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:::::: {{Citation |last=Schmitt |first=Oliver Jens |author= Oliver Jens Schmitt|authorlink= |coauthors= |firstn=,lastn=,authorn= |author-separator= |editor= |editorn= |editorn-last= |editorn-first= |editor-link= |editorn-link= |others= |title=Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479) |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=eKKS3u7iPWcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Oliver+Jens+Schmitt%22&hl=en&ei=F_RFTd2ZMse08QOh5fSuCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false |archiveurl= |archivedate= |format= |accessdate= |edition= |series= |volume= |date= |origyear= |year=2001 |month= |publisher=R. Oldenbourg Verlag GmbH München |location= München|language= German |isbn=3-486-56569--9 |oclc= |doi= |doi_inactivedate= |bibcode= |id= |page= |pages= |nopp= |at= |chapter= |chapterurl= |quote= Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević und Skanderbeg erschienen mit starken heeren vor den venezianischen Stadten (Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević and Skanderbeg appeared with a strong army before the Venetian cities) |laysummary= |laydate= |separator= |postscript= |lastauthoramp= |ref= }}--[[User:Antidiskriminator|Antidiskriminator]] ([[User talk:Antidiskriminator|talk]]) 21:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC) |
:::::: {{Citation |last=Schmitt |first=Oliver Jens |author= Oliver Jens Schmitt|authorlink= |coauthors= |firstn=,lastn=,authorn= |author-separator= |editor= |editorn= |editorn-last= |editorn-first= |editor-link= |editorn-link= |others= |title=Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479) |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=eKKS3u7iPWcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:%22Oliver+Jens+Schmitt%22&hl=en&ei=F_RFTd2ZMse08QOh5fSuCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false |archiveurl= |archivedate= |format= |accessdate= |edition= |series= |volume= |date= |origyear= |year=2001 |month= |publisher=R. Oldenbourg Verlag GmbH München |location= München|language= German |isbn=3-486-56569--9 |oclc= |doi= |doi_inactivedate= |bibcode= |id= |page= |pages= |nopp= |at= |chapter= |chapterurl= |quote= Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević und Skanderbeg erschienen mit starken heeren vor den venezianischen Stadten (Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević and Skanderbeg appeared with a strong army before the Venetian cities) |laysummary= |laydate= |separator= |postscript= |lastauthoramp= |ref= }}--[[User:Antidiskriminator|Antidiskriminator]] ([[User talk:Antidiskriminator|talk]]) 21:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Please read what I said.--[[User:Gaius Claudius Nero|Gaius Claudius Nero]] ([[User talk:Gaius Claudius Nero|talk]]) 22:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC) |
:::::::Please read what I said.--[[User:Gaius Claudius Nero|Gaius Claudius Nero]] ([[User talk:Gaius Claudius Nero|talk]]) 22:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::: [http://books.google.com/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA559&dq=Crnojevi%C4%87+Brankovi%C4%87+i+skanderbeg+venice+bar&hl=en&ei=6WfBTcj-OYb3sga4ydzDBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century ... By John Van Antwerp Fine] support what Schmitt wrote about participation of Branković and Crnojević in attacks on [[Venetian Albania|Albanian]]. I think it is wrong and against WP:NPOV to present information about Ottoman Empire's participation in this war and <s>hide</s> not to present information about participation of [[Serbian Despotate]] in this war. --[[User:Antidiskriminator|Antidiskriminator]] ([[User talk:Antidiskriminator|talk]]) 14:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC) |
Revision as of 14:59, 4 May 2011
Albanian–Venetian War has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
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Military history: Balkan / European / Italian / Medieval GA‑class | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Albania GA‑class Mid‑importance | ||||||||||
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Proposal for the assassination of Scanderbeg
AFAIK Venice Senate convinced Mustafa Pasha of attacking Scanderbeg in Diber and gave him 10000 ducats. Also a lifetime pension of 100 ducats was offered by the Senate to the person who could assassinate Scanderbeg. I think this should be added too Aigest (talk) 20:36, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- Albania defiant Authors Jan Myrdal, Gun Kessle Edition illustrated Publisher Monthly Review Press, 1976 ISBN 085345356X, 9780853453567 page 48
- George Castroiti Scanderbeg (1405-1468) Author Fan Stylian Noli Publisher International Universities Press, 1947 page 40 Aigest (talk) 14:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agree--Vinie007 06:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
- Agree as well.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Absurd, contradictory and misleading informations
Albanian Victory
Text in the lede says: "The war was the result of a dispute between the Republic and the Dukagjini family over possession of the Dagnum fortress. Skanderbeg, ally of the Dukagjini family, moved against several Venetian held towns along the Albanian coastline, in order to pressure the Venetians into restoring Dagnum. In response, the Republic sent a local force to relieve the besieged fortress of Dagnum, and urged the Ottoman Empire to send an expeditionary force into Albania. The Ottomans were already besieging the fortress of Svetigrad, stretching Skanderbeg's efforts thin."
Text of the article clearly says: Skanderbeg did not succeeded to capture Dagnum (which was the main reason for him to start the war) and additionally he lost Balsha and Svetigrad and lot of his men in the war. I think that information about result of the war which is described as "Albanian victory" in the infobox, is absurd, contradictory and misleading and claim that "all lands on the Albanian side of the Drin that are relinquished to the League of Lezhë" is misleading and vague.
I propose to change description of the result of the war to match the text of the article and include failure of Skanderbeg to capture Dagnum from Venetian Empire, loss of Balsha and loss of Svetigrad.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:29, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
- I'll just take out the Albanian victory part which a previous editor added a while back. The infobox is meant only as an aid to the article and I don't see why it's necessary to include information already in the article. The infobox is already quite lengthy.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:13, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
- I find the info boxes very useful, if properly created. I think that the peace treaty is not the result of the war because the war is ended with the peace treaty. The result of the war section in the info box should show who won the war. Skanderbeg declared war on Venice in order to capture Dagnum. He not only failed to capture Dagnum, but he additionally lost Balsha fortress to Venice and extremely important Svetigrad town to Ottoman Empire that joined Venice and even remained in war with Skanderbeg even after peace treaty with Venice was signed. I think that this is school example of lost war and that should be clearly stated in the appropriate section of the infobox. Besides results section, the section about territorial changes still does not mention important loss of Balsha fortress to Venice and much more important loss of Svetigrad to Ottoman Empire. Also, I am sorry but I really do not understand what "lands on the Albanian side of the Drin river are relinquished to the League of Lezhë" really means.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, even the most skeptical historians (Schmitt p. 90.) say Skanderbeg won this war. Skanderbeg strangled Venice's resources to the point where their only option was negotiation (details of the agreements are in the article). Even though Skanderbeg lost Dagnum, he gained what he really wanted: recognition from Venice as a political force. Carl von Clausewitz said that war was a means to achieve political ends and this is what Skanderbeg did. Had he wanted to, he could have taken all of the Venetian cities on the Albanian coastline (since they were on the point of surrender), but his brilliant wisdom -- something which neutrality prohibits me from explicitly stating in this article -- told him that he did not need these cities; it would have only incurred Venice's wrath which was supported by its never-ending wealth. Furthermore, he would need to maintain them, something which his treasury could not allow. And losing Svetigrad was a sacrifice to maintain Kruja, a much more important fortress. If his men hadn't made a stand at Svetigrad, Murad would have marched right into Kruja which was not ready for battle. Thermopylae had a similar strategic purpose and the Greeks won the war against Persia. The Turks, however, kept pouring into Albania, but Skanderbeg was able to hold out for twenty more years. Anyways, this was not an integral part of the Venetian War and the Ottoman Empire never openly made an alliance with Venice (which is why I split the two belligerents in the infobox). Schmitt, despite his many questions, maintains that Skanderbeg was a military genius of the highest caliber. He questions Skanderbeg's heroism, but he never questions his ability to lead men. Therefore, saying that Skanderbeg lost this war because he lost some fortresses would mean that we are ignoring the greater strategic perspective which is of much higher importance. Skanderbeg got what he wanted and had Venetia Albania on its knees. It's safe to say that the Turks won the siege of Svetigrad, however.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for such well written explanation. I will think about it and reply to it soon.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- @Gaius Claudius Nero: While I am thinking about your comment, can you please provide inline citation of Schmitt stating that Skanderbeg won the war against Venetian Empire in period 1447 - 1448? (Of course I believe you, but I am very interested in exact wording.)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- Mundimi i Venedikut doli se kishte qenë i kotë, ngaqë sulltan Murati II ishte nisur në marshim ... Roughly translates to The defeat of Venice came to little avail since Murad had begun his march ... Schmitt is saying even though Venice had been defeated, its results could do little to stop the Siege of Svetigrad (1448). (By the way, Google translates it wrong: mundim in this sense means to defeat not effort as Google translates it.) Nevertheless, the context of this article deals with the Venetian War which Schmitt recounts as a Venetian defeat.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for providing citation. War with Venice lasted till October 4, 1448, five months after Murad II had begun his march and started the Siege of Svetigrad (1448) on May 14. Venice could not be defeated five months before war was ended. Are you absolutelly sure that it is the whole war against Venice that Schmitt described as defeat? Will you please double check the context of Schmitt sentence and if he was describing the whole war or only one battle?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:01, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- He says it right after he discusses Venetian efforts to make peace with Skanderbeg.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- First Venetian efforts were in December 1447, at the beggining of the war "Venetians sent an ambassador to Skanderbeg offering him 1,000 ducats to lay aside all claims to Dagnum in return that the Albanians would protect the country and keep the roads free from violence. Skanderbeg, however, refused to accept the offer and hostilities continued". Second Venetian efforts to make peace with Skanderbeg were in June 1448, four months before war was over. "On 27 June 1448 Venice sent Andrea Venier, then provveditore at the Scutari's Rozafa Castle, to attempt to persuade the Ottomans to invade Albania. After, Venice also sent Venier to meet with Skanderbeg in order to convince him to break off hostilities". Final peace efforts were made when peace treaty was signed, on October 4, 1448, two months after Murat II captured Svetigrad. According to your citation, Schmitt is talking about Venetian defeat which happened before Siege of Svetigrad. In that case he could not be referring to "Albanian victory" in this war, because the war was far from being over. Am I right?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:41, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- By that time, the war was practically over. Venice was in no position to become an aggressor and they were searching for agreements with other nations. These are the acts of a militarily defeated nation. Sun Tzu says: "Too frequent rewards signify that the enemy is at the end of his resources..." and "When envoys are sent with compliments in their mouths, it is a sign that the enemy wishes for a truce." This was a military victory for the Albanian side. As I said earlier, the Albanians could have gone on and taken all of the Venetian city-ports but they did not due to Skanderbeg's restraint. Besides, the dates given Svetigrad-siege-article are wrong, I think, and I am in the process of checking them. Anyways, the date of signing a peace treaty cannot mean much. The Treaty of Paris (1783) was signed two years after the Siege of Yorktown.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- Let us focus on Schmitt for the moment, and I will reply to your explanation about victory later.
- According to the text of the article, the war was far from over in June. After June there was very important battle of Drini on July 23, loss of Svetigrad at the end of july and also there was Battle of Oranik (1448) on August 14. Only after Oranik Skanderbeg led his victorious armies to siege Venetian city ports. Am I right when I say that Schmitt could not refer to the whole war that lasted till October when describing Venetian defeat in June? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- By that time, the war was practically over. Venice was in no position to become an aggressor and they were searching for agreements with other nations. These are the acts of a militarily defeated nation. Sun Tzu says: "Too frequent rewards signify that the enemy is at the end of his resources..." and "When envoys are sent with compliments in their mouths, it is a sign that the enemy wishes for a truce." This was a military victory for the Albanian side. As I said earlier, the Albanians could have gone on and taken all of the Venetian city-ports but they did not due to Skanderbeg's restraint. Besides, the dates given Svetigrad-siege-article are wrong, I think, and I am in the process of checking them. Anyways, the date of signing a peace treaty cannot mean much. The Treaty of Paris (1783) was signed two years after the Siege of Yorktown.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- First Venetian efforts were in December 1447, at the beggining of the war "Venetians sent an ambassador to Skanderbeg offering him 1,000 ducats to lay aside all claims to Dagnum in return that the Albanians would protect the country and keep the roads free from violence. Skanderbeg, however, refused to accept the offer and hostilities continued". Second Venetian efforts to make peace with Skanderbeg were in June 1448, four months before war was over. "On 27 June 1448 Venice sent Andrea Venier, then provveditore at the Scutari's Rozafa Castle, to attempt to persuade the Ottomans to invade Albania. After, Venice also sent Venier to meet with Skanderbeg in order to convince him to break off hostilities". Final peace efforts were made when peace treaty was signed, on October 4, 1448, two months after Murat II captured Svetigrad. According to your citation, Schmitt is talking about Venetian defeat which happened before Siege of Svetigrad. In that case he could not be referring to "Albanian victory" in this war, because the war was far from being over. Am I right?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:41, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- He says it right after he discusses Venetian efforts to make peace with Skanderbeg.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for providing citation. War with Venice lasted till October 4, 1448, five months after Murad II had begun his march and started the Siege of Svetigrad (1448) on May 14. Venice could not be defeated five months before war was ended. Are you absolutelly sure that it is the whole war against Venice that Schmitt described as defeat? Will you please double check the context of Schmitt sentence and if he was describing the whole war or only one battle?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:01, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- Mundimi i Venedikut doli se kishte qenë i kotë, ngaqë sulltan Murati II ishte nisur në marshim ... Roughly translates to The defeat of Venice came to little avail since Murad had begun his march ... Schmitt is saying even though Venice had been defeated, its results could do little to stop the Siege of Svetigrad (1448). (By the way, Google translates it wrong: mundim in this sense means to defeat not effort as Google translates it.) Nevertheless, the context of this article deals with the Venetian War which Schmitt recounts as a Venetian defeat.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:48, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- @Gaius Claudius Nero: While I am thinking about your comment, can you please provide inline citation of Schmitt stating that Skanderbeg won the war against Venetian Empire in period 1447 - 1448? (Of course I believe you, but I am very interested in exact wording.)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:27, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for such well written explanation. I will think about it and reply to it soon.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:31, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, even the most skeptical historians (Schmitt p. 90.) say Skanderbeg won this war. Skanderbeg strangled Venice's resources to the point where their only option was negotiation (details of the agreements are in the article). Even though Skanderbeg lost Dagnum, he gained what he really wanted: recognition from Venice as a political force. Carl von Clausewitz said that war was a means to achieve political ends and this is what Skanderbeg did. Had he wanted to, he could have taken all of the Venetian cities on the Albanian coastline (since they were on the point of surrender), but his brilliant wisdom -- something which neutrality prohibits me from explicitly stating in this article -- told him that he did not need these cities; it would have only incurred Venice's wrath which was supported by its never-ending wealth. Furthermore, he would need to maintain them, something which his treasury could not allow. And losing Svetigrad was a sacrifice to maintain Kruja, a much more important fortress. If his men hadn't made a stand at Svetigrad, Murad would have marched right into Kruja which was not ready for battle. Thermopylae had a similar strategic purpose and the Greeks won the war against Persia. The Turks, however, kept pouring into Albania, but Skanderbeg was able to hold out for twenty more years. Anyways, this was not an integral part of the Venetian War and the Ottoman Empire never openly made an alliance with Venice (which is why I split the two belligerents in the infobox). Schmitt, despite his many questions, maintains that Skanderbeg was a military genius of the highest caliber. He questions Skanderbeg's heroism, but he never questions his ability to lead men. Therefore, saying that Skanderbeg lost this war because he lost some fortresses would mean that we are ignoring the greater strategic perspective which is of much higher importance. Skanderbeg got what he wanted and had Venetia Albania on its knees. It's safe to say that the Turks won the siege of Svetigrad, however.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:16, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
- I find the info boxes very useful, if properly created. I think that the peace treaty is not the result of the war because the war is ended with the peace treaty. The result of the war section in the info box should show who won the war. Skanderbeg declared war on Venice in order to capture Dagnum. He not only failed to capture Dagnum, but he additionally lost Balsha fortress to Venice and extremely important Svetigrad town to Ottoman Empire that joined Venice and even remained in war with Skanderbeg even after peace treaty with Venice was signed. I think that this is school example of lost war and that should be clearly stated in the appropriate section of the infobox. Besides results section, the section about territorial changes still does not mention important loss of Balsha fortress to Venice and much more important loss of Svetigrad to Ottoman Empire. Also, I am sorry but I really do not understand what "lands on the Albanian side of the Drin river are relinquished to the League of Lezhë" really means.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:11, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Alright, let me give you the whole context of what Schmitt says:
- Skanderbeg fought the Drin battle and won Dagnum back. Skanderbeg tried to unite with the leaders of Zeta, but his men (some highlanders/shepherds) lost a battle in Montenegro -- something which Kristo Frashëri says is false. Then he talks about how Andrea Venier tried to negotiate a peace with Skanderbeg, something which would result in Venice's official handover of Dagnum. Then he says that even though he had defeated Venice, Murad still began his march. (He never discusses the battle of Oronichea.) He then talks about the siege of Svetigrad. Then he talks about how Skanderbeg besieged Durazzo and laid waste to the Scutari countryside and hundreds died. Then he signed a peace where he gave Dagnum back and gained everything on the Albanian side of the Drin.
There are historians who say this was a victory. But to be honest, I don't really care if this was a victory or not, but to say that it is a loss is a stretch. I tried to establish WP:CON earlier by taking out the Albanian victory part. Do you agree?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:57, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with present formulation in the result field of infobox, since it looks that any other can hardly be supported with the clear non-contextualised inline citation.
- But the territorial changes field still hide the information about Skanderbeg's loss of Balsha and Svetigrad that happened during this war. Also, it still contains formulation: "lands on the Albanian side of the Drin river are relinquished to the League of Lezhë" which I honestly do not understand, and I believe that it is misleading and vague. I propose to add information about Skanerbeg's loss of Balsha and Svetigrad and to include better definition of his territorial gains. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:28, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- I searched works of Schmitt available online. Here I found his work: “Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479)”. In that work, on the page 306, Oliver Jens Schmitt describes peace treaty of Skanderbeg with Venetians as:
- “This was nothing but a disguised surrender Skanderbeg, who had lost within a few months its important allied, John Hunyadi, and his main stronghold, Svetigrad, and feared that sultan will attack Kruja.” - Dies war nichts anderes als eine versteckte Kapitulation Skanderbegs, der innerhalb von wenigen Monaten seinen wichtigsten Verbundeten, Johann Hunyadi, und seine wichtigste Festung, Svetigrad, verloren hatte und einen Angriff des sultans auf Kruja befürchtete.
- Any comment?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- This happened six months after the war ended. Besides, the Senate didn't accept it. Schmitt gives the same result for the war as the one in this article. Oktober 1448 schlossen Nikola Dukagjin und Skanderbeg mit Venedig Frieden.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- I do not understand German and Google translate says nothing about victory of Albanians, just that in "October 1448 and joined Nikola Dukagjin Skanderbeg peace with Venice." If "there are historians who say this was a victory" of Albanians, I think that we should stick to the sources and add that information to the infobox. But concerning that according to Wikipedia:Exceptional_claims#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources we should provide high-quality sources (neutral, contemporary, secondary, verifyable and reliable).
- Any comment on my proposal for territorial changes field to include information about Skanerbeg's loss of Balsha and Svetigrad and to include better definition of his territorial gains?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see anything too wrong with including Balsha loss, but it was a relatively insignificant fortress. And it was not included in the peace deal. As for Svetigrad, that was really another war. The only reason the battle of Oranik is included is because it was Venetian-requested whereas the assault on Svetigrad was ordered by Murad independently.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- This happened six months after the war ended. Besides, the Senate didn't accept it. Schmitt gives the same result for the war as the one in this article. Oktober 1448 schlossen Nikola Dukagjin und Skanderbeg mit Venedig Frieden.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- Any comment?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:19, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Modern neutral historian says that this war ended with peace treaty which was:“...nothing but a disguised surrender Skanderbeg, who had lost within a few months its important allied, John Hunyadi, and his main stronghold, Svetigrad, and feared that sultan will attack Kruja.” Skanderbeg started a war with Venice 6 months before the Siege of Svetigrad began. Albanian–Venetian War (1447–1448) obviously significantly contributed to loss of Svetigrad. There is no need to cite that sky is blue.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 06:56, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Again, you are misrepresenting the source. Like I said previously, this happened six months after the peace treaty with Venice was signed. Besides, this is Schmitt's interpretation and you are treating it as if it were the word of God.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:13, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Siege of Svetigrad (1448) was in period May 14 – July 31, 1448. It happened during this war, not “six months after the peace treaty with Venice was signed”. I am not misinterpreting the source. Like you wrote in this article: “peace was signed between the various representatives or princes of both parties on 4 October 1448.” --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are now misinterpreting what I said. The supposed "surrender" that Schmitt talks about happened six months after the war. I'm not talking about the siege of Svetigrad.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, I am not treating Schmitt's interpretations as if it were the word of God. It is you who claimed: "Well, even the most skeptical historians (Schmitt p. 90.) say Skanderbeg won this war." When I confronted you with your misinterpretation of the Schmitt's work, you started to talk about Sun Tzu. Now, when I presented the quote which proves that Schmitt did not say that "Skanderbeg won this war" but on the contrary, clearly said that his peace treaty with Venice was nothing but a disguised surrender you attacked me for misinterpretation of the source (again) and treating Schmitt's words “as if it were the word of God”.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- That doesn't help your argument any. Anyway, the "surrender" Schmitt talks about is referring to Skanderbeg's request to the Senate on 21 April 1449, not the peace treaty in 4 October 1448. I can't find the full page, but this is the closest I can get. Look at both links: [1] and [2].--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, I think you are wrong. Please look at the links you provided. They contain full page 306.
- What Schmitt said is that George Arianiti after this war allied with Venice and started dispute with Skanderbeg. He described that situation as "additional severe blow to Skanderbeg" (Ein schwerer schlag für Skanderbeg war auch ...). When Schmitt wrote about Skanderbeg's surrender (Kapitulation Skanderbegs without quotation marks) he clearly referred to losses that happened during and because of his war with Venice (loss of his important ally (Hunyadi) because of Skanderbeg's failure to support him in second Kosovo Battle, lost peace with Ottoman Empire and loss of Svetigrad). If you add the facts that Skanderbeg failed to capture Venetian towns he seized (Bar, Durres, Dagnum...), lost his important ally Arianiti (who allied with Venice) and lost Balsha fortress, it is obvious that Skanderbeg lost the war. Schmitt referred to "Skanderbeg's request to the Senate on 21 April 1449" only as "additional severe blow to Skanderbeg", which was described as only one of many reasons for Kapitulation Skanderbegs.
- In the same work (p. 306) Schmitt also wrote that Skanderbeg offered to pay for Venetian protectorate (!) ("Skanderbeg bat um eine Venezianische Schutzherrschaft und bot dafür 6000 dukaten,...").
- I believe that it is absurd to claim that Skanderbeg was victorious in this war and brought himself in position to beg for Venetian protectorate, even to offer to pay for it.
- Anyway, I will really do my best to assume good faith and to believe that you told the truth what you said: "There are historians who say this was a victory." Will you please be so kind to provide sources for your statement?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- That doesn't help your argument any. Anyway, the "surrender" Schmitt talks about is referring to Skanderbeg's request to the Senate on 21 April 1449, not the peace treaty in 4 October 1448. I can't find the full page, but this is the closest I can get. Look at both links: [1] and [2].--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:31, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- No, I am not treating Schmitt's interpretations as if it were the word of God. It is you who claimed: "Well, even the most skeptical historians (Schmitt p. 90.) say Skanderbeg won this war." When I confronted you with your misinterpretation of the Schmitt's work, you started to talk about Sun Tzu. Now, when I presented the quote which proves that Schmitt did not say that "Skanderbeg won this war" but on the contrary, clearly said that his peace treaty with Venice was nothing but a disguised surrender you attacked me for misinterpretation of the source (again) and treating Schmitt's words “as if it were the word of God”.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are now misinterpreting what I said. The supposed "surrender" that Schmitt talks about happened six months after the war. I'm not talking about the siege of Svetigrad.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Siege of Svetigrad (1448) was in period May 14 – July 31, 1448. It happened during this war, not “six months after the peace treaty with Venice was signed”. I am not misinterpreting the source. Like you wrote in this article: “peace was signed between the various representatives or princes of both parties on 4 October 1448.” --Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
Georg Branković and Stefan Crnojević united with Skanderbeg against Venetian Empire in the spring of 1448
The same source says:
"Skanderbeg raids against Venetian Albania in 1447 failed. More promising was the major attack in alliance with Alfonso V who united Balkan men in the spring of 1448: Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević and Skanderbeg appeared with a strong army before the Venetian cities." Skanderbegs Vorstösse gegen Venezianisch - Albanien im jahre 1447 scheiterten. Erfolgversprechender war der Grossangriff der im Bündnis mit Alfons V geeinten balkanischen Herren im Fruhjahr 1448:Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević und Skanderbeg erschienen mit starken heeren vor den venezianischen Stadten.
Why this article does not mention failure of Skanderbeg's raids in 1447?
Why this article hide the information that Branković and Crnojević were united with Skanderbeg?
Considering that Branković was not member of League of Lezhe, and that Zacharia was killed by Dukagjini with Dagnum and Balsha belonging to Venice, is it correct to state that one of the belligerents was League of Lezhe?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- What happened to assuming good faith, one of the goals of the Albanian-Serbian cooperation board? The sources I used just didn't mention it. I'll check up on them then. Just don't assume that we're hiding information.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- I am sorry. I used wrong expression (hide) which was related to the article not the editors.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:01, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- “Just don't assume that we're hiding information.” Who are WE?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- What do you think about the map?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- Well, this article deals with Skanderbeg's war against Venice and not with Brankovic's. Perhaps a mention would be useful and a new article be created about it, but it shouldn't be dealt with in too much detail here. As for Brankovic and Crnojevic uniting with Skanderbeg, I can't find that in any sources and from the documents provided by Kristo Frasheri, there seems to be little to no correspondence. According to Schmitt, this alliance of sorts (I use the term loosely) was supposed to happen in 1447 when Skanderbeg supposedly tried to assault Bar. However, the source which he got this from is considered dubious by Kristo Frasheri and he has said that it should be ignored until a more reliable one is found.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- “ this alliance of sorts (I use the term loosely) was supposed to happen in 1447 when Skanderbeg supposedly tried to assault Bar.” You contradict yourself. If you found source that Crnojević and Branković allied with Skanderbeg and jointly attacked Venice, why did you say: “As for Brankovic and Crnojevic uniting with Skanderbeg, I can't find that in any sources”?
- Schmitt, Oliver Jens (2001), Das venezianische Albanien (1392-1479) (in German), München: R. Oldenbourg Verlag GmbH München, ISBN 3-486-56569--9,
Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević und Skanderbeg erschienen mit starken heeren vor den venezianischen Stadten (Georg Branković, Stefan Crnojević and Skanderbeg appeared with a strong army before the Venetian cities)
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ignored (help)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:12, 3 May 2011 (UTC)- Please read what I said.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century ... By John Van Antwerp Fine support what Schmitt wrote about participation of Branković and Crnojević in attacks on Albanian. I think it is wrong and against WP:NPOV to present information about Ottoman Empire's participation in this war and
hidenot to present information about participation of Serbian Despotate in this war. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
- The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century ... By John Van Antwerp Fine support what Schmitt wrote about participation of Branković and Crnojević in attacks on Albanian. I think it is wrong and against WP:NPOV to present information about Ottoman Empire's participation in this war and
- Please read what I said.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:38, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, this article deals with Skanderbeg's war against Venice and not with Brankovic's. Perhaps a mention would be useful and a new article be created about it, but it shouldn't be dealt with in too much detail here. As for Brankovic and Crnojevic uniting with Skanderbeg, I can't find that in any sources and from the documents provided by Kristo Frasheri, there seems to be little to no correspondence. According to Schmitt, this alliance of sorts (I use the term loosely) was supposed to happen in 1447 when Skanderbeg supposedly tried to assault Bar. However, the source which he got this from is considered dubious by Kristo Frasheri and he has said that it should be ignored until a more reliable one is found.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:43, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
- What do you think about the map?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- “Just don't assume that we're hiding information.” Who are WE?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am sorry. I used wrong expression (hide) which was related to the article not the editors.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:01, 31 January 2011 (UTC)