanism differs from the case of spoiler warnings, because we can assume that a page with spoilers will generally be read in a roughly linear fashion, whereas images catch the eye, as you say.) I take your point about links being possible from anywhere for whatever reason, and yes probably I would therefore conclude that inline images of genitalia are to be avoided in general. Incidentally, your final point about religion is not relevant to my reasoning against inline images, as I already made clear; my point applies equally well to the link from Maasai for example. TerraGreen 12:17, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- the readers of such pages may not understand the nature of circumcision prior to visiting this page That is exactly why I would leave the pictures in place. Nothing describes circumcision as good as a picture, aside maybe from a video showing the procedure. I agree with you on the choice argument, my POV is that, sadly, not enough people are really aware of their status or about circumcision in general. As such I am most interested in having an informative article, even when just looked at for the glimpse of an eye. I do not find the issue as a whole to be of too great importance however, either would be acceptable. But: Any page with anatomical details can be linked to by any other page, for various reasons, and thus the same rationale would command a general "no genitals directly in the article" rule for the entire wikipedia. Lacking such a rule, I find the "hidden" pictures inconsequential. Maybe we could argue about a kid's version of the circumcision article (and any others), that religious articles could link to? As a final, religious note: since god is so obsessed with foreskin in his best selling book, he wouldn't complain about some tasty pictures of it either. Its his own fault really. Dabljuh 08:08, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I agree with you completely about their informative value; the only issue is whether to show them inline or by means of links. Of course if the reader has arrived here by following a link from a page which is already sexual or anatomical in theme, e.g. masturbation, they can't be too surprised to encounter inline images of penises. But there are links here from many other pages such as Acts of the Apostles, and (as I said before) the readers of such pages may not understand the nature of circumcision prior to visiting this page. I think it is a simple courtesy to give people the choice about whether to view the images or not. (Note that I am not equating religion with prudishness; the same would apply to links from any pages which are not sexual or anatomical in theme). TerraGreen 07:02, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
To those for whom this is an issue: please take it up at WP:VP, not here. Your chances of establishing a policy on this page will be much bolstered by an en:wp-wide policy. For another approach to this issue, check out the solution on fr:wp (at fr:pénis, for example). Tomertalk 23:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
- I like the French solution. I think I'll be bold and add it for now. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
- Er, wait, I see that Terra Green's solution hasn't been reverted. Never mind. In the event we want to use a template, here's a sample:
<div style="float: left; margin-left: 1em; padding: 5px 5px 0px 5px; background-color: beige;" valign="center"> [[Image:Warning icon.png|left|]] ''Warning: This page contains uncensored images of male genitalia.'' </div> <br style="clear: both;" />
That shows up as:
Warning: This page contains uncensored images of male genitalia.
(To avoid GFDL attribution problems in the unlikely event this is used, I hereby irrevocably allow unrestricted use of the above.) —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
Uhm, "policy or lack thereof?" WP:NOT. Wikipedia is not censored for the protection of minors. Wikipedia can not guarantee adherence to regional or cultural social norms. It may shock some of the conservatives contributing to this article, but most of the world (even most of the English-speaking world) is not shocked by penis. For example, children up to age 10 usually play naked in city parks in Berlin, Germany! It is informative and appropriate to pictorially depict circumcision in an article on circumcision.
In my opinion, it is insulting to suggest that a reader would not expect an image of circumcision when following a link to a Wikipedia article labeled circumcision. We should not assume the reader is excessively naive. —Daelin @ 2006–01–09 09:38Z
Fringe Views
Lets make a short assessment what constitutes a mainstream view and what a fringe view is on this by Wikipedia's WP:NPOVUW statement.
- Infant circumcision is not recommended by any national or international medical/health organization, and outlawed in some scandinavian countries. It is thus clearly the relevant majority view.
- Since the scientific medical community does not recommend routine infant circumcision, circumcisions performed on infants and children are only explainable due to cultural reasons (Religion, Aesthetics). This clearly belongs to the article and is not actually a POV item.
- Sexually mutilating children for cultural reasons, since it has no benefits that outweight the risks, would constitute a human rights violation and sexual child abuse. However this view is shared by fewer scientists. This is a minority view.
- Finally, the fringe view on infant circumcision is that it is beneficial and should be widely done.
Time for a {NPOV}-Check ? Happy Holidays! Dabljuh 16:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- Fortunately, the article does not endorse any of these views. However, I should note that a lack of recommendation is not a view in the usual sense. A recommendation against would be a view, but few, if any, organisations have expressed that. Moreover, several organisations, such as the AAP, recommend that parents make a decision on the basis of religious and cultural factors in addition to the medical factors. Jakew 16:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the article gives undue weight to the arguments of the fringe groups and emphasizes the supposed medical benefits of circumcision that are promoted by those groups. The AAP does not lack a recommendation for or against infant decapitation either. The AAP however advocates vaccines as far as I know. See how the system works? The article does not represent adequately the mainstream view in the scientific and medical community, which is that routine infant circumcision is medically useless at best, and a human rights violation at worst, and instead concentrates on the arguments of the fringe groups that endorse and advocate routine infant circumcision. It thus grossly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. As a sidenote, WHO and Amnesty International have expressed their opposition to female genital mutilation, as you probably know, but are reluctant to act on male genital mutilation for reasons that I could only speculate on. However, the supposed "medical benefits" of male genital mutilation are certainly not one of them, as there is not one national or international health/medical organization that would share that fringe group POV. Dabljuh 17:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- If it is a "mainstream view" in the scientific and medical community that routine infant circumcision is "a human rights violation," then it should be trivial to find scholarly sources that state this clearly. Nandesuka 17:48, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- There can be little doubt that most if not all medical organisations acknowledge at least some benefits of circumcision in their policy statements. For example: "In summary, all studies that have examined the association between UTI and circumcision status show an increased risk of UTI in uncircumcised males, with the greatest risk in infants younger than 1 year of age. ... There is at least a threefold increased risk of penile cancer in uncircumcised men; phimosis, a condition that exists only in uncircumcised men, increases this risk further. ... Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there are potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child." -- AAP, 1999
- Discussion of the same cannot, therefore, be considered a 'fringe view'. Jakew 18:32, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, the article gives undue weight to the arguments of the fringe groups and emphasizes the supposed medical benefits of circumcision that are promoted by those groups. The AAP does not lack a recommendation for or against infant decapitation either. The AAP however advocates vaccines as far as I know. See how the system works? The article does not represent adequately the mainstream view in the scientific and medical community, which is that routine infant circumcision is medically useless at best, and a human rights violation at worst, and instead concentrates on the arguments of the fringe groups that endorse and advocate routine infant circumcision. It thus grossly violates Wikipedia's NPOV policy. As a sidenote, WHO and Amnesty International have expressed their opposition to female genital mutilation, as you probably know, but are reluctant to act on male genital mutilation for reasons that I could only speculate on. However, the supposed "medical benefits" of male genital mutilation are certainly not one of them, as there is not one national or international health/medical organization that would share that fringe group POV. Dabljuh 17:13, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
In the case of circumcision, where opinions are so polarised, the use of the term fringe view is problematical. It far too easily lends itself to use by each side to demonise the other. It is better to concentrate on giving a fair account of the evidence and of the opinions of medical bodies. Michael Glass 21:34, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Nope, the state of affairs is fairly obvious: Circumcision is not endorsed, merely tolerated by the scientific Mainstream. The minority view is one that completely agrees with the medical side, but goes further and adds an ethical point: in drawing the conclusion that since it is just not medically recommendable, chopping a part of some infant's wang off it is a human rights violation, a sex crime and child abuse. Meaning, the only difference to the mainstream is that they do not tolerate circumcision on children. The fringe view however is the one that totally opposes the mainstream view, and obviously the minority view, and rambles about how incredibly beneficial circumcision is and why they should be allowed to do it to everyone. For your argument "There are benefits" there are countless more benefits from castration acknowledged by the mainstream too. Yet no responsible doctor would recommend castration as a way to improve one's life to everyone, and few would actually do the procedure to a willing, healthy adult. But then there are the fringe views that figure, castration is for EVERYONE! Of course if you ask 6 billion humans, you're going to find advocates of everything. Better example? Trepanation. It is not up to Wikipedians in analyzing the medical data. That's what we have doctors for, and the mainstream opinion in the medical community is without a doubt, that circumcision is not recommended - at the very best. And that's why we have WP:NPOVUW. Just because some nutbag on TV shouts about global warming being a hoax, it doesn't change that the scientific community has no doubts about it happening. It does not mean both parties should be treated equally in the article about it. Dabljuh 22:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Ok, here's the thing. Despite medical evidence, a large part (though not the majority, of course) of the english speaking, potential wikipedia readers, is circumcised. That is why there need to be some of those fringe view arguments in the article, because they want to read them. The important part is that the article as a whole, does not distort the reflection of what the opinion of the medical mainstream is. That the article, as a whole, makes it prominently clear that the medical community does not see any (medical) reason to circumcise. And with less prominence, the opinion of a group that agrees with the mainstream in the medical, and just raises the (important?) ethical question of performing the procedure on infants. Right now the article just reads like a more or less subtle circumcicisionist pamphlet, and thus, violates the NPOV policy. Dabljuh 04:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Dabiljuh, if you feel that the article as a whole or any particular part of the article is biased, do your best to remedy this defect. I look forward to reading and considering your contributions. Michael Glass 04:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
- The subject is controversial. I would happily rewrite or reorganize the entire article or large parts of it myself, but I want the support and understanding of doing so, not only from people who are sharing my POV, but also of those who do not - for example, Nandesuka and Jakew. Even though they seem to be supporting what I reasonably consider fringe views and have no problems making the article a circumcision advocacy lovefest, even they can understand, not just as wikipedians, but also as sceptical minds, that a rewrite is necessary, and that the article needs to be more balanced. This is why I request their support (and maybe from others, just the whole crowd of people somewhat knowledgeable about the subject) for a rewrite. Wikipedia is a project that works on consensus and before starting an edit war, I want to make sure we all pull the same rope. Also, I'm not a particularly good writer, grammar/spelling and the such, for those reasons I would also prefer to have help rewriting the article (I've been told I'm writing with an accent). Ultimately, I am, myself, biased on the subject and while I can try to write in a due neutral way about the subject, I will need some help straightening things out. This is what makes consensus politics great. Nobody gets really what they want, but nobody can take reasoned offence in the result either. Dabljuh 07:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Uncircumcised = non-Christian?
The intro to the article makes the claim that religious use of the word "uncircumcised" means non-Jewish or, more rarely, non-Christian. Sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I've seen the word used to describe non-Muslims on occasion, but never non-Christians. Any references?Benami 09:24, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Right. I'm changing the sentence. Benami 01:13, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Circlist
This is not an encyclopedic source of information about circumcision. Therefore I removed it. Michael Glass 09:37, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
- It was presented as an external link, not a source, Michael. None of the other external links are encyclopaedic sources, either - that's the nature of the net. Jakew 13:07, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Reasons for circumcision
"Circumcision is performed for religious, cultural, and medical reasons. Elective adult circumcision may also be chosen as a form of body modification, or for aesthetic or other reasons." Could someone explain the distinction between "body modification, or..aesthetic" reasons and the religious and cultural reasons already mentioned? Body modification is a cultural practice, and aesthetics are part of culture. This seems to be a difference without a distinction. Benami 04:02, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I changed that sentence to something I thought made more sense. Benami 01:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
"Uncircumcised" vs. "Intact" ad nauseum
I'm not gonna shut up about this one. The word "uncircumcised" implies that the penis in question lacks some expected quality. It's POV. In the US, circumcision has been a majority procedure, defying all medical logic. So US folks seem to think "intact" implies there is something wrong with their circumcised dicks. Well, frankly, there is: PART OF IT HAS BEEN CHOPPED OFF WITHOUT MEDICAL CAUSE. Intact is the only NPOV term and I defy anybody to make a convincing argument otherwise. Matt Gies 09:14, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- It's entirely possible that someone might not be circumcized, but have a penis damaged by disease, accident, or a wound. He wouldn't be circumcized, he the wouldn't have an intact penis, either. How'd I do? Reverting... again. Benami 11:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Since you say you are Jewish, I am not surprised that you take this view. But Matt is as far as I can tell absolutely right; the term "uncircumcised" implies a lack of something, whereas the term "intact" implies unmodified. So, instead of just reverting, how about actually trying some constructive dialogue to see if we can come up with a more neutral term? - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 14:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- No, the prefix 'un-' simply means 'not'. Thus, uncircumcised means 'not circumcised', which is clearly correct. Intact, in contrast, means completely unaltered, and so is an imprecise term (a penis with a foreskin piercing is neither intact nor uncircumcised). We've been over this before; please see Talk:Circumcision/Archive_7#Uncircumcised_vs._Intact. Jakew 14:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Just zis Guy? Are you familiar with WP:NPA and WP:AGF? If so, how on earth could you possibly have made this statement? Because someone is Jewish their opinion is invalid? That aside, you're right. Un- implies lack of something, specifically, in this case, it implies, nay states explicitly, lack of circumcision. So what exactly is your argument here? Tomertalk 14:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- No, the prefix 'un-' simply means 'not'. Thus, uncircumcised means 'not circumcised', which is clearly correct. Intact, in contrast, means completely unaltered, and so is an imprecise term (a penis with a foreskin piercing is neither intact nor uncircumcised). We've been over this before; please see Talk:Circumcision/Archive_7#Uncircumcised_vs._Intact. Jakew 14:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Since you say you are Jewish, I am not surprised that you take this view. But Matt is as far as I can tell absolutely right; the term "uncircumcised" implies a lack of something, whereas the term "intact" implies unmodified. So, instead of just reverting, how about actually trying some constructive dialogue to see if we can come up with a more neutral term? - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 14:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- JakeW, If you look, I did more than just revert; for the record if the two terms are placed closer together I have no particular caring in whihc order thay are placed. TShilo12, it's interesting that you consider Jewish to be an insult or attack, I never have. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 14:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- You quite clearly dismissed Benami's argument for the sole reason that he apparently somewhere states that he's Jewish. If that's not how you intended it, perhaps you should consider rewording your statement. Tomertalk 14:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- By way of further clarification, note that you never bother to address a single point Benami raised, you simply brushed him off with "Since you say you are Jewish, I am not surprised that you take this view", and then go on to address Matt's statement. If you had no intention of addressing Benami's well-stated, IMHJO, point, you should have ignored him altogether. Tomertalk 14:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Leaving aside the distasteful implications of whether or not anyone's being Jewish or not is relevant in the context of the appropriate terminology, may I point out that the terms used by King James's men in the 1611 translation of the English Bible (as with all before and after) were "uncircumcised" and "uncircumcision." The Elizabethan and Jacobean translators (and the original writers of the gospels and epistles) were certainly not prejudiced in favour of circumcision; quite the contrary. It is no more indicative of circumcision being normative to use the term "uncircumcised" than it is of "scarred" to use "unscarred" or any number of other negatives. Silly discussion. Masalai 14:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- By way of further clarification, note that you never bother to address a single point Benami raised, you simply brushed him off with "Since you say you are Jewish, I am not surprised that you take this view", and then go on to address Matt's statement. If you had no intention of addressing Benami's well-stated, IMHJO, point, you should have ignored him altogether. Tomertalk 14:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- You quite clearly dismissed Benami's argument for the sole reason that he apparently somewhere states that he's Jewish. If that's not how you intended it, perhaps you should consider rewording your statement. Tomertalk 14:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- JakeW, If you look, I did more than just revert; for the record if the two terms are placed closer together I have no particular caring in whihc order thay are placed. TShilo12, it's interesting that you consider Jewish to be an insult or attack, I never have. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 14:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent point. Here we have a group of (presumably) men who were not circumcized and who definitely didn't have any nasty Jewish POV cluttering up their thought processes using the word "uncircumcised" to describe the state in question. I look forward to any of the "intact" lobby addressing this point - or, indeed, any other point raised in this discussion. Benami 23:09, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, so you didn't even read what I put in place, and why the religion issue might be relevant. Par for the course, I guess - looking back at the history it seems that it is forbidden to even hint that "uncircumcised" is anything other than the normal usage. Strangely enough, in the UK there appears to be no such debate - nobody would use any particular term to describe a penis which is not circumcised, since circumcision is exceptional outside particular religious groups. I find on reflection that I do not give a toss, I will leave you all to your petty wheel war since an attempt at constructive debate is apparently considered racial abuse. And yes, I was trying to be constructive, it's just that you chose not to accept that I was trying to make a distinction between debate over terminaology (intact v uncircumsied) and the minority usage "uncut". This, too, is par for the course, looking back at the history. Bye-bye. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 15:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- nobody would use any particular term to describe a penis which is not circumcised However if they were talking about circumcision and were talking about a penis that was not circumcises as opposed to one that was they would use the term uncircumcised rather than intact.Theresa Knott | Taste the Korn 19:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- Ah, so you didn't even read what I put in place, and why the religion issue might be relevant. Par for the course, I guess - looking back at the history it seems that it is forbidden to even hint that "uncircumcised" is anything other than the normal usage. Strangely enough, in the UK there appears to be no such debate - nobody would use any particular term to describe a penis which is not circumcised, since circumcision is exceptional outside particular religious groups. I find on reflection that I do not give a toss, I will leave you all to your petty wheel war since an attempt at constructive debate is apparently considered racial abuse. And yes, I was trying to be constructive, it's just that you chose not to accept that I was trying to make a distinction between debate over terminaology (intact v uncircumsied) and the minority usage "uncut". This, too, is par for the course, looking back at the history. Bye-bye. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] AfD? 15:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- No, I wish you'd stay and explain how my being Jewish nullifies the (very reasonable, I thought) argument that I presented in my first post to this section. I made no claims about either condition being the default position for male genetalia, but pointed out that "intact" means more than just "uncircumcized." One of the reasons that I put User Jew box on my user page was to make any potential POV problems obvious. It honestly did not occur to me that it would disqualify me from holding certain opinions or making certain arguments. Huh. Benami 16:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I'm not Jewish and I agree completely. Jakew 19:36, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
- What Jakew said. I'd go further (and perhaps more PC ;/) and say that the terms "circumsized" and "uncircumsized" occur far too frequently in the article. It makes the language hard to follow on a first read. It would be more economical to make comparisons by starting "The penis..." and then comparing by beginning "When circumsized...". A single sentence should be added to the introduction explaining that, for the sake of readability and concision, the rhetorical penis is uncircumsized unless specified as circumsized. I think "uncircumsized" is totally appropriate, but there's only a 16% difference between "uncircumsized" and "circumsized". —Daelin @ 2006–01–09 09:53Z
NPOV notice
Well, Dabljuh, you've added the NPOV notice which indicates that there is discussion on the talk page about the NPOV issues you wanted to raise. What, specifically, are they? Jakew 17:34, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
- A number. I'll try to completely rewrite most of the article, with a focus on NPOV/UW obviously. Once I'm done we can discuss what you like about it and what not, ok? The article as a whole is currently, well, mutilated and barely readable due to age-old constant edit wars so I think a rewrite is due even aside from the NPOV issues. Dabljuh 18:19, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- You're not being helpful, Dabljuh. Jakew 20:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- It's probably unwise to try to totally rewrite the article on your own. With such controversial articles, it's generally better to make incremental changes that can be agreed (or not) on a case-by-case basis. Still, it's your time, and you should spend it how you wish.
- As things stand, however, you have placed a notice directing readers to a discussion of NPOV issues that does not exist. You should either remove the notice or state your objections.
- As for your other objections, while the article could be better, I don't think it's as bad as you say. And your stated objections certainly do not warrant an NPOV tag. Jakew 18:29, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Good luck with it - you're braver than I am. :P By the way, regarding the link to MGC, I agree but only because there is no such article at the moment. When I find some time I'll do some research and create an article for MGC, so that it will be appropriate to link in such a way. -Kasreyn 18:22, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent! Dabljuh 18:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- I for one thought the picture was funny, if just a bit large and perhaps a closer to over-the-top than absolutely necessary. Dabljuh, may I suggest that if you want to do a complete rewrite, that you propose a rewrite one section at a time...go ahead and make your rewrite, save it and revert yourself, and then offer each section for discussion with the appropriate diffs so that people can comment. And when I say "one section at a time", I mean do it one section per week. This article is big and has a lot of contributors, and it's only fair that a rewrite of the scale you seem to be proposing should be discussed in depth prior to expecting adoption of any of your proposed changes...especially if we're going to avoid a long series of edit wars, finger pointing, name calling and picposting. Cheers, Tomertalk 10:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Excellent! Dabljuh 18:28, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
Title Change
I'm sure this has been gone over in an archive but I can't seem to find it. I suggest changing the article's title to "Male Genital Cutting" in order that it be equally euphemised-to-death as its female counterpart. After all, Wikipedia must be fair to both genders. Can there possibly be anyone opposed to something so obvious? :P -Kasreyn 16:39, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- The articles discuss acts which are different in kind and nature. Jayjg (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- And yet similar enough that almost everywhere in the world *other* than wikipedia, the female version is *also* called "circumcision"... I figured since one had been renamed "cutting", the other should be also. Hmm, let's go to the dictionary:
- cir·cum·ci·sion (sûrkm-szhn) n.
- 1. The surgical removal of part or all of the prepuce. Also called peritomy.
- 2. The cutting around an anatomical part.
- --The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
- cir·cum·ci·sion (sûrkm-szhn) n.
- Note that the definition of "prepuce", from the same dictionary, is that it describes either the foreskin or the clitoral hood. Therefore, since the same act (cutting around) is being performed on the same object (the prepuce), how are the acts different enough in kind and nature, other than the gender of the recipient, to merit greatly different names? -Kasreyn 16:58, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- And yet similar enough that almost everywhere in the world *other* than wikipedia, the female version is *also* called "circumcision"... I figured since one had been renamed "cutting", the other should be also. Hmm, let's go to the dictionary:
The Circumcision article discusses foreskin removal. The Female gential cutting article discusses all sorts of things besides removal of the clitoral hood. Jayjg (talk) 17:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- I see, so there's a different level of specificity. Well then, are there other "cutting" practises performed upon the male genitals with which this article could be merged under the more general title? Should the female article be split up into articles for each practise? Or is there a lot more of wikipedia's time being devoted to one than to the other (which I suspect)? -Kasreyn 17:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- This article is substantial enough already, without merging other content into it. I see no reason why the FGC article shouldn't be split up, though, if enough extra content can be written to make it worthwhile. Jakew 17:40, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
I disagree with changing the title of the article to "male genital whatever". I would however suggest that "Male genital whatever" forwards here, because that is the page that someone is looking for when he's entering that, rather than Genital modification and mutilation. Or a separate page of "Male genital whatever" that lists the different whatevers that are done to males, rather than to both sexes. Generally speaking, the redirects are a bit of a mess atm, it is quite frustrating to work like that, I must ask everybody to coopearte a bit more. Wikipedia is a team effort after all. Dabljuh 18:21, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
- Well, the female version is currently being called "female genital cutting", and it seemed bizarre to me to have different terminology for each gender. That was all I was trying to point out, I guess. -Kasreyn 01:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes it is bizarre. But that's just the way it is, it is not common for the majority of english speakers to look up circumcision as "male genital whatever". As a sidenote, especially some (really dumb) feminists argue that the horrible practice called female circumcision should not be confused with male circumcision (which is presumably harmless joy and fun). But "male circumcision" IS "male genital whatever", so anyhow, "male genital whatever" should definitely forward here. Dabljuh 02:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- There is wide room here for severe mishandling of the issue. There is one type of "female genital cutting" that is analogous to male circumcision, and as far as I'm aware, the majority of people who object to it do so out of the ignorant assumption that it's one of the other two, which would actually, if they were performed on men, be analogous to complete removal not only of the foreskin, but of the glans as well, and in some cases even to portions of the rest of the penis as well. Tomertalk 10:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Article Overhaul
I overhauled the whole article, not just with the NPOV issue but also with the general structuring of the article. I find that first, one would want to read the effects of circumcision, then read about its reasons, and lastly read about the history. I cut down the history part to the more relevant bits as I found the last version had way too much irrelevant history in it that should be reserved to the History of circumcision article.
I also ommitted the annoying "uncircumcised vs intact" part, because really, I couldn't give a shit. That wasn't what the NPOV problem was about.
The "Effects" of circumcision section may be a bit stubish, so please enhance. But please don't add the penile cancer thing, circumcision is a treatment for penile (foreskin) cancer, and a more invasive one at that, not a preventive measure. It is already in the "medical reasons for circumcise" section.
Note here's a difference between the "reasons" to circumcise and the effects that it has.
Since the "reasons" are a bit more detailed, one could certainly argue for moving them in front of the "effects" section, although I like my articles to be clear and brief in the beginning, and go more into details with time. That way one doesn't have to read half an hour to get to the interesting bits.
Be bold :) But try to improve the article Dabljuh 00:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hope reverting the whole thing back to the article as it stood before you decided you knew best isn't too bold for you. I didn't think it was an improvement, and it was more, not less, POV. Benami 02:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Well, yes. A bit more bold than what I hoped for. Look, the article needs an overhaul. Every single sentence of it has been torn around for a while and the entire flow is broken. I've added some relevant material and I do expect a bit of a better explanation than "More POV than before".
- Of course I cannot say I am capable of writing a perfectly neutral article, or that I wouldn't need your help in making it a more neutral article. But the way it was before was an NNPOV mess. I ask for your cooperation: Rather than just reverting a couple hour's of my time's worth, couldn't you just change the sections that you have a problem with one by one? I'm aware that asking you for this is hypocritical since I just rehauled the entire article, but I have put forward some points that should show you that even if the NNPOV issue isn't cleared up completely (or at all) with my rehaul, the article does need a new structure. I'll revert and trust that you, after reading this, will cooperate with me on this one and change what you don't like, rather than reverting back to that ungodly, unreadable and nnpoved mess. Dabljuh 03:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I find being faced with an entirely new article a little overwhelming. Rather than replace the whole thing in one fell swoop, is there any way to convince you to submit a section at a time? Benami 03:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- That is a specific idea with submitting an entire article. Instead of comparing every line to the line of the old article (which does not benefit the read flow) I want you to read the article as a whole (again) and judge then if it has a significant NPOV-violation in it (and where). This whole line-by-line comparison is something that is really detrimental to the read flow of the article in the long run. If you really must however, I can recommend you to use the Sandbox to compare section by section. Dabljuh 03:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- On a second thought however, I would not recommend that. A lot of items have just been moved around and rearranged (within sections or from one section to another). And using the sandbox or just a section-by-section adding may give a false impression. Dabljuh 03:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I find being faced with an entirely new article a little overwhelming. Rather than replace the whole thing in one fell swoop, is there any way to convince you to submit a section at a time? Benami 03:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hope reverting the whole thing back to the article as it stood before you decided you knew best isn't too bold for you. I didn't think it was an improvement, and it was more, not less, POV. Benami 02:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Dabljuh, please review my comment at the bottom of #NPOV notice. If your rewrite entails moving things from one section to another, you can easily demonstrate that in a single diff which shows the moves. For such a large article with such strongly-held POVs, a complete one-man overhaul is not only a bad idea unless the consensus beforehand is that you should do so, it's just never gonna fly. As Jim Carrey says, that's just the way the cookie crumbles (cf. Bruce Almighty). Tomertalk 10:59, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'd endorse Tom's suggestion. I'm sure everyone would welcome the opportunity to discuss section changes and ensure that we achieve consensus on them, but these are drastic changes, and only serve to make the article worse. Jakew 12:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Specific criticism with the overhauled article
Specific criticism with the overhauled article goes below this line, please! (Old article for comparison: here) Also, check out #Design_by_commitee for a list of relevant changes of the new version over the old one.
Dabljuh 18:06, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Screw Prudes?
I really miss the pictures of the penises. Can we get them back? Dabljuh 04:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Uhm, yes. WP:NOT However, "screw prudes" probably isn't the most diplomatic phrase. —Daelin @ 2006–01–09 09:20Z
- Why don't you review #Potentially unexpected images where this was discussed (in part, with you). Tomertalk 11:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- "Discussed" being the operative word. "Matt" made a suggestion that inline images be removed, and never followed up in the discussion. Copying the French delay-for-scrolling was mentioned (ignoring the EN style guide as it happens). You, in fact, suggested the discussion be taken to WP:VP for some sort of policy decision. The only relavent policy is WP:NOT. This article had pictures, and now it does not, despite WP policy. Someone made a stupid edit at some point. I don't see an issue. —Daelin @ 2006–01–09 11:59Z
Incidentally...
- I think someone missing cockpix is a rather poor rationale for making any edit.
- Does it not seem rather odd to anyone else that the two pictures W misses so badly, and wants put back prominently into the article, do nothing whatsoever to illustrate the subject of this article?
Tomertalk 14:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with that issue. Don't we have a picture of an actually circumcised penis somewhere? I was agreeing to the three-pictures-idea already. Dabljuh 14:59, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I really haven't spent enough time examining the organ closely to know for sure, but does the one at User:SPUI/dick work? Tomertalk 15:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- It looks like a circumcised penis, but it is erect and viewed from the side. We'd need a picture of an uncircumcised, erect penis from the side as well to make it useful. I don't mind that btw, although I find the side-view less beneficial, but I find there's this common misconception that when erect, circumcised and uncircumcised penises look the same. Dabljuh 15:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I really haven't spent enough time examining the organ closely to know for sure, but does the one at User:SPUI/dick work? Tomertalk 15:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with that issue. Don't we have a picture of an actually circumcised penis somewhere? I was agreeing to the three-pictures-idea already. Dabljuh 14:59, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Actually, after a rather lengthy examination of Image:Penis optimized.jpg, I'm not sure it is circumcised. Like I said tho, I'm hardly what one could consider an exspurt. A few others I found digging through the war over images in the history of the Penis article, are Image:Erection s.jpg or , and File:Erect.jpg deleted. There are a number of other "gems" at User:Markaci/Nudity. Since you miss the pix, I'll leave you the sordid task of sorting through them looking for something you consider "appropriate". :-p Personally, I think the diagram is plenty. Tomertalk
Image:Penis optimized.jpgIs almost certainly a circumcised penis IMHO, notice the missing frenulum. But for it to be of any use in the article (for comparison) we would require an uncircumcised, erect side view of a penis.Dabljuh 16:17, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Image:Penis optimized.jpg is very much NOT a circumcized penis. You can see the scrunched up skin by the base of the glans. It doesn't look like that in circumcized penises. Could you check the two penises I linked under the "Links to Photos" section at the top of this page? 64.231.171.102 00:35, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
[2] [3] Sexey! I like them. Btw: You might be right, although I still believe it is a circumcised male. Possibly just circumcised a little bit loosely. Dabljuh 00:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Best to stay safe and not use Image:Penis optimized.jpg. Do you want to add the French ones? I don't know how to move the uncut one. The other one is already in the English wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Penis_.jpg, used in the penis article. 64.231.171.102 01:04, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I uploaded the french picture of the uncircumcised wang. Currently I do not edit the circumcision article, but you can view the result at Talk:Circumcision/Dabljuhs_version. Dabljuh 01:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to mention that this is the best talk page discussion I have ever seen. Screw the prudes, cockpix, and French uncircumcised wang, indeed. --Cyde Weys votetalk 01:21, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, we positively rock! Dabljuh 01:23, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I've changed the circumcision linked images. Thanks Dabljuh. The last two images were both of an uncircumcized penis. I think that these new ones represent the differences better and are more easily comparable than leaving one of the black-and-white images behind. :-) 64.231.171.102 03:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Design by commitee
The problem with adding / removing every line and section one by one is that it accumulates to design by committee. The article ("Jakew's version" as I call it) is barely readable, not very informative, some exhaustive driveling about totally irrelevant (and Wikipedia-specific) issues, and contains many NNPOV items.
I decided to write the whole article from scratch. I'll now try to explain in some detail what I did:
- Removed the description of "uncircumcised" penis. It is the result from this annoying POV-War of intact vs uncircumcised vs genital mutilation, and does not add anything to the article. Used "uncircumcised" except for one incidence of "intact" where I found the difference to be relevant.
- Added a section "Effects of circumcision". This is a bit stub-ish, I expect you people to add some more effects. The reason for this is that this is probably the most important thing the first thing that someone wants to read when he's informing himself about circumcision. Some of the material in that section is C&P from the old article, some I wrote from scratch. Read it and reconsider if there is any considerable NNPOV in it. I have tried my best to make it just the "current state of the art" medicinally relevant while maximizing readability.
- Improved structuring of Reasons for circumcision, trying to make it more easily readable and also skip-able.
- Improved structuring and rewrote some material on medical reasons for circumcision.
- NPOV relevant edit: I changed the infant circumcision section to fix the WP:NPOVUW problem.
- History of circumcision: Removed what felt like 100 pages of bible thumping. This is the general article about circumcision, if you want to read the historic details, go read History of circumcision. I feel there's only a few relevant bits of information that should be in the article:
- Circumcision is way old
- The christians didn't circumcise for some reason (like, the romans didn't like it) (Didn't find a section in history that summed that up with style, so omitted it. Experts on historical christian non-circumcision may add a section like that again)
- It came en vogue again in late 19th century as a cure against masturbation
- And because I find the section to be relatively interesting and also relevant to the article I didn't reduce the 20th century history of circumcision. But I intend to work over that part again as it still has a lot of link- and statistics- thumping in there that I don't think does all really belong in the historical section of the article. This section may have to be worked on still.
- Didn't change "Prevalence" at all
- Removed 2 small, badly structured and barely readable sections that felt like incoherent POV rambling and in their meaning belong to Bioethics of neonatal circumcision.
- Revamped the links section
- Update Added Risks assessment and What is circumcision stubs. 04:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I repeat: do NOT start reading the article line by line and section by section again. You need to read an article as a whole! Otherwise, the quality suffers (or to cater to the policy police: Wikipedia:Make articles useful for readers as well as Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles )
Read the article as a whole! Observe if a casual reader would be more informed than he was before. Do not lose sight of the forest because you're looking for trees. I ask you. And dammit, don't just say it was more NNPOV than before. It's not.
I acknowledge that the article has come to this place through long POV edit wars. But that's not something that is beneficial to the article. Its something that sometimes can only be reversed by being bold Dabljuh 15:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
For better comparison, I've created Talk:Circumcision/Old_version and Talk:Circumcision/Dabljuhs_version
Consensus?
Dabljuh, in your latest edit summary, you stated: "rv (That write is POV, barely readable, and does not have consensus)".
Can I remind you that so far only you have endorsed your preferred version. Three people have reverted you:
Additionally, four editors (the three above plus one other) have advised you not to rewrite the article.
While there is no unanimous view either way, you appear to be in a minority in preferring your rewrite. Jakew 16:15, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Jakew, you might want to refresh your memory on what consensus is. Wikipedia is not a democracy. I respect that there are several issues with my rewrite but I still consider my current version to be superior, as an encyclopedic entry, as an informative page, from WP:NPOV viewpoints. I have one request: READ the article in its current form and judge then. Dabljuh 16:22, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I have read it, Dabljuh. How else do you think I came to the conclusion that it was more POV and less well referenced?
Are you going to revert your 3RR breach, by the way? Jakew 16:43, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
My intuition tells you have not read it thoroughly. BTW, I have discussed the matter with Benami and as far as I can tell, he agreed to more closely evaluate my version before simply dismissing it again. I am eagerly awaiting further input from his side. I wished for a similiar sort of cooperation from you (and Jayjg.
I have already agreed not to revert any more for the time being. Any further reversion (like the one you request) would indeed constitute a 3RR breach. Would that mean you get blocked for breach of 3RR instead of me? I doubt it, so I will simply abstain from further reverts for now. Dabljuh 17:26, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but I cannot help your intuition. As for the 3RR, you are already in breach. If you read WP:3RR, you'll notice that self-reverts are explicitly excepted. It is fine to use a self-revert to undo one of one's own reverts. Nevertheless, I have reverted your edit. Jakew 17:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Edit summaries
I wonder if you would all be kind enough to indicate which version (author and timetag or latest) you are reverting to, please? I was unable to follow the recent edit history. Thank you, Walter Siegmund (talk) 17:29, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I apologize for that confusion. For better comparison, I've created Circumcision/Old_version and Circumcision/Dabljuhs_version. I currently try to introduce my rehaul of the article because I consider the old article to be a mess, not only due to NPOV issues but also because of a lack of readability and "flow". It was reverted quite soon, so I reverted to my version giving more explanation on the talk page, the others then reverted to the old version for statusquoistic reasons rather than really evaluating the new one, as I believe.
I would like to add, I find the edit/rv war unfortunate. Dabljuh 17:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- How could you find it "unfortunate", when you knew it was inevitable? You replaced a fully sourced version, which had been achieved via lengthy negotiation and consensus, with an unsourced, POV re-write. You were warned beforehand by a number of editors that doing so would not achieve any sort of success, yet you did so anyway. As far as I can tell, in the past day or so you have reverted 5 different editors on this article, violated WP:3RR, then refused to undo your violation. What other outcome could you possibly have imagined? Jayjg (talk) 18:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- I expected the willingness of all editors involved into improving the article and achieve a consensus. Sometimes, in order to really improve an article, bold moves are necessary because of the problems associated with #Design by commitee. Everyone can be aware of that, and ultimately agree that an overhaul is necessary when viewed with all due objectivity. In the case you are not interested in improving wikipedia and its various article, I must ask you to abstain from edits. Dabljuh 18:53, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- But there already was a longstanding consensus. Then you showed up, and decided it wasn't good enough for you alone. And your edits certainly didn't improve anything; on the contrary, how could they, when they were filled with unsourced POV? There's nothing wrong with you having an extremely strong anti-circumcision POV, and one could even say that your lengthy debates against it on various pages weren't terrible, but you cannot write articles that mirror that POV. If you're not willing to work with other editors in a collegial way (which is the Wikipedia paradigm), and respect Wikipedia policy (e.g. WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CIVIL, WP:3RR) how can you possibly hope to get anywhere here? Jayjg (talk) 19:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- You are factionalizing again. The long debates and all that convinced me: I am not opposed to circumcision anymore. Circumcision is great! Although its certainly not for everyone. However the medical consensus is still not to advocate routine non-therapeutic infant circumcision, so even though I dont like it, that has to go into the article. And to say there was a consensus and no NPOV problem before... Do you want me to dig for comical ali again? Dabljuh 19:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Really, Dabljuh, I don't see how this discussion is going to reach any meaningful results if you adopt stances you don't really have. Your user page, which contains this passage "A LOT of mis-information is happening on wikipedia and in the world in general about the topic. I don't mind adults to circumcise or castrate themselves for fun, but when performed on infants and children, I consider it a male genital mutilation, a sex crime. And I do not tolerate people harming children because of stupidity, ignorance or perversion." You added that information on 8 January, so your road to Damascus experience concerning circumcision happened since then? Your behavior here, as well as your comments about the Wikipedia editing process, strongly suggest that you're not at all interested in consensus - just getting your POV across. Benami 23:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- Addmittably, that I think circumcision is great is an exaggeration. However I have debated long and exhaustively with Jakew and have found for example that there are indeed significant advantages to circumcision. However, my personal opinion, as well as the consensus in the medical community, is that routine infant circumcision is medically unreasonable. Indeed, I am agreeing with the genital integrity movement that circumcision should be something that everyone should be able to decide about as an adult. The reason I was debating with Jakew was just that I was interested in finding common ground and being able to find a solution that everyone can agree to.
- What you are further implying is that I am merely interested in getting my POV across. Nothing could be further from the truth, you have misinterpreted my information darwinism argument. I am just and only interested in helping good ideas spread, and I am willing to throw my own in the bin at once if I find a better idea. The reason I take such a combative stance about my own ideas is that I have gone to great lengths identifying - and if possible nullifying - my own biases and inform myself in an objective matter, so I can objectively assess what a good idea is and what not. Only because my POV are already based on a strong, scientific background, I am not willing to abandon them easily. But as I said in my user page, bring me good enough arguments, and I shall abandon them at once.
- I have written a version of the article that, unlike the old one, does treat the subject fairly, is a good read, and has a strong respect for WP:NPOV as good as I can. I am offended that you do not trust I am capable of writing an at least somewhat neutral article. Are you interested in a consensus? Dabljuh 00:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Really, Dabljuh, I don't see how this discussion is going to reach any meaningful results if you adopt stances you don't really have. Your user page, which contains this passage "A LOT of mis-information is happening on wikipedia and in the world in general about the topic. I don't mind adults to circumcise or castrate themselves for fun, but when performed on infants and children, I consider it a male genital mutilation, a sex crime. And I do not tolerate people harming children because of stupidity, ignorance or perversion." You added that information on 8 January, so your road to Damascus experience concerning circumcision happened since then? Your behavior here, as well as your comments about the Wikipedia editing process, strongly suggest that you're not at all interested in consensus - just getting your POV across. Benami 23:48, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- You inserted deliberate falsehoods into your response to me above, and are now adopting a false position in order to give the appearance of NPOV. Moreover, your new article does not meet NPOV requirements, is harder to read, and inserts uncited claims which just happen to be anti-circumcision. Instead of being offended, you should honour WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, and the Talk: page consensus process. Jayjg (talk) 18:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
I was trying to make clear I am not biased in favor of circumcision or against. Objectively gathering the facts, (which is a slow process with lots of verification due to a large amount of misconceptions and misinformation) I have come to adopt what I wrote in my version of the article as my own belief. Notice, I didn't add much information that wasn't already widely known. If you feel something requires citation, please indicate with what you have a problem. And for the cases where the information is not widely known (in my own assessment) I did provide respectable sources. If you feel something requires NPOVization, go ahead! If you feel I am biased (meaning, incapable of adopting an NPOV, for non objective reasons) you should point out to me why and I will evaluate the issue.
But: You have to be aware that you yourself may well be biased. On your user page, you describe yourself as jewish. I find it problematic to believe one would easily have adopted a truly objective view, when this objective view may ultimately infringe on your perceived freedom of practicing your religion (to circumcise your kids according to Judaism). Of course it is not impossible to gain an objective view, even a strongly opposed one, which one example of is Jews Against Circumcision. But: because you have apparently adopted a strong stance in favor of circumcision without backing this stance up with good arguments, I believe you are not objective on the issue, and your view is incompatible with the NPOV. That is regrettable, and I suspect the same issue to be even worse with User:Jayjg. User:Jakew is not jewish, but I have already attempted to explain to him where his incredible bias, that borders on lunacy, comes from. So the three individuals that oppose my changes, or my position, all have reason for internal, non objective bias. If you are aware of this, you may also realize that you are probably not fit for writing about the subject in an objective matter, and the best policy would be to abstain from editing the article, and limit voicing your concerns on the talk page with respect to your own bias. Dabljuh 01:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- It's a little hard to tell who you're addressing in this rant. User:Jayjg, to whose entry it appears to be a reply, doesn't say that he's a Member of the Tribe on his user page. Moreover, you later write about him in the third person, which would suggest that you are not addressing him. I, on the other hand, do identify myself as a Jew, but I didn't write anything that might be considered a trigger for your entry. Your allegation that a member's Jewishness is proof of an inability to write an NPOV article is, frankly, disgusting. (Oh, and you really should look up that word "bias," since I don't think it means what you think it means.) Benami 01:29, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I adressed you. "A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a predilection to one particular point of view or ideology." Exactly what I meant. I did not make an allegiation jews were unable to write in an NPOV way. Please, read what I wrote again more carefully, and Assume Good Faith. Dabljuh 01:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- And what exactly caused you to 'adress' me out of the blue like that? The last contribution I made to this section of the discussion was on 9 Jan. Are you feeling quite well?Benami 01:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Dang, you are right. I read the last edit on Talk:Circumcision was by you, when I scrolled down there, I thought that last bit (that I hadn't read yet) was by you. Apologizing very much. I was talking to Jayjg then, not you. Note: I was reading the article history, rather than the Talk page history. I was already confused by the strong words as you seemed the sanest guy of the bunch. Dabljuh 01:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Excuse me? Tomertalk 04:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'd still like an explanation for why I'm considered less than sane here, but in the meantime, I've moved both versions created by Dabljuh so that they each have talk pages of their own. In the interest of insanity, apparently. Tomertalk 08:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Didn't mean you. I was referring to the Jakew, Jayjg, Benami bunch mentioned in #Consensus?. You're certainly all sane otherwise. Dabljuh 08:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'd still like an explanation for why I'm considered less than sane here, but in the meantime, I've moved both versions created by Dabljuh so that they each have talk pages of their own. In the interest of insanity, apparently. Tomertalk 08:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Excuse me? Tomertalk 04:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Dang, you are right. I read the last edit on Talk:Circumcision was by you, when I scrolled down there, I thought that last bit (that I hadn't read yet) was by you. Apologizing very much. I was talking to Jayjg then, not you. Note: I was reading the article history, rather than the Talk page history. I was already confused by the strong words as you seemed the sanest guy of the bunch. Dabljuh 01:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- And what exactly caused you to 'adress' me out of the blue like that? The last contribution I made to this section of the discussion was on 9 Jan. Are you feeling quite well?Benami 01:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I adressed you. "A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a predilection to one particular point of view or ideology." Exactly what I meant. I did not make an allegiation jews were unable to write in an NPOV way. Please, read what I wrote again more carefully, and Assume Good Faith. Dabljuh 01:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- But...you just told Benami that he was the sanest... <evil smirk /> Tomertalk 08:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure, after all, that I'm the "one other" to whom Jakew refers in that section... Tomertalk 08:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, I think so. I didn't mean you really. I hereby declare you at least as sane as Benami. Thanks for the move of the versions and pictures, btw. Dabljuh 09:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Additionally, as a preventive measure, I declare Benami at least as sane as Tomer, so you can figure out for yourselves how sane you exactly are. o_O Dabljuh 09:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure, after all, that I'm the "one other" to whom Jakew refers in that section... Tomertalk 08:50, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- But...you just told Benami that he was the sanest... <evil smirk /> Tomertalk 08:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, I find your Hitler reference to be in very poor taste.
Secondly, there is no logical reason why Jewish people should be biased in favour of circumcision. The following is from my limited knowledge of Judaism, and may not be spot on, but I think it's broadly correct. Jewish people regard circumcision of Jewish children as a religious obligation, but this does not apply to non-Jews. In other words, secular reasons are irrelevant to Jewish attitudes towards circumcision. Because it is a religious obligation (and because of absolute devotion to God), any other issues relating to circumcision are relatively unimportant. Put bluntly, to regard any other issue as of higher importance would imply that you know better than Him, and that's a no-no. So there is no reason why a Jewish person should be biased in favour of circumcision.
Thirdly, to keep an open mind, you have to accept that it is possible to hold an objective view that differs from your own. To imply that Jews Against Circumcision hold a more objective view than some editors here is quite an offensive attitude. Jakew 16:13, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- So, you mean, if the consensus of secular medicine would end up finding Circumcision is a human rights violation (which it cannot, that would be a legal issue, not a medicinal one. Medicine only needs to find out that it is medically not recommendable, which it already has) and politicians would, as a result, forbid infant circumcision, jewish people would continue to circumcise their boys because the law of god is superior to the law of humans? And thus, jewish people would have no incentive, not to be objective about circumcision and its perception by the public? I find your explanation to be, well, lacking of common sense. Dabljuh 00:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think what Jakew is doing is pointing out that Jews do not circumcize our children, or converts to Judaism, because of any medical claims about its benefits. And whether or not other people circumcize their children or themselves is of little interest to us.Benami 01:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- But most jews still live in the western world, where politicians have already outlawed female circumcision which is required (or so is believed) by the religion of Islam. The danger to the free practice of Judaism is there, that male circumcision will also be generally outlawed in the western world in the near future. Dabljuh 01:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- And your point is what - that in order to avoid this danger (which isn't even remotely likely) Jews will simply adopt a pro-circumcision stance based on health benefits - perhaps while even privately disagreeing with the stance? Wow, we ARE wily.Benami 02:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- But most jews still live in the western world, where politicians have already outlawed female circumcision which is required (or so is believed) by the religion of Islam. The danger to the free practice of Judaism is there, that male circumcision will also be generally outlawed in the western world in the near future. Dabljuh 01:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think what Jakew is doing is pointing out that Jews do not circumcize our children, or converts to Judaism, because of any medical claims about its benefits. And whether or not other people circumcize their children or themselves is of little interest to us.Benami 01:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- So, you mean, if the consensus of secular medicine would end up finding Circumcision is a human rights violation (which it cannot, that would be a legal issue, not a medicinal one. Medicine only needs to find out that it is medically not recommendable, which it already has) and politicians would, as a result, forbid infant circumcision, jewish people would continue to circumcise their boys because the law of god is superior to the law of humans? And thus, jewish people would have no incentive, not to be objective about circumcision and its perception by the public? I find your explanation to be, well, lacking of common sense. Dabljuh 00:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I find the Hitler picture offensive on a couple of different levels. First, it's really in poor taste. As I've said at other pages of WP, though, I don't think that policing people's taste is within my purview. A gratuitous Hitler reference doesn't make me think better of the editor or his arguments, but it's a free country. What I find harder to tolerate is the implied comparison involved: Jews are to circumcision as Hitler was to Jews. I am deeply offended at being compared to Hitler, and find the random way that he was pulled into the discussion pretty creepy. If I found being compared to the Iraqi Minister of Information a personal attack, imagine how i feel about being compared to Hitler...Benami 01:13, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- Actually... maybe you need to get a sense of humor, as you didn't get the joke obviously. I didn't compare you with the dumb guy, I compared myself with him. Your implication was, as I suggested jews may have a harder time to write objectively about circumcision, that I would be, somehow, an antisemite. I was poking fun at that: Your allegiation that, if I was an antisemite, that I, as an antisemite, could not write objectively about jews, would be exactly as disgusting as my other statement - Or indeed, just a display of common sense. Dabljuh 01:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- Just as disagreeing with your views does not equal being POV, not finding your Hitler joke a laff-riot does not equal a lack of a sense of humor. BTW, your explanation makes no sense.Benami 02:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- Actually... maybe you need to get a sense of humor, as you didn't get the joke obviously. I didn't compare you with the dumb guy, I compared myself with him. Your implication was, as I suggested jews may have a harder time to write objectively about circumcision, that I would be, somehow, an antisemite. I was poking fun at that: Your allegiation that, if I was an antisemite, that I, as an antisemite, could not write objectively about jews, would be exactly as disgusting as my other statement - Or indeed, just a display of common sense. Dabljuh 01:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
RFC
I have committed an RFC on the subject of my overhauled version vs the old version.
Relevant talk subjects so far are
And otherwise, pretty much the entire talk page.
Dabljuh 23:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
I have read both versions and I think that the version I read when I arrived at the page was the least controversial, and had the least POV arguments (this may be the old version, hard to tell).
Overall, I think that the discussion of this topic flows best when the reader is provided with the following flow:
- What is circumcision
- Reasons for circumcision
- History of circumcision (worldwide rates should probably go here as opposed to the bottom)
- Effects/Risks/Emotional impact/Consent of circumcision
More Specifically
- The “In the United states, it is unclear….” Portion of “Circumcision Since 1950” is redundant with the United States portion of “Prevalence of circumcision worldwide”.
- Finally, the results of the jackinworld.com survey are misrepresented. The survey said that: 87.9% of circumcised men were happy with their penis and that 89.8% of uncircumcised men were happy with their penis. This is not a trivial distiction when one takes in the margin of error (not presented in the article that I could find). Given that the numbers are so close (1.6%), I would suspect that even a minute margin of error (like +/-1%) would make the groups non-significant. Therefore, the statements about the second part of this survey should be removed.
- Loved the talk page! DO11.10 05:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Huge point! What is circumcision is almost totally omitted by both versions. I totally overlooked that problem when I overhauled the article as I failed to realize there's people that don't know what it actually is. The only problem is that the procedure is almost impossible to explain without good pictures, none of which are available under a free licence as far as I know. I would like to put forward a motion to contact the various circumcision information sites to release some of their material under the GFDL and thus making them available for the Wikipedia. Dabljuh
I like the Dabljuhs version better, except that I think it should not omit the issues of risk and consent which the original version addresses. —James S. 05:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. True, consent is omitted, I figured that the issue of consent belongs to Bioethics of neonatal circumcision. I have not really changed the description of "risks", outside the context of infant circumcision, it wasn't in the article in the first place. Will update my version as soon as time allows. (or you may, of course) Dabljuh 07:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
Why file an RFC on a medical topic under society and law? Jakew 11:35, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sex also is part of that group. Don't know really. Also, circumcision is more of a social practice than a medical one. Dabljuh 13:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Many people would disagree. I suggest that your view that it is more social than medical reflects your opposition to circumcision. Jakew 13:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Or... maybe it reflects the view of the medical community, that circumcision is more of a social practice than a medical one. Seriously though, I just didn't spend much time selecting the right group to post the RFC to, I saw "sex" and all was good. If you think this would introduce bias (by introducing social rather than medical experts), feel free to add another RFC to the group of your liking to outweigh whatever bias you perceive. Dabljuh 13:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest that in issuing policy statements on the matter, the medical community have implicitly recognised that it is, at least in part, a medical matter. Jakew 14:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- How do you figure that? It would seem to me that the content of their policy statements is, "there is no medical basis for this, so we're washing our hands". They direct parents to make their decision based on religion and culture, and on the medical issue they pause only to state that there is no convincing medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision. To me, that seems to indicate that the medical community have very firmly declared it a non-medical matter. -Kasreyn 16:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think you're confusing a medical decision with a medical issue, Kasreyn. It is only as a result of reviewing the (medical) benefits and risks, and finding nothing sufficiently compelling to recommend either way, that they felt parental discretion was the right approach. The very fact that they cite medical evidence should demonstrate that they feel it has medical aspects. Jakew 16:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I suppose so, but it seems clear the medical aspects they refer to must mostly be risks and possible harm of circumcision rather than benefits, since they came out against it. Therefore if circumcision is a medical issue at all, to them at least, it's an issue of a procedure that is harmful on the balance. I'm not trying to insert a POV here but I'm very concerned that the article avoid granting routine neonatal circumcision a clearly unwarranted appearance of therapeutic legitimacy through painting it as a medical issue. -Kasreyn 16:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- The thought occurs that if they felt it was harmful on balance they would not have recommended parental discretion. Jakew 16:41, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I suppose so, but it seems clear the medical aspects they refer to must mostly be risks and possible harm of circumcision rather than benefits, since they came out against it. Therefore if circumcision is a medical issue at all, to them at least, it's an issue of a procedure that is harmful on the balance. I'm not trying to insert a POV here but I'm very concerned that the article avoid granting routine neonatal circumcision a clearly unwarranted appearance of therapeutic legitimacy through painting it as a medical issue. -Kasreyn 16:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think you're confusing a medical decision with a medical issue, Kasreyn. It is only as a result of reviewing the (medical) benefits and risks, and finding nothing sufficiently compelling to recommend either way, that they felt parental discretion was the right approach. The very fact that they cite medical evidence should demonstrate that they feel it has medical aspects. Jakew 16:27, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- How do you figure that? It would seem to me that the content of their policy statements is, "there is no medical basis for this, so we're washing our hands". They direct parents to make their decision based on religion and culture, and on the medical issue they pause only to state that there is no convincing medical indication for routine neonatal circumcision. To me, that seems to indicate that the medical community have very firmly declared it a non-medical matter. -Kasreyn 16:05, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest that in issuing policy statements on the matter, the medical community have implicitly recognised that it is, at least in part, a medical matter. Jakew 14:02, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Or... maybe it reflects the view of the medical community, that circumcision is more of a social practice than a medical one. Seriously though, I just didn't spend much time selecting the right group to post the RFC to, I saw "sex" and all was good. If you think this would introduce bias (by introducing social rather than medical experts), feel free to add another RFC to the group of your liking to outweigh whatever bias you perceive. Dabljuh 13:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Many people would disagree. I suggest that your view that it is more social than medical reflects your opposition to circumcision. Jakew 13:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- Sex also is part of that group. Don't know really. Also, circumcision is more of a social practice than a medical one. Dabljuh 13:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
This issue is a no-brainer. The original article was POV-balanced (i.e. NPOV), and then some POV person came along and selectively deleted all of the stuff that went against their own personal POV. Such POV-pushing selective information suppressors make me sick. Oh by the way, here are some more facts about circumcision that I found: 1. In a study in Africa on the effects of circumcision on AIDS transmission, it was discovered that circumcised men (controlled for variables) have sex 20% more often (on average). 2. Circumcised men were found to have a higher incidence of unconventional sexual interests. You can interpret these 2 facts as either pointing to higher libido, higher sexual frustration, or something else, but they are worth including. LawAndOrder 16:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- There's many studies that try to provide statistical data on sexual behaviour, the problem is, for issues like that is hard to get reliable numbers. For example, the Lancet's meta study of ~40 AIDS/circumcision studies has indicated that the biggest statistical factor that affected the result of the study, was, if they would themselves check the individuals if they are circumcised or not, or if they would let the individual men just say themselves. The studies that do not verify the status of the males themselves had usually almost no statistically significant difference between the circumcised group and the control group, yet still claimed wild results. The other studies, that really went down on the guys to make sure the circumcised folks are circumcised and the non-circumcised ones aren't, had systematically different results. My personal interpretation is that a) A huge number of men don't know if they are circumcised or not, or b) The studies by their very nature cannot be made in a double-blind fashion and have to trust the participants of the study what they say they did. Thus, unfortunately, most circumcision studies are only of limited value. But informations in that detail shouldn't be in the article - Thats what we have external links for. Dabljuh 21:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I believe LawAndOrder refers to the recent randomised controlled trial, in which the circumcision status of the men was definitely known, for the simple reason that the men were (or weren't) circumcised as part of the study. Incidentally, it would help if you would cite the meta analysis to which you refer (the lancet links on 'Dabljuh's version' do not work). Jakew 21:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- They should work, if you register yourself at The Lancet properly. Dabljuh 22:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
- I believe LawAndOrder refers to the recent randomised controlled trial, in which the circumcision status of the men was definitely known, for the simple reason that the men were (or weren't) circumcised as part of the study. Incidentally, it would help if you would cite the meta analysis to which you refer (the lancet links on 'Dabljuh's version' do not work). Jakew 21:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
*Update* I have added stubs for "What is circumcision" and for "Risks of circumcision" to my version. Dabljuh 04:20, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
*Update* I have re-added the sections about consent and emotional impact. I have removed the bit about the internet survey. Its an internet survey, dammit. Dabljuh 04:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Comment I find the revised version much easier to read and suggest that POV discussions focus on changes to that version. The images are a good idea. Lynn Payer's Medicine and Culture [7] offers some interesting insights into prevailing medical practice in several Western countries, especially with regard to differing practices regarding reproductive issues. She views differences in circumcision rates as part of a larger picture that includes vasectomy rates, hysterectomy rates, and cesarean deliveries. Doctors are more likely to perform procedures on one's private parts in North America. Medical consensus is different across the Atlantic. On another note, I'd like to see exploration of cultural differences within countries. I don't have research handy to back this up, but it appears that circumcision rates are far higher among United States citizens of European origin than among African-Americans. It also appears that in Mexico circumcision rates are linked to socioeconomic status, with circumcision being common among the elite and rare among poor people. Regards, Durova 07:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Both versions touch the subject of cultural difference within the US only very superficially at the moment:
- The National Center for Health Statistics stated that the overall rate of neonatal circumcision was 64.3% in 1979 and 65.3% in 1999. However, the rate for white infants was 0.3% lower in 1999 than 1979 and the circumcision rate for black infants increased by 6.5% over this time
- I would prefer not to go too much into detail in the main article. Is it time to create Cultural evaluation of circumcision? It would look good in the revised article's "cultural" section for further detail on the issue. We already have "detail" articles on several aspects of circumcision, like medical, sexual, or ethical. Dabljuh 08:55, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- It sounds like a good idea to - erm - trim and separate a bit. Durova 18:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- Hehehe... Dabljuh 00:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Some comments on Dabljuh's version
Please do not regard the following as an exhaustive list of criticisms. It is simply a start.
What happens during a circumcision? Suggest rewriting based upon a source describing a typical circumcision, with an explanatory note commenting that other techniques are used. As I recall, the AAFP have a page on adult circumcisions that should be suitable.
Risks of circumcision First sentence is not correctly-formed English. Next paragraph: glands should be glans. General comments: tone is slightly alarmist. Medical organisations emphasise that the risk is small and that most complications are minor. This should be noted.
Risks specific to infants "Several studies" need citations (I believe I cited a few in our debate). "One explanation" is this original research, or can you cite a source for the explanation? Text implies anaesthesia is never used for infants - this is incorrect. Canadian org is notable (but needs cite), NOHARMM is not. "Infants are at additional risk for complications" contradicts preceding text, and needs a cite. "There is also considerable risk of death." is POV. "Estimates range between" is a misrepresentation - the data is based upon recorded deaths, as with Gairdner. I explained this to you previously.
Effects of circumcision General comment: this is beginning to resemble medical analysis of circumcision, and is arguably redundant. Should really just have a brief summary here, with a link to that document (as is in the proper article).
Emotional This is in dire need of citations.
HIV Lancet links don't work (cite PubMed abstracts instead). Should note WHO position re the recent RCT. "Neither is the protection reliable enough" - this is your opinion, better to quote WHO instead. "Interestingly, The Lancet reports that male homosexuals" - this is one of 4 or 5 such studies. Furthermore, to say it is 'interesting' is POV.
Hygiene "While smegma is generally not believed to be harmful to health" - weasel words, cite please.
UTI "However, those studies have been criticised" no, some of them have. "The chance to get an UTI for an uncircumcised boy is about 1%, and the mortality is 1:50'000." Cite please. "As it is probable that infant circumcision causes more complications and infant deaths than the UTIs they are supposed to prevent" Cite needed. This looks like OR.
Cultural "In cultures where circumcision is the norm or the quasi-norm" This is your interpretation, and hence OR. Remove interpretation, replace with a different heading.
Intercourse "It is generally accepted that circumcision reduces the sensitivity of the male during intercourse" Cite needed. "The missing gliding action of the foreskin can make penetration more rigid and may make additional lubricant beneficial." Cite needed.
Masturbation "Circumcision was introduced in the English-speaking world as a measure to prevent masturbation" Nonsense. Circumcision was around long before the Victorian era when masturbation became an issue. I think you mean widespread infant circumcision. Even then, it is impossible to identify prevention of masturbation as the only reason, since many advantages were perceived at around the same time.
To be continued... Jakew 16:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
- I think, most, although probably not all of the citations that you require, can be found by reading the CPS and AAP summaries alone, most other are found in other external links at the end of the article. Please, do not waste mine or anyone elses time by requesting citations of things that you know, just as well as I do or even better, that they are referenced in the external sources. Some of the things that you requested citation for, are your arguments that you brought up in our debate. I don't find it sensible to mutilate (cough) every sentence with an external link, if the external links at the end of the document are more than sufficient. Dabljuh 01:12, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. We do not print unsourced information and then expect our readers to go do our research for us and figure out what might or might not be referring to. If there are sources for the statements that Jakew has flagged above, they should be added to the article. If there are no sources, then the statements are prima facie original research, and should be excluded. Which is it? Nandesuka 02:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
The third option. The sources are already there. I just tried to minimize the Harvard [8][9] style [10] of [11] citing [12][13][14] sources [15][16] because[17] that [18] might [19] harm [20] the [21] read flow [22][23][24][25] and [26] make the [27] article [28] less [29] useful [30] to readers [31][32][33][34] [35][36]. Dabljuh 03:10, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, I have added aproximately a metric busload of links/sources and did some further modifications to the article to adress some of the perceived problems. But I must remind everyone: If you find something is wrong with an article, fix it. For stuff that anyone who is even halfway informed can find readily believeable, and knowing that it is sourced already about 20 times, I do not find it necessary to add more sources. Especially not for things that have their own Wiki article and thus, their own sources. You can do something as well and try to contribute to Wikipedia. Hell, some of the things are 1:1 copies from the current article and you request sources for those from me? I'm not going to let me being filibustered by fringe view POV pushers. Contribute or stay out! Sorry for the combative tone, but it is very frustrating to produce an useful article like this. Dabljuh 06:32, 12 January 2006 (UTC)