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== 'Free at the point of need for all Britons' == |
== 'Free at the point of need for all Britons' == |
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I think this is an innacurate phrase to describe the current NHS in England (though may be true for Scotland, Wales, and/or Northern Ireland). I am put off getting medications because I can't afford the prescription fee, or the £125 for having a tooth drilled, and glasses are also not free. The sentence uses the present tense, and is not expressly placed in a historical context. I do not believe the phrase 'free at the point of need' has a specific common contemporary use; 'free' to me just means without charge, 'point-of-need' I think is also generally interpreted literally. |
I think this is an innacurate phrase to describe the current NHS in England (though may be true for Scotland, Wales, and/or Northern Ireland). I am put off getting medications because I can't afford the prescription fee, or the £125 for having a tooth drilled, and glasses are also not free. The sentence uses the present tense, and is not expressly placed in a historical context. I do not believe the phrase 'free at the point of need' has a specific common contemporary use; 'free' to me just means without charge, 'point-of-need' I think is also generally interpreted literally. |
Revision as of 18:00, 11 November 2012
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David Bevan
I don't understand the reference to "David" Bevan. Is it an error, or was that his dad's name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.133.47.40 (talk • contribs) 22:49, 4 March 2004
- David Bevan was his Dad's name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.204.242 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 12 May 2007
Comment by Marx
The article claims Bevan quoted a comment made by Marx in 1885. If somebody would like to explain how a corpse can stress the benefits of war, now would be the time to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.254.252 (talk • contribs) 15:19, 6 June 2005
Picture
Do we have a picture? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.237.111 (talk • contribs) 22:27, 10 December 2005
- If you are interested, there is a Statue of him by cardiff castle, if you think that will do ill try and nab a photo of it next time im about with my camera —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.11.248.217 (talk • contribs) 22:44, 16 March 2006
Bevan and Mosley
As I recall, Mosley attempted to form an independent political group in the aftermath of his resignation. It is true that Bevan was associated with that, but this group failed. When Mosley started to be influenced by Mussolini, Bevan clearly smelled a rat, and severed all contacts with him. Bevan was never a fascist. I will do some digging in Foot's biography. When I get a citation, I will change the entry. --Train guard 17:54, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- Whoever changed the Mosley bit did a very poor job. Bevan never joined the New Party, nor did he consider it. This whole article is pretty poor. I've just finished a dissertation on Bevan and will change this article fully in the Summer when my exams are over. In the meantime I'd advise anyone researching Bevan to double check any "fact" they find on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.204.242 (talk • contribs) 01:07, 12 May 2007
Two identical articles
I don't understand why there are two identical articles, one called Nye and one called Aneurin Rathfelder 22:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
In Place of Fear
Just to note that In Place of Fear is a book and not a collection of essays. Bevan frequently refers to it as a book, to other "chapters" and so forth. Andysoh 09:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
'Free at the point of need for all Britons'
I think this is an innacurate phrase to describe the current NHS in England (though may be true for Scotland, Wales, and/or Northern Ireland). I am put off getting medications because I can't afford the prescription fee, or the £125 for having a tooth drilled, and glasses are also not free. The sentence uses the present tense, and is not expressly placed in a historical context. I do not believe the phrase 'free at the point of need' has a specific common contemporary use; 'free' to me just means without charge, 'point-of-need' I think is also generally interpreted literally.
According to this prescription charges were introduced in 1952, and prompted the resignation of Aneurin Bevan. So, perhaps it's fair to say the implementation of the NHS failed his ideal.
I am new to editing wikipedia and the BRM cycle (though I've read over the tutorial and other pages today), please advise me of any mistakes I've made in attempting to resolve this disagreement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald (talk • contribs) 12:48, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
- The point is that if you turn up at a hospital or a Doctor you will be treated. Dentistry is a more complex topic, and so are opticians. Yes in England there is a token charge for prescribed medicines, but none if its in hospital and whole categories of people are exempt anyway. Within the context of the article and the time its a reasonable statement. Including his sense of betrayal at the prescriptions is relevant but "failing his ideal" is an opinion, you would have to find an authoritative source ----Snowded TALK 13:13, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
A sizeable amount of healthcare in Briton, these days, is not free. The NHS page does not use the phrase 'free at the point-of-need' in an unqualified way, even though it is a great and succinct phrase, because it's not accurate. You mention the context of the time; the sentence implies this is specifically how the NHS works today. It would be fine if it was past tense. Otherwise it needs to be qualified, perhaps prefixed with 'designed to', 'mainly' or 'generally'.
I could probably compromise and say, as the main NHS page says, '[services] the vast majority of which are free at the point of use'. Although since 85% of Britains have to pay for prescriptions, I think it erroneous to say that the 'vast' majority of healthcare is free. The vast majority of cost is paid for, however I believe the majority of patients are outpatients and (in England) have to pay something.
'Free' should not be used in place of 'heavily subsidised'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald (talk • contribs) 14:03, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Additionally: I know from personal experience, if you turn up at A&E you will always be treated. But if, as you say, you turn up to a doctors, you may not be. If you are in receiept of income based JSA, disability benefit, or a similar benefit then you will be, otherwise you must find the money. If you have no money, you can't get your prescription. It's not free. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tobius Greenwald (talk • contribs) 14:21, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
There's a need for historical perspective here. When it was set up it was a huge thing, it was free, it was a great blessing for millions of Britons. From what I remember there were some minor charges but I don't remember for what. This can be ascertained from reliable sources. In the past years there have been changes in the care offered by the NHS and attempts to privatize it. When it was set up it was essentially free, and the establishment of the NHS needs to be thought of in comparison to what existed at the time. So maybe a distinction is needed between the original purpose, mandate, and conditions of the NHS and what is happening now? Bevan fought very hard so far as I know to have a free NHS. Nathan43 (talk) 14:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, I didn't read everything above. But I think on an entry about Aneurin Bevan the situation of the NHS as it was in his lifetime should be emphasized. It was an amazing success and he was vilified for it. It has been the envy of the world until recently. Nathan43 (talk) 14:50, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree. The NHS was a huge thing when it was set up, a blessing, and continues to be a (for the most part) a blessing. The magnitude of setting up the NHS should be emphasised in the introduction. Just, as you say, emphasising the historical perspective if the word 'free' is to be used. Perhaps the end of the intro could be changed from:
His most famous accomplishment came when, as Minister of Health in the post-war Attlee government, he spearheaded the establishment of the National Health Service, which provides medical care free at point-of-need to all Britons.
to:
His most famous accomplishment came when, as Minister of Health in the post-war Attlee government, he spearheaded the establishment of the National Health Service, in order to provide medical care free at the point-of-need to all Britons.
Any objections, improvements or alternatives? Tobius Greenwald (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
- I don't see any value in that change I'm afraid. In the context of the time (which is what the article is about) its correct. Your personal experiences in the present day are not relevant. Please also learn to use outdenting in your comments on the talk page ----Snowded TALK 01:15, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Use of the phrase 'which provides' strongly suggests the statement is not about history, but relates to the ongoing state of the NHS. Therefore knowledge of how the NHS is today is relevant, including my personal experiences.Tobius Greenwald (talk) 11:27, 11 November 2012 (UTC)