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[[User:Pierre.cardoone|Pierre.cardoone]] ([[User talk:Pierre.cardoone|talk]]) 21:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC) |
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:Not a [[WP:RS|reliable source]]. Also, ''The Coultergeist'' is in "bonkersville", to use a term in her own article. -- [[User:Scjessey|Scjessey]] ([[User talk:Scjessey|talk]]) 21:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 21:06, 22 July 2008
Barack Obama is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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Rezko Again
Apropos this addition,[4] are we done with Rezko or not? I've reverted for now because additions like this need to be discussed on the talk page per the steps we took to calm last month's trouble. I thought we had moved on. Is there any need to re-open it now? If we re-open the question of revamping the Rezko material we can consider this new change but we should put cards are on the table, including the possibility of scaling back existing coverage. I also wonder if it's a good idea to consider two contentious matters at the same time. Wikidemo (talk) 06:11, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- This edit looks out of process to me. After a month of discussion, virtually every editor strongly opposed such long and POV description. The addition is brand new, long, contentious, and poorly written paragraph. Maximally oppose adding this material. LotLE×talk 06:30, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Lulu, your I'm sure sincere critique sounds like sloganeering to me. Short and sweet I'd just referenced the embarrassment that an early Obama contributor had later been convicted for corruption unrelated to Obama. But if it was too long you could suggest how to recast it more economically, if it's too yuckily written you could suggest how to wordsmith and phrasesmith it aright. And as for your hyperbole of its contentiousness----although it's never been my goal to imply anything negative about Obama whatsoever (I like O, support him, will vote for him), I think the basic circumstance of the Rezco matter deserves brief mention since it's obviously considered important by the serious sources that go into B's early years in politics. Justmeherenow ( ) 07:22, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agree completely with LotLE that this material should not have been added - and agree with Wikidemo's revert. We've already considered this to death, Die4 - you might want to spend some time reading the talk archives - but be sure you're in a comfortable chair. Tvoz/talk 06:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- The amount of talk generated is indeed impressive. Consensus can change and I for one am willing to go back and work though these things again.Die4Dixie (talk) 13:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Considering the bruising debate literally just ended, I doubt consensus has changed since the weekend. Barring new developments surrounding the issue, I doubt you'll find many people willing to take up the matter again. --Clubjuggle T/C 16:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid if long-time contributors can't see how zero mention anywhere of Rezco mars WP's coverage and don't notice that the guidelines' suggest the inclusion of reasonably balanced and well-sourced contributions, only later to refine them and worry about their most proper placement, this doesn't speak well to the effectiveness of these editors' self-supposed neutrality.Justmeherenow ( ) 18:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)- "zero mention anywhere"? See Barack Obama#Family and personal life (2nd paragraph). Then click the link in the 2nd sentence. There's an entire article about Rezko here, with a convenient link to it from this article. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- To be honest, the talkpage Rezko commentary was so convoluted I never really read any of it; then when I did finally read Lizza's New Yorker mention of Rezko in context of B's initial foray into politics, I made my suggested contribution, but only after skimming the article and somehow getting the impression that mention of him had been excised still pending an elusive compromise among the talk page War and Peacers. But the long and the short of it is that I have to apologize here for my brain lock. Justmeherenow ( ) 19:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- JMHN, you can surely be forgiven for that. A lot of good editors were driven off. Even Noroton was driven off in the end. By the time Rick Block called the question on a drastically shortened version, the only editors left were the ones who have been fighting the inclusion of any criticism all along. Minus one of their number of course, who was afraid of beng outed, I suspect, as a Democratic Party operative. Inevitably Rezko must come up again, if only because the conservative 527s are going to inevitably use any controversy to Swiftboat Obama. Hopefully the group of editors who discuss the future editing of the Rezko bit and other avenues of criticism will be more balanced and less acrimonous. WorkerBee74 (talk) 15:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- "zero mention anywhere"? See Barack Obama#Family and personal life (2nd paragraph). Then click the link in the 2nd sentence. There's an entire article about Rezko here, with a convenient link to it from this article. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Considering the bruising debate literally just ended, I doubt consensus has changed since the weekend. Barring new developments surrounding the issue, I doubt you'll find many people willing to take up the matter again. --Clubjuggle T/C 16:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- The amount of talk generated is indeed impressive. Consensus can change and I for one am willing to go back and work though these things again.Die4Dixie (talk) 13:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agree completely with LotLE that this material should not have been added - and agree with Wikidemo's revert. We've already considered this to death, Die4 - you might want to spend some time reading the talk archives - but be sure you're in a comfortable chair. Tvoz/talk 06:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Superfluous information
The discussion on the fact that Obama is not a Muslim keeps growing out of proportion. Some editors (mostly one) keep finding material that is "interesting", and expanding the discussion to include each new cite and quote. I do not even disagree that the material is interesting, nor that it's properly cited, but try to remember that this is a main biography. This and that ancillary person concurring that Obama is a Christian, or more-and-more trivia about the fact, doesn't convey anything further about the minimal encyclopedic point.
In particular, this sentence was recently added (repeatedly) without discussion by a certain editor:
- James Zogby, president of the Arab American Institute expressed in a news report (reacting in part to a satirical New Yorker cover) that ethnic caricature involving faulty depiction of Obama's faith harms Muslim Americans, impeding their "opportunity to participate in the political process."[1]
Zogby's a good guy, and makes an intelligent comment. The New Yorker cover is notable over at Wikinews. All of it adds up to material that has no relevance to a main biography. It's pure WP:RECENTism, and brings the tone down to chatty discussion of issues rather than encyclopedic presentation of facts. Moreover, the real topic of the sentence only uses Obama as a vague touchstone, while actually being about the other (interesting) topic of the position of Muslim communities in the US political process, or something along those lines. This material just doesn't belong in this article. LotLE×talk 20:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
- Setting actual positions aside for a sec, Lulu----let's talk "m.o." When an article is watched by a crowd, if a Wikicontributor makes a deletion that raises a controversy with a Wikicolleague, proper Wikietiquette says, "Wait and see if another Wikicontributor steps in who agrees with ya and if not, just let it be."
- Wikiwatchers will murmur, "Whoah! Two casual bystanders in agreement. Powerful"----or else, "Hmm! Noone else around agrees. Must not reflect much consensus, or at least for the moment."
- Of course, hovering and multi-deleting is OK----it just makes the person sticking hi/r neck out there into a lightening rod. Which is fine if that's what you want. Justmeherenow ( ) 07:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I think I see your misunderstanding. Take a look at the "proper" flow at WP:BRD. If an addition is contentious (as yours have been), it is the responsibility of the proposing editor to take it to the talk page. It is bad wikiquette to try to edit war to force an addition that (so far) only a single editor has supported. Event though it is your job as editor proposing addition to discuss it, in a fullness of WP:AGF, I have brought it here on your behalf. LotLE×talk 08:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as they say, Lulu, concerning our respective styles of contributing. Still, take my feedback FWIW. I see somebody who rides herd on things you just don't like, even when they're not obviously improper; so, you play the Label Game. That is, you so convince yourself of Zogby's Controversiality, you think it a slam dunk to revert-and-rerevert with no need for others' input, even on a page with a history of warring----with you as a not-incidental participant! (Your right to do.) Then you begin the verbal onslaught to color your actions as merely expedient against somebody you label The Other, the Opponent of Virtue, of some kind, eg by coming to "Talk" and saying that my plural contributions are "controversial," but only bringing to this page the example of Zogby. Which generalizing, in my belief, is an m.o. of a controversialist. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's the rep you desire.) Justmeherenow ( ) 09:53, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- You have misunderstood, I am afraid, Justmeherenow. I have no claim about Zogby being controversial. The edits you made adding his comments are controversial. This controversy is self-proven by the sentiment of another editor (me) that the material is not proper for inclusion in the article. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any external politics of whether the inclusion is left or right, pro- or con-, or whatever; it simply a matter of whether there is lack of dispute for the new material's encyclopedic value. The burden for addition of new material is always on the editor proposing addition. LotLE×talk 18:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Please stop blocking criticism of Obama
I remember when we had a lot more editors actively taking part on this page. Many good editors have been driven off. We have also seen one of the editors who were blocking all criticism of Obama, abandoning a long-term account of many years because he was concerned that he would be outed. I suspect the information that would have been revealed was that he was linked in some manner to the Obama campaign or the Democratic Party.
Others were helping him, however, and using tactics that were not in WP's best traditions or best interests: and by the time Rick Block called the question after offering a drastically shortened version of the Rezko material, they were the only ones left to vote.
Please stop blocking material that may cause Obama to be criticized. You know that compared to George W. Bush, Tony Blair on the day it became a Featured Article, and other WP biographies about similarly situated politicians, this article contains a severe shortage of anything that resembles criticism, but you continue to employ every trick and stratagem in the book to block its introduction.
I am inviting Scjessey, LotLE and Noroton to join me in mediation.
If you are blocking criticism solely for the sake of blocking criticism:
Please stop. Examine your motives. Compare this biography to other biographies about similar people, and allow this article to reflect WP:WELLKNOWN: if it is notable and well-sourced, it belongs in the article, even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. WorkerBee74 (talk) 14:49, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- To clarify, I didn't "call the question". I suggested a shortened version, a variant of which was introduced by this edit, not made by me. I actually didn't notice this edit until several days later. I'll also note that the reason the long term editor left is not precisely known and your supposition about the reason has no basis in fact. Some editors here make no particular effort to hide their real world identities. Some editors apparently go to great lengths such as creating a WP:SPA and using it only from what they know are untraceable IP addresses. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:13, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Starting this section is an
auspiciousaudacious way to return to the article after a week-long block for incivility and wikigaming. I suggest we either ignore it, or close it as incitement not reasonably directed to improving the article, and ask editors not to incite things by using the talk pages to complain about other editors. Wikidemo (talk) 17:38, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Starting this section is an
- ... your supposition about the reason has no basis in fact. Well, he was fighting like hell to keep anything that resembled criticism out of an article about a very prominent Democratic politician, using false accusations as a primary method of debate; and then someone did a search and discovered that he had a COI. Very abruptly, he stopped fighting like hell and went into hiding (WP equivalent). That's a pretty good basis in fact. Actions speak louder than words. It's likely that he was a Democratic Party operative, and it's possible that he differed from other Democratic Party operatives on this page only in his lack of discretion about covering his tracks.
- ... an auspicious way to return to this article ... I'm asking for mediation. Let's see whether anyone would like to resolve this through mediation, Wikidemo. Would you be interested in that? Or do you like the way things have been going on this page? WorkerBee74 (talk) 19:52, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- No, I do not think mediation would be productive. That seems like yet more wikigaming and prolonging an already-resolved issue, and by opening the matter with the above statement attacking other editors you're pretty much guaranteeing that the process will be contentious. Your contributions to this page have been disruptive in the long term. It would go far to improve conditions on the page were you to stop editing here, as has been proposed a number of times at AN/I. Wikidemo (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- ... already-resolved issue ... If you think this is resolved, you've got another think coming. We haven't even started talking about Ayers yet, the ACORN material is following the same tired pattern of disagree/ provoke/ report, and the Rezko paragraph will inevitably be reopened no later than September 3, when he gets sentenced and the 527s start Swiftboating Obama for it. I'd like to resolve all of these content disputes amicably, under the supervision of a large group of people experienced in dispute resolution; so that they can see for themselves who's really gaming the system, and who's really got the best interests of the WP project as their only agenda. WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:05, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is no "disagree / provoke / report" pattern - that accusation is just more of the rancor you're bringing to the article. I trust the "another think coming" isn't going to be from you. If one or more seasoned editors / administrators were willing to moderate this article and its talk page that might help. However, to date they all seem to think conditions here are too contentious for them to do any good. A formal mediation process removed from this discussion page, with the contentious editors at the table who should have been topic banned already, seems unlikely to do any good either. Wikidemo (talk) 20:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- The disagree/ provoke/ report pattern is well established here; and now everyone can see who is offering mediation, who is refusing it, and who is claiming that others "should have been topic banned already." WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said above, there does not appear to be an ongoing content dispute with anything you have previously been involved with. The Rezko issue has been dealt with, and you would have to begin a new consensus-building process to even get to a point where mediation might be necessary. Mention of Bill Ayers has no place in this article, because Obama's tenuous relationship with Ayers is an insignificant detail with respect to his entire life (and vice versa). It received a tiny bit of attention during the primaries, so it might warrant a brief mention in the campaign article. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- So once again the stability of this article is being threatened by Worker Bee's clear partisanship. Ayers does not belong in here, and Rezko has appropriate weight. Rezko's sentencing should not change anything in this article; if Swiftboating occurs, it would at most belong as a mention in the campaign article. The point about relevance to the man's entire life is, of course, exactly on target - this is not a campaign piece, it is a biography. I wonder how many times that has to be said. And I agree with Wikidemo's comment about topic banning of contentious editors - should have happened long ago. And I further agree that this section should be closed - its title and intro proves the point. Tvoz/talk 20:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- All of this must be covered in an WP essay somewhere that rouses contributors to pick up rhetorical swords and silence anybody holding a minority position or viewpoint (which by its nature involves controversy as to whether it's to be reflected in mainspace and how). Could somebody point me to it? 'Cause this telling of another contributor essentially "F/u, you ought to have been banned" etc. feels out of order to me. Justmeherenow ( ) 21:09, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is no attempt to silence minority opinions, and please don't jump into the discussion with that kind of reflexive accusation of bad faith. This is a long-term disruptive editor and proven WP:SOCK who has been dragging this article and its editors through the mud for nearly two months now. There's an AN/I report right now, so if you wish to comment more on the subject please direct your efforts there. This page is for discussions related to improving the article. Wikidemo (talk) 21:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know if think your comment was in bad faith as much as it's my impression it didn't address how to edit this article so much as it was letting your a/n/i type commentary leak out onto this talkpage. Justmeherenow ( ) 22:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC) However I'm not gonna to look at diffs or comment at the an/i. I'd warned WB74 before (ie patronizingly scolded) to at minumum work on demeanor so as to try and avoid heat from Wiki powers that be. Justmeherenow ( ) 02:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- You're off base. There's no picking up swords, no silencing, no telling anyone off. There's simply an attempt to deal with an editor who has ruined the editing environment here through long-term disruption. AN/I is for raising issues that need administrative intervention. It was not until his last comment here,[6] where he turns his disingenuous appeal for mediation into a way of attacking me, that I thought the issue was ripe for AN/I. I don't need to be scolded or patronized over that, and it's unhelpful because it only enables him and prolongs the trouble when you take his side. He's already picked up on your "fuck you" language and he's berating me via a sock account over at AN/I.[7] Because it is there now, so there is not much more to be said here. Wikidemo (talk) 23:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Try to understand it from this perspective. A single-purpose account user, who has contributed nothing but disruption, edit warring and a lack of civility, has returned from a week-long behavioral block and immediately "requested mediation" on a long-since resolved content dispute. His first post upon returning to this talk page is an accusatory, inflammatory diatribe against perceived censorship that features claims of conflict of interest and "driving off" other editors. How exactly are we supposed to respond to that? -- Scjessey (talk) 21:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- {§ I remember when Shem had just been doing mostly the odd edits here and there to Barack Obama mainspace before he first made his splash onto the talk page to advocate heavily re the original Ayers "vote." I remember reading something he'd written somewhere, not on the article, that had led me to imagine even way back then that he was involved in the campaign somehow, obviously something completely independent from WB74's speculation to that effect now. Is such speculation pointless? Sure. But so is, I think, decrying the situation that lead to Shem's taking leave from us. He spoke his piece here and then he decided to go. Life goes on.}
Surfing Wikipedia, I come across the tidbit that in 2002 a congressman in Peru, Eittel Ramos, challenged the country's Vice President, David Waisman to a duel; these guys are priviledged with contemporary versions of title and nobility (immunity from petty prosecutions, their views generally given no small weight, etc.) Look folks, King Jimbo's empowered the whole lot of us in this wiki to contribute here----so, Your Excellencies, let's pull the huge feathers out of our three-pointed hats and quit wanting to push our sword through the gut of some fellow when we feel our honor's been impugned and go back to our desks and channel all such disagreements through WP's version of Parliamentary procedure, shan't we? Justmeherenow ( ) 22:02, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- {§ I remember when Shem had just been doing mostly the odd edits here and there to Barack Obama mainspace before he first made his splash onto the talk page to advocate heavily re the original Ayers "vote." I remember reading something he'd written somewhere, not on the article, that had led me to imagine even way back then that he was involved in the campaign somehow, obviously something completely independent from WB74's speculation to that effect now. Is such speculation pointless? Sure. But so is, I think, decrying the situation that lead to Shem's taking leave from us. He spoke his piece here and then he decided to go. Life goes on.}
- I strongly believe that serious mediation, entered into in good faith by all parties to the content dispute (and let's not pretend there isn't one) would be very constructive. Someone here claims he wants more senior editors and admins involved? Well, the Mediation Cabal is packed with them. Anyone trying to game the system will be quickly found out. But here I am, suggesting mediation. And there Wikidemo is, refusing mediation. WorkerBee74 (talk) 01:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing to mediate. This article has moved on since you were blocked for your disruptive behavior, and the content dispute was resolved (in large part due to the absence of your disruptive influence). All you are trying to do is re-ignite an old argument because the resolution doesn't fit your point of view. If you have new content concerns, express them here and try to build a consensus for changes. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- There's plenty of things to mediate, not the least of which are your conduct and LotLE's. This conduct was the topic of WP:ANI threads by respected, well-established, trusted, non-SPA editor Noroton, so it's not something I'm making up; there are others who have noticed that you're not exactly a pair of angels. This goes hand in hand with the illegitimate resolution of the Rezko content dispute. At the start, there were 15 editors participating and the ones who wanted to include more criticism had a 9-6 majority. At the end, there were only three: Tvoz, LotLE and SCJ. The rest had been driven off, or prevented from participating because they were IP editors, or baited and tormented into conduct that was then reported at ANI with demands for a block. Even Noroton had been driven off. There's also the following Ayers question, which is already undeniably an unresolved content dispute. WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Directed to all, let's in general keep the an/i page completely separate from this one somehow. Discipline ourselves from harping on past stuff. Cut down somewhat on the repetetiveness of our
arguementsarguments. (Can't spell.) Justmeherenow ( ) 14:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Directed to all, let's in general keep the an/i page completely separate from this one somehow. Discipline ourselves from harping on past stuff. Cut down somewhat on the repetetiveness of our
Time to talk about William Ayers
Since the Bill Ayers election controversy is sufficiently notable to have its own rather long WP article, and since it's only this election that makes Obama more notable than Jon Tester or any other freshman senator with a 300-word biography, the Obama/Ayers relationship is notable enough to be included in this biography. All my previous observations about the prevalence of criticism in WP biographies about prominent politicians, including Tony Blair on the day it won Featured Article status, are still very appropriate. WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:51, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not s'posed to argue what I'm about to, but here goes. In Lizza of the NYer's seminal, contextual narrative about B's political immersion before the milestone of his Illinois senate service, Ayers is mentioned in a couple of sentences. Now's the part where I gotta whole lotta splainin to do. Therefore, lol, we'd not be remiss if we ourselves only dedicate----whatever percentage a-few-mentions-out-of-a-half-score-pages is----of this preliminary period's coverage to user-of-flag-as-patio-mat Ayers (which preliminary period's entire narrative in B's WP bio, as chronologically dedicated to it, is thus far zero incidentally anyway. That is, about 1% of our article's at present zero mention of pre-Illiois-senate-service political activities: 1% x 0 being 0). Justmeherenow ( ) 14:43, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
But there is no mention of, for instance, John Hagee on John McCain's page.--The Bruce (talk) 14:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps there should be. Was Hagee the co-founder of a terrorist organization that set off bombs on US soil? WorkerBee74 (talk) 15:13, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Is that supposed to be a joke about Hagee's claim about terrorism by God in New Orleans? Just wondering. If so, maybe you should take up drawing cartoons for The New Yorker. (Hagee has also attacked Catholicism, Islam, homosexuality and Jews, according to his article. I don't believe he has been specific as to whether their death and destruction should come on or off US soil. There's also Rod Parsley and now Bud Day.) Flatterworld (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- I believe there's a fairly strong argument that any mention of Ayers here would violate both the "Undue weight" and "Neutrality and verifiability" sections of the WP:NPOV policy. I think it's easier to talk about concrete rather than abstract suggestions, so what specific wording would you propose adding and where? -- Rick Block (talk) 16:27, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Any mention of Ayers violates WP:WEIGHT. Simple problem, fully solved. LotLE×talk 18:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- LotLE, you don't WP:OWN the article, so dismissing the problem as "fully solved" exhibits a flippancy that, if I had exhibited it, Wikidemo would have raced over to WP:ANI to start a thread about. Please dial it down. Rick, I don't see any point in writing at any length about the controversy in this biography. But since the other article exists and no one here has nominated it for deletion, it is a significant event in Obama's life. I was thinking of something like this, in chronological order in the presidential campaign section:
The Bill Ayers election controversy made headlines after George Stephanopoulos, moderating a televised debate on April 19, started by asking Obama about his relationship with Ayers. As a co-founder of the 1970s anti-war group Weather Underground, William Ayers had set off bombs in the Pentagon and other US targets.
- WP:FRINGE is inapplicable, WP:WELLKNOWN and WP:NPOV demand its inclusion, and WP:WEIGHT is rather vague. It has no specific, precise formula indicating how much material to include. I think two sentences is a little short but a reasonable compomise with folk like LotLE. WorkerBee74 (talk) 21:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Quote:"...William Ayers had set off bombs in the Pentagon and other US targets."
- The Ayers article seems to need an overhaul. It's states:
- "Later in 1969, Ayers participated in planting a bomb at a statue dedicated to police casualties in the 1886 Haymarket Riot.[7] The blast broke almost 100 windows and blew pieces of the statue onto the nearby Kennedy Expressway.[8] The statue was rebuilt and unveiled on May 4, 1970, and blown up again by Weatherman on October 6, 1970"
- Mmmmh... --Floridianed (talk) 22:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- And what does any of this have to do with Obama? I could perhaps see a footnote-ish reference in Barack Obama presidential primary campaign, 2008 but is there any evidence this had any impact on the campaign, let alone Obama's life? From WP:NPOV#Neutrality and verifiability: A matter that is both verifiable and supported by reliable sources might nonetheless be proposed to make a point or cited selectively; painted by words more favorably or negatively than is appropriate; made to look more important or more dubious than a neutral view would present; marginalized or given undue standing; described in slanted terms which favor or weaken it; or subject to other factors suggestive of bias. This seems to me to be nothing more than an attempt to connect Obama to Ayers's past. -- Rick Block (talk) 23:31, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- DITO! My intention (regarding my comment above) was to show how misleading WB's proposal is, even in the facts about Ayers, (not to mention the non existing connection between Obama and Ayers radical past). It is a non-issue in my opinion ["undue-weight" is indeed a concern] as I similar stated quite some time ago. Let me state the basics here again. Ayers: If mentioned at all, just very very briefly. Rezko: To be mentioned but still pretty briefly. Wright: To be mentioned for sure, less briefly but w/o going over the top with to many details especially about Wright himself. For all those three: Make sure there is a WP-link within the text to lead to those individuals for readers looking for more information. Wright and Rezko is already covered (not the way I would have done it but I'm "ok" with it). So now we're stuck with Ayers and if we could agree on "not blowing this issue out of proportion" by staying on the facts while discussing, there might be a chance to get a result and consensus in a reasonable amount of time. --Floridianed (talk) 00:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Ayers issue is a non-starter
On the substance there doesn't seem to be any relevance or importance to Bill Ayers via-v-vis Barack Obama. It did not figure significantly in his life, and it did not affect either in any real way. As the New Yorker piece (Ryan Lizza (2008-07-21). "Making It:How Chicago shaped Obama". New Yorker.) describes, Obama was associated with dozens if not hundreds of politicians, fundraisers, businesspeople, and other and prominent community members in his rise to power. We cover only a few of the most important - Ayers was nowhere near being important, a footnote if even that in Chicago politics.
On the sources establishing weight / importance, Obama/Ayers gets 450 news hits,[8] as compared to 175,000 for Obama overall[9] Only 1 in 400 news pieces about Obama even mentions Ayers, and most of those are either not the focus of the article, or in blogs and editorials, or both. Nobody else seems to think it's important either.
On the weight issue I've I've looked at the weight we give various people and issues. See my new subpage, Talk:Barack Obama/weight. Of the 45 people we mention 10 are family members and 6 are people who simply commented about him. Of the 29 others, 17 are fellow politicians he ran against or sponsored legislation with (of all persuasions), and only 12 can be said to be friends, associates, or colleagues - of which 8 are his campaign or senate staffers. That leaves only four people we mention as being informal associates - the two pastors Pfleger and Wright, his close strategist Axelrod, and Rezko as a scandal / controversy and mid-level campaign supporter. I just don't see the room in there to start adding people he had a casual relationship with and who happen to be former terrorists - it's not balanced. The New Yorker piece, which is twice as long yet only covers about 1/4 of the territory as this article, devotes 2 sentences to Ayers (dividing up sentences that discuss multiple people). It covers 81 people in total, 34 to a greater degree than Ayers, 43 less than Ayers, and 3 get the same 2 sentences. Just by math that would suggest Ayers deserves 1/4 sentence here (i.e. zip)... but before even thinking about that we should consider some of the 34 more important people. Of them many of the ones most important to Obama's Chicago power base are simply not covered here: Toni Preckwinkle - 33.75 sentences there, not covered here; Will Burns - 27.75 sentences there, none here; Emil Jones - 27.5 sentences there, none here; Alice Palmer - 18.5 sentences there, 1/2 here; Bobby Rush - 16.5 sentences there, 1 here; and so on. In fact, of the 34 people who figure more prominently into the New Yorker article than Ayers, only 8 are mentioned at all in our article. And the New Yorker piece is on the very subject for which Ayers is supposedly notable, how Obama chose his friends and associates in his early political rise in Chicago.
Thus, Ayers doesn't pass the test for weight or relevance, either logically, by looking at reliable sources, or by a detailed analysis of how much space we and others give to various events. It's a no brainer. I think it's very unlikely at this point that Ayers can be included here, or that there are sources out there at this point that can make a case that he should.
This whole discussion came up out of turn. I suggest we wrap this up and move on to something more productive. Wikidemo (talk) 00:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- My best 2¢ is, ----What Wikidemo says. Justmeherenow ( ) 02:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you "squeeze-in" please make it notable. Thanks --Floridianed (talk) 04:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, Floridianed. It's just I'd mentioned analyzing the percentage of Ayers' being mentioned in Lizza's remarkable piece up above (did ya notice?) before Wikidemo wrote his amazing treatment of the same idea, hency my "Wish I'd said it that way" comment. Justmeherenow ( ) 04:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you "squeeze-in" please make it notable. Thanks --Floridianed (talk) 04:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm all for "wrapping this up". I just made an edit above the same time you did here and could've spared my time for replying to your comment. Well, now I did and my first sentence says it all ;) --Floridianed (talk) 00:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Response to concerns
The Ayers article seems to need an overhaul. It says ... FE, what you seem to be saying is that I didn't represent the facts accurately. If you'd please read the Weatherman (organization) article, you would find this section: "On 19 May 1972, Ho Chi Minh's birthday, The Weather Underground placed a bomb in the women's bathroom in the Air Force wing of The Pentagon. The damage caused flooding that devastated vital classified information on computer tapes." [10] Please don't base your decision on a misperception. I've represented the facts accurately. All this has bedrock solid sourcing.
And what does any of this have to do with Obama? Rick, the same question was asked about Wright and later about Rezko. Tempers flared and harsh words were posted here. I will answer the same way and hope tempers won't flare this time, and false accusations won't be made this time. The generic challenge that's always made is, "How does this Relationship X have anything to do with Obama?" The answer is, "The most notable news media in the English speaking world, and Obama's political rivals, have made Relationship X an issue in the presidential campaign. Since without the presidential campaign Obama would be as notable as Jon Tester, the controversy should be mentioned with a link to the article about it."
The New Yorker piece ... Isn't an encyclopedia biography, Wikidemo, and should not be used as a guide on how to write one. The guide on how to write a WP biography about a famous politician is, of course, all the other WP biographies about famous politicians, where controversies and scandals thrive. In those other WP biographies, scandal is called "scandal," controversy is called "controversy" and criticism, without hesitation, is called "criticism." These are dealt with in substantial length and detail, even when there is a separate article devoted to the controversy itself. WorkerBee74 (talk) 02:11, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- "The most notable ..." - is this a quote (if so, from where)? Obama's political rivals have attempted to make his relationship with Ayers an issue in the presidential campaign (true fact, lots of sources). The most notable news media in the English speaking world have duly reported on this (true fact, lots of sources - note that these sources have not "made [it] an issue in the presidential campaign", they've reported what the political opponents have said). However, mentioning it in a biographical article on Obama implies significance. But there really doesn't seem to be any. We don't include all news articles related to Obama (like, for example, his recent visits to Iraq and Afghanistan). There are simply too many. Mentioning this particular story gives it a non-zero WP:WEIGHT, implying either Obama has a significant relationship with Ayers (which I don't think anyone has claimed is the case) or that this story had some effect on the election. The fact that it was reported is simply not sufficient reason to include it. We similarly do not include McCain's relationship with Vicki Iseman in the main article on McCain, even though (in contrast to Obama's "relationship" with Ayers) McCain spent significant time with Iseman and supported her clients' interests on multiple occasions. Per WP:NOT, all content hosted in Wikipedia is not: Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise. -- Rick Block (talk) 03:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Nexis is an extremely powerful tool in circumstances such as this. A search can be structured with exquisite precision. I am finding a lot of prominent news media sources that discuss Obama's relationship with Ayers, without even mentioning McCain, Hillary or any other political rival of Obama's. The New Yorker article just cited by Wikidemo is an example of another type of noteworthy news media treatment: while (A) the Ayers relationship is explored and (B) McCain and/or Hillary get a mention, A is not directly linked to B. The article does not discuss any criticism from the political rivals regarding Ayers. So the media are not simply reporting attacks by political rivals as you claimed.
- (By the way, that New Yorker article is a marvelous source for a few other tidbits that I'll be exploring in a couple of days.)
- A comparison with McCain and Iseman is not valid, as we have previously discussed on my Talk page. Thanks for your response, but you've offered a false dichotomy here: mentioning Ayers in this article implies that either (A) the relationship was significant, or (B) the controversy had a provable impact on Obama's electability. I suggest that we have at least a (C) here: see WP:WELLKNOWN. If it's notable and well-sourced, it belongs in the article, even if it's negative and Obama dislikes all mention of it. The fact that there is a controversy, and that it's significant enough to have a very substantial and well-sourced WP article on it, indicates that it's notable enough to be mentioned here with a link.
- I point out also that on the AfD, the consensus among the uninvolved editors is Keep. WorkerBee74 (talk) 14:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- You keep on mentioning WP:WELLKNOWN as if it's some kind of magic wand that makes your points valid, but that simply isn't the case. Although Obama is well known, his alleged relationship with Bill Ayers is not. What little of a relationship exists isn't even controversial - they have briefly worked together on the Woods Fund. What of it? The "relationship" was briefly notable when it came up in a TV debate, but beyond that it is all but non-existent (apart from by the right-wing propaganda machine, of course). So any mention of this so-called "relationship" in this BLP would be a gross violation of WP:WEIGHT. Furthermore, any attempt to shoehorn it into the article would only be for the purposes of linking Obama to Ayers' alleged misdeeds, and guilt-by-association is expressly frowned upon in WP:BLP.
- As far as the AFD is concerned, I will also point out that the discussion there has caused me to rethink my initial nomination. I still think it is a non-neutral piece of POV garbage, but I conceded it may have value. It definitely needs to be renamed though, as the current title is completely misleading. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Policy is indeed the magic wand here, SCJ. There's nothing "alleged" about the relationship. It is confirmed by many reliable sources. A prominent Chicago physician who advocates socialized medicine described Obama and Ayers as "friends." Three years in the lifespan of a man in his 40s cannot reasonably be described as "briefly" but they served together on the Woods Fund board for three years. They've also appeared together on at least two panel discussions and Ayers participated in the launching of Obama's career in politics in 1995. WP isn't attempting guilt by association, merely reporting the reactions of notable news media and notable politicians to this friendship of many years. WorkerBee74 (talk) 16:15, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh come now, WB74, that's just incredibly misleading. Their connection has been correctly described as "tenuous". Let's drop this smear campaign now, shall we? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- A mention of Ayers is not going to happen - no consensus to so at this point to include, well-founded objections from several that the information is POV and trivial/irrelevant, it's been discussed at length without resulting in consensus, and this new discussion isn't going anywhere. I don't see much point repeating myself but my own position until further notice is a firm "no." I'm not sure if there's anything else to talk about right now about the article but if there is we should move on to that. Wikidemo (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh come now, WB74, that's just incredibly misleading. Their connection has been correctly described as "tenuous". Let's drop this smear campaign now, shall we? -- Scjessey (talk) 16:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing the least bit misleading about anything I have said here, SCJ. Nor am I engaged in a smear campaign and your baiting and provocation is not going to work. In your opinion, the Washington Post blogger's description of the relationship as "tenuous" is correct. But that's all it is: your opinion. WorkerBee74 (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yet if we were to sandbox a short section about political activities prior Obama's legislative service, would it be reasonable to propose a sentence about Ayers that would fit into the context of that? Justmeherenow ( ) 16:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is in fact a paragraph on Obama's early political activities in the "Early life and career" section. Developing Communities Project and Gamaliel Foundation are briefly mentioned. I noticed someone named Gamaliel posting in the AfD, wonder if there's a connection. WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Visiting Service members in Combat Zone / War zone
Obama came to the combat and for some reason people are not allowing it. My personal opinion they are McCain supportors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronjohn (talk • contribs) 18:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- For the umpteenth time, please be civil when talking to other Wikipedians. Your edits are being reverted because of Wikipedia policies, such as WP:NOT#NEWS and WP:WEIGHT. There is no political motivation involved. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict - addressed to Ronjohn) You seem to be a little inexperienced about Wikipedia. Please note the assume good faith and no personal attacks policies. Also, you've inserted the material 5 times in the last few minutes which means your account is subject to a block at any time - best to promise that you won't do it again if you want to avoid that. We don't know for sure how anyone is going to vote; few here have announced there political positions. But if it helps, if you look at the article history the three people who have objected to the material are citing value-neutral objections (trivial, not news), and have also objected to the inclusion of biased anti-Obama material in the article as well. Wikidemo (talk) 18:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
A US Senator visiting a combat zone where people die not notable Im confused as to how that is trival. if this is so trival why is there a picture of him up playing with deployed service members in 2006 when he visited us at Camp Arifjan before. There's not even a vote in process you guys just keep deleting it without even creating a discussion. --Ron John (talk) 18:44, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Wikinews is an excellent place to work on user-editable descriptions of current events. I believe that with the unified login system, you should be able to access it using the same user account that you've established on WP. LotLE×talk 18:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Note that User:Ronjohn has been blocked for a short time for the 3RR/edit-warring. I believe that his contributions were initially made in good faith, but just with a lack of understanding of the focus of different Wikimedia projects and pages. After that, I think he got a bit too caught up in a desire for his specific additions to go in this specific location. Hopefully over the next day, he'll have the opportunity to read relevant WP policies and guidelines, and return as a productive editor. LotLE×talk 21:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
So all of Obama's visit's to the middle east this week will not be highlighted in his wiki article as notable I take it.--Ron John (talk) 08:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC) I'm still convinced you guys are McCain supporters and I'm in-titled to my opinion!
- In the context of Obama's entire life (which this biography represents), the current Middle East/Europe trip is not hugely significant. That being said, it has be a significant event when taken into context with his role as a United States senator. Therefore, it seems likely that coverage will end up in United States Senate career of Barack Obama, although this will obviously depend on the level of reportage and the availability of reliable sources. Hopefully, a public domain image will become available too. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
POV fork nominated for deletion
I urge all interested parties to visit Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Ayers election controversy and consider Bill Ayers election controversy for deletion, due to the fact that it is an obvious POV fork to avoid WP:BLP and WP:WEIGHT. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- .....The whisker of advocacy just above is not a breach of most-proper canvassing, f'r sure; but even if it is, witchit innt, ppl would decide the case on the merits, anyway. Justmeherenow ( ) 03:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the general notification above is the only place I "colored" the notice with my personal thoughts on the matter. The notifications I sent out to individuals who had edited the article in question were unaltered, template-based AFD notices. I do not think this can be classified as canvassing. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe we should capitalize Wikislang to clue ppl in to instances of cyber-street semantics. As in, "I'm canvassing for broad participation while being careful not to be Canvassing." (?) Justmeherenow ( ) 17:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the general notification above is the only place I "colored" the notice with my personal thoughts on the matter. The notifications I sent out to individuals who had edited the article in question were unaltered, template-based AFD notices. I do not think this can be classified as canvassing. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
More info needed on Obama's nine years in Illinois legislature
I've undone this edit by user:WorkerBee74 which adds what seems (to me) to be a highly POV account of the passage of the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Act, sourced to http://www.countercurrents.org/pringle220508.htm (which would appear to be somewhat less than reliable). I suppose we can discuss it if anyone cares to. -- Rick Block (talk) 02:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well let's discuss it Rick. There's a severe shortage of material about Obama's nine years in the Illinois Senate (compared to his three years as a US Senator and 18 months as a presidential candidate), an allegedly unreliable source is effortlessly confirmed using the Illinois legislative record and the well-known and trusted Chicago dailies, and I'll again invoke WP:WELLKNOWN. WorkerBee74 (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- The length of time is not directly proportional to the importance or significance. That being said, the Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama article could certainly benefit from some expansion, provided that expansion did not violate WP:NPOV or WP:RS (as your recent edit to Barack Obama clearly did). Naturally, such an expansion would also have to take WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP in mind as well. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- The amendment to the Illinois Health Facilities Planning Act (IHFPA) was carefully tailored to enable Blagojevich's five appointees to take control of the board. It reduced the number of members from 15 to nine, making five votes a majority: and it achieved the reduction by providing that six Republican appointed members would be removed.
- Within 60 days of the passage of this amendment, these five Blagojevich appointees and their wives donated a total of at least $15,000 to Obama's campaign. (Just one, Michel Malek, donated $10,000 within 30 days of its passage.) I could prove all of this by citing five or six separate unquestionably reliable sources. (SCJ, since you also have Nexis, it's easy enough for you to see what I'm talking about.) Or I could use Countercurrents.org, or one of the other sources where Evelyn Pringle's series of articles has been published. How do you feel about Opednews.com, or Scoop.co.nz?
- And we haven't even started talking about the pension fund yet, or how many thousands of dollars Blagojevich appointees to that board contributed to Obama's campaign. Appearance of impropriety? WorkerBee74 (talk) 12:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- These would be matters for discussion at Talk:Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama, not here. The addition you are proposing is way too much specificity for the BLP. Also, you have described it in a non-neutral manner, with phrases like this: "[It] was carefully tailored to enable Blagojevich's five appointees to take control of the board." Furthermore, there is nothing "improper" about stacking the deck with Democratic appointees, just as it wouldn't be if the roles were reversed. See the current administration, SCOTUS, etc., for spectacular Republican examples of same. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- SCJ - I think you're missing the point. WB's suggesting including allegations of kickbacks for favors granted. Per BLP, doing this anywhere (even implicitly) requires impeccably reliable sources without resorting to WP:SYNTH, conjecture, or speculation. I think it's safe to say this would be HUGE news and, since it doesn't seem to be, I imagine WB will have a very hard time with this. -- Rick Block (talk) 14:59, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Rick, please review the edit you reverted. Nowhere did I even mention these campaign contributions in the article mainspace. But if you'd like, we can certainly go to a very reliable source called OpenSecrets.org, where Michel Malek and the date and amount of his contribution to Obama's campaign are listed (along with the names, dates and amounts of all the other donations from all the other Blagojevich appointees on the Health Facilities Planning Board and teachers pension fund board, who now control billions of dollars in government funds as a result of Obama's legislative efforts).
- Then we can go to the Illinois legislative record and get the dates and the texts of the amendments to these laws and we see Obama's committee reviewed and approved them in record time and he pushed them through the full legislature, just weeks before the money was donated to his campaign.
- Then we can go to the Illinois government websites and look up Michel Malek and all these other appointees, and show that they were appointed by Blagojevich. Then we can show how one of them testified at Rezko's trial in exchange for immunity. Most of the individual portions of this can also be found in the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Sun-Times. SCJ has Nexis just like me, so he can do this in a few minutes if he's so inclined, and if he structures a search properly.
- I'm not violating WP:SYNTH because somebody else named Evelyn Pringle put all of this together. Or, if you prefer, we can just restore the edit you reverted. WorkerBee74 (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- None of this is permissible due to the prohibition on original research. All info in the article must be attributed to a reliable source, and crosscurrents.org does not appear to be a reliable source according to Wikipedia standards. Gamaliel (talk) 16:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's not original research Gamaliel. I didn't do any of the research on this. Evelyn Pringle did. Her work has been published in at least three sources. Let's pick the one that's most reliable.
- SCJ, you know that Bush and his father nominated several justices to the Supreme Court; so imagine the reaction if McCain had sponsored legislation (back in the days when the GOP controlled Congress) reducing the number of Supreme Court justices from nine to six by removing the Clinton appointees (and a moderate Republican like Justice Stevens). And within 60 days of its passage, Justices Alito, Roberts, Thomas and Scalia donated buckets of money to the McCain for President campaign. This isn't an ordinary case of stacking the committee. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) What you are talking about, WB is the very definition of original research. You can't go poring through government records, reported campaign contributions and courtroom testimony to draw your own conclusion. That's not how Wikipedia works. If such accusations have made against Obama in a verifiable, reliable third-party source than let's discuss those references here. But, this being a WP:BLP keep in mind how high the bar is set. Blogs and editorials aren't good enough. --Loonymonkey (talk) 17:02, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I concur with what Loonymonkey just said. If you are telling people to go look up government records, then you are proposing original research. If you have reliable sources, let's see them. But they must be acceptable according to Wikipedia's rules for WP:BLPs. Gamaliel (talk) 17:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- That's not what I've done here. Evelyn Pringle did the research and published it on three different websites, and I will allow others to decide which one is most reliable. I'm not Evelyn Pringle. I've just gone to what are probably the same sources she used, employing the same Nexis search engine that she probably used, to confirm that she is a reliable source; and I'm inviting any of you who might also have Nexis (such as SCJ) to confirm for yourselves that she is a reliable source. WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- So which one is most reliable? Countercurrents.org, Scoop.co.nz, or Opednews.com? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? WorkerBee74 (talk) 17:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- After examining the sites, my assessment is that none of them fit the criteria of WP:RS. You are welcome to seek other opinions here and at the reliable sources noticeboard, of course. Gamaliel (talk) 18:08, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- If this is a serious question, none of the above. The way this works is if it's a real story it will show up in mainstream reliable sources and then (and only then) do we even consider including it here. We don't come even remotely close to "breaking" stories here. Unless and until this is a mainstream story appearing in reliable sources there's 0% chance we'll mention any part of it here (including the supporting "facts" with the intention of letting readers "draw their own conclusions"). You're quite welcome to bring this up again if it surfaces in the mainstream, but continuing to push for it now is starting to border on disruptive editing. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:16, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- None of these fit the definition of a reliable source. In fact blogs such as those are explicitly excluded as sources in a WP:BLP. Plese read WP:BLP#Reliable_sources. "Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article." Plus, as this is an extraordinary claim, the bar is even higher. As of now, WB74, you haven't even come close to meeting the standards for a reliable source with this claim so what's left to talk about? --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- And what does your Nexis search tell you about the facts she has presented? WorkerBee74 (talk) 18:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the point is not whether there are reliable sources for the "facts" Pringle is using, but reliable sources for the inferences that she's making from those facts. Presenting the "facts" here by themselves making only implicit accusations is no different from making explicit accusations. We're asking for reliable sources for the accusation whatever it might be. For example, your original edit carries an (implied) accusation of the form "Obama was part of a plot to give control of whatever board it was to Rezko et al.". Since there's no other way to read this particular juxtaposition of "facts" than as an accusation, you need a reliable source for the accusation (not just for the individual supporting "facts"). You've been pointed to this before, but please review WP:NPOV#Neutrality and verifiability. -- Rick Block (talk) 19:12, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- For an example of WP BLPs that use Evelyn Pringle articles from Scoop.co.nz as sources, please see James Gottstein. Other articles that use Evelyn Pringle articles as sources include Modafinil, BLP Richard Burr, BLP Dan Olmsted, Bjork-Shiley valve, TeenScreen and Biodefense and Pandemic Vaccine and Drug Development Act of 2005. She's had about 50 articles published according to Nexis, in two fields (A) medical technology and pharmacology, and (B) exposing corruption in government. In the latter area, she's clearly non-partisan, going after Republicans and Democrats with equal vigor. I don't understand why there's a problem. The source (Scoop.co.nz) and the writer (Pringle) are both being used as sources in other WP BLPs. WorkerBee74 (talk) 20:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
THE LEAD
All this talk and the Lead still doesn't read well. Does anyone else notice the time disparities? I'm on the Obama bandwagon and I certainly want to respect all the effort here. I will rework and post here before making any changes to the Lead (other than the one I did prior to considering the sensabilities of the many editors already involved). I have not made a thourough check of the history of the article since it is quite extensive.--Buster7 (talk) 04:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Obama VP
Who is/are the frontrunner(s) for Obama's vice president? THANKS, Smuckers (talk) 04:25, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- No one knows, and speculation wouldn't be appropriate to add to the article. Tvoz/talk 08:15, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a front-runner as there isn't any election process for VP. We'll know in a month, so let's wait until then.--Loonymonkey (talk) 17:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Refs too long
Hello, I put {{verylong}}
into the references section because it takes up half the page. Is there a way to make the list shorter, like a bubble. that would improve the article. Regards, Smuckers It has to be good 08:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I have reverted the recently added
{{verylong}}
tag because it is inappropriate. This article is very carefully referenced (but not over-referenced) because it is extremely popular, and so the references section is necessarily long; however, the overall length of the article (it's readable prose) is within the acceptable guidelines. I have restored the 3-column reflist to decrease the amount of scrolling required, although this will only work for browsers that support columns. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
Coulter April 2008 article - Obama
Coulter directly quotes Obama in unflattering light and she is a notable commentator. Her observations and criticisms of Obama are notable enough to mention in this article. [11]
Pierre.cardoone (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not a reliable source. Also, The Coultergeist is in "bonkersville", to use a term in her own article. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)