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::Regarding the surces added they fit perfectly what I modified. I demonstrated that even the most partizan and biased sources like Rusinow's don't give them the false label of collaboarationist without explain a deeper definition of what they was for real. You can't call the Chetniks ''a collaborationist'' movement. It's a tendentious statement. The Chetniks were firstly a royalist anti-communist force, fighting either against communist partizan and against Axis occupiers. Then in some fuzzy occasions it seems they prefer to wait or not to oppose Axis initiatives in order to gain advantage on the communists partizan. |
::Regarding the surces added they fit perfectly what I modified. I demonstrated that even the most partizan and biased sources like Rusinow's don't give them the false label of collaboarationist without explain a deeper definition of what they was for real. You can't call the Chetniks ''a collaborationist'' movement. It's a tendentious statement. The Chetniks were firstly a royalist anti-communist force, fighting either against communist partizan and against Axis occupiers. Then in some fuzzy occasions it seems they prefer to wait or not to oppose Axis initiatives in order to gain advantage on the communists partizan. |
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::All this explanations to let me do little changes in two lines of the article.. Are we sure is this the right way? - [[User:Theirrulez|Theirrulez]] ([[User talk:Theirrulez|talk]]) 15:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC) |
::All this explanations to let me do little changes in two lines of the article.. Are we sure is this the right way? - [[User:Theirrulez|Theirrulez]] ([[User talk:Theirrulez|talk]]) 15:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC) |
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:::If you like I can revert you too? |
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:::*1) '''''One''''' (1) person reverting you is more than enough, and anyway you need to actually start edit-warring before more people can revert you. |
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:::*2) It also does not matter if you call your buddies in and they restore your edit as well, that's called [[WP:MEAT]]. |
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:::*3) And NO, ''we'' are not supposed to discuss prior to reverting you, its actually '''''you''''' who needs to start a discussion. Not only are '''you''' usually required to do so, you are often on some articles actually required to discuss an edit '''''prior''''' to inserting it. These articles have the <nowiki>{{Controversial}}</nowiki> tag. If you read it very very carefully, you'll notice it states "''Please discuss substantial changes here '''before''' making them''". |
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:::Also, you do not know what [[WP:OWN]] means so do not run around accusing people they "OWN" articles just because you think they do. --<font face="Eras Bold ITC">[[User:DIREKTOR|<font color="DimGray">DIREKTOR</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:DIREKTOR|<font color="Gray">TALK</font>]])</sup></font> 16:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 16:17, 4 June 2010
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Archive 1 - through 2009 |
Chetniks BETRAYED by their western allies??
WTF Herr DIREKTOR?!? What's wrong with my edit which states that the allies abandoned the Chetniks (meaning stopped supporting them) due to their collaboration with the Axis powers? Tomifly (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
I waited long enough. You can check Western betrayal for more detail ;) Tomifly (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
- Herr Tomifly, nobody "abandoned" let alone "betrayed" the Chetniks. The Chetniks were found to be collaborating with the Axis occupation in 1943. Subsequently, the Allies recognized the Partisans as the Yugoslav military at the Tehran Conference. By the Vis agreement (1944), the King of Yugoslavia and the Yugoslav government-in-exile also shifted their support to the Partisans. In other words, the Chetniks "betrayed" the King by collaborating with his enemies, and were accordingly stripped of their recognition. I recommend you educate yourself as to the facts regarding the Chetnik movement.
- Furthermore, even if you were correct (and you are NOT), your completely biased sentence is not for an encyclopedia. I won't be drawn into a long discussion where I convince you of the obvious, read up on the subject matter in the Chetniks article pls. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:31, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Unbelievable... You undo my deletion of the 'betrayal' part of the sentence and now you suggest that I should educate myself??
Article history proves me right and you can go on discussing my neutrality with all the Ustashe and Chetniks in your head or whatever...:roll:
Tomifly (talk) 11:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh yea, I'm actually OK with omitting the whole sentence since the details on their role can be found in the Chetniks article. They were in fact supported by the Allies for quite a long time, but eventually abandoned due to collaboration with Germans and Italians.
Tomifly (talk) 12:07, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- The Chetnik movement collaborated, i.e. committed high treason, in other words, they were the traitors, not the "betrayed". Be sure that nowhere on Wiki will it be stated that the Chetniks were "betrayed" or "abandoned" by the Allies. The Allies were under no obligation whatsoever to the Chetnik movement, since both the Allied powers, the King, and the Yugoslav government had nothing to do with them at all. Quite the contrary, they were required by standing law to hand them over to the Yugoslav military. Read the Axis collaboration section of the Chetniks article for more information (you will find the scholarly sources are listed there as well). --DIREKTOR (TALK) 12:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Right... My English may not be perfect but if the Chetnik article states (Early activities): The British liaison to Mihajlović advised London to stop supplying the Chetniks after their assistance in the German attack on Užice (see First anti-Partisan Offensive), but Britain continued to do so.[1]
...then, and this is just my casual observation, the Allies DID support them and later (in 1943) stopped doing that when their intelligence confirmed the Chetniks did not really fight the Germans anymore (article on Chetniks, section Loss of support and final years). Whether it can be said that the Allies 'abandoned' Chetniks, it really is a linguistic technicality...
...both the Allied powers, the King, and the Yugoslav government had nothing to do with them at all.
The article Peter II of Yugoslavia, and scholarly references therein, disagree ;) Tomifly (talk) 15:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
- Are you serious? :) Let me get this straight, you claim the Allies "betrayed" the Chetniks because they supported them at one time, and then stopped due to Chetnik collaboration (treason, if you want to get legal)?? Once again: we all know the Chetniks were supported at one time, and then that support was abolished. This is plainly NOT "betrayal" or "abandonment" in and of itself. In fact, the Chetniks lost their support because they betrayed the Allies. This is what the "World War II" section of the Peter II of Yugoslavia article states. I should know, I helped to write it. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:17, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I claim that the Allies betrayed the Chetniks and this is obvious from the fact that my first edit was to delete the betrayal part of the sentence on Chetniks.
Perfect logic, Pt 1.
If, as you say, the Chetniks betrayed the Allies then, obviously, they previously had some kind of agreement between them and if they did then the discontinued support may be qualified as abandonment due to breach of contract or whatever we may wish to call it.
Good logic, Pt 2.
Btw., if, as you say now, we all know the Chetniks were supported by the Allies at one time then, naturally, your prior statement that the Allied powers had nothing to do with them at all, is not correct ;)
You are also completely wrong that the King Peter II and the Yugoslav government had nothing to do with the Chetniks! The government in exile appointed General Draža Mihailović Minister of the Army, Navy and Air Force and both the King and the cabinet tried to persuade the British and Americans to support them (only the British did till 1943).
Check Tomasevich's book, Chapter 8. Tomasevich, Jozo; War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: The Chetniks, Volume 1; Stanford University Press, 1975 [1]
So, this is a very nice opportunity for you, young man, to educate yourself to some verifiable historical facts..;)
Enjoy.
Tomifly (talk) 21:51, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Faulting the British Royal Army
The Geneva Convention does not in any way excuse the British from their obligation, per the Hague Convention, to repatriate all Yugoslav citizens serving in Axis formations to Yugoslavia. The two things are obviously completely separate and do not at all contradict each other. The Geneva Convention grants the NDH military personnel POW status upon capture, and the Hague Convention obligates all Allied powers to repatriate those captured to Yugoslavia. All this is the most obvious, the most basic logic.
Somebody used weasel words to imply that somehow because the NDH signed the Geneva Convention, the British were not obligated to repatriate them - thus effectively implying the culpability of the British Royal Army in the killings, something like: "even though the NDH signed the Geneva Convention its troops were handed over to the Yugoslav military". Clever, but not clever enough. OzCro, do I need a citation stating that the Geneva Convention (granting POV status) does not supersede the Hague Convention (repatriation)? Or does the fact that the two things are completely unrelated matter at all... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 15:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Edit War
I removed this text, the subject of an edit war. Get references and discuss the best version here.
version 1:
During that time, the Allied forces of DF Yugoslavia, the Partisans, summarily executed (for treason and collaboration) an unknown number of persons from the retreating columns of Nazi collaborationist forces previously in power in parts of occupied Yugoslavia. The columns were for the most part made-up of remnants of the Ustaše party of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) (a fascist puppet state of the Nazi regime in Germany, established in occupied Yugoslavia) and the remnants of the Chetnik movement (a collaborating royalist force, consisting of ethnic Serbs and Montenegrins). The number of casualties has proven difficult to ascertain, with exact numbers being a subject of much debate. The events took place after the formal end of World War II in Europe, but at a time when hostilities on the Yugoslav front were still on, due to the goal of the local Axis forces to fend off the Yugoslav advance and to retreat towards the western Allies.
version 2:
During that time, the Allied forces of DF Yugoslavia, the Partisans, summarily executed an unknown number of persons from the retreating columns that were for the most part made-up of remnants of the Ustaše party of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) (a fascist puppet state of the Nazi regime in Germany, established in occupied Yugoslavia) and the remnants of the Chetnik movement (a royalist force), but there were many civilians as well. The number of casualties has proven difficult to ascertain, with exact numbers being a subject of much debate. The events took place after the formal end of World War II in Europe, but at a time when hostilities on the Yugoslav front were still on, due to the goal of the local Axis forces to fend off the Yugoslav advance and to retreat towards the western Allies.
Happy talking. --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:30, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Pontificalibus, this article is extremely controversial, every week there's one Balkans nationalist IP making nonsense edits. Its a matter of course to revert nationalist IP edits. This is not a genuine content dispute. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Then you can find some references to support your version of the above paragraph? It won't be so easy to change it to say something contrary to the citations. As it is now, with no references, it could be totally made up. --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Usually the page just gets semi-protected when these sort of outbursts flare up, it should be semi-protected now as well. I repeat: this is not a content dispute, the IP does not dispure the factuality of the statements, but merely removes them because he does not like them. Let me illustrate (if you've noticed which text the IP removed): 1) "(for treason and collaboration)" The prisoners were retreating in a column of collaborationist units, the captured POWs were summarily (illegally) executed for - collaboration, certainly not for grand theft auto. 2) Yes, the military in those columns most certainly belonged to the Chetniks and the Independent State of Croatia, both collaborationist forces, not the Tibetan Royal Army. 3) The Chetniks were made-up of Serbs and Montenegrins, that too is as basic as it gets.
- What is there to debate? The IP simply does not like the wording so he/she removed those part of the text that did not appeal to him, and then started edit-warring over the subject. I've mediated my share of disputes, and I know that the first thing one has to scream at the "bickering goons" is: gimme sources!! :) However, this is not a content dispute, its like the twenty-fifth IP edit-warring to remove facts he does not like. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:05, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- Then you can find some references to support your version of the above paragraph? It won't be so easy to change it to say something contrary to the citations. As it is now, with no references, it could be totally made up. --Pontificalibus (talk) 22:42, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
This IP is also the only IP to edit the page this year.
Regardless of the previous history of the page edits, references are needed for the following statements. By having these references, the validity of this IPs changes would be self-evident.:
"the Partisans, summarily executed (for treason and collaboration) an unknown number of persons from the retreating columns of Nazi collaborationist forces previously in power in parts of occupied Yugoslavia."
- a reference here would show who the Partisans summarily executed, and what for.
" The columns were for the most part made-up of remnants of the Ustaše party of the Independent State of Croatia (NDH) (a fascist puppet state of the Nazi regime in Germany, established in occupied Yugoslavia) and the remnants of the Chetnik movement (a collaborating royalist force, consisting of ethnic Serbs and Montenegrins)."
- a reference here would show what the columns were made up from, and that they contained no civilians (if that was the case).
Also, this is clearly a content dispute, although you may think it involves disruptive editing it is not vandalism. --Pontificalibus (talk) 23:19, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
- The general composition of the columns is well known. The vast majority were military, though they did have an unknown proportion of civilians. The military included the following: 1) units of the Independent State of Croatia, 2) units of the Chetnik movement (the movement was radical Serbian nationalist, and was indeed composed almost exclusively of Serbs and Montenegrins), 3) units of the Slovene Home Guard. These are all, naturally, Yugoslav Axis troops. In other words, collaborationist troops (collaboration in Yugoslavia was very, very widespread, perhaps more than anywhere else in occupied Europe).
- "Who?" and "what for?" 1) Who? The POWs naturally, who else? That much we do not need a source for (but a claim that civilians from the columns were summarily executed should be sourced prior to inclusion). 2) What for? Again I do not see the logic of the question? They killed the POWs because they belonged to collaborationist formations, what else would they kill them for? Bad breath? (distasteful, I know, but I hope you take my point)
- This info is not something to debate, its probably sourced in one of the references in the article already, and its so completely basic when talking about this issue that I can't imagine a discussion on this. You may have gained the false impression due to the relative obscurity of the subject matter, but from where I stand, its as basic as the color of the sky. :) --DIREKTOR (TALK) 11:40, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
Recent edits
- It is not correct to describe the document 'Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes' as having any connection with the European Commission. It was published by the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union, in other words the Slovenian government, at that time led by Janez Janša, whose feelings and beliefs on these matters are well known. The event in Brussels in 2008 was held jointly by the European Commission and the Slovenian Presidency of the Council, but the briefing document was prepared by the Slovenian Presidency alone.
- The stuff sourced from Ferenc is wrong. Mitja Ferenc himself is no impartial source; he and Dežman have, as is well documented, spent numerous years running around the Slovenian countryside whipping up hysteria with their wild claims about secret graves and victims. The facts are that there are currently 581 sites that have been listed as worthy of investigation. Of these, at a few places, excavations have been completed, at some others, excavations are partially completed, but at the overwhelming majority, no work at all has yet been carried out at all. Therefore, it is possible that every site in the 581 could be a mass grave, or at the other extreme all of the sites listed where no work has yet been done could be empty. Nobody knows. It is all just wild speculation. As an example, we need look no further than Tezno, where 1,179 bodies were recovered in 1997, and Dežman gave ill-advised and highly emotive quotes to the media, mentioning a figure of 15,000 bodies at that site alone, that "It just might be that the greatest crime of the period following World War II will be uncovered in the mass grave in Tezno, one that even surpasses that of Srebrenica" [2] amongst other such stuff. Unfortunately for him and Ferenc, excavations at the site in the years since have uncovered not much of any substance at all. The stuff from Ferenc about 3,986 graves is something of a sleight of hand: the overwhelming majority of the 3,986 are graves of those on all sides of the conflict (from individuals killed in military action to the graves of villagers executed by the Germans in mass reprisals, of which there were many) who died during the war, not after it. Ferenc is trying to conflate all these numbers into anti-Communist propaganda.
- I don't intend to edit war to change this stuff. I will, at this stage, leave it to the editors who put it there to correct it. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 10:53, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I can express my comment just on first point. If you referred to the Council of Europe resolution 1481 of jNUry 2006, it wasn't voted under Slovenian Presidency. If you instead referred to the "Report on Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes" in 2008, it's important to underline that it was prepared on the basis of "The Berlin declaration" adopted on 25 March 2007 (under German presidency of UE) which moreover stated that "European integration shows that we have learnt the painful lessons of a history marked by bloody conflict". Altough even if the following hearing took place during Slovenian presidency of EU, it was written, related, and introduced by non-Slovenian authors, such as Jacques Barrot, Vice-President of the European Commission for Justice, Freedom and Security. The hearing was sponsored by members Council of the European Union (January–June 2008) and the European Commission, whose chairman was (the actual) José Manuel Barroso, portoguese; the hearing contents and statements was accepted without any reserve by 27 Countries members of the Union. --Theirrulez (talk) 20:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- What makes you think I may have been talking about Resolution 1481? Where did you get that idea? I was, obviously, clearly, specifically, by name, referring to the document 'Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes' which has recently been added as a 'source' to this article. By the way, 1481 cannot possibly have had any connection whatsoever with the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union, as it is a resolution passed (although not by the required 2/3 majority) by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, a body unconnected in any way whatsoever with the EU. Oops. Oh dear. The document we are referring to was prepared and published by the Slovenian Presidency. The hearing in Brussels was organised by the Commission and the Slovenian Presidency jointly. It is important to be clear about the differences involved and to bear them in mind. Let's please stay on topic and avoid muddle. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- In fact, escluding the 1481 (IMHO also related), I clearified that I consider the "Report on crimes committed by totalitarian regimes" a pertinent link for this article. Moreover the Slovenian-friendly aspect of the hearing on crimes by totalitarian regimes belongs to your point of view: I just felt free to explain why it should be consider reliable, neutral and pertinent. I'm not the one who added the link, so kindly try to not be so rude. --Theirrulez (talk) 22:30, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- What makes you think I may have been talking about Resolution 1481? Where did you get that idea? I was, obviously, clearly, specifically, by name, referring to the document 'Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes' which has recently been added as a 'source' to this article. By the way, 1481 cannot possibly have had any connection whatsoever with the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union, as it is a resolution passed (although not by the required 2/3 majority) by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, a body unconnected in any way whatsoever with the EU. Oops. Oh dear. The document we are referring to was prepared and published by the Slovenian Presidency. The hearing in Brussels was organised by the Commission and the Slovenian Presidency jointly. It is important to be clear about the differences involved and to bear them in mind. Let's please stay on topic and avoid muddle. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I can express my comment just on first point. If you referred to the Council of Europe resolution 1481 of jNUry 2006, it wasn't voted under Slovenian Presidency. If you instead referred to the "Report on Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes" in 2008, it's important to underline that it was prepared on the basis of "The Berlin declaration" adopted on 25 March 2007 (under German presidency of UE) which moreover stated that "European integration shows that we have learnt the painful lessons of a history marked by bloody conflict". Altough even if the following hearing took place during Slovenian presidency of EU, it was written, related, and introduced by non-Slovenian authors, such as Jacques Barrot, Vice-President of the European Commission for Justice, Freedom and Security. The hearing was sponsored by members Council of the European Union (January–June 2008) and the European Commission, whose chairman was (the actual) José Manuel Barroso, portoguese; the hearing contents and statements was accepted without any reserve by 27 Countries members of the Union. --Theirrulez (talk) 20:57, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
I agree, the comments made by User:AlasdairGreen27 are POV.
Dear readers the information below is taken from: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/events/events_2008_en.htm
European Hearing: "Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes" On 8 April 2008 a European Hearing entitled "crimes committed by totalitarian regimes" took place in Brussels. This was organised jointly by the Slovenian Presidency of the European Union and the European Commission around the two key issues of recognition of the crimes and reconciliation.
The aim of the Hearing was to contribute to attaining a greater knowledge of these complex issues and to enable an exchange of views between independent experts, representatives of national institutes and NGOs dealing with these issues.
Member States, Members of the European Parliament and representatives of the Council of Europe were also present.
Agenda PDF File 47 KB
Results: Memo PDF File 13 KB Introductory Speech of:
- Jacques Barrot, Vice-President of the European Commission PDF File 26 KB
- Summary of the closing remarks of Jonathan Faull, European Commission, Director General, Directorate-General for Justice, Freedom and Security PDF File 19 KB
- EUROPA EU. Press Releases-Brussels
- The report itself: Link provided here EUROPEAN Public Hearing on Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regime (2008 ; Bruxelles).
Finnaly, if you think that the source is unreliable please take the matter to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Thank you! Sir Floyd (talk) 01:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well hello everyone! :) Mind if I join in? (rhetorical question) Its "Sir Floyd & Theirrulez forever" it seems. Lets clarify one thing from the outset - this is a highly controversial, extremely serious issue. Not exactly Dalmatian (dog), if you catch my drift. Sources are high-quality only as defined by WP:SOURCE. This means:
- published (preferably by a peer-review university publishing house)
- unbiased (that usually means NOT the poor-quality unprofessional dribble from ex-Yugoslavia)
- scholarly (i.e. written by professionals in the field, historians, sociologists, etc.)
- If there is any doubt whatsoever that a source is not neutral on this - its not for this article. These events are the subject of innumerable junk publications in ex-Yugoslavia each making extravagant claims one way or the other, and each contradicting the other. Each offering "the real truth" of these events - when in fact we're not even completely sure they took place. Finding bodies in a zone of Nazi mass killings and anti-resistance reprisals ("1,000 Slavs for each dead German"), for example, is hardly "damning" evidence.
- If there is a scrap of information that is not sourced - it goes.
- If the information is sourced - do not remove it (esp. without discussion).
- --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Are we discussing about reliability of sources from Higher Institutions of European Community? Anyone can tell me if we are doing that? I would have something better to do, so if someone can answer me... --Theirrulez (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Theirrulez, I simply pointed out that you introduced something (1481) that is absolutely unrelated to the recent edits to this article, and asked for this discussion to remain on topic, namely the recent edits to this article. If you feel that is rude, then I am sorry you feel that way.
- Sir Floyd, you are editing this and other articles to say that the document prepared by the Slovenian Presidency was the work of the European Commission. Please desist, as this is untrue.
- Moreover, in the additional links you have provided above, the Commission deals with the hearing with the utmost caution. Typical of this are the remarks by Jonathan Faull, who is very careful to distance the Commission from what he refers to as "your hearing" (not "our", you'll note). He says "The initial challenge for the Commission and the Slovenian presidency was to gather you all here with your different points of view... The full detail of your debates cannot be summed up here... The aim of this Hearing was to listen, and it is too soon for me now to make comments on the ideas and proposals that some of you have put forward today... To avoid any misunderstanding, it is important to remember that the European Union cannot replace Member States in this task. As Vice-President Jacques Barrot stressed this morning, the European Union has very few powers in this area. The role of the EU is to facilitate this process by encouraging discussion, fostering the sharing of experience and best practices, and bringing the various players together... Many of the initiatives presented today are beyond the EU’s powers" and so on and so on. This is very explicit, especially in terms of the language usually used by the Commission.
- Nobody is questioning the reliability of these documents. This is a red herring. The point, as I am sure you are aware, is that they are not what you claim them to be. Please address this issue forthwith. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 07:24, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- You said, in poor words, that the hearing has not usual reliability of EU institutions, because that time Slovenia held the presidency? It seems a complex syllogism.--Theirrulez (talk) 07:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Where did I say anything of the kind??? I'm mystified. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 07:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- You said, in poor words, that the hearing has not usual reliability of EU institutions, because that time Slovenia held the presidency? It seems a complex syllogism.--Theirrulez (talk) 07:34, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Are we discussing about reliability of sources from Higher Institutions of European Community? Anyone can tell me if we are doing that? I would have something better to do, so if someone can answer me... --Theirrulez (talk) 03:49, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well hello everyone! :) Mind if I join in? (rhetorical question) Its "Sir Floyd & Theirrulez forever" it seems. Lets clarify one thing from the outset - this is a highly controversial, extremely serious issue. Not exactly Dalmatian (dog), if you catch my drift. Sources are high-quality only as defined by WP:SOURCE. This means:
Please read and notice the word jointly.
(taken from: http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/news/events/events_2008_en.htm)
European Hearing: "Crimes Committed by Totalitarian Regimes"
- On 8 April 2008 a European Hearing entitled "crimes committed by totalitarian regimes" took place in Brussels. This was organised jointly by the Slovenian Presidency of the European Union and the European Commission around the two key issues of recognition of the crimes and reconciliation. Sir Floyd (talk) 08:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Sir Floyd, the point I am making is that there is a difference between the briefing document prepared by the Slovenian presidency and the hearing, organised by the Slovenian presidency and the Commission jointly (although the Commission representative Jonathan Faull was very careful to distance the Commission from the content). Now, will you address this simple point or not? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 08:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Copied from the document:
- Reports and proceedings of the 8 April European public hearing on “Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes, organised by the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union (January–June 2008) and the European Commission. Notice the word Report, It is on the document itself.
- You should say it was published by: Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union & etc. Issue addressed.
My citation on the article: European Public Hearing on Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes, organised by theSlovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union (January–June 2008) and the European Commission. (As per document). I'll check my other ones and if they are not per document, I'll change them. Sir Floyd (talk) 08:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hey, you were right about one thing, I did shorten it to European Commission (because the whole thing is to long). I've made the corrections, thanks, I'm impressed. Anyway sincerely, if you think the Report is a unreliable source please take the matter to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Sir Floyd (talk) 09:14, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- My friend, I'm not saying the report is an unreliable source. I have never said that. The question I am raising (and I thought I had been abundantly clear about this) is that the hearing was organised jointly by the European Commission and the Slovenian Presidency. The report on the hearing containing the views of contributors was, however, nothing to do with the Commission. It was the work of the Presidency. In no way can the views expressed in the document be interpreted as being the views of the Commission. Moreover, Faull works very hard to make this abundantly clear. I believe your recent edits adding this source are unclear on this point. In my first post in this section I promised that I would not edit war to change your edits. I am sure we can find a form of wording that we can all be happy with. Best, AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 09:28, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Hey, you were right about one thing, I did shorten it to European Commission (because the whole thing is to long). I've made the corrections, thanks, I'm impressed. Anyway sincerely, if you think the Report is a unreliable source please take the matter to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Sir Floyd (talk) 09:14, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Re-wording
According to the European Commission...... change to According to the Report organised by the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union "Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes"....... What do you thing AlasdairGreen27? Sir Floyd (talk) 09:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest "According to Mitja Ferenc in his contribution to the document on "Crimes committed by totalitarian regimes" published by the Slovenian Presidency of the Council of the European Union"... and then put the text in as direct quotes from him, with, as it is currently, his main point in the article and the supporting quotes in the footnotes. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 12:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks to discuss prior your edit
@AlasdairGreen27: Can you let me edit this article without every single contribution of mine being reverted by you? I just changed two lines to offer to the reader a bit less POV statements about chetniks collaborationism. I don't think it's necessary to provide too many sources for choosing a less pov text. I would remind you there is a mediation regarding Draza Mihailovich -and The Chetniks and Bleiburg massacre as strictly related articles- so will be appreciable an effort in pursuit a more neutral approach. Please stop your edit-war if you can. - Theirrulez (talk) 00:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
- Once a proposed change has been reverted, it is for the editor who wishes to make the proposed change to justify it via discussion on the talk page rather than starting an edit war. I hope this is abundantly clear to you, as it is abundantly clear in our policies.
- Now, regarding your proposed changes. The "sources" you use and claim to be "reliable" express the contrary position to your POV. For example, Petacco says of those fleeing (p. 85)"They had fought alongside the Germans and committed every kind of horror. Now the bill was due, and they hoped to save themselves by seeking asylum under the Allies". Specifically regarding the Chetniks, Petacco says (pp. 85-86) "They included collaborationist Chetniks, semi-collaborationist Chetniks (those who had agreed to fight against the Communists but not against the Allies) and diehard Chetniks still loyal to King Peter II and General Mihailović. Weapons in hand, the Serbians fell on the first houses they saw, sacking them and attacking the defenceless citizens. Many women were raped, and panic spread throughout Gorizia". And so on. Rusinow says (p. 10) "Hence the Chetniks adopted a passive attitude against the occupiers, which they always considered temporary, and determined to destroy the Partisans in the meanwhile. The first of these policies took them out of the anti-Axis firing line and the second gave them and the occupiers a common interest. Together they constituted the slippery slope which led the Chetniks gradually, piecemeal and almost always reluctantly into de facto collaboration with first the Italians and then the Germans against the Partisans.... Chetnik collaboration with the Axis further eroded their domestic support and, when it became known abroad, deprived them of that of the Allies". Now, Theirrulez, that you choose to start an edit war is bad enough. That you do so when you are - or should be, as I pointed it out to you - fully aware that your sources say the precise opposite to your personal POV is a disgrace. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 06:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
- As per policies you posted nobody can't own an article. And I didn't see anybody reverting my small modifications but you. I also remind you, that I asked for a comment in the Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/Draza Mihailovic (see the diff) in which you are involved and from which I got a clear answer by some aother involved users [3], and by the moderator Admin who stated, after your usual request for sources, that it seems problematic to simply label someone as collaborator given that the collaboration was complex, sporadic and changeable [4]. Reminded it, I would note I post an explicit but reasonable request to you to let me improve the article despite your opposite view of the subject.
- Regarding the surces added they fit perfectly what I modified. I demonstrated that even the most partizan and biased sources like Rusinow's don't give them the false label of collaboarationist without explain a deeper definition of what they was for real. You can't call the Chetniks a collaborationist movement. It's a tendentious statement. The Chetniks were firstly a royalist anti-communist force, fighting either against communist partizan and against Axis occupiers. Then in some fuzzy occasions it seems they prefer to wait or not to oppose Axis initiatives in order to gain advantage on the communists partizan.
- All this explanations to let me do little changes in two lines of the article.. Are we sure is this the right way? - Theirrulez (talk) 15:18, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
- If you like I can revert you too?
- 1) One (1) person reverting you is more than enough, and anyway you need to actually start edit-warring before more people can revert you.
- 2) It also does not matter if you call your buddies in and they restore your edit as well, that's called WP:MEAT.
- 3) And NO, we are not supposed to discuss prior to reverting you, its actually you who needs to start a discussion. Not only are you usually required to do so, you are often on some articles actually required to discuss an edit prior to inserting it. These articles have the {{Controversial}} tag. If you read it very very carefully, you'll notice it states "Please discuss substantial changes here before making them".
- Also, you do not know what WP:OWN means so do not run around accusing people they "OWN" articles just because you think they do. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 16:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
- If you like I can revert you too?