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== New Image: painting by [[Edvard Munch]] == |
== New Image: painting by [[Edvard Munch]] == |
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[[file:Munch, Jugend am Meer (1904, Linde Frieze) 02.jpg|thumb|right|450px|[[Edvard Munch]]: ''Young People on the Beach (Jugend am Meer)'' (1904). A painting that is part the ''Linde Frieze'', a series commissioned by [[Max Linde]]. According to the [[art historian]] [[Nic. Stang|Nicolay Stang]] the painting shows the “inability to make contact with one another”<ref>[[Nic. Stang|Nicolay Stang]]: ''Edvard Munch'', J. G. Tanum Forlag, Oslo 1972, ISBN 978-8251800105, p. 177.</ref> thus being consistent with a major symptom of BPD (see main text). In modern times, Munch has been diagnosed by psychiatrists as having had BPD, including by an authority in the field, [[James F. Masterson]].<ref>[[James F. Masterson]]: ''Search For The Real Self. Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age'', Chapter 12: The Creative Solution: Sartre, Munch, and Wolfe, p. 208–230, Simon and Schuster, New York 1988, ISBN 1451668910, p. 212-213.</ref><ref>Tove Aarkrog: ''Edvard Munch: the life of a person with borderline personality as seen through his art'', Lundbeck Pharma A/S, Denmark 1990, ISBN 8798352415.</ref>]] |
[[file:Munch, Jugend am Meer (1904, Linde Frieze) 02.jpg|thumb|right|450px|[[Edvard Munch]]: ''Young People on the Beach (Jugend am Meer)'' (1904). A painting that is part the ''Linde Frieze'', a series commissioned by [[Max Linde]]. According to the [[art historian]] [[Nic. Stang|Nicolay Stang]] the painting shows the “inability to make contact with one another”<ref>[[Nic. Stang|Nicolay Stang]]: ''Edvard Munch'', J. G. Tanum Forlag, Oslo 1972, ISBN 978-8251800105, p. 177.</ref> thus being consistent with a major symptom of BPD (see main text). In modern times, Munch has been diagnosed by psychiatrists as having had BPD, including by an authority in the field, [[James F. Masterson]].<ref>[[James F. Masterson]]: ''Search For The Real Self. Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age'', Chapter 12: The Creative Solution: Sartre, Munch, and Wolfe, p. 208–230, Simon and Schuster, New York 1988, ISBN 1451668910, p. 212-213.</ref><ref>Tove Aarkrog: ''Edvard Munch: the life of a person with borderline personality as seen through his art'', Lundbeck Pharma A/S, Denmark 1990, ISBN 8798352415.</ref>]] |
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[[file:Vincent Willem van Gogh 002.jpg|thumb|right|250px|For comparison from [[Major depressive disorder]] with this caption: Vincent van Gogh's 1890 painting ''Sorrowing old man ('At Eternity's Gate')'']] |
[[file:Vincent Willem van Gogh 002.jpg|thumb|right|250px|For comparison from [[Major depressive disorder]] with this caption: Vincent van Gogh's 1890 painting ''Sorrowing old man ('At Eternity's Gate')'']] |
Revision as of 14:00, 15 January 2016
Borderline personality disorder was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||||||||
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Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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New source
Hello,
There is a cochrane review on psychological therapies for people with borderline PD. It concludes that psychotherapies are beneficial. This citation could be added as an additional supplement to the section on treatment.
New Image: painting by Edvard Munch
Not sure what it has to do with BPD? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 13:30, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
- Here the answer: The image was greeted with a warm welcome on the German sister site some months ago and has not been met by one single objection since. Young persons are the major group of those affected by the disease. Here, on the painting, they are - each on their own - sitting at the border between land and sea and looking out. Munch is known for his psychologically inclined paintings. I hope this is sufficient for an explanation. Could you please reinstall the image? You would do a service to many of those affected.--Saidmann (talk) 14:39, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- What kind of "support" would you like to read? By the way, there is an equivalent case in Major depressive disorder. Here the painting by van Gogh has been there for a long time. How can you accept the van Gogh but reject the Munch? In both cases there is an equally indirect connection between disease and painting. But that's what paintings are all about. They are indirect, but thought provoking. To use such paintings is established practice in WP, and IMO a good practice.--Saidmann (talk) 14:52, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Nobody can see on the van Gogh painting that the artist was depressed. It is not even mentioned in the legend. Many painters suffered from depression. Can this be a reason to put up any of their paintings? No, the reason why the van Gogh is established in Major depressive disorder is the content of the painting. If you are still certain that you must revert the edit, I will present the issue in front of a panel of experts.--Saidmann (talk) 15:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- agree w/ DocJames--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:17, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- If you can find an WP:RS specifically associating this work, or at least the period in the artist's life, with BPD, then a carefully captioned image might be ok. This is probably possible. But just adding it as it was is not ok. Johnbod (talk) 17:26, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Sorry, I do not understand this. In Major depressive disorder there is nothing in the caption of the van Gogh painting that might link it to depression. Nor is there anything in the text. There is not even anything in the Vincent van Gogh article that says that the artist himself suffered from the disease. And there is no knowledge about such a connection, either. The van Gogh painting has been in Major depressive disorder for at least four years. The only relation to the subject of the article lies in the image itself, nowhere else. And this relation is an indirect one, as in almost all paintings. I see no difference whatsoever between the van Gogh case and the Munch case. The service of these paintings, as placed in the articles, lies in widening the views of the readers. I can see no negative effects.--Saidmann (talk) 18:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS Johnbod (talk) 18:29, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- I have previously seen Munch's The Scream used to characterize both depression and schizophrenia, so I am not surprised to see another Munch painting here.
- I am not convinced that Youth at the Sea is a suitable representation for borderline personality disorder.
- Incidentally, I am also not convinced that van Gogh's Sorrowing old man is a suitable representation for major depressive disorder. There is no evidence to show that the painting is intended to convey that implication. Indeed there is evidence that van Gogh had bipolar depression, not major depressive disorder. (I am aware that the article has passed FAC.) However the connection between van Gogh's painting and major depressive disorder is certainly less tenuous than that between Youth at the Sea and borderline personality disorder. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:15, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
- Images do not speak. But they can suggest something. The young people are not only "hanging out", but they also show no signs of interaction. They all look isolated, even though close to each other. The van Gogh does not say "sorrowing" either. That may be a suggestion. The man may just be tired. But - objectively - the image has the inherent quality to possibly suggest "sorrow". Likewise the Munch has - objectively - the inherent quality to possibly suggest feelings of "empty" and "lost".--Saidmann (talk) 20:15, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Try a RfC. This is not enough "According to the art historian Nicolay Stang the painting shows the “inability to make contact with one another". It does not say it shows young people with the symptoms of borderline personality disorder. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- The art historian was not a psychiatrist. He said what the subject of the painting was. Also, in 1972 the term BPD was not yet in use. The art historian does not diagnose people on a painting, but describes a situation of difficulties as shown on a painting, which clearly is symptomatic for BPD. This is the closest connection that can be found between a painting and a mental disorder, and it is much stronger than the one in the van Gogh case. The image is now one of the best referenced ones you can find in WP. The van Gogh is not referenced at all.--Saidmann (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
- What a great and evocative image. I agree that it shouldn't be placed prominently on this article. I would however would support its placement in eg the "Society and culture" section, where as you state an attempted and sourced depiction of BPD would be of benefit. Another article which may benefit is something like Loneliness. --Tom (LT) (talk) 19:50, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
- Comment. The description near the top of this discussion includes the phrase "sitting at the border between land and sea". I can't tell if this is relevant while I don't understand why the condition is so named. If I heard someone say "Steve has borderline personality disorder", I would until today have thought they meant "Steve almost has a personality disorder, maybe, not quite". The article does not give any explanation for the name, but says "There is an ongoing debate about the terminology of this disorder, especially the suitability of the word 'borderline'"; and gives two references: the first is not currently accessible, and the second does not, as far as I can find, discuss the nomenclature. If I ever learn why the word "borderline" is in the name, I may feel qualified to !vote here. Maproom (talk) 09:42, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- The answer is in the history section. The original idea of Hughes (1884) was that there were symptons falling on a borderline between sanity and insanity. In the definitions of recent decades the term - and thus the old idea - was kept, despite modern diagnostic criteria.--Saidmann (talk) 14:50, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
Sure I could see putting it in the history or society and culture section. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:12, 24 December 2015 (UTC)
- First, I agree that the painting makes a very powerful impression. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A whiter shade (talk • contribs) 00:29, 30 December 2015 (UTC) But I also feel its place would rather illustrate Loneliness, as Tom (LT) suggested. It might be an interseting idea to include a subcategory like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:People_with_borderline_personality_disorder or a reference to it. The best picture for this purpose is actually not one by Munch (who, surprisingly, is not on the list), but by Van Gogh: His famous Self-Portrait with his bandaged ear: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh's_health#/media/File:Vincent_Willem_van_Gogh_106.jpg. which is an alternative to this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selbstverletzendes_Verhalten#/media/File:Auto-Mutilation.JPG. In any case, I would very much appreciate some illustration. Have some nice last days in 2015! --A whiter shade (talk) 01:23, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
- I agree with Tom (LT) that "inability to make contact with one another" is a symptom of further disorders, as well. So it may not be specific enough here, and a painting showing this trait may not be the best choice. Therefore I took a very specific trait of BPD - idealization and devaluation of others in personal relations - and selected paintings by Munch that have been associated with just this BPD trait in the professional literature. I assume that this solution will be widely considered appropriate for the opening section of the article. Thanks to all for the discussion leading to this outcome.--Saidmann (talk) 18:27, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
New Image: painting by Vincent Willem van Gogh
New Years Resolution: Hope to improve my latest edits, the picture, plus Munchs "From hell", if nobody minds. --A whiter shade (talk) 11:15, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
- Vincent Willem van Gogh has only been associated with BPD once (by one author), and that happened in Dutch only. Others have suggested many other diagnoses for van Gogh. So I deleted the van Gogh painting.--Saidmann (talk) 19:16, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
Grammar
Good Morning and a very Happy New Year! I hope someone can cope with the following syntactical questions: "People noted to have BPD include Jim Morrison, Amy Winehouse and Michael Jackson.[180] The painters Vincent van Gogh has retrospectively been given the condition[181] as had Edward Munch.", taken from the most recent changes on the article,see https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Borderline_personality_disorder&oldid=697708528. Being no native speaker of English, these words in Bold text strike me as suboptimal: Shouldn`t it be "have had" (Past Perfect, since the artists are dead) and "painter" for reasons of "concord" (grammatical cohesion)and "has" instead of "had"? Correct me if I am wrong. --A whiter shade (talk) 11:56, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
- ^ . doi:10.1002/14651858.CD005652.pub2.
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(help) - ^ Nicolay Stang: Edvard Munch, J. G. Tanum Forlag, Oslo 1972, ISBN 978-8251800105, p. 177.
- ^ James F. Masterson: Search For The Real Self. Unmasking The Personality Disorders Of Our Age, Chapter 12: The Creative Solution: Sartre, Munch, and Wolfe, p. 208–230, Simon and Schuster, New York 1988, ISBN 1451668910, p. 212-213.
- ^ Tove Aarkrog: Edvard Munch: the life of a person with borderline personality as seen through his art, Lundbeck Pharma A/S, Denmark 1990, ISBN 8798352415.