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:Do what? Web discussion forums etc are ''not'' reliable sources, and US government sources are primary and so need to be treated with care. Does anyone involved in this subject area actually understand our policies? It seems to be chock-full of speculative and unreliable sourcing. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 11:10, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
:Do what? Web discussion forums etc are ''not'' reliable sources, and US government sources are primary and so need to be treated with care. Does anyone involved in this subject area actually understand our policies? It seems to be chock-full of speculative and unreliable sourcing. - [[User:Sitush|Sitush]] ([[User talk:Sitush|talk]]) 11:10, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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I wasn't speaking to you so mind your business. I don't have to explain myself but I will in this case, I never said use it as a source, I said use it to find information. Again mind your own business. Also I've used the US justice department as a source to cover recent American Mafia arrests. I'm trying to solve this issue and help you Sitush but you'd rather bicker and act in a pathetic manner. No wonder there is no progress here. [[User:ThePlane11|ThePlane11]] ([[User talk:ThePlane11|talk]]) 12:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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I understand the policies, if you actually cared to look at what I typed to BuffCity previously. I wasn't acting like an arrogant child such as yourself. Is it only Conservatives who care about mannerism? I admire BuffCity because he is trying to improve the article whereas you've offered little to none assistance. As I said I understand the policies but as I ALSO said they aren't the best such as calling Michael Franzese "a boss" whereas he was a Capo, by your standards calling him a boss would be fine because ABC reported it, even though it wouldn't be logical. That's the point I'm making. BuffCity & others who will click onto the website, I meant find the RELIABLE information and then try to find a matching and "wikipedia standard source" , thanks. [[User:ThePlane11|ThePlane11]] ([[User talk:ThePlane11|talk]]) 12:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC) |
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Grammar, punctuation and spelling in additions.
When adding new information, please use proper grammar and correct spelling and punctuation. It seems that every time new information is added the people doing so can't do any of this. Gabe1972 (talk) 03:17, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
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Pruned
As others have noted, above and via tags, this article has been a mess for many years. I've massively pruned it. If you want to reinstate any information then please abide by WP:V and cite sources properly in the body of the article. Aside from anything else, there were potential WP:BLP issues here. - Sitush (talk) 17:06, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Removal of Content
Sitush has removed content I was in the process of providing sources for. Can you please put it back... and I will work on providing references for this document. Most of the material is true and sources can be found. Please give me time to do this... I realize it has been unsourced for years, so I understand why you keep taking the material out.
Thanks BuffCity — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 00:09, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Content Removed While I was Adding
I was adding sources and material to this section and it was going before I could hit save.... Please when people are in the process of adding and sourcing material don't remove it. Thanks, BuffCity. I had added a section on DiCarlo as the 1st boss with reference and added sources for Palmeri as second boss... but it was gone before I got to save it. Please when it appears people are working on the article don't remove material. Thanks again. BuffCity — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 00:14, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
- The only explanation for what you describe is an edit conflict. I waited an hour after your last edit before reverting material, and U didn't revert what you had sourced. See this response to your note on my talk page. - Sitush (talk) 07:25, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
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Lead appears to be wrong
The November 2017 charges in Canada and in New York City had nothing to the with the mob in Buffalo.
Those arrested in the US are all in New York City. See https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/members-and-associates-gambino-and-bonanno-organized-crime-families-arrested AND https://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/mob-indictment-induction-ceremony-1.14873268
I have added the updates to the Bonnano crime family and the Gambino crime family articles today. You will find more info there. No Buffalo connection.
The relevant article re: the charges in Canada is Paolo Violi; I updated that article too with the November charges in Canada. No Buffalo connection.
Others were also arrested and charged, including Masimigliano Carfagna of Burlington, Ontario and warrants were out for additional suspects. https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2017/11/15/2002-halton-police-report-had-intelligence-on-accused-mobster.html https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2017/11/10/accused-brothers-in-trafficking-bust-come-from-colourful-family.html During the multi-city bust, police seized large quantities of fentanyl and carfentanil, heroin, cocaine and over 250,000 tablets of controlled substances, some three million cigarettes and several gaming machines. The RCMP advised the news media that those charged had ties with crime families in New York. That week, the FBI arrested several people in the U.S. on related offences; the charges included narcotics trafficking, loansharking and firearms.http://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/rcmp-announces-major-bust-with-links-to-organized-crime-in-canada-and-u-s They were said to be affiliated with the Gambino crime family or the Bonanno crime family.http://aboutthemafia.com/tag/new-york-mafia
Peter K Burian (talk) 20:31, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Yes, I tried cleaning some of it up, but I'm not quite sure if the sources being sourced infact say what is being written. I'll leave it for now in good faith as there is likely a possibility of connection to Buffalo, but it needs to be written without POV. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:15, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
- Well, the mentions of the Buffalo mob in Nov. 2017 articles are insignificant so they certainly did not belong in the lead. (OK, yes, some articles did vaguely mention Todaro; I had not noticed that before.) I read the sources and they are correctly quoted in the article. Extensive research did not reveal anything as to who those alleged "Todaro" members are. Peter K Burian (talk) 21:37, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Adrian Humphries the Canadian organized crime expert makes the connection between the arrests in Canada and the Buffalo Crime family in his article in the Canadian National Post... He clearly connects Buffalo, Maggadino, & Todaro.
- Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph (Lead Pipe Joe) Todaro, Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino. [1]
BuffCity (talk) 18:43, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Removed Content
This content was removed from the article has to be a reliable source not blogs
Current Leadership Boss: Frank BiFulco
Underboss: Joe Violi
Consigliere: Victor Sansanese
- "2018 Mafia Family Leaders". About The Mafia. About The Mafia. Retrieved 14 January 2018.</ref>
- Rédigé Xav, Xav. "LA COSA NOSTRA AUX ÉTATS-UNIS EN 2017". LCN Actualité et Histoire sur la Mafia Italo-Américaine. LCN Actualité et Histoire sur la Mafia Italo-Américaine. Retrieved 14 January 2018.</ref>
- Scarpo, Ed. "Is Buffalo Cosa Nostra Family the Mafia's Dark Horse?". Cosa Nostra News. Cosa Nostra News.
{{cite web}}
:|access-date=
requires|url=
(help); Missing or empty|url=
(help)</ref>
Before adding this information into the article please see Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources Wikipedia:Citing sources. Thank you--Vic49 (talk) 16:06, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
References
- ^ Humphries, Adrian. "'Congratulation': Undercover agent inducted into Mafia ..." National Post. National Post. Retrieved 15 January 2018.
- Yeah, thanks. I have reverted it further back again. BuffCity really needs to get a grip of WP:RS and WP:OR. They've been doing this for ages now. - Sitush (talk) 16:19, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- @Sitush: I think that some of the info that is reliably sourced can stay, but also not in the tone some of the info was previously in. Also I’m not sure if aboutthemafia and cosanostra news are reliable sources. I’ll work on this page a bit later, probably adding some relevant info from Paolo Violi#Next generation. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 16:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- The blogs are not reliable - no evidence of peer review/editorial oversight etc. Very few blogs are reliable. Much of what else was there relies on synthesis of sources and we're not permitted to do that either. - Sitush (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, I think the way forward with this article is probably regular newspaper/news website sources. Even a lot of books published about this type of subject tend to be self-published etc. Alas, I don't have much access to North American news sites. - Sitush (talk) 16:38, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
@BuffCity: you've just reinstated but where, for example, does this source say that the guys concerned are members of the Buffalo crime family? Sure, it mentions someone allegedly connected to the Buffalo family allegedly meeting a couple of other guys, who are the main subject of the news story, but I'm not seeing the connection beyond that. This looks like synthesis on your part, not to mention a BLP issue (which is something you have already been warned about). - Sitush (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Adrian Rogers of the National Post in Canada says so look at the italicized quote. Its obvious.! — Preceding unsigned comment added by BuffCity (talk • contribs) 20:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- No. Read WP:SYNTHESIS. This issue with Todaro has also been discussed in a prior thread here. - Sitush (talk) 20:58, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
- And writing such as
or what they and the feds are now calling "The Todaro Crime Family")
is appalling anyway. The feds? We're an encyclopaedia, not a trash novel. - Sitush (talk) 21:11, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Fino-Rizzo source
Is The Triangle Exit:The True Story of a Secret Undercover Operative for the FBI and CIA (Organized Crime) by Fino and Rizzo self-published or not? I am trying to work out what lies behind the Kindle edition that is cited. I do see that it is billed as a "thriller", which doesn't suggest 100% factual. - Sitush (talk) 21:47, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
Hardcover: 494 pages Publisher: Contento De Semrik (June 30, 2013) Language: English ISBN-10: 9655502147 ISBN-13: 978-9655502145
BuffCity (talk) 18:52, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it is self-published... but you can never be sure... Here is a link to the CEO of that :international publishing house:.... https://www.netanelsemrik.com https://www.contentonow.com BuffCity (talk) 18:58, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Here is a link to Ronald Fino’s Wiki Page. I believe he is a reliable source. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Fino BuffCity (talk) 21:54, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Boy you harsh in your responses... Just trying to gibe you more information on who Fino is since you question his credibility. It had links to his actual involvement to LIUNA national and Buffalo activity in trying to rid the unions of mob activity. Sorry for trying to be helpful. BuffCity (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- We have an article for David Irving but that doesn't mean he is a reliable source. Nor does appearing before a high-level government committee etc. I'm not saying that Fino is not a credible source, merely that the article doesn't speak for it. - Sitush (talk) 22:31, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- Noting that Fino's bio article includes this (archived version). It seems very much to sit on the fence regarding credibility and ends with
To many people in Buffalo, Fino is a mysterious figure. Even people who like him say they really don't know whether to believe all, part or any of the things he claims. His former attorney, Cambria, was asked if he will read Fino's book, should it someday be published. "I don't know if I'll read it or not," Cambria responded. "I can't vouch for his credibility."
As far as I am concerned, that is the clincher and because Fino and Rizzo worked together on this book I think we can also rule out Rizzo's self-authored book which we also cite because the source will be Fino. - Sitush (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
I dont agree, but I don’t think that matters. Using your logic I know people who don’t believe Dab Herbeck of the Buffalo News is a credible source. He has a pony in this race about whether the Buffalo crime family is dead or not. He would like to think his journalistic coverage of Buffalo LCN is a least partially responsible for the supposed death of the family - see his March 2017 article. Adittionally it appears the FBI field office in NY, City is in a pissing match with the WNY field office. According to Herbeck the WNY office says the family is dead. However, the NYC field office definitly identified the Todaro Crime Family in Buffalo as active. BuffCity (talk) 03:10, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
I think an article must fairly represent both positions ...one is just as cedible as the other. BuffCity (talk) 03:13, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Or the two are not the same thing. This is at the heart of what I and others have been banging on about regarding what we think may be original research. I see no evidence of a "pissing match" - do you actually have any sources that say the two groups are at loggerheads or are you just surmising that from your interpretation of the different stories? The latter is the very definition of original research. - Sitush (talk) 06:33, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- ORIGINAL RESEARCH... ...that is why id didn't put anything in the article about a "pissing match." The readers do need to know that the FBI field office in NYC states succinctly members of the Todaro Crime family were arrested in Canada. The Todaro's are from Buffalo. They led the LCN in that city. That is virtually undebatable. Buffalo crime family and Todaro crime family are synonymous to anybody with a half an understanding of LCN activity in the Buffalo area over the years. Humphries staters the Todaro Crime family is located in Buffalo in his quote that is listed in the article.
- Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph (Lead Pipe Joe) Todaro, Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[1]
- SO HERE IS MY QUESTION: Why does the article question the following statement in the article as original research?
- In November 2017 the US Justice Department and Canadian newspapers indicate the family is still active. These publications state members of the Buffalo crime family or what the Toronto Star, the US Justice Department, and FBI in Eastern New York have recently called "The Todaro Crime Family")[original research?] were arrested on narcotics trafficking charges.
Todaro
[1] is this enough for it to be sometimes called the Todaro crime family? Also Joseph Todaro Sr.’s page is an absolute mess as well. One step at a time. Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 23:35, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
- As I have said somewhere above, I find a lot of the journalism on this subject to be somewhat sloppy in wording - sometimes outright breathless prose - and think it might be better to have a separate article. "Took over the Buffalo Mafia" was one example; "built on" in the report you link is another. - Sitush (talk) 23:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Question about the following:
These publications state members of the Buffalo crime family or what the Toronto Star, the US Justice Department, and FBI in Eastern New York have recently called "The Todaro Crime Family")[original research?]
Doesn’t Adrian Humphries equate the Todaro crime family to the Buffal Crime Family—See his quote in the article. Is this Original Research question that was raised implying Humphries information is original research? If not, how can what is witten in the article indicate this original...if Humphries wrote it first. Not trying to be rude, just trying to understand. BuffCity (talk) 02:58, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
Source: DiCarlo: First Family of Crime
If I remember correctly I used this to verify the Buffalo Crime Family is referred to as “The Arm”. This fact is not an exceptional claim. From what I understand a self-published source can be used if...“The material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim.”
Am I wrong? BuffCity (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, you're wrong. If it is so unexceptional, you should be able to find a reliable source for it. - Sitush (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- BuffCity, this is a link to a copyright violation. We can't do that, nor do we know that the site has transcribed it correctly (it's not a great site - SPS again). And, actually, I'm not sure whether it says what you claim anyway: it is another vague descriptor. - Sitush (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
- Im sorry what was the copyright violation? Really I don't understand. The link you listed was to a Buffalo News article on the Laborers International site (LIUNA) which they had posted. Here is the link you gave me: [2]
- All I did was put a reference to a link to a Buffalo News article on that Laborers International (LIUNA) site. How is that a copyright violation? ...I didn't type anything, except "The Arm". If you read that article it explicitly uses the word "The Arm" to describe the crime family in the first sentence and I quote: La Cosa Nostra, The Arm, the Buffalo mob, organized crime, the hats.
- Additionally you say that is the definition of a self published source. Please tell me how that Buffalo News article is a self-published source? That artice calls the Buffalo Crime Family "The Arm." That is why I used it. You had already told me the DiCarlo source out as self-published--so I changed it to try to meet Wiki Standard. (I hope you see I'm trying!)
- And if I remember correctly you had already removed it before I got the second source in which was a better source... So would have removed it anyway. But I still need to understand...HOW IS THIS COPY RIGHT INFRINGEMENT? HOW IS THIS A SELF PUBLISHED SOURCE.
- I think this ^^ may be symptomatic of the problems you are having. You are not reading things properly but rather jumping to a conclusion without critical thought. I never said The Arm was a copyright violation but rather that you had linked to a copyright violation. The website that you use in the citation appears to be violating copyright, albeit they acknowledge their source, because there is no evidence of permission. Equally, I said that the website is self-published, not the Buffalo News article.
- I appreciate that you are trying but I do think it is an apparent inability fully to comprehend writings and their possible meanings that is landing you with repeated problems. I also don't think it helps that you keep editing the article with these various changes rather than waiting for consensus, and that is something which you have just done again in rephrasing something and removing the associated {{or}} tag. If you look in sections above, and read properly, you will understand why your change doesn't necessarily fix anything that matters. - Sitush (talk) 23:01, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
The Real Teflon Don
Here is the quote from the book:
Some believe the former Magaddino underlings “work” later expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the “family” expanding its operations nationwide.
This is not self published. This is a Buffalo News Journalist and the Contributor is a NYS Trooper who served on the Forest Avenue Boys (Organized Crime Task Force)set up by NYS, because the State didn't trust the FBI field office in Western NY. They thought there was a strong possibility they were in Bed with the Buffalo Mob... BuffCity (talk) 20:09, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Sitush--Please tell me how I screwed this up too!
References
- ^ http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/congratulations-undercover-agent-inducted-into-mafia-in-secret-ceremony-in-canada-captured-on-video-by-police
- ^ Karalus, George . The Real Teflon Don: How An Elite Team of New York State Troopers Helped Take Down America's Most Powerful Mafia Family (Kindle Locations 3539-3541). Cazenovia Books. Kindle Edition.
- You have cited a book published by a company whose primary business is as a bookstore and which seems to print the occasional local piece submitted by local people. That one of the contributors appears to be on one side of a conspiracy theory involving various law enforcement groups does not encourage confidence. - Sitush (talk) 20:18, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Now will you please discuss before making changes to the article because you are creating problems all over the place with this "jump in then ask" mentality. - Sitush (talk) 20:19, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Sitush-Do you understand the Bold Edit Policy? The BOLD, revert, discuss cycle (BRD) is an optional method of reaching consensus. This process is not mandated by Wikipedia policy, but it can be useful for identifying objections, keeping discussion moving forward and helping to break deadlocks. In other situations, you may have better success with alternatives to this approach. Care and diplomacy should be exercised. Some editors will see any reversion as a challenge, so be considerate and patient. Bold editing is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia. All editors are welcome to make positive contributions. When in doubt, edit!BuffCity (talk) 17:08, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Sitush—I suggest you put that section of the article back. You found the bookstore at Cazenovia College in Cazenovia, NY. That is not the publisher in Buffalo.
- Aditionally the author spent 40 years as a journalists for the Buffalo News. He is legit!!! BuffCity (talk) 21:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- I did that with my phone so I hope it is signed correctly. BuffCity (talk) 21:37, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- It is not a conspiracy theory when other well established journalist has a different point of view. It is just a different point of view and should be reflected. BuffCity (talk) 21:43, 17 January 2018 (UTC)BuffCity (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Sitush-Why demean small publishing houses. Are you aware of the economics of publishing a book?
- The mafia is a niche market, andBuffalo is a small market in that niche. It does not compare to NY city or Toronto or Chicago, Philadelphia,... etc. Large publishers will publish books on the mob in these cities because their is a market.
- I don’t think economics should keep people from knowledge. Isn’t this the whole reason for Wiki? Are you comfortable with not making info available because money cannot be made from that info? BuffCity (talk) 21:55, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
- Matt Gryta is a Staff Reporter for the Buffalo News. He has been there 48 years and 9 months. He has journalistic integrity. He is not going to risk that by printing garbage. If he did... he would no longer be with the Buffalo News. But you think because The Buffalo News is a small paper compared to the New York Times—-we probably shouldn’t use it as a source or anyone that has been onvved with the Buffalo News. Here is a link to a page at 1300 Elmwood Buffalo State describing his distinguished career. http://1300elmwood.buffalostate.edu/winter-2013/matt-gryta-ba-69 BuffCity (talk) 22:16, 17 January 2018 (UTC)BuffCity (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Sitush-Matt Gryta at the Buffalo News is the equivalent of Adrian Humphries Canada’s National Post in Toronto. The only difference... Humphries book on Papalia was published by a big publishing company Harper Collins because Toronto is a big market and so a big company can make money publishing it. Matt’s book was published by a small local publishing house in the actual market area, because that is the only way to break even or make a little money. It’s economics. Do you want to economics /money to determine what information is available? BuffCity (talk) 22:31, 17 January 2018 (UTC) BuffCity (talk) 01:56, 18 January 2018 (UTC
Sitush-I contacted the President of this small publishing company. He assured me this is not a self-published book. You may call him as well. His name is James Ostrowski. I will not put his number here... But if I found it... You can. BuffCity (talk) 02:21, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Sitush-Here is a link to an article from the Buffalo News written by Matt Gryta: http://buffalonews.com/2017/04/08/williamsville-man-ticketed-injury-accident-sheridan-drive/
There are many more if you care to check. BuffCity (talk) 02:39, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- I didn't say it was a self-published book. You are not reading, yet again. I am seriously beginning to query your competence now, even if you have enthusiasm in spades. I think you should try editing some others articles, well away from Buffalo and crime, for a while in order to get a better feel for how Wikipedia operates. - Sitush (talk) 05:35, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Sitush-Thing is I already told you the author was a legitimate journalist and you took that section out anyway! A couple of clicks and you could have verified. You just didn’t want to. Instead you find the Cazenovia College Bookstore in Cazenovia, NY. The citation clearly indicated Cazenovia, the Publusher, was located in Buffalo. You were looking for a reason not to keep my edit. That is uncool! Also, your bias against small publishers is absolutely wrong. You should understand the economics of publishing. Just because a publishe is small doesn’t mean they will publish anything. I’ve gotten a feel for how Wikipedia operates and I thank you for that. Does Wikipedia have a policy against small publishers? NO! BuffCity (talk) 12:48, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
@BuffCity - I understand your frustration in regard to sources, but no one will have quarrels with you if you can find reliable sources such as New York Daily News / ABC news etc, I know they aren't the best in reporting organized crime but these are the rules. If you are using sources such as Cosa Nostra blog by Ed Scarpo, they are completely not validated within Wikipedia, also people who follow up on organized crime find him not reliable either. Just a reminder that blogs will never be accepted. I agree that the Buffalo crime family page needs updated and also needs some information added (past and new) ThePlane11 (talk) 12:57, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
@ThePlan11 - Thank you for your comment. I am fairly new to editing and I, now, understand the blog sources will never be accepted. That being said, if a book is not self-published and the authors have significant insight into a subject, I think they should be included. The problem with only using books from large publishing houses is economics. In general, they only publish what will make money. Unfortunately the Mafia, as a subject is a niche market, and Buffalo is a small market city in that small niche. This is why non-self published sources from small publishers should be allowed. The flow of information shouldn't be limited to the economics of the publishing industry. I think Sitush has an issues with small publishers--read his comment on the history section about my edit about the buffalo family in the "new millennium" using the book The Real Teflon Don as a source. I indicated this was not self-published and that the author Matt Gryta was a respected journalist/crime reporter with the Buffalo News. Thanks again for your comment and I appreciate your tone. BuffCity (talk) 17:33, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
- The problem with using books from intensely local publishers is that they are not "independent" in the truest sense of the word, and they are fairly obscure. I do realise all of this must be incredibly frustrating for you but I really do also have major concerns about your use of any source. You are misreading far too many of the comments on this talk page and that gives rise to a concern that you may also be unintentionally misrepresenting what the sources say, eg: by cherrypicking a couple of sentences. It is a common problem - my main interest on Wikipedia relates to India and in particular caste articles, where it is pretty much the norm - but it is a potential problem nonetheless. This is one of the reasons that I suggested you might benefit from contributing elsewhere on the project rather than becoming too obsessed with this single topic: by being exposed to a variety of situations and related comments from other contributors, you would probably gain a better understanding of the issues, both actual and imagined. I'm not trying to discourage you from editing here and, yes, we all make mistakes (or, at least, do things that fail to gain consensus - ha!) from time to time. The Plane11 is basically telling you what has already been said in previous comments, now entangled in the lengthy threads above. Please try to take this a constructive, even though I do realise it must appear otherwise. - Sitush (talk) 01:25, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
@ - Sitush thanks you for your response above. I understand your concern about cherry picking a sentence or two. Please understand I have each of those books and have read each two to theee times. (Except then DiCarlo First Family of Crime Volume 2—still working my way through it.) You are right each author is not completely “independent” (I know you were speaking of publishers-but no publisher can ensure total independence. Indeed if they did, their would be little interest in the books published.)
What I am trying tobsayvis each author has their own point of view. But each brings sunstantial understanding to the whole. This is why an article needs to reflect the diversity that is in print. That diversity adds to the understanding of the topic as a whole.
I hope you understand my concern with what you said about small publishers. Your comment seemed to indicate they all will print anything - as long as it not illegal for them to do so. That may be true of a few, but not the majority. A book should not be dismissed, because it comes from a small or local publisher. It should be accepted or dismissed on its own merit or lack there of.
Anyway, I believe bringing information from many sources will give a better and more well rounded understanding of the whole. That is what I am trying to stick up for. I hope you understand. BuffCity (talk) 02:15, 19 January 2018 (UTC)
No problem. Help me on the Five Families if you like as I'm trying to update it. Try here for the most recent Mob information - http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=8&page=1 - and the US department of justice website is also very fresh. ThePlane11 (talk) 10:42, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
- Do what? Web discussion forums etc are not reliable sources, and US government sources are primary and so need to be treated with care. Does anyone involved in this subject area actually understand our policies? It seems to be chock-full of speculative and unreliable sourcing. - Sitush (talk) 11:10, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't speaking to you so mind your business. I don't have to explain myself but I will in this case, I never said use it as a source, I said use it to find information. Again mind your own business. Also I've used the US justice department as a source to cover recent American Mafia arrests. I'm trying to solve this issue and help you Sitush but you'd rather bicker and act in a pathetic manner. No wonder there is no progress here. ThePlane11 (talk) 12:47, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I understand the policies, if you actually cared to look at what I typed to BuffCity previously. I wasn't acting like an arrogant child such as yourself. Is it only Conservatives who care about mannerism? I admire BuffCity because he is trying to improve the article whereas you've offered little to none assistance. As I said I understand the policies but as I ALSO said they aren't the best such as calling Michael Franzese "a boss" whereas he was a Capo, by your standards calling him a boss would be fine because ABC reported it, even though it wouldn't be logical. That's the point I'm making. BuffCity & others who will click onto the website, I meant find the RELIABLE information and then try to find a matching and "wikipedia standard source" , thanks. ThePlane11 (talk) 12:53, 22 January 2018 (UTC)