Deepfriedokra (talk | contribs) →merger-- absolutely not: reply, aversion makes notable |
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::Merger is called for by [[WP:BLP1E]]. This is an encyclopedia, not "News of the Week." If it were an archive of "news of the week" people in the news, there would be an article on [[Piero Calamai]], captain of the luxury passenger liner [[SS Andrea Doria]] when it sank in 1956. That was a very big story, bigger than this ditching of an airliner. Stories about disasters or narrowly averted disasters should not produce articles about every person mentioned in stories about the event. ([[WP:BEANS]]?)[[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 15:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
::Merger is called for by [[WP:BLP1E]]. This is an encyclopedia, not "News of the Week." If it were an archive of "news of the week" people in the news, there would be an article on [[Piero Calamai]], captain of the luxury passenger liner [[SS Andrea Doria]] when it sank in 1956. That was a very big story, bigger than this ditching of an airliner. Stories about disasters or narrowly averted disasters should not produce articles about every person mentioned in stories about the event. ([[WP:BEANS]]?)[[User:Edison|Edison]] ([[User talk:Edison|talk]]) 15:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:(notability != body count) As I recall, the captain of ''Andrea Doria'' was not notable. We do have an article about [[Edward Smith]]. This is not an article about the air-crash-pilot-of -the-week. Had he tried for an alternate air port and crashed in the suburbs, or if he had made some similarly spectacular mess of things, he would not be notable. He becomes notable in that he used his skill, expertise, and training to ''avert'' a disaster. Cheers, [[User:Dlohcierekim|<font color="#00ff00"> Dloh</font>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<font color="#bb00bb">cierekim''' </font>]] 16:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
:(notability != body count) As I recall, the captain of ''Andrea Doria'' was not notable. We do have an article about [[Edward Smith]]. This is not an article about the air-crash-pilot-of -the-week. Had he tried for an alternate air port and crashed in the suburbs, or if he had made some similarly spectacular mess of things, he would not be notable. He becomes notable in that he used his skill, expertise, and training to ''avert'' a disaster. Cheers, [[User:Dlohcierekim|<font color="#00ff00"> Dloh</font>]][[User_talk:Dlohcierekim|<font color="#bb00bb">cierekim''' </font>]] 16:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
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::I originally redirected the article but I'm now not so sure, the press attention on him seems to be rivalling that of the event, his picture was on the front page of Yahoo and there are currently several BBC stories about him and any honours he could receive. I still think that the information might be better presented with a [[WP:MERE|merge]] and his past achievements - however noble - did not receive any kind of [[WP:V|independent]] coverage but it is not going to be possible to objectively look at information available as a whole until after the hubbub around the event has died down. Per [[WP:NOT#NEWS]] Wikipedia should examine the historical [[WP:NN|notability]] of topics but as was shown by the abortive [[WP:AFD|AfD]] there is currently a clear [[WP:CONSENSUS|consensus]] to have articles about ongoing events and those involved in them, where such a perspective will be difficult to achieve. [[User:Guest9999|Guest9999]] ([[User talk:Guest9999|talk]]) 16:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC) |
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explanation
I think the {{prod}} and redirection are both premature. I reverted the redirection.
It is not clear to me whether Sullenberger merits coverage. But, a few minutes web searching shows he is not just an airline pilot. Geo Swan (talk) 10:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Okay, I have decided that his career as an accident investigator, and scholar in the fields of High Reliability systems and Risk Management mean this article is not an instance of WP:BLP1E. Since I started working on this article someone else has redirected it to the article on the accident. And I reverted that redirection. In the interests of collegiality, I wonder whether those who think it should be redirected would discuss their concern here? Geo Swan (talk) 11:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- I redirected the page the second time, as it had the prod tag on it I assumed no one was working on it - should have checked the edit history. Having said that given your development of the article and the small amount of Googling I've done I'd still be in favour of the article being redirected with some of the information being merged back into the main article. Whatever his achievements prior to the flight I think it is hard to argue that he was notable two days ago, all references to him before the flight appear to be from his place of work and a conference he was speaking at - they are not independent sources. WP:BLP1E states that "The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopaedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but essentially remains a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them... Cover the event, not the person" (emphasis from source). In this case I don't think that the flurry of news coverage there has been - at this stage - warrants an independent article. Additionally I think having any appropriate information in the main article about the flight would make more sense from the readers perspective, neither article is that large and I don't see the need to send people around different articles looking for information on what is - at this stage at least - essentially one topic. Guest9999 (talk) 11:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Having said that I'm not about to redirect the article again, there's obviously verifiable information about the guy and I doubt the article will develop any negative bias. Guest9999 (talk) 12:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- I redirected the page the second time, as it had the prod tag on it I assumed no one was working on it - should have checked the edit history. Having said that given your development of the article and the small amount of Googling I've done I'd still be in favour of the article being redirected with some of the information being merged back into the main article. Whatever his achievements prior to the flight I think it is hard to argue that he was notable two days ago, all references to him before the flight appear to be from his place of work and a conference he was speaking at - they are not independent sources. WP:BLP1E states that "The bare fact that someone has been in the news does not in itself imply that they should be the subject of an encyclopaedia entry. Where a person is mentioned by name in a Wikipedia article about a larger subject, but essentially remains a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them... Cover the event, not the person" (emphasis from source). In this case I don't think that the flurry of news coverage there has been - at this stage - warrants an independent article. Additionally I think having any appropriate information in the main article about the flight would make more sense from the readers perspective, neither article is that large and I don't see the need to send people around different articles looking for information on what is - at this stage at least - essentially one topic. Guest9999 (talk) 11:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The subject might indeed be "an accident investigator, and scholar in the fields of High Reliability systems and Risk Management", but he is not notable in those areas. I couldn't find any ghits not related to the crash. Seems to fit WP:ONEEVENT very well. -- Mufka (u) (t) (c) 12:35, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
AfD
Could someone please complete the AfD? Can't create the discussion page. Simply go to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chesley Sullenberger and insert
{{subst:afd2 | pg=Chesley Sullenberger | cat=B | text=[[WP:BLP1E]]. Should be a redirect to [[US Airways Flight 1549]], but not an article on its own.}}
Thanks, 78.34.145.54 (talk) 14:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
As to the reasoning, it should go without question that WP:BLP1E means this article cannot exist. Cover the event, not the person. As an aside, shame on those who are unable/unwilling to get a simple notability rule such as BLP1E. Just do never create an article about a living person notable only for one single event. Just do not. 78.34.145.54 (talk) 14:07, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Code inserted. Terrakyte (talk) 14:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks! And listed in today's log. 78.34.145.54 (talk) 14:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Wow. The deletion discussion was closed in an hour as a "snowball keep." The new rule must be" never sleep or doing anything else for an hour, to have a chance to make input". I would have voted for deletion on the WP:BLP1E grounds that he may have been a safety expert before his 5 minutes of flying an airliner to a successful ditching, but he is known only for this one incident and did not have evidence of notability prior to it to satisfy WP:BIO. When the news coverage of the incident is past, in a few months, perhaps someone can renominate it or merge it to the article on the event. On the other hand, perhaps he will write a book about it and be the subject of a "made for TV" movie of the week and gain notability that way. Edison (talk) 15:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- If I recall, the nomination was withdrawn. Dlohcierekim 15:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
merger-- absolutely not
A little surprised to see this up for merger/deletion so fast after creation. What he did and his background make him extraordinary. Were Wikipedia a paper encyclopedia, we would have to consider culling and merging to the notable event. However, a merge here is not appropriate and unnecessary-- we've plenty of room. I seem to remember somewhere that the goal is to cover a subject as completely as possible. That we can do with two separate articles. BLP1E says a separate article is unlikely to be warranted. This event, the coverage, and the role the subject played, as well as his prior status, raises him to a degree of notability where a separate article becomes essential. Dlohcierekim 15:19, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- True, and the AfD went accordingly. So now we (or rather, I) know. 78.34.128.236 (talk) 15:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Merger is called for by WP:BLP1E. This is an encyclopedia, not "News of the Week." If it were an archive of "news of the week" people in the news, there would be an article on Piero Calamai, captain of the luxury passenger liner SS Andrea Doria when it sank in 1956. That was a very big story, bigger than this ditching of an airliner. Stories about disasters or narrowly averted disasters should not produce articles about every person mentioned in stories about the event. (WP:BEANS?)Edison (talk) 15:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- (notability != body count) As I recall, the captain of Andrea Doria was not notable. We do have an article about Edward Smith. This is not an article about the air-crash-pilot-of -the-week. Had he tried for an alternate air port and crashed in the suburbs, or if he had made some similarly spectacular mess of things, he would not be notable. He becomes notable in that he used his skill, expertise, and training to avert a disaster. Cheers, Dlohcierekim 16:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- I originally redirected the article but I'm now not so sure, the press attention on him seems to be rivalling that of the event, his picture was on the front page of Yahoo and there are currently several BBC stories about him and any honours he could receive. I still think that the information might be better presented with a merge and his past achievements - however noble - did not receive any kind of independent coverage but it is not going to be possible to objectively look at information available as a whole until after the hubbub around the event has died down. Per WP:NOT#NEWS Wikipedia should examine the historical notability of topics but as was shown by the abortive AfD there is currently a clear consensus to have articles about ongoing events and those involved in them, where such a perspective will be difficult to achieve. Guest9999 (talk) 16:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)