JakeInJoisey (usurped) (talk | contribs) m →DISPUTE - NPOV - Santorum interview: format |
|||
Line 447: | Line 447: | ||
::::Why on the right? Because all new and unfamiliar words start out on the right. [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 23:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC) |
::::Why on the right? Because all new and unfamiliar words start out on the right. [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 23:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC) |
||
:::::Huh? Why are you inserting discussion here that is unrelated to this thread? Strange. [[User:JakeInJoisey|JakeInJoisey]] ([[User talk:JakeInJoisey|talk]]) 23:48, 13 July 2011 (UTC) |
:::::Huh? Why are you inserting discussion here that is unrelated to this thread? Strange. [[User:JakeInJoisey|JakeInJoisey]] ([[User talk:JakeInJoisey|talk]]) 23:48, 13 July 2011 (UTC) |
||
::::::I thought it would be clear, but my point is, certain organizations try to make "vulgar language" something you would get in trouble for using. "Santorum" is not among such terms. Anywhere you can say "feces mixed with lube" (which is not vulgar either), you can say "santorum". Therefore, santorum is not vulgar. [[User:Wnt|Wnt]] ([[User talk:Wnt|talk]]) 05:19, 14 July 2011 (UTC) |
|||
== <s>Culling</s> The first paragraph lead (More) == |
== <s>Culling</s> The first paragraph lead (More) == |
Revision as of 05:19, 14 July 2011
![]() | Campaign for the neologism "santorum" was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Should the article assert as fact that the term is "vulgar"?
In the #Introduction thread above, there was a long discussion in which several of us stated the reasons not to assert as fact that the term is "vulgar". There were edits to the article in which other terms were used. It said "sex-related" at the time Slim Virgin substituted her rewrite -- a rewrite that had taken the prior "vulgar" but that didn't reflect any of the subsequent discussion or edits. When I changed this one word to the version that had been in place before Slim Virgin's substitution, it was reverted.
So, what's the deal here -- the whole Wikipedia process of discussing on the talk page, and edits trying different versions, is irrelevant? Maybe it's because those of us who don't want to see the whole article deleted are among those editors who, in the opinion of some, are never to be taken seriously again, so everything we do can be ignored.
I just can't understand why, on what's probably the most contentious article in Wikipedia at this time, people feel free to so egregiously disregard process. This attitude is unhelpful, to say the least.
Do we need to run a separate straw poll just on whether to call this "vulgar"? JamesMLane t c 21:28, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Vulgar's not a good word for it. If by "vulgar" we mean that the term is offensive or nasty, that's poorly sourced, imprecise, and POV. If by vulgar we mean involving body functions, that's an oddly archaic phrasing and could be mistaken for the first meaning. Either way, no go. Sexual, sex-related, even derogatory all work without the POV. I wouldn't hold up SV's other changes on account of this one issue, but at this point I don't think there's consensus to call it "vulgar", something we can address now or later. - Wikidemon (talk) 21:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- @Wikidemon, how is it derogatory? That would be POV it seems. Anyways, --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Vulgar and sex-related do not have the same meaning entirely, nor do they have the same force when used in a similar way. IMO, vulgar is much more precise here because the definition provided on Savage's website is offensive to almost everyone, even those who are amused by it or otherwise support the attack on Santorum. What do the sources say ... and no I don't simply mean what did Savage say he set out to do/ Savage does not get to dictate whether or not the definition he picked for santorum is "vulgar." So what do other sources say? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 21:48, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- @Griswaldo, How is it offensive? That seems POV as well, but I agree that we should mirror what RS call it. --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- One of Flatterworld's (now stricken) messages above includes a couple dictionary definitions, "Lacking sophistication or good taste; unrefined", and "making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude". Another online dictionary has further definitions (I paraphrase some): "Crudely indecent", "deficient in taste", "marked by a lack of good breeding; boorish", "Offensively excessive in self-display or expenditure", "spoken by or in the manner of the common people", "associated with the common masses".[1] The fact that there are so many definitions and it is not clear which one is meant here makes the word imprecise. Some things they all have in common are that they are: (1) negative; (2) statements of judgment and opinion; and (3) for the most part, expressing that something is offensive. Not that it has offended, but that we judge it to be offensive. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:20, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- @Griswaldo, How is it offensive? That seems POV as well, but I agree that we should mirror what RS call it. --Threeafterthree (talk) 22:10, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that the use of the word "vulgar" in the article is a bit archaic and confusing. I imagine that SV meant vulgar to mean as related to bodily functions but at least two editors just in this section have interpreted it to mean "offensive". It seems to be a case of false precision. One connotation of the word is directly matched to the intent of the text but many other connotations can be inferred without much trouble, clouding the meaning. Protonk (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Vulgar is the correct word to use. I don't see it as being POV it adequately describes the 'earthy humor' of the joke. As for being 'offensive' wasn't that the point of it? John lilburne (talk) 22:25, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Of course that was the point of it. I am, quite frankly flabbergasted by the continued efforts here to make a subject that was intended to be offensive and intended to have negative consequences into something "neutral." WP:NPOV is not a policy that demands us to describe things in a manner that is more neutral than they actually are. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- NPOV requires the same level of neutrality no matter what the subject matter. We're not trying to paint either Santorum's anti-gay statements or Savage's response as either wonderful or terrible. We're simply saying what happened. If anybody is going to call the other vulgar, disreputable, offensive, etc., in the article it would have to be an attributed statement of due weight by someone relevant to the situation. It's not Wikipedia's job to take offense. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Surely one doesn't leave one's common sense at the door when entering this site, are we supposed to believe Santorum should be thanking Savage for google bombing him in such a complimentary manner? John lilburne (talk) 23:29, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, according to the last sentence in the article, yes. Protonk (talk) 00:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Strange! It doesn't read as if he's saying that Savage is make complimentary comments about him, quite the reverse. John lilburne (talk) 00:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Wikidemon as I stated already, we should go by what the sources say. However, if someone's intent is malice or to attack someone else, and that is reported in reliable sources we certainly report it here. If the effect of something is to offend people, and again that is reported in sources we certainly report it here. That is what saying what happened is about after all. You appear to want to change our policies when it comes to reporting the effect that something has on people, claiming that by stating such things a normally reliable source becomes unreliable. Say what? I don't think so. No one has said that it is our job to take offense, so please spare us the straw men. It is also not our job to advocate for our personal political POVs. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 00:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- You're invited to read it again at your leisure. Protonk (talk) 00:39, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Current policy (and common sense) dictate that we can't state value judgments about things as facts. If a reliable source contains opinion, that does not mean we adopt that opinion. You're missing something extremely obvious, that face you every time you read any source. Some parts of the source are analysis and assertions of fact, which the source serves to validate. Other parts of a source are not assertions of fact and with those we don't try to pick potatoes out of a cornfield. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry but I'm not missing anything. You're wildly wrong if you think there are bright lines between what you seem to consider assertions of "fact" and "value judgments." If it is normative, within a given society, to consider a certain type of word "obscene" or "vulgar" then that is itself a social fact. You might say that calling boxing a "violent" sport is a "value judgement," but to most people it is a simple statement of fact. That violence is a part of boxing, can be considered factual if reliable sources repeat the claim. The same goes for vulgarity or obscenity. Everyone will not agree (and indeed that's true about everything), but the social norms dictate how we classify expressions like these. There is nothing contra policy in that view either, since social norms will also be reflected in reliable sources, and here at Wikipedia we count on those sources first and foremost. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- The proposition you're arguing is an extreme one not embraced by the encyclopedia. As far as I know Wikipedia does distinguish between facts and opinions, following the sources on facts, and reporting opinions as such. There are many fuzzy and uncertain lines in the world but that does not preclude making distinctions. We certainly don't elevate social norms (whose social norms would we choose?) to to a pronouncement that some things are objectively obscene and others not. If the weight of reliable sources says that something is a social norm, and it is relevant and of due weight, we could report that it is a social norm. That's as far as we go. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry but I'm not missing anything. You're wildly wrong if you think there are bright lines between what you seem to consider assertions of "fact" and "value judgments." If it is normative, within a given society, to consider a certain type of word "obscene" or "vulgar" then that is itself a social fact. You might say that calling boxing a "violent" sport is a "value judgement," but to most people it is a simple statement of fact. That violence is a part of boxing, can be considered factual if reliable sources repeat the claim. The same goes for vulgarity or obscenity. Everyone will not agree (and indeed that's true about everything), but the social norms dictate how we classify expressions like these. There is nothing contra policy in that view either, since social norms will also be reflected in reliable sources, and here at Wikipedia we count on those sources first and foremost. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 04:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Current policy (and common sense) dictate that we can't state value judgments about things as facts. If a reliable source contains opinion, that does not mean we adopt that opinion. You're missing something extremely obvious, that face you every time you read any source. Some parts of the source are analysis and assertions of fact, which the source serves to validate. Other parts of a source are not assertions of fact and with those we don't try to pick potatoes out of a cornfield. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Strange! It doesn't read as if he's saying that Savage is make complimentary comments about him, quite the reverse. John lilburne (talk) 00:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Well, according to the last sentence in the article, yes. Protonk (talk) 00:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Surely one doesn't leave one's common sense at the door when entering this site, are we supposed to believe Santorum should be thanking Savage for google bombing him in such a complimentary manner? John lilburne (talk) 23:29, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- NPOV requires the same level of neutrality no matter what the subject matter. We're not trying to paint either Santorum's anti-gay statements or Savage's response as either wonderful or terrible. We're simply saying what happened. If anybody is going to call the other vulgar, disreputable, offensive, etc., in the article it would have to be an attributed statement of due weight by someone relevant to the situation. It's not Wikipedia's job to take offense. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Of course that was the point of it. I am, quite frankly flabbergasted by the continued efforts here to make a subject that was intended to be offensive and intended to have negative consequences into something "neutral." WP:NPOV is not a policy that demands us to describe things in a manner that is more neutral than they actually are. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Do reliable sources describe it as vulgar? Tarc (talk) 22:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Reliable sources say a number of things, but to the extent they voice opinions about how crude and unsavory something is they are not being reliable. We can source the fact that someone has an opinion, but we don't look to sources for an opinion for Wikipedia to endorse. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Really. That seems to be quite the 180° from what you...and I, for that matter...say when we argue to keep the "conspiracy theory" aspect of Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories in the article. Reliable sources describe it that way, so the Wikipedia does as well. Tarc (talk) 23:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think the bigger issue than hypocrisy (because honestly everything is a bigger issue) is the myriad opinions available and the necessity of choosing only one word. The worry is that editors may characterize the campaign as "vulgar" and then seek support in some sources. Which they will find because vulgar is among the words used by sources to characterize the campaign. I don't know of a complete solution to the problem, but we ought to acknowledge it. Protonk (talk) 23:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- No hypocrisy at all. You'll find that I consistently oppose and remove words that express opinions about things. When Wikipedia says that something is sad, fortunate, worrying, surprising, unexpected, unknown, unfortunate, perplexing, confusing, shocking, etc., it's got to go, because those are all expressions of opinion. Calling something a conspiracy theory is not a statement of opinion (and if it were, it should not be in the encyclopedia). It's an analysis about the nature of the thing. It is a defined term that the thing fits. No, we do not use reliable sources in that way. Sources verify facts, they do not endorse opinions. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- If we use the word "vulgar," it has to have a reliable source. What reliable source are people proffering? BE——Critical__Talk 04:12, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- No hypocrisy at all. You'll find that I consistently oppose and remove words that express opinions about things. When Wikipedia says that something is sad, fortunate, worrying, surprising, unexpected, unknown, unfortunate, perplexing, confusing, shocking, etc., it's got to go, because those are all expressions of opinion. Calling something a conspiracy theory is not a statement of opinion (and if it were, it should not be in the encyclopedia). It's an analysis about the nature of the thing. It is a defined term that the thing fits. No, we do not use reliable sources in that way. Sources verify facts, they do not endorse opinions. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think the bigger issue than hypocrisy (because honestly everything is a bigger issue) is the myriad opinions available and the necessity of choosing only one word. The worry is that editors may characterize the campaign as "vulgar" and then seek support in some sources. Which they will find because vulgar is among the words used by sources to characterize the campaign. I don't know of a complete solution to the problem, but we ought to acknowledge it. Protonk (talk) 23:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Really. That seems to be quite the 180° from what you...and I, for that matter...say when we argue to keep the "conspiracy theory" aspect of Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories in the article. Reliable sources describe it that way, so the Wikipedia does as well. Tarc (talk) 23:34, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
- Reliable sources say a number of things, but to the extent they voice opinions about how crude and unsavory something is they are not being reliable. We can source the fact that someone has an opinion, but we don't look to sources for an opinion for Wikipedia to endorse. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:13, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
My primary complaint about the use of the word "vulgar" in the lede is that it violates "show don't tell". If, in the proper course of the article, we explain exactly what was meant by santorum, then the reader may judge for themselves whether or not that is "vulgar", "obscene", "hilarious" or some other adjective. It serves no useful purpose to announce an opinion on the nature of the neologism at the start of the article. Protonk (talk) 04:47, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oh now I get it we should present 'santorum' as if it was pretty much like 'slut', 'twink', 'dildo', or 'chickenhawk'. 07:00, 23 June 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by John lilburne (talk • contribs)
@Protonk and Wikidemon. My primary complaint is that you all seem to want to remove a layer of meaning from this term by erasing it's classification and social function. This term was meant to be obscene. Savage himself said: "There's no better way to memorialize the Santorum scandal than by attaching his name to a sex act that would make his big, white teeth fall out of his big, empty head." What kind of sex-act would do such a thing? A highly obscene one would. Savage got this right, and the manner in which "santorum" functions to elicit all of the reactions it gets is as an obscenity. Whether people laugh at it, are offended by it, or are angered by its existence they are so because it is an obscenity. That is a basic social fact, and not simply a matter of "opinion" or a "value judgement." Language does not exist in a vacuum, it exists within a social context. Sanitizing the presentation of an obscenity by calling it something else does our readers a complete disservice because it damages their understanding of what this term is. I'm sick and tired of these arguments which sound like Wikilawyering to serve an ideological purpose to me, as opposed to arguments which aim to help our readers understand the subject matter.Griswaldo (talk) 11:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- You understand the difference between calling a word an "obscenity" and saying something is "obscene", right? If someone bumps their head and yells "shit", they're yelling an obscenity. However, they're not saying anything obscene. "Obscenity" is a specific class of word that can be objectively defined, and "vulgarity" is a similar but perhaps broader category. Both can be ambiguous because they have other meanings as well that are defined by community values. It's not wikilawyering to say we shouldn't write articles from the point of view of the values of one community or another. - Wikidemon (talk) 12:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- What on earth are you going on about now? Please consult dictionaries before making claims about the meaning of words from now on please because it will save others the wasted time and the frustration. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "obscenity" thus (emphasis added): "The character or quality of being offensively indecent, lewdness; an instance of this, esp. an obscene expression. If a word is an obscenity it is an "obscene word." If someone is yelling an obscenity they are by definition saying something obscene. The community in question, is the global English speaking community, for which we write and from which we get most of our reliable sources. The issue at hand is not about "values" but basic "comprehension." That entire community understands a word with a meaning like "santorum" to be an obscenity. How individuals in the community feel about obscenities, or how they feel about that obscenity is irrelevant. They understand that it functions in a manner that is lewd and offensive to others. Indeed it wouldn't be funny to anyone if it didn't, it would offend anyone if it didn't, and it wouldn't anger anyone if it didn't. I'm sorry for calling your failed attempts at sophistry, "Wikilawyering," maybe there are better descriptors. Now I've repeated myself once again. Go ahead and have the last word.Griswaldo (talk) 13:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Obscene" has a specific legal meaning in the states. That is what Wikidemon is getting at. I don't worry too much about using words where the connotation is benign but a denotation may be a term of art, but amidst all the constant complaining that the article itself represents some legal liability it doesn't hurt to be cautious. On other lines I think you are getting entirely too worked up about this. Don't be "sorry" for calling out Wikidemon, just resist the temptation. You aren't going to "win" (neither is he) and all that will happen is fatigue will set in for the rest of us--if it hasn't already. Please play a part in toning down the rhetoric rather than ratcheting it up. Protonk (talk) 14:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- 1) You may be right about what he meant, but he never made that clear. 2) In US legal usage "obscene (acts)" and "obscenity" are synonymous (see Obscenity#United States obscenity law), so either you are wrong about what he meant or again Wikidemon doesn't know what he is talking about. 3) As the obscenity article makes clear the legal rationale for what is or is not "obscene" is the same as the socioliguistic one - social normativity. I may very well be worked up about this, but what I'm worked up about is keeping the encyclopedia from the taint of real world political mudslinging. I think getting worked up about protecting our reputation as a reliable, neutral and informative reference work is something that more people around here could stand getting worked up about. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- And another critical component of the legal definition of "obscenity" is the fact that there are very few broad "social norms" for what is considered obscene speech. I'm not interested in getting into the difference between "obscene" and "obscenity" (I doubt there is much daylight between the two terms), but the fact remains that we should probably steer clear of any terms which have obvious legal meanings. And please, please understand that those of us on the other side of the debate care deeply about wikipedia's reputation as a neutral and reliable reference work. We (or at least I) feel that the use of BLP to gut or delete otherwise neutral and factual articles is a direct impingement upon the encyclopedia's reputation for neutrality and fairness. Consequently you might understand our frustration with the drumbeat of comments coming from a purported moral high ground. A better answer is to try and engage as dispassionately as possible. Protonk (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that we ought to look at the subject we are covering dispassionately, but what we should never do is to fashion non-neutral subjects into neutral sounding ones. The current discussion is not about deleting or gutting the entry. In fact, ironically perhaps, it is about keeping an additional phrase in the entry because it provides additional information. What really frustrates me is hearing people argue that we shouldn't be removing valuable information ... unless its information of a certain kind. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- The current discussion is a proxy fight over the tone of the article, I'll agree with you there. It is also nearly meritless (the dispute itself over the single word, not the discussion). But I'm not so blind as to imagine that all of the words spilled on this talk page are about adjusting tone in order to match a "non-neutral subject". I'm also totally uninterested in the preservation of information. What matters in cases where BLP clashes with other guiding principles of the encyclopedia is that we have the courage and honesty to engage in a serious discussion about how best to weigh our competing moral imperatives. In this case that means fighting over the content (and yes, existence) of the article. Unfortunately that means getting into small disputes like this because the alternative is simply ignoring this page and hoping for the best only to return weeks later to find that those folks who stuck around to fight the small battles won the big ones by default because everyone else gave up. Protonk (talk) 14:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- (ecXn) I know this subject pretty well. As a matter of definition there is a difference between obscenity or vulgarity as shorthand for a dirty word, and the notion of something being obscene or vulgar meaning to be being outside of the pale of human decency (or as Protonk just pointed out, legality). Calling something "obscene" or "vulgar" in the latter sense is an expression of contempt or disgust. Protonk's observation is an interesting one. Why are we spilling so many words over the abstract question of whether we can use loaded words like "vulgar" or "obscene" to describe the subject of an article, when (AFAIK) nobody has even proposed a reliable source for the description? I think it is a matter of tone, and a problem with SV's otherwise excellent rewrite. By starting off calling Santorum a vulgar neologism, the article adopts the point of view of an unspecified community whose norms are offended. It sounds like starting an article by saying that Gilbert Gottfried is a "rude" commedian, Katy Perry is an "annoying" singer, or eating chicken with a spork is "unacceptable" manners. - Wikidemon (talk) 15:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- The current discussion is a proxy fight over the tone of the article, I'll agree with you there. It is also nearly meritless (the dispute itself over the single word, not the discussion). But I'm not so blind as to imagine that all of the words spilled on this talk page are about adjusting tone in order to match a "non-neutral subject". I'm also totally uninterested in the preservation of information. What matters in cases where BLP clashes with other guiding principles of the encyclopedia is that we have the courage and honesty to engage in a serious discussion about how best to weigh our competing moral imperatives. In this case that means fighting over the content (and yes, existence) of the article. Unfortunately that means getting into small disputes like this because the alternative is simply ignoring this page and hoping for the best only to return weeks later to find that those folks who stuck around to fight the small battles won the big ones by default because everyone else gave up. Protonk (talk) 14:44, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I agree that we ought to look at the subject we are covering dispassionately, but what we should never do is to fashion non-neutral subjects into neutral sounding ones. The current discussion is not about deleting or gutting the entry. In fact, ironically perhaps, it is about keeping an additional phrase in the entry because it provides additional information. What really frustrates me is hearing people argue that we shouldn't be removing valuable information ... unless its information of a certain kind. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- And another critical component of the legal definition of "obscenity" is the fact that there are very few broad "social norms" for what is considered obscene speech. I'm not interested in getting into the difference between "obscene" and "obscenity" (I doubt there is much daylight between the two terms), but the fact remains that we should probably steer clear of any terms which have obvious legal meanings. And please, please understand that those of us on the other side of the debate care deeply about wikipedia's reputation as a neutral and reliable reference work. We (or at least I) feel that the use of BLP to gut or delete otherwise neutral and factual articles is a direct impingement upon the encyclopedia's reputation for neutrality and fairness. Consequently you might understand our frustration with the drumbeat of comments coming from a purported moral high ground. A better answer is to try and engage as dispassionately as possible. Protonk (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- 1) You may be right about what he meant, but he never made that clear. 2) In US legal usage "obscene (acts)" and "obscenity" are synonymous (see Obscenity#United States obscenity law), so either you are wrong about what he meant or again Wikidemon doesn't know what he is talking about. 3) As the obscenity article makes clear the legal rationale for what is or is not "obscene" is the same as the socioliguistic one - social normativity. I may very well be worked up about this, but what I'm worked up about is keeping the encyclopedia from the taint of real world political mudslinging. I think getting worked up about protecting our reputation as a reliable, neutral and informative reference work is something that more people around here could stand getting worked up about. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 14:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Obscene" has a specific legal meaning in the states. That is what Wikidemon is getting at. I don't worry too much about using words where the connotation is benign but a denotation may be a term of art, but amidst all the constant complaining that the article itself represents some legal liability it doesn't hurt to be cautious. On other lines I think you are getting entirely too worked up about this. Don't be "sorry" for calling out Wikidemon, just resist the temptation. You aren't going to "win" (neither is he) and all that will happen is fatigue will set in for the rest of us--if it hasn't already. Please play a part in toning down the rhetoric rather than ratcheting it up. Protonk (talk) 14:03, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- What on earth are you going on about now? Please consult dictionaries before making claims about the meaning of words from now on please because it will save others the wasted time and the frustration. The Oxford English Dictionary defines "obscenity" thus (emphasis added): "The character or quality of being offensively indecent, lewdness; an instance of this, esp. an obscene expression. If a word is an obscenity it is an "obscene word." If someone is yelling an obscenity they are by definition saying something obscene. The community in question, is the global English speaking community, for which we write and from which we get most of our reliable sources. The issue at hand is not about "values" but basic "comprehension." That entire community understands a word with a meaning like "santorum" to be an obscenity. How individuals in the community feel about obscenities, or how they feel about that obscenity is irrelevant. They understand that it functions in a manner that is lewd and offensive to others. Indeed it wouldn't be funny to anyone if it didn't, it would offend anyone if it didn't, and it wouldn't anger anyone if it didn't. I'm sorry for calling your failed attempts at sophistry, "Wikilawyering," maybe there are better descriptors. Now I've repeated myself once again. Go ahead and have the last word.Griswaldo (talk) 13:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think that "sex-related" is more accurate, as the primary sources for the beginning of the campaign clearly state that was the goal. "Vulgar" is an opinion that was later hung on it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- "primary sources for the beginning of the campaign clearly state that was the goal", is the POV of one significant view, we need to cover all significant views. Not just what Savage purportedly claims. Dreadstar ☥ 22:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Use our sources properly (primary source never says 'vulgar'), secondary sources might
- May 15, 2003 (a reader suggests an idea)
- I'm a 23-year-old gay male who's been following the Rick Santorum scandal, and I have a proposal. Washington and the press seem content to let Santorum's comments fade into political oblivion, so I say the gay community should welcome this "inclusive" man with open arms. That's right; if Rick Santorum wants to invite himself into the bedrooms of gays and lesbians (and their dogs), I say we "include" him in our sex lives--by naming a gay sex act after him.
- (signed) Sex and Rick Santorum
- Minor quibbles aside, SARS, I love your suggestion. There's no better way to memorialize the Santorum scandal than by attaching his name to a sex act that would make his big, white teeth fall out of his big, empty head.
- May 29, 2003 (another reader comes up with The idea)
- While I agree with the spirit of naming something objectionable (to him) after Rick Santorum, I think it should be a substance, not an act. I would never want to "santorum" anyone I liked. What a turnoff. Instead, I think it would be better to name some kind of sexual byproduct after him.
- (signed) Wipe Up That Santorum, Anal Pokers
- June 12, 2003 (Dan Savage announces a winner)
- ....Since people don't discuss santorum even with people they've covered with santorum, getting the word into general use is going to be tricky. I'm willing to do my part, however: Please send me your santorum-related questions and/or santorum-related memories and I'll do a column or two on santorum. This will not only help to get the word out and into general use, but also help break the silence about santorum.
(the preceding is an unsigned comment) I have found multiple sources calling this term vulgar - including one we use in the article already. The lead of the huffington post article is "Nothing more vulgar than Santorum himself" [2], which indirectly implies that, though less vulgar, the term itself is vulgar nonetheless. Besides that, a host of less reliable sources call it vulgar. Here is another reliable source that directly calls the term vulgar [3], [4], [5]. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- None so far. The first source does not call the term vulgar. The second only uses the word vulgar by way of quoting this article. The third contains the word only in a user comment, and the fourth is a user-submitted editorial and thus not a reliable source. - Wikidemon (talk) 13:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Edit conflict: that's what I was going to say. BE——Critical__Talk 13:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- ...but a "Primary Source" DOES say "vulgar"
I would appreciate any considerations on the following...
Per WP:Primary (emphasis mine)...
Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources, though primary sources are permitted if used carefully.
...and...
Deciding whether primary...sources are appropriate on any given occasion is a matter of common sense and good editorial judgment, and should be discussed on article talk pages.
This article is already replete with cited quotes from both Savage's attack and his victim...and rightly so. Under what WP:POLICY should the victim's widely reported and, as far as I can see, UNCHALLENGED observation,
The Internet allows for this type of vulgarity to circulate.
...be considered non-WP:RS or non-germane to a consideration of whether "vulgar" is an appropriately supported characterization after provision of a third-party WP:RS citation utilizing that characterization as well? JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- In other words, you propose to state Rick Santorum's claim, as fact, in Wikipedia's voice, in the lead. How neutral. Please don't do this again. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:52, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Bob Casey Jr., who was running against Santorum in Pennsylvania, returned Savage's campaign contribution, citing Savage's "vulgar" comments on his Santorum website as the reason. (Philadelphia Inquirer). Casey's comment was also quoted in the Washington Post, and in the Pittsburgh City Paper ("Larry Smar, spokesperson for the casey campaign, says that controversial and vulgar content in the column and on Savage's anti-Santorum Web site, www.spreadingsantorum.com, led to the decision to return the contribution.") [6] Savage quoted it in his blog: "Casey to Savage: You're Vulgar!" [7] and again here: [8]
- In the Philadelphia News again, the following day, "The Casey people decided that accepting money from the not always tasteful Savage who has a vulgar anti-Santorum Web site would cause more trouble than it was worth." [9].
- One of the judges of The American Dialect Society wrote, "The Most Outrageous category is tricky; we never agree whether it’s the word itself that’s outrageous (typically for having some vulgar element, as in 2003’s winner, cliterati, for ‘prominent feminists’) or the concept (as with 2002’s neuticles, ‘false testicles for neutered pets’). This year the strongest contender was santorum, defined (and heavily promoted) by sex writer Dan Savage — in a campaign to besmirch the name of right-wing Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum".
- The Register the other day spoke of Savage's "web-centered campaign to establish 'santorum' as a vulgar neologism". [10]
- The Communist People's World said: "Dan Savage's contest among his readers to create an alternate definition for "Santorum"- the results are too vulgar to print here ..." [11]
- If there is one thing the Communist party paper, Casey and Santorum agree on, it's that Savage's campaign is vulgar. I'm not saying it's the only word we can use, but vulgar is certainly used by sources across the political spectrum. --JN466 16:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- In other words, you propose to state Rick Santorum's claim, as fact, in Wikipedia's voice, in the lead.
- No, I'm proposing that WP:RS sourced content be appropriately incorporated into this article. I'm also suggesting that utilizing the characterization "vulgar" is supported under WP:POLICY. A WP:RS secondary source utilizing the characterization "vulgar" in referencing Savage's attack has been provided. That secondary source happens to mirror Santorum's widely reported (and, as far as I can see, undisputed) characterization of Savage's attack as "vulgar". That observations by Rick Santorum, as a "Primary Source", are not admissable (which was asserted earlier in this discussion) is simply, IMHO, wrong and demonstrably disregarded by a slew of QUOTES from both progenitor and victim. WP:PRIMARY does NOT preclude citing Santorum's observations so long as it is supported by the provision of "a secondary source". With that requisite proviso having been satisfied, Santorum's observations should be considered WP:RS legitimate and germane under WP:POLICY. That leaves us with "common sense and good editorial judgement" as to Santorum's (or Savage's for that matter) observations assuming both are legitimately categorized as "Primary Sources"...but I'm not confident that's valid here anyway.
- As to...
- How neutral.
- I'll simply observe that your ardor for WP:NPOV is rather conspicuosly MIA inre Santorum's lead characterization as a homophobe. Attribution of "vulgar" (which appears to satisfy your WP:NPOV sensitivies inre "homophobic") can be just as easily accommodated. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:46, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Obscene" or "obscenity"
Here are some mentions of the term being obscene: [12], [13], [14], [15]. I'm sure there are more.Griswaldo (talk) 13:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
How about "obscene" instead?
Perhaps "vulgar" isn't the best term to use, but "obscene" appears to be a pretty popular descriptor, and is perhaps more accurate and less confusing all around. Thoughts?Griswaldo (talk) 04:37, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- The sources in the above section all militate for using the word "sexual" which I tried and was reverted. "Obscene" is the same as "vulgar" unless it can be sourced... I looked at your link but didn't see anything RS, it's only Santorum talking again, same as with "vulgar." Did I miss something there? BE——Critical__Talk 06:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Obscene has a distinct legal meaning as well and the neologism's definition probably doesn't meet that. -- Avanu (talk) 06:45, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I too don't think that 'obscene' should be used here particularly as it has a legal meaning. The correct word to use here should be 'vulgar' as that carries the correct meaning, and 'sex-related' is simply a euphemism, it could well refer to 'condom'. John lilburne (talk) 14:26, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Concur. Here is obscene in a RS to o[16]. I think we are parsing the English language a little too thin here. Vulgar's definition fits the topic. ITS not POV, its reality. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 15:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Obscene is a completely inappropriate word for it. It has a specific legal meaning which does not apply to it. I see no problem with vulgar. If you were to ask Mr. Savage and Mr. Santorum (as representatives of the main opposing views) and a random sample of people on the street (reading the definition to them) whether it was "vulgar"; I think you would get complete agreement that it is. -Jason A. Quest (talk) 00:28, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
People keep missing the point. The sentence as worded is telling us the INTENT of Dan Savage. Unless you are a mind reader, or unless Dan Savage says "vulgar" himself, then his own words and his readers' words say "sex act" or "sexual byproduct". Sex-related is a fine merge of the two. They do not say the word vulgar. It may be vulgar, or be considered vulgar, BUT you must change the sentence if you use the word vulgar. Like so: "American columnist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to create a neologism using the surname of Rick Santorum, whose definition is now widely considered to be vulgar"
You can't just call it vulgar because the sentence says "Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to create ..." This phrasing DIRECTLY relates to the intent that Dan Savage has. And so by referring so closely to the intent, we must go by what the primary source says. -- Avanu (talk) 16:54, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Avanu, if you really want to describe the word based on Savage's intentions then you are OK with replacing "vulgar" with this description: " ... a sex act that would make his big, white teeth fall out of his big, empty head." So we would end up with something like this:
- American columnist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to create a neologism using the surname of Rick Santorum, which would equate "santorum" with a "sex-act" intended to make Rick Santorum's "big, white teeth fall out of his big, empty head."
- Now, I don't agree that Savage's intentions have any special claims to how we describe this term in the first place, but since you do maybe my suggestion is one you'd back? Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:16, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I can't see what the issue is here. Savage clearly intended to create a vulgar definition, so that's what he did. It's not only "sex-related," which might include things like "nice, big, wet kiss." SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 18:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have made an edit to the lead which will hopefully address Avanu's concern. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:33, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I cannot fathom why people, who have argued NOTCENSORED would suddenly want to substitute a euphemism for what the Savage did. ""There's no better way to memorialize the Santorum scandal than by attaching his name to a sex act that would make his big, white teeth fall out of his big, empty head." That is clear statement that Savage's intent wasn't to be create something that was vulgar. John lilburne (talk) 18:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but I think you are venturing into WP:Synth with perhaps a dose of WP:TRUTH as well. I've seen no sourcing suggesting Savage's "intent" was creation of, specifically, a "vulgarity" and you can't just make that leap...nor is it necessary. There is adequate sourcing to support the characterization of his attack's by-product as "vulgar"...attributed if consensus demands. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- WP:LEAD is very clear, it is an introduction and summary of the article's contents, it doesn't matter what Savage's statement was or Santorum's for that matter, it should accurately summarize the article and all points of view per WP:NPOV, 'sex-related' is vague and unclear, what is intensely clear to any thinking human being on the planet (as reflected by multiple reliable sources) is that it is vulgar, and was meant to be vulgar, otherwise there would have been no impact. We're not limited to just Savage's puported, whitewashed so-called "intent" per some of the editors here. Come on, folks, at least have the nerve to WP:SPADE this thing if you really think its existence is justified. Dreadstar ☥ 18:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's not clear to me that it's vulgar, but I suppose that I'm among the editors trying to use Wikipedia to further a political point, and among the ditors who aren't to be taken seriously, so adding "not a thinking human being" is just one more personal attack on a page that's rife with them. But if, in your view, it's "intensely clear", then presumably you mean it's clear from the text of the definition. We include the text of the definition. Therefore, adding "vulgar" gives no new information to any reader who's a thinking human being. By the way, our article on Enema uses the phrase "fecal matter" -- is that article vulgar? JamesMLane t c 03:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- 'Vulgar' seems to me to be a pejorative description ('obscene' even more so), one which ought to be avoided under WP:NPOV. Why not just say "sexual neologism"? That has the benefit of being accurate and concise. Sam Blacketer (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Seems"? It is a decidedly pejorative description and one which, in all liklihood, Savage would delight in. Less so some contributors here. It is also precisely accurate and WP:RS sourceable...which should be the salient point here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:08, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Pejorative"? I'm sorry, Sam, have you seen the actual article? "Pejorative" describes the thing from start to finish. And I have to say that "sexual neologism" is totally inaccurate, doesn't meet WP:V or any other policy requirements, it has no benefits whatsoever. Dreadstar ☥ 19:11, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, I have zero problem with the term 'vulgar' being applied to this term. I think it is an accurate description of the term. The problem is when we say that Dan Savage's intentions are to create a "vulgar" word. Show us proof that Dan Savage sees this as vulgar and I'll support the change to say that, otherwise, we are stating that we clearly can read his mind and know his true intentions. I think from Dan Savage's statement, we can imply that he meant it might be shocking and MIGHT be vulgar to Rick Santorum, but Dan Savage is a guy who is comfortable discussing ass poo in a public setting and does not necessarily find this vulgar. Our word is telling the reader what Savage's intent and thoughts were. We can't know these for sure unless he says something. -- Avanu (talk) 19:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- That doesn't match what WP:LEAD says, and is just a red-herring. Quit trying to attribute what the lead says to a POV, it doesn't work. And besides, what you're claiming doesn't match the current lead. Dreadstar ☥ 19:29, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
Avanu, your original point was acknowledged and a change was incorporated into the text to reflect your concern. Unless you or anyone else has some further concern on this topic, how 'bout we hat this and move on? JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think we have it pretty much accurate at this point. It might need some tweaks for flow, but otherwise this looks like an improvement that meets everyone's concerns. Good job all. -- Avanu (talk) 19:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- LOL! "improvement that meets everyone's concerns", yeah right, that comment made me snort milk with laughter! And if one of you, even one, associates that with 'santourm', I will track you down and end your pitiful existance. :D Dreadstar ☥ 20:05, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- It is necessary again to remind everyone that we have a neutral point of view. The article cannot endorse a point of view. One of the points of view it cannot endorse is the one that says Dan Savage was wrong to apply the name 'Santorum' to something that then-Senator Santorum was intended to find offensive. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- It might need some tweaks for flow...
- Quite frankly the current composition makes me cringe (sorry Dreadstar) but I'll resist the compulsion to re-write as long as I can. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, I totally agree it's a bit too...um...'wordy', but that can be easily fixed if the POV wars will calm down. The whole fracking thing makes me cringe, so no worries.. :D Dreadstar ☥ 20:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- And...no. Dreadstar ☥ 20:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- As you've restored my earlier edit, I must commend your compositional acumen. Can we hat this now?JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:28, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think we have it pretty much accurate at this point. It might need some tweaks for flow, but otherwise this looks like an improvement that meets everyone's concerns. Good job all. -- Avanu (talk) 19:53, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, whatch'all think of the editing I just did to the lede?[17] Although I've argued against "vulgar" above, I think it fits in nicely as a "vulgar word association" (thanks to whoever thought of that phrase) to which Santorum objects but shrugs off. You could replace "vulgar" with "offensive", "obscene", "sexual", whatever, it's all about the same. "Sex-related" sounds odd in this exact phrase, I'm not sure why. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:29, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, whatch'all think of the editing I just did...
- Well, as you would apparently have a benign, perhaps even heroic, Dan Savage acting in behest of the oppressed against that homophobe Rick Santorum, need you REALLY ask? JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
- All that from moving one phrase from the first paragraph to the fourth? This drafting exercise is like a scene from 1776. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sit down JakeInJoisey? JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I was thinking of the piddle twiddle bit. Actually, I was looking on YouTube scenes where they're marking up the document or voting on compensation for the dead donkey. We Wikipedians would make a good Continental Congress. I love that musical. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, here it is, if you'll forgive the likely copyvio.[18] John Adams' experience is a lot like working on Wikipedia's political articles. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hehehe...that's a good'n indeed. With the pt having abated to a dull roar here for the moment, I'm yielding the floor for the evening. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, here it is, if you'll forgive the likely copyvio.[18] John Adams' experience is a lot like working on Wikipedia's political articles. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:06, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I was thinking of the piddle twiddle bit. Actually, I was looking on YouTube scenes where they're marking up the document or voting on compensation for the dead donkey. We Wikipedians would make a good Continental Congress. I love that musical. - Wikidemon (talk) 01:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sit down JakeInJoisey? JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:39, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- All that from moving one phrase from the first paragraph to the fourth? This drafting exercise is like a scene from 1776. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Quit trying to whitewash the lead, Blacketer.The campaign's beginning, the contest, culminated in a vulgar (sourced! Obvious!) word association. Dreadstar ☥ 20:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- The sources are from people who take the view that Dan Savage's actions were worthy of censure. The phraseology you want should be removed because it endorses a particular point of view, and I do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- (ec - addressing Dreadstar) Please don't accuse other editors of whitewashing things. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that is often interpreted as an accusation of agenda-driven editing. I don't think there's clear consensus to use the word "vulgar" to describe the word. It's in there because SlimVirgin added it as part of her rewrite, and her rewrite is so good that most everyone has accepted it as our new baseline for the article. The fact that "vulgar" is sourced means we could choose to cherry pick that specific adjective, but it is a matter of editorial discretion and that word doesn't quite hit the nail on the head for reasons that have already been voluminously discussed. "Sexual" or "sex-related" is much more neutral and precise. Nevertheless, if consensus settles on keeping it, I have no strong objection at this point. IMO the word is acceptable as it is, just not ideal. But you know what they say, consensus is the optimal solution that leaves everyone only slightly displeased, right? - Wikidemon (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- The sources are from people who take the view that Dan Savage's actions were worthy of censure.
- From "Infoplease" (emphasis mine)[19]...
Savage took the winning entry and, as a malicious prank, succeeded in an effort to spread the new slang term "santorum" through the use of internet search engines (a "Google bomb"). The definition, far too vulgar for polite conversation, became a top search result...
- This is an "encyclopedic" treatment worth emulating. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:07, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I like your ideas, JakeinJoisey, you've got some good edits here; I like this version. Bottom line is that I can't see removal of "Vulgar" (or its like) from the article's lead section, it won't ever be acceptable to me. If not vulgar, then find a better word, but "sex-related" just won't cut it and is the POV of only one side of this. Dreadstar ☥ 22:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- (ec - addressing Dreadstar) Please don't accuse other editors of whitewashing things. Perhaps you don't mean it that way, but that is often interpreted as an accusation of agenda-driven editing. I don't think there's clear consensus to use the word "vulgar" to describe the word. It's in there because SlimVirgin added it as part of her rewrite, and her rewrite is so good that most everyone has accepted it as our new baseline for the article. The fact that "vulgar" is sourced means we could choose to cherry pick that specific adjective, but it is a matter of editorial discretion and that word doesn't quite hit the nail on the head for reasons that have already been voluminously discussed. "Sexual" or "sex-related" is much more neutral and precise. Nevertheless, if consensus settles on keeping it, I have no strong objection at this point. IMO the word is acceptable as it is, just not ideal. But you know what they say, consensus is the optimal solution that leaves everyone only slightly displeased, right? - Wikidemon (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- The sources are from people who take the view that Dan Savage's actions were worthy of censure. The phraseology you want should be removed because it endorses a particular point of view, and I do not offer any further Reason, trusting that this Reason may be deemed sufficient. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
@Blacketer, the phraseology that this is Vulgar, matches the very definition of the word, and summarizes views of secondary reliable sources on the subject. "Sex-related" is definitely POV wording and totally whitewashes the subject. Dreadstar ☥ 22:16, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, add "prissy" to the list of publications that use "vulgar". What's POV about sex-related? Is it not related to sex? Failure to add a POV opinion is not itself POV. We try not to use encyclopedia's for sources because they're tertiary because we have no insight into their editorial judgment, which in Infoplease's case seems to err on the side of prissiness. In fact, per WP:NOR it would be a policy violation to use InfoPlease for an evaluative / analytic claim that the word is vulgar: Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have been published by a reliable secondary source. If we do want to emulate them we shouldn't take that passage out of context. They're not reporting that the word is vulgar or that it is improper to discuss it among gentlepersons - they just did. What they're saying, using a somewhat prissy and fatuous figure of speech, is that they refuse to print the definition because it offends them. All we can take from that is that the online encyclopedia Infoplease withheld the definition from its article, considering it too offensive to print. We'd need a third party source for that, and it's not terribly relevant because they're a relatively minor publication and not a party to any of the events. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- "Sex-related" violates NPOV for many reasons; first because it is clearly the statement from only one POV, and in no way represents the views that the definition is 'disgusting', 'repulsive" or even the 'less vulgar' choice that Reliable Sources call it? And yes, it may be "prissy" that news sources won't print it, but why is that? Because it's fracking well vulgar, that's why. What exactly is not vulgar about it? Here's a good test, go see how far you get with a 5th grade class, one of you take a subject like eating bugs or something else like that, the other take describing santorum. See who ends up in jail or lynched. Find a better word than Vulgar, eh? "Sex related" just doesn't cut the mustard. (no another visual!! nooo!) Dreadstar ☥ 22:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- The better question is why in the world would we want to emulate Infoplease? Protonk (talk) 22:45, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Dreadstar, calling it "sex-related" doesn't express the opinions of anyone saying that it isn't offensive, it's just not expressing an opinion. If you wanted to present contrasting opinions you could say that Savage's campaign succeeded in creating an association of Santorum's name with a definition that is sort of vulgar, and sort of potty-mouthed, but on the other hand not a big deal. Anyway, you're not arguing that "sex-related" is non-neutral, you're arguing that failure to include "vulgar" is non-neutral. Across the encyclopedia I find that arguments of the form "include my adjective or else you're just whitewashing the truth" are usually not winners. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, add "prissy" to the list of publications that use "vulgar". What's POV about sex-related? Is it not related to sex? Failure to add a POV opinion is not itself POV. We try not to use encyclopedia's for sources because they're tertiary because we have no insight into their editorial judgment, which in Infoplease's case seems to err on the side of prissiness. In fact, per WP:NOR it would be a policy violation to use InfoPlease for an evaluative / analytic claim that the word is vulgar: Articles may make analytic or evaluative claims only if these have been published by a reliable secondary source. If we do want to emulate them we shouldn't take that passage out of context. They're not reporting that the word is vulgar or that it is improper to discuss it among gentlepersons - they just did. What they're saying, using a somewhat prissy and fatuous figure of speech, is that they refuse to print the definition because it offends them. All we can take from that is that the online encyclopedia Infoplease withheld the definition from its article, considering it too offensive to print. We'd need a third party source for that, and it's not terribly relevant because they're a relatively minor publication and not a party to any of the events. - Wikidemon (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- (after several ec - addressing the hummorful Dreadstar) Come on, come on! Please don't accuse other editors of bad faith here. You're just swinging the Savage (my new term, for trying to get a rise out of people on the Santorum page). In any event, we have some occasional sources that use the word "vulgar" but for the most part they are voicing their own opinion in doing so. The above dictionary definition (one among many) shows just why vulgar isn't a good word to use. Let's go down the list:
- 1(a): generally used, applied, or accepted - no, and I don't think people would assume this
- 1(b): understood in or having the ordinary sense <they reject the vulgar conception of miracle - ditto
- 2: vernacular - slight possibility of confusion this is what we mean, vulgar is a quaint word for vernacular
- 3(a): of or relating to the common people : plebeian this must be a Britishism or archaic way of being dismissive, as modern authoritative sources do not put down the lives of the Hoi polloi this way
- 3(b): generally current - I'm not familiar with this usage, must be infrequent
- 3(c): of the usual, typical, or ordinary kind - as the above, seems infrequent / archaic
- 4(a): lacking in cultivation, perception, or taste : coarse - a value judgment, and a significant risk that readers would think it's what we mean to say
- 4(b): morally crude, undeveloped, or unregenerate : gross - a moral judgment, and a significant risk that readers would think it's what we mean to say
- 4(c): ostentatious or excessive in expenditure or display : pretentious - a common usage, but clearly not what we mean
- 5(a): offensive in language : earthy - the first half may be exactly what we're trying to say, but it's a POV judgment to call something offensive. Who is it offending? Not me. Not the Wikimedia Foundation. To use vulgar in this sense we would have to explain the context of who finds it offensive, and if we did that we might as well say it explicitly
- 5(b): lewdly or profanely indecent - the first half, the lewd part, also may be what we're trying to say, but if that's the case it's definitely POV. The definition of Santorum is definitely lewd, but is it so lewd as to be indecent? That again is a value judgment.
- So, again, the word suffers from ambiguity (multiple definitions fit, and we do not give enough context to say which one we intend), and alternate definitions make us seem either judgmental or sanctimonious. I have no problem saying that the term is bodily, excretory, carnal, lewd, sexual, or that it was intended to shock and offend, or that it did in fact offend people. But Wikipedia is not in the business of passing judgment about what's offensive and what is not. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:01, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- (after several ec - addressing the hummorful Dreadstar) Come on, come on! Please don't accuse other editors of bad faith here. You're just swinging the Savage (my new term, for trying to get a rise out of people on the Santorum page). In any event, we have some occasional sources that use the word "vulgar" but for the most part they are voicing their own opinion in doing so. The above dictionary definition (one among many) shows just why vulgar isn't a good word to use. Let's go down the list:
- The incorporation of "vulgar", with qualification and/or attribution if consensus demands, is just as easily accommodated as was "homophobic", nor are "sex-related" and "vulgar" mutually exclusive. JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:56, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Good point. You could say that it is a "vulgar sex-related" term, or that [x publication] called the sex-related term "vulgar". However, the sentence immediately prior contains the word "sexual act" so it would be redundant. In fact, I've just tried combining the two sentences to avoid being repetitious.[20] - Wikidemon (talk) 23:12, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I saw your edit (GACK!). Please refresh your recall of the discussion that started this entire section discussion.
- I'll post a suggested edit here shortly that will hopefully make some progress and you can whack away at it at your leisure. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:27, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Point taken, sorry. That sentence is so ungainly there. It repeats the sentence before with a couple extra words added, but time-wise it's out of sequence and it just doesn't express things clearly, the question of the word "vulgar" aside. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- First attempt...
In a response to comments by Rick Santorum widely regarded as homophobic, American columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to associate the surname of then-Senator Rick Santorum with a sexual act. This effort culminated in the creation of a sex-related, regarded by some observers as vulgar, word association.
- Not sure how "ungainly" is evidenced but tweaked a bit to eliminate some phrasing.
- As to your "time-wise" observation, you have not yet (AFAICR) broached that subject in talk. I understand your premise and totally disagree with it but it's just going to further clutter this thread discussing it here. Plz post it elsewhere if you don't mind. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oops, sorry. I didn't properly digest your "redundancy" comment. I agree...and I'm not quite sure how to resolve it without a bit more thought. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:00, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Separating the two adjectives in that way is kind of difficult to parse. How about removing the second instance of "sex act" - people will remember it from the sentence before. W'll have to fact check and justify saying that Santorum's comments were "widely" regarded as homophobic, or that "some" regarded Savage's definition as vulgar. It's probably the other way around, a few people were bothered by Santorum's comments and a lot of people were bothered by Savage's efforts. You can't equate the two because Savage isn't running for President and Santorum isn't writing a gay-friendly alternative press sex advice column. But we should reflect the facts on the ground as they say. Do we have sources on how prevalent and strong people's opinions are, and is it worth indicating that in the lede? BTW, maybe you should start a new section with your proposal, or else just go for it and see if it sticks. I think we've talked so much that fewer people are reading anymore. Also, it's the weekend... a good time to gain consensus by default, bad time to get lots of comment. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:10, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps elimination of the redundancy (which is really being promoted as an alternative to "vulgar") might be more palatable given the addition of the attribution/qualification for "vulgar"? And, yes, "widely regarded as homophobic" is probably going to be problematic as well...but I, for one, am tableing that for now (though it was recently raised in an edit which I reverted simply to try to establish better interim focus). Anyway, my last attempt for the evening...
In a response to comments by Rick Santorum widely regarded as homophobic, American columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to associate the surname of then-Senator Rick Santorum with a sexual act. This effort culminated in the creation of a word association regarded by some observers as being vulgar.
- Perhaps others might suggest some improvements. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Separating the two adjectives in that way is kind of difficult to parse. How about removing the second instance of "sex act" - people will remember it from the sentence before. W'll have to fact check and justify saying that Santorum's comments were "widely" regarded as homophobic, or that "some" regarded Savage's definition as vulgar. It's probably the other way around, a few people were bothered by Santorum's comments and a lot of people were bothered by Savage's efforts. You can't equate the two because Savage isn't running for President and Santorum isn't writing a gay-friendly alternative press sex advice column. But we should reflect the facts on the ground as they say. Do we have sources on how prevalent and strong people's opinions are, and is it worth indicating that in the lede? BTW, maybe you should start a new section with your proposal, or else just go for it and see if it sticks. I think we've talked so much that fewer people are reading anymore. Also, it's the weekend... a good time to gain consensus by default, bad time to get lots of comment. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:10, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Oops, sorry. I didn't properly digest your "redundancy" comment. I agree...and I'm not quite sure how to resolve it without a bit more thought. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:00, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Point taken, sorry. That sentence is so ungainly there. It repeats the sentence before with a couple extra words added, but time-wise it's out of sequence and it just doesn't express things clearly, the question of the word "vulgar" aside. - Wikidemon (talk) 23:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- A few further thoughts. The word santorum isn't considered vulgar, it's the definition that offends some people. But the definition itself isn't vulgar - other than using "lube" instead of "lubricant" it uses formal language. It's the thing being defined. But what's so vulgar about this particular bodily fluid? Everybody has bodily fluids, and they're just that. Some are unpleasant, as this one apparently is. Nobody likes it. But what business do we have saying that a body fluid is offensive? What bothers people isn't that someone mentioned a bodily fluid, but that someone equated the Senator with a body fluid - something considered a grave insult in most of the Western world and I would assume some other places as well. I understand that in the middle east throwing a shoe at someone is a horrible insult, perhaps worse than calling them a body fluid. In some countries accusing a person's mother of being a sex worker, or comparing women to various animals, is a big offense. It might help to try shifting perspectives here, as Wikipedia tries to maintain a global perspective and not let the mores of its host country or even the English speaking world as a whole color its account of things. Suppose we were in a hypothetical Middle Eastern locale, and instead of a campaign to redefine Santorum's last name Savage lead a campaign to vandalize all of Santorum's campaign materials with an image of a footprint across the forehead, to the point where Santorum's image was equated in people's minds with the heel of a shoe. Would we, as some are urging us now, say something like "The effort lead to a vulgar association" because that's how most people felt about it? Or would we simply say that it lead to an association with a shoe, something that many considered offensive? - Wikidemon (talk) 23:28, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- We've had several much better lead sentences. This "vulgar" stuff is ridiculous. Vulgar means common. Saying "I need to take a shit" is vulgar, because refined little young ladies and gentlemen don't use the word that has been traditionally applied by common uneducated peasants. It's all a prestige game, trying to cover one's common breeding. Now a neologism can never be vulgar, by definition, because it is not part of the common speech. Wnt (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- That's just crazytalk, Wnt. Dreadstar ☥ 02:10, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- You are such a dainty little soul. Common, in this context does not mean 'everyday' but instead refers to 'low taste, coarseness, or ill breeding'. In a conversation around the dinner table one is as unlikely to hear some one announce "I had santorum running down my leg last night" as one is to hear "I ate blumpkin pie last night'. Both uncommon, both vulgar. John lilburne (talk) 07:39, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- We've had several much better lead sentences. This "vulgar" stuff is ridiculous. Vulgar means common. Saying "I need to take a shit" is vulgar, because refined little young ladies and gentlemen don't use the word that has been traditionally applied by common uneducated peasants. It's all a prestige game, trying to cover one's common breeding. Now a neologism can never be vulgar, by definition, because it is not part of the common speech. Wnt (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
- I would hazard to say that including 'shit' under 'sex-related' is a POV. Not everyone links the two together like that. Dreadstar ☥ 02:10, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, stand-alone 'sex-related' in the lead as a descriptive summary is POV because it merely parrots what Savage said; in order to satisfy NPOV, the lede also needs to cover the other view, which is Santorum's view that it is vulgar. There's no better, sourced word to express and summarize that view, is there? Dreadstar ☥ 02:44, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- The whole POV discussion is off track anyway. People who speak English understand that the definition is vulgar and/or obscene. This is a matter of basic comprehension. Some people find obscenities funny, others offensive. More commonly people find obscenities funny in certain contexts and offensive in others. Yet, people still understand what an obscenity is. For instance, the humor, when one finds an obscenity funny, in fact hinges upon this very understanding. When a term, or in this case a definition, transgresses normative notions of decency, morality, or decorum it becomes obscene or vulgar and yes people get this. Everyone who is part of this debate gets it. If you can recognize the function of this definition you've got it, and you've provided another piece of evidence that this is an obscenity. Just because the obscenity doesn't offend you directly doesn't change what it is.Griswaldo (talk) 12:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- In any other environment and given the choice of all words thus far considered, "vulgar" would be (IMHO) stipulated by all sides as precisely the right word to characterize the subject-at-hand. In the sourcing that has thus far been examined, where the source actually elects to characterize the subject, "vulgar" appears to be the word of choice.
- And what of "homophobic"? Is this a characterization so dominant that it actually warrants "widely regarded as homophobic" with ZERO expression of what might be considered an opposing view? Surely those views were expressed? Are the sources for "homophobic" expressing the source's view or predominantly echoing that of the proponent's view? And where are the voices of the WP:NPOV acolytes inre "homophobic? Cue crickets. JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
There is, IMHO, unwarranted, excessive, distractive and, in the final analysis, irrelevant opinionating being brought to bear on this issue. While it can be legitimately argued that the use of "vulgar" as a characterization is, in most cases, a subjective assessment predicated on one's own perspective, OUR consideration for inclusion must be based upon whether or not utilization of that descriptive is adequately supported in WP:RS sourcing. If so, under WP:POLICY, we report it as a "fact" with attribution/qualification as needed and as appropriate by consensus, not as a gratuitous POV insertion subject to deletion via WP:NPOV consideration.
For those objecting to its incorporation, your resolution lies in either the inadequacy of WP:RS sourcing supporting inclusion OR the provision of WP:RS sourcing either disputing that characterization or providing an alternate characterization, and not in lieu of "vulgar" but in addition to vulgar. Dem's da rules. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Negatory on all the recent points there! My reading comprehension is okay, at least I'm happy with it, and I don't think the word "vulgar" fits because is carries a whiff of prudishness and moral judgment. Certainly not "obscene", which is a silly and prissy to think of this kind of potty talk. I would not use either word to describe the phenomenon in explaining it to an interested reader new to the subject because they cast Wikipedia's voice as a non-neutral narrator. Savage's definition of santorum is what it is, and readers can make up their own mind how offended they feel about it without our assuming the normative role of instructing them how to feel. There is absolutely no policy requirement to say everything that can be sourced. Sourcing is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for including things in the encyclopedia. After passing verifiability, BLP, MOS, and a host of other policy and guideline filters, is our job as editors to use judgment to decide what is relevant, encyclopedic, and of due weight. If we have 100 sources on this issue, with 3 mentioning (once per source) that they consider the term "vulgar", an equal number saying "obscene", one mentioning that you can't describe it in polite company, and a whole range of hemming and hawing with other idiosyncratic language they use when writing about uncomfortable subjects, the resulting panoply of adjectives is a not particularly germane point. We may choose one term or another, and I don't especially object as it is not a huge issue, but vulgar is not the best term. It's unnecessary to qualify either "homophomic" or "vulgar" with the obvious counterpoint that not everybody feels that way. Santorum's comments offended a lot of gays and people who support gay rights, something that is relevant because that's what set this whole thing in motion. What's relevant about Savage's definition isn't that it's intrinsically offensive, but that it succeeded in getting a rise out of some people Savage meant to offend and perhaps some he didn't. - Wikidemon (talk) 14:24, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- You are quite correct in at least one regard. I did neglect to mention that jury nullification...er, make that editorial discretion...is always a viable safe harbor for exclusion. However, I'd think long and hard before encouraging Savage to try on those "vulgar" gloves. This time they'd fit to a tee.JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- The funny thing here is that "This effort culminated in the creation of a vulgar word association" could be taken out entirely without any damage to the lead. Let the reader see the definition and decide for themselves. BE——Critical__Talk 17:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Actually the more amusing thing here is the irony of this WP:NPOV hand-wringing to shelter an epic defamation ("the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex") from being egregiously maligned as "vulgar"...a characterization in which Savage himself delighted. Beam me up Scotty.
- As to:
- ...vulgar word association" could be taken out entirely without any damage to the lead.
- Yeah, right.
Dan Savage campaigns against homophobe Rick Santorum in creating an uncomplimentary name association.
- That about do it for you? Certainly not for me...and certainly a misrepresentation of reality to the reader.
- FWIW, here's another shot at it that addresses some ongoing concerns. Bring on the slings and arrows...
American columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to associate the surname of then-Senator Rick Santorum with a sexual act. Outraged by comments made by Santorum which were widely regarded as homophobic, his effort culminated in the creation of a derogatory word association, regarded as vulgar by some observers.
- JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:25, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- The funny thing here is that "This effort culminated in the creation of a vulgar word association" could be taken out entirely without any damage to the lead. Let the reader see the definition and decide for themselves. BE——Critical__Talk 17:46, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- You are quite correct in at least one regard. I did neglect to mention that jury nullification...er, make that editorial discretion...is always a viable safe harbor for exclusion. However, I'd think long and hard before encouraging Savage to try on those "vulgar" gloves. This time they'd fit to a tee.JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:33, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- Scotty needs to set the filters to eliminate weasel DNA. BE——Critical__Talk 21:08, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- I still do not believe the word is vulgar, not as a matter of "defending" something, but just as a matter of fact. Nor is it a "dirty word", even more broadly defined, or "swearing", as improperly used. For example, if a kid overheard by a prudish middle school teacher says something is a bunch of bullshit, he's liable to be harassed; but if he says it's a bunch of santorum? I don't see them saying he "swore". This made-up word from the internet should be safe to say wherever "feces and lube" is safe to say. Wnt (talk) 21:22, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
"American columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to associate the surname of then-Senator Rick Santorum with a sexual act. Outraged by comments made by Santorum which were widely regarded as[who?] homophobic, his effort culminated in the creation of a derogatory word association[weasel words], regarded as vulgar by some observers.[who?][weasel words]"
Suggest:
In 2003 former Senator Rick Santorum stated his belief that consenting adults do not have a constitutional right to privacy, and that polygamy, adultery, and sodomy undermine society and the family. In response, columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage initiated a campaign to associate Santorum's surname with a sexual act. Savage had his readers compete to coin a definition for "santorum," announcing the winner as "the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex." He created a website called "Spreading Santorum" to promote the definition, which became a prominent search result for Santorum's name on several search engines. He offered in 2010 to take the website down if Santorum donated US$5 million to a gay rights group, Freedom to Marry
See? No need at all for this argument. BE——Critical__Talk 23:34, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think this is very good, but I suggest one change. The people pushing "vulgar" have mentioned Savage's motive. They apparently want to make clear that this wasn't intended to be complimentary to Santorum. It's clear enough to me already, but we can accommodate their concern without the POV "vulgar". The full "empty head" quotation from Savage is too long for the introductory section, though it should certainly be given verbatim later on. A neutral and concise summary of that quotation is "embarrass". Thus, I suggest ending the second sentence as follows: "initiated a campaign to embarrass Santorum by associating his surname with a sexual act." JamesMLane t c 04:07, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- The people pushing "vulgar"...
- People "pushing"? Hmmmm. Would they be those editors advocating for inclusion of factual and WP:RS sourced characterizations on the product of Savage's effort?
- They apparently want to make clear that this wasn't intended to be complimentary to Santorum.
- On the contrary, your musings as to someone else's editorial rationales notwithstanding. That Savage's "intent" was to produce something uncomplimentary inre Santorum is well-sourced and rather obvious. That the resulting product attained a level of vulgarity that actually warranted comment in WP:RS sourcing is both factual and highly notable in its own right. JakeInJoisey (talk) 05:26, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's somewhat disingenuous of you to argue about Savage's intent, as if I were trying to conceal it. The actual text of my suggested change is to make express that Savage hoped to embarrass Santorum. As for this endless invocation of "reliable sources" because some publications have used the word "vulgar", many of us believe that "vulgar" is inherently a statement of opinion rather than an objective fact. Is the term "fecal matter" vulgar? Is the term "anal sex" vulgar? I think there'd be people on both sides of those questions. If "vulgar" states an opinion, then there is no such thing as a reliable source that establishes it to be true -- only a reliable source that establishes that the opinion was expressed.
- It's also somewhat disingenuous for you to insist that the comments about "vulgar" are notable. I've said that I have no problem with including a report of Santorum's own comment referring to "vulgarity". I could see including reports of third-party condemnations of Savage along the same lines. The important reservations are (1) we report these opinions without adopting them (just as we wouldn't assert as fact that Santorum is a homophobe or a bigot, though we can report those opinions), and (2) this level of detail doesn't belong in the first paragraph. After all, doesn't the definition itself give the reader all he or she needs to determine whether it's vulgar? JamesMLane t c 09:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's somewhat disingenuous of you to argue about Savage's intent,...
- "Argue" about? I am, in fact, ambivalent about how Savage's "intent" has been thus far portrayed or, for that matter, how it might be portrayed assuming WP:RS sourcing. The current text, "...a campaign in 2003 to associate the surname of then-Senator Rick Santorum with a sexual act" is the product of deliberations that introduced this sub-topic and in which you expressed no opinion. Raised initially by Avanu, it was apparently resolved to his/her and to most, if not everyone, else's satisfaction.
- Your suggested edit, ostensibly to "make express (sic) that Savage hoped to embarrass Santorum" is, IMHO, not only trite and obvious to the nth degree but likely both unsupported, understated and arguably the product of WP:SYNTH in your formulation anyway.
- ...as if I were trying to conceal it.
- Huh? Just how you might perceive from my comments that I expressed or even harbored the thought of anything of that nature eludes me JamesMLane. I'll not entertain it further.
- ...many of us believe that "vulgar" is inherently a statement of opinion...
- As do I and about which I have already concurred.
- ...rather than an objective fact.
- It can be both. In this instance, characterizations of "vulgar" from WP:RS sources were/are made and are factual.
- Is the term "fecal matter" vulgar? Is the term "anal sex" vulgar?
- Nope. Nor are "the", "frothy", "mixture", "of", "lube", "and", "that", "is", "sometimes", or "byproduct" vulgar. However, "the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the byproduct of anal sex" was characterized as "vulgar", is adequately WP:RS sourced and, IMHO, eminently appropriate and accurate.
- I think there'd be people on both sides of those questions.
- Interesting observation. However, assuming you were even able to present appropriate and adequate WP:RS sourcing supporting contentions that the definition was NOT "vulgar", it would only support an edit suggesting that "opinion was mixed as to vulgarity of the definition".
- If "vulgar" states an opinion, then there is no such thing as a reliable source that establishes it to be true -- only a reliable source that establishes that the opinion was expressed.
- We state "facts on opinions" regularly and per WP:V I believe.
- It's also somewhat disingenuous for you to insist that the comments about "vulgar" are notable. and this level of detail doesn't belong in the first paragraph
- IMHO, the rhetoric being brought to bear by those who would exclude "vulgar" speaks rather loudly (and quite ironically) to the "notability" of this characterization. It needs to be included...and duly noted in the lead if this article is to reflect an accurate treatment of this subject.
- The important reservations are (1) we report these opinions without adopting them...
- Your concern has already been addressed by qualification/attribution of the characterization.
- After all, doesn't the definition itself give the reader all he or she needs to determine whether it's vulgar?
- How individual readers perceive the nature of the definition is irrelevant to a consideration on the relative weight and notability of how it was perceived and expressed by reliable sources. That's what we're about here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- What's proposed here is to state an opinion, that santorum is a vulgar term, not a "fact on opinion" that as a matter of fact source X called santorum a vulgar term. The former isn't mandated by policy, and no content is mandated by policy as this is a volunteer project. Rather, policy tells us not to use articles to voice opinions because they aren't verifiable facts and may violate NPOV, but that we may describe an opinion if we can source that it exists. As of now, I would say that the fact that some view the term as "vulgar" isn't of due weight, but the fact that the definition was meant to embarrass and offend, and in fact did so, is the heart of the matter and belongs in the lead. Are there secondary sources that describe the opinion of some that the term is vulgar, or offensive, objectionable, whatever? That would be a good starting point. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Humor and good cheer break
I know WP:NOT#FORUM but we've all worked so hard here, and I have a new suggestion. Why not just call it "nasty"? As in, crazy nastyass honey badger nasty. (caution: semi-safe for work, your eyes may bleed) - Wikidemon (talk) 02:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for making me feel better about all my previous attempts at humor. I feel much better now. Thanks. Many thanks. And you know what, Jackals do it too. Honey badger don't care, it just smacks the shit out of the cobra. Yeah. Ok, back to tv. :) Dreadstar ☥ 02:52, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Consensus Resolution? - "Vulgar"?
Break is over. This is, I think everyone can agree, an issue that mandates clear consensus resolution and we need to get on with that business.
IMHO, several related questions remain to be clearly consensus-resolved and should be approached sequentially with an eye towards eliminating distractive and tangential bickering and establishing just where consensus ends and dispute begins...then resolving via question or RfC...
1. Is the characterization "vulgar" so self-evidently appropriate that it can be reasonably stipulated by consensus approval? If so, it's an appropriate adjective not requiring sourcing/attribution/qualification and we can then pursue discussion with yeas/neas as to its appropriate use and where. If not...
2. Does the presented and examined sourcing for "vulgar" rise to satisfy consideration under WP:V, WP:RS as a legitimately supported "fact about opinion"? If not, end of issue. If so,...
3. Does this characterization rise to satisfy WP:UNDUE notability for presentation in the lead paragraph? If not...
4. Does this characterization rise to satisfy WP:UNDUE notability for presentation in the lead? If not...
5. Does this characterization rise to satisfy WP:UNDUE notability for presentation in the article?
I'm also wondering if enough editors even give a crap about this anymore to make ANY attempted consensus resolution feasible or credible. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:26, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- My position on this is that these questions are going to be raised. Because people are going to raise issues, we have to source words like "vulgar." The sourcing on "vulgar" seems weak. It's not at all necessary to use such a characterization. Because it's not necessary, we shouldn't do it. I of course admit that the vulgarity is obvious, however it would only be necessary to characterize it in such a way if we weren't going to let the reader make up their own mind by telling them the definition for santorum. Since we are, there is no need to characterize. BE——Critical__Talk 19:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I am attempting to construct an approach towards clear consensus-resolution of this issue that is NPOV and will afford all editors the opportunity to express their views. What would be more helpful at this point would be observations on the format/effectiveness of the approach I suggested. Are you comfortable or uncomfortable that the series of questions would afford you the opportunity to fully express your views on this issue? JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:49, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I would say no on question 1, and start looking for refs to support an answer either way on question 2. I wrote out the following sentences originally intending to put them in a new sub-section of the Weasel Words section:
- I think the reason we keep dwelling on "vulgar" is because wihout that assertion, there is no need for weasel wording at all. The "some observers" or whatever it turns into, should follow the same basic rules as the other "obviously vulgar" words with WP articles. Fuck, asshole, cunt, and bitch all say something like "This word is used as or considered to be a vulgarity or insult," some of them with supporting/quoting refs in the lede to support that statement. Where the lede merely summarizes, there are refs in the article body to sources that say the words are vulgar/insulting/whatever. Shit asserts, "The word shit is highly offensive," but that ref-less edit was made just this past May by an editor with a red-linked user page who has exactly 23 total edits, and Shit#Emphasis directly contradicts it, again without a ref. I would revert the lede myself except that that could be seen as POINTy if not COI. So unless there's a quote someplace, I think we need to go with The Anome's suggestion slightly above (edit: way below) to skip the mention of vulgarity entirely, and just let the word "derogatory" and the clear reference to feces below do the work for us.
- That removes the need for sourcing, which removes the need for weasel words. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- Problem is there are MANY (to include myself) who are of the opinion that the sheer vulgarity of the definition is part and parcel of its "notability". There ARE "quotes" that have already been offered to establish WP:V, WP:RS legitimacy for that "vulgar" notability and others that find it so offensive as to render it "unfit to print". While I appreciate your response, let's table, at least for the moment, jumping on to #2 as there are editors (such a The Anome below if I correctly understand his/your? position) that strongly believe #1 (or a variant thereof) to be the appropriate resolution. Let's get it argued out and be done with it one way or the other. I'd like to try posing that question in as NPOV a fashion as I can muster to see just where we stand consensus-wise. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- As we got into below, before being directed here, I don't believe for a minute that Yahoo, which (theoretically) prohibits vulgarity, would (theoretically) TOS someone for saying that something is a bunch of santorum. There are many scatological terms, but to be clear:
- Problem is there are MANY (to include myself) who are of the opinion that the sheer vulgarity of the definition is part and parcel of its "notability". There ARE "quotes" that have already been offered to establish WP:V, WP:RS legitimacy for that "vulgar" notability and others that find it so offensive as to render it "unfit to print". While I appreciate your response, let's table, at least for the moment, jumping on to #2 as there are editors (such a The Anome below if I correctly understand his/your? position) that strongly believe #1 (or a variant thereof) to be the appropriate resolution. Let's get it argued out and be done with it one way or the other. I'd like to try posing that question in as NPOV a fashion as I can muster to see just where we stand consensus-wise. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Vulgar Not Vulgar shit faeces turd (sort of) excrement crap (rarely) dung santorum
- Why on the right? Because all new and unfamiliar words start out on the right. Wnt (talk) 23:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- Huh? Why are you inserting discussion here that is unrelated to this thread? Strange. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:48, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- I thought it would be clear, but my point is, certain organizations try to make "vulgar language" something you would get in trouble for using. "Santorum" is not among such terms. Anywhere you can say "feces mixed with lube" (which is not vulgar either), you can say "santorum". Therefore, santorum is not vulgar. Wnt (talk) 05:19, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Huh? Why are you inserting discussion here that is unrelated to this thread? Strange. JakeInJoisey (talk) 23:48, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why on the right? Because all new and unfamiliar words start out on the right. Wnt (talk) 23:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
Culling The first paragraph lead (More)
IMHO, the first paragraph of the lead serves quite well as a concise summary of all the most notable aspects of this subject and consideration should be given to deletion of paragraphs 2 and 3 which redundantly expand on those notable aspects already incorporated in the main body. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- That sounds acceptable, but really to do that we need to get rid of some of the mealymouthed stuff, like "derogatory word association" and "regarded as vulgar by some observers" For instance, say "Outraged by Santorum's comments that were criticized as "anti-gay" by gay rights groups and some politicians.[1] Savage tried to embarrass Santorum by creating a word, "santorum" which meant a byproduct of homosexual sex. Savage's definition became a prominent result on search engines for a search of Santorum's name." BE——Critical__Talk 21:46, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Critical, your position on disapproval of the first paragraph is quite clear but irrelevant to this topic.JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:15, 3 July 2011 (UTC) If you want to pursue it further, you already know where that discussion resides. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:52, 1 July 2011 (UTC)- Then I object to taking out the rest of the lead, because I do not think that, without modification as stated above, it adequately summarizes the article. BE——Critical__Talk 21:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're free to object as you see fit, but objecting to the removal of redundant, unnecessary lead content unrelated to your first paragraph objections appears to be more spiteful than substantive. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:32, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I just gave you a constructive suggestion as to how it might be fixed so removal would be possible. I'm beginning to think that collaboration with you is impossible. You seem to want me to do all the work. BE——Critical__Talk 01:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- You're free to object as you see fit, but objecting to the removal of redundant, unnecessary lead content unrelated to your first paragraph objections appears to be more spiteful than substantive. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:32, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Then I object to taking out the rest of the lead, because I do not think that, without modification as stated above, it adequately summarizes the article. BE——Critical__Talk 21:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've stated my opinion against the "vulgar" bit above, and I'd say that your text sounds like an improvement. Enough meaningful material has been taken out of this article; why not shave some hemming and hawing? Wnt (talk) 02:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- On reconsideration, the success of the campaign as demonstrated in Google search results is something that is, IMHO, probably first paragraph notable. Perhaps...
Outraged by Santorum comments that were criticized as "anti-gay" by gay rights groups and some politicians,[1] Savage's effort culminated in the creation of a derogatory word association, regarded as vulgar by some observers, that attained search engine prominence when "Santorum" is queried.
- JakeInJoisey (talk) 02:37, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "criticized as anti-gay" clause sticks out and isn't directly relevant to the sentence it's in. Savage was outraged because he himself regarded the comments as anti-gay (or homophobic), and created the site out based on his own opinions. The fact that gay rights groups and some politicians agreed with him only affects things indirectly, perhaps that gave him the confidence, and that establishes that he wasn't crazy or acting alone in feeling that way. Likewise, that some observers regard Savage's efforts as vulgar reflects their commentary on the event, it isn't the event itself. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- So how would you write it? BE——Critical__Talk 06:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "criticized as anti-gay" clause sticks out and isn't directly relevant to the sentence it's in.
- Strongly disagree. It directly identifies and qualifies "Santorum comments" as having been denounced as "anti-gay" with that criticism emanating (in its origin) from "gay rights groups" and "some politicians" (with at least 2 reliable sources in, what I assume to be, earlier reports specifically citing "Democrats"). This is a fundamental fact, broadly noted in WP:RS sourcing and indispensible to an accurate presentation of the "what", "when" and "why" of this issue and appropriately placed precisely where it is compositionally warranted.
- Savage was outraged because he himself regarded the comments as anti-gay (or homophobic),...
- That is what he purported and it is already noted.
- ...and created the site out based on his own opinions.
- Please. If you're suggesting that he woke up one morning, ignorant of all that had previously transpired save for the Santorum comments themselves, and spontaneously elected to create the site independent of ANY other considerations, IMHO you strain credulity...or have I misunderstood the point of your observation?
- The fact that gay rights groups and some politicians agreed with him...
- As one who previously advocated for the importance and relevance of "timeline" considerations, you appear to have misconstrued "timeline" aspects of the "who did what and when". You will, of course, correct me if I'm wrong, but it was Savage who appeared to be capitalizing on the fertile ground already tilled by "gay rights groups" and "some politicians", no?. That created a highly political environment and soapbox ready-made for Savage's opportunistic exploitation/elevation of the issue. Comprehending that is, IMHO, critical to an understanding of the "why" and "how" of Savage's success and is HIGHLY notable.
- Likewise, that some observers regard Savage's efforts as vulgar reflects their commentary on the event, it isn't the event itself.
- It IS a WP:RS characterization of the product of the "event itself", highly notable for numerous reasons already stated elsewhere and almost embarrassingly understated (IMHO) in its current qualification (much to the discredit of this project). JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- So how would you write it? BE——Critical__Talk 06:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- The "criticized as anti-gay" clause sticks out and isn't directly relevant to the sentence it's in. Savage was outraged because he himself regarded the comments as anti-gay (or homophobic), and created the site out based on his own opinions. The fact that gay rights groups and some politicians agreed with him only affects things indirectly, perhaps that gave him the confidence, and that establishes that he wasn't crazy or acting alone in feeling that way. Likewise, that some observers regard Savage's efforts as vulgar reflects their commentary on the event, it isn't the event itself. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:45, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've stated my opinion against the "vulgar" bit above, and I'd say that your text sounds like an improvement. Enough meaningful material has been taken out of this article; why not shave some hemming and hawing? Wnt (talk) 02:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- As I've previously explained, one objectionable part of this version is the way it pigeonholes those who criticized Santorum. What was notable about the reaction to the "man on dog" comment wasn't that it was attacked by gay rights groups or even by "some politicians", but that it was criticized so widely, even by some of Santorum's fellow Republican Senators [21], which is quite unusual. Note that this wording evidently gave JakeInJoisey the false impression that the political criticism was only from Democrats -- an understandable error on Jake's part, given that the current wording is so eager to pigeonhole and denigrate Santorum's critics. By contrast, the opinion about vulgarity isn't attributed to "conservative commentators and others" but merely to the neutral "some observers".
- The context here is Savage's action. He considered the comments anti-gay. Of course there were other people's opinions, and of course Savage knew about them, but that's tangential to this article. No one has explained why other people's reactions to Santorum's comments need to be discussed in the second sentence of the article, before we've even told the reader about the actual subject of the article. (I understand the point of mentioning Santorum's controversial statement early on, but describing the reactions to it can be left to the body of the article.) Similarly, instead of saying that "some observers" regarded the definition as vulgar, we can quote Santorum himself to that effect. That would eliminate the strong bias in the current wording.
- If there's a criticism that Savage acted opportunistically, as Jake contends, that can be covered in the article. Giving that criticism more prominence than the basic facts about what Savage did, however, would definitely be POV. JamesMLane t c 04:59, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- You've raised a point on the attribution of "criticisms of Santorum's comments" which, IMHO, warrants further consideration with an eye towards plausible improvement (the Salon cite was particularly helpful in documenting the nature and breadth of specific GOP responses) but also some comments/observations/assertions with which I'll, by now anyway, take obvious issue. However, to better facilitate reaching consensus on a plausible improvement, can you suggest alternative wording to "some politicians" that would more accurately reflect the breadth of criticism without unduly inflating or misrepresentating that breadth of criticism which an unqualified use of "widely held" might easily suggest. Overstatement is just as objectionable (perhaps moreso in this case due to WP:BLP considerations) as understatement.
- BTW, as this topic has now morphed into a continuation of an earlier and ongoing debate, I am amending the section title to reflect that fact and will re-introduce the "culling" consideration only upon consensus resolution to the first paragraph composition. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- If there's a criticism that Savage acted opportunistically, as Jake contends, that can be covered in the article. Giving that criticism more prominence than the basic facts about what Savage did, however, would definitely be POV. JamesMLane t c 04:59, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've already suggested a couple of alternative wordings. Here's a slight improvement that I suggested before (but now with "anti-gay" instead of "homophobic"):
American columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage initiated a campaign in 2003 to associate the surname of then-Senator Rick Santorum with a sexual act. Outraged by Santorum comments that were criticized as homophobic by some observers,[1] Savage's effort culminated in the creation of a derogatory word association, regarded as vulgar by some observers.
- A better improvement would be to get the secondary points (other people's opinions) out of the first paragraph entirely, and cover them only in the body of the article, leaving the first paragraph free to describe what the principal actors said and did:
The "Spreading Santorum" campaign is a project by American columnist and gay rights activist Dan Savage, who, in response to comments in 2003 by then-Senator Rick Santorum, sought to associate Santorum's surname with a sexual act. Because Savage considered Santorum's remarks to be anti-gay, he hoped to embarrass Santorum. His effort culminated in the association of "santorum" with a definition that Santorum has described as a "vulgarity". As of 2011, when Santorum announced his campaign for the Presidency, Savage's definition had become a prominent search result for Santorum's name on several search engines, but had not been accepted by lexicographers as an entry in standard dictionaries.
- That latter version was favored by Avanu and me, tepidly favored by BE Critical (with the deletion of ", but had not been accepted by lexicographers as an entry in standard dictionaries"), and opposed by you and Dreadstar, so at this point it appears to have more support than the current wording. JamesMLane t c 18:37, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've already suggested a couple of alternative wordings.
- Those are not suggested alternatives for improving "some politicians" as a source of criticism, but rather eliminating identification of both it and "gay rights groups" as the original sources of the criticism (and specifically "Democrats" in 2 of the earlier sources). That the source of that criticism WAS specifically identified in at least 2 articles already cited argues for its notability. Further research, if necessary, will probably reveal more of the same. Without that qualifier, any interested reader would be clueless as to from whom and how broadly those criticisms were expressed, an ignorance for which you appear to be strongly advocating.
- Your offer of concurrence in the use of "anti-gay" in lieu of "homophopic", apparently inadequately, or perhaps even totally, unsupported by sourcing, is somewhat...well...underwhelming.
- As you are apparently unable or unwilling to suggest a more appropriate wording for "some politicians" independent of other considerations, "some politicians" will have to suffice, at least for the moment.
- As to your "real-time" head-counting if it's head-counting to be (a rather purposeless exercise in the face of current participation here anyway), the evolution of the existing text has been, while tedious, both NPOV and generally consensus-supported save for this ongoing "vulgar" debate. Despite that unresolved issue, 2 uninvolved voices recently made unsolicited and complimentary remarks as to the product this process has thus far produced. Your proposed edits that would effectively delete content you apparently perceive to be critical of Savage raises POV issues that warrant considerably more editorial attention than a holiday weekend will afford. Head-counting while most are barbecuing (both at home and, perhaps, at the RfCU) ain't gonna cut the mustard...or shouldn't anyway. JakeInJoisey (talk) 20:12, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- You write of "an ignorance for which you appear to be strongly advocating." To the contrary, I have repeatedly said that specific information should be included. Most recently, in the very post you're purportedly answering, I wrote that we should "get the secondary points (other people's opinions) out of the first paragraph entirely, and cover them only in the body of the article...." So your contention that I'd leave the reader ignorant is a flat-out falsehood. (In an article that's attracted so much more heat than light, you should be especially careful not to misstate other editors' positions.)
- We're talking about what would be in the second sentence. Apparently, to some people, it's really really really important that, if this scurrilous article must exist at all, it should at least take every opportunity to denigrate Savage and defend Santorum. That includes giving a false impression that Santorum's critics were only special interests and political opponents. Under the established principles of writing an introductory section, characterizing Santorum's many critics is clearly not more important than giving a summary of the actual subject of the article, that subject being the campaign undertaken by one of his critics.
- There's certainly no reason to take it as given that characterizing all the other sources of criticism must take precedence over explaining the "santorum" campaign.
- I don't understand your comment about my "offer of concurrence" as being "underwhelming". I said early on that I didn't feel strongly about "anti-gay" versus "homophobic". You were among those who preferred the former, so I went with it. Why is it even an "offer" as if I were making a concession and expected something in return? Why do you single it out as "underwhelming"? Your gratuitous remark seems to do nothing to facilitate reaching consensus.
- Speaking of consensus, I love this part: "As you are apparently unable or unwilling to suggest a more appropriate wording for 'some politicians' independent of other considerations, 'some politicians' will have to suffice, at least for the moment." In other words, I haven't persuaded you, so JakeInJoisey, newly appointed Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Wikipedia, has ruled against me? Sorry, Jake, you don't get to decide unilaterally what suffices and what doesn't.
- Your sneering at my "head-counting" might make sense if I had emulated the boldness of some of the pro-Santorum POV editors, and gone ahead and implemented my change. I haven't. Perhaps naively, I continue to try to work within Wikipedia's established processes, although they've been so often violated in this article and violated in the specific case of calling Savage's definition "vulgar".
- Finally, I did not read Slim Virgin to be offering her rewrite as a carved-in-stone version that could not be changed. If she had made any such outlandish claim for it, she would have met with widespread criticism. She did a wholesale rewrite. It necessarily involved quite a few specific points that people didn't address in detail in commenting on it. You seem to be trying to set up a situation in which your preferred version has some mythical "baseline" status, so it can't be changed without consensus, and so you (alone or with a handful of allies) now have the power to veto any changes to the article. If that's your view, we're headed for more time-wasting of the RfC/RfAr variety. How about you just stick to the merits and explain to me why any characterization of Santorum's other critics, whether or not it inaccurately focuses on gay rights groups and whether or not it omits his Republican critics, must be in the second sentence, when those people aren't even opining about the subject of the article? JamesMLane t c 03:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for my break in, looking from afar and after a long break: those tiny changes (atributions) in the lead are all about the first impression of the reader: whether it was deserved or more or less undeserved complication in the Santorum's life. To leave it out is giving different impression then not, both versions are IMHO subtly insuanating some side message (who is more the victim). It is hard to avoid. I knew, that any competent editor here would know about it, but I wanted to point it flatly out. (Maybe just too flatly for such an subtle change in meaning, sorry for that)
To the point I think that: the remarks were criticized as "anti-gay" by gay rights groups (quite heavilly) and some politicians (not so heavilly - but to some extent from politicians of all worldviews). It is hard to put in consistent formulation. Both parts are of it are notable (If are to leave out just part it lets dominate the other one; if both are present it is quite wordy). I have not pattent to wisdom how to balance them the best way. --Reo + 09:32, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- No need for "sorry". Your observations (as are ALL) are not only welcome but necessary to an establishment of consensus. They also speak directly to the original intent of this topic, conciseness and NPOV accuracy in the composition of the lead sentence, lead paragraph and the lead itself.
- Per WP:LEAD...
In general, the emphasis given to material in the lead should reflect its relative importance to the subject.
- As a step towards resolution of a single aspect currently in dispute, and with a stipulated proviso that NOTHING is "in granite", perhaps first defining a most basic question might facilitate both comment and resolution...
Question: Do attributions as to the source of the criticisms directed at Santorum's comments warrant inclusion in the lead paragraph?
- Towards that end, perhaps a before/after comparison (utilizing existing text) may be helpful...
No: Outraged by Santorum comments that were criticized as "anti-gay", Savage's effort culminated in the creation of a derogatory word association, regarded as vulgar by some observers.
Yes: Outraged by Santorum comments that were criticized as "anti-gay" by gay rights groups and some politicians, Savage's effort culminated in the creation of a derogatory word association, regarded as vulgar by some observers.
- JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Question: Do attributions as to the source of the criticisms directed at Santorum's comments warrant inclusion in the lead paragraph?
- Yes - It suggests (quite accurately) that the breadth and source of the voiced "criticisms" are both quantifiable and identifiable, both aspects regarded as noteworthy in WP:V, WP:RS sourcing already cited and examined. A prospective reader will be considerably more informed with the inclusion of this brief attribution which can be expanded as appropriate in the main body. JakeInJoisey (talk) 15:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- No but I think formulating a poll about this fragmentary issue is a bad idea, and of course the presentation of alternatives is bogus. As to the alternatives: The criticism was from "gay rights groups and some politicians", as would be expected, but the real news is that the criticism was also from comparatively neutral sources and even from some of Santorum's fellow Republican Senators -- a departure from party unity that's highly unusual, especially in light of the strong terms that were used. Also, Jake's formulation of the alternative he dislikes features an ungrammatical dangling clause. As to whether to put this right up front at all: The article is about Savage's campaign. That's what a lengthy RfC decided was notable, overriding those who wanted to keep the article at the "neologism" title and overriding those who wanted to delete the article entirely. Therefore, the focus in the first paragraph should be on the campaign. There was long-standing discrimination against LGBT people in the United States; beginning with Stonewall, there was a reaction to this prejudice in the form of activism for gay rights; Santorum disparaged this movement with his "man on dog" comments; his language was widely criticized by many people; one person in particular who disliked it was Dan Savage; because Savage was outraged, he launched the campaign that's the subject of this article. We can't give this whole background in the second sentence. That Olympia Snowe accused Santorum of "bigotry" is less important to this article than that Dan Savage was angered. The other stuff can be included after we've told the reader what the campaign was. JamesMLane t c 17:41, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- As to the alternatives: The criticism was from "gay rights groups and some politicians", as would be expected, but the real news is that the criticism was also from comparatively neutral sources and even from some of Santorum's fellow Republican Senators...'
- Just HOW these attributions/qualifications might be incorporated is premature and irrelevant to the question. The question is WHETHER incorporation of these attributions/qualifications appropriately enhances the lead paragraph in a manner that reflects NPOV, notability, accuracy and improved reader comprehension. If a consensus response is "No", then any subsequent question of how to appropriately present the information in the LEAD paragraph becomes moot. One step at a time. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:13, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
- It depends hah, ha sorry :), I just imagine that you might think, I wish to be some clever one to you, or something to try to go between you guys. But not. I really think this way: about NPOV - If the atributions are balanced, as to reflect the reality, then their inlcusion is an improvement. If there will be problem to reach such an balanced formulation to reflect it: then it is better without them. At the same time: I think it is close to be balanced, but it feel just little off. Somehow, maybe if the "Some politicians" would be replaced with "different politicians" (or something in this direction; to point out the variety of politicians involved, but not to overstate it).
........ the remarks were criticized as "anti-gay" by gay rights groups and different politicians.....
........ the remarks were criticized as "anti-gay" by gay rights groups and variety of politicians.....
- @ JamesMLane - yes, it is about the campaign (the event), (I wouldn't exactly say, that it is exactly Savage's campaign, or maybe I wouldn't say "campaign" is right word for it either, but I see what you mean, and I agree with the spirit of it). In fact the most and foremost notable think is that Santorum's name appeared so high up in the search-engines in such an unflattering light. The subject of the article is that fact together with the events leading directly to that result. To incorporate or not to incorporate those attributions - those are decisions how far back in time it is worth to go in one sentence, and how complex grasp of the situation we are able to give to the reader in one go. Not only the attribution, all the other parts of the lead are explanations of the previous events, it's just onother editorial decission - where it is necessary to make the cut (in the retrospective). My opinion is, that if well formulated, then this part is good and important enough to be part of the lead. Reo + 21:52, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
As I've attempted to stress here, "how" is premature to a resolution on "whether". That being said, NPOV presentation of almost anything is rather easily accommodated by appropriate wordsmithing. For example, "...from both parties" immediately comes to mind as a starting point as does the plausibility of paragraph restructure (if necessary) to enhance readability. Point being that appropriate language can ALWAYS be formulated to consensus satisfaction and should present no obstacle (or even concern really) in reaching your determination. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Significant improvement
I've been doing other things for the past several weeks, and when I just popped in to see how the article is looking, was pleasantly surprised at how improved it is. The tone is professional and clear. Yay! Yopienso (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
+ Yay " me too! I actually have the page on watchlist and happen to see the talks here everyday, but for a long time I cannot see my presence to be important in any way. Those of you taking part in the debate here are way good and profesional and you all together push in right direction. So I would like to thank You all! Reo + 21:57, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
Add my praise here as well. The editors acting to improve this article have done a tremendous job. The work remaining is important but minor relative to the state of what this article could have been. Hopefully at some point folks will look past their views that wikipedia shouldn't have an article like this at all and take pride in the article we have. Protonk (talk) 07:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
WP:CANVASS. I don't see the relevance to improving this article. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 17:07, 5 July 2011 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
A comparable article was created and speedy deleted. There's a discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2011 July 2#Lewinsky (neologism). Will Beback talk 23:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Note: Deletion was overturned, then article was listed at AFD. Aside: Not sure these are quite that clear-cut parallel, either. There's a big difference between a star-struck intern gossiping to a "friend" and getting dragged through the mud by mass media and scandal sheets alike for a few years, and a sitting U.S. senator talking on the record to a reporter and getting targeted by a large number of people who see themselves as members of a sustained political protest. But whatever. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 15:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
|
Edits regarding Rick Santorum's response
Explaining my recent edit to the paragraphs discussing Santorum's response: I've only been keeping a very distant eye on this article's development, so I apologize if this wording change is more controversial than it appeared to me at a glance. My initial motivation was to edit the article's third paragraph so it didn't simply repeat verbatim 80 of the 170 words included in the "Santorum's response" section. The sentence about Google didn't seem so important that it was necessary to include it in the intro to the article.
As I was attempting to condense that third paragraph, I checked the cited source and noted that a) "it comes with the territory" was a quote from Santorum and should be in quotation marks, and b) the text of the source didn't match what WAS in quotation marks in the article. I can't watch the video from my current computer, but it seemed to me like there was no good reason not to simply use Santorum's words as they're written (i.e., "foul" vs. "vile" seems like a judgment call but I can't see how it changes the meaning of the article to use one vs. the other, nor to omit the "unfortunately" at the beginning of that phrase). Again, my intention is not to begin, prolong or provoke any huge discussion; I'm just acting in the hope that this minor improvement (in my eyes) is not a big deal. Revert it if I'm wrong. Theoldsparkle (talk) 15:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nicely done. BE——Critical__Talk 16:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Please discontinue archiving discussion just because you disagree with them
Please discontinue this random archiving. It is beginning to look as if it is being used to discourage valid conversation and should be reported as vandalism. Mugginsx (talk) 17:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Please explain to me how: (1) discussing whether or not this article might be libelous over and over again is in any way helpful to improving it; (2) linking to the deletion discussion of an article which is at best tangentially related to this one (on a page that couldn't possibly attract unbiased editors) is not canvassing; and (3) continuing to discuss said page is in any way helpful to improving this article. Please also review WP:FORUM. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 17:35, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Libel was not discussed per say. We do not have to explain to you specifically what we think. You are not the sole decider as to what is helpful or unhelpful. We have not violated any rules, we have used sources within Wiki to explain what we are saying. I believe you may have misued your administrative tools. Your explanation does not validate archiving, to my mind, because, at this point, deletion is still an option. Mugginsx (talk) 17:45, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- I can't see the relevance to the article. The discussion wasn't archived, merely hatted. The link is there and the comments are there for anyone curious. But nothing about the Lewinsky discussion relates to improving this article. Protonk (talk) 18:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm also not an administrator. On talk pages, discussions can be hatted/archived by any uninvolved user who believes they are not of relevance to the page. There are actually only certain types of discussions that can only be closed by administrators, and that's only when an admin-only action such as page deletion is necessary. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 18:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Deletion is also not an option in the near future, as noted by the recent RfC and three deletion processes that all closed with clear consensus to keep the article. Save an office action (which almost never occurs) or some sudden giant shift in viewpoint by a majority of editors to this page, this page stays. elektrikSHOOS (talk) 00:09, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
DISPUTE - NPOV - Santorum interview
Paragraph 3 concludes the section as follows...
He said he was arguing against any relationship other than marriage between a man and a woman, the basis in his view of a stable society: "That's not to pick on homosexuality. It's not, you know, man on child, man on dog, or whatever the case may be."[2] The interview triggered an angry reaction, including from gay rights activists.[3] A spokesman for the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee described the views as divisive and reckless.[4]
A source already cited (I'll assume there are more) notes that criticisms of Santorum's comments were hardly unrebutted. NPOV, IMHO, mandates not only noting those voices in opposition but also quantifying/qualifying, in some manner, both the breadth and source of the criticisms lest the reader be left with the impression that Santorum and his comments were not only undefended, but universally criticised (also false).
The following content is also problematical...
The interview triggered an angry reaction, including from gay rights activists.
"Including" from gay rights activists? Doesn't the sourcing we've seen (to include the one cited above) suggest that it was from "gay rights groups" that the original criticism emanated? Comments please. JakeInJoisey (talk) 18:31, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- That sentence once included "Democratic politicians", then "Democrat and Republican politicians", and it was changed to the simpler phrasing now. It can probably be rephrased to express reality a little better. -- Avanu (talk) 18:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- As an interim correction, it is my intent to use the existing language from the lead to be changed, perhaps, later pending resolution of already ongoing discussion...
The interview triggered an angry reaction from gay rights activists and some politicians.
- JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- A related discussion in that regard is already underway, but what of...
Conservative activists came to the senator's defense, however, rebutting the charge of gay bashing and casting his remarks as principled opposition to gay marriage.
- and...
The White House expressed its support Friday for Republican Sen. Rick Santorum, who has been under fire by gay rights advocates and Democrats for critical comments he made about homosexuality.
- Is ignoring those rebuttals NPOV? JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:22, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
- Upon a review of existing article content prior to the SV re-write, the sole surviving citation in the Santorum interview section relating to the sources of either criticism or support for Santorum's comments is the opinion of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee. This appears to suggest that, at least as currently composed, neither quantification nor identification of those sources was particularly noteworthy. Assuming that to be the case, I'm at a loss to understand how, under WP:NPOV consideration, only 2 identified critics (one quoted) managed to survive that winnowing process. Comments, please. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:24, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- It is my intent to add the following text to the existing content in order to correct the POV imbalance...
....while conservative activists saw them as a "principled opposition to same-sex marriage".
JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:07, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds good if you can source it well. BE——Critical__Talk 04:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's the same source that sources about half this article (slight exaggeration for effect). JakeInJoisey (talk) 04:17, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds good if you can source it well. BE——Critical__Talk 04:13, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article mention the role of Wikipedia in spreading the neologism?
I was just looking at this article, and I was wondering if we're avoiding the elephant in the room here: the fact that Wikipedia played a large part in popularising this neologism (and still does, given that this page is a high Google result on searching for 'santorum'). I know we're supposed to avoid self-references, but this is one article that I would say actually should mention itself. This article in The Register provides a good summary that can be used as a source:[22] There's also Seth Finkelstein's blog here[23], and this article[[24] ] which notes 'At the moment, a Google search for “Santorum” calls up the Wikipedia page devoted to the “sexual neologism” ahead of the Wikipedia page for Rick Santorum himself.' Surely this is worth mentioning here? Anyone else have any thoughts? Robofish (talk) 14:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Oops, I only just noticed the bit at the top of this talk page which notes 'This page has been mentioned by several media organizations.', and gives various additional sources, such as this Slate article:[25] On that basis, I think there are very strong grounds for mentioning Wikipedia in this article; the only reason it hasn't been done yet seems to be to avoid (further) embarassing ourselves. Robofish (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly, IMHO, a plausible addition. Without considering the outcome of likely debate under WP:POLICY (name yer WP: poison), perhaps it would be beneficial for you to compose a suggested edit, how/where it would be incorporated and present it here for consideration? JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Eh, coming back to this with a cooler head and re-examining the sources, I don't think there is quite enough there to support a Wikipedia mention after all. I did try to formulate a possible sentence to add, but doing so made me realise that the role of Wikipedia in this story wasn't as important as I'd thought. Never mind. Robofish (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see any clear statement - other than Seth Finkelstein's report of what people here are saying - that Wikipedia is actually "playing a large part" in this. Since the neologism was up to the top of the Google rankings long before the article was started, I rather doubt it. Wnt (talk) 17:26, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Eh, coming back to this with a cooler head and re-examining the sources, I don't think there is quite enough there to support a Wikipedia mention after all. I did try to formulate a possible sentence to add, but doing so made me realise that the role of Wikipedia in this story wasn't as important as I'd thought. Never mind. Robofish (talk) 17:19, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly, IMHO, a plausible addition. Without considering the outcome of likely debate under WP:POLICY (name yer WP: poison), perhaps it would be beneficial for you to compose a suggested edit, how/where it would be incorporated and present it here for consideration? JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:32, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
Edit of intro paragraph
I've swapped around the order of the first two sentences in the intro paragraph, and then merged them into a single sentence and tweaked the wording very slightly for better flow. I don't believe this should have made any difference to the meaning of the paragraph, so I hope the edit is non-controversial. -- The Anome (talk) 16:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
I can see that "by ... by ..." is perhaps not optimal, but it's natural. However, I understand the reason for reverting that part of my recent edit. Can we do anything else that's better than "Outraged by Santorum comments..."? -- The Anome (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Eh...mense a mense (.it?). The close proximity of "by" and "by" doesn't do much for me at all and "controversial" (given the subject matter) seems like an unecessary accentuation of the obvious as well as, perhaps, slightly POV in that it might just as easily qualify Savage's antics/product as well. I mean I could live with it I guess, but I believe the prior is better. Perhaps others can comment. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:43, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- In the interest of letting sleeping dogs lie, while not particularly enamoured of "outraged", it was utilized (as I recall) as a consensus-acceptable characterization. If the dogs start barking, your shoes please, not mine. JakeInJoisey (talk) 16:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
NPOV
I think this article, after having been hammered every which way from all sides for weeks, now meets, or very nearly meets, Wikipedia's standards for WP:NPOV. I therefore propose that the {{POV}} tag at the top of the article now be removed. I'd be interested to know what other editors think about this. Any takers? Any disagreement? -- The Anome (talk) 22:14, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
- The current version of the article is biased to disparage Savage and his campaign, but I don't care one way or the other about the tag. When the article concerns a flashpoint issue like this one, the tag is comparatively unimportant. JamesMLane t c 04:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why is there no effort to reduce the attacks on Savage and his campaign? Why have we allowed right wing operatives to skew this in favor of Santorum over other parties? Merrill Stubing (talk) 05:42, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Attacks on Savage? Where? I don't see it, and I support removing the tag. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- The article is pretty poor as it stands. It basically reads as "Savage got pissy so he did this terrible thing". It's strewn with weasel words and leaves out massive chunks of the story. The re-write swung the article from being arguably supportive of the campaign to actively attempting to protect Santorum from it, neither of which is what we're supposed to be doing. I'm going to take a look at fleshing it out and making it more neutral. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Both of your {{who}} tags reference content whose notability for the lead paragraph is already under discussion and whose inclusion is, as yet, unresolved by clear consensus. However, the current language, which you apparently object to as "weasel wording", reflects an interim and compromise product of ongoing discussion and was quite purposefully chosen to that end. Nor is a lack of "specificity" or "vagueness" here precluded by WP:WEASEL (emphasis mine)...
Phrases such as these present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint.
- WP:WEASEL addresses the introduction of unintentional or inappropriate non-specificity, NOT intentionally formulated compromise language. Any consensus-supported "vagueness" in the lead composition can be immediately mitigated, if not eliminated, by the provision of appropriate sourcing (if necessary) and then expanded in the main body to a degree of specificity that satisfies consensus.
- Your participation in the ongoing process towards consensus resolution of your tagged issues will be most welcome. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:48, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- The article is pretty poor as it stands. It basically reads as "Savage got pissy so he did this terrible thing". It's strewn with weasel words and leaves out massive chunks of the story. The re-write swung the article from being arguably supportive of the campaign to actively attempting to protect Santorum from it, neither of which is what we're supposed to be doing. I'm going to take a look at fleshing it out and making it more neutral. Throwaway85 (talk) 07:33, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Attacks on Savage? Where? I don't see it, and I support removing the tag. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:10, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Why is there no effort to reduce the attacks on Savage and his campaign? Why have we allowed right wing operatives to skew this in favor of Santorum over other parties? Merrill Stubing (talk) 05:42, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
DISPUTE - "Who" tags in lead paragraph
Content in the lead paragraph has been objected to by the placement of 2 {{who}} tags. Editors are invited to comment here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 12:59, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- These tags raise objections as to the presentation of content whose notability for incorporation in the lead paragraph is currently under discussion here and here. Since resolution of these discussions might render these issues of content specificity (or lack thereof) moot, these tags, IMHO, should be withdrawn pending resolution of the more fundamental issues involved. JakeInJoisey (talk) 03:31, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Heh, well I see someone came along and saw the same problems I did. Leave the tags till the problems are fixed. BE——Critical__Talk 06:47, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
- Then you will need to edit accordingly as I've removed the tags due to editor non-participation in discussion attempting to resolve the issue (see above). JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:37, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Use of Santorum and Savage images
Soon after the radical expansion of this article, I started a discussion about the use of images in this article. In my opinion, the images add nothing to the reader's understanding of the issue. Following the addition of an image to Lewinsky (neologism) and a subsequent discussion, the images of Savage and Santorum were removed. To put it simply, my position is that if we can place an image of Rick Santorum on the article about the neologism santorum, then we can place an image of Monica Lewinsky on the article about the neologism lewinsky (although I would prefer that neither article has images). I would like to reach consensus about images on articles about sexual neologisms so that we don't have to keep rehashing this.
Given that the main articles are linked, the addition of Savage and Santorum images do not assist the reader (but may introduce BLP concerns), and should not be included. edited due to comment on my talk pageChanged "replaced" to "included" for clarity, as suggested. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2011 (UTC) I higlighted the "should not be included" to bring to the generall attention to the subject of approval or disaproval. The title of section tells us "Use" of article and it seems some ore confused. Reo + 16:47, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - as proposer. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:27, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - Savage? Perhaps. Santorum? No way. On a general BLP principle that less in that regard is more. JakeInJoisey (talk) 14:16, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support - not sure about the pictures of people, but an image of the website page at http://www.spreadingsantorum.com/ would seem to me to be a clear case of fair use for the purposes of news reporting and critical comment. -- The Anome (talk) 14:18, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
opposeRemove all images - First off, the Lewinsky article is facing near-certain deletion in about 3 days time, rendering that aspect of the discussion moot. But even if it wasn't, we don't edit in a "if you have this there, then I can have that here" manner, as it smacks of an WP:OTHERCRAP type of weak justification for one's actions. As for images here, I don't think we should use either one, but if the Savage Fan Club really want him here, then whatever, but Santorum is definitely out. As for an image of the website, that was already tried and deleted. It isn't even a "real" web site per se, just a brown MS Paint-created stain graphic that redirects the user to Savage's blog. Tarc (talk) 14:29, 7 July 2011 (UTC)- You may be confused. Did you mean "support"? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 14:46, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Comment The topic of this article is a campaign, not a neologism. We spent what seemed like a lifetime here a few weeks ago establishing that subtle point. Certainly it is utterly inappropriate to illustrate an article about a sex act with a picture of a living person. But this is an article about an event, involving two grown up men, both serious political players who have voluntarily entered public life. These are importand differences, so your argument based on equivalency fails. There may be good grounds, in its own right, for not illustrating this article with pictures of the two leading men in the drama, but you'll need to annunciate them, the argument from analogy doesn't work. Personally, I don't like the pictures being here. Hell, I don't like the article being here. But all we have is policy, and you'll need to frame an argument using that if you want to delete them. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:59, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Regardless of the title, this article is also about the neologism (not the referent substance, but the word itself). Here is part of what I said in the original discussion which is linked above "The images in the article do nothing to improve the reader's comprehension of the topic at hand. The very same images are included in the biographies of Savage and Santorum, if the reader is interested enough to click through to those articles. Since this is largely related to a word, the images seem purely decorative". Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:05, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Delete --Anthonyhcole (talk) 15:09, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- not a vote - the pictures inclusion, is unnecessary to understand the word, readers can click on the internals. The less of this article there is the more policy compliant it gets. I note - the current version is down to twenty percent of the expansion that User:Cirt created. - Off2riorob (talk)
- leave the images in: the article you cite as an example is an article about a neologism that is widely accepted apparently. this article as it is currently titled is not about the neologism, its about the campaign, and the images add value to the article in that way. if the article was titled [[santorum (neologism)]], the images should not be included. -badmachine`
- The article is also about the neologism, no matter what title it is given. The title should not determine whether or not it is appropriate to include an image, the content should. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:12, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Support removal of Santorum's image. No strong opinion on the Savage image. --JN466 20:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
- Maintain Dan Savage image, but Rick Santorum's image is less relevant. This article is basically about something Dan Savage did. Much as it might amuse me to make a two-image gallery of Santorum and santorum, I can't actually say it makes an encyclopedic point. ;) Wnt (talk) 17:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
- Both images are fine. Protonk (talk) 19:20, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
Sometimes, we need to just use common sense
WP:Use common sense#Use common sense
Might make silly arguments a little less so. -- Avanu (talk) 19:05, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Silly" tho they may be, that's where we're at here. There are several disputes that would benefit from a much more broad editorial input. You might consider contributing there rather than drive-by editing which is sure to raise the temperature level. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:09, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- You might consider not phrasing my edits as 'drive by' also. I've participated quite a bit in discussions on this page, as have something like 200+ editors. -- Avanu (talk) 19:19, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- You can edit as you please Avanu but, as for myself, I wouldn't change a semicolon without first broaching the suggested edit in talk. However, on re-consideration, "BRD" (is it?) seems to be a popular, in vogue approach as well. Whatever floats your editing boat. JakeInJoisey (talk) 19:40, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- You might consider not phrasing my edits as 'drive by' also. I've participated quite a bit in discussions on this page, as have something like 200+ editors. -- Avanu (talk) 19:19, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
"some observers"
I suggest we remove the words "regarded as vulgar by some observers" from the intro sentence. This is a good example of a WP:WEASEL term -- if "some observers" exist, we should name some, and provide cites; if not, we shouldn't put it in at all. I believe the word "derogatory" in the preceding part of the sentence is quite adequate, and the term's vulgarity is self-evident to everyone, Savage, Santorum, and the reader included, and doesn't need mentioning further. -- The Anome (talk) 20:57, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Anome, there are currently 2 open disputes and one open question directly related to your observations. Your voice would be welcome there as a step towards consensus resolution. Until those issues are definitively resolved, any edit such as the one you suggest is provocative if not incendiary...but edit as you see fit...and "Weasel Words", if consensus agreed upon, are perfectly acceptable. JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:04, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for that -- I was unaware of those, and thought the edit was uncontroversial, as I would imagine that supporters and opponents of both Savage and Santorum could surely agree on the (entirely deliberate) vulgarity of the epithet -- the remarkable thing would be anyone who didn't feel it was vulgar. If you provide links to the relevant discussions, I'll happily wade in. -- The Anome (talk) 21:11, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sure...Here, here and here (which I recently removed as the tagger has thus far been unheard from in discussion towards resolution). JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- I second The Anome. That part of the lead needs to be removed, and he stated the reasons well. BE——Critical__Talk 01:02, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- Sure...Here, here and here (which I recently removed as the tagger has thus far been unheard from in discussion towards resolution). JakeInJoisey (talk) 22:03, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
- IMHO, your interpretation of WP:WEASEL as some mandate for specificity is erroneous and is being discussed in a designated dispute section below. JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:08, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
DISPUTE - "Weasel Words" Article Tag
Please discuss here. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:27, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- IMHO, "Weasel Words", or the lack of "specificity" or "vagueness" (eg. "some politicians", "some observers"), while probably undesirable in most instances, are NOT absolutely precluded by WP:WEASEL (emphasis mine)...
Phrases such as these present the appearance of support for statements but can deny the reader the opportunity to assess the source of the viewpoint.
- WP:WEASEL addresses the introduction of unintentional or inappropriate non-specificity, NOT intentionally formulated compromise language. Any consensus-supported "vagueness" or "non-specificity" can be immediately mitigated, if not eliminated, by the provision of appropriate sourcing (if consensus demands) and then expanded in the main body to a degree of specificity that satisfies consensus.
- As far as I am aware, the presence of any vagueness or non-specificity in this article is intentional, interim and consensus supported though they may be qualifying content whose WP:UNDUE consideration is yet to be resolved. Given that, this tag is currently inappropriate and should be removed pending resolution of content issues. JakeInJoisey (talk) 00:46, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- This looks like wikilawyering to me. The language in WEASEL you are quoting is there to explain why we shouldn't use a phrase like "some observers" because it damages article quality. Protonk (talk) 01:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- Fair enough. But I'd then appreciate your thoughts on why the word "can" is utilized to qualify "deny". JakeInJoisey (talk) 01:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- This looks like wikilawyering to me. The language in WEASEL you are quoting is there to explain why we shouldn't use a phrase like "some observers" because it damages article quality. Protonk (talk) 01:31, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- There are just a lot of ways to rewrite the lead (my own example) which don't require weaseling. What we lack is editorial agreement. Since there is absolutely no necessity for the weaseling, that means WP:WEASEL applies here. This also applies to the rest of the article: I've almost never seen any reason for weaseling: it's just bad writing, and usually hides an agenda of some sort. That's why it's frowned upon. BE——Critical__Talk 02:40, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- What would be remarkable would be someone who didn't think the term "santorum" vulgar (i.e. "coarse", "unrefined", etc.); it compares a person and (frothily diluted) shit. I think both Savage and Santorum, and their supporters and detractors can agree on that. Unless we can find a significant number of WP:RS that say it is not vulgar, we should either say that it's vulgar, without qualification, in much the same way that we say the earth is round or water wet, or we should skip the mention of vulgarity entirely, and just let the word "derogatory" and the clear reference to feces below do the work for us.
The campaign itself, of course, is not vulgar at all: it's entirely knowing and sophisticated. -- The Anome (talk) 12:28, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
- I agree it's obvious (within a certain cultural context) but prefer to just let the information speak for itself without characterizing. BE——Critical__Talk 19:07, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
OK. Given the above, I propose either that we remove the words "regarded as vulgar by some observers" from the intro sentence, or that we do both that and change "derogatory" to "vulgar and derogatory" at the same time. I believe either of these changes would be reasonable, in that they state nothing controversial, and at the same time resolve the WP:WEASEL issue. Does this seem reasonable? If so, which of the two would people prefer? -- The Anome (talk) 10:45, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Anome, an issue in this topic is whether "Weasel Words" is a guidance or a mandate for removal or modification. IMHO, the use of a "Weasel Word", when incorporated as a consensus-acceptable contextual accommodation can be perfectly legitimate. Wikipedia itself is, more than likely, replete with examples. Before we progress into specifics as to the merits of this article-wide (not section) objection tag, we need to reach an understanding on that point. Do you believe that WP:WEASEL presents a guidance or a mandate for modification or removal? JakeInJoisey (talk) 11:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ultimately, it's the verifiability policy and WP:NPOV policies that provide a mandate. If it's non-controversial that it's vulgar (and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary), then we can just say it, as a fact. If there is significant opinion otherwise, we should give a cite that supports it (but see also WP:UNDUE). Finally, if there's full-on significant controversy, we go into the whole routing of full-on NPOV "he said/she said" citation and balancing. The problem with this kind of weasel-wording is that it makes the statement as if it was attributed per NPOV, but then refuses to actually give a source, satisfying no-one. -- The Anome (talk) 21:09, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- The Anome, I'm failing miserably to communicate. The issue in this topic is "some observers", not "vulgar". It's the "some observers" that is being objected to. "Vulgar" is the anchor.JakeInJoisey (talk) 21:16, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Absolutely. "Some observers" is indeed the issue. I don't mind much whether "vulgar" remains or goes (it's self-evident to the point where it's unnecessary; if a scatalogical insult isn't vulgar, nothing is) but the "some observers" has to go: it suggests a minority opinion, and I can't see any evidence that any "observers", still less any citable reliable sources, have asserted that the term "santorum" is not vulgar. -- The Anome (talk) 22:25, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
- Some people here are misusing "vulgar". Vulgar speech is the common speech - old, simple English words like "piss" that people thought were fine to use in the Bible before they stopped using them to look aristocratic.
And a scatological insult can be delivered without vulgarity - "he's thinking with his other head", "she is as flat-bosomed as a schoolboy."Nay, in truth scatology requires a study of feces; "his essay was a blot of excrement thrown against his family escutcheon", perhaps. Wnt (talk) 23:31, 12 July 2011 (UTC)- While correct, that usage of the word "vulgar" is not the most common meaning of the word in current usage. "Vulgar" is a word with several different senses: the one I have in mind here is "Making explicit and offensive reference to sex or bodily functions; coarse and rude". See http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/vulgar -- I've just checked my paper copy, and the definition on that page is the same as given in the New Oxford Dictionary of English, which also marks the older usage as "dated". -- The Anome (talk) 08:09, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
You agree to not use the Yahoo! Services to: upload, post, email, transmit or otherwise make available any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;
- I do not believe that yahoo are using the word to mean common speech John lilburne (talk) 12:22, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, but what does it mean to say "explicit" reference? Reference that is too easily understood, perhaps? Because the word is so common? To put your example to work, I would wager that Yahoo does not throw people off for saying "he's full of santorum". I don't even think there's a question about that - they won't, which is a real world example of the fact that it is not vulgar. Wnt (talk) 17:05, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- My problem here is, if the word "vulgar" is not necessary to writing the article, why are we arguing over it? I honestly don't know whose agenda it promotes, but it must promote someone's or else people would just agree to eliminate it instead of arguing over it? That said, "vulgar" is obvious. BE——Critical__Talk 12:35, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- You correctly note that the question of "how" and "where" is totally premature as is a "Weasel Word" objection (the point I've been TRYING, quite unsuccessfully, to make here). There are superior questions to be resolved whose resolution MIGHT render this entire "Weasel Word" debate MOOT. Please see the topic I created which can conceivably address this ENTIRE issue (at least as I see it) in a logical progression towards clear consensus resolution (comments/observations most welcome). JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'll second Jake's request to scroll back up here to resolve a much easier question, which would obviate this entire thread and thus save people time and energy. ☯.ZenSwashbuckler.☠ 19:12, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- You correctly note that the question of "how" and "where" is totally premature as is a "Weasel Word" objection (the point I've been TRYING, quite unsuccessfully, to make here). There are superior questions to be resolved whose resolution MIGHT render this entire "Weasel Word" debate MOOT. Please see the topic I created which can conceivably address this ENTIRE issue (at least as I see it) in a logical progression towards clear consensus resolution (comments/observations most welcome). JakeInJoisey (talk) 13:02, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
- Some people here are misusing "vulgar". Vulgar speech is the common speech - old, simple English words like "piss" that people thought were fine to use in the Bible before they stopped using them to look aristocratic.