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:::::::I think the point is obviously that the "unexpected" aspect was the "landslide" nature of the victory. As currently worded I suppose it's a bit ambiguous but not a huge problem. I think I tend to agree with C of M on this one point though, i.e. is the word "unexpected" all that necessary, at least in the lede? I think what's really important here is the "landslide victory" itself. Even had a landslide been completely anticipated - and Obama was hardly a total underdog by the final weeks of the campaign, see [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1519534.html here] ("Obama, meanwhile, has shot up as high as 20 percentage points ahead of Hynes and Hull, according to the latest polls," March 11th) and [http://www.latimes.com/news/specials/chi-0403170332mar17,0,417121.story here] ("Though Obama...lagged in polls as late as mid-February, he surged to the front of the pack in recent weeks") - it presumably would still have catapulted him to the front ranks of up-and-coming Democrats. If removing "unexpected" from the sentence ends the argument I think I'm okay with that, though I'm open to being persuaded that the word (or something similar) is particularly important. --[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 04:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC) |
:::::::I think the point is obviously that the "unexpected" aspect was the "landslide" nature of the victory. As currently worded I suppose it's a bit ambiguous but not a huge problem. I think I tend to agree with C of M on this one point though, i.e. is the word "unexpected" all that necessary, at least in the lede? I think what's really important here is the "landslide victory" itself. Even had a landslide been completely anticipated - and Obama was hardly a total underdog by the final weeks of the campaign, see [http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1519534.html here] ("Obama, meanwhile, has shot up as high as 20 percentage points ahead of Hynes and Hull, according to the latest polls," March 11th) and [http://www.latimes.com/news/specials/chi-0403170332mar17,0,417121.story here] ("Though Obama...lagged in polls as late as mid-February, he surged to the front of the pack in recent weeks") - it presumably would still have catapulted him to the front ranks of up-and-coming Democrats. If removing "unexpected" from the sentence ends the argument I think I'm okay with that, though I'm open to being persuaded that the word (or something similar) is particularly important. --[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 04:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC) |
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::::::::I agree, we should remove "unexpected". It's one of those words that newspapers sometimes use but we should not, a word to avoid like "ironic(ally)", "coincidentally", "sadly", "surprisingly", etc. It inserts a narrative voice that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, some kind of all knowing person who makes a judgment on what is and what is not to be expected. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 04:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC) |
::::::::I agree, we should remove "unexpected". It's one of those words that newspapers sometimes use but we should not, a word to avoid like "ironic(ally)", "coincidentally", "sadly", "surprisingly", etc. It inserts a narrative voice that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, some kind of all knowing person who makes a judgment on what is and what is not to be expected. [[User:Wikidemon|Wikidemon]] ([[User talk:Wikidemon|talk]]) 04:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC) |
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←I'm afraid I disagree. The sources directly support that his win and its landmark size were unexpected - we're not making the judgment, the sources are. Why are we bending over backward to not say something that is the characterization of the sources? Examples: |
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::''But Mr. Obama, a state senator from Chicago, awoke Wednesday to a deluge of national attention, a result of his overwhelming victory the night before by margins unforeseen by any polls or guesses.'' (NYT ref) |
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::''Obama, 42, whose initial campaign strategy was to build a coalition of blacks and liberal whites, instead surprised even his strategists by amassing broad support from throughout the party.'' (Trib ref) |
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::''Three weeks ago, state Sen. Barack Obama appeared to be an also-ran among the eight Democrats running in Illinois for the nomination to an open U.S. Senate seat.'' (USA Today ref) |
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I think it is a fair word to use, and since the unexpected Senate primary win was arguably an extremely significant step in his rise, as it certainly led to the national exposure and the speculation about his future etc - it belongs in the lead. I don't necessarily object to expanding the lead if we get consensus about that, but we don't need to cut an accurate descriptive word to do that. I don't think it's the most important word in the article, but I think, as I said, it is accurate, well-supported, summarizes the article properly, and I see no reason to take it out. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 07:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC) |
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== More than 60 days in office and not one word about his Presidency == |
== More than 60 days in office and not one word about his Presidency == |
Revision as of 07:25, 25 March 2009
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Redundant discussions
Obama is anti-gun yet campaigned to protect firearm rights.... now he's doing the exact opposite. Liar! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.169.240.2 (talk) 18:03, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of discussions at length which have taken place just in the past couple of months.
Race
- Talk:Barack Obama/race
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race
Religion
Citizenship
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference
Full name
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II
Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion about Obama's birthplace, citizenship, race/ethnicity, etc. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
If you want to read about where Obama was born and have concerns about it, read Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Citizenship facts, rumors and claims and in particular this source which is heavily utilized in the article.
- Where is the archive on Ayers? 68.5.11.175 (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- Should we select one from this list? ↜Just me, here, now … 19:56, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
- Any of those should do. I do wonder why the Ayers topic is not included in the "Discussions". Admins getting censor happy?Miker789 (talk) 02:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
This recent creation was tagged as an attack page for speedy deletion, and I just deleted it. I just wanted to make sure we're clear ... well-sourced, balanced information about anyone, including Barack Obama, is and always has been welcome in Wikipedia, but pages which exist only to disparage their subject will be deleted on sight, no matter who the subject is, per our policy on biographical material of living persons. As with any other deletion, anyone who disagrees is welcome to take the article to deletion review. - Dan Dank55 (push to talk) 20:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Yet there's a page for Criticisms of George W. Bush. If Wikipedians would not like to see this resource attacked as biased, then I suggest you STOP SHOWING OBVIOUS BIAS. SoheiFox (talk) 18:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
policies. Grsz11 18:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- They were read, thoroughly. Assume good faith and allow an article to be brought up to snuff, instead of eliminating with hostility. Especially when it's an article type with precedence. One more time, if Wikipedians want to be seen as an unbiased source, then they need to BE one. Try assuming good faith instead of enforcing an obvious bias. SoheiFox (talk) 21:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the point trying to made here, is that there are policies that dictate what goes into the creation of an article. You acknowledge you've read them, but you don't seem to acknowledge their content or if you've met them. Accusing Wikipedia of bias isn't assuming good faith. A lack of criticism is not tantamount to bias. And inclusion of all criticism, however minor, isn't tantamount to balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digital Jedi Master (talk • contribs) 21:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Demanding a criticism page for Barack Obama is most certainly disruptive, especially when the reason given is that some other politician has one. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, come on, old friend ;). I think the fact that there is a Criticism of George W. Bush article assumes that these types of articles are acceptable. Now, we all know they are not, but that doesn't mean he is being disruptive for bringing it up. I suspect some of the same folks arguing against a Criticism of Barack Obama article will be arguing for keeping the existing Criticism of George W. Bush article. Newguy34 (talk) 22:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Demanding a criticism page for Barack Obama is most certainly disruptive, especially when the reason given is that some other politician has one. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- When there are notable criticisms about one, and only fringe theory criticisms about another, why wouldn't we argue that? —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- (after ec) - No. Criticism articles are stupid, regardless of how much of a complete douchebag the subject of an article is. Criticism should be carefully woven into regular prose at the appropriate place. In the case of Obama, for example, major criticisms should be in this BLP (although there currently aren't any), and minor criticisms should be in the relevant child articles. Bush has a criticism article because the people who created it are lazy, but that is not a matter for this group of articles. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- (after ec) There are already valid criticisms of the president's policies, and him. But, they belong woven into the articles. Newguy34 (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any significant criticisms of the man or his presidency. Obviously there are a few minor criticisms, but nothing in the scale of Bush and Cheney thus far. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- They already are "woven into the articles", such as Public image of Barack Obama. Tarc (talk) 00:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, how about his "say one thing, do another" policy on ethics vis-a-vis lobbyists, or maybe the "I wish I could get a cabinet level secretary who actually paid taxes" matter, or "I can spend a trillion
billiondollars and have the market crash further until there's nothing left" view of economics, all of which are already woven into the article, as Tarc recognizes. Newguy34 (talk) 01:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)- Funny, but is sounds more like you're rattling off topic headers of WorldNetDaily's front page, rather than criticisms of your own. Point being, fringe criticisms from unreliable sources do not make it into Wikipedia articles. Just because you read it on your favorite blog or internet forum, just because you read it on a lot of your favorite blogs and internet forums, that doesn't make it notable in the slightest. Tarc (talk) 01:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the funny part is your bias seems to make it impossible for you to crack the door open even a bit to other possibilities. I don't know if my observations are on WorldNetDaily's front page, as I don't read it. I do know that they are shared by many of us plain ole, not as smart as you, not as cultured as you, normal little people out here. Oh, and they happen to already be in this article, complete with cites to reliable sources. Oh, crap! How did that get past the "Protectors of the True Faith from the Cultural Agency" that thinks, "we're smarter than you because we don't adhere to fringe (aren't they all if they don't meet with your approval?) theories ?! Newguy34 (talk) 02:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- "Many" ? No, they aren't. That's the essential point that evades you. Tarc (talk) 02:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Oops, I was referring to the 43 percent of the voting public that don't think the president is doing a, umm, how do you say, very good job. And, those "fringy" little people cite the three criticisms I noted above (as well as others) as support for their opinion. Well, I mean, it's only 43 percent. What's a 100 million or so voters to the crowd that knows better than the "unwashed masses"? Newguy34 (talk) 02:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- "Many" ? No, they aren't. That's the essential point that evades you. Tarc (talk) 02:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the funny part is your bias seems to make it impossible for you to crack the door open even a bit to other possibilities. I don't know if my observations are on WorldNetDaily's front page, as I don't read it. I do know that they are shared by many of us plain ole, not as smart as you, not as cultured as you, normal little people out here. Oh, and they happen to already be in this article, complete with cites to reliable sources. Oh, crap! How did that get past the "Protectors of the True Faith from the Cultural Agency" that thinks, "we're smarter than you because we don't adhere to fringe (aren't they all if they don't meet with your approval?) theories ?! Newguy34 (talk) 02:13, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Funny, but is sounds more like you're rattling off topic headers of WorldNetDaily's front page, rather than criticisms of your own. Point being, fringe criticisms from unreliable sources do not make it into Wikipedia articles. Just because you read it on your favorite blog or internet forum, just because you read it on a lot of your favorite blogs and internet forums, that doesn't make it notable in the slightest. Tarc (talk) 01:25, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, how about his "say one thing, do another" policy on ethics vis-a-vis lobbyists, or maybe the "I wish I could get a cabinet level secretary who actually paid taxes" matter, or "I can spend a trillion
- They already are "woven into the articles", such as Public image of Barack Obama. Tarc (talk) 00:47, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- I am not aware of any significant criticisms of the man or his presidency. Obviously there are a few minor criticisms, but nothing in the scale of Bush and Cheney thus far. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- (after ec) There are already valid criticisms of the president's policies, and him. But, they belong woven into the articles. Newguy34 (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think, if you have a valid point, then it could easily be made without resorting to sarcasm. You could start by letting us know where this number is that states 43% of Americans don't think he's doing a good job. What source are you getting it from? And if the criticisms you site are already in the article, I'm at a loss to know what you're asking for. —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 05:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- That figure that Newguy34 mentions may have come from the 16 March 2009 Rasmussen Reports Daily Presidential Tracking Poll which indicated approval ratings of 56% somewhat approve or higher, 43% somewhat disapprove or lower. These same poll results show a strongly approve rating of 36% (down a bit since he took office) and a strongly disapprove rating of 32% (nearly tripled since he took office). And the target demographic for the poll was 41%-D/33%-R/26%-I, so it's not just counting knuckledraggers. Opelio (talk) 06:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- I imagine there will be a place for an article such as Criticism of Barack Obama. I don't like the title myself, preferring the plural form of "criticisms", but it's equivalent to what editors settled on for a title in the case of Criticism of George W. Bush, using "criticism" essentially as an abstract, collective, mass noun. The Bush article has been nominated for deletion for a second time. If it does not survive the AfD the question about whether there should be an article on Criticism of Barack Obama ought become moot, IMO. But the probability appears reasonably high that Criticism of George W. Bush will survive its second AfD just as it did the first. Obama certainly is not beyond criticism from either the political left or the political right. Such an article will of course need to be consistent with WP:NPOV and other content policies rather than just an attack page. If there's enough material at this point in his presidency to start one, then someone should start it and let the arguments begin about what's fair game to include in such an article, as happened with the Bush equivalent. I imagine it will go through WP:Articles for deletion just as the Bush article did. But if it's started off with an NPOV tone and with reliable sources in support it seems to me it'll have a good chance at surviving. That said, I have no complaint about Dank55's deletion of the attack page that was started as a POV fork from this article. ... Kenosis (talk) 03:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- This is madness. It makes no sense whatsoever to have articles about anyone or anything that contain only criticism. It is impossible for such an article to be neutral. Any Wikipedia article that has "criticism" in the title should be deleted. Frankly, the same should really apply to section headings. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe so. But see, e.g., Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2009_March_17#Criticism_of_George_W._Bush, and Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Criticism_of_George_W._Bush. The entire history of nominations for deletion of that article can be seen at Talk:Criticism_of_George_W._Bush, near the top of the page. Plainly the consensus is to keep such an article. Presently there's a discussion at that page whether to merge it into Public perception of George W. Bush. ... Kenosis (talk) 15:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- That is utterly irrelevant. As has been said many times before, stuff that goes on at other articles has no bearing on what happens here. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, what goes on in other articles very much has bearing on what goes on in others. That's how you keep NPOV, which really seems to be an alien concept on Wikipedia when it involves political figures. Do you get it? A criticism article on one public figure throws open the validity of other public figures having similar articles. To act otherwise is to utterly fail NPOV. Disruptive is a horrible way to attempt to dismiss a call for proper NPOV. They are either allowed article types or they are not. To fail to assume good faith and delete a criticism article out of hand fails two of the major things Wikipedia is supposed to adhere to. This is not mob rule; not if you want to be taken seriously. If you feel the need to defend one President from having such an article but are entirely for another President having the same type of article, then you have too much bias. It is time for you to move on and edit something else; you are not mature enough to maintain NPOV if you hold such a mindset. SoheiFox (talk) 01:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- That is utterly irrelevant. As has been said many times before, stuff that goes on at other articles has no bearing on what happens here. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:10, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- I suppose time will tell, though it's hardly irrelevant. The trend in WP, very much against my own preferences, has been to allow and retain articles devoted solely to criticisms in a wide variety of topic areas. The article on objections to evolution immediately comes to mind as another example among numerous similar approaches across the wiki including the present form of the Bush criticism article. I don't agree with this trend, but it has unquestionably occurred in the past several years and Wikipedians who disagree with this trend have been unable to prevent the increasing number of such articles that have a strong local consensus to continue to exist. Most importantly, wherever such a page exists, it is a widely agreed that it must not be an attack page. Rather, where such a page exists it must be a neutral presentation of criticisms based wholly upon reliable sources On the other hand, editors at this article can indeed arrive at a different local consensus than have editors in other topic areas, that is, to interpret WP:NPOV more narrowly in terms of choosing topic titles than has been the case elsewhere. In this case, even despite that criticisms of Obama exist from both the political left and right, I personally maintain that such an article would constitute a POV fork. ... Kenosis (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- While balance is obviously the operative, it should be expected that things like GWB and evolution get their own "criticism" articles. These come about when the criticism become a notable topic in their own right. Dozens of books have been published with the sole topic of criticising both GWB and evolution. They are a matter of interest to both those who sympathise with the criticism and those who don't because the criticism is exceptionally vocal (i.e. it goes beyond assorted disagreements that most things attract). The same can't be said for most (though not all) of the criticism directed at Obama. For the moment, it remains stuff which is dismissed to different degrees by his supporters, the mainstream media and the public as typical responses from those who oppose him on political or ideological grounds. Bigbluefish (talk) 00:54, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- I suppose time will tell, though it's hardly irrelevant. The trend in WP, very much against my own preferences, has been to allow and retain articles devoted solely to criticisms in a wide variety of topic areas. The article on objections to evolution immediately comes to mind as another example among numerous similar approaches across the wiki including the present form of the Bush criticism article. I don't agree with this trend, but it has unquestionably occurred in the past several years and Wikipedians who disagree with this trend have been unable to prevent the increasing number of such articles that have a strong local consensus to continue to exist. Most importantly, wherever such a page exists, it is a widely agreed that it must not be an attack page. Rather, where such a page exists it must be a neutral presentation of criticisms based wholly upon reliable sources On the other hand, editors at this article can indeed arrive at a different local consensus than have editors in other topic areas, that is, to interpret WP:NPOV more narrowly in terms of choosing topic titles than has been the case elsewhere. In this case, even despite that criticisms of Obama exist from both the political left and right, I personally maintain that such an article would constitute a POV fork. ... Kenosis (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Obamas Name
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
When are the people going to use Obamas real name? All of the other Presidents were refered by their middle initial. JFK,LBJ, Harry S.Jimmy E. Carter., Slick willie, FDR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.205.49.0 (talk) 13:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- We go by what they are commonly known as, for the name of the article itself, which in this case is "Barack Obama". You will note that the very first line of the first paragraph spells out "Barack Hussein Obama II", his full and legal name. Also, I note how you cherry-picked presidents who are known by their middle name/initial, but left out those such as Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, Teddy Roosevelt, etc... Also noted is the "Slick Willie" pejorative, which kinda gives away your bias in this topic. Oops! Tarc (talk) 13:41, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- We do. JustGettingItRight (talk) 14:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- For today only, can't we change his name to O'Bama? After all, his great-great grandfather is Irish. 216.163.246.1 (talk) 15:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- (...Viz Saint Paddy's (Day).) ↜Just me, here, now … 13:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- For today only, can't we change his name to O'Bama? After all, his great-great grandfather is Irish. 216.163.246.1 (talk) 15:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Teleprompter
Where is the section that he can't talk without a teleprompter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.215.230 (talk) 17:12, 18 March 2009 (UTC) I'm Ron Burgundy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.47.15.10 (talk) 17:17, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- It's nowhere, because we have yet to see a reliable source making any such assertion. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 20:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
And again you perpetuate this believe that Wikipedia is controlled by Liberals.(which will eventually be it's downfall) Search google news, you will find articles about this. 72.10.215.230 (talk) 21:18, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- See WP:NOTNEWS, you will see why it doesn't matter either way. Cosmic Latte (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I've certainly seen that contradicted in other articles. 72.230.38.207 (talk) 01:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- His overall life, no not really. But his "Great Orator" skills are looking more and more, "not so great". AP just released another story about him not doing well because of his reliance on a teleprompter. Did Martin Luther King use one? Nope. A great orator is someone who memorizes his speech and then can give it and vary it and jump around in it because they know it in their heart, and eat, sleep and breathe it. They are comfortable in front of anyone and can talk off of the top of their head on that subject.
Please provide some reliable sources for us to potentially use and state exactly what the fact is and how is it notable. JustGettingItRight (talk) 02:28, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- OK, here are three sources. Did not need all three since this story is not an opinion piece, it is just a report of the factual event that happened on March 17.
- [4] [5] [6] Miker789 (talk) 03:32, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- These sources do not explain how this amounts to anything more than slightly amusing trivia, and they do not indicate why it would belong in an encyclopedic biography written in summary style. Cosmic Latte (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with Latte. It's one incident, and not notable in the grand scheme of things for a President. If it becomes an ongoing problem with Obama (and a defining characteristic of his Presidency), it belongs in the article. Otherwise, no. Dayewalker (talk) 03:57, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- These sources do not explain how this amounts to anything more than slightly amusing trivia, and they do not indicate why it would belong in an encyclopedic biography written in summary style. Cosmic Latte (talk) 03:51, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- It shows that we have a president that may not be able to string together a coherent thought unless he is scripted. Here are more sources.
- [7] [8] [9] I am just reporting the factual info of his past problems with speeches. When you watch the actual speeches where the telepromter goes out or he tries to speak without one, many have reported that his speeches were lackluster. This is in direct contrast to being a great orator. I am being neutral and just referencing what reporters have said. I thought that was what Wiki was supposed to do, just compile the facts. Miker789 (talk) 04:10, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- An encyclopedia is much more than just a compilation of facts. Maybe, if this becomes something, add it to one of the sub articles, but not the main bio. Tom 04:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Even if this is notable, and I believe it is based upon the mainstream news coverage on this, it may not warrant inclusion in this article because of WP:WEIGHT. Ordinarily, for your smaller articles, you might include such information. However, this article serves almost as a summary, with several sub-articles branching off. Thus, I don't think this material belongs here, lest this becomes a bigger story going forward, but I would say it might be worthy to put in a relevant subarticle (say speaking skills of Obama or something like that). JustGettingItRight (talk) 05:06, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- This is also a much more efficient way to work on a big topic than this. Rather than argue here and spend pages stumbling over rhetoric and policy principles, address it in the articles with narrower scope, make sure they are balanced and give appropriate weight, and then read through them and compare how a summary style section should look with what we've got. Bigbluefish (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
"Mr Obama is an accomplished orator but is becoming known in America as the "teleprompt president" over his reliance on the machine when he gives a speech." Source: "Obama In St Patrick's Day Teleprompt Blunder," SkyNews, 18 March 2009.
I added an item, with two citations, about emerging criticisms that his reliance on a teleprompter is perhaps excessive, compared to previous presidents or other public figures. It makes sense that a section including praise he receives for his oratorical skills would also mention criticism, or at least a caveat concerning a possible source of that skill. --SHarold (talk) 22:23, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why was this deleted? In a section that describes his "cultural image" and includes the opinion that he is one of the greatest orators of our time, citing one opinion article, it makes sense to include the opposing viewpoint. I don't think you can say this is a topic without "weight" when you include one opinion but not another. Unless a good reason is given for deleting this, it ought to be put back in and I will re-insert it, after discussion (unless there is none). --SHarold (talk) 22:37, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- I see your point. I have not read what you added that was removed, so I can't say anything about that, but I do agree generally with the need to be encyclopedic and not a mere echo. On another topic, here is a joke, but it may link to reliable sources: http://baracksteleprompter.blogspot.com/ --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Is this an example of what happens without a teleprompter?: "President Obama Jokes About Being a Bad Bowler: 'It's Like the Special Olympics'". --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 05:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I see your point. I have not read what you added that was removed, so I can't say anything about that, but I do agree generally with the need to be encyclopedic and not a mere echo. On another topic, here is a joke, but it may link to reliable sources: http://baracksteleprompter.blogspot.com/ --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 04:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Guys, Wikipedia talk pages are not a forum for dissing the article subjects, or for posting links to snarky partisan blogs and infotainment sites. Many of those pages have their own comments sections where puerile Kool-aid drinkers on both sides can get their jollies pounding each other. We try to responsibly craft appropriately balanced encyclopedia articles here. "It may link to reliable sources"?! That's neither legitimate nor compelling, it's promoting this talk page as a gathering of gossipy fault-mongers. Abrazame (talk) 06:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well said! But I did not have a bad motivation. Instead I thought it might be a useful gateway for finding a useful article, particularly given the newness of the issue. Hey, I guess I could have been wrong, but if it pays off with a valuable source, then it was worth it. Not every effort I make to improve Wikipedia articles will be perfect, but at least I'm making efforts. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 00:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I still haven't read a good reason why a sentence extolling Obama's skill as an orator should not be followed by a sentence critiquing his oratory. It's not a question of WP:WEIGHT, since I only added one sentence to balance another sentence. Again, the issue is not use of a teleprompter per se as much as it is a changing perception of his cultural image, and the re-evaluation of the opinion that he is an astounding orator. --SHarold (talk) 18:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- You may not like the reasons, but they are stated. The whole issue of "balance" is inherently POV. The article is written in summary style, not point counterpoint style. It is not necessary to follow every issue that may be perceived as positive, with the counter-position by those who disagree. The weight issue goes to the prevalence of sources where, for now at least, there is a lot of material about Obama's speaking in general, and only a small flurry of recent articles about use of teleprompters. Further, you hit the nail on the head when you mention cultural image. There is an article entirely devoted to that, where the material can receive much more full treatment. Incidentally, as I have said elsewhere I think that the material praising Obama's oratorial skills and comparing him to various other speakers also received undue weight and should be trimmed back.Wikidemon (talk) 18:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Wikidemon and have cut the offending paragraph. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
New article on teleprompter usage
I stumbled across this little gem a few moments ago, and I thought perhaps regular editors might like to take a look at it. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- All I can do is facepalm. Tarc (talk) 16:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I hope this does not become a trend... we're going to have to deal with one of these every week, when humorists, slow news day reporters, and anti-Obama folks come up with some new piece of trivia to cover that week? I'm just waiting for the article on Obama's smoking habit, and Obama's annual physical. Wikidemon (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Now taking wagers on Obama-Leno Special Olympics controversy. Tarc (talk) 16:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the president could help fend off these types of things that follow celebrity if he'd slow up on the night show apperances, televised March Madness bracket picks, etc. Newguy34 (talk) 16:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Did you actually watch Leno? He gave an interesting, articulate and unscripted explanation of the financial crisis with respect to AIG and beyond. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, I did, but what's your point? Interesting? That's a matter of opinion. Articulate? Sure, I guess. Unscripted? We will never know. Certainly it appears he didn't use a teleprompter for his appearance, but the president of the United States doesn't sneeze without a script. I'm watching his remarks right now, and there's the "ping-pong" reading from the teleprompter, yet again. Newguy34 (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Did you actually watch Leno? He gave an interesting, articulate and unscripted explanation of the financial crisis with respect to AIG and beyond. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:54, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it's arguably as notable as Jon Stewart's 2009 controversy with CNBC. Soooo... ;-) --Ali'i 17:02, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, the president could help fend off these types of things that follow celebrity if he'd slow up on the night show apperances, televised March Madness bracket picks, etc. Newguy34 (talk) 16:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Now taking wagers on Obama-Leno Special Olympics controversy. Tarc (talk) 16:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I hope this does not become a trend... we're going to have to deal with one of these every week, when humorists, slow news day reporters, and anti-Obama folks come up with some new piece of trivia to cover that week? I'm just waiting for the article on Obama's smoking habit, and Obama's annual physical. Wikidemon (talk) 16:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent) To be fair to the Jon Stewart story, it did receive a lot of attention over a continuous span of time. That's about the only good thing I can say about it, because after the event the entire thing fell off the radar and no serious consequences seemed to follow. Also, Cramer v. Stewart can be written into the relevant articles, "TOTUS!" cannot. 75.66.180.72 (talk) 17:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- So accolades for Obama's speaking is very notable and must be included, but the substantial coverage of misstatements, controversial statements, and teleprompter use should be excluded? Interesting. I hadn't realized the New York Times was a right-wing propaganda enterprise. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:17, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- As to the first part, yes. Obama's oratorial style is a significant biographical matter, and fairly important to who he is and how he functions in his career. To the extent the article digresses and it becomes a collection of accolades or disparagement, that drifts off point and should be trimmed and posed in a more encyclopedic style. An article about a person says who he is and what he does - it is not a point / counterpoint collection of praises and criticisms. As to the second part, again yes, the teleprompter usage matter is not covered to a sufficient degree, nor is it relevant enough in my opinion and the majority of others so far commenting, to be worth including in this article. Wikidemon (talk) 18:28, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I haven't commented on this latest thing, so let me add my voice that his oratorical style is notable and and an important facet of who he is, and therefore must be included in any biography. The teleprompter use is ridiculously unimportant, however, as are his poor bowling skills and every word he utters. <mantra> This is a biography of a person's whole life and career. </mantra> Tvoz/talk 18:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- An alternative to Obama-Leno Special Olympics controversy would be List of Democratic party jokes about the Special Olympics ("even if you win, you're still retarded"). Andjam (talk) 10:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Criticisms of George W. Bush
Since this article no longer exists perhaps we should mention something about it in the FAQs so we no longer have to hear the "but they have that article" argument. Soxwon (talk) 14:41, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Now that the article is deleted, why would we still hear that argument? It's not acceptable to use the opposite, that the Bush article doesn't exist, to justify not having one for Obama, just as the WP:OSE argument wasn't acceptable before. Plus, there are still numerous criticism articles for living people left, perhaps to be dealt with. Bigbluefish (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- The FAQ says that we don't have a criticism section in this article. I think discussion about what is happening in other articles is best left to the editors of those articles, and wider discussion of criticism of people is best centralized in guideline or essay pages, and meta-pages. Those things come and go and we can't keep up here. Having said that, considering there was a bit of a dust-up about that both here and in certain other corners of the Internet, it might be good to clarify the second sentence of Q6 so that instead of making a generalized proclamation that criticism should be worked into articles, we instead say that the choice made on this article is to work into this article anything that might be considered a criticism per WP:CRIT. Also, that we are not using this article as a master list of criticism, but that instead many matters not considered relevant or significant enough for this main bio article are covered in one of the many other articles throughout the encyclopedia that relate to Obama. Wikidemon (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should add a new question/answer to the FAQ? The #1 argument used by others is "But Criticism of X exists, therefore there should also be a Criticism of Barack Obama!" When the Criticism/controversy articles for Obama's primary opponents (Clinton, Giuliani, McCain, Thompson) were merged into other articles/deleted the only thing that changed about the "But Criticism of X exists" argument was that the value of X changed from the primary opponents to either Bill O'Reilly or George W. Bush. I'd imagine that since the Bush article is now a redirect the only change will be that the existence of the Bush article will disappear, and O'Reilly's, Putin's, Chavez's, or Reid's articles will be used. --Bobblehead (rants) 17:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- We have, but that doesn't work unfortunately. --Bobblehead (rants) 19:09, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
You don't delete an article on Wikipedia through page blanking vandalism. It has been reverted. This will be brought up on ANI and in the current ArbCom case if this continues. JustGettingItRight (talk) 22:43, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Please disregard my comment. I thought the merge action was unilateral, which I would have had reason to believe so based upon some people's actions in the past few days. So my apologies. I would like to note that a merge is not a delete, though. JustGettingItRight (talk) 22:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
The soapboxing that is going on is unhelpful and unnecessary. I would also like to remind editors here that there are criticisms and notable controversies in the G Dub article as well as in the now merged criticism article. That clearly isn't the case here and this article needs to be balanced with coverage of the issues and criticisms that have been raised and covered extensively in reliable sources. These include Obama's opposition to the Surge and military strategy, his controversial statements and associations, concerns over his spending proposals and issues over his nominations and appointments. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:14, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- I couldn't disagree more. These are all criticisms by a select group of individuals, and do not in any way reflect mainstream opinion - as evidenced by poll numbers. Trying to get these sorts of minor criticisms into this article would be a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT. It is worth bearing in mind that there is a world of difference between "covered in reliable sources" and "covered in a preponderance of reliable sources". This claim of "extensive" coverage simply isn't true, and I suspect is more a reflection of what reliable sources you expose yourself to. -- Scjessey (talk) 23:38, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- You (incorrectly) make it sound as if there is no significant dissent from President Obama's actions. The poll numbers do not agree with your assertion as you claim. I agree with your point on WP:WEIGHT, but that doesn't mean there is not significant opposition to several of President Obama's decisions. Whether an issue generating criticism is or is not ecyclopedic has to be decided on an individual basis. JustGettingItRight (talk) 00:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Can you actually identify some "significant" opposition for me? I am unaware of anything that could be construed as "significant". There has been right-wing opposition. There has been Republican opposition. There has been "fringe" opposition. None of these have been "significant" insofar as that they had any effect on anything, apart from attracting ridicule. And frankly, poll numbers on virtually all matters continue to show public support for Obama and his policies. Maybe my understanding of the word significant differs from yours. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Poll numbers show a majority of support for Obama (60%) ... they do not show unanimous or even 2/3rd support. That is significant dissent. In fact, with the exception of George Washington and James Monroe, no President has ever enjoyed full support of the population. However, I don't think that fact is germane in deciding whether to include or not include material in an article, but I do think that citing "lack of dissent" as a rationale is rightly going to get shot down. The dissent from the Congressional Republicans on the stimulus was almost unanimous, save Specter, Snowe, and Collins. Is discussion of the stimulus notable? Absolutely. There are several other policy decisions that have engendered criticism, most recently discovery that the Obama administration allegedly told Chris Dodd to insert one line in the stimulus bill that would guarantee payment of the bonuses for AIG executives. But would I advocate including every action of Barack Obama's presidency and any potential criticism in this article? No, for the simple fact this article would become too big if we were to do that. JustGettingItRight (talk) 02:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Obama's numbers are now lower than Bush's were at the equivalent period in his presidency, with one-third of Americans strongly disapproving. A three-to-two majority says his policies are adding too much to the deficit.[10] But the number to watch is generic ballot, since this has predictive value in the terms of the congressional elections. It's 41 GOP to 39 Dem now, compared to 41 GOP 47 Dem at the time of the last election.[11] That's an eight point shift -- it would be a Republican blowout if the election was held now. Kauffner (talk) 04:42, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
(Unindent), look, this will come off as negative and maybe even a bit condescending, but honestly: You guys are harping on the same points that have been harped on continually. You can claim consensus by Liberal Mafia or you could show some respect for the editors here and acknowledge their efforts in constructing this article. Anything less of, "I respectfully disagree, and present you with $_argument as civilly supported by X, Y, Z..." is going to be met with increased resistance from the editors here. Then you will have created this cabal of elitist liberals yourself, cuz ya know what, what should they listen to you if you aren't saying anything they haven't heard a million times already?75.66.180.72 (talk) 06:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Technical matters
We need to do something about the size of this page
Maybe my computer/internet connection is slow, but the article page takes forever to load. JustGettingItRight (talk) 04:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I have commented about this in the past. The size of the article has little bearing on how quickly it loads; however, there is significant (there's that word again!) use of templating that may slow things down, not to mention huge popularity. It is possible that the large number of references is partly to blame. I totally agree with you though - it takes many seconds for the page to load, or for an edit to be completed. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- This article is currently 30 kB (4866 words) readable prose size which is actually at the shorter end of our major political figure BLP scale. As Scjessey says, the many images, cites, and nav templates all take their toll. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:18, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)While the templates are a bit of a drag, the major causes of drag are going to be the 221 references and multitude of images. Even if the cite templates are switched to a manual formatting the page will take forever to load. Just check out the load time on John McCain. Ferrylodge converted that one to manual formatting and it still takes a bajillion years to load. Granted, McCain's article has 49kb of prose to this article's 30kb, but you get the idea. --Bobblehead (rants) 22:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Bottom main page section missing
Somehow in the last day or so the whole bottom section (templates, categories, etc.) went missing. What happened? Which is the last stable version of this? I wanted to restore it but I don't want to use a version that is too old and will lose any helpful intermediate edits. Wikidemon (talk) 19:16, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- It displays fine for me, though it takes bout 10-15 secs sometimes. Maybe your connection is timing out. Tarc (talk) 22:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Stimulus plan
Republican cheerleading?
Just out of curiosity, how is this line removed "Republican Cheerleading"? [12] I realize this is a fact that Republicans, in general, are proud of. But it did happen that way, and is a matter of opinion as to whether it should be a good thing. Why would it be removed on the basis that it makes Republicans look good, or "cheerleads" for them, when it seems such a important historical fact and very relevant to the subject, what with one of Obama's touted goals being creating non-partisanship and all? —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 12:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- It was removed because it was not biographically-significant in any way whatsoever, but I described it as Republican cheerleading because of the use of "without a single" and "only 3" - as if it was something to be proud of (as you alluded to). How Republican politicians vote is not relevant to a biography of Obama's life. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well, ChildofMidnight just disruptively restored these irrelevant, non-biographical details without any kind of talk page discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed that the mechanics of Congressional legislation is not biographically important to the President (absent some special reason that it is relevant to him). But can we please confine the discussion here to article-related matters, and use the proper forum (if any) for characterizing an editor's work as disruptive? As many probably know, there is an arbitration case open regarding Obama-related articles which, among other things, may give us some guidance on how to deal with disputed content, and editors who attempt to insert it over the opposition of others. Wikidemon (talk) 17:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that there is little reason to keep any of the legislative history. Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- The opposition to his stimulus/ spending plan is certainly notable. Like all criticism and controversy it has been censored from the article. But trying to include it is entirely appropriate. Whether the article notes the vote along partisan lines or the many voices of opposition, it needs to cover these issues. This is an encyclopedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, I agree, It is indeed notable. However, not for a main overview biography of Obama. I'd like to see the info on his presidency page, and of course the stimulus/porkulus article. Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is extensive discussion of Obama's involvement in all sorts of bills in this article, most of it utterly non-notable. This is the largest spending bill in the history of the United States. The idea that opposition to it shouldn't be noted isn't supported by editing guidelines and policies. There needs to be a place in this article where notable opposition, controversies and criticisms can be included. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- No, I agree, It is indeed notable. However, not for a main overview biography of Obama. I'd like to see the info on his presidency page, and of course the stimulus/porkulus article. Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- The opposition to his stimulus/ spending plan is certainly notable. Like all criticism and controversy it has been censored from the article. But trying to include it is entirely appropriate. Whether the article notes the vote along partisan lines or the many voices of opposition, it needs to cover these issues. This is an encyclopedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 18:15, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that there is little reason to keep any of the legislative history. Mahalo. --Ali'i 18:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Opposition to Obama's spending/stimulus plan
There is no reason to remove notation of opposition to Obama's spending/ stimulus plan. Wikipedia is not censored. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- We've been had! Quick! Burn everything related to this liberal cabal of CENSORING FASCISTS we're all a part of. :roll: 75.66.180.72 (talk) 18:12, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Just a reminder - this page is not supposed to be for complaining about, much less mocking, other editors' behavior. If you have a substantive point about the content, or the process of editing it, maybe you can say it directly. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Fair point. I get carried away sometimes. CoM, here's some constructive criticism: do not frame this as being between you and phantom censors. No one has any reason to fairly and objectively evaluate what you say when you open by attacking everyone who has already spent time working on this article. "Censorship!" works at WND, it doesn't work here. 75.66.180.72 (talk) 18:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, the reason for omitting opposition to the plan is not "censorship"; the reason is that it is not of enough biographical relevance to put in a summary-style BLP. It should come as no surprise that Republicans have objected to a Democrat's actions. In order for that to be biographically interesting, however, Obama would have to respond to the objections in a highly notable way (thus becoming engaged with them as a subject), or else he would have to be viewed in a highly notable way in light of those objections (thus becoming engaged with them as an object). Apart from insulting the intelligence of anyone who is remotely familiar with American two-party politics, pointing out that objections exist could also violate WP:SYNTH as an attempt to divert the reader's attention to a counterpoint rather than to shed light on Obama as the subject or object of a biography. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is already included in this article discussion of bipartisanship for far less notable bills than the largest spending bill in the history of the U.S. Pointing out that the vote was along party lines is very notable and more balance needs to be included in the article. Every minor bill Obama has ever touched is included, but there's no discussion of major issues and concerns expressed by those who have opposed his policies. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why do you keep referring to a spending bill? I am not aware of a bill of that name. Is this a proposed bill, or just an existing bill you are misrepresenting? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- It's a bill which spends, and it spent the largest amount in history. All CoM is missing is a hyphen. It's frankly embarrassing how much irrelevant bickering and faulty arguments are being thrown from both "sides" here. Of course the nature of the passing of this bill is important politically. The biographical relevance will depend on how big the bill becomes in the context of the coming years. We're very much making up history as we go along here, so please don't get so hung up on fine points of weight. Bigbluefish (talk) 20:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Which bill? The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, the Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, or the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009? These are the only significant bills signed by Obama thus far, and none of them have the word "spending" in them. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't bring this up so that we could get into partisan wrangling (again). I brought it up because I thought the point was relevant to the sentence (at the time). That's what a biography should do. Present the facts as they are relevant to the person. I digress. I don't think it belongs after all, now that I've read the context a little better. —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 00:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Which bill? The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009, the Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2009, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009, or the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009? These are the only significant bills signed by Obama thus far, and none of them have the word "spending" in them. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- It's a bill which spends, and it spent the largest amount in history. All CoM is missing is a hyphen. It's frankly embarrassing how much irrelevant bickering and faulty arguments are being thrown from both "sides" here. Of course the nature of the passing of this bill is important politically. The biographical relevance will depend on how big the bill becomes in the context of the coming years. We're very much making up history as we go along here, so please don't get so hung up on fine points of weight. Bigbluefish (talk) 20:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why do you keep referring to a spending bill? I am not aware of a bill of that name. Is this a proposed bill, or just an existing bill you are misrepresenting? -- Scjessey (talk) 20:01, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is already included in this article discussion of bipartisanship for far less notable bills than the largest spending bill in the history of the U.S. Pointing out that the vote was along party lines is very notable and more balance needs to be included in the article. Every minor bill Obama has ever touched is included, but there's no discussion of major issues and concerns expressed by those who have opposed his policies. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, the reason for omitting opposition to the plan is not "censorship"; the reason is that it is not of enough biographical relevance to put in a summary-style BLP. It should come as no surprise that Republicans have objected to a Democrat's actions. In order for that to be biographically interesting, however, Obama would have to respond to the objections in a highly notable way (thus becoming engaged with them as a subject), or else he would have to be viewed in a highly notable way in light of those objections (thus becoming engaged with them as an object). Apart from insulting the intelligence of anyone who is remotely familiar with American two-party politics, pointing out that objections exist could also violate WP:SYNTH as an attempt to divert the reader's attention to a counterpoint rather than to shed light on Obama as the subject or object of a biography. Cosmic Latte (talk) 19:24, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Fair point. I get carried away sometimes. CoM, here's some constructive criticism: do not frame this as being between you and phantom censors. No one has any reason to fairly and objectively evaluate what you say when you open by attacking everyone who has already spent time working on this article. "Censorship!" works at WND, it doesn't work here. 75.66.180.72 (talk) 18:52, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Just a reminder - this page is not supposed to be for complaining about, much less mocking, other editors' behavior. If you have a substantive point about the content, or the process of editing it, maybe you can say it directly. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
So just to be clear when Obama " sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation" it's worth including, but when his legislation is opposed on a partisan basis it has to be excluded as non-notable even though the legislation itself is far more notable and controversial and there has been national news coverage of the dispute? ChildofMidnight (talk) 01:55, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's a rhetorical question, no? It is a case-by-case question. If Obama had a significant impact on a bill's passage being very unusual or remarkable, the Congressional proceedings in which he was involved might be relevant to his biography. The routine situation in Washington, where bills pass or fail on party line votes plus a little arm twisting, is not biographically important as a general matter. As part of that, bipartisan passage of a major bill may very well be more of a stand-out than the usual strict party vote, but it all depends. Wikidemon (talk) 02:42, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the operative point is that the president did have significant involvement with this legislation, which was not routine (at least we hope not). The legislation was crafted to be "bipartisan", but was clearly not, a fact that received significant media coverage from a variety of sources. The operative question is does it belong here, or perhaps in Presidency of Barack Obama, or maybe both? Newguy34 (talk) 15:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- I am aware of coverage that Republican legislators broke rank over working on a bipartisan stimulus bill, not that the bill itself is partisan. If it turns out in hindsight that this is the beginning of the end of Obama's efforts to create an era of bipartisanship then that failure would probably be a significant enough life event to go in a bio article, but it is too early to tell whether that will happen or whether this particular bill marks that sea change. Wikidemon (talk) 23:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the operative point is that the president did have significant involvement with this legislation, which was not routine (at least we hope not). The legislation was crafted to be "bipartisan", but was clearly not, a fact that received significant media coverage from a variety of sources. The operative question is does it belong here, or perhaps in Presidency of Barack Obama, or maybe both? Newguy34 (talk) 15:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
Obama's bowling skills
There should be a sentence about it in the article. See: Special Olympics takes on use of 'R-word'. It is so unacceptable that when somebody make even here a criticism about Obama's politic then there is a very large chance that it will be reverted/user deleted. Even so in such situations when Obama clearly in a brutal way attacks a group of peoples. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.240.229 (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- How did I guess? Tvoz/talk 01:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- No there really shouldn't. And it was a self-deprecating comment, not a comment towards a group of people. —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 06:09, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- If he habitually played bowling, badly, then we should put a line in, as per basketball. Since he does not, we should not do so.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, hence the easter-egging of my entire comment there. He's probably not a very good trapeze artist, either, given that he (like most people) has never been trained as one. It's sort of amusing to see the lengths folks will go to in order to say something negative about him. Cosmic Latte (talk) 08:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- If he habitually played bowling, badly, then we should put a line in, as per basketball. Since he does not, we should not do so.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Well yes, there is an obvious POV bias because we are only talking about Obama's poor ability at an indoor American ball-tossing team physical sport. We have not even begun to say how bad he is at goat head tossing, laser tag, or competitive ghost riding. Moreover, without discussing Sarah Palin's bowling skills in her article, or Vladimir Putin's either, we are clearly showing an Obama bias. Wikidemon (talk) 08:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Given the US/UK special relationship and Gordon Brown's Scottish connections, suggest also caber tossing evaluation of Obama, with Obama in one of those long kilt things.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Endorse creating Caber-tossing skills of Barack Obama, and further recommend Failure of Barack Obama to buy a round of drinks in a pub, in the Scottish manner. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:36, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
- Given the US/UK special relationship and Gordon Brown's Scottish connections, suggest also caber tossing evaluation of Obama, with Obama in one of those long kilt things.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
I THINK THE FIRST SENTENCE SHOULD READ THIS: Barack Hussein Obama II (pronounced /bəˈrɑːk huːˈseɪn oʊˈbɑːmə/; born August 4, 1961) is the Grammy winning 44th and current President of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Plok82 (talk • contribs) 18:40, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Brilliant! But you need a hyphen between "Grammy" and "winning". Just a few more edits and the world will see him for what he truly is: a mediocre ball player with a successful recording career. Abrazame (talk) 07:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- We should probably also say something about how his ears can't bowl without a teleprompter and a copy of the Qur'an. —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 13:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- No no - that's only true of his left ear. He bowls well with his right ear sans technology or religious texts.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 19:53, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- We should probably also say something about how his ears can't bowl without a teleprompter and a copy of the Qur'an. —— Digital Jedi Master (talk) 13:10, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- While I disagree with the poster's idea that Obama's bowling skill (or lack thereof) is relevant to this article or warrants inclusion, I am taken aback by the failure of many editors to follow WP:AGF in this section. Some editors kindly addressed the original idea, but most chose to mock the idea. I don't understand why. Jogurney (talk) 23:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Difficult to assume good faith when an editor springs up out of nowhere just to lecture established editors on there being "not enough criticism" about Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Personal life
Americans call it "Indonesian" but many people around the world call the language "Bahasa Indonesia" or "Bahasa Indonesian". I favor the 2nd but don't care that much. Spevw (talk) 20:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Photo selection
A missing important photo is his Senate photo. Maybe replace the Lugar photo with the more important Senate photo. Spevw (talk) 20:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Bold change to lead
Current introduction: 1. Who he is (President) and what he used to be. 2. Education and Illinois Senate 3. Keynote address and Senate committees 4. Close primary campaign with Hillary Clinton, African-American, McCain.
3b (Senate committees) is the most out of place for an introduction. It is not a key point. Other senator articles don't deem committee assignments as a key point for the introduction. A more important point was that Obama ran as an anti-war candidate and was one of the early politicians to do so. Spevw (talk) 20:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
Corrected, nothing controversial added. Very plain language used. Spevw (talk) 21:56, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
An editor has shortened and refined the lead.[13] I like the change, with the exception of using the word "virtual" to mean "almost". I know there was a deliberate effort to describe Obama's senate career in the lead, but I find the actual list of committees and legislation to be very dry and not terribly informative to someone who is reading the lead for summary purposes. So, preemptively, I like it! Wikidemon (talk) 21:55, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
See, I'm no dummy, my ideas are good. I also am changing it to almost like you suggested. Spevw (talk) 21:58, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- I just want to point out that calling this a "consensus" edit in edit summary is a stretch - one editor agreed with it, and others might not. I'm not saying necessarily that the edits were bad, but I am saying that major changes to the lead section of an FA on article probation, which has seen much contention, should be done with great care. Waiting for actual consensus to form when the changes are substantive, as these are, would be prudent. Tvoz/talk 08:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- I went over the revised lede and made some changes to it:
- Reinstated "close" for the primaries as "prolonged" has a POV tinge to it (def: "tediously protracted"), whereas "close" is just descriptive.
- Rearranged the paragraph about his Senate run because as it had been amended, the chronology was off - the keynote came before the election and saying he was elected and following that with he was relatively unknown is misleading: he was relatively unknown nationally until giving the keynote in July, and then he was elected in November. Also it had said twice that he was elected, so this modification corrects that.
- I removed the addition of his campaign themes for now - the lede is supposed to summarize the article, and this sentence didn;t seem to summarize what is covered in the article, however accurate the description might be. Also I think this one is too major a change to just slip in.
- I agree with the removal of the second swearing-in - it is a trivial point, not suitable for the lede.
- I agree with the removal of the Senate committees.
- My changes were an attempt to reconcile what we had with what was being changed, and think that further major changes to the lede should be discussed, as I said above. Tvoz/talk 08:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Unexpected
Thanks to the editor for providing a reference, but it confirms that the word "unexpected" is misleading. The Republican challenger imploded with a scandal. The only thing the article says is that he wasn't expected to win going into the race and that the size of his margins weren't expected, but it's not really accurate to say his victory was unexpected without clarifying what is meant by this. No one was shocked when he won. It wasn't a big surprise. It was expected. It maybe wasn't anticipated at the start of the race and he may have been an underdog, but to stick in unexpected in the "lead" (introduction) of this article as if that's very notable is misleading. ChildofMidnight (talk) 06:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- CoM, please read it again - the "unexpected" is referring to the Democratic primary landslide win in March which was unexpected, not the November election against the imploded Republicans which was not. Tvoz/talk 07:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- A Senate primary win does not a star make, however unexpected it may have struck the small fraction of people in his state that follow Senate primaries. For that matter, actually getting elected to the U.S. Senate does not make someone a "star". It makes them a Senator. Obama became a star due to his address to the Democratic convention which electrified not only the party in the hall but in the nationwide TV audience and got people talking about him across the country. I don't understand the reverts here. Can't we just get a reference? Abrazame (talk) 09:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. One bit taken out of context from an enthusiastic New York Times story doesn't belong in the introduction of this article. The significane of the "unexpectedness" of Obama's primary win in the Senate primary is at or approaching nil. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- There are now a couple of reliable sources referencing the surprise surrounding the landslide victory in the Dem primary and pointing to Obama as a rising star among Democrats at that time. Thus I don't think there's a problem per say with the lede or with the text on this later in the article, but there's also probably room for compromise. Certainly Obama's convention speech raised his stature and "star power" far more than his primary victory and it should be easy to find references that demonstrate this (as currently written, the intro places more emphasis on the primary win - "made him a rising star" - then on his convention speech - "further raising his visibility" - and to my mind at least the emphasis there is reversed from what it should be).
- Agreed. One bit taken out of context from an enthusiastic New York Times story doesn't belong in the introduction of this article. The significane of the "unexpectedness" of Obama's primary win in the Senate primary is at or approaching nil. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:42, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- A Senate primary win does not a star make, however unexpected it may have struck the small fraction of people in his state that follow Senate primaries. For that matter, actually getting elected to the U.S. Senate does not make someone a "star". It makes them a Senator. Obama became a star due to his address to the Democratic convention which electrified not only the party in the hall but in the nationwide TV audience and got people talking about him across the country. I don't understand the reverts here. Can't we just get a reference? Abrazame (talk) 09:58, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- If ChildofMidnight and others have problems with the current wording they should propose some alternatives here, though the sources cited seem to demonstrate that the notion that the significance of his primary win is "at or approaching nil" is not really accurate, so it's not necessarily inappropriate to mention this in some form in the lede (though I would say it's not incredibly crucial either).
- I would think it should be easy to come up with a solution agreeable to all on the talk page, and that's what should happen now rather than continued edit warring. In the grand scheme this is a very small issue so let's try to be flexible in coming up with a wording that most can agree on. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 18:53, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- I read this section first and expected to agree with ChildofMidnight and Abrazame, but then I went to go check the sources, which support the text fully. I'm not at all clear on how it is "taken out of context" from the NYT article, considering that is the context of the article. It also explains how a not-yet-elected Senate candidate was selected to give the keynote speech at the nominating convention, which is a fact that seems rather odd without the proper context. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 20:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you Bbatsell - that is exactly right. I'm not inclined to compromise on this one, as it is so clearly the point of the source, and true to boot. Tvoz/talk 03:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- If in fact the "unexpectedness" of his victory in a Senate primary race was the reason he was selected as the keynote speaker (according to good sources), that would be interesting to note and explain in the body of the article. In the lead (introduction), the reader has no idea what this unexpectedness is all about. It makes it seem like people woke up after the election WOWING at the outcome... of the Senate primary in Illinois? This is minor. And I agree with the comments in the section below that Obama's major policy positions and decisions are for more notable. I preferred the old version of the introduction, for what it's worth, and thought it would have been better to update it with major presidential decisions (a couple mentions like the spending bill, appointments, war in Iraq, and Afghanistan decisions) instead of taking out all the details on his Senate career (which probably could have been summarized) and adding this bit about how important the unexpectedness of his Senate primary victory was. Just to be clear, a big part of the problem is saying something is unexpected isn't enough to clarify what that means. Why was it unexpected? What part of it was unexpected? There's none of that context. My suggested edit is simple, take out the word unexpected. If someone wants to move it and explain it elsewhere, that's up to them.ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the point is obviously that the "unexpected" aspect was the "landslide" nature of the victory. As currently worded I suppose it's a bit ambiguous but not a huge problem. I think I tend to agree with C of M on this one point though, i.e. is the word "unexpected" all that necessary, at least in the lede? I think what's really important here is the "landslide victory" itself. Even had a landslide been completely anticipated - and Obama was hardly a total underdog by the final weeks of the campaign, see here ("Obama, meanwhile, has shot up as high as 20 percentage points ahead of Hynes and Hull, according to the latest polls," March 11th) and here ("Though Obama...lagged in polls as late as mid-February, he surged to the front of the pack in recent weeks") - it presumably would still have catapulted him to the front ranks of up-and-coming Democrats. If removing "unexpected" from the sentence ends the argument I think I'm okay with that, though I'm open to being persuaded that the word (or something similar) is particularly important. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, we should remove "unexpected". It's one of those words that newspapers sometimes use but we should not, a word to avoid like "ironic(ally)", "coincidentally", "sadly", "surprisingly", etc. It inserts a narrative voice that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia, some kind of all knowing person who makes a judgment on what is and what is not to be expected. Wikidemon (talk) 04:15, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think the point is obviously that the "unexpected" aspect was the "landslide" nature of the victory. As currently worded I suppose it's a bit ambiguous but not a huge problem. I think I tend to agree with C of M on this one point though, i.e. is the word "unexpected" all that necessary, at least in the lede? I think what's really important here is the "landslide victory" itself. Even had a landslide been completely anticipated - and Obama was hardly a total underdog by the final weeks of the campaign, see here ("Obama, meanwhile, has shot up as high as 20 percentage points ahead of Hynes and Hull, according to the latest polls," March 11th) and here ("Though Obama...lagged in polls as late as mid-February, he surged to the front of the pack in recent weeks") - it presumably would still have catapulted him to the front ranks of up-and-coming Democrats. If removing "unexpected" from the sentence ends the argument I think I'm okay with that, though I'm open to being persuaded that the word (or something similar) is particularly important. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 04:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- If in fact the "unexpectedness" of his victory in a Senate primary race was the reason he was selected as the keynote speaker (according to good sources), that would be interesting to note and explain in the body of the article. In the lead (introduction), the reader has no idea what this unexpectedness is all about. It makes it seem like people woke up after the election WOWING at the outcome... of the Senate primary in Illinois? This is minor. And I agree with the comments in the section below that Obama's major policy positions and decisions are for more notable. I preferred the old version of the introduction, for what it's worth, and thought it would have been better to update it with major presidential decisions (a couple mentions like the spending bill, appointments, war in Iraq, and Afghanistan decisions) instead of taking out all the details on his Senate career (which probably could have been summarized) and adding this bit about how important the unexpectedness of his Senate primary victory was. Just to be clear, a big part of the problem is saying something is unexpected isn't enough to clarify what that means. Why was it unexpected? What part of it was unexpected? There's none of that context. My suggested edit is simple, take out the word unexpected. If someone wants to move it and explain it elsewhere, that's up to them.ChildofMidnight (talk) 03:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you Bbatsell - that is exactly right. I'm not inclined to compromise on this one, as it is so clearly the point of the source, and true to boot. Tvoz/talk 03:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I read this section first and expected to agree with ChildofMidnight and Abrazame, but then I went to go check the sources, which support the text fully. I'm not at all clear on how it is "taken out of context" from the NYT article, considering that is the context of the article. It also explains how a not-yet-elected Senate candidate was selected to give the keynote speech at the nominating convention, which is a fact that seems rather odd without the proper context. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 20:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
←I'm afraid I disagree. The sources directly support that his win and its landmark size were unexpected - we're not making the judgment, the sources are. Why are we bending over backward to not say something that is the characterization of the sources? Examples:
- But Mr. Obama, a state senator from Chicago, awoke Wednesday to a deluge of national attention, a result of his overwhelming victory the night before by margins unforeseen by any polls or guesses. (NYT ref)
- Obama, 42, whose initial campaign strategy was to build a coalition of blacks and liberal whites, instead surprised even his strategists by amassing broad support from throughout the party. (Trib ref)
- Three weeks ago, state Sen. Barack Obama appeared to be an also-ran among the eight Democrats running in Illinois for the nomination to an open U.S. Senate seat. (USA Today ref)
I think it is a fair word to use, and since the unexpected Senate primary win was arguably an extremely significant step in his rise, as it certainly led to the national exposure and the speculation about his future etc - it belongs in the lead. I don't necessarily object to expanding the lead if we get consensus about that, but we don't need to cut an accurate descriptive word to do that. I don't think it's the most important word in the article, but I think, as I said, it is accurate, well-supported, summarizes the article properly, and I see no reason to take it out. Tvoz/talk 07:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
More than 60 days in office and not one word about his Presidency
The man has been POTUS since late January and there is not one word about his Presidency. Not one word about his order to deploy additional troops to Afghanistan, not one word about an $800 billion stimulus plan, not one word about the multiple WH plans regarding the financial industry. Don't you think the first 60+ days of this administration are newsworthy? 98.218.226.1 (talk) 02:53, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- Uh, which article are you reading? Did you miss the section headed, cleverly, "Presidency"? This is a summary-style article, so the details and longer discussions will be found in the sub articles that are listed under the headings - as in Presidency of Barack Obama - but there is indeed a short summary of the beginning of his presidency right here in our article, talking about the things you mention and more. And, by the way, "newsworthy" is not our standard here - we're not writing a news article, we're writing an encyclopedia biography of his whole life and career. Take another look at the article. Tvoz/talk 03:08, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- True, in principle, Wikipedia is not a newspaper, but in practice it reports on what's very new. (As hinted by what we see at the top right of the top page.) And the notability guidelines aren't so far from "Has this at some time been newsworthy?" -- Hoary (talk) 03:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's a good point, although I do think "notable" and "newsworthy" are a little different. But ok, on that.04:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I'm assuming the anon is a newbie. I suggest a See also section be added to the article. That should prevent the misconception that Obama's presidency isn't being covered in Wikipedia. SMP0328. (talk) 03:19, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- I think we've exhausted the "See also" discussion already - they are throughout the article and I don't think that is what the problem was here. And yes, he/she is probably a newbie, but newbies can read, and there's not much evidence that this person read the article. Is our "Presidency" section not exactly what he says we say "not one word" about? Does it not have a clearly marked pointer that says Main article: Presidency of Barack Obama? Sorry, but AGF only goes so far. Tvoz/talk 04:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
- True, in principle, Wikipedia is not a newspaper, but in practice it reports on what's very new. (As hinted by what we see at the top right of the top page.) And the notability guidelines aren't so far from "Has this at some time been newsworthy?" -- Hoary (talk) 03:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)