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(od) We can not use [[WP:CONSENSUS]] to violate [[WP:BLP]]. The concept that a majority can ''decree'' that the minority is wrong is not found in [[WP:BLP]] nor is it found in [[WP:CONSENSUS]], so tthat argument fails mightily. The choice is either to violate [[WP:BLP]] or to follow it. I suggest that this is not a "choice" at all -- we are obligated to follow the requirements of [[WP:BLP]]. Cheers - and let's drop the "we will all spend years before ArbCom" arguments! [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 18:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC) |
(od) We can not use [[WP:CONSENSUS]] to violate [[WP:BLP]]. The concept that a majority can ''decree'' that the minority is wrong is not found in [[WP:BLP]] nor is it found in [[WP:CONSENSUS]], so tthat argument fails mightily. The choice is either to violate [[WP:BLP]] or to follow it. I suggest that this is not a "choice" at all -- we are obligated to follow the requirements of [[WP:BLP]]. Cheers - and let's drop the "we will all spend years before ArbCom" arguments! [[User:Collect|Collect]] ([[User talk:Collect|talk]]) 18:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC) |
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:That's not the consensus. The consensus is that the above minority ''interpretation'' of BLP is invalid. You are arguing that your ''interpretation'' of BLP trumps consensus. [[User_talk:Becritical|<span style="color:black;">'''B<sup>e</sup>'''—</span><span style="background:black;color:white;padding:0px 5px 6px 0px;cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;letter-spacing:2px;">—'''C'''<sub>ritical</sub></span>]] 18:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC) |
:That's not the consensus. The consensus is that the above minority ''interpretation'' of BLP is invalid. You are arguing that your ''interpretation'' of BLP trumps consensus. [[User_talk:Becritical|<span style="color:black;">'''B<sup>e</sup>'''—</span><span style="background:black;color:white;padding:0px 5px 6px 0px;cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;letter-spacing:2px;">—'''C'''<sub>ritical</sub></span>]] 18:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Per the advice [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:CIreland#.22santorum.22_and_protection here] from the admin who protected it, I am proceeding with an RfC. At least that way we can expect someone to "close" it -- something that unfortunately wasn't forthcoming with the straw poll and discussion above. I believe strongly that it should deal only with the EL question; trying to discuss two contentious issues at once will prevent gaining clarity on either of them. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 18:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC) |
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==RfC== |
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Following a very long discussion (and straw poll) above, the question here is whether to include Dan Savage's [http://www.spreadingsantorum.com "Spreading santorum"] website as an external link for this page. Some people believe that it is a BLP violation, while others reject that view and believe that it is a proper EL and even belongs here per [[WP:ELOFFICIAL]]. [[User:Nomoskedasticity|Nomoskedasticity]] ([[User talk:Nomoskedasticity|talk]]) 18:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 18:59, 1 February 2012
Campaign for the neologism "santorum" was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Straw poll
Again, as stated above, the purpose of this is not to determine consensus but rather to help steer discussion. JakeInJoisey provided the first question and I'll add a few as well. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Question: Is incorporation of Dan Savage's name in any proposed article title appropriate?
Is incorporation of Dan Savage's name in any proposed article title appropriate? JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:17, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Yes
- Yes - This political attack is inextricably linked to Dan Savage. It strains, IMHO, WP:NPOV that the TARGET of this attack should be further villified yet the AUTHOR of the attack remains unidentified in this article title. This is an instance where editorial discretion, in full compliance with Wikipedia policy, can and should act in the best interest of both the integrity of this project and fundamental fairness. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:39, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Given the current effort to expand the scope of this article by incorporating content related to Savage's escalation of his attack on Santorum (see discussion below), serious re-consideration should be given to renaming this article Dan Savage's political attack on Rick Santorum. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes - why not it's his creation. D Savage's dirty name association. Youreallycan (talk) 19:55, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes - as should the LGBT activists who have campaigned with him.88.166.32.210 (talk) 03:12, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes He is the "prime mover" and ignoring that in the title will mislead readers. Collect (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- He is the "prime mover..."
- ...and you'd be hard-pressed, I'd venture, to provide sourcing addressing this subject that doesn't also reference his name. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes The "campaign" or whatever we're calling it cannot be separated from Savage. It is inherently linked to him. NYyankees51 (talk) 05:33, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
No
- No. As a rule, we don't include the author's name in a work; thus The Green Child doesn't contain Herbert Read's name in the title. Others have pointed out that by now this thing has taken on a life of its own with people like Stephen Colbert weighing in. You might even argue that the reader who submitted the definition deserves the credit. ;) Wnt (talk) 14:23, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- No. Unless there are a rash of other definitions with articles, such that a differentiation between them is required. No such clarification of authorship is required, and since it is not common practice ... it is inappropriate to include at this time. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 15:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- No for the reason stated by 70.15.11.44. There's only one theory of relativity, so we have an article at Theory of relativity rather than Einstein's theory of relativity. Dan Savage is not more important than Einstein. Contrary to JakeInJoisey's argument, we do not "vilify" a politician by accurately reporting on incidents in that person's life, even incidents that involve attacks on or disparagements of that person. Usually the subject is notable only because of the connection to the target, not the author, so the best identification of the subject matter will often name the target: Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, George W. Bush military service controversy, etc. The present case is unusual in that the whole subject of the article is the political use of a particular word (or a particular combination of eight letters, if you prefer). The best title doesn't use Rick Santorum's name but does use the neologism/attempted neologism/eponym/octagraph/whatever -- "santorum" but not "Santorum". JamesMLane t c 17:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Usually the subject is notable only because of the connection to the target,...
- Perhaps so but, in this instance (and, IMHO, quite, quite notably), the subject exists and, according to Savage himself, endures only because of Savage's ongoing campaign. Were that not the case, Savage's "offer" to terminate the campaign upon Santorum's "donation" of $5M would be nothing more than a meaningless, hollow gesture.
- ...so the best identification of the subject matter will often name the target: Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, George W. Bush military service controversy, etc.
- In neither of those matters is a specific progenitor identifiable...relegating both, I'd suggest, to rather unpersuasive or unrepresentative comparative status. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:32, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- No per JamesMLane's argument, and the fact that per WP:BLP we probably shouldn't be dragging any unnecessary names through the mud without good reason. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 17:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- No. He's the father, so to speak, but the thing has momentum all its own. If we knew who the
originator oforiginator of the Lolcat was, we wouldn't give him this much attention. The only real difference is the level/means of initial publicity, and Savage asking his readers to be the first ones to propagate the new definition. They succeeded in that now most of the U.S. knows there is something peculiar about Rick Santorum's last name, or at least the act of googling it. Savage is responsible for starting the first little snowball; the avalanche is the avalanche. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 20:34, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- No Another attempt to use the voice of the encyclopedia to make a judgment about the propriety of this campaign, of course. Protonk (talk) 13:35, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- No per JamesMLane's theory of relativity reasoning. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 22:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- No - it goes against Wikipedia convention to avoid adding the inventor's or proponent's name to things, plus or minus. We don't call it Henry Ford's Model A, Martin Luther King's I have a Dream Speech, or Sirhan Sirhan's Shooting of Robert Kennedy. It serves no encyclopedic purpose to do that here, so I won't speculate about what nonencyclopedic purposes may be accomplished. BTW, hasn't this issue been decided already? - Wikidemon (talk) 22:31, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- No Savage started the campaign and organized it, but at least tens of thousands of people have participated in it. It is not his campaign. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- No - It is not our normal encyclopedic practice to attribute authorship to neologisms or, in this case, a notable campaign to establish a googlebombing word or neologism. Carrite (talk) 17:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- No - unless there arises some unrelated campaign for redefining "santorum", the current title succinctly identifies the topic. WP:TITLE repeatedly makes it clear that conciseness in titles is valued. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:16, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- No per Wikidemon Pass a Method talk 22:48, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Question: campaign, controversy or other?
Should the article's subject be described using the word "campaign," the word "controversy," or are other words more appropriate? elektrikSHOOS (talk) 17:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Campaign
- Comment: "Campaign for" addresses the argument of those who didn't like Santorum (neologism) (one of the former titles) because, they say, the word isn't widely used and therefore hasn't reached the status of a neologism. The advantage of "Campaign for" in conjunction with "neologism" is that it doesn't assert that the campaign has succeeded, only that an effort has been made, which I think is not disputed. The disadvantage of "Campaign" is that it suggests a sustained effort over time. Dan Savage hasn't done all that much since setting up the website and urging people to link to it. My bottom line is that I'd like to find an improvement on "Campaign" but right now I don't know of one, so by default I'd say to stick with it. JamesMLane t c 07:40, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- The disadvantage of "Campaign" is that it suggests a sustained effort over time.
- I'd call that accuracy and not a disadvantage. Santorum's recent elevation in status has, IMHO, initiated no small number of media references, some probably intended to resurrect the issue...and likely this reinvigorated discussion as well. Other than that though, a good assessment with which I concur and would opt for "Campaign for" as my second choice (not that anyone is asking about second choices). It may be perceived as clunky, but it is, apparently, digestible to most. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- In Savage’s view, there is no “campaign” anymore. He recently told a reader inquiring about “your campaign to redefine ‘santorum’”:
- Savage, Dan (2012-01-11). "Savage Love: Santorum Surges". The Stranger. ISSN 1935-9004.
First, GP, the campaign is over: Santorum has been redefined.
- Savage, Dan (2012-01-11). "Savage Love: Santorum Surges". The Stranger. ISSN 1935-9004.
- Savage considers this a fait accompli. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 08:11, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- In Savage’s view, there is no “campaign” anymore. He recently told a reader inquiring about “your campaign to redefine ‘santorum’”:
Controversy
Controversy covers all sides of the issue, avoids confusion, and is most appropriate given the original intent. Original post from May 15, 2003 ... 70.15.11.44 (talk) 18:25, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Other
- Political Attack - which most precisely represents reality. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Word - This may sound like a cop-out, but titling this article Santorum (word) avoids all of the issues that are causing, or being alleged to cause, the arguments at issue of late. The word word is more accessible than eponym; santorum is unequivocally a word whereas many editors have argued that it isn't a neologism; readers can judge for themselves whether or not the attempted definition is an attack without WP bashing them over the head with it in the title; and the phenomenon has grown beyond being a campaign by any one person or small group of people to the point where everyone who pays any attention to the news gets the joke when Jon Stewart shows CNN coloring Santorum's Iowa counties brown. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Meme - Because word might be a little too non-specific; its cultural penetration and decentralized propagation render campaign totally unsuitable; and controversy would imply that media and politicians are constantly arguing over whether the redefinition is legitimate or deplorable (which for the most part they're not, and didn't, even when the word was new). ☯.Zen Swashbuckler.☠ 19:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- I like it. It fits the definition of a (forced) meme. Speciate (talk) 05:11, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oooh, "meme" is good. (Interestingly a lot of the up-to-the-moment hits for Santorum meme are about his sweater vests, but I think we don't have to worry about anyone becoming confused.) –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 05:43, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well it would be till someone asks you to source it. There aren't many RS that use the word. Be——Critical 05:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Neologism - I understand people's complaint about the accuracy of this label because Savage didn't invent the original word but the complaint doesn't seem to be supported by the dictionary, at least Random House, which provides the definition "the introduction or use of new words or new senses of existing words" (emphasis mine). "Controversy" is inaccurate, because there's no argument or debate or question at the heart of this topic; it's just something a lot of people don't like. "Political attack" is inaccurate because, while the reason for the attack is political, the actual means of attack isn't. "Word" is overly vague. I don't hate "campaign" or "meme" but I prefer "neologism". Theoldsparkle (talk) 20:04, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your "Random House" link is persuasive but with a caveat. The already-discussed "Partridge" determination (which, as I understand it, is an accepted authority in these matters) that "santorum" does not rise to "neologism" status suggests that the "Random House" definition is less than complete. As long as the use of "neologism" is qualified by language suggesting that "santorum" has not yet attained "neologism" status (eg. the current "Campaign for"), then "neologism" would be my second choice. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Movement - "Spreading santorum is a movement" <link to non-RS removed>, "Savage started a movement", "... by launching an online movement through his Savage Love column to redefine the word 'Santorum.'" ... see also: Special:Search/intitle:Movement 70.15.11.44 (talk) 21:09, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly why can we not link to www.spreadingsantorum.com/archives/cat_santorum_letters.html in discussion? Primary sources can be used in talk page discussions about primary sources. BLP is not a cache-22, you have to be able to talk about something in order to talk about it. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Right at the moment, because I'm pissed off at the edit-warring and prepared to block or full-protect. Take it up at a noticeboard please, but I'm not willing to see more jousting here. Everyone knows what the web address is, there's no compelling need to link it unless you can gain a consensus of uninvolved editors that it should be linked. Franamax (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I might have missed some context here, was there edit warring over redacting the link from this !vote? Edit warring is indeed bad on both sides, but I do agree, BRD and consensus would suggest we leave the link off the article page unless there's a consensus to include, which does not look terribly likely. Linking to a sub-page to make a point about something that subpage says by way of discussing a different matter here on the talk page (whether to call it a neologism, word, movement, whatever) doesn't seem particularly contentious or harmful to living people. Anyway, all the best with efforts to keep order! - Wikidemon (talk) 23:22, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Right at the moment, because I'm pissed off at the edit-warring and prepared to block or full-protect. Take it up at a noticeboard please, but I'm not willing to see more jousting here. Everyone knows what the web address is, there's no compelling need to link it unless you can gain a consensus of uninvolved editors that it should be linked. Franamax (talk) 23:05, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Neologism. I'd say Santorum (neologism) > Campaign for "santorum" neologism > Santorum (word) > Santorum (Dan Savage) > Santorum (political attack) > Santorum (movement). Wnt (talk) 02:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Any of those are better than the current title (except the second one, of course). 70.15.11.44 (talk) 13:50, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It cannot be any of the form "santorum (descriptor)". The article is about Savage's google-bomb campaign/movement/whatever, it is not about the fake word itself. At one time it regrettably was, but due to some hard work by SlimVirgin last year, the article was cleaned up and focused, as it should have been alla along, on the campaign. Tarc (talk) 16:07, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Any of those are better than the current title (except the second one, of course). 70.15.11.44 (talk) 13:50, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- Spreadingsantorum.com. Why not just call it...what it is...the actual name of the website. It's really what this is all about anyway.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:20, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Second! Cut to the chase already, and call it what it is. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 03:26, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Derogatory eponym is pretty descriptive. Collect (talk) 23:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Eponym with or without a modifier like "derogatory" preceding. Eponymousness is this term's raison d'être. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 22:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- Santorum's Google problem Per WP:COMMONNAME, this is what the reliable sources call this subject, and we should do the same. Be——Critical 22:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- Political attack Most accurate. Second choice is spreadingsantorum.com. NYyankees51 (talk) 05:37, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
Question: Which grammatical classification is the most appropriate for the word in question?
As it relates to this article, which grammatical classification is the word santorum? Place response in bold with appropriate link, if needed. Please, table any arguments to omit any such classification from the title. This here is a question of classification, not about title inclusion as of yet. Keep in mind WP:OR. Examples: neologism, eponym, innuendo, slang, ironic metonymy, etc. ... 70.15.11.44 (talk) 18:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Eponym - While this may be a case of recording change in the process, a word stemming from an individual has been defined. Whether or not the definition sticks and regardless of its meaning, it was defined as such. citing ... Name game: The slang system has left Senator Santorum feeling very uneasy from The Independent, July 7, 2011. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Euphemism - Both sourced and, apparently, as defined per Wikipedia. If you follow the incorporated link to profane, you are presented with "profanity" as exemplified in '...words, expressions, gestures, or other social behaviors that are socially constructed or interpreted as insulting, rude, vulgar, obscene, desecrating or other forms." Savage wanted "santorum" turned into a euphemism that would make its way to neologism status. He got only as far as the euphemism aspect. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:25, 13 January 2012 (UTC)- Neologism, which describes the word. Euphemism is an ideal second choice per JakeInJoisey's argument above. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 19:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC) (switched them around; once I thought about it, neologism feels like a better choice to me elektrikSHOOS (talk) 19:40, 10 January 2012 (UTC))
- Not to detract from your feelings, but Wikipedia:Verifiability dictates the need for a more rigorous reasoning ... i.e. citation needed. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Assuming "campaign" remains incorporated, "neologism" might be accurate if it's presented as Savage's "goal". However, with all the recent carping as to "sourcing", where is the sourcing documenting Savage's intent to "campaign" for, specifically, a "neologism"? The only sourcing I recall is the "Partridge" rejection of "santorum" for consideration as a "neologism". JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, carping for verification. Are you knocking references? And if you recall a source, please share it. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 20:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Assuming "campaign" remains incorporated, "neologism" might be accurate if it's presented as Savage's "goal". However, with all the recent carping as to "sourcing", where is the sourcing documenting Savage's intent to "campaign" for, specifically, a "neologism"? The only sourcing I recall is the "Partridge" rejection of "santorum" for consideration as a "neologism". JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not to detract from your feelings, but Wikipedia:Verifiability dictates the need for a more rigorous reasoning ... i.e. citation needed. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 19:49, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- Derogatory eponym would be by far the most accurate. The "definition" is specifically gemacht to be derogatory. Collect (talk) 20:20, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
- A truly apropos idea. It concisely embodies the undeniable nature of the word in its full context, that of a slight affronting the very person whose name it is redefining. Though the question comes into play, whether it is truly derogatory in a neutral sense of the word. But first, let's have a comparative study:
- Eponymous slur
- Eponymous slight
- Slanderous eponym
- Insulting eponym
- Derogatory eponym
- While the eponymous nature of the word is not in question, the character is, as well as the appropriateness of the term being used to describe it. It is first and foremost, eponymous. It is only strictly a neologism to those who seek to include "-gism" in the title of this Wikipedia article, to further their own designs. Whether the character is derogatory or not is probably subjective enough to not include. But some exampling of the nature of the word should be addressed. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 14:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- While the eponymous nature of the word is not in question...
- Oh, but it is in question. Your provided source illustrates and suggests via the examples provided that an eponym has its genesis in some characteristic directly attributable to the namesake and is also commonly understood in colloquial use. That is hardly the case here. Instead, a "definition" was fabricated from whole cloth and a surname designated to represent that definition. While its author might certainly delight in its characterization as a bona fide "eponym", it is an "eponym" wannabe just as much as it is a "neologism" wannabe. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is an eponym, not an "eponym wannabe" because there is not doubt that the term is named after an individual and who that individual is. An eponym is simply "a word derived from the proper name of a person or place" so santorum's eponymous nature is not at issue. That it's insulting to the proper name it is derived from doesn't stop it from being an eponym. Vale of Glamorgan (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- The problem with neologism, is that while this is a new definition, it is not a new word (string of characters). The only pre-existing definition was merely a proper noun, but non-the-less, it is not an altogether new word. It is, however, altogether eponymous; in that, the new definition uses an existing proper noun as its word. One trumps the other, you see. For compromise, and clarification as to the nature of the usage of a proper noun with new meaning, a modifier (such as "derogatory" or whatever) could be used, but isn't (IMO) required. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, it's altogether an eponym. And like I said above, its eponymousness is central to the issue. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 22:09, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
- The problem with neologism, is that while this is a new definition, it is not a new word (string of characters). The only pre-existing definition was merely a proper noun, but non-the-less, it is not an altogether new word. It is, however, altogether eponymous; in that, the new definition uses an existing proper noun as its word. One trumps the other, you see. For compromise, and clarification as to the nature of the usage of a proper noun with new meaning, a modifier (such as "derogatory" or whatever) could be used, but isn't (IMO) required. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is an eponym, not an "eponym wannabe" because there is not doubt that the term is named after an individual and who that individual is. An eponym is simply "a word derived from the proper name of a person or place" so santorum's eponymous nature is not at issue. That it's insulting to the proper name it is derived from doesn't stop it from being an eponym. Vale of Glamorgan (talk) 01:24, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- A truly apropos idea. It concisely embodies the undeniable nature of the word in its full context, that of a slight affronting the very person whose name it is redefining. Though the question comes into play, whether it is truly derogatory in a neutral sense of the word. But first, let's have a comparative study:
moot content
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Meta Comment: There is already a well responded to poll currently in progress as to the appropriateness of "eponym". This question/section should be tabled pending some determination (if any) from that ongoing process. Unless there is some objection raised, I'm going to hat this section pending the outcome of the prior process. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:31, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Your "meta comment" is directed at "eponym". Otherwise, your argument is baseless ... pending the point of order requested above. 70.15.11.44 (talk) 13:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
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- Noun "Thus was born the noun “santorum” – a word whose definition is so unsavoury the ex-senator has been trying to get Google to remove it from its search engine." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/a-republican-menace-or-a-messiah/article2294732/?utm_medium=Feeds%3A%20RSS%2FAtom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2294732 88.166.32.210 (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- If we're going to be that vague we might as well say word. Noun also isn't useful as a disambiguation since that other Santorum is a noun too. Vale of Glamorgan (talk) 03:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- common noun as distinct from Santorum the proper noun :) "Savage redefined the word “santorum” as a common noun describing a “frothy mixture” of substances that might stain the bedsheets after particularly vigorous man-on-man action of the type Santorum, the person, vocally disapproves." http://www.dailydot.com/politics/rick-santorum-google-search/ 88.166.32.210 (talk) 03:53, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Comment I am commenting here per a request by JakeInJoisey at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#Linguistic Expertise Solicited. I have no opinion on the "most appropriate" label, but offer these observations on those currently suggested.
- Noun. If one accepts that santorum exists as a word in roughly the sense described on this page (which, it must be acknowledged, is not an uncontroversial assumption), that word is certainly a noun. The proper noun Santorum, referring to Rick Santorum or other similarly named people, is also a noun.
- Neologism/Coinage. The word is a neologism, since it was coined within recent memory. It could also be called a coinage, on the same basis; coinage sometimes conveys the additional sense of an unnecessary or specious new word.
- Your observation appears to conflict with the position taken by "Partridge" as reflected in the prior discussion here. Can you reconcile what appears to be the difference in positions? Thanks. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well, Partridge pointed out that the status of santorum as a true neologism was in question under their rules because the entire manner in which it came to cultural significance was Savage's column and website, not a more "natural" use that grew organically by people actually using the word to describe the substance (this being what separates it from other deliberate neologisms like Truthiness). But if Cnilep is right, then coinage would work here regardless of Partidge's stance on neologism, as coinage does not necessarily imply the organic widespread use of the word, only its deliberate creation and a notable degree of awareness of it. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 16:44, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- ...I should add to the preceding: If Cnilep is right and I've understood him correctly. Thanks. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 16:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- It appears that Partridge rejects santorum on the grounds that (1) it was deliberately coined and (2) it is not actually in use. The disclaimer I included under "noun" should apply to all of these remarks: they assume, not uncontroversially, that santorum actually exists (is used) as a word. Partridge, it seems, does not make that assumption. Cnilep (talk) 01:48, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your observation appears to conflict with the position taken by "Partridge" as reflected in the prior discussion here. Can you reconcile what appears to be the difference in positions? Thanks. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:38, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Eponym. The word may be regarded as an eponym under some senses of the word, but the most common sense of eponym seems to be the name of the person after which something is called (e.g. "Pelops is the eponym or name-giver of the Peloponnêsus." Grote, History of Greece, 1846), rather than the thing called by that person's name (e.g. "The eponym malapropism was coined from the character Mrs. Malaprop" Membean (web site), 2011). The former is the only relevant sense listed in the Oxford English Dictionary second edition, though the latter sense does appear in draft revisions from 1993. The name-giving-person sense is the first sense given in Meriam Webster's 10th, though, again, the thing-so-named sense is the second sense given.
- Interesting. So, if I understand your position correctly and referencing the specifics of this discussion, "Santorum" (surname namesake) is, in the "most common sense", the "eponym" in this equation while "santorum" (the object referenced) would be currently rejected by "Oxford" but accepted by Meriam Webster as an "eponym". Have I got that right? Further, if the COMMON noun "santorum" was non-existent but created and defined at the same time, then it has no identification or association with the PROPER (and existing) noun "Santorum" other than spelling. Could that still be legitimately characterized as an "eponym" given those circumstances? JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:14, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Euphemism. The common noun santorum is not, strictly speaking, a euphemism; a euphemism is a new or less-distasteful substitute for a taboo or offensive word. The new word did not substitute for an older one.
- Metonymy. Likewise, the word does not refer to an object or phenomenon by reference to something associated with it, a necessary element in metonymy.
- Innuendo. Single words, out of context, are generally not regarded as innuendo – a indirect reference to something negative.
- Slang. Although the word is certainly not standard, and therefore edges toward slang, it is also not clear if it is used by any in-group of speakers, a usual necessity for slang.
Cnilep (talk) 04:32, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks very much for your observations and I'm confident they'll serve to inspire some additional thought. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:03, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Why isn't SpreadingSantorum.com in External Links?
It seems counterintuitive to me that this article does not link to SpreadingSantorum.com itself, apparently by a deliberate decision. Can someone explain to me why there should not be one? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 11:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its a specifically designed blogger attack site against a single living person that is the subject of one of our BLP articles. There are some pretty demeaning and offensive posts there, we don't need to link to such a site, it's plenty to discuss the sites existence and unnecessary to link to it. Youreallycan 11:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's a deliberate decision to keep this article separate from its subject: the article is about the campaign, not part of it. However, the name of the campaign's site (in both of its versions) is in the article, if you need it. -- The Anome (talk) 12:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's some convoluted gobbledegook. It's absurd that we talk about it but won't link to it. The "attack site" rules aren't pertinent here. For what it's worth, any interested reader can go ahead and type it into google or their web browser. - Wikidemon (talk) 12:17, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Another issue is that linking to the site is actually part of the attack - the link has been spammed and google bombed and it is the clicking on the link that keeps the attack site as the first search return for his name - wikipedia BLP policy suggests that the project would not want to be part of that attack by unnecessarily linking directly from this site to the attack. Youreallycan 12:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The googlebombIts search ranking is an effect of linking the text "santorum" to SpreadingSantorum.com. Linking "SpreadingSantorum.com" to SpreadingSantorum.com would only affect search results for "SpreadingSantorum.com", which does not contribute tothe googlebombits "santorum" rank. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 12:35, 22 January 2012, Ed. 25 January 2012 (UTC)- And Wikipedia is not here in order to name "Spreadingsantorum.com" three thundred times either. Do you really think that this is the purpose of Wikipedia? To name the site as many times as one can on a page or pages? I fear that whether Google existed or not is irrelevant to the fact that spamming a site name is still spamming. As Gertrude Stein would have said: A spam is a spam is a spam." Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why would you think that anyone thinks that the purpose of Wikipedia is to name a site as many times as one can? Do try to discuss this rationally, Collect. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 12:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am not expert on google bombing to raise the profile of a website but adding a link from here to the attack site will add page views thereby raising the sites profile and add to the attack. Youreallycan 12:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's probably true, but that's also an effect of having this article at all. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 12:50, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The purpose of this article should be to document its subject, without, as far as possible, either aiding or suppressing the campaign it describes. Mentioning, but not linking, the domain names of the campaign sites is an attempt to maintain that balance. -- The Anome (talk) 12:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- And Wikipedia is not here in order to name "Spreadingsantorum.com" three thundred times either. Do you really think that this is the purpose of Wikipedia? To name the site as many times as one can on a page or pages? I fear that whether Google existed or not is irrelevant to the fact that spamming a site name is still spamming. As Gertrude Stein would have said: A spam is a spam is a spam." Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I reverted removal of the link to spreadingsantorum.com once, very very roughly an hour ago, as its appropriateness for this article seemed (and seems) blazingly obvious. I later found that the article had lacked the link for some time. I wondered why. A quick look showed this discussion of whether or not there should be a link, but the discussion seems inconclusive to me. -- Hoary (talk) 13:03, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Please feel free to re-start the discussion: it's certainly an issue without a single obvious clear solution that would satisfy everyone. However, the current compromise has held up pretty well for some time. (Just for clarification, I would be happy to see the link put in the article; but I can also see that many people would see that as provocative and counter to policy, and I can see their point of view as well. The current compromise works for me. I should also mention at this point that although Wikipedia external links have NOFOLLOW set, this is by no means universally honoured by reusers of content.) -- The Anome (talk) 13:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I was about to comment on the matter of NOFOLLOW. Thank you for the invitation to restart the discussion. I don't propose to do so, because the matter promises to take some time, I'm not all that concerned, the discussion may well generate less light than heat (especially during the next month or two in the political career of RS), and I'm busy. But I'll register my dismay at the way in which these "BLP" concerns are being used to remove a link from an article on a matter for which the site linked (or not) would seem to be of key importance. (By comparison, the article "Westboro Baptist Church" is I think right to have a link to its "official site", godhatesfags.com, no matter how offensive this site may be.) -- Hoary (talk) 13:32, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that BLP, properly read, would limit us from linking to a notable site designed to criticize the positions of a politician simply because it chooses a deliberately shocking of doing so. Nor does linking to a site make us responsible for the entirety of its contents.
- As far as a BLP analysis of this article goes, I'd be much more concerned that we repeat a claim of Savage being a "foul" person who does "horrible things" right in the lede. I'm not suggesting we need to remove that quote, because I think when reporting on a notable feud between public figures, we have a fair amount of leeway to dispassionately present the content of the dispute, and the site is a notable part of that content.--Trystan (talk) 15:37, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I am reading two rationales - one that adding the link influences search engine results and that this is inappropriate, and that it is a BLP violation. So as not to influence the search engine result, I am listing the link without hyperlinking it. If it needs to be further disguised I would not be opposed. For the BLP violation I would like to hear a rationale about how having this link is any more of a violation than having this article. I think the link should be included because it is fundamental to understanding the nature of the campaign. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:51, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
In Wikipedia's external links guideline, WP:ELOFFICIAL overrides WP:ELNO, but WP:ELNEVER overrides WP:ELOFFICIAL. So in an article about an attack site, the question of whether or not to include the official web site of this campaign hinges on whether this BLP violation falls under WP:ELNO or WP:ELNEVER. --Damian Yerrick (talk | stalk) 15:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- No - Wikipedia clearly suggests that WP:BLP concerns outweigh "attack page official sites" for sure - this is not even a close call. Meanwhile, if an EL is improper, it is improper even if Nowikied. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:09, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- You are confusing notable criticism with what is basic anger. This isn't a disagreement with a political position, this is Savage saying, I don't like your opinion so I am going try and get other people to say that your last name is "Shit". This is the political debate of a four year old, and the website is the tantrum response. Savage is free to scream whatever he wants from the top of the mountain, and since it is a story we can talk about Savage's screaming from the mountain. This, however, does not mean that we must provide a link to the mountain to further promote Savage's screed, especially when it is nothing more than a personal attack on a living person. The website itself doesn't even say anything that isn't already in the article. The only real benefit to anyone is Savage, in that it gets the link out there some more. Arzel (talk) 17:35, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think it is appropriate for us to make editorial decisions based on our personal assessment of how mature or effective Savage's criticisms of Santorum are.
- Clearly there isn't going to be consensus to add the URL (linked or unlinked) to the external links section. As long as it doesn't get censored from the article entirely, I for one am content to drop the issue.--Trystan (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- At some point we'll have to consider what the preponderant opinion here is. I agree that it is nonsense not to include the link in External links, and nofollow mitigates most of the concerns one could raise. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- No follow relates only to this site - this part of the objection is related to the fact that this site is mirrored at a hundred, or even hundreds of other sites, that do not follow the same standards as wiki no follow. Youreallycan 18:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not aware that Wikipedia policy requires that we adapt our approach to the consequences that might emerge at other websites -- I would be surprised if this is the case, though I'm happy to admit that I could be wrong. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:04, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- No follow relates only to this site - this part of the objection is related to the fact that this site is mirrored at a hundred, or even hundreds of other sites, that do not follow the same standards as wiki no follow. Youreallycan 18:42, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- At some point we'll have to consider what the preponderant opinion here is. I agree that it is nonsense not to include the link in External links, and nofollow mitigates most of the concerns one could raise. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Linking to attack page
The issue is whether this article should link to the website called spreading santorum. Here are the issues:
- There is the assertion that Wikipedia's linking to this site causes Wikipedia to participate in its promotion in a non-informational way, i.e. by changing its search engine rank external to Wikipedia
- Wikipedia has policies which prohibit linking to attack sites, and this site is an attack site
- Regardless of the linking policy, Wikipedia has WP:BLP regulations which are prime and override everything else, and linking to this site violates BLP rules
Are there other issues?
The reason I assert for linking to the site is that the site is the official website describing this article. The "campaign for 'santorum' neologism"'s model has been to promote that website, and it is not possible for anyone to understand this article without understanding that this website exists and can be visited.
user:Damian Yerrick suggested that WP:ELNEVER applies; I think this must be a mistake because that is only about copyright and I do not know of anyone claiming that the site violates copyright. WP:ELNO says, "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject, one should generally avoid..." and I assert that this site is the official page of the article's subject, so I say that does not apply.
I feel that point 1 about the influencing search engine rank can be mediated somehow if that is a problem - we can put the address in a picture so that engines will not see it.
Users arzel and collect say there is a BLP violation but I do not understand. What is the BLP argument for not including the link? How is including the link any more of a BLP violation than the existence of this Wikipedia article about the campaign embodied in that website? Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The first objection (that we are promoting an offensive idea by mentioning it) is a canard, as it is fundamentally opposed to the mission of an encyclopedia. We mention every subject under the sun, neutrally and without censorship, not adding our own efforts however righteous to elevate or downplay the subject in the public's mind. Many people make it their job to spread beliefs, religions, styles and tastes, and they create images, memes, sound bites and catch phrases, and publicity events specifically to spread through public media. If a terrorist organization kills people to gain notoriety and spread fear, or a credit card company engineers a holiday to increase sales, we don't avoid talking to them, or linking to their official sites, in an effort to avoid becoming a mouthpiece for their message. We're a neutral conduit that spreads all messages, good and bad. As to BLP overriding all else, if that were true we would just shutter the project because we can and do hurt living people. It's hard to argue that a politician now running for President who likened gays to pedophiles and practitioners of bestiality is so powerless and victimized that he needs our protection from the comeuppance of those he insulted. That's not our business. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Who says that Santorum needs to be protected. The argument here is whether to link to an attack website. It is not like the website adds any information, and it is not all that clear why there is such a desire to link to a site that has no intrinsical value, provide no additional information about the topic, and serves only to push up page hits for the denegrating term. Arzel (talk) 22:12, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I dispute that the website has no value and provides no information because it meets WP:N. If you have a rationale for saying that something can meet WP:N yet not have value then I would like to hear more about it, because I thought N was the standard. If you are concerned about page hits, then how would you feel about the website address being embedded in a picture which no bot could read? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The website is simply the definition which is already included. Please tell me how that provides any valuable information. Arzel (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The link is to the landing page of a site that seems to function as a blog. The splash - or should I say splat? - page includes design, layout, and social media elements, and the infamous brown splatter image described in the article, which is worth minus a thousand words right there. The blog contains quite a bit of content and is updated regularly. I haven't had the urge to read it in any depth, but it does seem to contain updates on the google bomb campaign, and more general political advocacy. So yes, a lot more there than is, or can be, in the article. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the leading page is a link to a blog (WP:EL 11). Although I would debate that it contains anything of value since it is little more than attacks on Santorum. And if the Blog is the primary reason for inclusion than it violates WP:EL number 11. Arzel (talk) 01:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- It does not matter at all what the page contains or that it is a blog, because even if the page contained content which was meaningful to you that would not make it notable. It is notable only because it is the official website for the campaign for the santorum neologism, which is the focus of this article. It is further notable because it is the subject of many articles in reliable sources. Do you dispute that it is the official website of this campaign? Do you dispute that it is the focus of many reliable sources which are cited in the references of this article? Under WP:EL, the first rule of what should be linked is "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, website, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any. See Official links below." In WP:ELOFFICIAL it says that "These links are exempt from the links normally to be avoided..." which includes things like being a blog or having no content. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- This article is not about the website, therefore WP:ELOFFICIAL is irrelevant. Arzel (talk) 18:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you kidding?!? The very item you just linked specifically says:
An official link is a link to a website or other Internet service that meets both of the following:
1. The linked content is controlled by the subject (organization or individual person) of the Wikipedia article.
2. The linked content primarily covers the area for which the subject of the article is notable.
- Explain to all of us how the very website that is running the campaign doesn't meet those conditions. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- This article is not about the website, therefore WP:ELOFFICIAL is irrelevant. Arzel (talk) 18:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- ELofficial is not a guarantee of inclusion and it was not created for single instances and exception as this. Anyone that take a while to read the content hosted on that blogger site will accept it is primarily in existence to attack a living person and that content is hosted there that demeans and desires a single living person that is the subject of one of our biographies. Linking to the blogger site is part of the attack againt the person. As such WP:BLP supported by a bit of WP:IAR allows and encourages us not to link to it. Youreallycan 15:37, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- It does not matter at all what the page contains or that it is a blog, because even if the page contained content which was meaningful to you that would not make it notable. It is notable only because it is the official website for the campaign for the santorum neologism, which is the focus of this article. It is further notable because it is the subject of many articles in reliable sources. Do you dispute that it is the official website of this campaign? Do you dispute that it is the focus of many reliable sources which are cited in the references of this article? Under WP:EL, the first rule of what should be linked is "Wikipedia articles about any organization, person, website, or other entity should link to the subject's official site, if any. See Official links below." In WP:ELOFFICIAL it says that "These links are exempt from the links normally to be avoided..." which includes things like being a blog or having no content. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:25, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the leading page is a link to a blog (WP:EL 11). Although I would debate that it contains anything of value since it is little more than attacks on Santorum. And if the Blog is the primary reason for inclusion than it violates WP:EL number 11. Arzel (talk) 01:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- The link is to the landing page of a site that seems to function as a blog. The splash - or should I say splat? - page includes design, layout, and social media elements, and the infamous brown splatter image described in the article, which is worth minus a thousand words right there. The blog contains quite a bit of content and is updated regularly. I haven't had the urge to read it in any depth, but it does seem to contain updates on the google bomb campaign, and more general political advocacy. So yes, a lot more there than is, or can be, in the article. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:28, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- The website is simply the definition which is already included. Please tell me how that provides any valuable information. Arzel (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Isn't it a good enough compromise that we do include an external links section, but do not link but rather put www.spreadingsantorum.com in plain text? Be——Critical 22:47, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Either a plain text link or a link in a picture is, so far as I know, unprecedented. I am not sure that Wikipedians are even supposed to worry about this because this sounds like a legal issue which users have no position to debate anyway. I think I might like to have the conversation just be about whether the article benefits from the link, and whether the link constitutes as a personal attack, and if the article benefits and it is not an attack then the link goes in as a link unless the WMF says that this is legally harmful. I know nothing whatsoever about how search engine ranks are affected by the text or linking of Wikipedia articles, and so far as I know, no one in this discussion does either. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do: Wikipedia external links have a special property, called "nofollow," which the wiki software inserts in every external link. That means Wikipedia cannot be used to effect Google rankings. Be——Critical 23:53, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- En Wikipedia is mirrored to hundreds of other www sites that do not stop bots using nofollow. Adding an external link to a wikipedia article massively increases the traffic to that site. Youreallycan 00:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- The practices of other websites are not our concern. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- En Wikipedia is mirrored to hundreds of other www sites that do not stop bots using nofollow. Adding an external link to a wikipedia article massively increases the traffic to that site. Youreallycan 00:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do: Wikipedia external links have a special property, called "nofollow," which the wiki software inserts in every external link. That means Wikipedia cannot be used to effect Google rankings. Be——Critical 23:53, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Either a plain text link or a link in a picture is, so far as I know, unprecedented. I am not sure that Wikipedians are even supposed to worry about this because this sounds like a legal issue which users have no position to debate anyway. I think I might like to have the conversation just be about whether the article benefits from the link, and whether the link constitutes as a personal attack, and if the article benefits and it is not an attack then the link goes in as a link unless the WMF says that this is legally harmful. I know nothing whatsoever about how search engine ranks are affected by the text or linking of Wikipedia articles, and so far as I know, no one in this discussion does either. Blue Rasberry (talk) 23:30, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- I dispute that the website has no value and provides no information because it meets WP:N. If you have a rationale for saying that something can meet WP:N yet not have value then I would like to hear more about it, because I thought N was the standard. If you are concerned about page hits, then how would you feel about the website address being embedded in a picture which no bot could read? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Who says that Santorum needs to be protected. The argument here is whether to link to an attack website. It is not like the website adds any information, and it is not all that clear why there is such a desire to link to a site that has no intrinsical value, provide no additional information about the topic, and serves only to push up page hits for the denegrating term. Arzel (talk) 22:12, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
The preponderance of opinion seems to be for including the external link, as a link. I see one argument against having the link which really makes common sense, and that is Youreallycan's argument that other sites which mirror this one might drive up the google rank. The other arguments don't make any real sense, if we are going to have the article at all. It seems to me that Youreallycan's argument takes our concern for our external effects to new heights, and many here are arguing that we should not modify our editing based on what happens offsite. Be——Critical 00:15, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- That is just a part of my policy driven objection to adding this external link to en wikipedia - primarily - its a blogger site - created to attack a living person - there is a lot of attack and demeaning user generated content, and defaming content hosted on the blogger site, as such, its not even a primary reliable source - Youreallycan 00:33, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- The site is not a reliable source. It is a primary source, not that this matters, because it is not being used to source any information. The link is only to give a demonstration of what the article is about as it is the official website for the subject of the article. The site is created to attack a living person and it does contain demeaning user generated content. I find nothing about those characteristics any more objectionable than the existence of this article, and if the article exists, then I think the quality of the article is greatly diminished by not also including this link. Do you feel this article should exist? If the article exists, do you think it can be understand fully without access to the official website? Is there a Wikipedia policy which says anything about the community's duty to censor Wikipedia in anticipation of what external sites will do with the information on Wikipedia? Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- In summary; this article already demeans Santorum, so there is no reason to object to the blog site that is the source of the personal attack. Why don't we just ignore BLP and WP:EL on every article? Arzel (talk) 01:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see that as an accurate summary. And if this article demeans Santorum in any way, then point to that part and we'll fix it. Be——Critical 02:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:ELOFFICIAL says that it overrides most other WP:EL concerns. Please respond to that if that does not relieve your concern. Also, what is the BLP concern? It is a rare circumstance that an attack site is the focus of international notoriety consistently for nine years. Are you disputing the notability of the site, and you see it as a non-notable attack page? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like a general consensus to have the link, without taking any extraordinary measures like putting it in plain text or a picture. Be——Critical 18:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like you simply are ignoring those that disagree with you. Arzel (talk) 17:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, pot. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 18:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like you simply are ignoring those that disagree with you. Arzel (talk) 17:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- It looks to me like a general consensus to have the link, without taking any extraordinary measures like putting it in plain text or a picture. Be——Critical 18:54, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:ELOFFICIAL says that it overrides most other WP:EL concerns. Please respond to that if that does not relieve your concern. Also, what is the BLP concern? It is a rare circumstance that an attack site is the focus of international notoriety consistently for nine years. Are you disputing the notability of the site, and you see it as a non-notable attack page? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:42, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see that as an accurate summary. And if this article demeans Santorum in any way, then point to that part and we'll fix it. Be——Critical 02:03, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- In summary; this article already demeans Santorum, so there is no reason to object to the blog site that is the source of the personal attack. Why don't we just ignore BLP and WP:EL on every article? Arzel (talk) 01:46, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- The site is not a reliable source. It is a primary source, not that this matters, because it is not being used to source any information. The link is only to give a demonstration of what the article is about as it is the official website for the subject of the article. The site is created to attack a living person and it does contain demeaning user generated content. I find nothing about those characteristics any more objectionable than the existence of this article, and if the article exists, then I think the quality of the article is greatly diminished by not also including this link. Do you feel this article should exist? If the article exists, do you think it can be understand fully without access to the official website? Is there a Wikipedia policy which says anything about the community's duty to censor Wikipedia in anticipation of what external sites will do with the information on Wikipedia? Blue Rasberry (talk) 01:38, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Attack sites is a rejected proposal. This is a very old debate that has happened multiple times. We have linked to many, many worse pages. There is absolutely no reason the link should not be included. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- There is absolutely no value to make the link. The website serves only to attack the subject and fails via WP:BLP Arzel (talk) 17:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I realize that's your opinion, but you've failed to gain the consensus of others on this page. Since you haven't brought up any new reasons for rejecting the link, I don't see the consensus as having changed. Be——Critical 18:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Concur with Arzel's assessment as an accurate reflection of the the now-archived prior discussion of this issue here and here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- A number of pros and cons. There appears to be consensus at the moment for including the link, although there was no consensus (as opposed to consensus to remove) in a prior discussion. Consensus can change and this is only the second or third time, but after a while it's best to settle things and be done with them, not to keep rehashing old things or declare a new consensus hastily. Few new facts since then, except some ongoing news coverage, and with Santorum as a leading candidate close to an election it's a more current issue. This discussion is wider and involves a number of new participants. Normally BRD would suggest that there has to be a consensus to add or make a change, but this isn't that exact of situation. The content is already there, and some are proposing that we break with normal editing style by failing to include a link we would normally include - so I'd say it's up to them to demonstrate why. I haven't seen a viable BLP issue or solid reason why removing the link would better serve the encyclopedia (not saying the argument is misplaced, just not a winner). Truly, whether the link is there or not makes very little difference, which may be the reason people opposing it got the upper hand last time, it's really not that important to include it and some people strongly object. On balance, at the very least I'd wait a while or else revisit it after the election, there's no deadline here. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- If there is consensus to include and it's a matter of "failing to include a link we would normally include", I think there's not much of a case for not including it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see that the prior discussions ended in a clear consensus not to include (as Wikidemon points out); rather they petered out as people grew tired of hearing the same arguments over and over. What looks to me like the most cited policy in those discussions, WP:BLPSPS, doesn't apply because we're not intending to use this link as information about Rick Santorum, we're using it as the WP:ELOFFICIAL to the subject of this article. It is no different than putting the link to Rick Santorum's official campaign website on the Rick Santorum article. Our article makes painfully clear that Wikipedia is not endorsing the views expressed in the external link, and that we are linking it solely because it is at the heart of the campaign itself, integral to the article subject. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- A number of pros and cons. There appears to be consensus at the moment for including the link, although there was no consensus (as opposed to consensus to remove) in a prior discussion. Consensus can change and this is only the second or third time, but after a while it's best to settle things and be done with them, not to keep rehashing old things or declare a new consensus hastily. Few new facts since then, except some ongoing news coverage, and with Santorum as a leading candidate close to an election it's a more current issue. This discussion is wider and involves a number of new participants. Normally BRD would suggest that there has to be a consensus to add or make a change, but this isn't that exact of situation. The content is already there, and some are proposing that we break with normal editing style by failing to include a link we would normally include - so I'd say it's up to them to demonstrate why. I haven't seen a viable BLP issue or solid reason why removing the link would better serve the encyclopedia (not saying the argument is misplaced, just not a winner). Truly, whether the link is there or not makes very little difference, which may be the reason people opposing it got the upper hand last time, it's really not that important to include it and some people strongly object. On balance, at the very least I'd wait a while or else revisit it after the election, there's no deadline here. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Concur with Arzel's assessment as an accurate reflection of the the now-archived prior discussion of this issue here and here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:40, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I realize that's your opinion, but you've failed to gain the consensus of others on this page. Since you haven't brought up any new reasons for rejecting the link, I don't see the consensus as having changed. Be——Critical 18:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is absolutely no value to make the link. The website serves only to attack the subject and fails via WP:BLP Arzel (talk) 17:59, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Someone please list the people who support the different approaches so that we can see what the dominant view here is. BTW, I think it makes a big difference that WP:ATTACKSITES is a failed proposal. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Straw poll on EL
I am summarizing the discussion, but I was also a participant so someone please check the point of view in this table and feel free to edit it!
Summary of arguments about link inclusion | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
pro | against | counterpoint | ||
site has value as the official site of the subject of the article | site content described sufficiently in this article; site content has no value | |||
The campaign the article describes is very highly connected to this website | Article is not about the website | |||
site violates WP:EL #11 | site meets WP:OFFICIAL | |||
site violates WP:BLPSPS | This is not a BLP, and the site is not being used as a source of information. And if the site is not a source of information than it has no value. | |||
Link violates WP:ATTACKSITES | WP:ATTACKSITES is a failed proposal | |||
site violates WP:BLP | It is the consensus that the article does not violate BLP, and the article is partially about the site. | |||
including the link means participating in a "Google bomb" | Wikipedia uses nofollow links; other sites re-posting Wikipedia content is not a reason to censor Wikipedia | |||
linking to the site personally enriches Dan Savage | not obvious if this is true or why this is relevant | |||
WP:SOAP If the site is the "Spearhead" of the campaign as argued then it fails | That's an argument for deleting the article; if we keep the article, we need the link | |||
Giving the link promotes the site | Giving the link is more likely to make people disgusted at the site, and even if it did promote it, it's not our business to censor Wikipedia because we don't like something. |
Here are the previous discussions on this topic - here and here.
It seems like some people are saying that linking to the site constitutes a violation of BLP, but describing the site does not constitute BLP. I propose a straw poll to try to identify all the objections to including the link, and to get responses to the counterpoints made to objections. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Any point making it official as a WP:RFC? - Wikidemon (talk) 22:01, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would not oppose that, but since I proposed the poll, I think it would be best if someone else proposed the RFC. You, perhaps? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Only If you don't prefer a definitive consensus resolution to 11 more months of incessant carping. What wording would you suggest? JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:09, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would not oppose that, but since I proposed the poll, I think it would be best if someone else proposed the RFC. You, perhaps? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Include the link
- The only argument against including it is that it is a violation of BLP, but no one has said why: in what way does the link violate BLP, that the article does not? If it is our consensus that the article does not violate BLP, why would the link violate BLP? Having the link is natural in the circumstances, and does not promote the site content in any way. Wikipedia should not base its own text on what external sites may or may not do, or on possible but unspecified consequences outside our control. The necessity to consider harm per BLP does not extend beyond reason, and the link meets the inclusion test even for a biography. Wikipedia is comprehensive. Be——Critical 19:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- If the article itself can exist (in conformity with BLP) as I think it can (and as previous deletion discussions have established quite definitively), then I see no reason the link cannot be included. In fact adding the link almost seems like a minor point, an afterthought, given the nature of the article. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BLPSPS doesn't apply, since this article is Campaign for "santorum" neologism, not Rick Santorum; since this is only tangentially a BLP-related article, the only policy on the BLP page I can see that applies is WP:WELLKNOWN. Now if there were a WP:BLPNOHELPINGJERKS policy, that said in effect "Wikipedia articles shall not cover anything consisting solely of people being assholes to each other," then we could delete this entire article, about half the Opie and Anthony page, everything on this page that can't be replaced with official court citations, and certain sections of Alex Rodriguez. Sorry, couldn't resist. Since there's no such thing, though, all of this content remains, including this article, which should have a full complement of external links just like any other page. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 20:30, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- We would normally include a link in this type of article, and there's no reason not to include the link here. We have this entire article about Dan Savage attacking Rick Santorum. It's not a BLP violation to provide an actual link to the attack, and nobody's explained how it would be a BLP violation; what are we saying with the link that hasn't been said in the article? I haven't found any other article about a similar topic where we refrained from linking to the relevant official site; Stormfront (website), for example, links to that forum, which is filled with truly vile, hateful stuff. Theoldsparkle (talk) 21:45, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, this is pretty obvious. None of the listed arguments against hold any weight, and the counterarguments are correct. The site is a primary subject of the article. It diminishes the encyclopedic value of the article and violates WP:NPOV and WP:NOTCENSORED to refuse to cover a topic, and to refuse to allow readers to even examine it, out of an objection to the subject matter. Many find the site distasteful, and many will find other websites we cover distasteful. We do not play favorites with knowledge. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:58, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is appropriate to include a link to the official website of the subject of the article. Edison (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- The site should be linked to to illustrate the subject of the article. The only reason I have seen against including the link in all the discussion to date is WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Of course, WP:BLP and WP:EL have been mentioned, but no one has demonstrated how including the link would violate these policies (despite numerous requests), and I can find nothing in them to exclude the link myself. At this point, I consider further mention of WP:BLP and WP:EL as not only counterproductive, but purposefully disruptive, and a mere cover for WP:IDONTLIKEIT. I'm not inclined to assume good faith anymore, unless concrete and specific reasons are produced. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:16, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Link to it. WP:ELOFFICIAL puts it squarely under WP:ELYES. Opponents have been unable to justify their WP:CRYBLP. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 23:34, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is not an official organization or movement, simply a blog page of someone that hates Santorum. Whining WP:CRYBLP does not bode well for WP:AGF Arzel (talk) 03:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course it's a movement, to promote a definition of santorum. Which they notably did by making SpreadingSantorum.com the #1 search result for santorum. SpreadingSantorum.com is the spearhead of that campaign. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 05:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP is not a Soapbox to promote a political agenda, which is all that site is trying to do, albeit in a juvenile manner. Arzel (talk) 05:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- By that reasoning we should remove just about every EL for any controversial subject matter on the project, including Rick Santorum's own links. Ridiculous. You're really stretching here and making your better arguments less credulous. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- WP is not a Soapbox to promote a political agenda, which is all that site is trying to do, albeit in a juvenile manner. Arzel (talk) 05:42, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course it's a movement, to promote a definition of santorum. Which they notably did by making SpreadingSantorum.com the #1 search result for santorum. SpreadingSantorum.com is the spearhead of that campaign. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 05:26, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- It is not an official organization or movement, simply a blog page of someone that hates Santorum. Whining WP:CRYBLP does not bode well for WP:AGF Arzel (talk) 03:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Link per Dominus Vobisdu, Robin Lionheart, and Theoldsparkle explanations above. Heiro 23:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Link. The subject of the article is the neologism campaign, and the site is official site for that campaign. Someone reading an article which prominently discusses a website is likely to have an interest in visiting that website as a further information seeking behavior. The purpose of external links is to facilitate these natural avenues of further inquiry for our readers. A WP:BLP contravention could override this, but I don't see any case for one. The spirit of BLP is to keep biographical content factually reliable and neutrally presented. It explicitly does not prevent us from covering, dispassionately but fully, notable criticism of an individual by others.--Trystan (talk) 03:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is no policy based reason to not have a link and plenty (see above) of reasons why to link to it as the most relevant external link for this subject. There are hundreds of offensive websites attacking numerous people linked to from Wikipedia. WP:ATTACKSITES was rejected as a policy. Wikipedia links to Encyclopedia Dramatica and Stormfront. This single page is fairly innocuous compared to those. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Include link It should be included for several reasons (a) It is the official website of the article. (b) We have an article on it and a link would be a useful tool to understand it. (c) Opposing the link would mean a slippery slope to removing links from several other articles, and such attempts are usually opposed. (For example, see Anders Breivik article and check the manifesto) (d) Nobody has properly demonstrated that the link violates BLP (e) Wikipedia is not WP:CENSORED. Pass a Method talk 02:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Include link. I'm an outside user who's come to this talk page after seeing it linked on WP:AN. While I respect the opposer's BLP concerns, I fail to see how including the link violates BLP any more than the article itself does. The article is also transparently incomplete without it. Personally, I think the campaign is pretty stupid, and it's a bit embarassing for Wikipedia that we have an article on it at all, but since we do (and it's apparently not going anywhere), there's no reason to exclude the link. Robofish (talk) 16:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Include link - We should not let our personal political objections to a site impact the decision-making process as to whether a link should be included. For example, the fascist Stormfront (website) includes a link to........... the Stormfront website. Certainly the site mentioned here is the locus of the campaign about which this article is written. Whether you support the campaign, whether you're bitterly opposed to the campaign, or wether you're in the middle somewhere supporting some aspects but not all, shouldn't matter. This is fundamentally an aspect of a political movement dealing with a public figure (a candidate for President of the United States), not an "attack site" about a private individual. Carrite (talk) 18:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- Include per Robofish, who said pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Sven Manguard Wha? 20:19, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Include The link is discussed within the context of the article and it is the nearest thing the article has to an official website. ThemFromSpace 20:53, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Include, there's no logical way around it, its the source of the extremely notable "controversy" which supports the existence of this article. Personally, by way of disclosure, I must admit that I also find Santorum's views on gays to be so reprehensible that I cannot live with myself or look my children in the eye and tell them I believed in America if I did not speak out against him. So, I ask myself, would I support a link to the World Net Daily's birther-central page (wherever it might be) on Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, and I have to concede - yes, on the same grounds.--Milowent • hasspoken 21:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Include, we normally link the website if it is primary/relevant to the article. There is no BLP vio to do so. Also per Carrite and Schmucky. R. Baley (talk) 00:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
Do not include the link
- Oppose link as violative of non-contravenable Wikipedia policies including WP:BLP and not using the straw arguments placed above. And I fail to see how a site whose sole purpose is to attach a disagreeable "definition" with the name of a living person qualifies as an "official site." Collect (talk) 19:38, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- And yet no one has described how the link is in any way a violation of BLP: it's the consensus that this article itself is not a violation of BLP. Why then would the link be a violation? Be——Critical 20:15, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose Link as a violation of WP:BLP and WP:EL #11. BLP applies everywhere. I am not sure where Zen comes off claiming that it does not since this is not a BLP. WP:EL is equally apt since the site is a blog, and this article is not about the blog site, it is about the general campaign. On a side note I am noticing a number of "new" commentors here. Arzel (talk) 21:10, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since the EL11 you cite is prefaced by Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject (emphasis in original), it does not apply. I "come off" trying to assume good faith, that is, assume that you have some reason for claiming this is a BLP violation. Since you've refused thus far to state a principle of the BLP policy which a link would violate, I'm forced to try to interpret which parts of the policy you might be trying to argue from. Either describe, in detail, how it is a violation, or stop using BLP as a club to get your way. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have stated the rational SEVERAL times above, quit whining and read the previous discussion. Arzel (talk) 01:03, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No official link exists for many articles. "Fansites", including everything from websites run by fans of a musician to a charitable organization supporting patients with a disease, even if they are endorsed or authorized by the subject, are not considered official websites because the subject of the article is unable to control the information being presented. Since Santorum is the subject and has no control of the information being passed, the link is not an official link. Arzel (talk) 03:10, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's sort of like saying The Social Network could have no official link, because Mark Zuckerberg has no control of the information being passed. Mark Zuckerberg is not really our article's subject. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 05:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- The site is not a blog to which that rule is specified. Furthermore there is probably little contention to the official movie website since the goal of the website doesn't appear to be to try and trash Mark Zuckerberg. They are simply not in the same plane of existence. Arzel (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, take the official link for The Case Against Barack Obama. Among other articles there critical of Barack Obama, you can read screeds by professional trasher Ann Coulter. (Frex, "No sentient human is required to take Obama's profession of Christianity any more seriously than if it were coming from a 1980s blow-dried, money-grubbing televangelist with a mistress on the side. All liberals are atheists. Only the ones who have to stand for election even bother pretending to believe in God.") So, does that book not have an official link? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 06:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that link from Human Events should not belong on that article either. You should go remove it. Arzel (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's unofficial by your WP:ELOFFICIAL interpretation, not mine. So you should remove it, not me. It'd show your impartiality. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 17:24, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, that link from Human Events should not belong on that article either. You should go remove it. Arzel (talk) 15:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, take the official link for The Case Against Barack Obama. Among other articles there critical of Barack Obama, you can read screeds by professional trasher Ann Coulter. (Frex, "No sentient human is required to take Obama's profession of Christianity any more seriously than if it were coming from a 1980s blow-dried, money-grubbing televangelist with a mistress on the side. All liberals are atheists. Only the ones who have to stand for election even bother pretending to believe in God.") So, does that book not have an official link? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 06:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- The site is not a blog to which that rule is specified. Furthermore there is probably little contention to the official movie website since the goal of the website doesn't appear to be to try and trash Mark Zuckerberg. They are simply not in the same plane of existence. Arzel (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's sort of like saying The Social Network could have no official link, because Mark Zuckerberg has no control of the information being passed. Mark Zuckerberg is not really our article's subject. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 05:47, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since the EL11 you cite is prefaced by Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject (emphasis in original), it does not apply. I "come off" trying to assume good faith, that is, assume that you have some reason for claiming this is a BLP violation. Since you've refused thus far to state a principle of the BLP policy which a link would violate, I'm forced to try to interpret which parts of the policy you might be trying to argue from. Either describe, in detail, how it is a violation, or stop using BLP as a club to get your way. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:47, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose Link - Per general observation that mitigating support or even perceived support for this most vulgar "political attack" with its inherent BLP considerations is not only well within the prerogative of WP "editorial judgement" but must surely be suggested by even the most minimal sense of forbearance under the principles espoused by WP:BLP. Is there a WP:RIGHTTHINGTODO that might be cited?JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Under the "editorial judgment" rationale, if you'd like to create a policy that would remove the direct external link to Stormfront, I wouldn't be opposed. But if we're operating under site-wide principles, failure to link in this case smacks of IDONTLIKEIT. I'm not accusing you of acting that way by any means (on the contrary, your edit history on the article and its talk page indicates great equanimity), but I see most arguments against the link eventually boiling down to that essence. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Citing, essentially, WP:IAR as a way of getting rid of the link isn't a good idea. The link is a natural and useful addition to the article, and in no way promotes the content of the site. Be——Critical 23:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Under the "editorial judgment" rationale, if you'd like to create a policy that would remove the direct external link to Stormfront, I wouldn't be opposed. But if we're operating under site-wide principles, failure to link in this case smacks of IDONTLIKEIT. I'm not accusing you of acting that way by any means (on the contrary, your edit history on the article and its talk page indicates great equanimity), but I see most arguments against the link eventually boiling down to that essence. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose link Clear violation of WP:BLP & WP:ELNO. NYyankees51 (talk) 01:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, not a click-through to generate pocket change for Dan Savage. The website itself is largely irrelevant to the overall anti-Santorum campaign anyways; the main thrust of the article is the campaign to affect Google searches. Tarc (talk) 03:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Which is centered around that site. The site is in the article lead, one of the most notable aspects of the article and campaign. It is, along with the definition, one of the most central factors here. And what pocket change? The site doesn't seem to have adds. What in the world are you talking about? Be——Critical 03:16, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- The site costs pocket change to run, but without ad revenue it's a net negative for Savage. More traffic just means more money to run it, actually. This argument doesn't make any sense at all. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- A straw poll is intended simply to gauge where opinions on a particular matter lie, not to rehash a threaded discussion for the nth time. If would be best if the two of you stop attacking every editor who has weighed in in opposition. Tarc (talk) 13:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No rehash. That was the 1st time anyone here's discussed whether SpreadingSantorum.com generates revenue. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would be interested to know if that is a criteria used to determine inclusion. Is there a precedent on this? Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No rehash. That was the 1st time anyone here's discussed whether SpreadingSantorum.com generates revenue. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:39, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- A straw poll is intended simply to gauge where opinions on a particular matter lie, not to rehash a threaded discussion for the nth time. If would be best if the two of you stop attacking every editor who has weighed in in opposition. Tarc (talk) 13:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose link - strongly oppose this link being promoted via wikipedia and all its mirrors - it is an attack site that hosts demeaning and attacking content about a living person that is the subject of one of our articles - that is its purpose , pure and simple - go into it and read some of the posts and comments there, its a disgusting attack site - Its disgusting that supporters of savage and his attack are unable to let go of their personal desire to add to the attack and are voting to add this, and its a poor reflection of wiki policy and guidelines that a link such as this is not automatically excluded and that this discussion is even necessary. This should not be closed on a head count but on a reflection of policy - with consideration to BLP in especial regard to what this link actually is and what its specific purpose is. The closer should also be one of our more experienced administrative closers. I imagine the inclusion or exclusion of this will set a new precedent, as I don't think on Wikipedia there are any other links to external bloggers sites that are specifically created to attack and demean a single living person. IMO this attack site should be blacklisted on wikipedia. Youreallycan 11:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC) - (this post created a lot of discussion moved to its own section below)
extended discussion
Responses and discussion of User:Youreallycan's oppose comment.
- Wikipedia links to a lot worse. Sorry to upset your delicate sensibilities but that is the way the world is and Wikipedia reflects it. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- And WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a non-reason for much at all. Collect (talk) 15:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not correct. It is relevant to point out that Wikipedia practice is to cover material however offensive to some, and that external links to official sites are no exception. Otherstuff regards using examples of bad content one place to justify bad content in another, which isn't the case here unless one is proposing that all these other subjects should be censored too because they are disagreeable, which appears to be SchmuckyTheCat's argument. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:58, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is is normal then as the supporters of adding the external suggest, that we link to blogger sites created for the purpose of, and only carrying content designed to attack and demean a single living person that is the subject of one of our biographical articles? Youreallycan 17:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- People here don't seem to get that this is not a biography: it's an article about a campaign. That's why we renamed it a while back, instead of deleting it. As such, the central tool of the campaign is extremely notable, and we should link to it. Be——Critical 17:41, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BLP applies to this article one hundred percent. We are not obliged to link to such attack locations, especially when the have been created to attack and demean a single living person, and we are not obliged to assist the attack by linking to it. Youreallycan 17:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No one has explained how the attack is helped by the link... but we have explained how the article is helped. BLP applies to all statements about living people, but we do report on very nasty things. Our report on the Campaign for "santorum" neologism is deeply involved with the site, and we should link to it in a complete article, as we would normally in an article not so politically charged. It's really as simple as that, and linking in no way whatsoever does any harm to Santorum. Be——Critical 18:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- - lets be honest here - a link from en Wikipedia and all its mirrors will drive up traffic to the attack site and increases the attack on R Santorum - the site is full of demeaning attack content all specifically created to attack that single living person, the more people that read it, the greater the level of the attack. The simple compromise position is plenty - just add the link for readers to see and search for if they want to, as we have been doing for quite some time.(see - http://www.spreadingsantorum.com) Its not like the link is hard to find, its the first site that comes up if you search for the senators name - but we should not be assisting the increase of traffic to the blogger attack site. Youreallycan 18:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why should we be in the business of discouraging people from something we write about because we disapprove of it? By that logic we ought to remove the link to Santorum's campaign site as well because that serves to increase his web traffic. We shouldn't be assisting him either, as many Wikipedians find his comments and positions offensive. The question of disparaging one living person versus disparaging several percent of the population is a red herring, if we weighed that one the latter causes far greater harm. Again, we're not in the position of playing favorites. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is not the same, and it is absurd to try to make the claim. Arzel (talk) 18:52, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- R Santorum's website is not a blogger site created to attack and demean a single living person. Within wiki guidelines there is absolutely no comparison between the two. Youreallycan 18:53, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Far more likely, the people who view the site will despise Savage. This is again why we should not be considering censorship of Wikipedia: we don't know the consequences. Be——Critical 18:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- We are not blind - any Neutral can go there and see the attacking and demeaning content - not censored is not an excuse to link to such externals. Youreallycan 18:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- First of all, don't be so fast to assume that everyone despises or even disagrees with Savage. The campaign works because Savage has supporters, as many people are far more offended by Santorum's substantive civil rights issue than Savage's hostile reaction to it. We don't need an "excuse" to cover a notable subject like that, we simply do. We absolutely can make comparisons between one form of offense and another, that's how to understand censorship and how it's explained all the way from classrooms to the Supreme Court. When you get in the business of forbidding content because it's offensive to you, you have no principled reason to forbid one kind of content rather than another. The "single living person" thing, again, is not a relevant distinction. That's a BLP argument and BLP is a narrow exception to our rule that we cover every topic under the sun. We could make other impertinent distinctions about it being a blog, the purpose being comeuppance and antagonism, it being in the field of politics, or the topic being sex-related, but none of those matter. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- We are not blind - any Neutral can go there and see the attacking and demeaning content - not censored is not an excuse to link to such externals. Youreallycan 18:59, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Far more likely, the people who view the site will despise Savage. This is again why we should not be considering censorship of Wikipedia: we don't know the consequences. Be——Critical 18:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why should we be in the business of discouraging people from something we write about because we disapprove of it? By that logic we ought to remove the link to Santorum's campaign site as well because that serves to increase his web traffic. We shouldn't be assisting him either, as many Wikipedians find his comments and positions offensive. The question of disparaging one living person versus disparaging several percent of the population is a red herring, if we weighed that one the latter causes far greater harm. Again, we're not in the position of playing favorites. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- - lets be honest here - a link from en Wikipedia and all its mirrors will drive up traffic to the attack site and increases the attack on R Santorum - the site is full of demeaning attack content all specifically created to attack that single living person, the more people that read it, the greater the level of the attack. The simple compromise position is plenty - just add the link for readers to see and search for if they want to, as we have been doing for quite some time.(see - http://www.spreadingsantorum.com) Its not like the link is hard to find, its the first site that comes up if you search for the senators name - but we should not be assisting the increase of traffic to the blogger attack site. Youreallycan 18:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- No one has explained how the attack is helped by the link... but we have explained how the article is helped. BLP applies to all statements about living people, but we do report on very nasty things. Our report on the Campaign for "santorum" neologism is deeply involved with the site, and we should link to it in a complete article, as we would normally in an article not so politically charged. It's really as simple as that, and linking in no way whatsoever does any harm to Santorum. Be——Critical 18:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BLP applies to this article one hundred percent. We are not obliged to link to such attack locations, especially when the have been created to attack and demean a single living person, and we are not obliged to assist the attack by linking to it. Youreallycan 17:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- People here don't seem to get that this is not a biography: it's an article about a campaign. That's why we renamed it a while back, instead of deleting it. As such, the central tool of the campaign is extremely notable, and we should link to it. Be——Critical 17:41, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is is normal then as the supporters of adding the external suggest, that we link to blogger sites created for the purpose of, and only carrying content designed to attack and demean a single living person that is the subject of one of our biographical articles? Youreallycan 17:15, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not correct. It is relevant to point out that Wikipedia practice is to cover material however offensive to some, and that external links to official sites are no exception. Otherstuff regards using examples of bad content one place to justify bad content in another, which isn't the case here unless one is proposing that all these other subjects should be censored too because they are disagreeable, which appears to be SchmuckyTheCat's argument. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:58, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- And WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is a non-reason for much at all. Collect (talk) 15:48, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia links to a lot worse. Sorry to upset your delicate sensibilities but that is the way the world is and Wikipedia reflects it. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Many of your comments seem focused on not censored and opinions of the site being opinions - clearly not censored is lately getting close to historic, at least its no longer an excuse to add whatever attack content you can find on the www. As for opinions , any uninvolved neutral would read the site would see its all about attacking R Santorum, much of which is just simple demeaning and attacking content - this man is a (add attack comment here) - not content we have to link to or we are not providing educational information ot our readers. WP:BLP is a good reason not to directly link to a blogger site that has been created specifically and hosts content that specifically attacks and demeans a single living person - your idea that because R Santorum is opposed to same sex marriage that we shouldn't link to his webpage is unsupported completely in wikipedia policy and guidelines. We cover such attacks but we are not obliged to link to them thereby increasing traffic to them and assisting the attack - this is quite a different issue and a specific one as its far from usual. Youreallycan 19:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly. There is no support in Wikipedia policy or guidelines for refusing to link to Santorum's site or Savage's. Once we are out of BLP territory, no amount of offense taken at the site content matters, nor does the reason or mode of offense. The argument that we shouldn't let people see something because in so doing they are supporting it is a censorship argument. NOTCENSORED is a fundamental part of WP:NOT policy, a flag often waved where it doesn't belong, but here squarely on point. Santorum disparaged gay rights, then Savage attacked Santorum. That's a fact, they both did it. We cover things that happened, and those things happened. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:13, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You are confusing the two. I don't agree with Santorum, but he didn't disparage anyone. He has an opinion about gay rights based off biblical views. Savage doesn't like his opinion so he attacked him. It is one thing to disagree with someone's opinion or belief, it is an entirely different thing to attack a person for having that opinion or belief. Arzel (talk) 20:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Savage didn't attack Santorum for his religious beliefs, he attacked Santorum for advocating anti-gay laws based on those beliefs and for comparing gay sex to bestiality. Plenty of people are far more offended and troubled by Santorum's conduct than Savage's. They are indeed two different things, but not in a relevant way that makes it okay to give people access to one and not the other. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- That is a distinction without a difference, the point is that Savage did not create the site to debate the position of Santorum, rather he simply hates Santorum, and thus attacks him in a juvenile manner. If you seriously believe that more people are offended by Santorum's belief than by Savage's behaviour in response, then you really need to get outside of your sheltered existance. Arzel (talk) 02:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Ignoring the ridiculous ad hominem, that's a clearly inaccurate characterization of the site. Savage didn't wake up one day and decide to besmirch a random citizen. He's an activist for gay causes fighting what he (and many others, obviously) see as bigotry. Nobody really knows what anyone is thinking but perhaps this interview will be helpful elucidating Savage's own account of why he did it.[1] - Wikidemon (talk) 06:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- That is a distinction without a difference, the point is that Savage did not create the site to debate the position of Santorum, rather he simply hates Santorum, and thus attacks him in a juvenile manner. If you seriously believe that more people are offended by Santorum's belief than by Savage's behaviour in response, then you really need to get outside of your sheltered existance. Arzel (talk) 02:53, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Savage didn't attack Santorum for his religious beliefs, he attacked Santorum for advocating anti-gay laws based on those beliefs and for comparing gay sex to bestiality. Plenty of people are far more offended and troubled by Santorum's conduct than Savage's. They are indeed two different things, but not in a relevant way that makes it okay to give people access to one and not the other. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You are confusing the two. I don't agree with Santorum, but he didn't disparage anyone. He has an opinion about gay rights based off biblical views. Savage doesn't like his opinion so he attacked him. It is one thing to disagree with someone's opinion or belief, it is an entirely different thing to attack a person for having that opinion or belief. Arzel (talk) 20:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your position of comparing D Savages deliberate attack against a single living person and R Santorum's political position is incomparable. Notcensored is dated and recently extremely weakened - notcensored is not an excuse to add an attack site created with the single purpose and hosting content singularly designed to demean and attack a single living person. There is support in en wikipedia policy and guidelines not to link to such attack sites - clearly BLP encourages us not to and WP:EL is begging for the update - as users finding exceptions see that as a reason to add , but clearly that not the case. Youreallycan 20:19, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Notcensored has not been weakened, it never was a haven for exempting gratuitous scatology from editorial discretion. Again, no "excuse" is necessary to provide external links to article subjects, we cover them all without prejudice. On the contrary, refusing to point readers to see material for themselves that we write about in an article would be a new rule. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Notcensored has not been weakened (just as an aside), and again, the spreadingsantorum.com site is basic and intrinsic to the subject. Not linking to it is to censor ourselves not because of any BLP concern, but because we don't like the content. If we have this article at all, then we should do it right, without flinching from the content, and that includes having any link which we would otherwise include were this not offensive or politically charged. People wanting to exclude the link would be better off trying to get rid of the article. This is without question the official site of the campaign for the santorum neologism, which overrides other concerns. And all BLP concerns should be directed at the article, not the link. Be——Critical 21:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not censored is not an excuse to add this attacking and demeaning blogger external that was created for those specific purposes - EL official is not an excuse to include it either. Any neutral would return the position that the blogger site is a simple personal attack against a living person. You claim its normal and usual to link to such blogger sites created for attacking and demeaning purposes but its not is it. BLP and simple cautious - do no harm editorial control reject completely the addition of this external. Your claims that Santorum attacked a group of people so its ok to add that groups attack of him blogger site is just a partisan position that cares less about guidelines and policy. Youreallycan 21:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not using WP:NOTCENSORED. It's not appropriate here, because no one is making an argument to which it applies. Rather, we're arguing by other means. And I say it's normal and usual to link to any site which is central to the subject of any article, no matter the content. And you're getting me mixed up with someone else I think. Be——Critical 22:13, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am not mixing you up with anyone - you are User:Becritical - If as you assert, it is normal to link to blogger sites created for the sole purpose of attacking and demeaning a single living person then please link me to some of them. Youreallycan 23:05, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- LOL, nobody is acting as if this is a normal circumstance. But two can play at that game: show me an article where the central focus of the article is a campaign or other set of circumstances centered on a single website, where we do not link to that website. Be——Critical 23:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its not an Internet game becritical - its content about a living person - please don't start all that lol crap. You want to focus on campaign and website, but this is all about a single living person, and that is where policy and my focus is. Youreallycan 23:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the campaign and the individuals and this article are all focused on a single website, which is an attack site on a single living person (they all swirl around this site like a whirlpool around a drain, though there are different aspects). The circumstances focused on that site are what we are writing about, and not giving the link is just WP censoring itself. Don't tell me how to express myself. And answer the question, because it's valid: show me an article where the central focus of the article is a campaign or other set of circumstances centered on a single website, where we do not link to that website. Be——Critical 00:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't give a damn about you and how you express yourself - but here WP:BLP is policy and is the focus. Please attempt to override your POV and stay neutral in regard to this BLP content. Have you got a COI in your edit history that is opposing to the position of this living person? If you have please declare it, thanks - Youreallycan 00:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- You can keep saying this is a BLP issue, but it's not. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- I don't give a damn about you and how you express yourself - but here WP:BLP is policy and is the focus. Please attempt to override your POV and stay neutral in regard to this BLP content. Have you got a COI in your edit history that is opposing to the position of this living person? If you have please declare it, thanks - Youreallycan 00:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the campaign and the individuals and this article are all focused on a single website, which is an attack site on a single living person (they all swirl around this site like a whirlpool around a drain, though there are different aspects). The circumstances focused on that site are what we are writing about, and not giving the link is just WP censoring itself. Don't tell me how to express myself. And answer the question, because it's valid: show me an article where the central focus of the article is a campaign or other set of circumstances centered on a single website, where we do not link to that website. Be——Critical 00:15, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its not an Internet game becritical - its content about a living person - please don't start all that lol crap. You want to focus on campaign and website, but this is all about a single living person, and that is where policy and my focus is. Youreallycan 23:35, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- A comparable example where we include an WP:ELOFFICIAL that is a self-published blog dedicated to attacking an individual is on Orly Taitz, where we include a link to her official site, which is a self-published blog dedicated to perpetuating Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. As a side note, an WP:ELOFFICIAL is by definition controlled by the article's subject, so it's always going to be self-published in that sense.--Trystan (talk) 02:26, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hey, thank you, I don't have the general knowledge to come up with that (: Be——Critical 02:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- LOL, nobody is acting as if this is a normal circumstance. But two can play at that game: show me an article where the central focus of the article is a campaign or other set of circumstances centered on a single website, where we do not link to that website. Be——Critical 23:21, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am not mixing you up with anyone - you are User:Becritical - If as you assert, it is normal to link to blogger sites created for the sole purpose of attacking and demeaning a single living person then please link me to some of them. Youreallycan 23:05, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm not using WP:NOTCENSORED. It's not appropriate here, because no one is making an argument to which it applies. Rather, we're arguing by other means. And I say it's normal and usual to link to any site which is central to the subject of any article, no matter the content. And you're getting me mixed up with someone else I think. Be——Critical 22:13, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not censored is not an excuse to add this attacking and demeaning blogger external that was created for those specific purposes - EL official is not an excuse to include it either. Any neutral would return the position that the blogger site is a simple personal attack against a living person. You claim its normal and usual to link to such blogger sites created for attacking and demeaning purposes but its not is it. BLP and simple cautious - do no harm editorial control reject completely the addition of this external. Your claims that Santorum attacked a group of people so its ok to add that groups attack of him blogger site is just a partisan position that cares less about guidelines and policy. Youreallycan 21:30, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Notcensored has not been weakened (just as an aside), and again, the spreadingsantorum.com site is basic and intrinsic to the subject. Not linking to it is to censor ourselves not because of any BLP concern, but because we don't like the content. If we have this article at all, then we should do it right, without flinching from the content, and that includes having any link which we would otherwise include were this not offensive or politically charged. People wanting to exclude the link would be better off trying to get rid of the article. This is without question the official site of the campaign for the santorum neologism, which overrides other concerns. And all BLP concerns should be directed at the article, not the link. Be——Critical 21:22, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Notcensored has not been weakened, it never was a haven for exempting gratuitous scatology from editorial discretion. Again, no "excuse" is necessary to provide external links to article subjects, we cover them all without prejudice. On the contrary, refusing to point readers to see material for themselves that we write about in an article would be a new rule. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:04, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Incipient edit war
May I suggest that people stop reverting the addition or deletion of the proposed external link until such time as we've settled the question (or at least until most editors grow tired and walk away)? I'd like to put the damn thing in but when the top five edits all start with Undo... that's starting to get worrisome. Which often quickly escalates to "disruptive." ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 22:22, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed, and tho it takes two to edit war the status quo is that there is no link. Please respect that unless the community decides to the contrary, and remember there is no rush here. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
- Were there a "levelheadedness" barnstar to be bestowed, I'd be sending it your way. Instant gratification to satisfy a plausible POV-push du jour is hardly the editorial demeanor that reflects well on this project, to say nothing of the composition of this highly contentious subject. RfC process this discussion and be done with it, one way or the other. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed, especially keeping in mind that not all admins might be so levelheaded and might regret not having seen an edit-war in progress. Please all, let the discussion run, and perhaps in time ask elsewhere for a neutral editor to come in and sort out the pros and cons to arrive at a decision on the consensus. Franamax (talk) 01:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- On the brighter side, if all that people can find to argue about is the inclusion/non-inclusion of the link, it's a good indication that the rest of the article is now pretty neutral and balanced. -- The Anome (talk) 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- ...it's a good indication that the rest of the article is now pretty neutral and balanced.
- Cough. It may also be a good indication that collective POV persistence can easily overwhelm months of painstaking consensus discussion in a New York minute. The recent assault on this article lead has transformed it into what is, IMHO, a POV travesty. My guess is that the definition itself will soon be headed to higher ground...all in the name of NPOV composition...of course. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I just reread the article from start to finish. It's neutral and entirely devoid of editorializing, although a little heavy on coverage of negative reactions and disapproval of Savage's campaign. It's also rather dry, as if we're trying hard to be dignified about an undignified subject. That makes the tone fuddy, which itself is a POV. De-linking the site would tend to heighten the sense of sanctimony or overcautiousness, like saying a bad word in pig latin in front of the children. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's neutral and entirely devoid of editorializing...
- Double cough. "Santorum scandal"? I'll retire to bedlam. JakeInJoisey (talk) 17:55, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- I just reread the article from start to finish. It's neutral and entirely devoid of editorializing, although a little heavy on coverage of negative reactions and disapproval of Savage's campaign. It's also rather dry, as if we're trying hard to be dignified about an undignified subject. That makes the tone fuddy, which itself is a POV. De-linking the site would tend to heighten the sense of sanctimony or overcautiousness, like saying a bad word in pig latin in front of the children. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- On the brighter side, if all that people can find to argue about is the inclusion/non-inclusion of the link, it's a good indication that the rest of the article is now pretty neutral and balanced. -- The Anome (talk) 16:00, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Agreed, especially keeping in mind that not all admins might be so levelheaded and might regret not having seen an edit-war in progress. Please all, let the discussion run, and perhaps in time ask elsewhere for a neutral editor to come in and sort out the pros and cons to arrive at a decision on the consensus. Franamax (talk) 01:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Were there a "levelheadedness" barnstar to be bestowed, I'd be sending it your way. Instant gratification to satisfy a plausible POV-push du jour is hardly the editorial demeanor that reflects well on this project, to say nothing of the composition of this highly contentious subject. RfC process this discussion and be done with it, one way or the other. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
BLP policy & its bearing on this article's contents
Preemptive apologies for length.
It has been extensively alleged that this article should not contain x (where x = an external link, the property of existing, etc.) because inclusion of x would violate Wikipedia's Biographies of Living Persons policy. In the interest of resolving these disputes, I've taken the liberty of creating a chart of BLP policies, with shortcuts, and a short statement on the bearing of each policy plank on the article or its (prospective) contents. Many of these policies are also prudent guidelines (or resolvable to other policies) regarding all articles, not just biographies. I will therefore treat many of them as applicable here even though this is not a biographical article, but one about a (meme?) with culture-wide participation.
I strongly urge editors concerned about BLP to try to resolve those concerns here, point-by-point, so that there can no longer be any question of whether this or that violates or would violate the BLP policy. I'm sure we're all, on every possible side, sick and tired of making and hearing the same arguments again and again. So let's resolve it, in full detail. Thank you. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- - BLP states - and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. - We are all well aware that adding external links to en Wikipedia and its many hundreds of mirrors drives up traffic to such externals. Promoting and directing readers to a blogger attack site, created for the purpose of attack, that includes demeaning content, clearly is additionally harmful. Youreallycan 23:25, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- You seem to be making two points, and I want to leave the BLP one aside. The other point is about a Wikipedia policy that editors should anticipate what third parties will do with Wikipedia content on their own sites, and adapt Wikipedia articles to account for the effects of what unnamed third parties will do. I have never heard of any such thing. Is this what you are suggesting? If not, can you clarify what you mean? Blue Rasberry (talk) 00:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is a rare case - an individual case where editorial control is required - there is not clear cut wiki guideline for such rare cases. We don't need to anticipate, we know, that the linking to an external site from en wikipedia and all its mirror sites, drives up traffic to that site. So, if we add this attack external to the article it will increase traffic to that online attack. We can, and have been, avoiding that simple fact for quite some time with the old consensus - nothing presented here has overridden that long term previous stable position that was driven by WP:DONOHARM Youreallycan 00:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and should never be written in such a way as to subject its own content to the whims of the outside world. We are a pure conduit for neutral information, and we do not censor our articles for any reason whatsoever. That goes for BLPs just as much as for the rest of Wikipedia. A full and neutral treatment includes discussion of the website, and normal practice includes any official site related to our article's subject. Be——Critical 02:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is a rare case - an individual case where editorial control is required - there is not clear cut wiki guideline for such rare cases. We don't need to anticipate, we know, that the linking to an external site from en wikipedia and all its mirror sites, drives up traffic to that site. So, if we add this attack external to the article it will increase traffic to that online attack. We can, and have been, avoiding that simple fact for quite some time with the old consensus - nothing presented here has overridden that long term previous stable position that was driven by WP:DONOHARM Youreallycan 00:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- As WP:HARM notes, the principle of doing no harm was explicitly rejected, because it is incompatible with our obligation to maintain a neutral point of view when writing about all subjects, including living people. Specifically, avoiding harm is not a justification to remove relevant negative information about a living person.--Trystan (talk) 02:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- You're misreading that: "avoiding harm remains an important consideration within our living persons policy, doing no harm has been found to be incompatible with our obligation to maintain a neutral point of view when writing about all subjects, including living people." Can this harm be avoided without really reducing the WP:DUE content? Do we give the reader the name of the website? That's enough. Providing a link to the site doesn't add a jot to the readers' understanding, it just participates in the prank; something we can't do. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:33, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- The contention that, by including the link, WP "participates in the prank" is absurd. it is also not our role to protect Santorum from being harmed by Savage's campaign. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BLP applies equally to Santorum and Nelson Mandela. It cannot be otherwise. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:ADVOCACY Savage is free to say whatever he wants about Santorum, but neither he nor you are free to use WP to futher his advocacy. Arzel (talk) 14:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- By that reasoning, Wikipedia would have no external links. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- No harmful links. You have a problem with that? Tell me one thing that a hyperlink will add to the readers' understanding. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:14, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- By that reasoning, Wikipedia would have no external links. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- The contention that, by including the link, WP "participates in the prank" is absurd. it is also not our role to protect Santorum from being harmed by Savage's campaign. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- You're misreading that: "avoiding harm remains an important consideration within our living persons policy, doing no harm has been found to be incompatible with our obligation to maintain a neutral point of view when writing about all subjects, including living people." Can this harm be avoided without really reducing the WP:DUE content? Do we give the reader the name of the website? That's enough. Providing a link to the site doesn't add a jot to the readers' understanding, it just participates in the prank; something we can't do. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:33, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- As WP:HARM notes, the principle of doing no harm was explicitly rejected, because it is incompatible with our obligation to maintain a neutral point of view when writing about all subjects, including living people. Specifically, avoiding harm is not a justification to remove relevant negative information about a living person.--Trystan (talk) 02:43, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- What does it add to the reader's understanding? It is a bit of human nature that people want to see for themselves what this is about. That's why we don't censor obviously relevant links. Readers want them; they expect them; they know they exist. We dilute our credibility by stating like some ivory towered elitist that we know better what links they should click.
- The other point about harmful is absurdly errant. First, define harmful. I find it hardly likely that a major public figure with a monthly advertising budget of multi-millions of dollars such as Rick Santorum experiences any harm from a URL on a backwater page of Wikipedia. Politics are a rough and tumble field. Campaigns play dirty, very dirty. Even Huntsman had to deal with reprehensible and underhanded rumor mongering about his "black baby" in South Carolina. The presence of a URL on Wikipedia is not "harmful" to major political candidates.
- Second, harmful is both a POV and OR. Where do we start defining which harmful links we are going to remove? Which objective criteria do we use? This is original research based not on actual content, but on abstract meta concepts. We aren't going there. Why are we removing harmful links but not advocate links? You want to whitewash this project of criticism but allow advocacy? That is a massive philosophical breach of our core pillar, WP:NPOV.
- There may be two dozen people on this talk page. In the past, hundreds of editors have chimed in about attack sites, insult sites, shock sites, racist sites and any other kind of offensive material. Self-censorship, harm, and nebulous BLP rationales have always been dismissed when external links are clearly relevant to the subject matter. It is absurd to think six people on this talk page know policy better than the hundreds that have commented in the past. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- You don't appear to have answered my question. The actual answer is, the hyperlink adds nothing to the readers' understanding, it just saves the reader the trouble of typing the url.
- You argue that linking our page to Savage's attack site isn't harmful to Santorum. If it wasn't harmful, Savage wouldn't be maintaining it, and Santorum wouldn't want it off Google's first page.
- You argue that assessing harm is POV and OR. I suppose you mean it involves discernment, judgement and common sense.
- You ask, which harmful links are we going to remove? Well, links to blatant attack sites is one class. Let's be clear. We're hiding nothing from the reader. We're saying, here's the website. That's our responsibility to the reader fulfilled. We don't hyperlink it. That would be failing in our responsibility to a living subject, and joining in the attack.
- Regarding, "Self-censorship, harm, and nebulous BLP rationales have always been dismissed when external links are clearly relevant to the subject matter," harm is real and obvious and something we take very seriously, it's mandatory to consider it in BLP editorial decision-making. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Table of BLP policy sections
Specific BLP policies in relation to article | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
POLICY | SUMMARY | BEARING ON CURRENT ARTICLE | ||
Tone | "BLPs should be written responsibly, cautiously, and in a dispassionate tone..." | Article shouldn't take glee in campaign nor denigrate it, but simply report on it. | ||
Criticism and praise | ...must be well sourced and comply with WP:UNDUE. | Article should dispassionately report on campaign; to the extent this includes disparaging remarks about people, these must be presented neutrally and vetted to ensure they really are notable. | ||
Attack pages | WP articles should not consist of screeds or be dedicated to disparaging people. | Article should fully report on campaign without becoming part of it or part of the backlash against it. | ||
Challenged or likely to be challenged | WP articles must be sourced reliably. | Article shouldn't use bad sources or make unsourced claims. | ||
Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material | Badly or un-sourced material should be removed from WP articles in which it is found. | Article shouldn't use bad sources or make unsourced claims. | ||
Avoid gossip and feedback loops | WP articles shouldn't spread rumors, or use citations to anonymous sources or those that cite WP itself. | Article should not use citations to anonymous sources or discussions of this very article, as sources. | ||
Misuse of primary sources | WP articles should not contain original research or cite records un-vetted by media or other secondary sources. | Article should not use primary sources for information about Rick Santorum or Dan Savage, unless vetted by reliable secondary source. | ||
Avoid self-published sources | WP articles should not cite self-published sources as to information about a living person. | Article should not use spreadingsantorum.com (or other blogs) as information about Rick Santorum, source non-quote statements about campaign to campaign's own website, etc. | ||
Further reading and external links | Articles shouldn't link to self-published sites as if they contributed info or citations to article. | Question is whether link to spreadingsantorum.com would fall under WP:BLPSPS (as info self-published by Dan Savage or other campaigners about Rick Santorum, who is not the subject of this article) or WP:ELOFFICIAL (as the official website of the campaign for santorum neologism). | ||
Avoid victimization | Articles shouldn't pile on every bad thing that happened to a person, nor harp needlessly on a few. | Article should not be a litany of every single time someone participated in campaign; rather should summarize and give some examples. | ||
Public figures | "In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article — even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it..." | Article should not be deleted or pared down simply because Rick Santorum (or Dan Savage) do not like coverage, or do not like our coverage. Info that is well-sourced and relevant belongs. | ||
Privacy of personal information and using primary sources | Articles should not publish personal data about people. | If campaign ever outs Rick Santorum's date of birth, etc., we should only report the outing, not what the data are. | ||
People who are relatively unknown | Articles should stick to covering people who are actually notable. | Article should not report on every person who participates in campaign, only those who are also otherwise notable. | ||
Subjects notable only for one event | Articles should stick to covering people who are actually notable. | Article should not report on every person who participates in campaign, only those who are also otherwise notable. | ||
Crime perpetrators | Articles should not make suggestions, subtle or overt, that people are guilty or suspected of crimes unless and until facts (convictions, indictments, investigations, etc.) are actually reported in reliable sources. | Article should not insinuate that Rick Santorum or Dan Savage are guilty of crimes or other unsavory behavior. | ||
Privacy of names | "Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it..." | Article should not report on every person who participates in campaign, only those who are also otherwise notable. |
Policies end here. Below this point on the BLP page, other questions are discussed (maintenance, not applicable to deceased people, relationship between subject/article/Wikipedia, etc.). ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- This is such bloated nonsense its impossible to reply. Youreallycan 23:07, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Come on Youreallycan, don't get confrontational. It seems to me he put it in the simplest possible format, and it's very understandable, and it does require discussion. Be——Critical 23:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Zenswashbuckler, thank you for this straightforward, diligent and very helpful contribution. Writegeist (talk) 23:28, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Come on Youreallycan, don't get confrontational. It seems to me he put it in the simplest possible format, and it's very understandable, and it does require discussion. Be——Critical 23:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Application of specific BLP policies to this article
I suggest discussion of each policy (and how this article allegedly violates / would allegedly violate it) in its particular section. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Tone
Done, even overdone. It is abundantly clear to any reader that Wikipedia does not approve of the campaign, much less desire to participate in it. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Criticism and praise
Done. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Attack pages
Done. A well-sourced description of an attack does not equal an attack. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Challenged or likely to be challenged
Done. The threshold for inclusion of material in this article is very high due to its very contentiousness. Only the strong survive. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material
Done. See above. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Avoid gossip and feedback loops
Done. There was some concern about this page's placement in search engine results for santorum, but AFAIK this has been assuaged by the fact that we have a strongly neutral article that can't be confused with participatory involvement. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Misuse of primary sources
Done. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Avoid self-published sources
Done. No such sources are used anywhere; the only possible question is one of linking to the official site (see below). ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Further reading and external links
Question needs deciding. On the one hand, an external link to spreadingsantorum.com sends readers to a self-published source of allegations and commentary regarding Rick Santorum. On the other hand, it is the official site of the campaign (which is the actual subject of this article). It would be an obvious and clear-cut "no" if it were proposed to add the link to Rick Santorum. Instead it is proposed to add it to this article, where it would be extremely pertinent, and in keeping with WP:ELOFFICIAL.
My own view is that having an article about the campaign and then not linking to the single most important part of the campaign is itself a POV violation. "We'll tell you about this sordid mess, but we won't make it slightly easier for you to investigate it yourself, despite the fact that we do it for Stormfront, David Duke, and others." ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nice work (: Be——Critical 22:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
- Consensus here is against the "link" to a site dedicated to a frothy mixture of Savages words. Collect (talk) 12:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- That is a bold assertion considering it is the minority view. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- You're using a definition of "consensus" I don't think any of us are familiar with. The fact that we're still discussing this means there is no consensus as yet. Those arguing against the link have not convinced many others of their case. Non-inclusion is only justified by a non-neutral POV. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 14:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Consensus here is against the "link" to a site dedicated to a frothy mixture of Savages words. Collect (talk) 12:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Pray tell -- what exactly does that comment mean? What is it intended to imply? Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- It means you are being deliberately obtuse in your claim in order to avoid the obvious. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- Pray tell -- what exactly does that comment mean? What is it intended to imply? Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Avoid victimization
Done. Article scrupulously avoids making more hay than was already there. Well-documented facts are reported, nothing more. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Public figures
Done. Rick Santorum is a public figure, as to some extent is Dan Savage. Contentious information is exhaustively sourced. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Privacy of personal information and using primary sources
Done. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
People who are relatively unknown
Done. See "Public figures" above. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Subjects notable only for one event
Done. See "Public figures" above. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Crime perpetrators
Done. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
Privacy of names
Done. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:49, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
added details of "to rick" not proper IMO
I find no conceivable value to that editorial insertion, no consensus to permits such an insertion, and it again is a gratuitois insertion promoted by Savage, and not of any calue in any BLP-related article (which this has been found to be_. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's clearly pertinent to the topic of the article, and the consensus on this page is running against the BLP argument. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 12:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's not at all gratuitous, since it's clearly linked to, and a continuation of, the santorum campaign. (I find it clever how rick, though fairly tame by itself, makes "rick santorum" so much filthier.) And there's no consensus to permit this removal of relevant information. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 13:45, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's also not "trivial" or "inconsequential". It received significant coverage in independent sources and is an obvious continuation of Savage's campaign, and thus an integral element of the subject of this article. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason to delete relevant material. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Being reported doesn't make it consequential. Consequences make it consequential. When you've sourced some significant real impact, then it may be considered for inclusion. At the moment, it is too much like us just being a mirror for Savage's thought bubbles. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course it had consequences. It brought new attention to Savage's camapign. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Savage's campaign to make a derogatory eponym from Rick Santorum's name has been consequential. That Savage redefined both his first and last names is a detail that merits inclusion, even if rick never catches on like santorum has. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Get overyourself. Savage did nothing regarding Santorum's first name, other than to get a bunch of his followers in a tizzy. Arzel (talk) 14:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Can you please not use that kind of language here. It's not acceptable. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Get overyourself. Savage did nothing regarding Santorum's first name, other than to get a bunch of his followers in a tizzy. Arzel (talk) 14:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Savage's campaign to make a derogatory eponym from Rick Santorum's name has been consequential. That Savage redefined both his first and last names is a detail that merits inclusion, even if rick never catches on like santorum has. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course it had consequences. It brought new attention to Savage's camapign. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Being reported doesn't make it consequential. Consequences make it consequential. When you've sourced some significant real impact, then it may be considered for inclusion. At the moment, it is too much like us just being a mirror for Savage's thought bubbles. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:08, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- It has nothing to do with the subject of the small-s "santorum" campaign.
- Self-evident and decisive. Fully concur.
- We're not writing an article on Dan Savage's overall anti-Rick Santorum agenda.
- Perhaps we should be. How's Dan Savage's political attack on Rick Santorum grab you? JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Jake, that grabs me as a bad idea for a move. It may be "self-evident and decisive" to you that rick and santorum are completely unrelated, but I and others completely disagree. In fact I would say they are intimately related, stemming from the same source (Savage) and consisting of exactly the same thing (an attempt to redefine Rick Santorum's name as something disgusting and associated with gay sex). I don't know that rick actually warrants inclusion anywhere, since it doesn't appear to be catching on as santorum may be and isn't the subject of a sustained (campaign, meme, widespread-practice-of-linking-by-totally-unrelated-people, what have you) as santorum is. But what's notable here is not that Dan Savage has made a political attack against Rick Santorum (plenty of more notable people than Savage have done that); what is notable is the nature of the attack and its persistent success in spite of both presumed search engine neutrality, and moral opprobrium from many directions. I don't know if we want to have yet another move
wardiscussion. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 15:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)- It may be "self-evident and decisive" to you that rick and santorum are completely unrelated...
- That is not my position. Please don't overstate it. My position is that Savage's attempted escalation of his "political attack" is unrelated to the specific subject this article title suggests. Now, if you wish to broaden the scope of this article to encompass any related development in Savage's "political attack" against Santorum (current and, perhaps, future), be my guest...but at least have the ethical decency to appropriately title this article to reflect what it currently masques. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:33, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Jake, that grabs me as a bad idea for a move. It may be "self-evident and decisive" to you that rick and santorum are completely unrelated, but I and others completely disagree. In fact I would say they are intimately related, stemming from the same source (Savage) and consisting of exactly the same thing (an attempt to redefine Rick Santorum's name as something disgusting and associated with gay sex). I don't know that rick actually warrants inclusion anywhere, since it doesn't appear to be catching on as santorum may be and isn't the subject of a sustained (campaign, meme, widespread-practice-of-linking-by-totally-unrelated-people, what have you) as santorum is. But what's notable here is not that Dan Savage has made a political attack against Rick Santorum (plenty of more notable people than Savage have done that); what is notable is the nature of the attack and its persistent success in spite of both presumed search engine neutrality, and moral opprobrium from many directions. I don't know if we want to have yet another move
- It's also not "trivial" or "inconsequential". It received significant coverage in independent sources and is an obvious continuation of Savage's campaign, and thus an integral element of the subject of this article. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a reason to delete relevant material. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 14:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- WP:BRD would suggest that material boldly added to the article and then quickly reverted is not re-added until a discussion reaches a consensus to do so.
- As for whether this should be added, how much coverage did it receive in reliable secondary sources? That, rather than our personal opinions of its consequence, would show if it is warranted.--Trystan (talk) 14:40, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- This situation is the inverse. Would WP:BRD also suggest that existing material boldly deleted from the article, then quickly reverted, is not re-deleted until a discussion reaches a consensus to do so? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Mate, BRD just doesn't matter. It's an essay isn't it? WP:BLP is policy. You want to include that one person opined that we should all use another person's name as an obscene imperative. Nothing happened, except a smattering of press coverage. People say cruel and (in this case very) funny things about other people all the time. We're not Savage's mouthpiece.
- If something comes of it; if there are significant consequences, this is the article for it. But not yet. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- I included nothing about using Rick Santorum's name as a sentence. Perhaps you should argue with content I did include, rather than content I didn't. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- So, you added the "to rick" content. I didn't know. None of this is black and white, of course. It is inconsequential. But very clever. So it's tempting to include just as an example of Savage's satirical genius. But since there's been no real consequences for Santorum or his campaign, including it here looks to me scarily like helping Savage push the verb without decent encyclopedic justification. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Who, me? No, when I started editing this article two weeks ago, that “to rick” paragraph was already here. I appended a clause “meaning "to remove something with your tongue"”. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 12:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your addition turned "rick santorum" into a sentence. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- There was no addition. The content has been there for six months, and does not explicitly discuss the use of the two together as a sentence. The content (in the stable version of the article) is there not because it's clever but because it received significant coverage in major sources in connection with the overall campaign, in other words it's noteworthy and relevant. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Robin added "meaning 'to remove something with your tongue'" so, yes, there was an addition, a clause, and it gives the reader Savage's sentence. Well, you've got some reliable sources for it, that verifies it. It doesn't make it worthy of note though. "And then Savage said" without any significant consequences, isn't noteworthy, reporting it is just being Savage's mouthpiece. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 13:40, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- There was no addition. The content has been there for six months, and does not explicitly discuss the use of the two together as a sentence. The content (in the stable version of the article) is there not because it's clever but because it received significant coverage in major sources in connection with the overall campaign, in other words it's noteworthy and relevant. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:39, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your addition turned "rick santorum" into a sentence. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Who, me? No, when I started editing this article two weeks ago, that “to rick” paragraph was already here. I appended a clause “meaning "to remove something with your tongue"”. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 12:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- So, you added the "to rick" content. I didn't know. None of this is black and white, of course. It is inconsequential. But very clever. So it's tempting to include just as an example of Savage's satirical genius. But since there's been no real consequences for Santorum or his campaign, including it here looks to me scarily like helping Savage push the verb without decent encyclopedic justification. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I included nothing about using Rick Santorum's name as a sentence. Perhaps you should argue with content I did include, rather than content I didn't. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 06:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- My mistake; I misread the edit history and thought this material had just been added. BRD would favour its retention if the argument against inclusion is based on relevance, though as noted above a BLP concern would justify its removal. Though I don't see how this specific section, properly sourced to significant coverage, could violate BLP.--Trystan (talk) 19:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- This situation is the inverse. Would WP:BRD also suggest that existing material boldly deleted from the article, then quickly reverted, is not re-deleted until a discussion reaches a consensus to do so? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:47, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- This thread is absurd. The material is clearly relevant to the subject, covered by reliable sources (if the New York Magazine cite isn't enough, it's also covered by MSN and Fox News), and is in the article by consensus. In any other article, a later incident arising from the subject covered, involving the same participants, would be mentioned for context. The tenuous logic claiming lack of relevance to the subject, or a BLP issue, strain credulity. For one editor to bring this up is an innocent enough outlier opinion. But when the same cadre of editors who is opposing the external link and crying BLP rallies behind deleting a paragraph that has been in the article since last August[2] and is willing to incite a group edit war to remove it, this seems to be more a matter of escalation and forming sides than a serious attempt to collaborate on an article. Under the circumstances I think discussion has broken down. The article ought to be protected in whatever version it's in without prejudice to restoring a stable version later, and editors should just go home and take this up another day after they've cooled down and resolved not to edit war or operate without consensus. - Wikidemon (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm with JakeinJoisey here: the "rick" part (if it's sourced I haven't checked) is very relevant, but suggests a rename. I suggest Dan Savage campaign to redefine "Rick Santorum" Barring that, however, the information is fully relevant in this article. I object to the removal of longstanding consensus information per WP:EDITWAR. WP:EDITWAR is an essay, not policy. heh. We are heading to ArbCom very fast here. Be——Critical 18:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well, it's related to the subject and you've got some reliable sources; that doesn't make it DUE, though. It would be DUE if it had had some observable impact on Santorum; if it was being commented on in slang dictionaries. Something like that. Real world impact. Prove it's due. You have to make that case, otherwise, it fails BLP
and HARM. So, before dragging the community through that pile, I'd like to hear your case for DUE, just to be sure you can articulate a sound argument, and you're not going to waste everybody's time. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:37, 26 January 2012 (UTC)- There is no WP:HARM, "This principle was ultimately rejected". I don't know whether it's DUE. Be——Critical 20:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- ...DUE, on the other hand (as opposed to relevance), is a pertinent argument. Normally, 3+ major media articles entirely about an event that mention it in connection with the subject of the article would establish weight, but perhaps this subject is so notable that we have a higher threshold. I also note that some people were unaware that the status quo included the paragraph, it was not a recent event or addition. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Let's not practice revisionist edit history here, one way or the other. I was involved in the previous relatively short tussle over this addition. Most everyone moved on with the addition of the content minus the actual definition BUT...like everything else associated with this article, the pro-Savage POV pushing is incessant in disregarding, save for token concessions, fundamental NPOV editing principles. The current lead composition, as compared to what existed 3+ weeks ago, is a POV abomination...and it will get worse until the editorial community gets off their collective duff and does something about it. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I wasn't privy to any negotiated truce on the matter, but I suppose I could pore through the edit history again if I had to. I do observe that from last August through the present there has been a paragraph about Savage's going at it again in 2011 with Santorum's first name, and that a few days ago in the midst of the renewed debate over the link an edit war arose to remove the entire paragraph. I'd be careful about labeling a group of editors as partisans, as that's an accusation of bad faith, discourages consensus, and in any event is probably not correct. We're all free to have consistent positions on policies, some people have expansive views of BLP and feel that trumps inclusive encyclopedic coverage. Others, like me, consistently take the inclusionist position that we should unflinchingly cover all subjects, whether dignified or otherwise. That doesn't necessarily cut across lines of American party politics or gay rights. Tarc, for example, has been accused elsewhere by some as taking pro-liberal positions, but here he is solidly on the side of not besmirching an outspoken conservative. I don't know the other editors as well, but I'd hazard a guess that some of the inclusionist editors here would say the same if the target were a liberal. You'd have to, if you want to be principled about it. You can remind me of that if I ever advocate against content reflecting a public attack on a liberal politician. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Let's not practice revisionist edit history here, one way or the other. I was involved in the previous relatively short tussle over this addition. Most everyone moved on with the addition of the content minus the actual definition BUT...like everything else associated with this article, the pro-Savage POV pushing is incessant in disregarding, save for token concessions, fundamental NPOV editing principles. The current lead composition, as compared to what existed 3+ weeks ago, is a POV abomination...and it will get worse until the editorial community gets off their collective duff and does something about it. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- ...DUE, on the other hand (as opposed to relevance), is a pertinent argument. Normally, 3+ major media articles entirely about an event that mention it in connection with the subject of the article would establish weight, but perhaps this subject is so notable that we have a higher threshold. I also note that some people were unaware that the status quo included the paragraph, it was not a recent event or addition. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- There is no WP:HARM, "This principle was ultimately rejected". I don't know whether it's DUE. Be——Critical 20:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Well, it's related to the subject and you've got some reliable sources; that doesn't make it DUE, though. It would be DUE if it had had some observable impact on Santorum; if it was being commented on in slang dictionaries. Something like that. Real world impact. Prove it's due. You have to make that case, otherwise, it fails BLP
- I'm with JakeinJoisey here: the "rick" part (if it's sourced I haven't checked) is very relevant, but suggests a rename. I suggest Dan Savage campaign to redefine "Rick Santorum" Barring that, however, the information is fully relevant in this article. I object to the removal of longstanding consensus information per WP:EDITWAR. WP:EDITWAR is an essay, not policy. heh. We are heading to ArbCom very fast here. Be——Critical 18:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Scholarly treatment
Has this campaign been subjected to scholarly analysis yet? Sorry, I can't be bothered going through the archives. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:17, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, it has. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 14:29, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've read that. I mean something peer reviewed. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course. Can you be bothered to use Google Scholar? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- That rings a bell. I notice we're not citing it. I'm quite capable of dredging up random citations from google. I was wondering if the editors here are aware of anything worth reading on the issue in the academic press. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:07, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nomo, that article, “ShitText: Toward a New Coprophilic Style”, only mentions santorum in a single sentence in an endnote. Aside from saying Dan Savage coined the term “in honor of Senator Rick Santorum”, there’s nothing related to the campaign. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 01:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Of course. Can you be bothered to use Google Scholar? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, I've read that. I mean something peer reviewed. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:41, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
So what now re the link?
There is a consensus for including the link. But including it would lead to an edit war. So what are the next steps people want to take here? Be——Critical 18:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- As previously suggested, an RfC, first composed to the satisfaction of both positions before presentation, is the reasonable and logical approach. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- What's the mystery? The question is whether to include the link or not. It's not as if we're trying to compose text here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:56, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, Jake: What would an RfC offer? In point of fact, we just went through an RfC on this. Just because it wasn't quite formatted that way doesn't mean we didn't do it. We did all the things that RfCs do. Be——Critical 19:04, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- What would an RfC offer?...We did all the things that RfCs do.
- Community wide participation in an atmosphere not quite so laden with POV-pushing. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, but really, can we PLEASE find some way to speed things up? I don't want to have to wait 30 days on these simple matters. How about 3 or 4 days max? Also, let's do as you say and agree on the wording and summary information before posting it as an RfC. Be——Critical 19:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nomo and Jake are right but, as with the verb, can you explain how the link isn't a violation of WP:BLP, "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment"? and WP:HARM, "avoiding harm remains an important consideration within our living persons policy." You can justify harm to a living person if the content meets DUE. But, as a hyperlink teaches the reader nothing that the url doesn't, how do you justify the obvious harm that a hyperlink will do to the subject? If you can't do that, you've nothing to take to an RfC. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Hey, the URL without the hyperlink was offered as a compromise, and rejected. Hey, even mention that there exists a website was rejected [3]. The current consensus is for the full hyperlink. I guess the question is whether the reader should be able to easily find the site, that is should we have it in an external links section. To further address your question, no one has explained how there would actually be any further harm to Santorum from our linking to the site. And if there would be, whether that harm, per the actual phrasing of BLP, is as it were "undue," whether that consideration is overridden by the consideration that Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, should not be censored based on what might or might not be harmful and what external sites do. Censorship doesn't pass the snicker test to me: I don't actually think we're doing Santorum a whit more harm. And we routinely link to WP:ELOFFICIAL sites which do much more or similar possible harm, as noted above. So I simply disagree that there is any obvious further harm. Be——Critical 20:17, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Nomo and Jake are right but, as with the verb, can you explain how the link isn't a violation of WP:BLP, "the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment"? and WP:HARM, "avoiding harm remains an important consideration within our living persons policy." You can justify harm to a living person if the content meets DUE. But, as a hyperlink teaches the reader nothing that the url doesn't, how do you justify the obvious harm that a hyperlink will do to the subject? If you can't do that, you've nothing to take to an RfC. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 19:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, but really, can we PLEASE find some way to speed things up? I don't want to have to wait 30 days on these simple matters. How about 3 or 4 days max? Also, let's do as you say and agree on the wording and summary information before posting it as an RfC. Be——Critical 19:22, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, Jake: What would an RfC offer? In point of fact, we just went through an RfC on this. Just because it wasn't quite formatted that way doesn't mean we didn't do it. We did all the things that RfCs do. Be——Critical 19:04, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
What? The article presently says "Savage set up a website, spreadingsantorum.com ..." You have been told, somewhere in that wall above, that, obviously, Wikipedia hyperlinking to a SEOd attack site will compound the harm to the victim. If all you've got is "What harm?" you haven't a hope. You're wasting everybody's time. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- The alleged harm isn't at all obvious. You can say we've been told it's harmful, but that remains to be seen. The website in question receives tons of inbound links from the main search engines, other people's web pages, and even some news sources (the Seattle Times, the International Business Times, and Mother Jones at a quick glance). The impulse that says "leave it out" is based on two unproved premises: first, that absent our linking it, the site and its search engine placement will go away (that's clearly not happening); second, that our linking the page participates in the attack (which, due to WP's use of NOFOLLOW tags, is flat-out wrong). Thus, concerns about "harm," while admirable, are nonetheless misplaced. WP's external linking policy is designed to aid readers in finding further information about their topics of research, and is followed even in cases such as Orly Taitz, where WP links to an external site devoted to attacking a living person, on WP:ELOFFICIAL grounds. Failure to treat this page similarly is a violation of NPOV. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 20:46, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's very interesting. I'm going to sleep on this. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- No follow is only on this site , the hundreds of mirrors are not obliged to and many don't use No follow. If that orly tatz site (which is nowhere near as bad at the Savage blogger site which has a lot of user generated content ) is the only one you have managed to find then linking to such attacking sites is hardly common practice is it. Youreallycan 21:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since when do we set our editing policies and content on what mirror sites do? That is out of our control and is neither here nor there. Heiro 21:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- When the link has been created specifically to do harm by google bombing, demeaning and attacking content in regard to a living subject of one of our articles. Youreallycan 21:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Totally irrelevant. We are not in the least bit responsible for what mirror sites do or don't do, and their actions have zero bearing on WP editing decisions. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its not totally irrelevant at all. BLP encourages us to carefully consider such situations. Youreallycan 22:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with Youreallycan. Not follow makes it (far) less harmful, but not harmless, and since the hyperlink adds nothing to the readers' understanding, including it would be gratuitous abetting of a personal attack, which violates BLP. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- When the link has been created specifically to do harm by google bombing, demeaning and attacking content in regard to a living subject of one of our articles. Youreallycan 21:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- @YRC: On the contrary. Quick investigation shows quite a number of official sites are linked from pages under "Individuals" and "Media" on Template:White nationalism. And if that standard of harm isn't sufficient to forbid external linking, I don't see how this possibly can be. As far as other sites devoted to attacking specific individuals go, their subjects frankly tend not to be notable, and thus don't have WP articles in the first place. I'm sure someone who's more of a news junkie than I am would be able to come up with some example besides this and Taitz. The fact that these cases are rare argues in favor of treating them the same as their closest relatives. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 21:34, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Such situations are not only rare - you have as yet not presented one that is similar imo - that orly tatz one is minor compared to this. Youreallycan 22:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- (EC)That's funny, I don't remember reading anywhere in the extensive discussion above saying that that is why it should be added. We can not control what mirror sites do and we shouldn't base our decisions here on how they choose to run their websites. As stated above by another user "WP's external linking policy is designed to aid readers in finding further information about their topics of research", linking to the site does this. As soon as it is enshrined in our policies "Thou shalt take into account what everyone else on the internet does before making decisions" then we can begin taking mirror sites into the equation here.Heiro 21:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its not funny at all. BLP already encourages us to avoid harm, and err on the side of caution in regards to any additions that relate to living people. We already have a long term satisfactory compromise to this issue and users demanding to add this attacking and demeaning external should take it on-board as a satisfactory NPOV position. Youreallycan 22:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- (EC)That's funny, I don't remember reading anywhere in the extensive discussion above saying that that is why it should be added. We can not control what mirror sites do and we shouldn't base our decisions here on how they choose to run their websites. As stated above by another user "WP's external linking policy is designed to aid readers in finding further information about their topics of research", linking to the site does this. As soon as it is enshrined in our policies "Thou shalt take into account what everyone else on the internet does before making decisions" then we can begin taking mirror sites into the equation here.Heiro 21:39, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Such situations are not only rare - you have as yet not presented one that is similar imo - that orly tatz one is minor compared to this. Youreallycan 22:18, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Since when do we set our editing policies and content on what mirror sites do? That is out of our control and is neither here nor there. Heiro 21:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- No follow is only on this site , the hundreds of mirrors are not obliged to and many don't use No follow. If that orly tatz site (which is nowhere near as bad at the Savage blogger site which has a lot of user generated content ) is the only one you have managed to find then linking to such attacking sites is hardly common practice is it. Youreallycan 21:02, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's very interesting. I'm going to sleep on this. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 20:55, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- As I see it, the two choices are: (1) wait for at least a few more days to see how the straw poll discussion goes, and then try to assess consensus internally or by inviting an uninvolved admin, or (2) certify the existing discussion as an RfC or clone / compose a new one, and start over... on the usual 30-day clock. The original question / argument list in the straw poll, and the BLP issue chart, are neutrally presented, thorough, and do not favor either position in the debate, so someone could cut and paste those. One thing we shouldn't do is to have already-involved parties modify the article based on their personal judgment about who has consensus - that's lead to a few edit wars already. It seems like a relatively minor issue for an RfC, but perhaps that means we can decide it with goodwill and cooperation all around. If we haven't resolved the "rick" verb thing by then I would add that as a secondary question in the RFC. Meanwhile, cup of tea. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- There's a discussion of this issue in sections above. I have no objection to asking an uninvolved admin to make a judgment as to consensus apparent there; we can even wait a couple of days (though I doubt that there will be more activity there). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- I can't say things better than ☯.ZenSwashbuckler did above, but that position has my support. I can only reiterate that basing Wikipedia content on what outside forces do is to set a precedent which will destroy the encyclopedia. And if Youreallycan is right, I have a lot of biographies of dead people who have living relatives who might be harmed by the things we say, so they need to be cleansed. Not to mention all the harm the Vagina article has done to young minds. Notice I didn't link that. As SchmuckyTheCat said, the judgment of "harmful is both a POV and OR. Where do we start defining which harmful links we are going to remove? Which objective criteria do we use? This is original research based not on actual content, but on abstract meta concepts. We aren't going there. Why are we removing harmful links but not advocate links? You want to whitewash this project of criticism but allow advocacy? That is a massive philosophical breach of our core pillar, WP:NPOV. There may be two dozen people on this talk page. In the past, hundreds of editors have chimed in about attack sites, insult sites, shock sites, racist sites and any other kind of offensive material. Self-censorship, harm, and nebulous BLP rationales have always been dismissed when external links are clearly relevant to the subject matter. It is absurd to think six people on this talk page know policy better than the hundreds that have commented in the past." Be——Critical 00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Opinionated scaremongering alert - " basing Wikipedia content on what outside forces do is to set a precedent which will destroy the encyclopedia." - oh my god, not adding this external blogger attack site will destroy wikipedia - Youreallycan 01:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Resorting to a sarcastic straw man argument is the final nail in the coffin of your position's credibility. Consensus should now reflect that position's demise, and the link should be re-added to the page. As I am heavily involved in this thread, I should not be the one to request this. But uninvolved editors should no longer be under any doubt as to the suitability of the edit. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 01:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have not even started yet - the biased desire to add this attack external from POV users against careful consideration of policy and guidelines disgusts me, and their, and your, desperate desire to add it, has sadly resulted in the full protection of the article. Youreallycan 01:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Resorting to a sarcastic straw man argument is the final nail in the coffin of your position's credibility. Consensus should now reflect that position's demise, and the link should be re-added to the page. As I am heavily involved in this thread, I should not be the one to request this. But uninvolved editors should no longer be under any doubt as to the suitability of the edit. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 01:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Opinionated scaremongering alert - " basing Wikipedia content on what outside forces do is to set a precedent which will destroy the encyclopedia." - oh my god, not adding this external blogger attack site will destroy wikipedia - Youreallycan 01:34, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I can't say things better than ☯.ZenSwashbuckler did above, but that position has my support. I can only reiterate that basing Wikipedia content on what outside forces do is to set a precedent which will destroy the encyclopedia. And if Youreallycan is right, I have a lot of biographies of dead people who have living relatives who might be harmed by the things we say, so they need to be cleansed. Not to mention all the harm the Vagina article has done to young minds. Notice I didn't link that. As SchmuckyTheCat said, the judgment of "harmful is both a POV and OR. Where do we start defining which harmful links we are going to remove? Which objective criteria do we use? This is original research based not on actual content, but on abstract meta concepts. We aren't going there. Why are we removing harmful links but not advocate links? You want to whitewash this project of criticism but allow advocacy? That is a massive philosophical breach of our core pillar, WP:NPOV. There may be two dozen people on this talk page. In the past, hundreds of editors have chimed in about attack sites, insult sites, shock sites, racist sites and any other kind of offensive material. Self-censorship, harm, and nebulous BLP rationales have always been dismissed when external links are clearly relevant to the subject matter. It is absurd to think six people on this talk page know policy better than the hundreds that have commented in the past." Be——Critical 00:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- There's a discussion of this issue in sections above. I have no objection to asking an uninvolved admin to make a judgment as to consensus apparent there; we can even wait a couple of days (though I doubt that there will be more activity there). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:10, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
- Speaking just from a general administrative/editorial standpoint, I read BLP as urging me to "first, do no harm". I don't read it as prohibiting me from considering the possible harm done by "external forces", in this case, the massive impact of en:wiki including a link, which yes, will be mirrored widely. Note that vagina is not a living person. On another note, WP:BRDP (recently-dead people) should also exist, as the possibility of equal harm exists in linking www.ImGladJohnSmithIsDead.com, only the harm is to the surviving relations in that case. Franamax (talk) 01:54, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes. It's OK to use Wikipedia to harm people if you want, but we have to insist you justify it by showing what didactic or other good it will do. Obvious harm has been demonstrated. Now you must demonstrate the obvious good that justifies this harm. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
(od) I do not see the consensus, and would note that the claim of a consensus is not founded in what is meant at WP:CONSENSUS in any way. Cheers - but use of the link does not have any proper editorial consensus here. Collect (talk) 01:51, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- The weight of considered opinion is clearly in favor of including the link. If consensus means anything beyond filibustering or declaring one's own argument best because one has made it, consensus here favors inclusion. However, only 18 people have weighed in and the discussion is fairly new. So no harm in waiting. The notion that we are harming the opinionated senator Santorum by covering the consequences of senator Santorum's opinions is preposterous on its face and hardly worth the time to consider. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- The weight of considered opinion is clear, as are attempts to hold out. There's no confusion, the situation is pretty obvious. My point is that we should wait a while longer to see if others care to comment, and perhaps go to an RfC, before going to the next step of having a neutral party evaluate this. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Page protection.
In order to stop the recent edit-warring that has persisted for a number of days, I have full protected the article. I have not set an expiry for the protection. When a consensus on the matter of the disputed external link has been achieved, unprotection should be requested either at my talk page or at WP:RFUP.
Additionally, it would be helpful if the editor requesting unprotection could remind the unprotecting administrator to restore the prior protection settings. CIreland (talk) 00:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Excuse me, were you looking for "a consensus on the matter of the disputed external link has been achieved"? It is right here though enough walls of text are on the page I can see how it would be missed. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- There has been a call for an RfC and someone seconded the call. Either a rationale for not starting the RfC should be given or someone should start one. I started the straw poll and I am not starting the RfC. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wrt, don't waste everybody's time: to justify the hyperlink to the wider community, not just some editors who cluster around here, you'll need to demonstrate some significant good it does that would justify the harm, per BLP, or demonstrate that it does no harm. "Not follow" was offered as proof of the latter, but that was rebutted with "mirrors". Before dragging the community through this, can you please plausibly explain how some benefit outweighs the obvious harm? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- And "mirrors" was rebutted with "not our problem". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- If something you do predictably causes a cascade of events that necessarily results in harm, with no compensatory benefit, it's your problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- You think the harm is "obvious" -- but could you perhaps spell it out? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Trystan spells it out nicely here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is that it? Key point: "the consequence of including the link is to greatly increase both traffic to the site and its search ranking". If we're concerned about the LP Rick Santorum, we might want to have a better sense of consequences for him. I genuinely don't think anyone has succeeded in being specific about this. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know about "greatly" but it would scoot more of our readers over to the attack site (the point of hyperlinking), which is bad for the victim of the attack site, and it may, through mirrors, enhance the site's SEO, which would be contributing to the victimization, and the whole thing not only makes us a player but
obviouslyapparently partisan. All harmful, to Santorum and the project. Now, what's the overriding good that necessitates this harm? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 18:46, 27 January 2012 (UTC)- You can't come up with anything, can you? "bad for the victim" -- how, exactly? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- We also, in your words, scoot more of our readers over to Orly Taitz's attack site. We do this not because we are "obviously partisan", but because we are nonpartisan. And though mirror sites may hypothetically (though no evidence has been offered) be enhancing Orly Taitz's SEO, we bear no responsiblity to fix their sites, they do. Take it up with non-nofollow-using mirrors, if you can find any. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 06:18, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know about "greatly" but it would scoot more of our readers over to the attack site (the point of hyperlinking), which is bad for the victim of the attack site, and it may, through mirrors, enhance the site's SEO, which would be contributing to the victimization, and the whole thing not only makes us a player but
- Is that it? Key point: "the consequence of including the link is to greatly increase both traffic to the site and its search ranking". If we're concerned about the LP Rick Santorum, we might want to have a better sense of consequences for him. I genuinely don't think anyone has succeeded in being specific about this. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:21, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Trystan spells it out nicely here. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:43, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- You think the harm is "obvious" -- but could you perhaps spell it out? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- If something you do predictably causes a cascade of events that necessarily results in harm, with no compensatory benefit, it's your problem. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:35, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- And "mirrors" was rebutted with "not our problem". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Wrt, don't waste everybody's time: to justify the hyperlink to the wider community, not just some editors who cluster around here, you'll need to demonstrate some significant good it does that would justify the harm, per BLP, or demonstrate that it does no harm. "Not follow" was offered as proof of the latter, but that was rebutted with "mirrors". Before dragging the community through this, can you please plausibly explain how some benefit outweighs the obvious harm? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:27, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- There has been a call for an RfC and someone seconded the call. Either a rationale for not starting the RfC should be given or someone should start one. I started the straw poll and I am not starting the RfC. Blue Rasberry (talk) 02:07, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Those are reasonable questions. "Bad for the victim" is obviously the case, as it would increase the hits on a page that insults and mocks the victim. But I'm now asking myself "So what? It's not like Savage is making libelous statements. It's political satire. And the site pretty mush is the topic of the article."
So that leaves me with "participating in the campaign" and "appearance of partisanship." You're right, Robin, linking is not necessarily partisan, but it could give the appearance of us being partisan. Does this matter enough to justify removal of the link? Probably not.
So, "participating in the campaign." Does doing what we'd usually do - link to the site that is essentially the topic of an article - constitute taking a political stance? You probably see where this is heading but, since changing my mind is a bit like tearing off an arm for me, I'm going to meditate on this for a bit longer. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm now persuaded that we should include the hyperlink to spreadingsantorum.com in the external links section. I still oppose inclusion of the verb "to rick" because it would mean including just another nasty thing that Savage said about Santorum that had no real world consequences, and our inclusion would be gratuitous boosting of Savage's anti-Santorum campaign. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:26, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Very few people have what it takes to change their mind on any issue in public. When I see it I'm like "wow, too bad I don't know this person in RL." Be——Critical 04:32, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
RfC Proposal - Link or Not Link
Editors are invited to suggest, as briefly and succinctly as possible, pro/con discussion points for community consideration in the formulation of a consensus acceptable RfC. JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:59, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why? We just had a srtraw poll, and consensus is clear. An RfC is unnecessary and disruptive. If you disagree, too bad, or take it to arbcom. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 08:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- A 2:1 split between increasingly entrenched positions is not what I would consider consensus, let alone clear consensus. Unless we can agree on the status quo (unlinked URL in article's body), or the unlinked URL in the External Links section compromise put forth below, I think a RFC might help provide some long-term stability to the issue.
- I would suggest the following. Edits are welcome, particularly to the con side, which is not my own opinion.
- Should Campaign for "santorum" neologism include an external link to spreadingsantorum.com? The unlinked text of the URL is included in the body of the article, but not in the External Links section.
- Argument for inclusion: The site is the official site of the subject of the article (the campaign) and is discussed in the text as central to the article's subject. A reader of the article is likely to seek out the site as a further method of inquiry, which is the purpose of including an external link. While WP:BLP applies, it is not a justification for removing or curtailing coverage of well-sourced, notable, neutrally-presented criticism of a public figure. Our obligation to consider harm extends only to making sure the article is fair and neutral, not to abandon WP:NPOV by adopting Santorum's interests as our own. Our personal opinion of the campaign is not relevant; we provide external links to many other sites that we would never "promote" and are deeply offensive to many, including ones which feature personal attacks. Our NOFOLLOW tags in outgoing links mean our inclusion will not affect page ranking, and what other sites that mirror our content choose to do is not within our control.
- Argument against inclusion: WP:BLP requires us to consider the harm done to living persons by the content of Wikipedia. In this case, providing a link is inherently non-neutral because it involves participation in a campaign to attack an individual. We are responsible for the foreseeable consequences of our actions, and the consequence of including the link is to greatly increase both traffic to the site and its search ranking, because we know our mirrors do not necessarily use NOFOLLOW. We can not claim neutrality while deliberately abetting Savage's personal campaign against Santorum. In comparison to this significant harm, including the link would result in only trivial benefit to the article at best. A reader interested in visiting the site is easily capable of copying the URL or searching for it in Google. The site itself is merely vulgar insult and personal opinion, and therefore not an important information resource. It is its existence, rather than its content, that is important to the article.
- Should Campaign for "santorum" neologism include an external link to spreadingsantorum.com? The unlinked text of the URL is included in the body of the article, but not in the External Links section.
- --Trystan (talk) 14:53, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'll second the placement of this RfC with the language you've carefully crafted with the full expectation that, once placed, there may be a sudden rash of suggested RfC language amendments. There should be a small window of opportunity to do so and any suggested amendments could be submitted and considered in a "Meta Comments" section created in tandem with RfC placement. Do it...with solicitation of a "For" or "Against" response. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's very well put. I do suggest that the table above with pro and con arguments, should be part of any new RfC. And may I put in a plea here for this RfC to be for a shorter time than usual? Be——Critical 00:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do suggest that the table above with pro and con arguments, should be part of any new RfC.
- Inclusion of that table in the RfC language would, IMHO, frighten away 99% of the entire Wikipedia editor population. The suggested text is relatively concise and adequately reflects the issues in contention.
- And may I put in a plea here for this RfC to be for a shorter time than usual?
- An early RfC closure consideration can easily be made by the placing editor (who, IMHO, should be Trystan) if there appears to be an obvious consensus developing for either position. 30 days is not etched in granite.
- I would also STRONGLY recommend against designating separate "for" and "against" sections so as to preclude any suggestion of response sequence bias. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Frankly, if they can't absorb the contents of that table, we are just doing another straw poll, not an RfC. The reason for the table is so they won't have to read the discussion. If you think that they can't even read the table, why would we do the RfC at all? No, if editors can't deal with the arguments, they best not participate. Driving away those who are merely evoting is a good thing. Be——Critical 01:14, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- It's very well put. I do suggest that the table above with pro and con arguments, should be part of any new RfC. And may I put in a plea here for this RfC to be for a shorter time than usual? Be——Critical 00:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'll second the placement of this RfC with the language you've carefully crafted with the full expectation that, once placed, there may be a sudden rash of suggested RfC language amendments. There should be a small window of opportunity to do so and any suggested amendments could be submitted and considered in a "Meta Comments" section created in tandem with RfC placement. Do it...with solicitation of a "For" or "Against" response. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
FYI, I intend to give everyone who voted in the straw poll, without exception, a heads-up on the RfC. Tell me any objections now. Be——Critical 01:15, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
One more try
After all this discussion, does anyone want to reconsider the compromise of a non-linked url like www.spreadingsantorum.com (website for Savage's campaign) in an external links section? It would save us a lot of trouble. Be——Critical 03:54, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- The incorporation of a non-hyperlinked URL in the article main body, if my memory serves me correctly, appeared to be at least an interim compromise resolution that had, also if I recall correctly, some relative stability. Whether that non-hyperlink survived until this most recent resurrection of the hyperlinking issue (and I've no interest in researching it further) is unknown to me. That being said, I've no personal problem with a non-hyperlinked url residing in the main body and no interest at all in seeing it further touted as an "external link"...which, I believe, would be contrary to "external link" MOS anyway. JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:11, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- So you're saying that you would not consider the compromise of having it in an External links section? Sorry, that's what you seem to be saying, just making sure. Be——Critical 04:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- So you're saying that you would not consider the compromise of having it in an External links section?
- Yup. What I'm saying is that incorporation as an unlinked url in the text of the article main body (which is, I believe, the WP MOS preference for content anyway) appeared to enjoy a period of stability which, I'd suggest, implied at least a tenuous consensus. I'd have no objection to restoration of a non-hyperlinked url in the main body text. That clear enuf? JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's great, thanks (: Be——Critical 04:46, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- So you're saying that you would not consider the compromise of having it in an External links section? Sorry, that's what you seem to be saying, just making sure. Be——Critical 04:14, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I agree, that's great :) The unlinked url is still in the section #Campaign by Dan Savage: "Savage set up a website, spreadingsantorum.com, to spread awareness of the term..." It informs the reader without participating in the campaign. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to see something like the following inserted into an external links section: "There is a website which exists for this campaign" or since it is already in the article text "There is a website called 'Spreading Santorum' which exists for this campaign." If there are arguments against doing either of these then I am open for more discussion. Blue Rasberry (talk) 05:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- That section is for links. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 11:40, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'd be willing to accept that compromise if it gains support, but it seems way to strained to me. Be——Critical 05:58, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would call it limp rather than strained. I do not support it so much as I think it is minimally useful and I doubt anyone would oppose it. It seems like a compromise worth proposing because even if no one likes it I think it might be possible to get consensus that it is better than nothing. Blue Rasberry (talk) 06:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- There already is a consensus to include a link. There is no reason to settle for a limp compromise because of a filibustering minority. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- You do not understand the meaning of consensus. Arzel (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Consensus always means 100% approval. If one person disagrees there is no consensus. There is no consensus to include the link. There may be consensus for a compromise which is not well-liked but not opposed at all. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:38, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- You do not understand the meaning of consensus. Arzel (talk) 16:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- There already is a consensus to include a link. There is no reason to settle for a limp compromise because of a filibustering minority. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- I would call it limp rather than strained. I do not support it so much as I think it is minimally useful and I doubt anyone would oppose it. It seems like a compromise worth proposing because even if no one likes it I think it might be possible to get consensus that it is better than nothing. Blue Rasberry (talk) 06:03, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to see something like the following inserted into an external links section: "There is a website which exists for this campaign" or since it is already in the article text "There is a website called 'Spreading Santorum' which exists for this campaign." If there are arguments against doing either of these then I am open for more discussion. Blue Rasberry (talk) 05:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
WP:CONSENSUS absolutley does NOT require 100% approval. Of course consensus is not based on "votes" but when numbers are considered, 66% would be overwhelming consensus in an argument for deletion. It'd be on the low end of approval for a new admin. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
- You are right that consensus does not require 100% approval, but you are no closer to understanding what consensus is. 66% is clearly not overwhelming, and does not even fit with the word consensus. Consensus is a general agreement among a group. I would say there is consensus that the website is integral to promoting the smear campaign, and if 90% or more were in agreement you could say that the overwhelming majority have the consensus that X. None of this matter, because this isn't even a consensus issue, it is a BLP issue and consensus cannot trump BLP. Arzel (talk) 05:59, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- You "doubt anyone would oppose it?" It got reverted with an edit summary specifically saying it wasn't an acceptable compromise [4]. And consensus on Wikipedia does not mean full support. If you think that maybe for this discussion you should go read the policy page. Be——Critical 17:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just a suggestion ot help us move forward - Would an experienced admins assessment of the current talkpage discussion help, as a way of guidance in policy considerations and weight of the current consensus in regards to policy? I imagine users would chose different admins, different admins to do something like that. One I would suggest for such would be User:Sandstein. We could even go further and all agree to accept his judgement. Youreallycan 18:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- That, or an RfC, would be fine. Another option is to make an open request for assistance on AN (heaven help us, not AN/I), and see who shows up. We do have to consider what would happen if things are declared one way or the other. Would the outcome stick and be respected? - Wikidemon (talk) 18:19, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I too think that an open request on AN for an univolved volunteer would be the best option. I don't see any point in an RfC, unless the administrator decides it's needed. I also don't see any point in waiting much longer. Everything that can be said has already been said, and we're just going around in circles now. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I do not trust a single user to decide this. All the way from Jimbo to, I think, members of the ArbCom, people have shown themselves to be incapable of keeping their own POV out of this subject. Perhaps 4 admins, 2 picked by each side of this, but who don't have any obvious POV. Be——Critical 18:49, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just a suggestion ot help us move forward - Would an experienced admins assessment of the current talkpage discussion help, as a way of guidance in policy considerations and weight of the current consensus in regards to policy? I imagine users would chose different admins, different admins to do something like that. One I would suggest for such would be User:Sandstein. We could even go further and all agree to accept his judgement. Youreallycan 18:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- You "doubt anyone would oppose it?" It got reverted with an edit summary specifically saying it wasn't an acceptable compromise [4]. And consensus on Wikipedia does not mean full support. If you think that maybe for this discussion you should go read the policy page. Be——Critical 17:50, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
I was thinking of asking for three uninvolved volunteers, but thought that was too much to ask for. I don't like the idea of us picking the administrators ourselves. We could request politically neutral, non-US administrators. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 18:55, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, non-US, that's a good idea. Particularly European, as they would be less likely to be personally shocked. We don't want people who are deeply religious or something. Be——Critical 19:00, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Or deeply anti-religious, for that matter. I think that should be specified in the request. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- They can't be gay either, or straight for that matter. We must find four well-respected bisexual administrators~ - Wikidemon (talk) 19:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- ...who don't use lube. Point taken. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:41, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- They can't be gay either, or straight for that matter. We must find four well-respected bisexual administrators~ - Wikidemon (talk) 19:32, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Or deeply anti-religious, for that matter. I think that should be specified in the request. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:04, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
So lets just ask User:Sandstein for a non binding assessment of the discussion on the talkpage so far, a NPOV administrators interpretation. Youreallycan 23:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I think a open request would be a better idea. No offense to Sandstein; I don't know them from Adam. Or to you; I'm sure you've suggested them because you think they're impartial. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:42, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't support an open request. I think we should choose one - we have many admins all good at what they do, but we have a few who are well considered in NPOV closures and in interpretation of policy - imo Santstein is one of them. Does anyone have another suggested admin? The fact that their comments will be more for non binding guidance than closure allows us plenty of room for more discussion after. Youreallycan 23:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- Like I said, I don't know Sandstein from Adam, but perhaps there are some among the "include" crowd that do, and also trust their judgement. As for a non-binding opinion, I don't think much of that. It would be basically just another non-adminsitrative opinion in the discussion, and one that was essentially canvassed. If, God forbid, it turns out that Sandstein is not impartial, one way or the other, the results could be quite nasty. And even if he is truly impartial, there may be participants in this discussion who still think otherwise and make a stink. Too big a risk for a non-binding opinion, which isn't what we're looking for anyway. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't support an open request. I think we should choose one - we have many admins all good at what they do, but we have a few who are well considered in NPOV closures and in interpretation of policy - imo Santstein is one of them. Does anyone have another suggested admin? The fact that their comments will be more for non binding guidance than closure allows us plenty of room for more discussion after. Youreallycan 23:48, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- If we are concerned about our ability to get an objective decision on this particular contentious fact set, perhaps it would be constructive to instead seek to plug the gap in policy/guidelines that it highlights. If we were to propose something like "Should 'sites that attack living persons' be added to WP:ELNEVER?", it might be easier to build a consensus on the issue in the abstract and then apply it to the facts.--Trystan (talk) 00:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think a policy clarification would be a good thing. It's such a rare situation - its almost completely unknown in the millions of wikipedia articles that sites are created only to attack a living person and that editors want to add it. Youreallycan 00:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, I don't think that a blanket statement like that would ever be accepted, due to the fact that any site that voices any criticism whatsoever of a living person could be described as an "attack" site. Even if it were to be accepted, there would be lots of bickering over what sites qualify as "attack" sites, and what sites don't. For example, Santorum's own official site would qualify as an "attack" site, since he attacks both Obama and Gingrich on it. The same could probably be said of any other politician's or political party's site. Furthermore, I myself would not characterize Savage's site as an "attack" site, and I'm sure I'm not alone. It's primarily defensive in character, and a response to an unprovoked attack by Santorum, one that was far more vulgar and offensive than what Savage came up with. The furthest I'd be willing to go is that it's a "counter-attack" site. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes - there are pages and pages of chat threads there - anyone that has a blogger account can upload stuff and add demeaning and attacking comments and content. Youreallycan 00:53, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, I think a policy clarification would be a good thing. It's such a rare situation - its almost completely unknown in the millions of wikipedia articles that sites are created only to attack a living person and that editors want to add it. Youreallycan 00:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Dominus Vobisdu wrote:
- "Furthermore, I myself would not characterize Savage's site as an "attack" site, and I'm sure I'm not alone. It's primarily defensive in character, and a response to an unprovoked attack by Santorum, one that was far more vulgar and offensive than what Savage came up with."
- People, its comments like these that serve only to reveal our own personal biases. If we can refrain from making such comments, or if we can simply recuse ourselves from participating here just to promote our own POV, then things might run more smoothly. We have a nice policy called NPOV, let's all please read it. -Stevertigo (t | c) 00:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Dominus Vobisdu wrote:
- Robin Lionheart wrote on the Wiktionary entry talk page[5]:
- "It has real world usage in my circle of friends. Once we were playing a game of French Toast, and for a while our leader's standard of comparison was "santorum on a stick", so santorum got used repeatedly that night. Regardless, santorum has sufficient usage to meet Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion."
- Again, these types of comments only reveal the biases of the editor, and thus disqualify the editor as acting out of POV rather than out of fidelity to NPOV. NPOV is our prime directive, we should all be familiar with what it means. -Stevertigo (t | c) 01:06, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Robin Lionheart wrote on the Wiktionary entry talk page[5]:
- Yes, in real life, my friends and I have referred to that frothy substance as santorum. What bias do you think that anecdote conveys? Why, specifically, do you think it would disqualify me from writing from a neutral perspective? ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 01:37, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I like Youreallycan's Idea of getting something into policy, but fear that Dominus is right that it wouldn't work, and unless it did then it wouldn't solve our problems. I have no dog in either fight here, since I don't have strong feelings about gay rights and I don't think Santorum is more than a small side show. But surely the comment of "man on dog" in the context of gay sex is just as vulgar as the santorum definition. So, if the policy tweak idea won't work, what else? I don't think we can trust a single individual. Be——Critical 01:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- @Stevertigo: I agree that our personal opinions of Savage's campaign are irrelevant and not really helpful to share. Though I feel it would be fair to point out that, in addition to the examples you list, there has been a fair amount of open disgust and moral opprobrium expressed by those opposing inclusion of the link. This is equally unhelpful for determining a neutral approach to the article. Nor is bringing in editors' comments from other sites into this discussion, and then condemning them as inappropriate, particularly constructive.--Trystan (talk) 01:24, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see much of that at all Trystan. Aside from the pro-slur activism, I see people here with a legitimate dislike for using Wikipedia (and Wiktionary) as a soapbox to promote their dislike for Rick Santorum. NPOV is the issue here. We report on the slur and the googlebomb from an objective point of view. -Stevertigo (t | c) 01:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- When your side is composed entirely of reasonable people trying to neutrally enforce policy, and the other side is composed entirely of activists trying to push a POV, it may be time to step back and make a renewed attempt to assume good faith. One could just as equally condemn the activists who want to delete content we would normally include in order to protect Santorum's interests. It wouldn't be any more accurate, or helpful to achieve consensus.
- Both sides have good (and good faith) arguments based on differing interpretations of existing policies. And I think both sides are having some difficulty divorcing their opinions of Savage's "slur" (or should that be "political expression"?) from reaching a neutral consensus.--Trystan (talk) 03:05, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- First of all I don't have a "side," except for neutrality. So naturally I have the problem of typically, not always, being in the company of "reasonable people trying to neutrally enforce policy." I understand that there are also POV editors who have sought to sanitize the article in certain ways, but I am not one of them, nor am I suggesting that we sanitize the article in any way, so it cannot be said that I'm on their side. But neither am I on the side that thinks someone's immature attempt to smear/slur someone's name should be promoted, either in the company of friends, or here on Wikipedia. -Stevertigo (t | c) 04:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Is describing the subject of an article as immature and saying it shouldn't be talked about by private individuals really compatible with a neutral approach? Not that it isn't an entirely reasonable view to hold; editors are allowed to have opinions on the articles they edit. But we have to set them aside and approach all subjects dispassionately.
- We can not, of course, use Wikipedia to promote this (or any other) subject. And promoting a site that attacks a living person would be a clear BLP violation. My question would be, under what circumstances does linking to a site constitute promoting it? Presumably everything we link to receives increased traffic and, via our mirrors, a search engine bump. If that constitutes promotion, there is a lot we shouldn't be linking to. Certainly not white supremacist forms or birther conspiracies, probably not politicians or activist groups.--Trystan (talk) 16:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Robin Lionheart wrote:
- "Yes, in real life, my friends and I have referred to that frothy substance as santorum. What bias do you think that anecdote conveys? Why, specifically, do you think it would disqualify me from writing from a neutral perspective?"
First of all, I don't actually deal with "that frothy substance" at all, so I have no need to reference it. But I suppose that may not be the case with you, and so I do understand therefore that you and others may feel there is some need to create a word to give reference to some fundamental part of your universe. But here's the problem: Typically a word is created when there is a concept without a name. Hence there is need for a word to reference that concept, and a name/word is created (and formed in accordance with the sound patterns of a given language). That was not the case with this word's "coinage." It was not promoted out of a need to give a name to an important concept, but out of a particular activist's desire to make someone's name into a slur. Furthermore, looking at the Wiktionary article's entry, we have a case where activists are promoting that the word "santorum" be used in the place of "shit" or "crap" without the distinction of lube, etc. How many different words do we need for "shit" or "crap?" "This is not a dictionary" is one of our original principles, but this also is not Urban Dictionary either. -Stevertigo (t | c) 04:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Discussion of behaviour at Wictionary |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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Speaking from the outside, I would support Youreallycan's suggestion of asking one uninvolved admin to make a non-binding summary. I see no reason at all that shouldn't be Sandstein. They are well versed in policy and I would trust them to decline if they had any significant bias. Ya'know people, arguing about how to ask for the "right" admin or "choose up sides" among neutral admins is pretty lame, it's a non-binding comment fer cryin' out loud. And it might give you some insight, whether you each agree with it or not. I have very close to zero contact ever with either Yrc or S, and I have no idea what S would say, but I think this is a very good idea. Franamax (talk) 05:11, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Not Sandstein. I don't trust them. Be——Critical 07:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your heavily-involved opinion. Do you trust these 13 active editors more? That's where this seems to be heading unless there's a little less picking of teams here. This bears the signs of an "intractible dispute between editors", you can't even agree on how to ask for outside help. Franamax (talk) 07:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- YRC is a determined partisan in this discussion, and if he is suggesting Sandstein then it's a sure sign he expects Sandstein to take his side. If we're going to get admin input here in a way that will help us get some closure, then it should be an admin suggested/chosen by someone who isn't invested here. Franamax, perhaps you could be of assistance: that is, perhaps you could approach another admin whom you would expect to be able to judge the existing discussion in a dispassionate way. Don't turn it into a discussion here -- the last thing we need is extended discussion of whether your choice is appropriate (we'll end up needing an RfC for it...). Naturally what we need is someone who can summarize and discern the conclusion of the existing discussion, similarly to an AfD (where the closing admin is not !voting). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- LOL! "Partisan"? Not! He is, admittedly a strong proponent of WP:BLP but I have never heard him be called "partisan." That epithet is one of the last refuges of arguments when a person does not have consensus on his side - when there is no factual basis for the charge, it is like rain on a sheet of polished glass, and of no value. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- YRC is a determined partisan in this discussion, and if he is suggesting Sandstein then it's a sure sign he expects Sandstein to take his side. If we're going to get admin input here in a way that will help us get some closure, then it should be an admin suggested/chosen by someone who isn't invested here. Franamax, perhaps you could be of assistance: that is, perhaps you could approach another admin whom you would expect to be able to judge the existing discussion in a dispassionate way. Don't turn it into a discussion here -- the last thing we need is extended discussion of whether your choice is appropriate (we'll end up needing an RfC for it...). Naturally what we need is someone who can summarize and discern the conclusion of the existing discussion, similarly to an AfD (where the closing admin is not !voting). Nomoskedasticity (talk) 08:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your heavily-involved opinion. Do you trust these 13 active editors more? That's where this seems to be heading unless there's a little less picking of teams here. This bears the signs of an "intractible dispute between editors", you can't even agree on how to ask for outside help. Franamax (talk) 07:50, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I have no idea actually what User:Sandstein would say, he often surprises me but his closures are respected. He is however as I am aware with no known bias in this area and a person that is determinedly NPOV and policy driven in his closures.User:Ironholds is another person I am reminded is very experienced in policy and a respected NPOV closer. Youreallycan 10:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- In the interest of getting this resolved, I'll second User:Ironholds. I agree that he is both extremely experienced and well-respected. That's one endorsement from each "side". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Cool - yes, this is not a win lose situation , we are obliged to work this out one way or the other with as little drama as possible and get the article unprotected. Youreallycan 11:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Great. The sooner we get this taken care of, the better, as far as I'm concerned. Suggest contacting Ironholds in 24 hours unless there are any objections. I don't think we'll come up with anyone else soon that could be endorsed by both "sides", and the only alternatives I see are an open request on AN, or letting this go to Arbcom. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:19, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Cool - yes, this is not a win lose situation , we are obliged to work this out one way or the other with as little drama as possible and get the article unprotected. Youreallycan 11:08, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- In the interest of getting this resolved, I'll second User:Ironholds. I agree that he is both extremely experienced and well-respected. That's one endorsement from each "side". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Adding names: Arthur Rubin and Malik Shabazz (assuredly not in cahoots with one another), and Jclemens and NewYorkBrad (hopefully able to keep the verbiage down and not have it be a frothy mixture). I am suggesting pairs of names, and not with any intent of them being on any side at all. Collect (talk) 13:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- I'm happy to see what Ironholds says. Be——Critical 16:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Me, too. I'm putting the kibosh on Jclemens, though. He and I were on opposite sides of an RfC once, and it was far more contentious than this one is. I was surprised afterwards to learn that he's an administrator and Arbcom member. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Risker (talk · contribs) (Arbitrator) generally makes sense. She has a very good, and balanced, understanding of BLP. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 16:55, 28 January 2012 (UTC) Addition. 04:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone have an objection to asking Ironholds? From his userpage, he looks like the ideal, in that he's not religious, not against gays but probably, my guess, not for Savage's campaign, and I think it is a plus that he is familiar with the law. Legal reasoning would give a good grasp of how different forces are to be given balance in reasoning. I didn't think that we would find anyone I'd be willing to take a chance on, thus my request for multiple reviewers. But I'd take a chance on this. Be——Critical 18:38, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, as I stated above. I would have no objection to a one of three but his strongly held views would imo rule the user out as a single commenter. We could always add the request when we ask to please recuse if they have strongly held views in regard to issues in relation to R Santorum or D Savage. Youreallycan 18:40, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Per Nomoskedaticity's comment above, I have already contacted the admin I would pick for this and they are willing to do it. I did consider asking Ironholds too, but went with my first pick. Franamax (talk) 19:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's great -- much appreciated. This is certainly better than having it arranged via nomination here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Kind of strange. I mean, what this looks like is an attempt to do an end-run around the consensus process. What do others think? Be——Critical 20:04, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- That's great -- much appreciated. This is certainly better than having it arranged via nomination here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- The mandate would be to summarize the discussion, provide policy guidance, and suggest ways forward. The various parties on this page seem to be hopelessly deadlocked to me, so sooner or later you're going to have to ask for outside help (or have it thrust upon you). I don't want to ask my "mystery guest" to begin if they are just going to get screamed at, so I'll wait for a few more comments. Franamax (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Becritical's comment was unfortunate (particularly before it was reduced). I see no evidence at all that Franamax's contributions to this page are anything other than "procedural", and at this point I think we're much better off with an admin chosen by a manifestly neutral party. Anyone who does any screaming should be dealt with under the heading of "disruptive". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Commenting on a redacted post is of limited benefit to drama reduction. No one is being "dealt with as disruptive" either - we are working together to resolve this dispute one way or the other. Youreallycan 21:00, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you have a "mystery guest" who we will all be able to accept- fine. But if you think they will have a chance of being screamed at, please don't try to undercut the process. I didn't think the process we were going through was in any way improper. It seemed as if both sides of this argument were attempting to come up with editors who were neutral. Suddenly saying you are going to bring on an editor whom only you know is, well, very strange. So no offense, you surely see how it looked. Be——Critical 21:21, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Commenting on a redacted post is of limited benefit to drama reduction. No one is being "dealt with as disruptive" either - we are working together to resolve this dispute one way or the other. Youreallycan 21:00, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Becritical's comment was unfortunate (particularly before it was reduced). I see no evidence at all that Franamax's contributions to this page are anything other than "procedural", and at this point I think we're much better off with an admin chosen by a manifestly neutral party. Anyone who does any screaming should be dealt with under the heading of "disruptive". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- The mandate would be to summarize the discussion, provide policy guidance, and suggest ways forward. The various parties on this page seem to be hopelessly deadlocked to me, so sooner or later you're going to have to ask for outside help (or have it thrust upon you). I don't want to ask my "mystery guest" to begin if they are just going to get screamed at, so I'll wait for a few more comments. Franamax (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
First of all, Dominus and Robin Lionheart have yet to answer my comments above. Second, I don't understand this idea of finding someone to arbitrate here. Is it because it seems hard to find consensus? One way to find consensus is to discern which people have a POV and which do not. Ive done some of that here, and we should continue this work at Wiktionary too, as there seems to be some entrenched POV there too. See my comments on that talk page: [9]. By identifying which editors have POV in mind more than NPOV, we can move on toward making an article which doesn't contain fundamental flaws in its approach. -Stevertigo (t | c) 22:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- The only people who have a POV are the ones who disagree with me. If you know what I mean. Look, in my view the discussion/straw-poll above is clear, almost 2 to 1 in favor of including the link. Those in the 1 category refuse to accept this as consensus, so as Franamax says we have an apparently intractable dispute. Getting an uninvolved admin to contribute an outcome here -- akin to a close for an AfD -- might help move things on. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
- Steve, you didn't answer my question above, about how you discern POV. Earlier you quoted a comment I posted to Wiktionary, where I described my friends and I using the term santorum in real life, as a comment that would "reveal the biases of the editor, and thus disqualify the editor as acting out of POV rather than out of fidelity to NPOV". I asked you, "What bias do you think that anecdote conveys? Why, specifically, do you think it would disqualify me from writing from a neutral perspective?" ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 13:10, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- We should probably stop talking about POV- unless it becomes more of a problem. I redacted my own remark within seconds. Be——Critical 16:33, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- I can see why the minority in favor of link removal might want to have a single "unbiased" administrator make a binding call on the matter of link inclusion, but the correct procedure is for imlementation of an RFC. The minority has already managed to successfully "lock" its preferences into the page, I note. This needs to be reversed expeditiously — it's a form of system-gaming. Carrite (talk) 18:14, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- As I understand it, the admin view won't be binding (certainly not permanently). Anyway, we have a straw poll above (where you have now also contributed), and the point would be to have someone discern the conclusion evident there. You might note that I'm among those calling for this, and I'm not part of the minority. (For the record, the numbers there are currently 14 - 6, favoring inclusion of the link.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:31, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
- There's something absurd about this. We've got the name of the site spreadingsantorum.com up there on the page - it barely matters if it's linked. But it should be referenced properly from the References section, cite web template and everything, and that includes a link. We should also have an "Official link" to the website from the External Links section for completeness. But while my preference for these extra links is relatively weak, there's no point in "voting for a compromise"; it doesn't really improve the consensus. Wnt (talk) 03:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
(od) Read WP:CONSENSUS and note that it is not a "vote" but reaching a compromise if possible while strictly following Wikipedia policies (that is, votes can not abrograte policy). In the case at hand, there is a reasonable belief that WP:BLP is violated by a proposed addition, and thus it requires far more than a "vote" at the very least. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Get on with it
The straw poll made it obvious what the consensus here is. We don't need some outside editor to come and tell us. So, what are the ways forward? RfC? I think dispute resolution is stupid: no one is going to change their minds, all compromises have been rejected. Unless people want to go to an RfC, we might just as well put the link in the article. If that doesn't work, it is a matter of editor behavior, that is, blockading consensus in the name of BLP. If we do an RfC, it should have a preset time limit much less than 30 days. If there isn't an RfC, we should go directly to ArbCom. No reason to spend loads of time on this. Anyone got any other options? Be——Critical 00:58, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Read WP:CONSENSUS. Cheers. Collect (talk) 02:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Okay then, so do you want to put the link in the article, or shall I? Cheers. Be——Critical 03:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes - bump it up as you feel - we have gridlock here and could use some policy clarification. What happened to the uninvolved admin, has that been rejected? Youreallycan 16:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- We could get an uninvolved admin, I think we got derailed by the "mystery admin" thing. Do you want more than one? I would agree to Ironholds, but not sure everyone would. But realistically, do you think that if he said the consensus was to put in the link that the problem would be solved? Be——Critical 17:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see that a simple head count consensus is acceptable - We need a a NPOV policy driven assessment of the discussion on this talkpage. I don't know who the mystery volunteer was, but I do think his assessment would have been beneficial - Why is this blogger external link not in the article after years of existence? The answer is not - because there is more users that want to include it than don't. Youreallycan 17:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- The answer is that consensus has changed: before there was no consensus to put it in, indeed consensus against. I was a lone voice of reason in the wilderness then :P Do you like Ironholds? Be——Critical 18:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree with that position - my position is that interpretation of policy in relation to the consensus in this, and that, and all the discussions over the last four/five years has not changed at all and that is why the link is still not in the article then and now. Ironholds, yes I see him as a quality administrator but as I said above - the user has clear and strong opinions displayed on his userpage that imo if you were to ask him , with the caveat, if you hold strong personal opinions in relation to D Savage or R Santorum to please recuse, he would likely not take up the chalice. Youreallycan 18:41, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- The answer is that consensus has changed: before there was no consensus to put it in, indeed consensus against. I was a lone voice of reason in the wilderness then :P Do you like Ironholds? Be——Critical 18:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see that a simple head count consensus is acceptable - We need a a NPOV policy driven assessment of the discussion on this talkpage. I don't know who the mystery volunteer was, but I do think his assessment would have been beneficial - Why is this blogger external link not in the article after years of existence? The answer is not - because there is more users that want to include it than don't. Youreallycan 17:59, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- We could get an uninvolved admin, I think we got derailed by the "mystery admin" thing. Do you want more than one? I would agree to Ironholds, but not sure everyone would. But realistically, do you think that if he said the consensus was to put in the link that the problem would be solved? Be——Critical 17:49, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
Edit request, perhaps? The straw poll indicates 14 people favoring inclusion, 6 people opposing; there is also Anthonyhcole, who indicates a change of mind and now favors inclusion. Normally this would be entirely sufficient for implementing an edit on a fully-protected page. Of course, with edit request, we take our chances -- any admin can answer it -- so perhaps it's not the right approach. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see why not. Have it done, and then if the admins wheel war, or if anyone dislikes having the link, I believe it is necessary to take it to ArbCom. Alternately, a community-wide RfC. But those tend to draw so much noise from editors simply repulsed but having no real policy arguments, same as with the AfDs on this article. Be——Critical 19:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Neither of you have any idea of what consensus is; on top of that this is not a consensus issue, it is a BLP issue. This is not a race, let the process work itself out and go work on something else. Arzel (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Although the exact setting is fairly unique, this is fundamentally no different than any other disagreement over policy interpretation and content, both of which are consensus matters. Policy is not up for debate, but interpretation of policy is something that we do on every page, constantly. Normally we would expect editors to work it out among themselves, and take a dim view of obstructionist tactics like edit warring, wikilawyering, assuming bad faith, and so on. As the term consensus is used on Wikipedia, there appears to be a consensus that this is not a BLP issue, and a further consensus that as an editorial matter we should stick with convention by including a link to the website that is the subject of the article. A vocal minority of editors disagrees and brings up policy and editorial arguments for their position. Both sides argue that policy and consensus are on their side, and the minority seems content to edit war the article to the point of page protection to keep the status quo. Under the circumstances, making an edit that is certain to provoke a reversion is a pointless escalation. So there appears to be a stalemate. There are dispute resolution means available (including some opportunities for reconsideration), so that's the sensible way to deal with it. Those means will eventually produce an answer that will disappoint one side or the other, or both. At that point the result gets declared, and we're expected to respect that decision whether we agree with it or not. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- If an edit request results in an edit to the page and the page remains protected, there won't be a reversion. Additionally: there is now an additional !vote for inclusion] at the straw poll. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Understood, but making an edit to a protected page is a use of the tools, so it's tantamount to an administrative ruling on where consensus lies and whether there is a policy prohibition that would trump consensus. Normally the protection is just used to stop edit wars and calm discussion, not to enforce the "right" result. I note that the currently protected version also omits a paragraph about "ricking", which was the subject of a new dispute and edit war. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you sure this is not a path that's open to us? The edit request template produces a box that reads (in part): "This template should be used only to request edits to fully protected pages that are either uncontroversial or supported by consensus." With 18 people now favoring inclusion and 6 opposed, I'd be surprised if the discussion here could be read by a neutral party as anything other than consensus. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, on further consideration, Wikidemon is right about the edit request. If I were an admin I'd certainly consider it out of line. So, what's next? If this were a close issue, there would be more excuse for spending a lot of time at DR. Are there any fairly expeditious paths to take? Be——Critical 21:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Ask User:Sandstein to close it with a total mandate of acceptance of his judgment - I have no idea what he will say or even if he would be prepared to close and add the link if that was the close. Youreallycan 21:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- No. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are there any fairly expeditious paths to take?
- The proposed RfC...designed to solicit a much more broad Wikipedia community consideration, I'd suggest particularly so in matters related to disagreements as to the pertinence or implementation of BLP policy. And just what is so all-fired unique to this controversial edit that mandates an "expeditious path" anyway? Is the sky falling or sumpin'? If the RfC had been implemented when its use was first broached, it would have been halfway home by now. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:46, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- What's fairly unique is this: we have a consensus. We have editors blocking it ready to edit war. Allowing this to go on for a month, as with the usual length of an RfC, is just rewarding such tactics, which is all-too-often what happens around here (and then there would be ArbCom). I know you're one for proper process, so you'll understand why I don't like it. Be——Critical 21:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to bump it straight up to Arbcom I will second your report - If you assert it is no longer a content dispute and you allege some users are edit warring against consensus and obstructive you can take it to Arbcom as they don't judge content disputes but you appear to be asserting it is something else - Youreallycan 21:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would, but they demand diffs, and there aren't enough. Don't you think? Be——Critical 22:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your comments seems to warrant it - just go make your report and lets get it over with - the blogger link has been kept out of wikipedia for over five years, although users have repeatedly attempted to insert it to multiple articles, and clearly that is some kind of issue. Perhaps - opinionated users violating NPOV and users claiming a BLP exception for an external - start with that - I will support your opening and there will be time for us to present diffs as evidence, usually ten days. Youreallycan 22:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Eh, I've observed ArbCom enough to think that it wouldn't work properly. But if you want to file, I'll support you on the basis of needed policy clarification of (1) just how far we take the idea of eliminating harm per BLP and (2) whether external sites may dictate what content we put in articles. Policy clarification is within their prerogative. Be——Critical 22:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am happy with whatever keeps the blogger, attack, google bombing external out of the article and the whole project. Youreallycan 22:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- So, if the link gets put in, you will revert it back out? Be——Critical 23:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its not about me, is it > - I am unable to answer vague questions - I have alluded, more than once here ...? to my position that a policy driven assessment and an experienced and respected NPOV closer would be required for any close is my preference. Youreallycan 23:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, well it looks like neither of us really think this is currently ripe for ArbCom, so hopefully an RfC won't take too long. Be——Critical 00:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Its not about me, is it > - I am unable to answer vague questions - I have alluded, more than once here ...? to my position that a policy driven assessment and an experienced and respected NPOV closer would be required for any close is my preference. Youreallycan 23:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- So, if the link gets put in, you will revert it back out? Be——Critical 23:27, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I am happy with whatever keeps the blogger, attack, google bombing external out of the article and the whole project. Youreallycan 22:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Eh, I've observed ArbCom enough to think that it wouldn't work properly. But if you want to file, I'll support you on the basis of needed policy clarification of (1) just how far we take the idea of eliminating harm per BLP and (2) whether external sites may dictate what content we put in articles. Policy clarification is within their prerogative. Be——Critical 22:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Your comments seems to warrant it - just go make your report and lets get it over with - the blogger link has been kept out of wikipedia for over five years, although users have repeatedly attempted to insert it to multiple articles, and clearly that is some kind of issue. Perhaps - opinionated users violating NPOV and users claiming a BLP exception for an external - start with that - I will support your opening and there will be time for us to present diffs as evidence, usually ten days. Youreallycan 22:13, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- I would, but they demand diffs, and there aren't enough. Don't you think? Be——Critical 22:07, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to bump it straight up to Arbcom I will second your report - If you assert it is no longer a content dispute and you allege some users are edit warring against consensus and obstructive you can take it to Arbcom as they don't judge content disputes but you appear to be asserting it is something else - Youreallycan 21:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- What's fairly unique is this: we have a consensus. We have editors blocking it ready to edit war. Allowing this to go on for a month, as with the usual length of an RfC, is just rewarding such tactics, which is all-too-often what happens around here (and then there would be ArbCom). I know you're one for proper process, so you'll understand why I don't like it. Be——Critical 21:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Ask User:Sandstein to close it with a total mandate of acceptance of his judgment - I have no idea what he will say or even if he would be prepared to close and add the link if that was the close. Youreallycan 21:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Okay, on further consideration, Wikidemon is right about the edit request. If I were an admin I'd certainly consider it out of line. So, what's next? If this were a close issue, there would be more excuse for spending a lot of time at DR. Are there any fairly expeditious paths to take? Be——Critical 21:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Are you sure this is not a path that's open to us? The edit request template produces a box that reads (in part): "This template should be used only to request edits to fully protected pages that are either uncontroversial or supported by consensus." With 18 people now favoring inclusion and 6 opposed, I'd be surprised if the discussion here could be read by a neutral party as anything other than consensus. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Understood, but making an edit to a protected page is a use of the tools, so it's tantamount to an administrative ruling on where consensus lies and whether there is a policy prohibition that would trump consensus. Normally the protection is just used to stop edit wars and calm discussion, not to enforce the "right" result. I note that the currently protected version also omits a paragraph about "ricking", which was the subject of a new dispute and edit war. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- If an edit request results in an edit to the page and the page remains protected, there won't be a reversion. Additionally: there is now an additional !vote for inclusion] at the straw poll. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Although the exact setting is fairly unique, this is fundamentally no different than any other disagreement over policy interpretation and content, both of which are consensus matters. Policy is not up for debate, but interpretation of policy is something that we do on every page, constantly. Normally we would expect editors to work it out among themselves, and take a dim view of obstructionist tactics like edit warring, wikilawyering, assuming bad faith, and so on. As the term consensus is used on Wikipedia, there appears to be a consensus that this is not a BLP issue, and a further consensus that as an editorial matter we should stick with convention by including a link to the website that is the subject of the article. A vocal minority of editors disagrees and brings up policy and editorial arguments for their position. Both sides argue that policy and consensus are on their side, and the minority seems content to edit war the article to the point of page protection to keep the status quo. Under the circumstances, making an edit that is certain to provoke a reversion is a pointless escalation. So there appears to be a stalemate. There are dispute resolution means available (including some opportunities for reconsideration), so that's the sensible way to deal with it. Those means will eventually produce an answer that will disappoint one side or the other, or both. At that point the result gets declared, and we're expected to respect that decision whether we agree with it or not. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Neither of you have any idea of what consensus is; on top of that this is not a consensus issue, it is a BLP issue. This is not a race, let the process work itself out and go work on something else. Arzel (talk) 19:29, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Personally, I think an RfC is the surest and most straightforward way to resolve this. ArbCom could take the case but I doubt they will, as they would see it primarily as a content dispute. No harm in asking, I guess, but for now nobody is behaving badly and admins aren't abusing any tools. Now if some of y'all could start misbehaving or harassing each other we might generate a case. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- But what is to stop people like YRC from declaring -- whatever the results of the RfC -- that there's "no consensus" and then resuming the edit-war to remove the link? We have a perfectly clear result on this talk-page -- how will an RfC be different in terms of providing resolution (assuming, for example, that the weight of opinion is similar)? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Personally, I think an RfC is the surest and most straightforward way to resolve this. ArbCom could take the case but I doubt they will, as they would see it primarily as a content dispute. No harm in asking, I guess, but for now nobody is behaving badly and admins aren't abusing any tools. Now if some of y'all could start misbehaving or harassing each other we might generate a case. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:43, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
It's unlikely that it will have a different result than you describe. However, that's when we can go to ArbCom, and also they can clarify policy, if we can give them a clearcut question. And this is the reason to expedite the RfC, we don't want a process which will likely only lead to a blockade to take forever. I would suggest 3 days or a week for the RfC unless there's no obvious consensus. I'd like to get an early close established beforehand if possible. I also want to try and make sure it's not just voting, but that's difficult. Be——Critical 07:40, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Just some thoughts. I'd oppose a rushed RfC or a mandated early close, though would accept an early close if the closer/s deemed it appropriate once the RfC is under way. There are two disputes: the verb and the link. Shall we ask for comment on both, separately, in the same RfC? (I'm against one and for the other.) The RfC could ask: "Should the article link to spreading santorum.com in the external links section?" and "Should the article mention Savage's proposed new meaning for "to rick?", with an agreed summary of the issues. Can we decide on a closer/closers ahead of the RfC? (Maybe ask them to watch the proceedings and redact any incivility and off-topic content?) If yes to the last, can everybody throw a number of names up and let's see if there's consensus on one or more candidate closers before we approach anybody. I propose Risker (talk · contribs) and NuclearWarfare (talk · contribs) if they could be persuaded (and I know they've both got a lot on); and Manning Bartlett (talk · contribs) whom I don't know well but is making sense on ANI at the moment. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- If this is the direction we're headed: the two issues absolutely need to be dealt with separately, and the EL needs dealing with first (the "rick" business was raised after the EL discussion was well under way). Also: No to NW, but the other two are fine. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Although I'm not an RfC expert, my impression is that the participants don't get to stipulate any special rules or schedule, or appoint the closer. We just go through the process. The best we can do is try to make as clear and neutral a setup as possible, and encourage the discussion to stay on track and not devolve into name calling, procedural wrangling, or tangential issues. The "rick" thing ought to be covered too in the name of efficiency but multiple issues and multiple outcomes ought to be delineated carefully beforehand because otherwise it's hard to tease the real issues out of the inevitable slew of comments and endorsements. - Wikidemon (talk) 11:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I confess I haven't read the RfC policy, but I've participated in a couple. I'm not bothered whether the two disputes are dealt with concurrently or in sequence. It's a shame we can't choose our closers; it seemed like a good idea to me. And having them impose WP:CIVIL and WP:TALK would be great. I'm so sick of these brawls.
- Although I'm not an RfC expert, my impression is that the participants don't get to stipulate any special rules or schedule, or appoint the closer. We just go through the process. The best we can do is try to make as clear and neutral a setup as possible, and encourage the discussion to stay on track and not devolve into name calling, procedural wrangling, or tangential issues. The "rick" thing ought to be covered too in the name of efficiency but multiple issues and multiple outcomes ought to be delineated carefully beforehand because otherwise it's hard to tease the real issues out of the inevitable slew of comments and endorsements. - Wikidemon (talk) 11:24, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- If this is the direction we're headed: the two issues absolutely need to be dealt with separately, and the EL needs dealing with first (the "rick" business was raised after the EL discussion was well under way). Also: No to NW, but the other two are fine. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 10:12, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I completely agree that beautifully, concisely composed expositions of the various positions represented by the editors here would help. I think Tristan's made an excellent start here.
- If we could come up with a trio of editors that we all respect, I'd still like to hear their views before putting it to an RfC. What do you think? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 12:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I support ArbCom. Arzel (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- They usually prefer a dispute to go through RfC first. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Manning Bartlett, there's a section above on the RfC, with a nice summary already written[10]. Re closers, Risker might be fine. We will be able to tell a truly biased close. Or, if the close just says "Yes most people want the link, but BLP trumps them," or the more likely "Yes most people want the link but (Frummmmmm hummmm hummmm mmmmmmm rrrrr......) there isn't a consensus," then that's a case for ArbCom clarification or policy clarification. The link needs a separate RfC. I agree on hearing the opinions of editors first... but let's hurry up about it, since it probably won't do us any good. Be——Critical 17:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- They usually prefer a dispute to go through RfC first. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I support ArbCom. Arzel (talk) 14:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- So far as I know there's never been consensus not to include the link, including the link is appropriate per WP:EL, and there's consensus to include it now. We don't need arbitrators or some ad hoc star chamber to tell us that. Wnt (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- But we can't get the page unprotected so we can put the link in, and then see if anyone edit wars and then go to ArbCom. So what to do? Be——Critical 18:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I really wish you people would stop saying there is consensus when there is not consensus. Arzel (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Why do you say there isn't a consensus? Be——Critical 19:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- Because there is no consensus, and it is getting quite annoying that you can Nomo keep crying that some people are blocking consensus. Some of us have serious concerns about BLP issues in that the website you seem hell bent on including is nothing more than an attack site. It serves no value other than to further the attack on Rick Santorum. All pertenant information from that site is already included in the article, and I and others feel that the only reason some are so hell bent on including the link is to further promote Savage's smear campaign against Santorum. Arzel (talk) 06:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you have concerns, which the community has addressed and rejected as valid but inadequate. That's the consensus process. You have the right to accept the current consensus, or to seek a wider consensus, but saying it isn't consensus is just refusing to acknowledge the fact. Acting on such a refusal (by edit warring for example) would be disruption, which is why we could take it to ArbCom. Read this. Be——Critical 06:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- There is no current consensus, and it is clear that you have no idea was consensus is. Arzel (talk) 14:35, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- In an AfD with 18 people voting to delete and 6 people voting to keep, an admin would inevitably close it as consensus to delete. The problem here isn't lack of consensus as that term is implemented at Wikipedia; the problem is lack of a useful process for these circumstances. This will be dealt with. 143.210.79.229 (talk) 16:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- BC and the IP editor (who forgot to log in?) are right. This situation arises often in BLP and also NONFREE. Consensus is what the community decides, including community decisions on how to apply policy in a given situation. Edit warring in support of a personal minority interpretation of policy is a form of disruption that can require administrative intervention. Edit warring under claim of BLP is like shooting someone in self defense, not something you want to do if you can avoid it. If you happen to be right it's an exoneration, but if you're mistaken in your judgment you go to jail. Wikidemon (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'll add that this is right as well. "It's a BLP problem" only works when there's a widely shared view that there's a BLP problem. When that view is rejected by the community, a small minority is not somehow exempt from the requirement not to edit-war. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:58, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- So there's a consensus that there is a consensus. The choice is between: unprotect ---> insert link ---> ArbCom (if edit war) and RfC ---> insert link (maybe) ---> ArbCom (if edit war). That right? What shall we actually do? I have a feeling some people don't really want to proceed with the RfC option. Be——Critical 18:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- (ec with comment immediately below) I would say it's unprotect --> insert link --> edit war (likely) --> AN/I --> SNAFU versus RfC --> insert link (likely) --> edit war (unlikely) --> editors blocked. ArbCom isn't going to decide whether the link should be in or where consensus lies, they can only decide whether it's a decision for the community to make. An RfC, by contrast, can decide all of these. We don't have to agree to an RfC (though that would be nice), someone just has to do it. Another thing mitigating against unprotecting before consensus is made official is that it's almost certain to lead to an edit war, and nobody from the unprotecting admin on down to the people making those threats ought to be precipitating an edit war. People can opt out of an RfC if they want, it just means they lose their chance to be heard. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Okay. Be——Critical 18:48, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- (ec with comment immediately below) I would say it's unprotect --> insert link --> edit war (likely) --> AN/I --> SNAFU versus RfC --> insert link (likely) --> edit war (unlikely) --> editors blocked. ArbCom isn't going to decide whether the link should be in or where consensus lies, they can only decide whether it's a decision for the community to make. An RfC, by contrast, can decide all of these. We don't have to agree to an RfC (though that would be nice), someone just has to do it. Another thing mitigating against unprotecting before consensus is made official is that it's almost certain to lead to an edit war, and nobody from the unprotecting admin on down to the people making those threats ought to be precipitating an edit war. People can opt out of an RfC if they want, it just means they lose their chance to be heard. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- So there's a consensus that there is a consensus. The choice is between: unprotect ---> insert link ---> ArbCom (if edit war) and RfC ---> insert link (maybe) ---> ArbCom (if edit war). That right? What shall we actually do? I have a feeling some people don't really want to proceed with the RfC option. Be——Critical 18:32, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- I'll add that this is right as well. "It's a BLP problem" only works when there's a widely shared view that there's a BLP problem. When that view is rejected by the community, a small minority is not somehow exempt from the requirement not to edit-war. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:58, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- BC and the IP editor (who forgot to log in?) are right. This situation arises often in BLP and also NONFREE. Consensus is what the community decides, including community decisions on how to apply policy in a given situation. Edit warring in support of a personal minority interpretation of policy is a form of disruption that can require administrative intervention. Edit warring under claim of BLP is like shooting someone in self defense, not something you want to do if you can avoid it. If you happen to be right it's an exoneration, but if you're mistaken in your judgment you go to jail. Wikidemon (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- In an AfD with 18 people voting to delete and 6 people voting to keep, an admin would inevitably close it as consensus to delete. The problem here isn't lack of consensus as that term is implemented at Wikipedia; the problem is lack of a useful process for these circumstances. This will be dealt with. 143.210.79.229 (talk) 16:13, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- There is no current consensus, and it is clear that you have no idea was consensus is. Arzel (talk) 14:35, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, you have concerns, which the community has addressed and rejected as valid but inadequate. That's the consensus process. You have the right to accept the current consensus, or to seek a wider consensus, but saying it isn't consensus is just refusing to acknowledge the fact. Acting on such a refusal (by edit warring for example) would be disruption, which is why we could take it to ArbCom. Read this. Be——Critical 06:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Because there is no consensus, and it is getting quite annoying that you can Nomo keep crying that some people are blocking consensus. Some of us have serious concerns about BLP issues in that the website you seem hell bent on including is nothing more than an attack site. It serves no value other than to further the attack on Rick Santorum. All pertenant information from that site is already included in the article, and I and others feel that the only reason some are so hell bent on including the link is to further promote Savage's smear campaign against Santorum. Arzel (talk) 06:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Why do you say there isn't a consensus? Be——Critical 19:31, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- I really wish you people would stop saying there is consensus when there is not consensus. Arzel (talk) 19:11, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
- But we can't get the page unprotected so we can put the link in, and then see if anyone edit wars and then go to ArbCom. So what to do? Be——Critical 18:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
(od) We can not use WP:CONSENSUS to violate WP:BLP. The concept that a majority can decree that the minority is wrong is not found in WP:BLP nor is it found in WP:CONSENSUS, so tthat argument fails mightily. The choice is either to violate WP:BLP or to follow it. I suggest that this is not a "choice" at all -- we are obligated to follow the requirements of WP:BLP. Cheers - and let's drop the "we will all spend years before ArbCom" arguments! Collect (talk) 18:38, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- That's not the consensus. The consensus is that the above minority interpretation of BLP is invalid. You are arguing that your interpretation of BLP trumps consensus. Be——Critical 18:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Per the advice here from the admin who protected it, I am proceeding with an RfC. At least that way we can expect someone to "close" it -- something that unfortunately wasn't forthcoming with the straw poll and discussion above. I believe strongly that it should deal only with the EL question; trying to discuss two contentious issues at once will prevent gaining clarity on either of them. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
RfC
Following a very long discussion (and straw poll) above, the question here is whether to include Dan Savage's "Spreading santorum" website as an external link for this page. Some people believe that it is a BLP violation, while others reject that view and believe that it is a proper EL and even belongs here per WP:ELOFFICIAL. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:54, 1 February 2012 (UTC)