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== Get out the Zyclon B; here we go again. == |
== Get out the Zyclon B; here we go again. == |
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Elias. Let's just gas them all. lol jp but in all seriousness can we stop bickering over the stupid infobox? We still arguably speak an "Aramaic" infused with "Akkadian" which I like to and so many others as well refer to as Modern Assyrian. [[User: |
Elias. Let's just gas them all. lol jp but in all seriousness can we stop bickering over the stupid infobox? We still arguably speak an "Aramaic" infused with "Akkadian" which I like to and so many others as well refer to as Modern Assyrian. [[User:Sharru Kinnu III|Sharru Kinnu III]] 14:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC) |
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Redundancy: "Chaldean Assyrians/Nestorian Assyrians/Syriac Assyrians"
This is completely uncalled for. First of all Chaldeans is enough; the Assyrian is implied. Syriac and Assyrian are two terms essentially for the same thing though Assyrian may be disputed by some. "Nestorian" Assyrians is altogether incorrect. They are NOT Nestorian. I don't care if they were erroneously called that. When simplifying; they should be reffered to as Assyrian Orthodox or CE [Church of the East] Assyrians [as opposed to Syriac Orthodox] which does not imply Eastern or Oriental Orthodox rather as in the original Church of the East. Nestorian is derogetory. Chaldean is just as erroneous as Nestorian. Chaldean is the fault of the Catholic church and Nestorian is a misnomer from the West to divide Eastern Christians and label some as heretics. Assyrian was added to the title of Church of the East. I bet you did not know that originally the patriarch of the [Uniate] Catholics was called Patriarch of Assyria and only after some generations did it switch [along with the Church affiliations] and become reserved for the CE Assyrians. Originally the Patriarch of Babylon was the title reserved for the CE Assyrians. The majority reaffiliation with Rome wasn't complete until the 19th Century. Now even the CE may become a Uniate church like the Chaldean one and possibly reunite once again piecing together the split that began in the 16th century. Sharru Kinnu III 13:32, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- indeed. I do believe I see through this now. Proper English terminology is probably "Eastern Assyrians", "Western Assyrians" and "Chaldeans". What Elias is giving us is just textbook Assyrianism, which is one perspective of ethnic nationalism, which needless to say Wikipedia's voice shouldn't endorse. dab (𒁳) 14:54, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- So, what if I am actually right, and that the modern Chaldeans, are Assyrians? I mean, it's not like the article is sourced to an academic source, corroborating this. Oh yeah, blame Elias, the evil nationalist who wants to gas the Aramaeans and the Chaldeans. As always, the best thing dab can do, is to resort to ad hominem attacks. Lame. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:00 20 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- ffs, read this: nobody disputes they are Assyrians alright? They're still not commonly called "Chaldean Assyrians". If we were disputing they are Assyrians, we'd remove them from the "Assyrian people" category, wouldn't we? dab (𒁳) 16:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly there are feuds developing within the talk pages where just for the sake of arguement Wikipedians will continously dipsute something that isnt' being dipsuted. This goes for all sides. Cease arguing over nothing and making false claims based on selective reading. Sharru Kinnu III 16:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- We have a basic understanding so far as to whom the Modern Assyrians are. Syrian [Souryaya] in the Neo-Aramaic/Syriac languages [Soureth/Souryoyo] is whom all refer to themselves as in the native language of the Syriac Christian people similar to how the Germans refer to their country as Deutsche and their nation as Deutschland and in similarity to Greek opposite to Turk it may refer to their religion in correlation with the ethno-religious self-designating nature of the Near Eastern cultures. The disputes thereby lie mainly in exonyms in languages non-native to the Assyrians to which has also has revived internally the disputes. Aramaean historically has referred to the Aramaic-speaking peoples in a similar fashion to how Britons may also be called English akin to how Assyrians may be called Syriacs or even Aramaeans due to in part by their native language. Claiming descent by fulling claiming to be one of the ancients over the other is nonsensical due to the impossibility of confirming such claims either by DNA or other means. The overall concensus is that all these terms inlcuding Chaldean refer to the same people. Thru time however these different groups have somewhat evolved independantly of each other though not to the extent to be considered seperate people but rather sub-groups of the Syriac Christians that are divided by Christian denomination, dialectal differences in language, and geographical location specifically village of origin which may span several countries where the Assyrian empire and it's sister states and satelite states once stood ground. Sharru Kinnu III 17:12, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly there are feuds developing within the talk pages where just for the sake of arguement Wikipedians will continously dipsute something that isnt' being dipsuted. This goes for all sides. Cease arguing over nothing and making false claims based on selective reading. Sharru Kinnu III 16:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- ffs, read this: nobody disputes they are Assyrians alright? They're still not commonly called "Chaldean Assyrians". If we were disputing they are Assyrians, we'd remove them from the "Assyrian people" category, wouldn't we? dab (𒁳) 16:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- So, what if I am actually right, and that the modern Chaldeans, are Assyrians? I mean, it's not like the article is sourced to an academic source, corroborating this. Oh yeah, blame Elias, the evil nationalist who wants to gas the Aramaeans and the Chaldeans. As always, the best thing dab can do, is to resort to ad hominem attacks. Lame. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:00 20 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
ffs, read this: nobody disputes they are Assyrians alright? — Pseudo-Aramaeans and pseudo-Chaldeans do. They're still not commonly called "Chaldean Assyrians". — Then why did you move it to the Chaldean Christians title, because some self-proclaimed historian/professor begged for it? Oh yeah, the evil nationalist Elias' edits shouldn't be taken seriously. After all, Garzo doesn't want me to have influence here. If we were disputing they are Assyrians, we'd remove them from the "Assyrian people" category, wouldn't we? — That's probably what's going to happen too. EliasAlucard|Talk 19:30 20 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I do dispute that they are all "Assyrians", and many others with me. It is clear that there is a dispute over this name, just as there is a dispute over the name Aramaeans. The only name that is not disputed is Syrian or Syriac, which is a translation of the self-appelation Suryāye. Any other name is a violation of NPOV policy. The people have been called Syrians for centuries, in all Western languages. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 09:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Please provide academic sources for your assertions, or none of them will be taken seriously. And please, disregard home made unprofessional websites. And I hope you by now, understand that Syrian means Assyrian. And again, there is nothing NPOV about the title. Stop causing trouble Benne. — EliasAlucard|Talk 12:00 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I have provided you with many historical and academic sources. These are verifiable. Please read my last note above, and answer my questions about Strabo and Tatian using reliable sources, just as I did. And no, I don't believe Syrian means Assyrian, I think it's folk etymology. I don't say the title is NPOV, I say it's wrong to apply it to Syriacs who do not identify with the Neo-Assyrian nation. I don't deny your right to your own identity, but don't impose it on other Syriacs.
- And stop calling people who don't agree with your Assyrianist agenda, trouble makers. Comment on content, not on people. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 10:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Benne, you are ONLY here to cause trouble. You have your political Aramaeanist agenda which you cannot prove the least. I have provided you with many historical and academic sources. — No you haven't. Not one single academic source. All you've done is to link to home made websites. These are verifiable. — So verify them then, by using academic sources. If the home made websites you keep linking to (which have no credibility at all) were so historically accurate, they would have been included in academic studies. They are not. Too bad, eh? Please read my last note above, and answer my questions about Strabo and Tatian using reliable sources, just as I did. — You did not use reliable sources. You used home made websites. And no, I don't believe Syrian means Assyrian, I think it's folk etymology. — Yes, you are free to believe this. But your opinion is not academic by itself. There are a handful of academic scholars who believe otherwise. Their opinion is worth 1000 times more than yours. I don't say the title is NPOV, I say it's wrong to apply it to Syriacs who do not identify with the Neo-Assyrian nation. — They don't identify as Assyrians, because of liars like you, spreading lies, indoctrinating them, and confusing them, with home made websites. I don't deny your right to your own identity, but don't impose it on other Syriacs. — Not imposing anything on anyone. There are more Syriacs who identify as Assyrian, rather than "Aramaean". Benne, seriously, stop causing trouble. This really doesn't concern you if you are not an Assyrian (or Syriac, if you like). It's none of your business. You only want to split up the Assyrian people. You are not helping the "Aramaeans" by inculcating them with lies about our history. Again, I tell you, either bring academic sources supporting your Aramaeanist revisionist claims, or knock it off. — EliasAlucard|Talk 12:51 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- And stop calling people who don't agree with your Assyrianist agenda, trouble makers. Comment on content, not on people. --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 10:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- The website cites numerous sources, both historical as more recent ones, both Syriac and Western. And the link citing Strabo, is an online work of the Greek historian. You still have not answered my question. Also Tatian's works are found online. Prove me that he called himself an Assyrian.
- Also, there is Courtois, The Forgotten Genocide: Eastern Christians, The Last Arameans. Another, less recent example, is Prof. Dietrich Hermann Hegewisch, Die Aramäer oder Syrer; ein kleiner Beitrag zur allgemeinen Weltgeschichte.
- Concern the Syrian=Assyrian theory, perhaps only a handful of scholars believe otherwise. Have you provided more than a handful of scholars who support this theory?
All your sources are crap. Cite modern, respected scholars and academics (and preferably in English), or you don't have a case. Concern the Syrian=Assyrian theory, perhaps only a handful of scholars believe otherwise. Have you provided more than a handful of scholars who support this theory? — You really should look into this a little better: Çineköy Inscription. I've showed you the link one hundred times by now, yet you keep on ignoring it because your Aramaean glasses don't want to see it. Syria, apart from its extreme similarity with Assyria (and this is no coincidence, mind you), bears no resemblance whatsoever with Aram. And the link citing Strabo, is an online work of the Greek historian. — Yes, it's from an academic online source: [1][2] unlike Aramaeanist revisionist sites, which aren't the least academic. Never mind that one of the links is uploaded on YouTube, Richard Nelson Frye is a very respected academic scholar, and his opinion counts. Also Tatian's works are found online. — Yes, also from an academic source: [3] Prove me that he called himself an Assyrian. — This is the internet, we use online sources, but they should be academic, and preferably from scholars. Your Aramaeanist sites do not fulfil this requirement. As long as the history of the Syriac people is distorted by Assyrianist nonsense, I will continue to bring in different sources. I believe it's you who should knock it off with your nationalist crap. — Sorry, but this is not Assyrianism, it is simply citing serious academic scholars. By the way, I have to ask, why do you want to damage the Assyrian people with lies, splitting us up? Why is this so important to you? What motivates you to split us apart? What keeps you going on and on likes this, spreading lies? — EliasAlucard|Talk 13:42 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- For the self-identification Aramaeans, I have given you Sébastien de Courtois, researcher at the École pratique des hautes études, John Joseph. Sources don't need to be in English, science is not bound by the Anglophone world ...
- You keep on evading the question. Check out Strabo's Geography. Parpola simply states that Tatian identified himself as an Assyrian, without providing a citation. How scholarly is that? I cite that he writes "I was born in the land of the Assyrians. Does that, or the fact that an Assyriologist says so, make him an Assyrian? --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 12:32, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- All right, you have now fully convinced me; Tatian was an Aramaye nationalist. All jokes aside, as for John Joseph, he is an Aramaeanist and he ignores a lot of important facts, just to make it look like we are "Aramaeans". For instance, he has stated his conspiracy theory that it was the Britons who brainwashed the Suraya/Suryoyo people with Assyrian nationalism. Well, he's full of shit. For instance:
Michael the Great in the 12th century reports on a 9th century dispute between Greek and Syriac sects, and has the Jacobites answer derogatory comments of their Greek opponents to the effect:
That even if their name is "Syrian", they are originally 'Assyrians' "and they have had many honorable kings ... Syria is in the west of Euphrates, and its inhabitants who are talking our Aramaic language, and who are so-called 'Syrians', are only a part of the 'all', while the other part which was in the east of Euphrates, going to Persia, had many kings from Assyria and Babylon and Urhay. ... Assyrians, who were called 'Syrians' by the Greeks, were also the same Assyrians, I mean 'Assyrians' from 'Assure' who built the city of Nineveh.History of Mikhael The Great Chabot Edition p. 748, 750, quoted after Addai Scher, Hestorie De La Chaldee Et De "Assyrie"
When Horatio Southgate visited the Syrian Orthodox communities of Turkey in 1843 he reported that its followers were calling themselves Suryoye Othoroye:
I began to make inquiries for the Syrians. The people informed me that there were about one hundred families of them in the town of Kharpout, and a village inhabited by them on the plain. I observed that the Armenians did not know them under the name which I used, Syriani; but called them Assouri, which struck me the more at the moment from its resemblance to our English name Assyrians, from whom they claim their origin, being sons, as they say, of Assour who 'out of the land of Shinar went forth, and build Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, and Resin between Nineveh and Calah.Horatio Southgate, "Narrative of a Visit to the Syrian Church", 1844 p. 80
That said, John Joseph, the Aramaeanist pseudo-academic, as far as his credibility goes, is in ruins. So give me another one. science is not bound by the Anglophone world — Simo Parpola is not an Anglophone, he's from Finland. Robert Rollinger, is from the Netherlands (if I'm not mistaken). And Richard Nelson Frye is Swedish. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:42 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
numbers again
- East Syriac 170,000-300,000 (85,000 in Iraq)[4]
- Syriac Orthodox 100,000-300,000(USA: 80,000, Germany 50,000)[5]
- Syriac Catholic 100,000[6]
- Chaldean 300,000 (240,000 in Iraq)[7]
total: 670,000-1,100,000
- Middle East: 2.5 million
- Europe: 93,000, North Armerica 300,000, former SU 64,000, Australia+NZ 33,000 other 150,000
total: 3.3 million[8]
it follows that we have no idea how many there are. Anything between 0.7 and 3.3 million is possible. dab (𒁳) 15:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly, thats why a moderate estimate of 2 million sounds pretty reasonable. Chaldean 15:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I doubt adherents.com is more reliable than CIA. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:50 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
did you even look at the CIA factbook? they have
- for Iraq[9]: "Christian or other 3%" (that's 820,000 "Christian or other")
- Syria[10]: Christian (various denominations) 10% (that's 1.9 million Christians. only a minority of these are Assyrian)
- Ethnic groups: "Kurds, Armenians, and other 9.7%", that's 1.8 million "Kurds, Armenians, and others, including Assyrians"
very reliable, I must say. Assuming 190,000 Armenians and "0.9 to 2.8 million" Kurds in Syria, we get an upper limit of about 500,000 Assyrians in Syria, and an upper limit of 800,000 Assyrians in Iraq, but these numbers are not in the CIA factbook. If we accept this, we get an upper limit of maybe 1.5 million in the Middle East (not 2.5 million), and consequently an upper limit of 2.3 million worldwide. From all this, I estimate 1-2 million is a reasonable estimate. dab (𒁳) 16:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dab your not even taking into consideration the Iraqi refugees in Syria. 700,000, with half if not the majority of them being Christian. Look, I believe in if their is a recent census, then that should be used (As it is with the US, Canada, Australia, etc), but if one is not available, then moderate estimates should be used. Chaldean 16:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dab, how old is that adherents.com ref? You have to tak into consideration, that the war in Iraq has decimated the Assyrian population a lot; many have been killed and fled the country. We can't use sources from pre-21th century. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:16 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- did you even bother to look at the links? they give many independent estimates, each listed with its date. If you have better sources, quote them, but don't revert to "CIA" numbers that don't even exist. As for Iraqi refugees in Syria, you are right, per Refugees_of_Iraq#Christians, we should expect some 100,000 Assyrians to shift from the Iraqi to the Syrian headcount. The overall number will be unaffected by this. excess deaths due to the war are calculated at around 2.5%, and thus clearly below the level of accuracy we can aim at here. --dab (𒁳) 16:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Dab, how old is that adherents.com ref? You have to tak into consideration, that the war in Iraq has decimated the Assyrian population a lot; many have been killed and fled the country. We can't use sources from pre-21th century. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:16 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
No offense but between the ultranationalist Elias and the anti-Assyrianist Benne is moderation between two different extremes...
There is middle ground. What I stated before is that all these terms are correct however the internationally recognized name of all these people is Assyrian regardless of what Aramaeanists declare. An Aramaean is an Aramaic-speaker. Just as modern Assyrians aren't ancient Assyrians because NO ANCIENT PEOPLE EXIST TODAY! GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEADS!!! WE MAY BE DESCENDED FROM THE ANCIENT ASSYRIANS OR ARAMAEANS BUT WE ARE THEIR MODERN DESCENDANTS NOT THE ANCIENTS, THEY ARE LONG GONE JUST AS THE ANCIENT GREEKS OR ANY OTHER ANCIENT RACE. WE ARE CALLED ASSYRIANS BY THE UN, AND THE IRAQI GOVERNMENT. NO COUNTRY OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZES THE TERM ARAMAEAN AS AN ETHNICITY BECAUSE IT IS SYNONYMOUS WITH THE SAME PEOPLE THAT CLAIM ALL THESE GROUPS ARE DIFFERENT AND THEY ARE ONE OR THE OTHER WHEN THERE IS NO INDISPUTABLE EVIDENCE POINTING ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. The British are also called English or Anglo-Saxon for Christs sakes as an example of people having multiple designations. The US uses Assyrians/Chaldeans/Syriacs. Iraq uses Chaldo-Assyrian. WTF? These terms are all acceptable. Aramaean being used once again by our people is not a problem. The problem lies between Assyrian/Aramaean/Chaldean fanatatiscm which is repulsive. All these names should be cherished for the history that goes with them. None of these names should be denounced or placed above another. The fact of the matter is that we are called ASSYRIANS officially. Wikipedia WILL NOT change this. Sharru Kinnu III 16:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- spot on. it's not the multiple designations as such that are a problem, but the entrenched fanaticism on both sides. dab (𒁳) 16:38, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- You don't seem to understand, Sharru Kinnu 3. I am not denying that the ancient Chaldeans and the ancient Aramaeans, are our forefathers. Regardless, the ancient Assyrians are our forefathers as well, and we have, for 2000 years now, identified as Suraya, or Suryoyo (depending on the dialect). We have recently began identifying as Aramaya and Kaldaya. The Aramaean faction, is of course, needless to say, a joke, because they still use Suryoyo more than they use Aramaya; they only claim descent from the ancient Aramaeans, and there is nothing on their side to prove this assertion, except of course, the holy infallible Syriac Orthodox Church. It's the same story with the Chaldean faction. Either way, we are the exact same people, and at the time, there is no need to split us up. We have major political issues in the homeland, and no one in the homeland cares deeply about some Aramaean identity. This is the time when we Assyrians, need to unite, and work together, for a better future. Call it nationalism or fanaticism if you will, or whatever. We have no time to hate each other, when we are being wiped out in the Middle East. Regardless of if we'll get an Assyrian state (I don't think we will), we must stick together. We will not be able to stick together, under 50 different identities. And since we have identified as Suraya/Suryoyo, and since there is archaeological evidence (like the Cinekoy inscription supporting the "disputed and false theory" (according to Benne) that Suraya/Suryoyo comes from Assuraya, that means we are Assyrians, and that it is time we act as Assyrians. United we stand, divided we fall. I would personally like all ethnic Assyrians to cooperate in difficult times like these, not fight over outdated self-designations. As for Benne, this is really none of his business and he should just stop disuniting us with his crappy sites. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:05 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Politics doesn't matter as long as we all accept we are one people. Our name doesn't make our people. Our people give us our name. Sharru Kinnu III 17:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- We're never going to accept that we are one people, as long as people like Benne and Megalommatis are going to try and separate us with their divide and rule mentality simply because they have their political agenda. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:14 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Megalomotis' theories are not accepted by any prominent scholars. The only group or organization that cites his work is Aramnahrin.org which is completely discredited by citing a lunatic ultra-Kemalist Turk that denies a Christian genocide even took place in Turkey or that Kurds are an actual ethnic group. He is a radical to the Nth degree. Sharru Kinnu III 17:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, our impartial, unbiased, objective, and neutral editor, Benne, would swallow everything Megalommatis says about the "Aramaean nation and its spiritual genocide". Please, knock this lame crap off. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:28 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Megalomotis' theories are not accepted by any prominent scholars. The only group or organization that cites his work is Aramnahrin.org which is completely discredited by citing a lunatic ultra-Kemalist Turk that denies a Christian genocide even took place in Turkey or that Kurds are an actual ethnic group. He is a radical to the Nth degree. Sharru Kinnu III 17:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- We're never going to accept that we are one people, as long as people like Benne and Megalommatis are going to try and separate us with their divide and rule mentality simply because they have their political agenda. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:14 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Politics doesn't matter as long as we all accept we are one people. Our name doesn't make our people. Our people give us our name. Sharru Kinnu III 17:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- You don't seem to understand, Sharru Kinnu 3. I am not denying that the ancient Chaldeans and the ancient Aramaeans, are our forefathers. Regardless, the ancient Assyrians are our forefathers as well, and we have, for 2000 years now, identified as Suraya, or Suryoyo (depending on the dialect). We have recently began identifying as Aramaya and Kaldaya. The Aramaean faction, is of course, needless to say, a joke, because they still use Suryoyo more than they use Aramaya; they only claim descent from the ancient Aramaeans, and there is nothing on their side to prove this assertion, except of course, the holy infallible Syriac Orthodox Church. It's the same story with the Chaldean faction. Either way, we are the exact same people, and at the time, there is no need to split us up. We have major political issues in the homeland, and no one in the homeland cares deeply about some Aramaean identity. This is the time when we Assyrians, need to unite, and work together, for a better future. Call it nationalism or fanaticism if you will, or whatever. We have no time to hate each other, when we are being wiped out in the Middle East. Regardless of if we'll get an Assyrian state (I don't think we will), we must stick together. We will not be able to stick together, under 50 different identities. And since we have identified as Suraya/Suryoyo, and since there is archaeological evidence (like the Cinekoy inscription supporting the "disputed and false theory" (according to Benne) that Suraya/Suryoyo comes from Assuraya, that means we are Assyrians, and that it is time we act as Assyrians. United we stand, divided we fall. I would personally like all ethnic Assyrians to cooperate in difficult times like these, not fight over outdated self-designations. As for Benne, this is really none of his business and he should just stop disuniting us with his crappy sites. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:05 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Childish bickering
Please compose yourselves as adults and speak in a non-argumentative manner. Sharru Kinnu III 16:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not singling anyone out. I'd say we've all been guilty of this at one point. Sharru Kinnu III 16:41, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
From Assyria to Syria
The former Assyrian territories outside of Assyria propper were Canaan and Aram. Canaan and Aram aka the Lowlands and Highlands became collectively known as Syria up until the fall of the Ottoman empire. In fact some Syrian parties refer to the area as Greater Syria and some even include Iraq and Kuwait which if you look at the map is basically all the territory of ancient Assyria outside of Egypt though including the Sinai. Aramaic gradually replaced Akkadian becoming lingua franca of the region until the Arab conquest and even withstood Hellenic rule for some time. Everyone that settled or were already in that area weren't all the same people though gradually over time many things could have happened including cultural assimilation/diffusion and possibly even mass migration and certainly genocide... What I'm trying to say is that Syria may have been derived from Assyria though it did refer to the former territories outside of Assyria propper and many people lived in died in those regions. Assyria and Babylon were multi-ethnic states as were most empires. This trend of claiming to be a master race is quite indeed RACIST. No one knows what they're anscestors really did 100 years ago let alone 1000-10000 years ago. How many bastard children are there in this world that don't know their fathers? Did you know that outside of the city states when the ancient Babylonians/Assyrians would conquer a city-state they would usually masacre the men and have children with their wives. They would have families in both the conquered lands and in their home towns. Sharru Kinnu III 16:56, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Ever heard the expressions p'salkhineh gildukh or m'paltina enoukh? That's how the emperial rein dealt with dissedency. Sharru Kinnu III 17:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not saying we are racially pure Assyrians. Of course we aren't. But I would bet we are a lot more of Assyrian ancestry than Aramaean or Chaldean ancestry. This trend of claiming to be a master race is quite indeed RACIST. — No one said anything about master race. Leave that to the Aryans. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:10 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I know your motives mean well but the fact of the matter is that not everyone identifies with one name and ultimately a compromise has to be reached that all these names are designated for the same people though we need one official title and 3, 4, and maybe even 5 supporting titles to go with it are fine. The reason I personally feel that Assyrian is appropriate is due to the fact that it was our most expansive empire [and also due to the fact that most of our people inhabit what was Assyria propper] though it wasn't our last indegenous empire [Babylonia under the Chaldean Dynasty was the last] and ironically was destroyed by the Medes and Chaldeans and ultimately our last indegenous empire fell to the Medes and Persians due to our own infighting and distrust between sister states and cultures [Babylon and Assyria]. Watch from Babylon to Baghdad: Kings of Iraq. It's a great history channel presentation. Our internal disputes were on a much more massive and brutal scale. This infighting about names is a lot better than us beseigin each other's city states for selfish reasons. Sharru Kinnu III 17:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- As long as Assyrian is the official title for "Aramaeans", "Chaldeans", and "Syriacs", I really don't care if they call themselves something else, just so long as they accept that they are Assyrians, because that is what they are. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:26 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah I got you. I don't like how some people hate one name or another. I mean Assyrian is well known throughout the world and using these lesser known names isn't really helpful though you have to understand human nature is imperfect and people are more emotionally attatched to something and tend to be irrational and less scientific thereby letting stubborness set in. People don't think on a macro scale for the most part. They think on a micro scale. Organize, Unite, and Prosper should be the new motto for this new generation of our people. We need to be like the Jews. They lived in Diaspora for Millenia. Now look at them; sitting on top of the world. They should be a model for our people. We need to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah by following their model. Maybe the Copts will follow suit too. haha of course I'm speaking allegorically. Sharru Kinnu III 17:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I mean Assyrian is well known throughout the world and using these lesser known names isn't really helpful — Exactly. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. As for the Isaiah prophecy, ain't gonna happen as long as you have dumbass Assyrians having a God's holy chosen people syndrome just because they speak Aramaic and want to be Aramaeans, and incessantly keep whining about "Aramaic is our sacred language" crap. Unbelievable, how pathetic that is. The Jews survived in the diaspora because they all identified as Jews. Either way though, I believe a nuclear war is going to break out soon between Iran/Israel/USA/Russia etcetera, and that there won't be anything left of Assyria. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:56 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- You have a gloomy outlook on existance. haha but you're not alone. I don't think anything that devestating will happen. This is another Cold War-like era. Sharru Kinnu III 18:47, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah I got you. I don't like how some people hate one name or another. I mean Assyrian is well known throughout the world and using these lesser known names isn't really helpful though you have to understand human nature is imperfect and people are more emotionally attatched to something and tend to be irrational and less scientific thereby letting stubborness set in. People don't think on a macro scale for the most part. They think on a micro scale. Organize, Unite, and Prosper should be the new motto for this new generation of our people. We need to be like the Jews. They lived in Diaspora for Millenia. Now look at them; sitting on top of the world. They should be a model for our people. We need to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah by following their model. Maybe the Copts will follow suit too. haha of course I'm speaking allegorically. Sharru Kinnu III 17:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- As long as Assyrian is the official title for "Aramaeans", "Chaldeans", and "Syriacs", I really don't care if they call themselves something else, just so long as they accept that they are Assyrians, because that is what they are. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:26 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I know your motives mean well but the fact of the matter is that not everyone identifies with one name and ultimately a compromise has to be reached that all these names are designated for the same people though we need one official title and 3, 4, and maybe even 5 supporting titles to go with it are fine. The reason I personally feel that Assyrian is appropriate is due to the fact that it was our most expansive empire [and also due to the fact that most of our people inhabit what was Assyria propper] though it wasn't our last indegenous empire [Babylonia under the Chaldean Dynasty was the last] and ironically was destroyed by the Medes and Chaldeans and ultimately our last indegenous empire fell to the Medes and Persians due to our own infighting and distrust between sister states and cultures [Babylon and Assyria]. Watch from Babylon to Baghdad: Kings of Iraq. It's a great history channel presentation. Our internal disputes were on a much more massive and brutal scale. This infighting about names is a lot better than us beseigin each other's city states for selfish reasons. Sharru Kinnu III 17:19, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Not saying we are racially pure Assyrians. Of course we aren't. But I would bet we are a lot more of Assyrian ancestry than Aramaean or Chaldean ancestry. This trend of claiming to be a master race is quite indeed RACIST. — No one said anything about master race. Leave that to the Aryans. — EliasAlucard|Talk 19:10 21 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
New DNA tests
[11] An interesting one to say the least. Chaldean 13:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- How new is it, and what exactly does it say? And what group was it conducted on? — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:04 22 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
this is an ongoing project of "Family Tree DNA - Genealogy by Genetics, Ltd.", not a scientific study, and no results have been published. I am sure there must be better references. dab (𒁳) 13:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Elias why don't you email them. Dab, some results are shown. Their isn't much study done on us, so any study should be at least looked apon. I don't really understand what the results are saying, but perhaps they might have written a report on their findings. Chaldean 13:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- there results may be useful for studies, in the future. So far, it appears, they have tested 27 people and dumped the raw results online. This will need much more work before we have anything to cite. dab (𒁳) 13:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Correction, they tested 39 so far, and that is a larger number then it seems since Assyrians are small in population (were not talking about a population of 50 million here.) Chaldean 13:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. So, what are you suggesting, Chaldean? — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:14 23 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Well their is an email address in the page. Perhaps we can contact them and ask them about their findings. Chaldean 15:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- All right then, I'll drop them a line. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:33 23 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I have a great fantasy about that. This is completely off-topic. What if they recently discovered the remains of Sargon the Great and it turned out after I participated in a study that I was directly descended of him. Then the Iraqi government collapses and I step in as the descendant of Iraq's greatest leader and fix everything. To top it all off Jesus returns and tells me great job and all ends well. lol not likely but I'm bored to death right now at work. Sharru Kinnu III 17:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sharru you'll have my application to be your chief minister 2morrow. Oh yeah, spare some of those Median concubines for me too, k?Tourskin 02:34, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have a great fantasy about that. This is completely off-topic. What if they recently discovered the remains of Sargon the Great and it turned out after I participated in a study that I was directly descended of him. Then the Iraqi government collapses and I step in as the descendant of Iraq's greatest leader and fix everything. To top it all off Jesus returns and tells me great job and all ends well. lol not likely but I'm bored to death right now at work. Sharru Kinnu III 17:56, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- All right then, I'll drop them a line. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:33 23 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Well their is an email address in the page. Perhaps we can contact them and ask them about their findings. Chaldean 15:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- Good point. So, what are you suggesting, Chaldean? — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:14 23 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Correction, they tested 39 so far, and that is a larger number then it seems since Assyrians are small in population (were not talking about a population of 50 million here.) Chaldean 13:13, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
- there results may be useful for studies, in the future. So far, it appears, they have tested 27 people and dumped the raw results online. This will need much more work before we have anything to cite. dab (𒁳) 13:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
Population statistics
Some of them are inaccurate. Are there any better sources available, like, official sources from the governments? — EliasAlucard|Talk 12:40 24 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- we could try the www.cia.gov site?Tourskin 07:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sure, do you have anything available? — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:25 29 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Syrian Orthodox = Assyrian Orthodox
Just some pictures of the Syriac Orthodox Church and how it's trying to get rid of its Assyrian roots. The Hebrew text still says Ashuri though. Should we include this in the Assyrian naming dispute? Oh and by the way, what does Benne have to say about this? I mean, why would these "Aramaeans" call their Church Assyrian? — EliasAlucard|Talk 02:39 26 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Who knows who put that sign up? It seems very old, it might have been the English (who happened to have invented Assyrianism). Did you notice that in Arabic, it says سريان (Syriac), not آشوري (Assyrian)?
- More interestingly: do you see the flags waving on the second picture? Looks like the Aramaean flag to me ... --Benne ['bɛnə] (talk) 11:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Syrian Orthodox Church, put up this sign. That was before the radical Aramaeanist ideology began to spread like the disease it is. The Britons did not invent "Assyrianism". That is of course a lie from Aramaeanist fanatics. Yes, today, the Aramaeanist movement has infected some parts of the Syrian Orthodox Church in the Middle East as well. Though it's not as much as in Europe. Benne, why are you spreading lies about Britons? You shouldn't be disingenuous like that. Syrian and Assyrian are used as synonyms in that picture. Oh and by the way, in Hebrew, it still reads Ashuri. Your conspiracy theories of Britons inventing this and that are taken directly from aramnahrin.org — EliasAlucard|Talk 14:57 26 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
the second image would be nice as an illustration of the naming dispute article. However, the image appears to originate from {{somewebsite}}. Unless we can source that photograph properly, it should be deleted. --dab (𒁳) 08:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- The second image is not from some website. — EliasAlucard|Talk 11:14 27 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
Assyrian <---> Syrian Chart
[12] Dab, in your honest opinion, what is wrong with that chart? It is as you can see, well referenced.[13] And with the pictures above in mind, you can see the Syrian Orthodox Church, as the Assyrian Orthodox Church. Here, you can read about the first Assyrian Church in America, during the 1890's. Oh and guess under what name? Assyrian Orthodox Church. And with the two pictures above, you can clearly see that this Aramaean fanaticism began in the early 1970's. Believe me, Chaldean and I are telling you the truth; unlike Benne, we are not into historical revisionism. There is nothing wrong with the picture. We have always identified as Assyrians, until now, recently, some Assyrians, have become anti-Assyrians, and have embraced "Aramaeanism". So please tell me Dab, why do you object to this picture? — EliasAlucard|Talk 21:52 27 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Dab, any comments? — EliasAlucard|Talk 09:52 28 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Dab, if you refuse to discuss this, perhaps you shouldn't revert the image? — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:25 29 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
are you serious? you want to present your snapshot of a street sign as a "reference" for your chart? Your chart is tendentious, and graphically flawed anyway. Use Mediawiki's "timeline" feature for things like this. dab (𒁳) 12:37, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- Mediawiki does not do the job. This is the only proper way to show the link of how Assyria became Syria and back to Assyria throughout history. And its referenced numerous times thank you very much, so as of right now you dont have any reason to remove it. Chaldean 13:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- I cant stand people editing without discussion. This guy thinks he owns the article and comes every once in a while and completly changes the article. He aperantly does not want to work with others but wants it to be his own personal project. I'm done with this. Chaldean 13:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- I know, clearly, there are some WP:OWN issues. — EliasAlucard|Talk 02:30 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I cant stand people editing without discussion. This guy thinks he owns the article and comes every once in a while and completly changes the article. He aperantly does not want to work with others but wants it to be his own personal project. I'm done with this. Chaldean 13:56, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Assyrian Cuisine and Culture
Once again I would like to avert attention to the other articles. You know history is meaningless without culture. Someone do something please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.250.58 (talk • contribs)
Assyrian people picture
Hopefully this will rdivert some of our energy to a less useful controversial cause no such thing as arameanists only assyrians. Whats happened with the Assyrian people pic for the info box? The votes for the number of people used is at a tie. How great. Well? This needs to be resolved.Tourskin 07:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, the current one is not good. — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:25 29 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I've grown quite sick with this revisionist Aramaean movement. I'd like some real numbers as to how many people actually identify with that misnomer. I am not a God damn Highlander. I am an Assyrian. I refuse to be an Assyrian Hillbilly. That was Aramaya means. Fuck that. You call yourselves hillbillies, that's fine. I'm an Assyrian. That's like George Bush stating he's not American but he's Appalacian. WTF? It may be true but for Christ's sake enough deviation from identifying by our most prestigious roots to that of second class citizens [scribes and servants]. I just don't understand why one would wish to identify with dominated nomads. They were dominated by Assyrians, Babylonians, and Persians with never an empire of their own. Sharru Kinnu III 12:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Aramaean faction is clearly exaggerated on Wikipedia by Benne. Yes, they exist, but they are not representative for all Assyrians. All Assyrians in the Syrian Orthodox Church, even the Aramaye fanatics, identify as Suryoyo (which means Assyrian), and most members of the Syrian Orthodox Church don't really give a shit about "Aramaeans". The Arameanism movement began in the 1970's, and before that, no one had heard much of Arameans in the Middle East for hundreds of centuries. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:07 29 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly, some of these quasi-historians are rewriting history how they see fit in line with their twisted perception and likely devious intentions. I don't even feel comfortable with the term 'Assyrian Neo-Aramaic.' It should be referred to as either 'Modern Syriac' or 'Modern Assyrian' which in no way would imply Akkadian simply by 'Modern' Being placed in front of it. Like you mention the term Aramaean was not used for centuries before this revisionist movement. Aturaya on the other hand along with Suraya has been used for ages. Sharru Kinnu III 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, strictly speaking, it's arguable if it is Aramaic we speak. Sure, it is a dialect of Aramaic, but let's face it, it's not intelligible with ancient Aramaic, and a lot of it is mixed with Akkadian words as well. As for the revisionists, as I've said so many times before, they shouldn't be taken seriously. I read on a Swedish forum recently some Suryoyo Oromoyo fanatics, again, talking about how Jesus, allegedly, had Aramaean blood. Come on? This is getting ridiculous. It reminds me of Positive Christianity and how they made Jesus into some Aryan fighter taking on the Jews. It's the same stupidity repeated again, only this time, Assyrians are getting infected with this stupid revisionism crap. I can see it clearly now: Aryan -> Aramaean. So anyway, what are we going to do about the Assyrian people picture? Tourskin, what is your main complaint about the one we have now? — EliasAlucard|Talk 00:00 30 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Honestly, some of these quasi-historians are rewriting history how they see fit in line with their twisted perception and likely devious intentions. I don't even feel comfortable with the term 'Assyrian Neo-Aramaic.' It should be referred to as either 'Modern Syriac' or 'Modern Assyrian' which in no way would imply Akkadian simply by 'Modern' Being placed in front of it. Like you mention the term Aramaean was not used for centuries before this revisionist movement. Aturaya on the other hand along with Suraya has been used for ages. Sharru Kinnu III 19:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Aramaean faction is clearly exaggerated on Wikipedia by Benne. Yes, they exist, but they are not representative for all Assyrians. All Assyrians in the Syrian Orthodox Church, even the Aramaye fanatics, identify as Suryoyo (which means Assyrian), and most members of the Syrian Orthodox Church don't really give a shit about "Aramaeans". The Arameanism movement began in the 1970's, and before that, no one had heard much of Arameans in the Middle East for hundreds of centuries. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:07 29 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- I've grown quite sick with this revisionist Aramaean movement. I'd like some real numbers as to how many people actually identify with that misnomer. I am not a God damn Highlander. I am an Assyrian. I refuse to be an Assyrian Hillbilly. That was Aramaya means. Fuck that. You call yourselves hillbillies, that's fine. I'm an Assyrian. That's like George Bush stating he's not American but he's Appalacian. WTF? It may be true but for Christ's sake enough deviation from identifying by our most prestigious roots to that of second class citizens [scribes and servants]. I just don't understand why one would wish to identify with dominated nomads. They were dominated by Assyrians, Babylonians, and Persians with never an empire of their own. Sharru Kinnu III 12:56, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Ok so I take it that I should not have made that joke at teh top? Now that we've got all the shit out of our system, can we go back to the pictures? The problem is that it looks like us four usual contributors (Me, Elias, Chaldean and Sharru) have tied it cos its an even number. So someone has to defect and sell their vote to either 4 or 8 pictures. And then back to deciding what Arameanist troll son of a gun Assyrians should appear.Tourskin 07:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, back to the pictures.
What's wrong with the one I added? I think it should be 8. — EliasAlucard|Talk 13:47 30 Aug, 2007 (UTC)- 8 is insane. Our most important people are as follows: Sargon of Akkad, Hammurabi, Nebuchudnezar, and Agha Petros. Sharru Kinnu III 18:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- lol, why all military leaders though? We need more recent examples. This article is about modern Assyrians. One Assyrian king is enough in the header picture. — EliasAlucard|Talk 21:05 31 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- Assyria was always dictated by military leaders. Those that deviated from that were the reason for the demise of our nation into this passivist version of Christianity we followed until our demise. Sharru Kinnu III 19:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Are you implying that you're against Christianity? Christianity isn't the problem. We've been stateless ever since the Assyrian empire fell. And that was before Christianity. Anyway, this article shouldn't focus too much on old Assyrian kings etcetera. I'll make crop some pictures of Assyrians later, need to get some stuff fixed first. We can decide later which picture we'll use. — EliasAlucard|Talk 00:57 01 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- No I'm clearly stating I'm against pacifism. I as an Assyrian leader we become militant to fulfill the prophecy in Isaiah 19 and as Saudi Arabia has their creed on the flag ours would be Luke 11:32 and not because I believe in that literally but to win this fight you have to beat them at their own game and we all know how flawed the Qur'an really is. I like the Church of the East's version of Christianity. It was the basis of what later became the bastardized version of heretic Christianity called Arianism that later devolved to Islam. Sharru Kinnu III 00:59, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- Are you implying that you're against Christianity? Christianity isn't the problem. We've been stateless ever since the Assyrian empire fell. And that was before Christianity. Anyway, this article shouldn't focus too much on old Assyrian kings etcetera. I'll make crop some pictures of Assyrians later, need to get some stuff fixed first. We can decide later which picture we'll use. — EliasAlucard|Talk 00:57 01 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Assyria was always dictated by military leaders. Those that deviated from that were the reason for the demise of our nation into this passivist version of Christianity we followed until our demise. Sharru Kinnu III 19:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- lol, why all military leaders though? We need more recent examples. This article is about modern Assyrians. One Assyrian king is enough in the header picture. — EliasAlucard|Talk 21:05 31 Aug, 2007 (UTC)
- 8 is insane. Our most important people are as follows: Sargon of Akkad, Hammurabi, Nebuchudnezar, and Agha Petros. Sharru Kinnu III 18:49, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
It is not reasonable to have more then one ancient figure in the picture. I think 8 is a possibility - like Russian people. Chaldean 01:03, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- You know that honestly doesn't look bad. Sharru Kinnu III 01:18, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- DUDES!! If we don't add Linda george, we wont get many...hits, u could say. Besides,it will prove we r not gay nor ugly, no offence to gay / ugly people12.105.242.43 07:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- lol, anyway, I'll get down to work on some pictures soon. Don't do anything until then :) — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:14 01 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Linda George is old and plus we have half of Ramona Amiri on our side. She's as sexy as sin. Sharru Kinnu III 00:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think half Assyrians should be representing Assyrians in the picture. Chaldean 02:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with that wholly. What difference is it if they're only half yet identify as Assyrian. She identifies as an Assyrian therefor she is an Assyrian and if Andre Aghassi did even being only 1/4 Assyrian than I would put him down too. I definitely think Ramona should be on the list as a testament to the beauty of Assyrian women. She's so pretty I'd marry the monitor with her picture on the display. lol Sharru Kinnu III 21:51, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think half Assyrians should be representing Assyrians in the picture. Chaldean 02:05, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- Linda George is old and plus we have half of Ramona Amiri on our side. She's as sexy as sin. Sharru Kinnu III 00:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- lol, anyway, I'll get down to work on some pictures soon. Don't do anything until then :) — EliasAlucard|Talk 10:14 01 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- DUDES!! If we don't add Linda george, we wont get many...hits, u could say. Besides,it will prove we r not gay nor ugly, no offence to gay / ugly people12.105.242.43 07:32, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
So why not put a pic on the display and marry it? Lol or even better, lets just have four beautiful Assyrian woman as the picture!!!Tourskin 22:20, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just because someone identifies as Assyrian, it doesn't necessarily mean that he/she is an Assyrian. Ever heard the concept of race? — EliasAlucard|Talk 01:33 03 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- She identifies as an Assyrian therefor she is an Assyrian - she also identify herself as an Persian. Ramona should be on the list as a testament to the beauty of Assyrian women. - how do you know her "beauty" isn't from her Persian side instead of her Assyrian side? The whole point of the picture is to show how that ethnic group looks like - by putting up half or 1/4 of that ethnic group in subject is basically misleading. Chaldean 02:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Wow! Everyday this movement moves one step closer to Nazism and concepts of racial purification. This is where I begin to distance myself yet again from Sourayeh. Chizlee min toukhmeikhoun. Move forward please our nation is not the Fourth Reich. Sharru Kinnu III 16:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- And in response to Elias; the concept of race is quackery and a game of divisive politics that helps no one; but the maintenance of the status quo. Sharru Kinnu III 16:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Wow! Everyday this movement moves one step closer to Nazism and concepts of racial purification. This is where I begin to distance myself yet again from Sourayeh. Chizlee min toukhmeikhoun. Move forward please our nation is not the Fourth Reich. Sharru Kinnu III 16:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- She identifies as an Assyrian therefor she is an Assyrian - she also identify herself as an Persian. Ramona should be on the list as a testament to the beauty of Assyrian women. - how do you know her "beauty" isn't from her Persian side instead of her Assyrian side? The whole point of the picture is to show how that ethnic group looks like - by putting up half or 1/4 of that ethnic group in subject is basically misleading. Chaldean 02:15, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race#Current_views_across_disciplines
Scientist argue it both ways that it's valid or invalid according to what it's being used for by which how it's being argued here is akin to Nazi Racial Purification not valid scientific research. Sharru Kinnu III 17:00, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please knock it off with your pathetic Godwhining. If a guy from Indo-China comes out of nowhere and says he's an Assyrian, he can not in anyone's right mind, be regarded as an Assyrian, unless of course, there actually is a majority of biological descent in him of Assyrian ancestors. What part of this, extremely logical explanation, don't you understand? No need to accuse us of being Nazis. That said, the Assyrian people picture(s) should feature, preferably, pure blooded Assyrians. Now of course, no Assyrian is racially pure. Claiming that, would be ridiculous. But including people in the picture, who have like, some grandfather who was Assyrian, and that's it, is what I would call, Assyrian supremacy; because we are neglecting his other non-Assyrian ancestors. By the way, Sharru, what do you know about Nazism anyway? — EliasAlucard|Talk 22:13 03 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Ramona Amiri actually identifies more with her Persian ancestry, as she was raised to be Persian, essentially. See this interview. So let's complete that vote on the WikiProject Assyria page, please. --Šarukinu 19:52, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Philosophically Primitive People
I think we should add this category because it accurately describes 95% of Sourayeh today. I put that on my life. Sharru Kinnu III 16:43, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Speak for yourself; I am ten times more philosophically advanced than you ever could be. — EliasAlucard|Talk 22:31 03 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't mention you by name but thanks for the childish answer. lol Sharru Kinnu III 01:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh by the way "Godwhining" doesn't apply to this conversation maybe you should read the whole article before applying you're illogic to this topic.
Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions directly addressing genocide, propaganda, or other mainstays of the Nazi regime.
- This is clearly propaganda; and racial purity is a mainstay of the Nazi Regime. You may know laws and established theories but that doesn't make you smarter. Einstein said it isn't about knowing everything but where to find the information. Sharru Kinnu III 01:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- In case you need a definition of propaganda: "Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist." Source: Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda And Persuasion, 4th edition, 2006.
- I don't know my own people. Trying to manipulate me into believing I'm confused in order to create a lack of confidence in my personal knowledge in order for me to agree that you're right so I can be indoctrinated as you and believe your beliefs is clearly propaganda. I don't know who indoctrinated you into this believer of Racial politics but I refuse to carry the disease and be a host organism for this deadly virus and I further refuse to pass it on to anyone else. Sharru Kinnu III 01:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Deadly virus"? You are unquestionably, indoctrinated. Let me tell you one thing about Assyrians: we are undeniably, racists. Not racists in the sense that we go and wipe out other populations based on their skin colour, but we are definitely racists in the sense that we preferably marry with our own people only. And considering our situation, no country, spread throughout the world as dwindling minorities, that's a good thing. — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:00 04 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know my own people. Trying to manipulate me into believing I'm confused in order to create a lack of confidence in my personal knowledge in order for me to agree that you're right so I can be indoctrinated as you and believe your beliefs is clearly propaganda. I don't know who indoctrinated you into this believer of Racial politics but I refuse to carry the disease and be a host organism for this deadly virus and I further refuse to pass it on to anyone else. Sharru Kinnu III 01:52, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Caught in Americana: Black vs White
This is one negative Anglo-American/European/Primitive concept that has been infused into our people. Get it out. What I mean is that we are not a racist people that divide people up based on their ethnicity. I mean hell we all have biases towards our own inner-circle that's just natural but our division was based on are they Sourayeh or not and if they wanted to be they could. If someone speaks Sourith and is a member of one of our churches they are our people. That's how it is weather you accept it or not. It's not up to you to validate weather someone is truly Souraya. And if you don't agree with that, that's fine. You are entitle to your beliefs. Not everyone accepts what you have to say. So weather or not you agree that someone that is only half or quarter Assyrian is truly representative of our people is your opinion not absolute fact. Sharru Kinnu III 17:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Do you know what biological descent means? I don't care what you say. If some guy from Japan says he's an Assyrian, he better make sure that he's capable of proving it, that at the very least, one of his parents are of Assyrian ancestry. Even if that was the case, I wouldn't regard him as an Assyrian. Does that make me an evil Nazi racist? Of course not. I'm just looking at it objectively. And you should as well. You have to understand, not everyone can claim to be Assyrian. Assyrian, is an ethnicity; Assyrians are a group of relatively homogeneous people, and we have a unique DNA profile that distinguishes us from all other people. This is one negative Anglo-American/European/Primitive concept that has been infused into our people. — Indo-Europeans have nothing to do with this. Get it out. — Why? What I mean is that we are not a racist people that divide people up based on their ethnicity. — You obviously don't know anything about your own people. We are just as much racists as any other group of people. In fact, anyone who says Germans, Americans, Africans, or whatever, aren't racists, is lying. All humans are racists, more or less anyway. It's just that there are some people who are less hypocritical about it. — EliasAlucard|Talk 22:29 03 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Sharru, I really don't know what your problem is but you need to stop accusing other users here of "Nazism". Please clean up your act. Chaldean 23:01, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I think I have had enough of this. Everybody , without a word of nazism or communism, please just type a number and then sign it. This number is eitehr 4 or 8 and is the number of people. If there is a tie, we'll do six; a two by three. Anyone disagree? Too bad, lets just do it, heres my vote:
- 4 people Tourskin 23:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
- Elias you really turn an argument against you even when its not. I'm not speaking of Racism as in prejudice against another race but in the sense that we don't group people as black and white in the manner that is done in the west. We group people in terms of religion and tongue not genetic predisposition. That is a contemporary phenomenon within our people due to Western influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharru Kinnu III (talk • contribs) 01:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Elias you really turn an argument against you even when its not. — That is because some people simply refuse to understand, or listen, because they are politically correct. Here's a good saying for you: Condemnant quod non intellegunt. I'm not speaking of Racism as in prejudice against another race but in the sense that we don't group people as black and white in the manner that is done in the west. — This has nothing to do with black people. However, for the record, they are Negroids, and we are Caucasoids. We group people in terms of religion and tongue not genetic predisposition. — Yes, we are ethnoreligious. That is not always a good thing, though it can be useful in the Middle East. Oh and, I do agree with Chaldean, you really should stop accusing others of Nazism. We are Assyrians. We can by default, not be Nazis, because the Nazi ideology, despises two things: Semitic peoples, and Christianity (which is regarded as Judaism 2.0 or something). And before you post something ignorant about "BUT HITLER WAS A CATHOLIC LOL", you know nothing about the Nazi ideology if that's what you think. So anyway, stop accusing us of Nazism simply because we want Assyrians in the header picture and not non-Assyrian members of our Churches. — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:10 04 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- He may have been born Catholic but he sure as shit didn't practice it. In fact he was believed to have practiced an occultist religion venerating ancient germanic pagan gods and some thought he downright went mad with syphilis and worshipped Satan. His niece/wife was a whore and banged all his guards and associates and passed on the love to him making him the mad man we all know and dispise. Sharru Kinnu III 14:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, Nazism as an ideology, puts a lot of emphasis on the Germanic peoples pre-Christian religions. Anyway, can we focus on the picture here? Thanks. — EliasAlucard|Talk 21:34 04 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- He may have been born Catholic but he sure as shit didn't practice it. In fact he was believed to have practiced an occultist religion venerating ancient germanic pagan gods and some thought he downright went mad with syphilis and worshipped Satan. His niece/wife was a whore and banged all his guards and associates and passed on the love to him making him the mad man we all know and dispise. Sharru Kinnu III 14:43, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Elias you really turn an argument against you even when its not. — That is because some people simply refuse to understand, or listen, because they are politically correct. Here's a good saying for you: Condemnant quod non intellegunt. I'm not speaking of Racism as in prejudice against another race but in the sense that we don't group people as black and white in the manner that is done in the west. — This has nothing to do with black people. However, for the record, they are Negroids, and we are Caucasoids. We group people in terms of religion and tongue not genetic predisposition. — Yes, we are ethnoreligious. That is not always a good thing, though it can be useful in the Middle East. Oh and, I do agree with Chaldean, you really should stop accusing others of Nazism. We are Assyrians. We can by default, not be Nazis, because the Nazi ideology, despises two things: Semitic peoples, and Christianity (which is regarded as Judaism 2.0 or something). And before you post something ignorant about "BUT HITLER WAS A CATHOLIC LOL", you know nothing about the Nazi ideology if that's what you think. So anyway, stop accusing us of Nazism simply because we want Assyrians in the header picture and not non-Assyrian members of our Churches. — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:10 04 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
Eight is Great
I say Eight people works for me as with the Russian people page. Sharru Kinnu III 01:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, 88 stands for Heil Hitler :P — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:25 04 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
I'm getting angry with dealing with this article.
I'm going back to cuisine. Our food has preserved our culture better than any of this political garbage. Sharru Kinnu III 02:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Godspeed. — EliasAlucard|Talk 07:25 04 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- OH GEES!!! I CAME BACK ONLY TO SEE THAT U KIDS COULDN'T STOP !!! Look, I said 4 people. Sharru said 8. Elias, what say u? Anyone else? Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Tourskin 23:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- I told you, 8. Hang on, I will do some work on the picture, putting it all together with excellent resize filters and everything. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:43 05 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I say 4. --Šarukinu 12:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- I told you, 8. Hang on, I will do some work on the picture, putting it all together with excellent resize filters and everything. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:43 05 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- OH GEES!!! I CAME BACK ONLY TO SEE THAT U KIDS COULDN'T STOP !!! Look, I said 4 people. Sharru said 8. Elias, what say u? Anyone else? Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Tourskin 23:05, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
Assyrian Cuisine and Syriac script
Can someone help with the names of the foods and if one has more pictures please upload them. I want to make it a featured article. Sharru Kinnu III 14:56, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- I'll help with some of the names in the Syriac script :) --Šarukinu 12:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
"identity"
- stop conflating genetics and "identity"
- stop conflating etymology and "identity"
- stop saying "Ancient Assyrians" twice in every sentence
Assyrian nationalism is a significant portion of Assyrian identity, but that doesn't mean our "identity" section may be written from a blatant Assyrian nationalist pov. --dab (𒁳) 13:55, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- Genetics is a very important part of our identity. Look, as an anti-nationalist, the concept of "human races" is a sinful word to you. But the modern Assyrians, are of the same Caucasoid race as the ancient Assyrians. Perhaps some biological differences have occurred the past 2600 years, but we are genetically more or less, the same, as the ancient Assyrians. — EliasAlucard|Talk 02:35 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
also, it is ridiculous to give 13 (!) independent footnotes to a statement "The Assyrians manifested a remarkable degree of linguistic, religious, and cultural continuity", incidentially without making clear where in this "wealth" of literature the claim can be found. This is simply spam. let's take have a look at "Ashurbanipal and the Fall of Assyria". here S. Smith is one of the few historians who, even though he expresses a certain ambivalence in his preliminary remarks, nevertheless affirms that the fall of the Assyrian empire did not automatically lead to its disappearance, but rather to the loss of its independence. That sounds rather different, doesn't it? It transpires that the "cultural continuity" is a claim disputed in scholarship, pure and simple. In our 13 references, the lady doth protest rather too much: an obvious case of cherry-picking. We can state the question is disputed, and quote one reference pro, and one against, and be done. What we have here is an obviously disingenious smoke-screen. --dab (𒁳) 14:05, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? — EliasAlucard|Talk 02:35 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I think he's possessed. Call an exorcist. He's losing grip of reality. Dude quite honestly shut up. We Assyrians will not have our history rewritten by our enemies. Bow down to the truth. We are who we are. Don't fear our reemergence into the forefront of contemporary history. We have lots to offer from our lessons learned in governance and the lack thereof... The Muslims WILL destroy you. So listen into our wisdom. Sharru Kinnu III 06:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sharru Kinnu III, what are you even doing on Wikipedia? Have you read what this project is about? It't not a message board for indulging assorted ethnic prides. quite honestly, bow to the project's policy or shut up. dab (𒁳) 10:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- What am I doing; making sure people like you don't pervert our history. That's my goal. I have contributed positively to every article I've worked on and this is a TALK page not an ARTICLE and I'm quite offended by your anti-nationalist sentiment just as I am by extreme nationalist sentiment. YOU can't change things because YOU don't agree with them. You can look up my edit history. I don't make radical changes to articles I don't agree with. You can quite honesty and should be banned for your ethnocentric view that you try to veil under the guise of Wikipedia policy. Sharru Kinnu III 13:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sharru Kinnu III, what are you even doing on Wikipedia? Have you read what this project is about? It't not a message board for indulging assorted ethnic prides. quite honestly, bow to the project's policy or shut up. dab (𒁳) 10:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"the chart"
do a proper timeline, alright? without the graphical tricks. If you must do a 4,000 year timeline, do it properly.
guys, your "chart" is a joke. It's an illustration of how the above timeline looks after being distorted in the mind of an Assyrian nationalist. Fix it or remove it. dab (𒁳) 10:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- This is very obvious to me, that your pathetic anti-Nationalism sentiments, are in way of your objectivity. You know, nationalists, aren't by definition, wrong in every case possible. Some times, a nationalist isn't bullshitting you. And by the way, don't take my word for it, listen to what the Assyriologists are saying. They are neither Assyrian nationalists, and they are neither biased, in their studies. So why do you have such huge issues with that chart? Do you actually believe that Suraya/Suroyo means Aramaya/Oromoyo and not Assurayu? What the hell? What kind of logic is this? — EliasAlucard|Talk 14:00 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
wow. anti-nationalist 'sentiment'. Such as drawing a timescale that is actually to scale? --dab (𒁳) 13:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Your scale is fine. It's just that it's not about the naming dispute. This naming dispute, has been going on for over 30 years in the Assyrian diaspora, it needs an illustrative picture that clears up the confusion. A timetable reflecting our Churches, is beside the point. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:56 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
infobox
give us a break Elias. Do you see "Old English (ancient) / English (modern)" / "Anglo-Saxon polytheism (ancient) / Anglicanism (modern)" at English people? No? How about you try asking yourself why not. dab (𒁳) 10:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why is it such a grave sin to list the old language we've spoken? As the source I cited says, we have spoken two languages in our history. Of course, according to a biased anti-nationlist like you, we have no biological connection with the ancient Assyrians whatsoever, but we who are a little more rational about this, and especially I, think it's very important that we list both Akkadian, and the modern dialect of Aramaic (Neo-Syriac) in the language list. Jew has all sorts of historic and no longer in use languages that Jews speak and have spoken. Why the hell is it such a fatal sin if we list Akkadian, especially considering that the modern Neo-Aramaic language is not pure Aramaic, but in fact, a hybrid of Akkadian and Aramaic? I think you should get your act together. — EliasAlucard|Talk 14:01 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- did I mention any "fatal sins"? If anything is a sin, it is your continued waste of people's time with your nationalist one-tack-mindedness. Anti-nationalist bias, huh? You might as well accuse me of rabid anti-bias bias, or pro-Wikipedia bias. And am I ever guilty of that. Look, the Jews have a tradition of Hebrew. It's their liturgical language, same as the Syriac language is that of the Syriacs. The Akkadian language, otoh, survived in no tradition whatsoever, and was reconstructed from archaeological finds. The Syriacs simply have nothing to do with it. --dab (𒁳) 13:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- The "fatal sin" remark, was needless to say, sarcasm meant to ridicule your obsession in cleansing this article from any connection possible to the ancient Assyrians. The Akkadian language, survived in both the Aramaic dialects we speak today (to some extent, of course). Did you even bother to read this? Don't be ignorant, check out that vocabulary list. If you think Syriac is some kind of pure Aramaic dialect, you are mistaken. And just like Hebrew was a completely extinct and dead language, it was reconstructed and taken up again by Jews. The only difference is that we haven't begun to speak Akkadian again, it could be because there's no Assyrian state as of right now. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:17 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I am not cleansing anything. The Syriacs descend from the population of the Assyrian empire. That's granted, and it is sufficient to state that once and be done. End of story. How about you widen your horizon a bit and instead of the stale hype surrounding those boring old imperialist Assyrians glow in nationalist pride that your ancestors were fluent in Proto-Nostratic? It's true too! Your own ancestors were real mesolithic hunter-gatherers who roamed these lands tens of millennia ago! --dab (𒁳) 13:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Dab, please don't waste my time with your trolling, all right? Yes, my ancestros have perhaps spoken Sumerian. That is beside the point. We identify as Assyrian, and that's what matters. Can you at the very least respect the sources I've cited? This is not about the Assyrian empire, it's about giving a detailed overview of the modern Assyrian people, and it is inevitable, that the ancient Assyrians be mentioned in this, and that's not because of some Assyrian nationalism, but because it's part of our history. I mean, what the hell, do you think we just popped up in the Middle East out of nowhere? — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:52 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- That's quite pathetic Dab. I think we have the intelligence to comprehend that we all have a common ancestor in mitochondrial Eve and what you're doing is just using rhetoric to try prove you are right by using one truism and using it to veil a body of lies. We are not stupid. No one will accept your radical views. It will be reverted once everyone realizes your true deceitful intentions. You can't change our history through Wikipedia. Sharru Kinnu III 13:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Dab, please don't waste my time with your trolling, all right? Yes, my ancestros have perhaps spoken Sumerian. That is beside the point. We identify as Assyrian, and that's what matters. Can you at the very least respect the sources I've cited? This is not about the Assyrian empire, it's about giving a detailed overview of the modern Assyrian people, and it is inevitable, that the ancient Assyrians be mentioned in this, and that's not because of some Assyrian nationalism, but because it's part of our history. I mean, what the hell, do you think we just popped up in the Middle East out of nowhere? — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:52 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I am not cleansing anything. The Syriacs descend from the population of the Assyrian empire. That's granted, and it is sufficient to state that once and be done. End of story. How about you widen your horizon a bit and instead of the stale hype surrounding those boring old imperialist Assyrians glow in nationalist pride that your ancestors were fluent in Proto-Nostratic? It's true too! Your own ancestors were real mesolithic hunter-gatherers who roamed these lands tens of millennia ago! --dab (𒁳) 13:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- The "fatal sin" remark, was needless to say, sarcasm meant to ridicule your obsession in cleansing this article from any connection possible to the ancient Assyrians. The Akkadian language, survived in both the Aramaic dialects we speak today (to some extent, of course). Did you even bother to read this? Don't be ignorant, check out that vocabulary list. If you think Syriac is some kind of pure Aramaic dialect, you are mistaken. And just like Hebrew was a completely extinct and dead language, it was reconstructed and taken up again by Jews. The only difference is that we haven't begun to speak Akkadian again, it could be because there's no Assyrian state as of right now. — EliasAlucard|Talk 15:17 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- did I mention any "fatal sins"? If anything is a sin, it is your continued waste of people's time with your nationalist one-tack-mindedness. Anti-nationalist bias, huh? You might as well accuse me of rabid anti-bias bias, or pro-Wikipedia bias. And am I ever guilty of that. Look, the Jews have a tradition of Hebrew. It's their liturgical language, same as the Syriac language is that of the Syriacs. The Akkadian language, otoh, survived in no tradition whatsoever, and was reconstructed from archaeological finds. The Syriacs simply have nothing to do with it. --dab (𒁳) 13:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry that I don't have more time to participate in this enlightening discussion, but I have to say I agree with Dbachmann about the chart--this article is about the modern Assyrians, and as far as I can tell they don't speak Babylonian. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:03, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to break it down to you, pal, but the Babylonians and the Assyrians spoke the same language.[14] A lot of it, has survived in the modern Assyrian language. And by the way, for your information, the Assyrians and the Babylonians, were the same people. I mean, why do you think we have Ishtar TV, named after a Babylonian goddess? — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:06 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- VERY IGNORANT COMMENT -Akhilleus. First of all Babylonians spoke Akkadian and the language we speak to day is arguably not ARAMAIC because of many reasons. For one we call it Soureth which means Syrian or Syriac which in our context implies Assyrian. Our language is infused with an Akkadian lexicon so just because you stated something completely wrong in agreement with Dab doesn't conclude this argument in his favor. Sharru Kinnu III 14:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- An another thing even within ancient Babylon and Assyria "Aramaic" displaced Akkadian. So yes we are their continuation in every aspect of the phrase. We are the continuity of the indigenous people of ancient Assyria otherwise known as Northern Iraq not present-day Babylonia but of Assyria therefore we call ourselves Assyrian. Do Native "Americans" accept the term universally. No, because they were there before the existance of America and just because they are popularly and in politically correctness termed that doesn't make it an absolute fact. and another thing, Wikipedia isn't a democracy. Facts have more clout than personal opinions. This is fact that we are Assyrian and the term is universally accepted throughout the United Nations. Sharru Kinnu III 14:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Akhilleus,[15] your opinion, is completely irrelevant. What you think is irrelevant. You are not a scholar. Here on Wikipedia, we go credible sources. This encyclopaedic article (and many others like it), claims that we have a linguistic evidence that supports our claim of being descendants of the ancient Assyrians. If this is not enough for you, I can give you a lot of other articles. You want to call that "uncivil"? Fine, but you are being unencyclopaedic by disregarding sources we are citing. — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:19 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the favorable evaluations of my intelligence, gentlemen, I'm quite aware of the historical connection between ancient Babylonian and neo-Aramaic. But guess what, we don't say in Italian people that the Italians' ancient language was Latin--at least not in the chart, it is in the body of the article, where it's appropriate. In a similar way, this article mentions in the "language" section that ancient Assyrians spoke Akkadian (Assyro-Babylonian) and talks about the relationship of neo-Aramaic languages to Akkadian. This dispute simply concerns what should be in the infobox--it has nothing to do with whether that information is cited or not, but whether that information should be in the infobox at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't even bring up your intelligence. But it's nice to know that you consider irrelevant opinions and IQ to be synonymous. In any case, the infobox issue, is obviously a matter of choice. Some articles, like for instance Jew, lists both ancient and modern languages spoken by Jews. What is the problem, and why can't we do that also, here in this article? Is there some sort of Wikipedia policy about infoboxes? And by the way, the chart, is very important. It is well cited, and you shouldn't just disregard it altogether. — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:28 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't a place where you can gather your friends and like-minded individual to rally for you in order to carry out your political aspirations. We are presenting our history in a completely neutral way and if we see something that isn't true. WE will point IT out because WE are the PEOPLE this article mentions so logically don't you think for one second that we would point out innacuracies as we are doing so in this very dialog. I understand that there is indoctrination in society where some may fall victim to popular disbeliefs and urban legends but when we have an actual and viable source quoted in which you simply refute for whatever inconceivable reason; then, you are not working within Wikipedia guidelines and it becomes even more evident that you are in violation of policy. Take the log out your eye before you try to take the sty out of mine. Don't project your wrongdoing on others to avoid responsibility for your own deceitful action. [Dab] Sharru Kinnu III 14:39, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't even bring up your intelligence. But it's nice to know that you consider irrelevant opinions and IQ to be synonymous. In any case, the infobox issue, is obviously a matter of choice. Some articles, like for instance Jew, lists both ancient and modern languages spoken by Jews. What is the problem, and why can't we do that also, here in this article? Is there some sort of Wikipedia policy about infoboxes? And by the way, the chart, is very important. It is well cited, and you shouldn't just disregard it altogether. — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:28 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the favorable evaluations of my intelligence, gentlemen, I'm quite aware of the historical connection between ancient Babylonian and neo-Aramaic. But guess what, we don't say in Italian people that the Italians' ancient language was Latin--at least not in the chart, it is in the body of the article, where it's appropriate. In a similar way, this article mentions in the "language" section that ancient Assyrians spoke Akkadian (Assyro-Babylonian) and talks about the relationship of neo-Aramaic languages to Akkadian. This dispute simply concerns what should be in the infobox--it has nothing to do with whether that information is cited or not, but whether that information should be in the infobox at all. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Akhilleus,[15] your opinion, is completely irrelevant. What you think is irrelevant. You are not a scholar. Here on Wikipedia, we go credible sources. This encyclopaedic article (and many others like it), claims that we have a linguistic evidence that supports our claim of being descendants of the ancient Assyrians. If this is not enough for you, I can give you a lot of other articles. You want to call that "uncivil"? Fine, but you are being unencyclopaedic by disregarding sources we are citing. — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:19 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- An another thing even within ancient Babylon and Assyria "Aramaic" displaced Akkadian. So yes we are their continuation in every aspect of the phrase. We are the continuity of the indigenous people of ancient Assyria otherwise known as Northern Iraq not present-day Babylonia but of Assyria therefore we call ourselves Assyrian. Do Native "Americans" accept the term universally. No, because they were there before the existance of America and just because they are popularly and in politically correctness termed that doesn't make it an absolute fact. and another thing, Wikipedia isn't a democracy. Facts have more clout than personal opinions. This is fact that we are Assyrian and the term is universally accepted throughout the United Nations. Sharru Kinnu III 14:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- VERY IGNORANT COMMENT -Akhilleus. First of all Babylonians spoke Akkadian and the language we speak to day is arguably not ARAMAIC because of many reasons. For one we call it Soureth which means Syrian or Syriac which in our context implies Assyrian. Our language is infused with an Akkadian lexicon so just because you stated something completely wrong in agreement with Dab doesn't conclude this argument in his favor. Sharru Kinnu III 14:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
"VERY IGNORANT COMMENT" sounded like a comment on my intelligence, was I mistaken? At any rate, I see things haven't changed much on this page since I last looked at it: comments that are about style are mistaken as politically-driven censorship, and there are huge WP:OWN problems. It's too bad; I'd really like to learn more about the modern Assyrians! --Akhilleus (talk) 14:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- It's too bad; I'd really like to learn more about the modern Assyrians! — How about actually allowing us to cite sources without being accused of Nazi-like nationalism issues by Dab every five seconds? You'd learn a lot more about us if you weren't deletionists but rather, inclusionists. — EliasAlucard|Talk 16:45 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with what you said Akhilleus. I wasn't commenting on your intelligence but on the very comment itself which was not correct and I pointed out what wasn't correct about it. You are learning about modern Assyrians. This is what we deal with on a daily basis even within our own people. Mass confusion of historical facts and basing life on urban legends is the norm within the non-intellectuals or everyday common folk. A superstitious and often Islamically-brainwashed lay people comprises the majority as I would like to point out is the case even within America being here most of my life is understanding that most people aren't fully logical and everyone has an irrational side and basing history on the irrational side is nonsensical because it has an established scientific method. Sharru Kinnu III 14:51, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't think ancient religion and language need to be in the infochart as well. We need to follow the guidelines followed by other ethnic pages. Chaldean 14:53, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yes and our most closely related group is Jewish and we will do as they do. Sharru Kinnu III 14:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think a time-line should chronicle our entire documented existance as Assyrians which would include the ancient chronology which would encompass our ancient relgion and language.
- As I stated this before, you can't compare us to the Jews because Jewish people isn't a core ethnicity, but a religious group as well. You compare Assyrian people with Greeks or Armenians. Chaldean 15:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Jews are an ethnic group, and they have their own religion (which ours is mostly based on). All Jews, are part of the same ethnic group. It's just that Jews aren't ethnically homogeneous any longer, as a result of having lived in a diaspora for a very long time. It will happen to us as well (if our people, survives assimilation; I don't think we will). The Jewish article is a very good example of how we should do. After all, we are in the same situation they were in. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:04 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- As I stated this before, you can't compare us to the Jews because Jewish people isn't a core ethnicity, but a religious group as well. You compare Assyrian people with Greeks or Armenians. Chaldean 15:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think a time-line should chronicle our entire documented existance as Assyrians which would include the ancient chronology which would encompass our ancient relgion and language.
- I don't think ancient religion and language need to be in the infochart as well. So, should we remove Syriac Christianity and Neo-Aramaic as well then? — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:07 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Last time I checked we still practice Syriac Christianity and Syriac is a dialect of Neo-Aramaic. Chaldean 15:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly. And last I checked, our history as a people, did not start with Neo-Aramaic and Syriac Christianity. The infobox is just a summary of the Language and Religion sections anyway. So it should include the minor details as well. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:13 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- The infobox is meant of updated information, not historical notes (that is what the article is for!). Why not put old population numbers for each country in the infobox as well? Chaldean 15:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- That's a bad parallel. Listing old languages, is not wrong. Listing old population statistics, is not easy to prove. I fail to see your correlation. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:30 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Another thing to call the religion Judaism is accepted but does not mean the religion started in Judea for the fact of the matter is that Abraham came from Mesopotamia and you need to understand that city-states were viewed as sovereign states and the concepts of empire were just beginning to emerge with allegiances of city-states forming policies and guidelines as to the rules of the game be it war or trade. The ancients had as much city-state pride as modern nations do and they would have eventually aligned with city-states of similar heritage and ultimately grasping the concept of Adam and Eve be it religious or scientific began to establish what we see to day as Globalism and the ultimate goal of fully uniting the world into one organized unit. The ancient religion of Abraham existed within Mesopotamian culture for God-knows-how-long and Jewish people until this day even the European ones have always been an ethno-religious group just like us. Even Arabs are a subset within the "Semitic" people that identify by religion and tribalism which is interpreted here as ethnicity or race. I think I went overboard in trying to prove my point but it all applies to the topic. lol Sharru Kinnu III 15:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- lol — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:30 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- Another thing to call the religion Judaism is accepted but does not mean the religion started in Judea for the fact of the matter is that Abraham came from Mesopotamia and you need to understand that city-states were viewed as sovereign states and the concepts of empire were just beginning to emerge with allegiances of city-states forming policies and guidelines as to the rules of the game be it war or trade. The ancients had as much city-state pride as modern nations do and they would have eventually aligned with city-states of similar heritage and ultimately grasping the concept of Adam and Eve be it religious or scientific began to establish what we see to day as Globalism and the ultimate goal of fully uniting the world into one organized unit. The ancient religion of Abraham existed within Mesopotamian culture for God-knows-how-long and Jewish people until this day even the European ones have always been an ethno-religious group just like us. Even Arabs are a subset within the "Semitic" people that identify by religion and tribalism which is interpreted here as ethnicity or race. I think I went overboard in trying to prove my point but it all applies to the topic. lol Sharru Kinnu III 15:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- That's a bad parallel. Listing old languages, is not wrong. Listing old population statistics, is not easy to prove. I fail to see your correlation. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:30 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- The infobox is meant of updated information, not historical notes (that is what the article is for!). Why not put old population numbers for each country in the infobox as well? Chaldean 15:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly. And last I checked, our history as a people, did not start with Neo-Aramaic and Syriac Christianity. The infobox is just a summary of the Language and Religion sections anyway. So it should include the minor details as well. — EliasAlucard|Talk 17:13 07 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
- What do you mean? Last time I checked we still practice Syriac Christianity and Syriac is a dialect of Neo-Aramaic. Chaldean 15:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Guys, this article is about the modern Assyrian people - not who we used to be, but who we currently are. The infobox, above all, should focus on the modern aspects of the Assyrians, not ancient details. The whole reason I created the History of the Assyrians article was so that we could deal with such issues there. With regards to the infobox, it could be potentially misleading to include a language which our people haven't spoken in over 2 000 years. To me, personally, it's not a huge deal - let's just try and minimize any potential confusion. --Šarukinu 19:33, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- The infobox is meant to be informative. How is it misleading, to include our old language? Do you know why there are Assyrians who think they are Aramaeans today? Because they don't know, that their ancestors spoke Akkadian, and they don't know, that their Neo-Aramaic dialect, is infused with Akkadian words. If anything, it's misleading to remove every connection with our ancestors in this article. You are only perpetuating confusion, by cutting the connections with our forefathers. — EliasAlucard|Talk 00:32 09 Sept, 2007 (UTC)
Get out the Zyclon B; here we go again.
Elias. Let's just gas them all. lol jp but in all seriousness can we stop bickering over the stupid infobox? We still arguably speak an "Aramaic" infused with "Akkadian" which I like to and so many others as well refer to as Modern Assyrian. Sharru Kinnu III 14:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC)